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THE  UNIVERSITY 


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OF  ILLINOIS 
LIBRARY 


The   person   charging   this   material    is   rt 
snons  ble  tor  its  return  to  the  hbraiy  Iron. 
Xh  it  was  withdrawn  on  or  before  the 
Latest  Date  stamped  below. 

Theff,  mutilation,  and  underlining  of  books 

are  reasons  for  disciplinary  action  and  may 

result  in  dismissal  from  the  University. 

^r     ,,iiKir.i<;     IIBRARY    AT    URBANA-CHAMPAIGN 
UNIVERSITY    OF     ILLINOIS     LIBKAKT 


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L161  — O-1096 


vV 


A 


PROCEEDINGS 


ARBITRATION 


BETWEEN  THE 


WESTERN  RAILROADS 


AND  THE 


BROTHERHOOD   OF   LOCOMOTIVE 

ENGINEERS 


AND  THE 


BROTHERHOOD   OF   LOCOMOTIVE 
FIREMEN  AND  ENGINEMEN 


Submitted  to  Arbitration,  under  the  Act  of  July  15,  1913 
By  Agreement  Dated  August  3,  1914 


CHICAGO,  ILLINOIS 

Nov.  30-Dec.  10,  1914 
Testimony  Nos.  1-9  Pages  1-890 


Vol.  1 


LAW  REPORTING  CO.,  OFFICIAL  REPORTERS 

115  Broadway,  New  York.  1101  Ashland  Block,  ChicasTO 


LIST  OF  WITNESSES. 

Witness  Date  Page 

M.  W.  Cadle Nov.  30  47 

Cross  Examination Dec.     3  193 

Ke-direct        ''         ''        4  328 

Walter  D.  Moore Dec.     1  104 

Cross  Examination ''        1  146 

Ee-direct        ''         ''        1  167 

Ee-cross         ''         "        1  '172 

Ee-direct        ''         "        1  174 

W.  S.  Carter Dec.     3  345 

Cross  Examination "        4  384 

Ee-direct        ''          "        4  419 

Eecalled  "        7  469 

Cross  Examination "        7  559 

Ee-direct        "         "        8  603 

Ee-cross         ''         ''        8  658 

Ee-direct        "         "        9  698 

Ee-cross         "          ''        9  736 

Ee-direct        ''          "        9  744 

Samuel  T.   Steinberger Dec.     4  424 

Cross  Examination ''4  450 

Ee-direct        ''         ''        4  456 

Ee-cross         ''         "        4  465 

Ee-direct        '' "        4  466 

John  C.  Goulding Dec.  10  766 

Cross  Examination '^      10  776 

Ee-direct        "          ''10  779 

A.  Skog Dec.  10  785 

Cross  Examination "      10  790 

Ee-direct        "         "10  795 

Ee-cross         "         "10  796 

Ee-direct        " "10  798 

Ee-cross         "         "10  801 

J.  J.  Burns Dec.  10  814 

Cross  Examination "      10  822 


304'3!H 


11 


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Carter Dec. 


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»v 


AN  ACT 

Providing  for  Mediation,  Conciliation,   and  Arbitration  in  Contro- 
versies Between  Certain  Employers  and  Their  Employees 

Be  it  enacted  by  the  Senate  and  House  of  Representatives 
of  the  United  States  of  America  in  Congress  assembled,  That 
the  provisions  of  this  Act  shall  apply  to  any  common  carrier  or 
carriers  and  their  officers,  agents,  and  employees,  except  masters 
of  vessels  and  seamen,  as  defined  in  section  forty-six  hundred 
and  twelve,  Revised  Statutes  of  the  United  States,  engaged  in 
the  transportation  of  passengers  or  property  wholly  by  rail- 
road, or  partly  by  railroad  and  partly  by  water,  for  a  continuous 
carriage  or  shipment  from  one  State  or  Territory  of  the  United 
States  or  the  District  of  Columbia  to  any  other  State  or  Terri- 
tory of  the  United  States  or  the  District  of  Columbia,  or  from 
any  place  in  the  United  States  to  an  adjacent  foreign  country, 
or  from  any  place  in  the  United  States  through  a  foreign  coun- 
try to  any  other  place  in  the  United  States. 

The  term  ''railroad"  as  used  in  this  Act  shall  include  all 
bridges  and  ferries  used  or  operated  in  connection  with  any 
railroad,  and  also  all  the  road  in  use  by  any  corporation  operat- 
ing a  railroad,  whether  owned  or  operated  under  a  contract, 
agreement,  or  lease ;  and  the  term  ' '  transportation ' '  shall  include 
all  instrumentalities  of  shipment  or  carriage. 

The  term  "employees"  as  used  in  this  Act  shall  include  all 
persons  actually  engaged  in  any  capacity  in  train  operation  or 
train  service  of  any  description,  and  notwithstanding  that  the 
cars  upon  or  in  which  they  are  employed  may  be  held  and 
operated  by  the  carrier  under  lease  or  other  contract:  Pro- 
vided, however.  That  this  Act  shall  not  be  held  to  apply  to 
employees  of  street  railroads  and  shall  apply  only  to  employees 
engaged  in  railroad  train  service.  In  every  such  case  the  car- 
rier shall  be  responsible  for  the  acts  and  defaults  of  such 
employees  iii  the  same  manner  and  to  the  same  extent  as  if 
said  cars  were  owned  by  it  and  said  employees  directly  employed 
by  it,  and  any  provisions  to  the  contrary  of  any  such  lease  or 
other  contract   shall  be  lunding  only  as  between  the  parties 


thereto  and  shall  not  affect  tlie  obli^yations  of  said  carrier  either 
to  tlie  j)ublic  or  to  the  jirivate  ])arties  concerned. 

A  eonnnon  carrier  sul),iect  to  the  provisions  of  this  Act  is 
hereinafter  referred  to  as  an  *'eni])loyer,"  and  the  enijiloyees 
of  one  or  more  of  siicli  carriers  arc  liereinafter  referred  to  as 
"(Mnployees." 

Sk(\  2.  That  whenever  a  controversy  concernin<>-  waives,  hours 
of  labor,  or  conditions  of  em])loynient  shall  arise  between  an 
employer  or  emi)loyers  and  employees  subject  to  this  Act  inter- 
ruptini>-  or  threatenini^'  to  interrupt  the  business  of  said  employer 
or  employers  to  the  serious  detriment  of  the  public  interest, 
either  ])arty  to  such  controversy  may  apply  to  the  Board  of 
Mediation  and  Conciliation  created  by  this  Act  and  invoke  its 
services  for  the  purj^ose  of  l)ringing-  about  an  amicable  adjust- 
ment of  the  controversy;  and  u])on  the  request  of  either  party 
the  said  board  shall  with  all  ])racticable  expedition  put  itself  in 
connnunication  with  the  parties  to  such  controversy  and  shall 
use  its  best  efforts,  by  mediation  and  conciliation,  to  bring  them 
to  an  agreement ;  and  if  such  efforts  to  bring  about  an  amicable 
adjustment  through  mediation  and  conciliation  shall  be  unsuc- 
cessful, the  said  board  shall  at  once  endeavor  to  induce  the  par- 
ties to  submit  their  controversy  to  arbitration  in  accordance 
with  the  provisions  of  this  Act. 

In  any  case  in  which  an  interru])tion  of  traffic  is  imminent 
and  fraught  with  serious  detriment  to  the  public  interest,  the 
Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation  may,  if  in  its  judgment 
such  action  seem  desirable,  proffer  its  services  to  the  respective 
])arties  to  the  controversy. 

In  any  case  in  which  a  controversy  arises  over  the  meaning 
or  the  application  of  any  agreement  reached  through  mediation 
under  the  ])rovisions  of  this  Act  either  ])arty  to  the  said  agree- 
ment may  apply  to  the  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation  for 
an  exi)ression  of  o]union  from  such  board  as  to  the  meaning 
or  application  of  such  agreement  and  the  said  board  shall  upon 
receii)t  of  such  request  give  its  oi)inion  as  soon  as  may  be  ]irac- 
ticable. 

Sec.  3.  That  whenever  a  controversy  shall  arise  between  an 
em]>loyer  or  employers  and  em]^loyees  subject  to  this  Act,  which 
can  not  be  settled  through  mediation  and  conciliation  in  the 
manner  provided  in  the  preceding  section,  such  controversy  may 


3 

be  submitted  to  the  arbitration  of  a  board  of  six,  or,  if  the  par- 
ties to  the  controversy  prefer  so  to  stipulate,  to  a  board  of  three 
persons,  which  board  shall  be  chosen  in  the  following  manner: 
In  the  case  of  a  board  of  three,  the  employer  or  employers  and 
the  employees,  parties  resi)ectively  to  the  agreement  to  arbi- 
trate, shall  each  name  one  arbitrator;  and  the  two  arbitrators 
thus  chosen  shall  select  the  third  arbitrator;  but  in  the  event 
of  their  failure  to  name  the  third  arbitrator  within  five  days 
after  their  first  meeting,  such  third  arbitrator  shall  be  named 
by  the  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation.  In  the  case  of  a 
board  of  six,  the  employer  or  employers  and  the  employees, 
parties  respectively  to  the  agreement  to  arbitrate,  shall  each 
name  two  arbitrators,  and  the  four  arbitrators  thus  chosen  shall, 
by  a  majority  vote,  select  the  remaining  two  arbitrators;  but 
in  the  event  of  their  failure  to  name  the  two  arbitrators  within 
fifteen  days  after  their  first  meeting  the  said  two  arbitrators, 
or  as  many  of  them  as  have  not  been  named,  shall  be  named  by 
the  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation. 

In  the  event  that  the  employees  engaged  in  any  given  con- 
troversy are  not  members  of  a  labor  organization,  such  em- 
ployees may  select  a  committee  which  shall  have  the  right  to 
name  the  arbitrator,  or  the  arbitrators,  who  are  to  be  named  by 
the  emploj^ees  as  provided  above  in  this  section. 

Sec.  4.  That  the  agreement  to  arbitrate — 

First.  Shall  be  in  writing; 

Second.  Shall  stipulate  that  the  arbitration  is  had  under  the 
provisions  of  this  Act ; 

Third.  Shall  state  whether  the  board  of  arbitration  is  to 
consist  of  three  or  six  members ; 

Fourth.  Shall  be  signed  by  dulj'^  accredited  representatives 
of  the  emploj'er  or  employers  and  of  the  employees ; 

Fifth.  Shall  state  specifically  the  questions  to  be  submitted 
to  the  said  board  for  decision ; 

Sixth.  Shall  stipulate  that  a  majority  of  said  board  shall 
be  competent  to  make  a  valid  and  binding  award ; 

Seventh.  Shall  fix  a  period  from  the  date  of  the  appoint- 
ment of  the  arbitrator  or  arbitrators  necessary  to  complete  the 
board,  as  pro\'ided  for  in  the  agreement,  within  which  the  said 
board  shall  commence  its  hearings ; 

Eighth.     Shall  fix  a  period  from  the  beginning  of  the  hear- 


4 

ings  within  which  the  said  board  sliali  make  and  file  its  award : 
Provided,  That  this  period  shall  be  thirty  days  unless  a  different 
period  be  agreed  to ; 

Ninth.  Shall  ])rovide  for  the  date  from  which  the  award 
shall  become  effective  and  shall  fix  the  period  during  which  the 
said  award  sliall  continue  in  force ; 

Tenth.  Shall  provide  that  the  respective  parties  to  the 
award  will  each  faithfully  execute  the  same; 

Elleventh.  Shall  ])rovide  that  the  award  and  the  papers 
and  proceedings,  including  the  testimony  relating  thereto,  certi- 
fied under  the  hands  of  the  arbitrators,  and  which  shall  have  the 
force  and  effect  of  a  bill  of  exceptions,  shall  be  filed  in  the  clerk's 
office  of  the  district  court  of  the  United  States  for  the  district 
wherein  the  contro^'ersy  arises  or  the  arbitration  is  entered  into, 
and  shall  be  final  and  conclusive  upon  the  parties  to  the  agree- 
ment unless  set  aside  for  error  of  law  apparent  on  the  record; 

Twelfth.  May  also  provide  that  any  difference  arising  as 
to  the  meaning  or  the  application  of  the  provisions  of  an  award 
made  by  a  board  of  arliitration  shall  be  referred  back  to  the 
same  board  or  to  a  sul)committee  of  such  board  for  a  ruling, 
which  ruling  shall  have  the  same  force  and  effect  as  the  original 
award;  and  if  anv  member  of  the  original  board  is  unable  or 
unwilling  to  serve  another  arlntrator  shall  be  named  in  the 
same  manner  as  such  original  member  was  named. 

Sec.  5.  That  for  the  purj^oses  of  this  Act  the  arbitrators 
herein  provided  for,  or  either  of  them,  shall  have  power  to  ad- 
minister oaths  and  affirmations,  sign  sul)poenas,  require  the  at- 
tendance and  testimony  of  witnesses  and  the  production  of  such 
books,  ]iapers,  contracts,  agreements,  and  documents  material 
to  a  just  determination  of  the  matters  under  investigation  as 
may  be  ordered  by  the  court;  and  may  invoke  the  aid  of  the 
United  States  courts  to  compel  witnesses  to  attend  and  testify 
and  to  i)roduce  such  books,  papers,  contracts,  agreements,  and 
documents  to  the  same  extent  and  under  the  same  conditions 
and  penalties  as  is  provided  for  in  the  Act  to  regulate  com- 
merce, approved  February  fourth,  eighteen  hundred  and  eighty- 
seven,  and  the  amendments  thereto. 

Sec.  6.  That  every  agreement  of  arbitration  under  tliis 
Act  shall  l)e  acknowledged  by  the  parties  thereto  before  a  notary 
public  or  a  clerk  of  the  district  or  the  circuit  court  of  appeals  of 


fj 


the  United  States,  or  before  a  member  of  the  Board  of  Mediation 
and  Conciliation,  the  members  of  which  are  hereby  authorized  to 
take  such  acknowledgments ;  and  when  so  acknowledged  shall  be 
delivered  to  a  member  of  said  board  or  transmitted  to  said 
board  to  be  filed  in  its  office. 

When  such  agreement  of  arbitration  has  been  filed  with  the 
said  board,  or  one  of  its  members,  and  when  the  said  board,  or  a 
member  thereof,  has  been  furnished  the  names  of  the  arbitrators 
chosen  by  the  respective  parties  to  the  controversy,  the  board, 
or  a  member  thereof,  shall  cause  a  notice  in  writing  to  be  served 
upon  the  said  arbitrators,  notifying  them  of  their  appointment, 
requesting  them  to  meet  promptly  to  name  the  remaining  arbi- 
trator or  arbitrators  necessary  to  complete  the  board,  and  ad- 
vising them  of  the  period  within  which,  as  provided  in  the  agree- 
ment of  arbitration,  they  are  empowered  to  name  such  arbi- 
trator or  arbitrators. 

When  the  arbitrators  selected  by  the  respective  parties  have 
agreed  upon  the  remaining  arbitrator  or  arbitrators,  they  shall 
notify  the  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation;  and  in  the 
event  of  their  failure  to  agree  upon  any  or  upon  all  of  the 
necessary  arbitrators  within  the  period  fixed  by  this  Act  they 
shall,  at  the  expiration  of  such  period,  notify  the  Board  of 
Mediation  and  Conciliation  of  the  arbitrators  selected,  if  any, 
or  of  their  failure  to  make  or  to  complete  such  selection. 

If  the  parties  to  an  arbitration  desire  the  reconvening  of  a 
board  to  pass  upon  any  controversy  arising  over  the  meaning 
or  application  of  an  award,  they  shall  .jointly  so  notify  the 
Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation,  and  shall  state  in  such 
written  notice  the  question  or  questions  to  be  submitted  to  such 
reconvened  board.  The  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation 
shall  thereupon  promptly  communicate  with  the  members  of  the 
board  of  arbitration  or  a  subcommittee  of  such  board  appointed 
for  such  purpose  pursuant  to  the  provisions  of  the  agreement 
of  arbitration,  and  arrange  for  the  reconvening  of  said  board 
or  subcommittee,  and  shall  notify  the  respective  parties  to  the 
controversy  of  the  time  and  place  at  which  the  board  will  meet 
for  hearings  upon  the  matters  in  controversy  to  be  submitted 
to  it. 

Sec.  7.  That  the  board  of  arbitration  shall  organize  and 
select  its  own  chairman  and  make  all  necessary  rules  for  con- 


ducting  its  hearings ;  but  in  its  award  or  awards  the  said  board 
shall  confine  itself  to  findings  or  reconunendations  as  to  the 
questions  specifically  submitted  to  it  or  matters  directly  bearing 
thereon.  All  testimony  before  said  board  shall  be  given  under 
oath  or  affirmation,  and  any  member  of  the  board  of  arbitra- 
tion shall  have  the  poAver  to  administer  oaths  or  affirmations.  It 
may  employ  such  assistants  as  may  be  necessary  in  carrying  on 
its  work.  It  shall,  whenever  practicable,  be  supplied  Avith  suit- 
able quarters  in  any  Federal  building  located  at  its  place  of 
meeting  or  at  any  place  where  the  board  may  adjourn  iot  its 
deliberations.  The  board  of  arbitration  shall  furnish  a  certified 
copy  of  its  awards  to  the  respective  parties  to  the  controversy, 
and  shall  transmit  the  original,  together  with  the  papers  and 
proceedings  and  a  transcript  of  the  testimony  taken  at  the  hear- 
ings, certified  under  the  hands  of  the  arbitrators,  to  the  clerk 
of  the  district  court  of  the  United  States  for  the  district  wherein 
the  controversy  arose  or  the  arbitration  is  entered  into,  to  be 
filed  in  said  clerk's  office  as  provided  in  paragraph  eleven  of  sec- 
tion four  of  this  Act.  And  said  board  shall  also  furnish  a  certi- 
fied copy  of  its  award,  and  the  papers  and  proceedings,  includ- 
ing the  testimony  relating  thereto,  to  the  Board  of  Mediation 
and  Conciliation,  to  be  filed  in  its  office. 

The  United  States  Commerce  Court,  the  Interstate  Com- 
merce Commission,  and  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics  are  here- 
by authorized  to  turn  over  to  the  Board  of  Mediation  and  Con- 
ciliation upon  its  request  any  papers  and  documents  heretofore 
filed  with  them  and  bearing  upon  mediation  or  arbitration  pro- 
ceedings held  under  the  provisions  of  the  Act  approved  June 
first,  eighteen  hundred  and  ninety-eight,  providing  for  media- 
tion and  arbitration. 

Sec.  8.  That  the  award,  being  filed  in  the  clerk's  office  of 
a  district  court  of  the  United  States  as  hereinbefore  provided, 
shall  go  into  practical  operation,  and  judgment  shall  be  entered 
thereon  accordingly  at  the  expiration  of  ten  days  from  such 
filing,  unless  within  such  ten  days  either  party  shall  file  excep- 
tions thereto  for  matter  of  law  apparent  upon  the  record,  in 
which  case  said  award  shall  go  into  practical  operation,  and 
judgment  be  entered  accordingly,  when  such  exceptions  shall 
have  been  finally  disposed  of  either  by  said  district  court  or  on 
appeal  therefrom. 


»v 


At  the  expiration  of  ten  days  from  the  decision  of  the  dis- 
trict court  npon  exceptions  taken  to  said  award  as  aforesaid 
judgment  shall  be  entered  in  accordance  with  said  decision,  un- 
less during  said  ten  days  either  party  shall  appeal  therefrom  to 
the  circuit  court  of  appeals.  In  such  case  only  such  portion  of 
the  record  shall  be  transmitted  to  the  appellate  court  as  is  neces- 
sary to  the  proper  understanding  and  consideration  of  the  ques- 
tions of  law  presented  by  said  exceptions  and  to  be  decided. 

The  determination  of  said  circuit  court  of  appeals  upon 
said  questions  shall  be  final,  and,  being  certified  by  the  clerk 
thereof  to  said  district  court,  judgment  pursuant  thereto  shall 
thereupon  be  entered  by  said  district  court. 

If  exceptions  to  an  award  are  finally  sustained,  judgment 
shall  be  entered  setting  aside  the  award  in  whole  or  in  part ;  but 
in  such  case  the  parties  may  agree  upon  a  judgment  to  be  en- 
tered disposing  of  the  subject  matter  of  the  controversy,  which 
judgment  when  entered  shall  have  the  same  force  and  effect  as 
judgment  entered  upon  an  award. 

Nothing  in  this  Act  contained  shall  be  construed  to  require 
an  employee  to  render  personal  service  without  his  consent, 
and  no  injunction  or  other  legal  process  shall  be  issued  which 
shall  compel  the  performance  by  any  employee  against  his  Avill 
of  a  contract  for  personal  labor  or  service. 

Sec.  9.  That  whenever  receivers  appointed  by  a  Federal 
court  are  in  the  possession  and  control  of  the  business  of  em- 
ployers covered  by  this  Act  the  employees  of  such  employers 
shall  have  the  right  to  be  heard  through  their  representatives 
in  such  court  upon  all  questions  affecting  the  terms  and  condi- 
tions of  their  employment;  and  no  reduction  of  wages  shall  be 
made  by  such  receivers  without  the  authority  of  the  court  there- 
for, after  notice  to  such  employees,  said  notice  to  be  given  not 
less  than  twenty  days  before  the  hearing  upon  the  receivers' 
petition  or  application,  and  to  be  posted  upon  all  customary 
bulletin  boards  along  or  upon  the  railway  or  in  the  customary 
places  on  the  premises  of  other  employers  covered  by  this  Act. 

Sec.  10.  That  each  member  of  the  board  of  arbitration 
created  under  the  provisions  of  this  Act  shall  receive  such  com- 
pensation as  may  be  fixed  by  the  Board  of  Mediation  and  Con- 
ciliation, together  with  his  traveling  and  other  necessary  ex- 
penses.    The  sum  of  $25,000,  or  so  much  thereof  as  may  be 


necessary,  is  liereby  appropriated,  to  be  immediately  available 
and  to  continue  available  until  the  close  of  the  fiscal  year  end- 
ing June  thirtieth,  nineteen  hnndred  and  fourteen,  for  the  neces- 
sary and  proi)er  expenses  incurred  in  connection  with  any  arbi- 
tration or  with  the  carrying  on  of  the  work  of  mediation  and 
conciliation,  including  pei-  diem,  traveling,  and  other  necessary 
expenses  of  members  or  em])l()yees  of  boards  of  arbitration  and 
rent  in  the  District  of  Columbia,  furniture,  office  fixtures  and 
supplies,  books,  salaries,  traveling  expenses,  and  other  neces- 
sary expenses  of  members  or  employees  of  the  Board  of  Media- 
tion and  Conciliation,  to  be  approved  by  the  chairman  of  said 
board  and  audited  by  the  pro])er  accounting  officeis  of  tho 
Treasury. 

Sec.  11.  There  shall  be  a  Commissioner  of  Mediation  and 
Conciliation,  who  shall  be  appointed  by  the  President,  by  and 
with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,  and  whose  salary 
shall  be  $7,500  per  annum,  who  shall  hold  his  office  for  a  term  of 
seven  years  and  until  a  successor  qualifies,  and  who  shall  be 
removable  by  the  President  only  for  misconduct  in  office.  The 
President  shall  also  designate  not  more  than  two  other  officials 
of  the  Government  who  have  been  appointed  by  and  with  the 
advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,  and  the  officials  thus  desig- 
nated, together  with  the  Commissioner  of  Mediation  and  Con- 
ciliation, shall  constitute  a  board  to  be  known  as  the  United 
States  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation. 

There  shall  also  be  an  Assistant  Commissioner  of  Media- 
tion and  Conciliation,  who  shall  be  appointed  by  the  President, 
by  and  with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,  and  whose 
salary  shall  be  $5,000  per  annum.  Tn  the  absence  of  the  Com- 
missioner of  Mediation  and  Conciliation,  or  when  that  office 
shall  become  vacant,  the  assistant  commissioner  shall  exercise 
the  functions  and  perform  the  duties  of  that  office.  Under  the 
direction  of  the  Commissioner  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation, 
the  assistant  commissioner  shall  assist  in  the  work  of  mediation 
and  conciliation  and  when  acting  alone  in  any  case  he  shall  have 
the  right  to  take  acknowledgments,  receive  agreements  of  arbi- 
tration, and  cause  the  notices  in  writing  to  be  served  upon  the 
arbitrators  chosen  by  the  respective  parties  to  the  controversy, 
as  provided  for  in  section  five  of  this  Act. 

The  Act  of  June  first,  eighteen  hundred  and  ninety-eight. 


9 

relating-  to  the  mediation  and  aihitration  of  controversies  be- 
tween railway  companies  and  certain  classes  of  their  employees 
is  hereby  repealed:  Provided,  That  any  agreement  of  arbitra- 
tion which,  at  the  time  of  the  passage  of  this  Act,  shall  have 
been  executed  in  accordance  with  the  provisions  of  said  Act  of 
June  first,  eighteen  hundred  and  ninetj'-eight,  shall  be  gov- 
erned by  the  pro\'isions  of  said  Act  of  June  first,  eighteen  hun- 
dred and  ninety-eight,  and  the  proceedings  thereunder  shall  be 
conducted  in  accordance  with  the  provisions  of  said  Act. 
Approved,  July  15, 1913.    (Public  No.  6,  S.  2517.) 

City  of  Washington,  District  of  Columbia,  Aug.  3,  1914. 

ARBITRATION  AGREEMENT 

THIS  AGREEMENT,  made  and  entered  into  this  third 
day  of  August,  1914,  between  certain  Western  Railroads,  so- 
called,  a  list  of  which  is  hereto  annexed,  marked  "Exhibit  A" 
and  made  a  part  hereof,  and  which  railroads  are  represented 
by  a  Conference  Committee  of  Managers,  of  which  Mr.  A.  W. 
Trenholm  is  Chairman,  parties  of  the  first  part,  and  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers  and  the  Brotherhood  of 
Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen,  representing  the  engi- 
neers, firemen  and  hostlers  in  the  service  of  said  railroads, 
parties  of  the  second  part,  WITNESSETH: 

(1)  The  parties  hereto  mutually  agree  that  the  matters  in 
controversy  between  them,  as  hereinafter  stated,  shall  be  and 
are  hereby  submitted  to  arbitration  under  the  provisions  of 
an  Act  of  Congress,  approved  July  15,  1913,  entitled  "An  Act 
providing  for  mediation,  conciliation  and  arbitration  in  con- 
troversies between  certain  employers  and  their  employes."  ' 

(2)  That  there  shall  be  a  Board  of  Arbitration  consisting 
of  six  (6)  members,  to  be  named  and  selected  as  provided  in 
said  Act. 

(3)  That  the  questions  to  be  submitted  to  said  Board  for 
decision,  and  the  only  questions,  are  those  enumerated  and  set 
forth  in  the  communication  from  said  Brotherhoods  to  the 
Chairman  of  the  Association  of  Western  Railways  under  date 
of  October  10,  1913,  a  copy  of  which,  marked  "Exhibit  B,"  is 
hereto  annexed  and  made  a  part  hereof. 


10 

(4)  That  a  majority  of  said  Board  shall  be  competent  to 
make  a  valid  and  binding-  award. 

(5)  That  said  Board  shall  commence  its  hearings,  which 
shall  be  held  in  the  City  of  Chicago,  within  thirty  days  after  the 
appointment  of  the  arbitrator  or  arbitrators  necessary  to  com- 
plete the  Board  as  above  to  be  constituted. 

(6)  That  said  Board  shall  make  and  file  its  award  within 
ninety  days  from  the  beginning  of  its  hearings. 

(7)  That  the  award  made  by  said  Board  shall  become 
effective  at  the  expiration  of  ten  days  after  the  making  and 
filing  of  the  same,  and  shall  continue  in  force  for  one  year  from 
that  date  and  thereafter  subject  to  the  usual  thirty  days'  notice 
to  or  by  any  of  said  railroads;  but  such  notice  may  be  given 
before  the  expiration  of  said  year. 

(8)  That  the  respective  parties  hereto,  and  each  of  them, 
will  accept  the  award  of  said  Board  and  faithfully  execute  the 
same. 

(9)  That  the  award  and  the  papers  and  proceedings,  in- 
cluding the  testimony  relating  thereto,  certified  under  the  hands 
of  the  arbitrators,  and  which  shall  have  the  force  and  effect  of 
a  bill  of  exceptions,  shall  be  filed  in  the  Clerk's  office  of  the 
District  Court  of  the  United  States  for  the  Northern  District 
of  Illinois,  Eastern  Division,  and  shall  be  final  and  conclusive 
upon  the  parties  hereto  unless  set  aside  for  error  of  law 
apparent  on  the  record. 

(10)  That  any  difference  arising  as  to  the  meaning  or 
the  application  of  the  award  made  by  said  Board  shall  be 
referred  back  to  the  Board  for  a  ruling  thereon,  which  ruling 
shall  have  the  same  force  and  effect  as  the  original  award; 
and  both  parties,  at  the  request  of  either  of  them,  hereby  agree 
to  join  in  giving  notice  for  reconvening  said  Board  and  of  the 
question  or  questions  to  be  submitted  to  the  reconvened  Board. 
If  any  member  of  said  Board  is  unable  or  unwilling  to  serve, 
another  arbitrator  shall  be  named  in  the  same  manner  as  such 
member  was  originally  named.  And  to  promote  a  speedy  de- 
termination of  any  difference  arising  over  the  meaning  or 
application  of  said  award,  the  parties  of  the  first  part  hereby 
appoint  the  Chairman  of  the  Association  of  Western  Bailways 
for  the  time  being  as  their  agent  and  attorney  and  the  agent 


11 

and  attorney  of  each  of  them,  to  join  in  a  notice  to  the  Board 
of  Mediation  and  Conciliation  for  the  reconvening  of  said  Board 
of  Arbitration,  and  to  state  in  such  notice  the  question  or  ques^ 
tions  to  be  submitted  to  the  reconvened  Board;  and  the  parties 
of  the  second  part  hereby  appoint  the  Grand  Chief  of  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers  for  the  time  being  as 
the  agent  and  attorney  of  each  of  them  for  the  like  purpose. 

(11)  That  the  schedules,  rates,  rules  and  practices  re- 
lating to  wages  in  effect  October  10,  1913,  with  the  amendments 
thereto  and  accepted  rulings  thereon,  are  hereby  restored  and 
are  to  remain  in  full  force  and  effect  until  the  end  of  the  period 
covered  by  the  award,  except  as  modified  by  the  award,  and 
thereafter  until  changed  as  provided  in  the  individual  schedules. 

(12)  That  any  rates  of  pay,  including  excess  mileage  or 
arbitrary  differentials,  that  are  higher,  or  any  rules  or  condi- 
tions of  employment  contained  in  individual  schedules  in  effect 
October  10,  1913,  that  are  more  favorable  to  the  employes  than 
the  award  of  said  Board,  shall  not  be  modified  or  affected  by 
said  award. 

IN  WITNESS  WHEREOF,  this  agreement  has  been 
signed  on  behalf  of  the  parties  of  the  first  part  by  the  Chair- 
man of  the  Conference  Committee  of  Managers  above  named, 
duly  authorized  thereto,  and  on  behalf  of  the  parties  of  the 
second  part  by  W.  S.  Stone,  Grand  Chief  of  the  Brotherhood  of 
Locomotive  Engineers,  and  W.  S.  Carter,  President  of  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen,  the  day 
and  year  first  above  written. 

(Signed)     A.  W.  TRENHOLM, 

Chairman,  Conference  Committee  of  Managers. 

(Signed)     W.  S.  STONE, 
Grand  Chief,  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers. 

(Signed)     W.  S.  CARTER, 
President,  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen. 
DISTRICT  OF  COLUMBIA,  ss.  ^         -   ^     ■  «      « 

On  this  third  day  of  August,  1914,  before  me  personally 
appeared  A.  W.  Trenholm,  W.  S.  Stone,  and  W.  S.  Carter,  to 
me  personally  known  to  be  the  persons  described  in  and  who 


12 

executed  the  foregoing  instrument,  and  severally  acknowledged 
the  execution  thereof. 

(Signed)     MARTIN  A.  KNAPP, 
Member  United  States  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation. 


EXHIBIT  "A" 

LIST  OF  ROADS  REPRESENTED 
Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  Ry. — Eastern  Lines. 
Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  Ry. — Western  Lines. 

Southern  Kansas  Ry.  of  Texas. 

Pecos  &  Northern  Texas  Ry. 

Pecos  River  R.  R. 

Rio  Grande  &  El  Paso  R.  R. 
Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  Ry. — Coast  Lines. 

Grand  Canyon  Ry. 
A.  T.  &  S.  F.  Ry. — Santa  Fe,  Prescott  &  Phoenix  Lines. 
Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe  Ry. 

Texas  &  Gulf  Railway. 

Gulf  &  Interstate  Ry.  of  Texas. 

Concho,  San  Saba  &  Llano  Valley  R.  R. 
Baltimore  &  Ohio  Chicago  Terminal  R.  R. 
Belt  Ry.  of  Chicago  (Firemen  only). 
Canadian  Northern  Railway. 

Duluth,  Winnipeg  &  Pacific  Ry. 
Canadian  Pacific  Ry. — Lines  West  of  Fort  William. 
Chicago  &  Alton  Railroad. 
Chicago  &  North  Western  Ry. 

Pierre  &  Fort  Pierre  Bridge  Ry. 

Pierre,  Rapid  City  &  Northwestern  R.  R. 

Wyoming  &  Northwestern  Ry. 
Chicago  &  Western  Indiana  R.  R.  (Firemen  only). 
Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  R.  R. 
Chicago,  Great  Western  R.  R. 
Chicago  Junction  Ry. 

Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul  Ry. — Eastern  Line^ 
Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul  Ry. — Puget  Sound  Lines. 

Bellingham  &  Northern  R.  R. 

Tacoma  Eastern  R.  R. 


13 

Chicago,  Eock  Island  &  Pacific  Ry. 

Chicago,  Eock  Island  &  Gulf  Ey. 
Colorado  &  Southern  Ey. 
Chicago,  St.  Paxil,  Minneapolis  &  Omaha  Ey. 
Davenport,  Eock  Island  &  North  Western  Ey. 
Denver  &  Eio  Grande  E.  E. 
DuLUTH,  South  Shore  &  Atlantic  Ey. 

Mineral  Eange  E.  E. 
El  Paso  &  Southwestern  Ey. 
Fort  Worth  Belt  Ey. 
Fort  Worth  &  Denver  City  Ey. 

Wichita  Valley  Ey. 
Great  Northern  Ey.  System. 
Illinois  Central  E.  E. 

Yazoo  &  Mississippi  Valley  Ey. 
International  &  Great  Northern  Ey. 
E^ANSAS  City,  Clinton  &  Springfield  Ey. 
Kansas  City  Southern  Ey. 

Texarkana  &  Ft.  Smith  Ey. 
Kansas  City  Terminal  Ey. 
Louisiana  &  Arkansas  Ey. 

Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  &  Sault  Sainte  Marie  Ey. 
Missouri  &  North  Arkansas  E.  E. 
Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas  Ey. 

Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas  Ey.  of  Texas. 

Beaumont  &  Great  Northern  E.  E. 

Texas  Central  E.  E. 

Wichita  Falls  Lines. 
Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf  Ey. 

Missouri  Pacific  Ey.  and  St.  Louis,  Iron  Mountain  &  South- 
ern Ey. 
Northern  Pacific  Ey. 

Oregon- Washington  E.  E.  &  Navigation  Co. 
Oregon  Short  Line  E.  E. 

St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco  E.  E.  (Except  Hostlers). 
New  Orleans;  Texas  &  Mexico  E.  E. 

Orange  &  Northwestern  E.  E. 

Beaumont,  Sour  Lake  &  Western  Ey. 
St.  Louis,  Brqwnsville  &  Mexico  Ey. 
St;  Ijouis,  San  Francisco  &  Texas  Ey. 

Fort  Worth  &  Eio  Grande  Ey. 


14 

St.  Louis  Southwestern  Ry. 

St.  Louis  Soiitliwestern  Ey.  of  Texas. 
San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass  Ry. 
San  Pedro,  Los  Angeles  &  Salt  Lake  R.  R. 
Southern  Pacific  Co. — Pacific  System. 
Sunset  Central  Lines  : 

Galveston,  Harrisbiirg  &  San  Antonio  Ry. 

Houston  &  Texas  Central  R.  R. 

Houston  East  &  West  Texas  Ry. 

Houston  &  Shreveport  R.  R. 

Texas  &  New  Orleans  R.  R. 

Morgan's  Louisiana  &  Texas  R.  R.  and  Steamship  Co. 

Louisiana  Western  R.  R. 
Spokane,  Portland  &  Seattle  Ry. 

Oregon  Trunk  Ry. 
Terminal  Railroad  Association  of  St.  Louis. 

St.  Louis  Merchants  Bridge  Terminal  Ry. 
Texas  &  Pacific  Ry. 

Denison  «&  Pacific  Suburban  Ry. 

Weatherford,  Mineral  Wells  &  N.  W.  Ry. 
Trinity  &  Brazos  Valley  Ry. 
Union  Pacific  R.  R. 
Union  Railway — Memphis. 
Union  Stock  Yards  of  Omaha. 

Wabash  Railroad — Lines  West  of  Detroit  &  Toledo. 
Western  Pacific  Ry. 
The  Wiggins  Ferry  Co. 


EXHIBIT  "B" 

LETTER  NO.  1. 

Chicago,  111.,  October  10,  1913. 
Mr.  W.  S.  Tinsman, 

Chairman,  Managers'  Association, 

Room  1863,  Transportation  Building, 
608  S.  Dearborn  St.,  Chicago,  111. 
Dear  Sir:    The  locomotive  engineers,  firemen  and  hostlers 
employed  on  the  roads  named  on  the  inclosed  list  have  instructed 


15 

us  to  present  to  you  the  inclosed  revision  of  the  present  sched- 
ules of  wages  and  working  conditions  of  locomotive  engineers, 
firemen  and  hostlers  operating  steam  or  other  motive  power. 

We  ask  that  you  take  this  matter  up  with  each  of  the  roads 
named,  and  ask  them  to  join  with  all  other  railway  managements 
in  the  western  territory  in  delegating  to  a  conference  committee 
of  managers  authority  to  represent  their  respective  roads  in  the 
conducting  of  joint  negotiations. 

We  desire  it  understood  that  all  rates,  rules  and  conditions 
not  affected  by  these  proposed  amendments  shall  remain  un- 
changed, but  will  be  subject  to  changes  through  negotiations  by 
the  proper  officials  and  committees,  as  in  the  past. 

We  request  that  all  lines  or  divisions  of  railway  owned, 
leased,  operated  or  controlled  by  the  roads  named  in  the  inclosed 
list  be  included  in  these  negotiations,  and  any  agreement  reached 
shall  apply  to  all  of  such  lines  of  railway. 

We  also  request  the  privilege  of  submitting  the  names  of 
other  roads  in  the  western  territory  as  fast  as  we  hear  from 
them. 

We  hope  all  roads  will  accept  the  notice  presented  to  them 
as  the  proper  notice  required  for  the  opening  of  existing  sched- 
ules for  amendment.  Yours  very  truly, 

(Signed)     W.  S.  STONE, 
Grand  Chief  Engineer,  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive 

Engineers,  1114  B.  of  L.  E.  Building,  Cleveland,  Ohio. 

(Signed)     W.  S.  CARTER, 

President,  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive   Firemen  and 
Enginemen,  Peoria,  111. 

ARTICLES 

SUBMITTED   BY   THE   WESTERN    ASSOCIATION    OF    THE   BROTHERHOOD    OF 
LOCOMOTIVE  ENGINEERS  AND  THE  BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCO- 
MOTIVE   FIREMEN    AND    ENGINEMEN. 

ARTICLE  I. 

BASIS  OF  A  day's  WORK. 

Passenger  Service. 

One  hundred  miles  or  less,  five  hours  or  less,  will  constitute 
a  day's  work  in  all  classes  of  passenger  service.  All  mileage  in 
excess  of  100  miles  shall  be  paid  for  pro  rata. 


16 

All  Other  Service  Except  Switching. 

One  hundred  miles  or  less,  10  hours  or  less,  will  constitute 
a  day's  work  in  all  classes  of  service  except  passenger  and 
switching  service.  All  mileage  in  excess  of  100  miles  shall  be 
paid  for  pro  rata.  Ten  miles'  run  will  be  the  equivalent  of  one 
hour's  service  performed,  or  vice  versa. 

OVERTIME  IN  ROAD  SERVICE, 

Passenger  Service. 

Overtime  in  passenger  service  will  be  computed  and  paid 
for  on  a  basis  of  twenty  miles  per  hour,  at  rate  for  each  class  of 
engine  used. 

All  Other  Road  Service. 

Overtime  in  all  other  service  except  passenger  and  switch- 
ing service  will  be  computed  on  a  basis  of  ten  miles  per  hour,  and 
paid  for  at  the  rate  of  15  miles  per  hour,  at  rate  for  each  class 
of  engine  used. 

All  overtime  will  be  computed  on  the  minute  basis. 

ARTICLE  XL 

RATES  OF  PAY. 

Passenger  Service. 

The  rate  in  passenger  serWce  on  locomotives  other  than  the 
Mallet  type  weighing  less  than : 

Engineers.       Firemen. 

80,000  lbs.  on  drivers  shall  be $4.50  |2.90 

80,000  lbs.  and  less  than  100,000  lbs.  on  drix-ers 4.60  .{.00 

100,000  lbs.  and  less  than  140,000  lbs.  on  drivers 4.80  a.]  5 

140,000  lbs.  and  less  than  170,000  lbs.  on  drivers 5.00  3.25 

170,000  lbs.  and  less  than  200,000  lbs.  on  drivers 5.15  .3.40 

200,000  lbs.  and  less  than  225,000  lbs.  on  drivers 5.35  3..50 

225,000  lbs.  and  less  than  250,000  lbs.  on  drivers 5.50  3.65 

250,000  lbs.  and   over  on  drivers 5.60  3.75 

In  all  classes  of  service  except  passenger  and  switching 
service  on  locomotives  other  than  Mallet  type  weighing  less 
than : 

Engineers.  Firemen, 

80,000  lbs.  on  drivers  shall  be $5.00  $3.25 

80,000  lbs.  and  less  than  100,000  lbs.  on  drivers 5.20  3.40 

100,000  lbs.  and  less  than  140,000  lbs.  on  drivers : 5.40  '     3.50 

140,000  lbs.  and  less  than  17U,U00  lbs.  on  drivers 5,60  3.65 

170,000  lbs.  and  less  than  200,000  lbs.  on  drivers 5.80  3,75 


.y 


17 

Engineers.  Firemen. 

200,000  lbs.  and  less  than  225,000  lbs.  on  drivers 6.10  4.00 

225,000  lbs.  and  less  than  250,000  lbs.  on  drivers 6.40  4.25 

250,000  lbs.  and  over  on  drivers 6.70  4.50 

Mallet  type  engines,  all  classes  of  service,  except  switching 
service,  weighing  less  than : 

Engineers.  Firemen. 

250,000  lbs.   on   drivers $7.50  $4.90 

250,000  lbs.  and  less  than  300,000  lbs.  on  drivers 7.75  5.10 

300,000  lbs.  and  less  than  400,000  lbs.  on  drivers 8.00  5.25 

400,'000  lbs.  and  over  on  drivers 8.25  5.50 

Pusher,  Helper,  Mine  Runs,  Work,  Wreck,  Belt  Line,  Transfer, 

and  All  Other  Unclassified  Service. 

Engineers  and  Firemen  on  Locomotives  in  pusher  and 
helper  service,  mine  runs,  work,  wreck,  belt  line  and  transfer 
service,  and  all  other  unclassified  service,  will  be  paid  through 
freight  rate  according  to  the  class  of  engine. 

Divisions  Where  Grade  Is  1.8%. 

On  all  divisions  where  grade  is  one  and  eight-tenths  per 
cent  or  over,  an  increase  of  ten  per  cent  over  Valley  rates  will 
be  paid. 

Narrow  Gauge  Locomotives. 

On  Roads  where  narrow-gauge  locomotives  are  in  service^ 
a  five  per  cent  increase  over  present  rates  in  effect  shall  be 
granted. 

Electric  Locomotives,  Electric  Either  Multiple  Unit  or  Single, 

Gasoline  or  Other  Service. 

Wherever  electric,  multiple  unit,  gasoline  or  other  service  is 
installed  as  a  substitute  for  steam,  or  is  now  in  operation  on 
any  railroad  parties  to  this  agreement  or  on  any  of  the  tracks 
operated  or  controlled  by  any  of  them  as  part  of  their  system, 
the  Locomotive  Engineers  and  Firemen  shall  have  the  right  to 
the  position  of  Motonnan  and  Helper,  respectively.  The  term 
''helper"  ^\\\\  be  understood  to  mean  the  second  man  employed 
on  electric  locomotives  or  other  power. 

Seniority  Rights;  Rules,  Hours  of  Service  and  Mileage. 

Seniority  rights  to  be  interchangeable.  Steam  rules,  hours 
of  service  and  mileage  to  apply  with  the  following  rates  of  pay: 


18 

Passenger  Service. 

Motorniaii.  Helper. 

20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less .$4..50  $3.35 

Over  20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  25,000  lbs 4.60  3.35 

Over  25.000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  30,000  lbs .  ..   4.70  3.35 

Over  30,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  35,000  lbs 4.80  3.35 

Over  35,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  40,000  lbs 4.90  3.35 

Over  40,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  45,000  lbs 5.00  3.35 

Over  45,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  50,000  lbs 5.15  3.35 

Over  50,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  55,000  lbs 5.35  3.35 

Over  55,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  60,000  lbs 5.50  3.35 

60,000  lbs.   tractive  power   and   over 5.60  '3.35 

All  Other  Service  Except  Passenger  and  Sivitching. 

Motorman.  Helper. 

20,000   lbs.   tractive  power   and   less $5.00  $3.75 

Over  20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  25,000  lbs 5.20  3.75 

Over  25,000  lbs.  tactive  power  and  less  than  30,000  lbs 5.30  3.75 

Over  30,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  35,000  lbs 5.40  3.75 

Over  35,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  40,000  lbs 5.60  3.75 

Over  40,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  45,000  lbs 5.80  3.75 

Over  45,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  50,000  lbs 6.00  3.75 

Over  50,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  55,000  lbs 6.20  3.75 

Over  55,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  60,000  lbs 6.40  3.75 

Over  60,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  65,000  lbs 6.60  3.75 

Over  65,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  70,000  lbs 6.80  3.75 

70,000  lbs.   tractive  power  and   over 7.00  3.75 

Sivitching  Service. 

Motorman.  Helper. 

20,000   lbs.   tractive  power  and   less $4.75  $3.10 

Over  20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  40,000  lbs 5.00  3.10 

Over  40,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  60,000  lbs 5.50  3.10 

60,000  lbs.   tractive  power  and   over 6.00  3.10 

ARTICLE  III. 

I,OCAL  OR  WAY  FREIGHT  SERVICE, 

Local  trains  are  way  freight  or  mixed  trains  whose  work 
is  the  loading  or  unloading  of  freight  or  doing  station  switching 
en  route. 

Engineers  and  Firemen  on  snch  trains  will  bo  paid  ten  per 
cent  increase  over  through  freight  rates. 

Additional  Pay. 

Through  or  irregular  freight  trains  doing  work  such  as 
loading  or  unloading  freight,  stock  or  company  material,  switch- 
ing at  stations,  spurs,  mines,  mills,  or  required  to  pick  up  or  set 
out  cars,  unless  cars  to  be  picked  up  are  first  out,  or  cars  to  be 


►V 


19 

set  out  are  switched  together  at  terminals,  or  doing  any  other 
similar  work,  shall  be  paid  for  same  at  overtime  rates  in  addi- 
tion to  time  or  mileage  made  on  the  trip. 

ARTICLE  IV. 

SWITCHING  SERVICE. 

Rates  of  Pay. 

Engineers.  Firemen. 

Engines  weighing  less  than  140,000  lbs.  on  drivers $4.75  $3.10 

Engines  weighing  140,000  lbs.  and  over  on  drivers 5.00  3.25 

Mallet  type  engines   6.00  4.00 

Engineers   and  Firemen  required  to  begin  service  other 

than  between  the  hours  of  6  a.  m.  and  8  a.  m.  will  be  paid  2  cents 

per  hour,  in  addition  to  above  rate. 

:  .  _^i 
Day's  Work. 

Ten  hours  or  less  will  constitute  a  day's  w^ork  in  switching 

service.    Time  to  be  computed  continuously,  all  over  ten  hours 

to  be  computed  and  paid  for  at  rate  of  time  and  one-half.    All 

overtime  to  be  computed  on  minute  basis. 

Meals. 

Switch  Engineers  and  Firemen  will  not  be  required  to  work 
longer  than  six  consecutive  hours  without  being  allowed  thirty 
minutes  undisturbed  for  meals. 

Road  Engines  Used. 

When  Road  Engines  are  used  in  yard  service,  road  rates 
will  apply. 

ARTICLE  V. 

PREPARATORY  TIME. 

Engineers  and  Firemen  in  all  classes  of  service  will  be 
allowed  thirty  minutes  as  preparatory  time  in  addition  to  all 
other  time  or  mileage  made  on  the  trip  or  day,  at  the  pro  rata 
rate  corresponding  with  class  of  locomotive  and  service;  pro- 
vided, that  on  lines  of  railroad  where  rules  or  schedules  require 
them  to  be  on  duty  more  than  thirty  minutes  before  time 
ordered  to  leave  roundhouse  or  other  point,  they  will  be  allowed 
one  hour's  time,  and  when  required  to  be  on  duty  more  than 
one  hour,  actual  time  will  be  allowed.  Preparatory  time  wdll  be 
the  time  Engineers  and  Firemen  are  required  to  be  on  their 


20 

locomotives,  prior  to  time  ordered  to  leave  roundhouse  or  other 
point. 

ARTICLE  VI. 

TERMINAL  DELAY. 

Passenger  Service. 

Initial  terminal  delay  for  Engineers  and  Firemen  in  pas- 
senger service  shall  begin  at  the  time  they  are  called  to  leave 
roundhouse  or  other  point  and  shall  end  upon  departure  of 
trains  from  passenger  depot. 

Final  terminal  delay  for  Engineers  and  Firemen  in  pas- 
senger service  shall  begin  at  the  time  they  arrive  at  passenger 
depot,  and  will  end  when  relieved  from  duty. 

Freight  Service. 

Initial  terminal  delay  in  freight  service  shall  begin  at  the 
time  Engineers  and  Firemen  are  called  to  leave  roundhouse  or 
other  point  and  shall  end  when  train  has  passed  from  yard  track 
or  lead  to  main  line,  and  actually  departs  from  the  terminal. 

Final  terminal  delay  in  freight  service  shall  begin  when 
train  arrives  at  switch  leading  from  main  line  into  yard,  and 
shall  end  when  Engineer  and  Fireman  are  relieved  from  duty; 
provided,  that  if  from  any  cause  trains  are  held  out  of  yard, 
final  terminal  delay  shall  begin. 

Minute  Basis. 

Engineers  and  Firemen  shall  be  paid  on  a  minute  basis  for 
all  terminal  delays  at  the  pro  rata  rate  for  the  class  of  engine 
used;  this  in  addition  to  all  time  or  mileage  made  on  the  trip. 

ARTICLE  VII. 

AUTOMATIC    RELEASE   AND    TIE-UP. 

Engineers  and  Firemen  arriving  at  terminal  or  end  of  run 
are  automatically  released;  when  used  again,  they  begin  a 
new  day. 

Continuous  Time. 

Engineers  and  Firemen  tied  up  between  their  terminals 
will  be  paid  continuous  time,  no  deductions  will  be  made  for 
time  tied  up. 

ARTICLE  VIII. 

HELD  AWAY  FROM   HOME  TERMINALS. 

Engineers  and  Firemen  held  at  other  than  home  terminal 


21 

(including  rest  period)  will  be  paid  continuous  time  for  all  time 
so  held,  after  the  expiration  of  15  hours  from  time  relieved 
from  previous  duty,  at  the  rate  per  hour  paid  for  the  last  service 
performed ;  less  than  one  hour  not  to  be  paid  for. 

ARTICLE  IX. 

DEADHEADING. 

Engineers  and  Firemen  deadheading  on  Company  business 
shall  be  paid  the  same  rate  and  on  the  same  basis  as  the  Engineer 
and  Fireman  on  the  train  on  which  deadheading.  Rules  in  indi- 
vidual schedules  governing  minimum  day  and  other  conditions 
to  apply. 

ARTICLE  X. 

HOSTLERS. 

At  points  where  an  average  of  six  or  more  locomotives  are 
handled  within  twelve  hours,  day  or  night,  hostlers  shall  be 
maintained. 

Positions,  How  Filled: 

Hostling  positions  shall  be  filled  from  the  ranks  of  the  Fire- 
men, and  they  shall  be  paid  $3.35  per  day  of  ten  hours  or  less ; 
provided,  that  where  Hostlers  are  required  to  make  main  line 
movements,  they  shall  be  paid  $4.75  per  day  of  ten  hours  or  less, 
overtime  in  each  case  to  be  computed  on  the  minute  basis  and 
paid  for  at  the  rate  of  time  and  one-half. 

When  such  main-line  or  road  Hostlers  are  paid  the  same 
rate  as  Engineers  in  switching  service,  such  position  shall  be 
filled  from  the  ranks  of  the  Engineers. 

Meal  Hour. 

Hostlers  shall  be  allowed  one  hour  for  meals  between  the 
hours  of  11:30  and  1:30,  day  or  night.  Hostlers  will  be  as- 
signed regular  meal  hour  between  the  hours  named  or  after 
being  on  duty  five  hours.  Should  Hostlers  be  required  to  remain 
on  duty  after  designated  meal  hour,  one  hour  will  be  allowed  as 
overtime.  No  Hostler  mil  be  required  to  remain  on  duty  longer 
than  six  hours  without  having  one  full  hour  for  meals. 

ARTICLE  XL 

SURPRISE    TESTS. 

That  the  practice  of  conducting  surprise  tests  by  turning 
switch  lights  and  placing  red  lights,  or  flags,  unaccompanied  bj'^ 


22 

torpedoes,  beside  track,  or  wiring  down  automatic  signals  to- 
proceed  position,  be  eliminated. 

ARTICLE  XII. 

ASSISTANCE  FOR  FIREMEN. 

On  all  locomotives  in  freight  service  where  but  one  Fireman 
is  employed,  and  on  all  locomotives  in  passenger  service,  coal 
will  be  kept  where  it  can  be  reached  by  the  Firemen  from  the 
deck  of  the  locomotive.  Coal  of  the  proper  size  for  firing  pur- 
poses vdW  be  placed  on  all  tenders. 

ARTICLE  XIII. 

TWO   FIREMEN. 

On  coal-burning  locomotives  weighing  185,000  pounds  or 
more  on  drivers,  when  used  in  freight  service,  two  Firemen  will 
be  emiDloyed. 

ARTICLE  XIV. 

MISCELLANEOUS. 

Cleaning  of  Locomotives. 

On  railroads  where  Firemen  are  required  to  clean  locomo- 
tives, they  shall  be  relieved  of  such  service. 

Setting  Up  Wedges,  Filling  Grease  Cups  and  Cleaning  Head- 
lights: 

Where  Engineers  and  Firemen  are  required  to  set  up 
wedges,  fill  grease  cups,  or  clean  headlights,  they  shall  be  re- 
lieved of  such  service  at  all  points  where  roundhouse,  or  shop 
force,  or  an  engine  watchman  is  employed. 

Placing  of  Supplies  on  Locomotives. 

Where  Engineers  and  Firemen  are  required  to  place  on  or 
remove  tools  or  supplies  from  locomotives,  fill  lubricators,  flange 
oilers,  headlights,  markers  or  other  lamps,  they  shall  be  relieved 
of  such  service  at  all  points  where  roundhouse,  shop  force,  or  an 
engine  watchman  is  employed. 

ARTICLE  XV. 

OFFICIAL  RECORD  OF  WEIGHTS  ON  DRIVTIRS. 

For  the  purpose  of  recording  weights  on  drivers,  each  rail- 
road, parties  to  this  agreement,  "will  permanently  post  bulletins 
at  all  terminals  sho\\'ing  accurate  service-weights  of  all  locomo- 
tives. 


^i- 


23 
ARTICLE  XVI. 

THROWING  SWITCHES  AND  FLAGGING. 

Engineers   and   Firemen   mil   not   be   required   to    throw 
switches,  flag  through  blocks,  or  fill  water  cars. 


NOTIFICATION  TO  U.  S.  BOARD  OF  MEDIATION  AND 
CONCILIATION  OF  SELECTION  OF  ARBITRATORS 
REPRESENTING  BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 
ENGINEERS  AND  BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 
FIREMEN  AND  ENGINEMEN. 

Chicago,  111.,  Aug.  10, 1914. 
Hon.  Martin  A.  Knapp, 
Hon.  William  L.  Chambers^ 
Hon.  G.  W.  W.  Hanger, 

Commissioners,  U.  S.  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation, 
Washington,  D.  C. 

Gentlemen : 

In  accordance  with  the  arbitration  agreement  signed  Au- 
gust 3,  1914,  between  the  Association  of  Western  Railways,  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers  and  the  Brotherhood  of 
Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen,  we  would  advise  that  the 
organizations  have  submitted  the  names  of  the  following  gentle- 
men to  act  as  their  representatives  on  the  Board  of  Arbitration : 
For  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers,  Mr.  F.  A. 
Burgess,  Assistant  Grand  Chief  Engineer,  Cleveland,  Ohio. 

For  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Engine- 
men,  Mr.  T.  Shea,  Assistant  President,  Brotherhood  of  Locomo- 
tive Firemen  and  Enginemen,  Peoria,  Illinois. 

We  understand  that  we  have  complied  with  the  require- 
ments of  the  law  when  we  give  you  this  official  notice,  and  take 
it  for  granted  that  you  will  notify  the  other  parties  to  the  arbi- 
tration agreement.       Yours  very  truly, 

(Signed)  W.  S.  STONE, 
Grand  Chief  Engineer, 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers, 
1116  B.  of  L.  E.  Building,  Cleveland,  Ohio. 
W.  S.  CARTER, 
President, 

Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen, 
Box  740,  Chicago,  111. 


24 

NOTIFICATION  TO  U.  S.  BOARD  OF  MEDIATION  AND 

CONCILIATION  OF  SRLECTION  OF  ARBITRATORS 

REPRESENTING  THE  WESTERN  RAILWAYS. 

August  11,  1914. 
To  the  United  States  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation, 
Hon.  Martin  A.  Knapp, 
Hon.  Wm.  L.  Chambers^ 
Hon.  G.  ^Y,  W.  Hanger, 

Members, 

AVashington,  D.  C. 

Gentlemen : 

The  railroads  represented  by  the  Conference  Committee  of 
Managers  of  which  the  undersigned  is  Chairman,  parties  of  the 
first  part  in  the  arbitration  agreement  dated  August  3,  1914, 
between  said  railroads  and  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  En- 
gineers and  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  En- 
ginemen  representing  the  engineers,  firemen  and  hostlers  iii  the 
service  of  said  railroads,  do  hereby  name  as  the  two  arbitrators 
whom  said  railroads  have  the  right  to  select  under  said  con- 
tract, Mr.  H.  E.  Byram,  Vice-President,  Chicago,  Burlington  & 
Quincy  Railroad,  and  Mr.  W.  L.  Park,  Vice-President,  Illinois 
Central  Railroad. 

By  order  of  the  Conference  Committee  of  Managers. 

(Signed)  A.  W.  TRENHOLM, 

Chairman. 


NOTIFICATION  TO  ARBITRATORS  SELECTED  BY  THE 
BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE  ENGINEERS, 
BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE  FIREMEN  AND 
ENGINEMEN,  AND  THE  WESTERN  RAILWAYS,  OF 
THE  RATIFICATION  AND  APPROVAL  OF  THEIR 
SELECTION  AND  CALLING  A  MEETING  FOR  THE 
SELECTION  OF  NEUTRAL  ARBITRATORS. 

August  15,  1914. 
Mr.  F.  a.  Burgess,  Assistant  Grand  Chief  Engineer, 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers, 
Cleveland,  Ohio. 


»^ 


25 

Mr.  T.  Shea,  Assistant  President, 

Brotlierliood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  &  Enginonien, 
Peoria,  111. 
Mr.  H.  E.  Byram,  Vice  President, 

Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  Eailroad, 
Chicago,  III. 
Mr.  W.  L.  Park,  Vice  President, 
Illinois  Central  Railroad, 
Chicago,  111. 

Gentlemen : 

The  United  States  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation 
has  been  informed  by  letter  dated  August  10th,  1914,  signed  by 
W.  S.  Stone,  Grand  Chief  Engineer,  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive 
Engineers,  and  W.  S.  Carter,  President,  Brotherhood  of  Loco- 
motive Firemen  and  Enginemen,  that  the  Brotherhood  of  Loco- 
motive Engineers  has  selected  Mr.  F.  A.  Burgess,  Assistant 
Grand  Chief  Engineer,  Cleveland,  Ohio,  and  the  Brotherhood  of 
Locomotive  Firemen  &  Enginemen  has  selected  Mr.  T.  Shea, 
Assistant  President,  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  & 
Enginemen,  as  the  representatives  of  the  two  Brotherhoods  as 
their  arbitrators  under  the  provisions  of  the  Act  of  Congress  of 
July  15th,  1913,  and  of  the  agreement  to  arbitrate  signed  by 
all  the  parties  dated  August  3rd,  1914.  The  Board  of  Media- 
tion is  also  informed  by  Mr.  A.  W.  Trenliolm,  Chairman  of  the 
Association  of  Western  Railways,  in  letter  under  date  of  August 
11th,  1914,  that  the  Conference  Committee  of  Managers,  repre- 
senting the  Association  of  Western  Railways,  has  selected  as 
Arbitrators  to  represent  the  Railroads  in  the  Arbitration  Mr. 
H.  E.  Byram,  Vice  President,  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy 
Railroad,  and  Mr.  W.  L,  Park,  Vice  President,  Illinois  Central 
Railroad. 

You  are  hereby  formally  notified  of  your  selection  as  above 
stated  and  your  selection  is  duly  ratified  and  approved  by  the 
United  States  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation,  and  you 
are  requested  to  assemble  at  such  place  in  the  city  of  Chicago 
as  may  be  most  convenient  to  you  at  10  o'clock  a.  m.,  Monday, 
August  24,  1914,  for  the  purpose  of  selecting  the  remaining 
arbitrators  to  complete  the  Board  as  required  by  said  Act  of 
Congress.     It  is  the  desire  of  this  Board  that  you  gentlemen 


26 

sliould  make  these  selections  and  if  necessary  exhaust  the  entire 
time  allowed  by  law — 15  days — for  that  purpose.  You  will 
l^lease  notify  the  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation  innnedi- 
ately  upon  making  your  selection,  and  in  case  you  should  fail 
to  do  so  you  will  kindly  withhold  the  notice  of  vour  failure  until 
the  expiration  of  the  time. 

Your  traveling  expenses  from  your  places  of  residence  to 
Chicago  and  return,  and  subsistence  (limited  by  law  now  to  $5 
per  day)  will  be  paid  upon  proper  vouchers  rendered  the  Board 
of  Mediation  and  Conciliation. 

The  railroads  and  employees  are  to  be  congratulated  upon 
the  selection  of  gentlemen  of  such  character  as  yourselves  for 
this  responsilile  service. 

Very  truly  yours, 

(Signed)     W.  L.  CHAMBERS, 

Commissioner. 

I  suggest  that  your  first  meeting  be  at  Congress  Hotel,  and 
afterwards  as  may  suit  your  convenience.    Kindly  advise  me. 

W.  L.  C. 


NOTIFICATION  TO  UNITED  STATES  BOARD  OF  MEDIA- 
TION AND  CONCILIATION  THAT  ARBITRATORS 
SELECTED  BY  THE  WESTERN  RAILWAYS,  THE 
BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE  ENGINEERS  AND 
THE  BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE  FIREMEN 
AND  ENGINEMEN  HAVE  BEEN  UNABLE  TO  AGREE 
IN  THE  SELECTION  OF  THE  REMAINING  ARBI- 
TRATORS. 

(Telegram.) 

Chicago,  September  8,  1914. 
To  Honorable  William  L.  Chambers, 

Commissioner  United  States  Board  Mediation  and  Concilia- 
tion, Southern  Building,  Washington,  D.  C. 
The  undersigned  appointed  by  the  railroads  and  the  organi- 
zations involved  in  the  western  wage  movement  of  the  Brother- 
hood of  Locomotive  Engineers  and  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive 
Firemen  and  Enginemen,  and  duly  ratified  and  approved  by 
the  United  States  Board  of  Mediation  and  Conciliation  as  arbi- 


»^ 


27 

trators  under  the  provisions  of  the  Act  of  Congress  of  July 
fifteenth,  nineteen  hundred  thirteen,  and  of  the  agreement  to 
arbitrate,  signed  by  all  of  the  parties  dated  August  third,  nine- 
teen hundred  fourteen,  beg  to  respectfully  report  that  they  have 
been  unable  to  agree  in  the  selection  of  the  remaining  arbitra- 
tors to  complete  the  Board  as  required  by  said  Act  of  Congress. 
Letter  confirming  this  telegram  with  further  details  mailed  you 
this  date. 

F.  A.  BURGESS, 
T.  SHEA, 
H.  E.  BYRAM, 
W.  L.  PARK. 


NOTIFICATION  OF  SELECTION  OF  NEUTRAL  ARBL 
TRATORS  BY  U.  S.  BOARD  OF  MEDIATION 
AND  CONCILIATION. 

November  21,  1914. 

In   the   Matter   of   the    Controversy   Between" 
Ninety-eight  Western  Associated  Railways 
AND  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engi- 
neers AND  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive 
Firemen  and  Enginemen  : 

The  parties  to  the  above-named  controversy  having  agreed 
to  submit  the  matters  in  dispute  between  them  to  arbitration 
under  and  in  pursuance  of  the  provisions  of  the  Act  approved 
July  15,  1913,  entitled  ''An  Act  providing  for  mediation,  con- 
ciliation and  arbitration  in  controversies  between  certain  em- 
ployers and  their  employees,"  and  having  executed  an  agree- 
ment in  writing  to  that  effect,  dated  August  3,  1914,  and  filed 
the  same  with  the  United  States  Board  of  Mediation  and  Con- 
ciliation created  by  said  Act,  which  agreement  provides  for  a 
Board  of  Arbitration  consisting  of  six  members;  and  the  Con- 
ference Committee  of  Managers  representing  the  railroads 
parties  to  the  controversy  having  named  as  arbitrators  on  the 
part  of  said  railroad  Mr.  H.  E.  Byram,  Vice  President  of  the 
Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  Railroad  Company,  and  Mr. 
W.  L.  Park,  Vice  President  of  the  Illinois  Central  Railroad 


28 

Company,  and  the  said  organizations  having  named  as  their 
arbitrators  Mr.  F.  A.  Burgess,  Assistant  Grand  Chief  Engineer 
of  the  Brotlierhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers,  and  Mr.  Timothy 
Shea,  Assistant  President  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive 
Firemen  and  Enginemen;  and  the  four  thus  named  having  met 
in  Chicago,  111.,  on  the  24th  day  of  August,  1914,  for  the  pur- 
pose of  selecting  the  remaining  arbitrators,  and  having  failed  to 
agree  upon  them  or  either  of  them  within  fifteen  days  there- 
after, and  having  thereupon  duly  notified  the  said  Board  of 
Mediation  and  Conciliation  of  such  failure ; 

NOW,  THEREFORE,  The  United  States  Board  of  Media- 
tion and  Conciliation,  by  virtue  of  the  authority  conferred  by 
said  Act,  does  hereby  name  and  appoint  as  the  remaining  arbi- 
trators Hon.  Jeter  C.  Pritchard,  of  Asheville,  North  Carolina, 
and  Hon.  Charles  Nagel,  of  St.  Louis,  Missouri,  who  together 
with  the  four  arbitrators  above  named  will  constitute  the  Board 
of  Arbitration  to  hear  and  determine  the  controversy  in  ques- 
-tion. 

U.  S.  BOARD  OF  MEDIATION  AND  CONCILIATION, 

(Signed)     By  Martin  A.  Knapp, 
(Signed)  W.  L.  Chambers, 

Members  of  Board. 


29 


IN   THE   MATTER  OF   THE 

ARBITRATION 
between  the 
WESTERN  RAILWAYS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 
ENGINEERS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD    OF    LOCOMOTIVE    FIRE- 
MEN AND  ENGINEMEN 
under  the  Act  approved  July  15,  1913,  by  agree- 
ment dated  August  3,  1914. 


Room  603  Federal  Building,  Chicago,  Illinois, 

November  30,  1914,     10  a.  m. 


Present — Jeter  C.  Pritchard,  Chairman, 
Charles  Nagel, 
H.  E.  Byram, 
W.  L.  Park, 
F.  A.  Burgess, 
Timothy  Shea_ 


Arbitrators. 


H.  S.  Milstead,  Secretary. 
Appearances. 

For  the  Conference  Committee  of  Managers — 

A.  W.  Trenholm  ((leneral  Manager,  Chicago,  St.  Paul,. 
Minneapolis  &  Omaha  Ry.  Co.),  Chairman, 

F.  C.  Batchelder,  President,  Baltimore  &  Ohio  Chicago 
Terminal  R.  R.  Co., 

P.  H.  MoRRissEY,  Assistant  to  the  Vice  President,  Chi- 
cago, Burlington  &  Quincy  R.  R.  Co., 

P.  C.  Hart,  General  Manager,  Chicago,  Milwaukee  & 
St.  Paul  Ry.  Co. — Eastern  Lines, 

D.  W.  Campbell,  Assistant  General  Manager,  Southern 
Pacific  Co. — Pacific  System, 


30 

J.  W.  HiGGiNs,  General  Manager,  Missouri  Pacific  Ry. 
Co.  and  St.  Louis,  Iron  Mountain  &  Southern  Ey., 

Grant  Hall,  General  Manager,  Canadian  Pacific  Ry. 
Co. — Lines  West  of  Fort  William, 

J.  H,  Keefe,  Assistant  General  Manager,  Gulf,  Colo- 
rado &  Santa  Fe  Ey.  Co., 

W.  S.  Martin,  General  Manager,  Denver  &  Eio  Grande 
E.  E.  Co., 

M.  J.  Buckley,  General  Superintendent,  Oregon- Wash- 
ington Eailroad  &  Navigation  Co., 

W.  J.  Tollerton,  General  Mechanical  Superintendent, 
Chicago,  Eock  Island  &  Pacific  Ey.  Co. 

H.  M.  Curry,  General  Mechanical  Superintendent, 
Northern  Pacific  Ey.  Co. 

James  M.  Sheean,  Counsel  for  the  Committee. 

For  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineer,'^ — 
W.  S.  Stone,  Grand  Chief  Engineer, 
M.  W.  Cadle,  Assistant  Grand  Chief  Engineer, 
Ash  Kennedy,  Assistant  Grand  Chief  Engineer, 
M.  E.  Montgomery,  Assistant  Grand  Chief  Engineer, 
E.  CoRRiGAN,  Assistant  Grand  Chief  Engineer. 

For  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen — 
W.  S.  Carter,  President, 
Albert  Phillips,  Vice  President. 

(All  the  members  of  the  Board  of  Arbitration  met  in  con- 
ference to  organize  and  elect  officers,  and  at  11:30  a.  m.  the 
first  public  session  of  the  Board  was  opened.) 

The  Chairman:  The  Board  met  in  conference  and  organ- 
ized by  electing  Jeter  C.  Pritchard,  U.  S.  Circuit  Judge  for 
Fourth  Circuit,  of  Asheville,  North  Carolina,  one  of  the  neutral 
arbitrators,  as  Chairman,  and  selected  Mr.  H.  S.  Milstead,  of 
Washington,  D.  C,  as  Secretary  to  the  Board,  and  Mr.  AVilliam 
A.  Britt,  of  Asheville,  North  Carolina,  as  Assistant  Secretary 
to  the  Board,  and  designated  George  Lewis,  of  Chicago,  Illinois, 
as  Messenger  to  the  Board. 

The  Board  agreed  to  the  following  hours  for  sessions : 
Morning  session  to  l)egin  at  10  A.  M.  and  continue  until  12:30 
P.  M. ;  recess  will  be  taken  at  that  hour  until  2  P.  M. ;  afternoon 


rV 


31 

session  will  begin  at  2  P.  M,  and  continue  until  5  P.  M,  At  the 
beginning  of  the  sessions,  the  Board  will  sit  five  days  in  the 
week — from  Monday  until  Friday,  inclusive.  The  official  stenog- 
raphers are  requested  to  make  a  part  of  the  record  a  copy  of 
the  Act  of  July  15,  1913,  under  which  this  arbitration  is  held, 
and  a  copy  of  the  agreement  to  arbitrate  and  the  appointment 
of  the  arbitrators.  This  Board  was  formed  pursuant  to  the 
Act  of  July  15,  1913,  known  as  the  Newlands  Act. 

We  appreciate  the  importance  of  the  work  which  is  before 
us,  realizing  as  we  do  that  in  order  to  reach  a  fair  and  equitable 
adjustment  of  the  matters  in  controversy  between  the  parties 
at  interest  it  will  be  necessary  to  examine  a  vast  amount  of 
documentary  evidence,  involving  complicated  statistical  and  oral 
testimony.  This  is  the  second  concerted  arl)itration  held  under 
the  Act  of  July  15,  1913. 

We  are  now  ready  to  proceed. 

We  now  have  forty-five  minutes  until  the  hour  for  recess, 
and  first  in  order  we  mil  hear  an  opening  statement  from  the 
Locomotive  Engineers. 

OPENING  STATEMENT  ON  BEHALF  OF 
ENGINEERS  AND  FIREMEN 

Mr,  Stone :  Gentlemen  of  the  Board  of  Arbitration :  In 
presenting  our  side  of  this  case  to  the  Board,  we  think  it  only 
fair  to  both  Mr.  Carter  and  myself  to  say  that  we  are  not  laAv- 
yers,  such  as  the  other  side  of  the  case  will  use  in  their  presen- 
tation, so,  if  at  times  we  get  away  from  lines  of  legal  procedure, 
it  is  due  to  our  ignorance,  and  not  to  intent.  It  is  not  our  desire 
to  do  anything  but  bring  out  the  true  facts  in  the  case.  Per- 
sonal feeling  has  no  place  here.  Eegardless  of  what  the  de- 
cision of  this  Board  may  be,  the  railroads  involved  in  the  arbi- 
tration will  still  require  operating  officials  to  operate  them  and 
they,  in  turn,  will  require  the  services  of  these  locomotive  en- 
gineers, firemen  and  hostlers. 

We  wish  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Board  to  one  important 
fact,  viz.,  the  case  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers 
and  the  case  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  P^'iremen  and 
Enginemen  are  not  separate  and  distinct  cases,  but  are  instead 
a  single  proposition.    And,  while  the  matter  to  be  presented  to 


32 

the  Board  will  be  presented  l)y  the  representatives  of  the  two 
organizations,  and,  in  the  matter  of  presenting  details,  one  offi- 
cer or  the  other  will  act,  as  the  needs  of  the  case  may  require, 
yet,  the  testimony  of  witnesses  and  all  other  evidence  we  shall 
introduce  will  always  apply  alike  to  all  phases  of  the  case  and 
to  the  classes  that  are  represented  by  us. 

In  the  beginning,  we  would  like  to  impress  upon  you  that,  in 
the  many  things  we  shall  attemi)t  to  show  regarding  the  service 
of  engineers,  their  exposure,  responsibility,  long  hours  of  serv- 
ice, the  hard  nerve  racking,  soul  breaking  grind,  with  it  all  and 
through  it  all  there  is  always  a  fireman  in  the  cab  of  the  engine 
with  the  engineer,  sharing  it  all  ^\ith  him.  They  work  together ; 
live  most  of  their  waking  hours  together ;  eat  and  sleep  together, 
very  often  and,  in  many  cases,  they  have  died  together.  So. 
they  are  partners  in  the  truest  sense  and  should  share  alike  in 
any  benefits  that  may  accrue  from  this  award. 

In  speaking  of  the  conditions  under  which  these  men  Avork, 
I  shall,  no  doubt,  get  very  much  in  earnest,  because  their  work- 
ing conditions  and  the  hardships  they  endure  lie  very  close  to 
my  heart.  Yet,  I  have  no  desire  to  be  offensive.  I  do  desire  to 
present  our  side  of  the  case  in  the  strongest  possible  light. 
Many  of  the  operating  officials  of  the  railroads  in  question  are 
my  personal  friends,  even  though  we  have  found  ourselves  on 
opposite  sides  of  the  question  in  the  past  and  at  the  present 
time. 

In  presenting  our  case,  it  might  be  well  to  outline  briefly  the 
steps  taken  which  led  up  to  this  arbitration,  and  to  state  in  a 
general  way  why  we  make  these  i"equests. 

The  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen 
began  preparations  for  a  wage  movement  more  than  two  years 
ago.  Later  on,  it  was  decided  that  they  should  work  jointly 
with  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers,  and  the  general 
chairmen  of  both  organizations  held  a  series  of  meetings  during 
August,  1913.  The  sixteen  articles  that  are  to  be  arbitrated  by 
this  Board  were  formulated  and  referred  back  to  the  member- 
ship of  the  two  organizations  for  their  approval.  On  October 
1st,  1913,  these  articles  had  been  approved  almost  unanimously 
by  the  membership  of  both  organizations  employed  by  the  rail- 
roads in  question.  On  October  10th,  1913,  the  articles  were  pre- 
sented to  the  operating  officers  on  each  of  the  railroads  in  the 


33 

western  territory,  with  the  usual  thirty  days'  notice  of  our  desire 
to  open  our  wage  schedules  for  amendment.  The  sixteen 
articles  submitted  carried  with  them  a  moderate  increase  in 
rates  of  pay  and  a  considerable  improvement  in  working  con- 
ditions, and  were  to  be  applied  to  the  schedules  then  in  effect. 
Articles  not  affected  by  the  sixteen  articles  presented  were  to 
remain  in  force. 

The  operating  officials,  through  their  association,  went  us 
one  better  and,  on  the  same  date  that  our  committees  i3resented 
their  proposition  to  the  operating  officials  of  the  individual 
roads,  in  turn,  they  submitted  a  counter  proposition  to  the  em- 
ployees' committees,  giving  thirty  days'  notice  of  their  desire 
to  terminate  all  schedules  in  effect  on  the  lines  represented  by 
the  Association  of  Western  Railways,  and  submitting  some 
vague  generalities  on  which  they  proposed,  later  on,  to  formu- 
late a  new  schedule  of  wages  and  working  conditions.  This  was 
looked  upon,  at  the  time,  by  the  Association  of  Western  Rail- 
ways as  a  shrewd  master  stroke.  Since  that  time,  however,  the 
sentiment  has  changed,  and  it  is  now  regarded  by  many  as  a 
mistake. 

On  the  same  date  (October  10,  1913)  Mr.  Carter  and  myself 
submitted  a  copy  of  the  sixteen  articles  to  Mr.  Tinsman,  Chair- 
man of  the  Association  of  Western  Railways,  and  asked  that  he 
take  up  with  the  Association  the  question  of  the  selection  of  a 
Conference  Committee  from  the  members  of  the  Association, 
with  full  power  to  act  for  all  the  railroads  represented. 

Receipt  of  this  request  was  acknowledged  by  Mr.  Tinsman, 
and  the  request  was  submitted  to  the  individual  members  of 
the  Association,  with  the  result  that  a  conference  committee  of 
thirteen  w^as  selected,  with  full  power  to  represent  the  ninety- 
eight  railroads  involved.  After  several  delays,  largely  due  to  my 
illness,  the  first  conference  was  held  on  February  10,  1914.  An- 
other delay  then  occurred,  caused  by  the  illness  of  Mr.  Tinsman. 
Finally,  Mr.  Trenholm  was  selected  as  Chairman  to  succeed  Mr. 
Tinsman,  and  a  series  of  conferences  was  held,  lasting  through 
several  months.  I  believe  there  were  some  thirty-six  confer- 
ences held,  in  all. 

Looking  back  now,  I  cannot  believe  that  the  Conference 
Committee  of  Managers  ever  seriously  considered  the  granting 
of  a  single  cent  of  the  increase  asked  for,  or  had  the  least  idea 


34 

of  trying  to  settle  the  case.  This  statement  is  further  borne  out 
by  their  verbal  statements  made  before  the  Joint  Connnittee,  by 
those  that  have  passed  between  us,  and  by  their  |)ul)lic  statements 
given  to  the  ])ress,  and  printed  by  tlie  thousand  and  sent  broad- 
cast over  the  country,  at  the  time  negotiations  were  l>roken  off, 
when  the  matter  was  submitted  back  to  the  men. 

In  a  letter  from  Mr.  Tinsman,  (*hairman  of  the  Association 
of  Western  Railways,  addressed  to  Mr.  Carter  and  myself,  un- 
der date  of  October  30,  1913,  he  cpiotes  from  the  standard  form 
of  letter  issued  by  the  individual  members  of  the  Association 
of  Western  Railways  to  their  employees,  the  same  being  issued 
by  instructions  of  the  association,  in  accordance  with  the  i^lan 
that  had  been  carefully  prepared,  as  follows: 

*'A.  That  schedules  of  pay  now  in  effect  shall  not  be  in- 
creased." 

Again,  in  letter  No.  54,  Mr.  Trenholm's  letter  as  chairman 
addressed  to  Mr.  Carter  and  myself,  there  is  the  following  lan- 
guage: 

''The  present  time  is  inopportune  for  the  continuance  of 
consideration  of  wage  propositions  of  such  character  as  those 
in  which  we  are  now  engaged." 

Again,  in  letter  No.  97,  Mi'.  Trenholm's  letter  to  Mr.  Carter 
and  myself  under  date  of  May  25,  1914,  you  will  find  the  fol- 
lowing: 

"We  expressed  to  you  our  willingness  to  discuss  rates  to  be 
applied  to  such  basis,  with  the  intention  that  such  applications 
w^ould  not  reduce  the  compensation  of  the  men." 

Again,  in  their  misleading  statement  given  to  the  public 
press  under  date  of  June  1,  1914,  we  find  the  following: 

"For  reasons  which  were  fully  presented,  the  Conference 
Committee  of  Managers  did  not  believe  the  railways  would  be 
justified  in  making  any  increase  in  the  wages  of  the  employees, 
to  say  nothing  of  the  enormous  increases  requested;  but  it  was 
not  intended  to  make  any  reduction  in  wages." 

The  Conference  Committee  of  Managers,  in  their  famous 


statement  to  the  press,  under  date  of  June  1,  1914,  used  the  fol- 
lowing language: 

"The  Conference  Committee  of  Managers  recognizes  the  fact 
that  railways  are  engaged  in  a  public  service.  It  recognizes  the 
fact  that  therefore  the  managers  of  railways  have  no  moral  right 
to  accede  to  unreasonable  requests  of  employees,  the  granting 
of  which  would  unduly  increase  expenses  of  railway  operations, 
because  in  the  long  run  the  public  is  the  chief  sufferer,  for  what- 
ever embarrasses  the  adequate  maintenance  or  efficient  and  eco- 
nomical operation  of  railways." 

It  is  refreshing  to  see  this  change  in  sentiment,  but  it  is 
only  seen  when  some  question  of  increase  in  wages  of  the  em- 
ployees is  concerned  that  they  become  so  solicitous  for  the  long 
suft'eriiag  and  patient  public.  A  little  group  of  financial  pirates 
will  exploit  some  railroad  and  place  a  burden  on  the  public, 
which  generations  yet  unborn  will  have  to  bear,  and  you  hear 
not  even  a  whisper  of  the  rights  or  sufferings  of  the  public. 

The  organizations,  when  they  consented  to  this  arbitration, 
believed  then,  and  they  believe  now,  that  any  board  of  arbitra- 
tion will  recognize  the  changed  conditions  in  the  transportation 
service  that  demand  more  than  ever  before  of  the  individual 
employed,  and  that  new  rates  and  working  conditions  be  estab- 
lished to  compensate  them  for  services  performed. 

The  great  trouble  has  been,  in  times  past,  in  having  the 
rank  and  file  of  the  people  understand  the  work  of  the  rail- 
road employes,  because  it  is  different  from  anything  else.  If 
there  is  any  job  in  the  industrial  world  that  calls  for  more 
complete  concentration  of  mind,  quicker  action  of  brain  and 
sounder  judgment  than  that  of  the  man  in  the  cab  of  the  loco- 
motive, I  have  never  yet  heard  it  named.  No  thinking  man  will 
deny  that  every  business  must  make  good  depreciation,  wear  and 
tear,  before  it  can  pay  off  any  profit.  Precisely  so  it  is  with 
labor.  The  entire  capital  of  the  working-man  is  the  bone  and 
sinew  of  the  man,  the  muscle,  energy  and  brain  power  which 
day  by  day  are  being  worn  out  and  consumed  until,  eventually, 
he  is  used  up  and  goes  to  the  scrap  pile  of  commercial  industry 
as  so  much  worn-out  junk. 

We  all  realize  enough  must  be  saved  from  the  earnings  of  a 


36 

locomotive  to  buy  a  new  one  when  the  old  one  is  worn  out. 
What  we  have  not  yet  learned  is  that  labor  must  be  paid  enough 
to  make  good  this  worn-out  human  machine. 

In  this  day  of  hea^^  power  and  heavy  tonnage,  longer  hours 
and  more  congested  traffic,  and  those  two  curses  of  modern 
railroading,  physical  examinations  and  age  limitation,  men  are 
being  sent  to  the  scrap  pile  at  an  age  when  they  should  be  at 
their  very  best  and  should  be  able  to  give  good  and  efficient 
service  for  fifteen  or  twenty  years  to  come,  and  when,  in  other 
lines  of  emplojanent,  they  are  giving  the  very  best  of  service. 

I  would  lay  it  dow^n  as  a  fundamental,  basic  principle  that 
if  physical  or  technical  examinations,  age  limitations,  or  service 
requirements  beyond  the  limit  of  human  endurance  are  to  de- 
prive a  man  in  middle  life  from  earning  a  living  at  the  profes- 
sion for  which  he  has  spent  long,  hard  years  in  fitting  himself ^ 
then,  in  fixing  the  price  the  man  is  to  receive  for  his  labor,  he 
should  not  only  receive  a  living  wage,  but  should  receive  a  wage 
that  would  enable  him  to  live  in  comfort  the  remainder  of  his 
years  after  he  has  been  disqualified. 

Before  taking  up  the  question  of  what  we  hope  to  prove 
by  witnesses  and  other  methods,  I  desire  to  outline  briefly  and 
in  a  general  way  why  we  make  these  requests  and  w^hy  w^e  be- 
lieve the  men  we  represent  are  entitled  even  to  more  than  we  ask. 

You  understand,  of  course,  that  under  the  terms  of  the  con- 
tract of  arbitration  there  is  a  saving  clause  that  reads  as  follows : 
''That  any  rates  of  pay,  including  excess  mileage  or  arbitrary 
differentials  that  are  higher,  or  any  rules  or  conditions  of  em- 
ployment contained  in  individual  schedules  in  effect  October  10, 
1914,  that  are  more  favorable  to  the  employes  than  the  award 
of  said  Board,  shall  not  be  modified  or  affected  by  said  award. '^ 
This  being  true,  we  have  not  come  here  to  give  away  a  single 
thing  that  we  now  have,  but  we  want  and  believe  we  are  entitled 
to  the  increase  we  ask  to  go  w^ith  it.  We  do  not  come  before 
this  Board  to  quibble  or  split  hairs  on  technicalities ;  we  expect 
to  meet  all  these  questions  in  a  broad  spirit  of  equity  and  fair 
dealing.  We  are  not  here  to  present  rumors  or  idle  theories; 
we  are  here  to  present  absolute  facts.  We  have  nothing  to 
conceal  in  presenting  our  exhibits ;  we  have  no  desire  to  intro- 
duce anything  that  is  not  absolutely  correct.     It  may  be  that 


»v 


37 

some  error  will  be  found,  that  some  error  will  have  crept  in, 
due  to  the  mistake  of  some  employe.  If  so,  we  would  ask  the 
privilege  of  eorrectino-  it,  and  we  concede,  without  question,  to 
the  other  side  the  same  privilege,  as  we  have  no  desire  to  intro- 
duce a  single  fact  before  this  Board  that  is  not  absolutely  cor- 
rect, and  we  court  the  fullest  investigation,  standing  prepared 
to  prove  every  statement  we  make.  We  desire  and  hope  that 
you  who  are  charged  with  the  power  of  making  the  final  decision 
of  this  great  question  will  give  that  decision  on  the  broadest 
possible  lines  of  fairness.  I  doubt  if  any  like  body  of  men  in 
the  world's  history  has  been  called  upon  to  decide  questions  of 
graver  importance  or  more  far-reaching  effect.  It  is  no  idle 
dream  when  I  say  that  the  eyes  of  capital  and  labor,  not  only 
in  the  territorv  affected  but  in  the  entire  civilized  world,  are 
watching  the  outcome  of  your  decision  and  upon  the  decision 
will  depend,  in  a  large  measure,  Avhether  the  principle  of  arbi- 
tration, which  many  thoughtful  people  are  trying  to  establish 
as  a  means  of  settling  industrial  disputes,  will  receive  new 
strength,  or  whether  it  will  be  a  step  backward. 

In  fixing  the  rate  of  pay  for  these  men  in  the  cab  of  the 
locomotive,  there  are  many  elements  that  must,  in  all  fairness, 
be  gi\en  considei-ation.  Among  others,  there  is  that  of  respon- 
sibility. With  all  due  respect  to  the  other  railroad  employees 
and  officials  on  these  great  systems,  it  is  the  men  in  the  cab, 
the  fireman  and  engineer,  who  are  really  the  responsible  men; 
men  who  by  their  skill  and  ability  make  it  possible  for  a  rail- 
road to  earn  revenue  and  pay  dividends. 

You  may  have  the  finest  railroad  in  the  w^orld,  with  a  road- 
bed and  equipment  of  the  very  best  and  latest  type,  every  known 
safety  device,  the  road  officered  by  competent  railroad  officials, 
who  know  their  business  thoroughly,  every  other  employee  per- 
forming every  duty  required  of  him,  yet  that  railroad  does  not 
earn  one  single  penny  imtil  these  men  we  represent  go  into  the 
cab  of  the  locomotive  and  begin  their  arduous  labor.  It  is  only 
when  they  start  the  ponderous  machine  that  the  company  is 
enabled  to  move  the  thousands  of  tons  of  freight  and  the  hun- 
dreds of  passengers  to  their  destinations.  So,  they  are  the  men 
who  carry  the  heaviest  end  of  the  load  of  responsibility.  That 
responsibility  is  becoming  heavier  each  year.    Each  year  traffic 


38 

becomes  heavier  and  more  congested;  each  year  tlie  network  of 
signals  increases;  each  year  the  public  demands  faster  time  and 
better  service;  each  year  they  build  larger  and  more  powerful 
locomotives:  each  year  the  tonnage  of  trains  increases;  each  year 
more  and  more  is  required  of  the  men  in  the  cab  of  the  locomo- 
tive; each  year  examinations  become  more  strict  and  discii)line 
more  rigid.  And,  it  must  not  be  overlooked  that  all  of  these 
increased  burdens  fall  on  the  same  men;  their  number  not  having 
been  increased  for  the  purpose  of  dividing  this  work  and  re- 
sponsibility. Only  one  engineer  and  one  fireman  are  found  in 
the  cab.  This  is  not  true  of  the  transportation  service  in  other 
lines.  Take,  for  example,  your  great  steamship  companies  with 
ships  like  the  Yaterland,  for  instance,  one  of  the  largest.  There, 
instead  of  having  one  captain  you  have  four  captains  and  one 
commander  in  charge.  The  responsibility  is  divided  between 
five  men  instead  of  the  responsibility  being  on  one;  yet,  no  mat- 
ter how  large  the  locomotive,  no  matter  how  heavy  the  train,  no 
matter  how  fast  the  time,  the  entire  responsibility  rests  on  one 
engineer  and  one  fireman  in  the  cab.  There  never  was  a  time 
in  the  history  of  the  railroad  world  when  so  much  was  being- 
taken  out  of  the  men  in  the  cab  as  now — requirements  that  are 
beyond  the  limit  of  liuman  endurance. 

Few  realize  the  hard  years  of  toil  and  training  it  takes  and 
the  many  examinations  required  to  become  an  engineer,  and  the 
many  examinations  he  is  subjected  to  after  he  has  .become  an 
engineer. 

The  boy  comes  from  the  farm,  preferably;  if  not,  from  wher- 
ever they  can  get  him,  and  he  enters  the  service  of  the  com]^any 
as  a  fireman.  He  must  be  physically  perfect  in  order  to  stand 
the  lieavv  toil  demanded  of  him.  He  must  not  be  beyond  a  cer- 
tain  age,  usually  not  to  exceed  28  years.  He  must  not  weigh 
less  than  145  pounds  nor  more  than  190.  He  must  be  not  less 
than  5  feet  4  inches  in  height,  and  not  over  6  feet  1  inch.  Lungs, 
heart  action,  eyesight,  hearing  and  color  perception  must  be  per- 
fect. On  many  of  our  roads  the  physical  examination  is  more 
rigid  than  the  United  States  Government  requires  for  men  en- 
listing in  the  armv  or  the  navv. 

The  boy  fulfills  all  these  requirements  and  enters  the  serv- 
ice as  a  fireman,  and,  in  most  cases,  shovels  from  ten  to  thirty 


39 

tons  of  coal  each  trip:  shovels  it  into  a  white-hot  fire  box,  heated 
to  hundreds  of  degrees  of  temperature,  looking  into  this  white 
heated  furnace  to  see  where  to  place  each  shovelful  of  coal; 
the  intense  heat  blinding  his  eyesight  and  blistering  his  skin 
on  the  left  side,  Avhile  the  right  side  of  his  body  is  exposed  to  a 
wind  cutting  through  the  gangway  and  weather  anywhere  from 
120  degrees  above  to  55  below  zero.  If  he  survives  this  for  a 
year,  he  is  given  his  first  examination  and  he  must  pass  a  certain 
percentage  of  the  questions  asked.  This  percentage  varies  on 
the  different  roads,  but  is  usually  from  75  to  85  per  cent.  He 
continues  for  another  vear  and  is  given  his  second  examination 
and  must  pass  85  per  cent  of  the  questions  asked,  for  a  rating. 
Then,  another  year  as  fireman,  and  he  is  given  his  third  and 
final  examination  as  a  fireman.  He  is  also  examined  on  air 
brakes  and  machinery  by  the  motive  power  department,  and  on 
book  of  rules,  train  orders  and  signal  rules  by  the  transporta- 
tion department,  and  he  must  pass  85  per  cent  on  his  rating. 
If  he  passes  all  these,  he  is  then  sent  to  the  company's  surgeon 
for  another  physical  examination,  also  eyesight,  hearing,  color 
perception,  etc.  If  he  passes  all  of  these,  he  is  given  a  certificate 
showing  he  is  qualified  and  is  available  for  service  as  an 
engineer. 

He  runs  extra  trips  as  an  engineer  and  fires  during  the  rest 
of  the  time  his  services  are  not  required  as  an  engineer.  He 
will  continue  to  do  this  for  perhaps  two  to  ten  years,  before 
being  regularly  assigned  to  service  as  an  engineer.  During  all 
this  time  there  has  been  a  gradual  sifting  out  process.  Many 
quit  because  tliej  are  physically  unable  to  stand  the  strain, 
others  because  they  can  make  more  money  under  more  favor- 
able working  conditions  elsewhere;  others  are  rejected  because 
of  defective  eyesight  from  the  intense  glare  and  heat  of  the 
firebox. 

After  he  becomes  an  engineer,  on  many  roads,  he  is  subject 
to  re-examination  on  the  book  of  rules,  air  brakes,  block  signals, 
etc.,  at  stated  periods,  and  is  subject  to  being  called  in  at  any 
time  Avhen,  in  the  judgment  of  the  local  officials,  it  is  necessary, 
for  a  re-examination. 

Again,  these  requests  should  be  given  consideration  on 
account  of  the  hazard  of  the  profession.  The  profession  of  the 
men  in  the  cab  of  a  locomotive  is  classed  as  extra-hazardous. 


40 

None  of  tlie  old  line  insurance  companies  care  to  insure  them  at 
all  and,  if  they  do  insure  them,  charge  an  extra  premium.  So, 
both  organizations  here  represented  have  their  own  insurance. 
The  exhibits  we  shall  present  during  these  proceedings  are  com- 
piled from  our  own  insurance  departments,  and  you  can  rely 
on  their  being  accurate. 

In  addition  to  the  hazard  of  the  profession,  the  man  in  the 
cab  of  the  locomotive  has  the  further  hazard  of  loss  of  position. 
We  have  spoken  of  the  rigid  discipline  today  on  the  different 
roads.  When  God  created  man  in  his  own  image,  he  endowed 
him  with  a  mind  to  act  for  himself.  No  one  can  g-uarantee  that 
a  man  will  continue  to  perform  the  same  duty  in  exactly  the 
same  way  day  in  and  day  out,  year  in  and  year  out,  like  a 
machine,  so  we  will  always  have  the  human  element  to  deal  with. 
Yet,  the  same  duty  is  required  of  the  man  in  the  cab  of  the 
locomotive,  not  only  every  day  but  every  minute  of  every  day 
when  he  is  on  duty,  no  matter  what  the  condition  of  the  weather 
may  be,  whether  it  is  a  stifling  heat  or  bitter  cold,  rain,  sleet, 
snow,  or  fog  thick  as  wool,  the  same  requirements  are  demanded 
and  no  excuse  is  accepted  for  failure,  no  matter  what  the  phys- 
ical condition  of  the  man  may  be. 

In  presenting  our  case,  we  shall  hope  to  show  by  our  wit- 
nesses the  changed  conditions  under  which  they  work  and  the 
present  requirements,  as  compared  with  the  conditions  in  effect 
when  the  present  schedules  were  agreed  upon.  We  shall  en- 
deavor to  show,  by  exhibits  and  in  other  Avays,  that  during  the 
past  twenty-four  years  the  western  railroads  have  make  remark- 
able gains  in  productive  efficiency,  by  the  installation  of  locomo- 
tives of  greater  tractive  power,  by  the  elimination  of  curves 
and  the  reduction  of  grades,  and  remarkable  increases  in  train- 
loads  have  been  made.  In  the  last  analysis,  the  burden  of  all 
these  economies  in  the  interest  of  the  railroad  investments  are 
borne  by  the  men  in  the  transportation  service.  These  develop- 
ments have  had  a  three-fold  effect  on  the  engineers  and  firemen : 
(1)  Increase  in  their  labors  and  responsibilities,  (2)  their  pro- 
ductive efficiencv  has  been  greatly  increased,  (3)  their  earning 
capacity,  even  at  the  slightly  increased  rates  of  payment  they 
have  received,  has  declined. 

We  hope  to  be  able  to  show  that  these  railroads,  not  satis- 
fied with  the  present  hard  conditions,  that  are  already  beyond 


41 

the  limit  of  human  endurance,  are  intending  to  add  still  further 
to  the  existing  trainloads,  thereby  increasing  the  labors  and 
responsibilities  of  the  engineers  and  firemen. 

We  expect  to  be  able  to  show  that  the  revenue  gains  arising 
from  the  advances  already  made  in  the  productive  efficiency  of 
the  western  railroads  have  been  sufficiently  great  to  pay  all  in- 
creases in  operating  costs,  as  well  as  reasonable  returns  on  the 
additional  capital  investments  and,  in  addition,  leave  an  ample 
surplus  to  remunerate  engineers  and  firemen  for  their  increased 
work  and  productive  efficiency. 

This,  in  a  general  way,  is  the  outline  of  the  case  w^e  are 
about  to  present  to  you. 

It  is  not  my  purpose  to  discuss  the  articles  at  this  time.  I 
would  rather  leave  them  to  the  bringing  out  of  their  intent  from 
the  witnesses  w^e  shall  put  on  the  stand,  so  that  full  opportunity 
may  be  given  for  cross  examination,  if  it  is  desired. 

I  would  like  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Board  of  Arbitra- 
tion to  this  one  fact :  that,  in  proceedings  of  this  kind,  the  arbi- 
tration agreement  contains  the  demands  of  the  brotherhoods, 
but  just  what  defense  the  railroads  will  interpose  to  this  has 
not  been  disclosed.  We  cannot  anticipate  their  defense.  The 
position  of  the  railroads  may  be  that  the  members  of  the 
Brotherhoods  are  already  receiving  sufficient  compensation;  or, 
it  may  be  that  they  are  not  in  the  financial  condition  to  grant 
the  demands  of  the  Brotherhoods;  or,  it  may  be  both  of  these 
defenses,  in  connection  with  some  other  defense.  But,  whatever 
their  defenses  may  be,  we  expect  to  meet  them  at  the  proper 
time  and  with  the  proper  evidence,  and  we  expect  to  reserve  the 
right  to  meet  the  position  of  the  railroads  by  proper  evidence 
after  such  position  has  been  disclosed  by  the  e\T.dence  of  the 
railroads. 

There  is  another  thing,  gentlemen  of  the  Board,  that  I  think 
should  be  brought  to  your  attention,  at  this  time,  and  that  is  the 
question  of  the  division  of  time  between  the  Brotherhoods  and 
the  railroads  for  the  presentation  of  evidence. 

Inasmuch  as  the  Brotherhoods  are  assuming  the  position  of 
plaintiffs,  in  this  case,  we  feel  that  we  should  have  something 
more  than  an  equal  division  of  time  to  compensate  for  the  time 
which  it  will  be  necessary  to  consume  in  rebuttal.  This  ques- 
tion would  not  necessarilv  arise  if  it  were  not  for  the  fact  that 


42 

the  time  limit  is  fixed  by  the  arbitration  agreement  at  three 
months,  and  during  that  time  the  holidays  and  a  number  of 
Sundays  intervene. 

So  far  as  the  Brotherhoods  are  concerned,  they  are  willing 
to  leave  the  matter  to  the  Board  of  Arbitration,  ^vithout  any 
restrictions  or  time  limits  on  either  side,  if  the  railroads  will 
agree  that  if,  in  the  judgment  of  the  Board,  additional  time, 
over  the  limit  placed  by  the  arbitration  agreement,  is  necessary, 
the  Board  may  grant  such  additional  time  as  it  may  deem  neces- 
sary for  the  presentation  of  the  evidence  and  for  the  arguments 
of  counsel.  However,  we  feel  that  this  matter  should  be  passed 
upon  by  the  Board  at  an  early  date,  so  that  the  parties  hereto* 
may  know  just  what  time  they  have  at  their  disposal.  That  is  a 
question,  gentlemen,  that  is,  I  think,  of  vital  importance  to  both 
sides  in  regard  to  shaping  the  testimony  of  our  witnesses  and 
the  introducing  of  evidence. 

That,  in  a  general  way,  completes  our  opening  statement 
of  the  case. 

THE  CHAIRMAN :  The  question  which  you  raise  now  as 
to  the  amount  of  time  to  be  accorded  to  the  employees  for  the 
purpose  of  putting  in  rebutting  testimony  will  be  decided  later 
by  the  Board,  i^erhaps,  this  afternoon. 

We  have  twenty-five  minutes  before  the  recess  in  which 
to  hear  from  the  opposite  side. 

OPENING  STATEMENT  ON  BEHALF  OF  THE 
WESTERN  RAILWAYS 

Mr.  Sheean:  May  it  please  the  Board,  in  view  of  the  state- 
ment made  on  behalf  of  the  employees,  it  does  not  seem  to  me 
feasible  for  the  railroads,  at  this  time,  to  take  up  and  discuss  in 
detail  the  reasons  for  declining  particular  articles  of  the  presen- 
tation as  made.  I  think  about  all  that  can  be  said,  at  this  time, 
on  behalf  of  the  railroads  is  that  the  present  rates  of  pay  and 
compensatory  rules,  as  applied  to  the  different  railroads  involved 
in  this  movement  are  full,  fair  and  adequate.  There  is  no  dis- 
position, at  this  time,  to  quarrel  with  most  of  the  statements 
made  by  Mr.  Stone  as  to  the  responsibility  of  the  engineer, 
as  to  the  responsibility  of  the  fireman,  as  to  the  fact  that  the 
railroad  companies  are  desirous  of  keeping  and  maintaining  com- 


43 

petent  men,  and  paying  such  men  salaries  commensurate  with 
the  duties  and  responsibilities  that  are  imposed  upon  them. 

There  has  been  no  intimation  or  suggestion,  in  the  opening- 
statement  on  behalf  of  the  Brotherhoods,  as  to  why  any  one  of 
these  rules  or  why  any  number  of  the  rules  which  they  present 
are  necessary  to  furnish  compensation  adequate  to  meet  the  re- 
quirements of  the  particular  service.  I  simply  want  to  say,  in 
order  that  the  Board  may  have  before  it  the  facts  out  of  which 
this  controversy  arises,  that  there  was  an  adjustment  with  both 
organizations  in  1910.  There  was  one  adjustment,  I  think,  by 
arbitration,  and  the  other  through  mediation,  so  that  most  of 
the  matters  that  have  been  indicated  here  with  reference  to 
the  growing  responsibility  or  changed  conditions  during  the 
past  twenty-four  years,  or  quarter  of  a  century,  have,  of  course, 
been  considered,  presented  and  passed  upon,  either  by  arbitra- 
tion in  1910  or  by  mutual  agreement  of  the  parties. 

It  is  the  position  of  the  railroad  companies  that,  between 
1910  and  this  date,  there  has  been  no  such  change,  either  in 
operating  conditions  or  in  the  duties  or  responsibilities  imposed 
upon  the  men,  as  would  justify  an  increase,  at  this  time,  above 
the  increases  which  were  granted  three  or  four  years  ago. 

Of  course,  it  will  be  necessary,  as  the  case  proceeds,  that  the 
railroads  should  be  advised  of  the  reasons  advanced  for  the  in- 
corporation into  the  schedules  of  the  different  companies,  of  new 
rules  and  departures  from  principles  that  had  existed  in  the 
schedules  of  most  of  the  roads  for  many,  many  years. 

I  do  not  want,  at  this  time,  to  violate  the  rules  of  an  open- 
ing statement  by  indulging  in  any  argument  with  reference  to 
any  of  these  particular  propositions.  In  view  of  the  fact  that 
there  has  been  no  outline  of  the  reasons  which,  in  the  judgment 
of  the  men,  are  behind  each  of  these  propositions  as  made,  it  is 
not  feasible  that  I  should  suggest  the  reasons  why  any  particu- 
lar one  or  any  particular  number  of  these  rules  would  serve 
to  permit  arbitrary  payments,  and  to  require  from  different 
railroad  companies  double,  treble  or  even  quadruple  payments 
for  service  rendered  during  a  single  trip  or  a  single  day.  So 
that,  at  this  time,  if  the  Board  pleases,  we  ask  leave  to  reserve 
the  right  of  outlining  the  evidence  or  statistics  we  shall  intro- 
duce in  defense,  until  the  completion  of  the  case  made.    I  think 


44 

that  request  is  reasonable,  if  the  Board  pleases,  in  view  of  the 
fact  that,  at  this  time,  there  lias  been  no  outline  or  suggestion 
of  just  what  proof  would  be  introduced  in  support  of  any  par- 
ticular article. 

I  do  not  mean,  if  the  Board  pleases,  to  ask  leave  to  make 
any  argument  at  that  time,  but  simply  to  aid  both  counsel  and 
the  Board,  in  advance,  to  understand  the  purpose  and  object  of 
the  presentation  of  particular  statistics  and  particular  data. 
That  does  not  seem  to  be  feasible  or  even  desirable,  at  this  time, 
imtil  we  know  just  what  evidence  may  be  introduced  by  the 
complainants  or  proponents  in  support  of  a  particular  article 
or  particular  articles  in  their  proposal. 

Mr.  Nagel:    Maj^  I  ask  you  one  question? 
Mr.  Sheean:    Certainly. 

Mr.  Nagel:  In  resisting  these  claims,  do  the  railroads  take 
the  position  that  the  present  allowances  are  reasonable  under 
normal  conditions,  or  do  they  base  their  objections  upon  the 
railroad  conditions  of  the  immediate  present? 

Mr,  Sheean:  I  would  answer  the  first  question  affirmatively, 
that  it  is  our  position  that  the  compensation  provided  for  in 
these  schedules  is  full,  fair  and  adequate,  under  normal  condi- 
tions. If  the  claim  of  increased  productive  efficiency  which 
was  adverted  to  in  the  opening  statement  be  advanced  by  the 
other  side  they  will  probably  introduce  by  way  of  defense  tht^ 
fact  that  efficiency  has  not  resulted  in  profits  on  which  I  assume 
increased  productive  efficiency  fundamentally  rests. 

Perhaps  I  ought  to  say,  if  the  Board  will  indulge  me  just  a 
moment,  that  the  request  as  made  is  of  universal  application 
to  the  ninety-eight  railroads  involved,  with  reference  to  these 
schedules,  or  the  arbitrary  allowances  or  differentials  that  may 
obtain  in  any  of  the  schedules.  So  that,  instead  of  making  for 
standardization  or  uniformity  as  among  the  different  schedules, 
the  request  as  presented  is,  in  fact,  a  pyramiding  and  a  wider 
separation  by  reason  of  the  variety  of  differentials  in  different 
schedules,  and  the  imposition  upon  that  varying  base  of  a  uni- 
form standard,  wiiich,  of  course,  would  cause  a  departure  from 
uniformity  rather  than  work  for  uniformity. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Do  you  claim  that  those  differences  resulted 
from  former  arbitrations  and  adjustments? 


rV 


45 

Mr.  Slieean:     Oh,  yes.    The  differences  between  different; 
schedules  1 

Mr.  Nagel.    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Oh,  clearly,  your  Honor.  Perhaps,  by  way 
of  illustration,  I  could  make  my  point  clearer  on  that.  You 
may  have,  as  to  one  railroad,  a  rate  of  five  dollars  per  day,  or 
one  hundred  miles,  ten  hours  or  less,  a  rate  of  five  dollars.  The 
schedule  of  that  road  may  provide  that  the  time  of  that  engi- 
neer and  fireman  shall  begin  when  he  is  called  upon  to  report 
for  duty,  and  end  when  he  is  finally  released  from  duty.  Now, 
another  schedule  may  have  a  provision  that  the  engineer  shall 
be  released  at  the  depot.  That  schedule,  however,  having  such 
a  provision  as  that,  may  carry  a  rate  of  only  $4.50,  but  with  a 
provision  that  he  shall  be  allowed,  on  each  and  every  trip,  one 
hour  for  taking  his  train  from  the  depot  to  the  roundhouse,  in 
case  he  does.  So  that,  in  order  to  ascertain  what  the  compen- 
sation of  any  particular  man  may  be,  there  must  be  a  considera- 
tion not  only  of  rates  but  also  of  the  rules  to  which  the  rate  is 
applicable  in  that  schedule.  And,  therefore,  if  your  Honors 
please,  although  there  .might  be  an  absolute  uniformity  in  rates 
when  they  are  spread  over  ninety-eight  different  roads  and  ap- 
plied to  different  bases,  the  one  having  an  arbitrary  allow- 
ance— either  at  the  beginning  or  the  end  of  the  day,  or  at  an 
intermediate  part  of  it — the  uniform  rate  would  produce  at  the- 
end  of  the  identical  day  a  different  sum  of  money  under  the 
two  different  schedules,  and  this  lack  of  uniformity  is  not 
because  of  different  arbitrations. 

I,  perhaps,  should  have  said  that  there  was,  by  concerted 
movement,  in  1910  (in  the  one  case  through  mediation,  and  in 
the  other  by  arbitration)  a  settlement  of  the  differences  of  these 
roads,  up  to  that  time.  And,  therefore,  I  spoke  of  1910  as  the- 
starting  point  on  which  we  shall  base  our  claim  that  change 
or  changing  conditions  was  lost  in  consideration  of  the  question 
as  to  whether  or  not  that  was  not  departure  from  the  rates  and 
rules  then  established. 

I  am  perfectly  willing,  at  this  time,  to  say  that,  as  to  the 
suggestion  of  Mr.  Stone  that  at  any  time  the  Board  thinks  it 
desirable  or  necessary,  either  to  a  proper  presentation  of  the 
case,  a  proper  understanding,  or  a  proper  consideration  of  it,. 


46 

that  there  is  no  dispositiou  upon  the  part  of  the  railroad  com- 
panies to  object  in  any  manner  to  the  granting  of  any  extension 
that  may  be  thought  reasonabk^  and  necessary  for  the  fullest 
and  freest  and  most  complete  presentation  of  the  case  of  either 
side. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  being  true,  gentlemen,  I  would  ask  that 
the  Secretary  of  the  Board  draw  uj)  a  stifjulation  that  both 
parties  should  sign,  so  as  to  make  it  a  matter  of  record,  to  that 
effect,  so  that  there  can  be  no  question. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  think,  in  view  of  the  statements,  which  are 
a  matter  of  record,  Mr.  Stone,  the  statements  having  been  made 
by  both  sides,  that  the  Board  can  at  any  time  make  a  ruling  to 
meet  the  situation.    Not  that  I  object  to  it. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  am  not  versed  in  legal  practice,  so  I  do  not 
know  whether  the  Board,  by  a  statement  made  in  the  record, 
would  have  the  power  to  set  aside  a  written  contract  fixing  the 
time  or  not,  but,  if  they  do  not  have,  then,  I  think  it  should  be 
made  a  matter  of  stipulation  by  both  parties  to  the  contract. 

The  Chairman :  Any  stipulation  you  may  enter  into  will, 
of  course,  be  respected  by  the  Board. 

Mr.  Stone:  It  is  not  my  purpose  to  take  up  the  time  of 
the  Board,  at  this  time,  but  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to 
the  statement  in  my  opening  address,  wherein  I  said  it  was  not 
my  intention  to  discuss  these  articles  in  detail  at  the  time,  pre- 
ferring to  bring  them  out  by  the  witnesses  whom  we  shall  put 
on  the  stand. 

I  also  w^ant  to  disabuse  the  minds  of  the  Board  of  an  im- 
pression which  may  have  been  made  by  one  statement  of  my 
opponent,  Avhich  I  think  he  did  not  intend  just  that  way.  With 
those  two  exceptions,  there  is  not  a  single  thing  in  the  requests 
that  we  are  making  that  is  not  already  in  effect  on  some  of  the 
railroads  involved  and,  if  the  articles  were  granted  in  their 
entirety,  I  believe  my  opponent  would  agree  with  me  thej^  would 
go  a  long  way  toward  leveling  up  the  little  spots  and  bringing 
about  standardization  in  the  western  territory. 

The  Chairman:  The  Board  will  take  a  recess  until  2 
o  'clock. 

(Whereupon,  at  12:22  o'clock  P.  M.,  November  30,  1914,  an 
ftdjournment  was  taken  until  2  o'clock  P.  M.) 


47 

After  Recess. 

The  Chairman:     Are  you  ready  to  proceed? 

Mr.  Stone:  I  was  wondering,  Mr.  Chairman,  if  it  wouhl 
not  be  convenient  for  you  to  have  a  copy  of  the  articles,  in 
printed  form,  before  you  for  reference.  (Handing  up  copies.) 
I  desire  to  present,  as  our  first  exhibit,  Exhibit  Number  1,  the 
book  of  agreements  that  are  now  in  effect  in  the  Western  Terri- 
tory on  the  railroads  involved  in  this  arbitration,  for  engineers, 
and  to  put  on  the  stand,  as  our  schedule  man  and  first  witness, 
Mr.  M.  W.  Cadle,  Assistant  Grand  Chief  Engineer  of  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers. 

(The  Book  of  Agreements  so  offered  and  identified,  was  re- 
ceived in  evidence  and  marked  ^'Employes'  Exhibit  Number  1, 
November  30,  1914,"  and  is  filed  herewith.) 

M.  W.  CADLE  was  called  as  a  witness  and,  being  duly 
sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone :  Mr.  Cadle,  state  to  the  Board  your  experience 
and  your  present  occupation,  so  that  they  will  understand  that 
you  are  familiar  with  wage  making. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  am  filling  the  position  of  Assistant 
Grand  Chief  Engineer,  at  the  present  time.  I  have  had  some 
little  experience  in  dealing  with  these  schedules.  My  duties 
with  the  engineers  have  made  it  necessary  for  me  to  pass  on 
some  of  the  rules,  regulations  and  rates  in  those  schedules. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  are  reasonably  familiar  with  the  sched- 
ules in  existence  in  this  Western  territory,  in  this  Exhibit  Num- 
ber 1,  are  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Well,  yes,  sir ;  reasonably  so. 

The  Chairman:  Did  I  catch  what  position  this  witness 
occupies  f 

Mr.  Stone:  He  is  Assistant  Grand  Chief  Engineer  of  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers,  one  of  our  field  officers, 
whose  duty  it  is  to  go  around  and  meet  with  the  different  com- 
mittees of  the  different  roads.  It  is  our  purpose  to  prove  by 
this  witness  that  these  requests  of  ours,  with  one  or  two  slight 
exceptions,  are  already  in  effect  in  this  territory. 


48 

The  Chairman:  Let  the  witness  tell  what  he  may  know 
about  it. 

Mr.  Stone:  Taking-  up  the  first  article  of  the  request, 
Article  Number  I,  passenger  service,  ''100  miles  or  less,  five 
hours  or  less,  will  constitute  a  day's  work  in  all  classes  of 
passenger  service.  All  mileage  in  excess  of  100  miles  shall  be 
paid  for  pro  rata."  Do  you  know  of  any  railroads  where  the 
basis  of  day's  pay  for  passenger  service  is  five  hours'? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  forty-seven  railroads  in  the  Eastern 
territory  that  pay  on  the  five  hour  day  basis  or  compute  the 
time  on  twenty  miles  an  hour  basis. 

Mr.  Stone :     Are  there  any  in  the  Western  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  fourteen  railroads  in  the  Western 
territory  that  compute  their  time  on  a  twenty  mile  an  hour  basis 
or  a  five  hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone:     Are  there  any  in  the  Southeastern  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  twenty-four  railroads  in  the  South- 
east that  compute  their  day's  work  on  a  twenty  mile  an  hour  or 
five  hour  day  basis. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  there  any  roads  that  have  a  basis  of  less 
than  five  hours  for  a  day's  work,  in  passenger  service;  com- 
puted on  less  than  five  hours,  I  mean? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  two  railroads  in  the  Southeast  that 
compute  their  time  on  a  twenty-five  mile  an  hour  basis,  which 
means  a  four  hour  day,  in  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  there  any  roads  that  have  a  ten  hour  day 
in  the  passenger  service  in  the  Western  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Why,  there  are  twenty-nine  railroad  systems 
that  have  a  ten  hour  day,  in  the  Western  territory. 

Mr.  Stone :  What  have  they  in  the  Southeastern  territory, 
any  roads  there  that  pay  on  a  ten  hour  day? 

Mr.  Cadle:  We  have  got  three  railroad  systems  that  pay 
on  a  ten  hour  basis. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  that  pay  on  the  basis  of 
the  scheduled  time  of  the  train? 

Mr.  Cadle:     In  the  Southeast? 

Mr.  Stone:     Anywhere. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  there  are  railroads  that  pay  after  the 
schedule  of  the  train  has  been  exceeded  one  hour. 


,^ 


49 

Mr.  8tone :  Are  there  any  roads  that  have  an  eleven-honr 
day,  in  the  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  two  railroads  in  the  Southeast  that 
have  an  eleven-hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  Western  territoiy 
that  have  an  eight-hour  day  in  the  passenger  service  f 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  four  railroads  in  the  Western  terri- 
tory that  pay  on  an  eight-hour  basis. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  there  any  railroads  that  have  the  irregular 
basis  of  day's  pay,  in  the  passenger  service! 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  four  railroads  in  the  Western  terri- 
tory that  pay  for  irregular  service  on  fifteen  miles  an  hour, 
which  means  a  six-hour  and  fortv-minute  dav. 

Mr.  Stone:     Are  there  any  that  have  a  nine-hour  day! 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  is  one  that  has  a  nine-hour  day.  Five 
hours  and  thirty-three  minutes,  eighteen  miles  an  hour. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  there  any  basis  for  computing  a  day's  pay 
in  the  irregular  passenger  service,  in  the  AVestern  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  eight  railroads  that  compute  the 
irregular  passenger  service  on  a  twenty-mile  an  hour  basis, 
which  means  a  five-hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  Western  territory 
that  use  the  trip  basis  for  payment  in  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Ask  your  question  again. 

Mr;  Stone :  Are  there  any  roads  that  use  the  trip  basis  in 
passenger  service — paid  by  the  trip? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  by  the  trip. 
They  have  a  fixed  rate  per  day. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  railroads  that  pay  a  minimum 
day's  rate,  in  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  In  the  Southeastern  territory  there  are  seven- 
teen railroad  systems  that  have  a  minimum  of  five  dollars  for 
irregular  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  for  irregular  passenger  service  or  all 
passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:     All  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Stone:     A  minimum  day's  wage  of  five  dollars? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  there  any  other  road's  that  have  a  different 
minimum  from  the  five  dollars? 


50 

Mr.  Cadle:  Tlicrc  are  five  railroads  in  the  Soutlioastern 
territory  that  liave  a  mininiuin  of  $5.15  a  dav. 

Mr.  Stone:  Wlien  you  say  a  miiiinunn,  wliat  do  yon  mean 
by  that  ? 

Mr,  Cadle:  I  mean  that  tliat  is  the  minimum  wage  for  that 
dav's  work.  A  man  mav  go  out  and  run  thirtv  or  forty  miles 
and  if  that  is  all  the  work  that  they  have  for  him  to  do  in  that 
day,  they  will  pay  him  $5.15  for  it. 

Mr.  Stone:     In  other  words,  it  is  a  guaranteed  minimum 
wage  for  any  service  he  may  perform  in  that  day? 
Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  other  roads  that  have  a  differ- 
ent minimum  basis? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  two  roads  that  have  a  minimum  of 
$4.50  per  day.  There  is  one  railroad  that  has  a  minimum  of 
110  miles  per  day. 


Mr.  Stone 


Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 


At  what  rate? 


At  the  regular  i)assenger  rate. 
According  to  the  class  of  engine? 
Yes.    $5.25  and  $5.40. 

Will  you  explain  how  the  minimum  daily  rate 
compares  vith  the  regular  day  rate? 

Mr,  Cadle:  The  daily  rate,  in  ])assenger  service,  for  an 
engine  with  a  cylinder  of  twenty  inches  and  under  in  diameter, 
pays  $4.25.  Over  twenty-one  inches  pays  $4.40.  Now,  if  a  man 
runs  less  than  100  miles  in  passenger  service,  instead  of  taking 
the  $4.40  rate  or  the  $4.25  rate,  he  gets  $5.15.  They  guarantee 
him  a  minimum — or  $4.15  or  $4.40,  they  guarantee  a  minimum 
of  $5 

Mr.  Stone:    You  just  said  a  short  time  ago  $5.15  and  $5.40. 

Mr.  Cadle:  $5.25  and  $5.40  is  the  passenger  rate  in  the 
southeast. 

Mr.  Stone:    Do  you  not  mean  $4.15? 

Mr.  Cadle:    $4.15,  yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  reason  I  coiTect  it  is  that  I  do  not  want  to 
get  anything  wrong  into  the  record. 

Mr.  Cadle:    It  is  $4.25  and  $4.40  in  the  passenger  service. 

The  Chairman:  het  the  testimony  of  the  witness  be  cor- 
rected in  that  respect. 


51 

Mr.  Stone:  How  is  it  in  the  western  territory  on  thesis  rail- 
roads, whicli  are  a  party  to  this  agreement?  Wliat  is  tlie  gen- 
eral rnle? 

Mr.  Cadle:  100  miles  or  less,  10  hours  or  less,  is  their 
minimum. 

Mr.  Stone:  Can  you  give  the  names  of  these  fourteen  roads 
in  the  western  territory  that  have  a  basis  of  20  miles  an  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  there  is  the  Illinois  Central,  the  Kansas 
City  Southern,  the  Kansas  City,  Mexico  and  Orient,  the  San 
Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass,  the  St.  Louis,  Brownsville  &  Mexico, 
the  St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco,  Ft.  Worth  &  Gulf,  the  Wabash 
Railroad,  the  Yazoo  &  Mississippi  Valley  Railroad,  the  New 
Orleans,  Texas  &  Mexico  Railroad,  the  Chicago  &  Eastern  Illi- 
nois Railroad,  Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas  Railroad,  Chicago, 
Peoria  &  St.  Louis  Railroad,  and  the  El  Paso  &  Southwestern 
Railroad. 

Mr.  Stone:  Can  you  give  the  names  of  the  roads  in  the 
eastern  territory  which  have  a  20  mile  an  hour  basis  for  com- 
puting the  passenger  basis  of  a  day's  pay? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  Baltimore  &  Ohio,  the  Bessemer  &  Lake 
Erie,  the  Boston  &  Albany,  the  Boston  &  Maine,  the  Buffalo, 
Rochester  &  Pittsburgh,  the  Buffalo  and  Susquehanna,  the  Cen- 
tral Railroad  of  New  England,  the  Chicago,  Indianapolis  & 
Louisville,  the  Chicago  &  Indiana  Southern,  the  Chicago,  Terre 
Haute  &  Southern,  the  Cincinnati  Northern,  the  Cincinnati^  Ham- 
ilton &  Dayton,  the  C.  C.  C.  &  St.  Louis  (Big  Four  System),  the 
Coal  &  Coke,  the  Delaware  &  Hudson,  Delaware,  Lackawanna 
&  Western,  the  Detroit,  Toledo  &  Ironton,  the  Dunkirk,  Alle- 
gheny Valley  &  Pittsburgh,  the  Erie,  the  Grand  Rapids  &  Indi- 
ana, the  Hocking  Valley,  the  Indiana  Harbor  Belt,  the  Kanawha 
&  Michigan,  the  Lake  Erie  &  W^estern,  the  Lake  Erie,  Alliance 
&  Wheeling,  the  Lehigh  Valley,  the  Long  Island,  the  Lake 
Shore  &  Michigan  Southern,  the  Maine  Central,  the  Michigan 
Central,  the  New  York  Central,  the  New  York,  Chicago  &  St. 
Louis,  the  New  York,  New  Haven  &  Hartford,  the  New  York, 
Ontario  &  Western,  the  New  York,  Philadelphia  &  Norfolk,  the 
New  York,  Susquehanna  &  Western,  the  Pennsylvania  Lines 
East,  the  Pennsylvania  Lines  West,  the  Pere  Marquette,  the 
Pittsburgh  &  Lake  Erie,  the  Reading  Railroad,  the  Toledo  & 
Ohio  Central,  the  Toledo,  St.  Louis  &  Western,  the  Vandalia 


52 

Lines,  the  Western  Maryland,  the  Wheeling  &  Lake  Erie,  and 
the  Zanesville  &  Western — forty-seven  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone:  Can  you  give  the  names  of  the  twenty-four 
roads  in  the  southeastern  territory  where  they  compute  the  basis 
of  passenger  trains  on  a  speed  basis  of  20  miles  an  hour? 

It  might  be  well  to  exj^lain  to  the  Board  of  Arbitration 
that  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  divides  the  railroads 
of  the  country  into  three  distinct  districts:  What  is  known  as 
the  '* eastern  territory,"  lying  east  of  Chicago  and  north  of 
the  Ohio  river,  I  believe,  the  Norfolk  &  Western  being  the  divid- 
ing line;  what  is  known  as  the  "southeastern  territory,"  IjTing 
south  of  the  Ohio  river,  and  east  of  the  Illinois  Central  as  a 
dividing  line,  and  what  is  known  as  the  "western  territory," 
comprising  the  Illinois  Central  and  all  lines  west  of  it,  from 
the  Gulf  to  the  Canadian  Northern  and  the  Canadian  Pacific 
lines  west  of  Ft.  William.  So,  it  is  really  divided  into  three 
groups,  and  that  is  the  way  in  which  the  wage  schedules  have 
been  built  up. 

The  Chairman:  Could  you  not  submit  a  list  as  to  the  dif- 
ferent classes  of  rates,  and  have  the  other  side  agi'ee  to  it,  as 
to  that  particular  point,  without  going  into  all  this  with  the 
witness? 

Mr.  Stone:    Each  one  of  these? 

The  Chairman :  Yes.  As  I  understand,  these  railroads  are 
grouped  together  into  distinct  classes,  as  to  certain  rates. 

Mr.  Stone:  If  it  is  the  wish  of  the  Board,  that  we  do  so, 
I  think  perhaps  we  can  agree  on  the  classification  of  the  roads. 

Mr.  Sheean :  As  to  the  territorv,  there  is  no  difficultv  about 
that.  As  to  whether  these  schedules  give  a  five-hour  day  or  not, 
as  the  witness  has  enumerated,  I  do  not  think  we  can  agree. 

The  Chairman :     That  is  the  point  I  was  inquiring  about. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  do  not  think  it  is  possible  to  agree  as  to 
those  rates  being  a  five-hour  day,  because  all  the  provisions  of 
the  schedules  must  be  considered.  Mr.  Park  for  instance,  will 
not,  I  think,  assent  to  the  proposition  that  he  is  on  a  five-hour 
day  basis  on  the  Illinois  Central.  All  the  provisions  of  the 
schedule  must  be  considered  together. 

The  Chairman:  We  are  about  through  with  it  and  we 
might  as  well  go  on,  but  it  seems  as  though  it  would  save  a  good 
deal  of  time.  '     •  . 


>^ 


53 

Mr.  Cadle :     Please  ask  your  question  again"? 

Mr.  Stone:  Can  you  give  the  names  of  the  twenty-four 
roads  in  the  southeastern  territory  where  they  compute  the  basis 
of  passenger  trains  on  a  speed  basis  of  twenty  miles  an  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  Alabama  Great  Southern,  the  Alabama  & 
Vicksburg,  the  Atlanta,  Birmingham  &  Atlantic,  the  Atlantic 
Coast  Line,  the  Carolina,  Clinchfield  &  Ohio,  the  Carolina, 
Clinchfield  &  Ohio  of  South  Carolina,  the  Central  of  Georgia, 
the  Charleston  &  West  Carolina,  the  Cincinnati,  New  Orleans  & 
Texas,  the  Georgia  Railroad  &  Atlanta  Terminal,  the  Georgia 
&  Southern  Florida,  the  Gulf  &  Ship  Island,  the  Louisville  & 
Nashville,  the  Mobile  &  Ohio,  the  New  Orleans  &  Great  Northern, 
the  New  Orleans,  Mobile  &  Chicago,  the  New  Orleans  &  North- 
western, the  Norfolk  &  Southern,  the  Raleigh,  Charleston  & 
Southern,  the  Seaboard  Air  Line,  the  Southern  Railroad  of  Vir- 
ginia, the  Virginia  South- Western,  the  Northern  Alabama,  the 
Southern  Railroad  of  Mississippi,  the  Tennessee  Central,  the 
Vicksburg,  Shreveport  &  Pacific,  the  Virginian,  East  &  West  of 
Roanoke.    Those  are  twenty-four  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  the  Southeastern  territory,  in  all  cases 
where  a  minimum  daily  rate  is  shown,  it  is  higher  than  the  regu- 
lar day  rate,  is  it  not  1 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  five  dollars. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  you  understand  that  all  these  roads  that 
you  have  named  over — that  the  basis  of  a  day's  work  is  five 
hours,  and  overtime  begins  after  the  completion  of  five  hours! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :     Of  those  that  are  on  a  20  mile  an  hour  basis  I 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  measure  of  a  day's  work  of  an  engineer  on 
a  20  mile  an  hour  basis  is,  100  miles  or  less,  constitutes  a  day's 
work. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  might  ask  for  information,  Mr,  Chairman. 
Does  the  other  side  wish  to  cross-examine  on  each  class  of 
service  as  we  go  along,  or  after  we  have  completed  with  the  wit- 
ness? 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  would  rather  you  would  complete  with  the 
witness. 

The  Chairman :  Put  in  your  testimony,  and  then  when  the 
witness  gets  through  we  will  turn  him  over  to  the  other  side  for 
cross-examination. 


54 

Mr.  Stone:     Taking  up  Paragraph  2  of  Article  1: 

*'A11  other  service  except  switching.  One  hundred  miles  or 
less,  10  hours  or  less,  will  constitute  a  day's  work  in  all  classes 
of  service  except  passenger  and  switching  service.  All  mileage 
in  excess  of  100  miles  shall  be  paid  for  pro  rata.  Ten  miles '  run 
will  be  the  equivalent  of  one  hour's  service  performed,  or  vice 
versa. ' ' 

How  many  roads  in  the  Western  territory  compute  their 
basis  on  freight  trains  on  ten  miles  an  hour?  In  other  words, 
what  is  the  basis  of  through  freight  pay  in  the  Western  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle:  One  hundred  miles  or  less,  10  hours  or  less,  on 
the  principal  part  of  the  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  Western  territory 
that  are  on  an  eight-hour  day? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  six  railroads  in  the  West  that  com- 
pute their  daj^'s  work  on  an  eight-hour  day,  measure  it  that  w^ay. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  freight  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the.  Western  territory 
that  have  a  nine-hour  day? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  two  railroads  in  the  West  that  have 
a  nine-hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone:     Give  the  names  of  those  two  railroads. 

Mr.  Cadle :  They  are  the  Canadian  Northern  and  the  Grand 
Trunk  Pacific. 

Mr.  Stone:  Will  you  give  the  names  of  the  roads  in  the 
western  territory  that  are  on  an  eight-hour  day,  some  six,  I 
believe  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  are  the  El  Paso  &  Southeastern;  the 
Houston,  East  &  West  Texas;  the  Houston  &  Shreveport;  the 
San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass;  the  St.  Louis,  Bro^vnsville  &  New 
Mexico;  the  Southern  Pacific  Railroad  (that  is,  the  Pacific  lines 
in  the  Valley  district). 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  not  the  Houston  &  Texas  Central  on  an 
eight-hour  day? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir.  The  Houston,  East  &  West  and  the 
Houston  &  Texas  Central  are  both  on  an  eight-hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone:  These  are  all  freight  rates  you  are  talking 
about  now? 


Y^ 


55 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  How  do  the  bases  of  pay  in  the  Western  terri- 
tory compare  with  those  in  the  Southeastern  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  principal  part  of  the  railroads  in  the 
Southeastern  territory  in  freight  service  compute  their  time 
on  a  12Vi>  mile  an  hour  basis,  which  means  an  eight  hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone :  Then,  in  other  words,  there  are  only  a  few  roads 
in  the  Southeastern  territory  that  have  as  long  a  day  as  ten 
hours  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes.    There  are  just  a  few  of  them. 

Mr.  Stone:  How  many  roads  have  we  in  the  Western  terri- 
tory that  compute  the  basis  of  a  day's  work  in  freight  service 
on  ten  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  59  railroad  systems  in  the  West  that 
compute  their  day's  work  on  100  miles  or  less,  10  hours  or  less. 

Mr.  Stone :  Then,  if  your  statement  is  correct,  there  are  six 
railroads  in  the  Westerii  territory  that  have  an  eight  hour  day, 
as  against  seventeen  railroads  in  the  Southeastern  territory.  Is 
that  correct? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  correct  that  there  are  two  railroads  in  the 
Western  territory  that  have  an  eight  hour  and  twenty  minute 
day  as  against  one  in  the  Southeast  territory  in  freight  service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir,  there  are  two  railroads  that  have  an 
eight-hour-and-twenty-minute  day,  and  one  in  the  Southeastern 
territory. 

Mr.  Stone :  How  many  railroads  are  there  in  the  West  that 
have  a  nine-hour  day  as  compared  with  the  Southeastern  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  two  railroads  in  the  Southeast  that 
have  a  nine-hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone :     No. 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  two  railroads  in  the  west  that  have 
a  nine-hour  day,  100  miles  or  less  to  constitute  a  day's  work. 

Mr.  Stone :     How  many  are  there  in  the  southeast  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  In  the  Southeastern  territory  there  are  11  rail- 
roads in  the  Southeastern  territory  that  compute  their  time  on 
a  nine  hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  is  meant  by  ''all  mileage  in  excess  of 
100  miles  shall  be  paid  for  pro  rata"?  ' 

Mr.  Cadle :    What  is  meant  by  it  ? 


56 

Mr.  Stone:     What  does  it  mean? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  means  that  if  a  man  runs  one  mile  over  one 
hundred  he  will  get  the  same  amount  of  money  for  the  last  mile 
that  he  ran  as  he  did  the  first  one.  If  the  rate  was  five  dollars, 
he  would  get  five  cents. 

Mr.  Stone :  Then  it  means  computing  each  additional  mile 
above  one  hundred  at  the  rate  ])er  mile  for  the  class  of  engine? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  is  meant  by  the  sentence,  "Ten  miles 
run  will  be  the  equivalent  of  one  hour's  service  performed"? 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  a  man  runs  ten  miles,  he  would  get  his  hour 
for  it  at  the  daily  engine  rate. 

Mr.  Stone:  Suppose  you  had  a  combination  of  miles  and 
hours  both  in  the  same  trip,  how  would  it  be  computed? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Whichever  was  the  greater  under  the  ma- 
jority of  the  schedules. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  vou  know  of  anv  roads  in  the  Western 
territory  where  ten  miles  run  is  equivalent  to  one  hour's  service 
performed  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir,  there  are  a  great  many  of  them.  Very 
nearly  all  of  them.    I  think  I  have  enumerated  those. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  understand,  then,  that  this  Article,  ''In 
all  service  except  passenger  and  switching,"  would  make  a  mini- 
mum day  of  ten  hours  or  less  ! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     100  miles  or  less  for  a  day's  work? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  That  is,  all  other  service  except  passenger  and 
switching  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  "Overtime  in  road  service.  Passenger  service. 
Overtime  in  passenger  service  will  be  computed  and  paid  for 
on  a  basis  of  twenty  miles  per  hour  at  rate  for  each  class  of 
engine  used."  Do  you  know  any  road  in  the  western  country 
where  it  is  paid  that  way  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  enumerated  fourteen  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  do  not  think  you  quite  catch  the  question,  Mr. 
Cadle.  Do  these  railroads  pay  on  the  basis  of  twenty  miles  for 
each  hour  overtime,  or  on  the  basis  of  ten  miles? 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  measure  of  dav's  work  is  twentv  miles  an 


57 

hour,  or  five  hours,  and  they  pay  tlie  overtime  at  the  rate  of  ten 
miles  an  hour ;  they  allow  you  ten  miles  instead  of  twenty. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  other  words,  the  last  hour  you  work  is  not 
worth  as  much  as  the  other  five  hours  you  work! 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  it  is  only  worth  half  as  much. 

Mr.  Stone :     The  way  they  pay  it. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  request  is  that  he  be  paid  the  same,  is 
it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  "All  other  road  service.  Overtime  in  all  other 
road  service  except  passenger  and  switching  service  will  be 
computed  on  a  basis  of  ten  miles  per  hour  and  paid  for  at  the 
rate  of  15  miles  per  hour,  at  rate  for  each  class  of  engine  used." 
What  does  that  mean,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle :  That  means  that  I  would  get  the  daily  rate  for 
ten  hours  for  100  miles  or  less,  ten  hours  or  less.  If  I  earned 
an  hour's  overtime,  that  I  would  be  paid  fifteen  miles  for  it. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  is  the  object  of  the  fifteen  miles  for 
overtime  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Time  and  a  half. 

Mr.  Stone :     Why  do  we  ask  for  time  and  a  half? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  railroad  companies  are  paying  it  to  their 
shop  men  and  to  their  blacksmiths  and  boiler  makers  and  me- 
chanics. 

Mr.  Stone :  Well,  is  it  not  a  fact  it  is  largely  intended  as  a 
penalty  time  to  stop  excessive  overtime? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes.  The  engineers  and  railroad  men  call 
overtime  "blood  money."    They  don't  want  it. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  is  meant  by  the  term  "All  overtime  will 
be  computed  on  the  minute  basis"? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  that  means  that  if  I  am  10  hours  and  10 
minutes  on  the  road,  or  if  I  am  10  hours  and  6  minutes,  I  will 
get  a  mile  for  it.  The  idea  of  computing  the  time  on  the  minitte 
basis,  as  I  always  understood  it, — there  never  was  any  good 
reason  why  I  should  stay  on  a  locomotive  and  give  the  company 
30  minutes  of  my  services  without  pay,  and  there  never  was  any 
good  reason  why  a  railroad  company  should  pay  me  30  minutes 
I  did  not  work  for.     We  believe  it  is  absolutely  fair  to  pay  a 


58 

man  for  what  he  does,  for  his  work.  Now,  if  a  man  is  10  hours 
and  6  minutes  on  the  road,  he  would  get  10  hours  and  6  minutes 
pay,  or  if  he  was  on  a  mile  run,  he  would  get  101  miles  for  it. 
Six  minutes  is  equivalent  to  one  mile,  or  one  mile  is  equivalent 
to  six  minutes.  That  is  to  do  away  mtli  the  break  at  30  minutes ; 
we  have  to  w^ork  30  minutes  on  the  majority,  or  a  great  many 
railroads,  before  we  would  get  any  overtime  at  all.  That  is  the 
object  of  that  rule. 

Mr.  Stone :  Your  understanding  is  that  these  minutes  are 
cumulative,  and  that  for  each  hour  worked  a  man  gives  60 
minutes  actual  time! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  odd  minutes  are  simply  added  in  for  the 
month? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir;  they  are  added  in  to  hours  and  we 
give  the  railroad  company  60  minutes,  an  hour's  service  for  an 
hour's  pay,  an  hour's  overtime. 

Mr.  Stone :     Article  II,  rates  of  pay,  passenger  service. 

"The  rate  in  passenger  service  on  locomotives  other  than 
the  Mallet  type  weighing  less  than : 

Engineers.  Firemen. 

80,000  pounds  on  drivers,  shall  be $4.50  $2.90 

80,000  pounds  and  less  than  100,000  on  drivers 4.60  3.00 

100,000  pounds  and  less  than  140,000  pounds  on  drivers 4.80  3.15 

140,000  pounds  and  less  than  170,000  pounds  on  drivers 5.00  3.25 

170,000  pounds  and  less  than  200,000  pounds  on  drivers 5.15  3.40 

200,000  pounds  and  less  than  225,000  pounds  on  drivers 5.35  3.50 

225,000  pounds  and  less  than  250,000  pounds  on  drivers 5.50  3.65 

250,000  pounds  and  over,  on  drivers 5.60  3.75 

I  simply  read  this,  Mr.  Chairman,  in  order  to  put  it  into 
the  record.  It  is  not  our  purpose  to  go  into  the  w^eights  on 
drivers  and  the  rates  of  pay  with  this  witness.  With  one  of 
the  other  witnesses  we  will  put  on,  we  will  show  the  weights 
of  all  the  engines  in  service,  the  present  rate  of  pay,  the  rate 
of  pay  asked  for  in  that  class  of  service,  and  the  percentage 
increase. 

The  Chairman :  Well,  you  may  suggest  to  the  reporter  in 
future  when  you  have  a  case  of  that  kind,  to  include  certain 
items. 

Mr.  Stone:     To  save  reading. 

The  Chairman :     Y'es,  to  save  reading. 


59 

Mr.  Stone :  Then  I  might  suggest  that  the  entire  x\rticle  II 
may  be  incorporated,  to  save  reading,  simply  to  make  it  a  matter 
of  record. 

The  Chairman:     That  is  all  that  is  necessary. 

(The  remainder  of  Article  II  is  as  follows:) 

In  all  classes  of  service  except  passenger  and  switching 
service  on  locomotives  other  than  Mallet  type  weighing  less  than : 

Engineers.  Tiremen. 

80,000  pounds  on  drivers  shall  be $5.00  $3.25 

80,000  pounds  and  less  than  100,000  pounds  on  drivers 5.20  3.40 

100,000  pounds  and  less  than  140,000  pounds  on  drivers 5.40  3.50 

140,000  pounds  and  less  than  170,000  pounds  on  drivers 5.60  3.65 

170,000  pounds  and  less  than  200,000  pounds  on  drivers 5.80  3.75 

200,000  pounds  and  less  than  225,000  pounds  on  drivers 6.10  4.00 

225,000  pounds  and  less  than  250,000  pounds  on  drivers 6.40  4.25 

250,000  pounds  and  over  on  drivers 6.70  4.50 

Mallet  type  engines,  all  classes  of  service,  except  switching 
service,  weighing  less  than : 

Engineers.  Firemen. 

250,000  pounds  on  drivers $7.50  $4.90 

250,000  pounds  and  less  than  300,000  pounds  on  drivers 7.75  5.10 

300,000  pounds  and  less  than  400,000  pounds  on  drivers 8.00  5.25 

400,000  pounds  and  over  on  drivers 8.25  5.50 

Pusher,  Helper. 

Mine  Runs. 

Work,  Wreck. 

Belt  Line. 

Transfer,  and  All  Other  Unclassified  Service. 

Engineers  and  Firemen  on  Locomotives  in  pusher  and  helper 
service,  mine  runs,  work,  wreck,  belt  line  and  transfer  service, 
and  all  other  unclassified  service,  will  be  paid  through  freight 
rate  according  to  the  class  of  engine. 

Divisions  Where  Grade  Is  1.8%. 

On  all  divisions  where  grade  is  one  and  eight-tenths  per 
cent  or  over,  an  increase  of  ten  per  cent  over  Valley  rates  will 
be  paid. 

Narrow  Gauge  Locomotives. 

On  Roads  where  narrow-gauge  locomotives  are  in  service,  a 
five  per  cent  increase  over  present  rates  in  effect  shall  be 
granted. 


60 

Electric  Locomotives. 

Electric  either  Multiple  Unit  or  Single. 

Gasoline  or  other  Service. 

Wherever  electric,  multiple  unit,  gasoline  or  other  service  is 
installed  as  a  substitute  for  steam,  or  is  now  in  operation  on 
any  railroad  parties  to  this  agreement  or  on  any  of  the  tracks 
operated  or  controlled  by  any  of  them  as  part  of  their  system, 
the  Locomotive  Engineers  and  Firemen  shall  have  the  right  to 
the  position  of  Motorman  and  Helper,  respectively.  The  term 
*' helper"  will  be  understood  to  mean  the  second  man  employed 
on  electric  locomotives  or  other  power. 

Seniority  rights. 

Rules,  Hours  of  Service  and  Mileage. 

Seniority  rights  to  be  interchangeable.  Steam  rules,  hours 
of  service  and  mileage  to  apply  with  the  following  rates  of  pay : 

Passenger  Service. 

Motorman.  Helper. 

20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less $4,50  $3.35 

Over  20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  25,000  lbs 4.60  3.35 

Over  25,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  30,000  lbs 4.70  3.35 

Over  30,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  35,000  lbs 4.80  3.35 

Over  35,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  40,000  lbs 4.90  3.35 

Over  40,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  45,000  lbs 5.00  3.35 

Over  45,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  50,000  lbs 5.15  3.35 

Over  50,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  55,000  lbs 5.35  3.35 

Over  55,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  60,000  lbs 5.50  3.35 

Over  60,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  over 5.60  3.35 

All  other  Service  except  Passenger  and  Sivitching. 

Motorman.  Helper. 

20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less $5.00  $3.75 

Over  20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  25,000  lbs 5.20  3.75 

Over  25,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  30,000  lbs 5.30  3.75 

Over  30,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  35,000  lbs 5.40    .  3.75 

Over  35,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  40,000  lbs 5.60  3.75 

Over  40,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  45,000  lbs 5.80  3.75 

Over  45,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  50,000  lbs 6.00  3.75 

Over  50,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  55,000  lbs 6.20  3.75 

Over  55,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  60,000  lbs 6.40  3.75 

Over  60,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  65,000  lbs 6.60  3.75 

Over  65,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  70,000  lbs 6.80  3.75 

Over  70,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  over 7.00  3.75 


tv 


61 

Switching  Service. 

Motoiman.  Helper. 

20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less $4.75  $3.10 

Over  20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  40,000  lbs 5.00  3.10 

Over  40,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  60,000  lbs 5.50  3.10 

Over  60,000  lbs.  tractive  power 6.00  3.10 

Mr.  Stone:  ''Pusher,  Helper,  Mine  Runs,  Work,  Wreck, 
Belt  Line,  Transfer  and  all  other  unclassified  service. 

''Engineers  and  Firemen  on  Locomotives  in  pusher  and 
helper  service,  mine  runs,  work,  wreck,  belt  line  and  transfer 
service  and  all  other  unclassified  service,  will  be  paid  through 
freight  rate  according  to  the  class  of  engine." 

Are  there  roads  in  the  Western  territory,  Mr.  Cadle,  that 
pay  through  freight  rates  for  pusher  and  helper  service  ? 


Mr.  Cadle 


Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 


I  believe  there  are  some. 


You  haven't  a  list  of  the  roads,  have  you? 
No,  sir. 

Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  services  of  the  pusher 
and  helper  engines  are  practically  the  same  as  the  engines  in 
through  freight  service,  to  a  large  extent! 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  the  work  is  just  the  same  as  the  man 
that  runs  the  head  engine.  It  might  be  well  to  state  that  in  the 
main  the  helper  engine,  in  the  mountains,  the  helper  engine  is 
the  engine  that  couples  on  to  the  head  end  of  the  train.  He 
couples  on  to  the  regularly  assigned  man.  The  man  that  has 
the  pusher,  he  is  the  man  at  the  rear  end  of  the  train  on  these 
mountains  where  they  use  three  or  four  engines.  I  don't  see 
any  reason  why  the  man  running  a  pusher  or  the  man  running 
a  helper  on  that  train  should  not  be  entitled  to  as  much  com- 
pensation for  his  work  as  the  man  that  is  called  "the  regular 
man"  on  there.  All  three  or  four  of  them  are  coupled  on  the 
same  train  and  perform  identically  the  same  work. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  mine  run  service,  are  any  of  the  roads  pay- 
ing the  freight  rate  just  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Will  you  give  the  roads  where  they  pay  this? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes.     In  what  territory  do  vou  w^ant  it? 

Mr.  Stone:     In  tlie  Western  territory  are  there  any? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  in  the  Western  territory  we  have  the 
Chicago  &  Eastern  Illinois,  the  Colorado  &  Southern,  the  Denver 


62 

&  Rio  Grande,  the  Midland  Valley,  the  Missouri,  Oklahoma  & 
Gulf.    The  0.  R.  &  W.  pay  a  monthly  rate  of  $160. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  Southeastern  terri- 
tory that  pay  freight  rates  for  mine  run? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes.  There  are  the  Atlantic  Coast  Line,  the 
Lexington  Eastern,  the  L.  &  N.,  the  Tennessee  Central,  the 
Virginian,  and  the  Carolina,  Clinchfield  &  Ohio. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  Eastern  territory 
that  pay  freight  rates  for  mine  runf 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  forty-seven  that  were  parties  to  the 
Eastern  Arbitration  Award,  all  of  which  pay  freight  rates. 

Mr.  Stone:     It  is  the  minimum  freight  rate,  is  it  not1 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  Ai'e  work  and  wreck  trains  classed  the  same 
on  all  these  roads? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes.    The  minimum  freight  rate  applies. 
That  is,  in  the  Eastern  territory? 
Yes. 

^Vhat  are  they  in  the  Southeastern  territory? 
Work  trains? 

Work  and  w^reck  trains.    We  group  them  both 
together  because  they  are  nearly  always  the  same  on  any  road. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  26  railroads  in  the  Southeastern 
territory — 

Mr.  Stone :     That  pay  the  freight  rate  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  pay  the  freight  rate  at  a  ten  hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  Western  territory 
that  pay  the  freight  rate? 

Mr,  Cadle:  All  of  the  railroads  in  the  Western  territory 
that  I  am  acquainted  with — that  is,  a  great  portion  of  them — 
pay  the  work  trains  on  the  basis  of  ten  hours  or  less. 

Mr.  Stone:  They  pay  the  freight  rate  according  to  the 
class  of  engines,  do  they? 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  are  some  that  do  and  some  that  do  not. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  all  of  tliera  on  the  basis  of  computing- 
overtime  on  a  ten  hour  day? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  the  belt  line  service, — is  there  any  belt  line 
ser\'ice  that  is  paying  a  freight  rate! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Do  vou  mean  transfer? 


Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 


63 

Mr.  Stone:     Practically  the  same — belt  line  or  transfer. 

Mr.  Cadle:     In  the  Western  territory? 

Mr.  Stone :     Yes. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  there  are  some  of  the  railroads  that  are 
paying  the  freight  rate, 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  rules  in  the  Western  territory 
in  these  present  schedules  governing  the  unclassified  service  I 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  know  what  vou  term  unclassified 
service. 

Mr.  Stone:  Practically,  as  we  say  in  our  article  here,  ''All 
other  unclassified  service."  For  instance,  mixed  trains  are  not 
classified  on  some  roads,  and  on  some  roads  they  are  paid  one 
rate,  and  on  some  another.  It  is  not  really  a  classified  service, 
because  there  is  no  fixed  standard  for  it.  AMiat  is  the  rule  in 
regard  to  mixed  trains  in  the  Western  territory?  Are  there  any 
roads  that  pay  freight  pay  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  forty-two  railroads  in  the  Western 
territory  that  have  a  rate  fixed  for  mixed  train  service. 

Mr.  Stone :     Will  you  give  the  names  of  those  roads  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe 
Coast  Lines,  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  proper,  the  Can- 
adian Northern,  the  Canadian  Pacific,  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee 
&  St.  Paul,  Puget  Sound  lines;  the  Chicago  and  Milwaukee 
proper,  the  Chicago  &  North  Western,  the  Chicago,  Peoria  &  St. 
Louis,  the  Colorado  &  Southern,  the  Denver  &  E-io  Grande,  the 
El  Paso  &  Southwestern,  the  Fort  Worth  &  Denver,  the  Galves- 
ton, Houston  &  San  Antonio  (these  are  all  one  system),  the 
Texas  &  New  Orleans,  the  Louisiana  &  Western,  Morgan's 
Louisiana  &  Texas  Rairoad,  the  Iberia  &  Vermillion,  the  Great 
Northern,  the  Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe,  the  Houston,  East  and 
AVest  Texas,  the  Houston  &  Texas  Central,  the  Illinois  Central, 
the  International  &  Great  Northern,  the  Kansas  City  Southern, 
the  Louisiana  Rairoad  &  Navigation  Companj^,  the  Marshall  & 
East  Texas,  the  Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas  Lines,  the  Missouri 
Pacific,  the  Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf,  the  New  Orleans,  Texas 
&  Mexico  Lines,  the  Northern  Pacific,  the  Oregon  Short  Line, 
the  San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass,  the  St.  Louis,  Brownsville 
&  Mexico,  the  St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco  Lines,  the  Santa  Fe, 
Prescott  &  Phoenix,  the  Southern  Pacific  System,  the  Spokane, 
Portland  &  Seattle,  the  Texas  Midland,  the  Texas  Pacific,  the 


64 

Trinity  &  Brazos  Valley,  the  Wabash  Railroad  west  of  Detroit^ 
the  Western  Pacific,  the  AYichita  Falls,  the  Yazoo  &  Mississippi 
Valley,  the  Missouri  &  North  Arkansas,  forty-two. 

Mr.  Stone :  How  many  roads  are  there  in  the  Western  ter- 
ritory that  pay  the  through  freight  rate  for  all  mixed  train 
service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  In  the  Western  territory  there  are  twenty-nine 
railroads  that  pay  through  freight  rates  for  mixed  service. 

Mr.  Stone :    Will  you  please  give  us  a  list  of  the  roads  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  coast  lines ; 
the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  proper ;  the  Canadian  North- 
ern, the  Canadian  Pacific,  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul, 
Puget  Sound  line,  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  proper  ;^ 
the  Chicago  &  North  Western,  the  Colorado  Southern,  the  Den- 
ver &  Rio'  Grande,  The  Denver  &  Salt  Lake,  the  El  Paso  & 
SouthAvestern,  the  Fort  Worth  &  Denver  City,  the  Houston,. 
Harrison  &  San  Antonio.  You  might  call  those  the  Southern 
Pacific  Atlantic  system.  All  of  them  are  one  railroad.  Then 
there  are  the  Great  Northern,  the  Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe, 
the  Houston,  East  and  West  Texas,  the  Houston  &  Shreveport, 
the  Houston  &  Texas  Central,  the  International  &  Great  North- 
ern, the  Kansas  City  Southern,  the  Northern  Pacific,  the  Oregon 
Short  Line,  the  Santa  Fe,  Prescott  &  Phoenix,  the  Southern 
Pacific,  Pacific  System,  the  Spokane,  Portland  &  Seattle,  the 
Texas  Midland,  the  Texas  Pacific,  the  Wabash  Railroad  west  of 
Detroit,  and  the  Western  Pacific,  twenty-nine. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  Western  territory 
that  pay  local  freight  rates  for  mixed  service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  nine  railroads  in  the  west  that  pay 
local  rates  for  mixed  train  service. 

Mr.  Stone:     Will  you  please  give  us  the  names? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  Marshall  &  East  Texas,  the  Missouri^ 
Kansas  &  Texas  Lines,  the  Missouri  Pacific,  the  St.  Louis, 
Brownsville  &  Mexico,  the  Frisco  Line,  the  St.  Louis  &  San 
Francisco  Line,  the  Trinity  &  Brazos  Valley,  the  Wichita  Falls, 
the  Missouri  &  North  Arkansas,  the  San  Antonio  &  Aransas 
Pass,  nine. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  are  the  rates  in  the  Southeastern  terri- 
torv  for  mixed  train  service  ? 


^> 


65 

Mr.  Cadle:  In  the  Southeastern  territory  we  have  thirtv 
railroads  that  pay  mixed  train  service. 

Mr.  Stone:     How  are  they  paid  on  the  different  roads! 

The  Chairman:  What  do  yon  mean  by  the  term  "mixed 
train  service"? 

Mr.  Cadle:  A  train  that  lianls  freight  and  passengers,  or 
passengers  and  freight,  mixed. 

The  Chairman:  It  is  just  a  term  that  is  used  to  describe 
them? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes.  They  will  haul  freight  cars  and  coaches 
and  accommodation  cars. 

Mr.  Stone:  Now  will  you  tell  us  about  the  rates  paid  for 
mixed  train  service  in  the  Southeastern  territory.  You  said 
there  were  thirty  railroads  that  paid  a  mixed  train  rate.  I  asked 
you  about  the  other  railroads  in  the  southeastern  territory. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  is  one  railroad  in  the  southeast  that 
pays  a  mixed  train  rate,  a  fiat  rate,  ten  hour  day.  There  is  one 
railroad  that  pays  a  mixed  train  rate  of  twenty  miles  per  hour 
for  the  entire  trip.  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  local  rates 
for  mixed  train  service.  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  through 
freight  rates,  computed  on  the  basis  of  eleven  miles  an  hour. 
That  would  make  a  nine  hour  day. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  that  pay  the  through 
freight  rate  in  transfer  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  there  are  railroads  that  pay  the  through 
freight  rate  in  transfer  service. 

Mr.  Stone  (Reading):  "On  all  divisions  where  grade  is 
one  and  eight  tenths  per  cent  or  over,  an  increase  over  Valley 
rates  will  be  paid."'  Are  there  any  roads  in  this  Western  terri- 
tory that  pay  an  extra  compensation  for  mountain  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  eleven  roads  that  pay  an  increased 
rate  for  mountain  service. 

Mr.  Stone:     Will  you  please  give  them? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  coast  lines, 
the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  proper,  the  Canadian  Pacific, 
the  Chicago,  Mihvaukee  &  Puget  Sound,  the  Colorado  &  South- 
ern, the  Denver  &  Rio  Grande — 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  Denver  &  Rio  Grande, — do  you  mean 
the  entire  system  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     On  the  Colorado  lines.     Then,  there  are  the 


66 

Northern  Pacific,  the  Oregon-Washing-ton  Railroad  &  Naviga- 
tion Company,  the  Santa  Fe,  Prescott  &  Phoenix,  the  Southern 
Pacific,  Pacific  System. 

Mr.  Stone:  Can  you  give  an  exam])le  in  regard  to  how 
this  mountain  service  is  paid,  so  that  the  Board  will  understand 
what  is  meant  by  extra  compensation  for  mountain  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  These  diiTerent  railroads  have  different  wavs 
of  allowing  it.  For  example,  on  the  coast  lines  of  the  Santa  Fe, 
between  Winslow  and  Williams,  Arizona,  there  are  divisions 
where  the  actual  miles  are  92.  They  allow  them  100  miles. 
They  give  them  eight  constructive  miles  on  those  mountains, 
every  trip  over  the  road. 

On  the  Denver  &  Rio  Grande  road,  thev  have  a  fixed  rate 
per  mile  for  mountain  service.  In  mountain  territory,  where 
the  daily  rate  might  be  $4.60,  for  the  actual  miles  run  on  the 
mountains  you  would  get  just  twice  46  cents  an  hour  for  that, 
for  the  mileage  on  those  mountains. 

On  the  Southern  Pacific  Railroad,  they  allow  constructive 
mileage.  For  instance,  the  actual  miles  of  the  run  over  moun- 
tain territory  might  be  97  miles,  and  they  would  allow  them, 
in  some  instances,  perhaps,  118  miles  or  120  miles,  so  that  they 
get  an  increased  rate  of  pay.  On  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  & 
Puget  Sound  they  allow  their  freight  engineers  on  the  moun- 
tains twelve  constructive  miles  each  trip  in  freight  service.  In 
passenger  service,  they  allow  them  six  constructive  miles.  Now, 
that  is  added  on  to  their  daily  rate.  You  might  run  90  miles  on 
passenger  service  in  the  mountain  territory  and  for  that  you 
would  get  a  full  day,  a  full  100  miles  and  the  six  constructive 
miles,  or,  in  other  words,  you  would  get  106  miles  for  your  day's 
work  in  that  mountain  territory. 

Mr.  Stone :  Then,  the  practice  of  allowing  either  additional 
miles  or  extra  compensation  for  mountain  service  is  common  on 
these  western  roads,  is  it  not! 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     On  roads  that  have  mountain  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  they  pay  additional  compensation. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  there  a  difference  in  the  rates  of  pay  be- 
tween mountain  and  valley  service  on  the  narrow  gauge  lines  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Denver  &  Rio  Grande  increase  the  rate  of 
pay  on  their  Colorado  lines. 


67 

Mr.  Stone :     What  does  the  Colorado  &  Southern  do? 

Mr.  Cadle :     It  has  increased  the  mountain  rate. 

Mr.  Stone :  When  the  grade  is  very  steep,  they  have  a  very 
much  shorter  basis  for  a  day's  work,  do  they  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Colorado  &  Southern  have  a  44  mile  day  in 
mountain  service  and  an  85  mile  day  in  their  valley  service. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  narrow  gauge  part  of  the  Colorado  & 
Southern  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone  (Reading):  "On  roads  where  narrow  gauge 
locomotives  are  in  service  a  five  per  cent  increase  over  present 
rates  in  effect  shall  be  granted." 

The  Chairman:  A  member  of  the  Board  desires  to  ask  a 
question. 

Mr.  Stone:     Certainly. 

Mr.  Burgess:  I  understood  you  to  say,  on  that  example 
running  out  of  Winslow,  Arizona,  the  engineer  ran  92  miles  and 
got  100  miles  on  liis  mountain  run. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  that  is  one  example.  They  have  a  great 
many  runs,  but  I  gave  tliat  for  an  example  of  the  way  they  in- 
creased the  rate  of  pay  on  mountain  service. 

Mr.  Burgess:  I  did  not  understand  whether  vou  meant  100 
miles  or  108  miles,  because  the  engineer  would  get  100  miles  if  he 
ran  only  92  miles  in  a  level  territory. 

Mr.  Cadle:  He  gets  eight  constructive  miles.  For  his  92 
miles  lie  will  be  allowed  100  miles,  and  he  will  get  his  eight  con- 
structive miles  in  addition. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Then  you  intended  to  say  that  he  would  get 
108  miles  for  the  92  mile  run,  instead  of  100  miles? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel :     I  think  you  said  106. 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  was  another  example. 

Mr.  Burgess:  I  think  the  record  will  show  that  he  said  he 
would  only  get  100  miles,  when  he  really  intended  to  say  that  he 
would  get  108  miles,  on  that  example. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  think  perhaps  you  could  make  it  plainer  to 
the  Board  if  you  would  take  an  example  of  where  the  mileage  is 
over  100  miles,  for  example,  between  Winslow  and  Ashfork  on 
the  Santa  Fe,  where  the  actual  miles  are  115,  and  they  are  al- 


6S 

lowed  129  miles  for  the  trip,  an  addition  of  fourteen  eonstruetive 
miles. 

Mr.  Park:  Is  there  not  another  system  of  paying  on 
mountain  grades  largely  in  vogue,  for  instance,  on  the  Santa  Fe 
or  the  Burlington? 

Mr.  Cadle:     In  mountain  territory? 

Mr.  Park:     Yes. 

Mr.  Cadle:     They  may  increase  the  rate  on  the  engine. 

Mr.  Park:     Are  you  familiar  with  the  Santa  Fe? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Park :  Does  the  same  class  of  engine  running  out  of 
Kansas  City  pay  the  same  running  out  of  Trinidad? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:     That  is  what  1  was  getting  at. 

Mr.  Cadle:     We  are  speaking  about  mountain  roads  now. 

Mr.  Park:  That  would  be  a  higher  rate  for  the  same  class 
of  engines. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes.  East  of  La  Junta  to  Chicago,  they  call 
that  "valley  rates,"  on  the  Santa  Fe,  and  they  have  a  ditferent 
rate  there. 

Mr.  Park:  That  is  still  another  system  of  paying  the 
mountain  mileage? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:     Different  from  all  you  have  described. 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:     Really,  it  is  not  constructive  mileage. 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  do  not  quite  understand  you. 

Mr.  Park:  An  engine  of  a  certain  weight  on  the  drivers, 
running  out  of  Kansas  City  on  the  Santa  Fe,  in  the  valley,  is  paid 
a  certain  rate. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Park:  That  engine  running  on  the  mountain  is  paid 
a  higher  rate? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Park:     The  same  engine? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  ]*ark:  And  that  is  not  constructive  mileage.  That  is 
regular  mileage  on  a  higher  rate. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

The  Chairman:     Proceed. 


69 

Mr.  Stone :  I  miglit  also  add,  if  I  may  be  allowed  to,  that  on 
some  of  the  western  roads,  where  the  grade  is  over  a  certain  per 
cent,  there  is  an  allowance  of  a  certain  percentage  increase  for 
a  certain  class  engine,  but  the  grade  fixes  the  rate  that  the  engine 
would  carry. 

I  would  also  like  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Board  to  the  fact 
that,  when  you  get  the  mountain  service,  it  is  a  much  shorter  day. 
For  instance,  it  is  forty-five  miles,  or  fifty  miles,  in  mountain 
service  for  a  day's  work  as  against  100  miles,  or  ten  hours 
in  the  valley,  (Beading)  : 
"Electric  Locomotives.  Electric  Either  Multiple  Unit  or  Single, 

Gasoline  or  Other  Service. 

''Wherever  electric,  multiple  unit,  gasoline  or  other  service 
is  installed  as  a  substitute  for  steam,  or  is  now  in  operation  on 
any  railroad  parties  to  this  agreement  or  on  any  of  the  tracks 
operated  or  controlled  by  any  of  them  as  part  of  their  system, 
the  Locomotive  Engineers  and  Firemen  shall  have  the  right  to 
the  position  of  Motorman  and  Helper,  respectively.  The  term 
'helper'  will  be  understood  to  mean  the  second  man  employed  on 
electric  locomotive  or  other  power. 

"Seniority  rights;  rules,  hours  of  service  and  mileage. 

' '  Seniority  rights  to  be  interchangeable.  Steam  rules,  hours 
of  service  and  mileage  to  apply  with  the  following  rates  of  pay : 

Passenger  Service. 

Motorman.  Helper. 

20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less $4.50  $3.35 

Over  20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  25,000  lbs 4.60  3.35 

Over  25,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  30,000  lbs 4.70  .      3.35 

Over  30,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  35,000  lbs 4.80  3.35 

Over  35,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  40,000  lbs 4.90  3.35 

Over  40,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  45,000  lbs 5.00  3.35 

Over  45,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  50,000  lbs 5.15  3.35 

Over  50,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  55,000  lbs 5.35  3.35 

Over  55,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  60,000  lbs 5.50  3.35 

60,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and   over 5.60  3.35 

All  Other  Service  Except  Passenger  and  Switching. 

Motorman.       Helper. 

20,000  lbs.   tractive  power   and  less $5.00  $3.75 

Over  20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  25,000  lbs 5.20  3.75 

Over  25,000  lbs.  tactive  power  and  less  than  30,000  lbs 5.30  3.75 

Over  30,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  35,000  lbs 5.40  3.75 

Over  35,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  40,000  lbs 5.60  3.75 

Over  40,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  45,000  lbs 5.80  3.75 


70 

Motorinan.        Helper. 

Over  45,000  lbs.  tiacti\e  power  and  less  than  50,000  lbs 6.00  3.75 

Over  50,000  lbs.  tractive  power  aud  less  than  55,000  lbs 6.20  3.75 

Over  55,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  60,000  lbs 6.40  3.75 

Over  60,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  65,000  lbs 6.60  3.75 

Over  65,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  70,000  lbs 6.80  3.75 

70,000  lbs.   tractive  power   and   over 7.00  3.75 

Sivitching  Service. 

Motorman.  Helper. 

20,000   lbs.   tractive  power   and   less $4.75  $3.10 

Over  20,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  40,U00  lbs 5.00  3.10 

Over  40,000  lbs.  tractive  power  and  less  than  60,000  lbs 5.50  3.10 

60,000  lbs.   tractive  power  and   over 6.00  3.10 

Mr.  Stone :  I  simply  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  we 
ask  that  the  seniority  rights  be  interchanged.  Steam  rules,  hours 
of  service  and  mileage  to  apply.  We  have  that  at  the  present 
time,  have  we  not,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  How  is  motor  car  service  compensated  for  in 
tlie  western  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  26  railroads  in  the  western  territory 
that  have  a  fixed  rate  of  pay  in  their  agreements  for  this  class  of 
service. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  are  those  roads  that  have  this  rate  of 
pay  for  motor  car  service?  I  might  add,  if  the  Board  will  per- 
mit, that  there  are  two  classes  of  motor  cars  in  the  western 
territory,  the  gasoline  motor  car  and  the  gasoline  electric.  They 
are  both  covered  in  this  same  article.  There  are  also  the  mul- 
tiple unit  electric  trains  that  are  used  in  the  suburban  service 
of  the  terminal  at  Oakland,  San  Francisco,  and  the  electric 
motors,  that  are  really  electric  locomotives,  that  are  in  use  today 
on  some  of  our  roads  liandlinir  heavv  trains  through  the  tun- 
nels. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Those  lines  are  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe, 
Coast  Line,  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  proper,  the  Chi- 
cago, Burlington  &  Quincy,  the  Chicago  Great  Western,  the  Chi- 
cago, Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  Puget  Sound  Lines,  the  Chicago  & 
Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  proper.  The  Chicago  &  North  Western, 
the  Chicago,  Kock  Island  &  Pacific,  the  Chicago,  St.  Paul,  Minne- 
apolis &  Omaha,  the  Denevr,  Laramie  &  North  Western,  the 
Denver  &  Rio  Grande,  the  El  Paso  &  Southeastern,  the  Ft. 


71 

Dodge,  Des  Moines  Southern,  Great  Northern  Railroad,  Mis- 
souri, Oklahoma  «&  Gulf,  New  Orleans,  Texas  &  Mexico,  Northern 
Pacific,  Northwestern  Pacific,  Oregon  Short  Line,  San  Pedro, 
Los  Angeles  &  Salt  Lake,  St.  Louis,  Brownsville  &  Mexico, 
Southern  Pacific  System,  St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco  lines,  Texas 
Pacific,  Union  Pacific,  St.  Louis  &  Southwestern  Lines.  That 
is  all.    That  is  26  of  them. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  western  territory 
where  the  seniority  is  interchangeable  between  the  steam  and 
electric  service! 

Mr.  Cadle:  All  of  the  railroads  that  were  parties  to  the 
concerted  movement  of  1910,  as  I  understand  it,  were  given  a 
rule  that  when  they  install  that  service,  when  there  is  a  sufficient 
number  of  engineers  qualified  to  fill  the  positions,  that  they 
would  be  given  that  work,  and  their  seniority  would  be  inter- 
changeable. 

Mr.  Stone:  Speaking  of  these  26  roads  in  the  west  that 
have  a  fixed  rate  of  pay,  are  there  any  other  roads  in  the  western 
territory? 

Mr.  Cadle :  About  that  fixed  rate  of  pay — there  are  a  good 
many  of  these  railroads  that  have  no  motor  car  service,  but 
they  have  a  rule  in  their  schedule  that,  if  they  install  that  serv- 
ice, it  will  be  given  to  the  locomotive  engineer.  Now,  you  take 
those  schedules,  a  great  number  of  them,  and  you  will  find  that 
they  have  not  got  any  fixed  rate  that  they  pay  for  the  engineers. 
They  have  the  rule  in  there  that  they  will  have,  but  the  railroads 
where  they  have  put  the  motor  car  service,  or  that  service,  in 
effect,  have  fixed  a  rate  of  pay  for  the  engineer. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  other  words,  they  have  recognized  the  right 
of  the  engineer  to  operate  the  service,  and  have  agreed  with  the 
committee  representing  the  engineers  and  firemen — represent- 
ing the  engineers,  for  a  rate  of  pay  for  the  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Can  you  give  us  some  idea  of  the  rate  of  pay 
that  is  in  effect  on  some  of  the  roads  in  the  west,  where  they 
have  this  motor  car  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  two  railroads  in  the  west  that  pay 
$3.90  for  100  miles  or  less.  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays 
$4.20  for  one  hundred  miles  or  less.    There  is  one  railroad  that 


72 

agrees  to  use  locomotive  engineers — really  use  locomotive  engi- 
neers to  operate  any  class  of  power  that  maj^  be  used  for — 
substituted  for — steam  power,  and  they  agree  to  pay  them  the 
going  rate,  the  same  rate  on  locomotives. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  other  words,  the  engineer  would  get  the 
same  rate  for  running  a  motor  car  on  that  road  as  he  would  for 
a  steam  locomotive! 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  and  under  the  same  working  rules  and 
conditions.  There  are  three  railroads  that  pay  $3.15  for  100 
miles  or  less.    There  is  one  that  pays  $4.40  for  ten  miles  or  less. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  those  roads  you  just  spoke  of,  what  is  the 
basis  for  a  day's  pay  in  computing  overtime? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Ten  hours,  100  miles  or  less,  ten  hours  or  less 
shall  constitute  a  day's  work. 

Mr.  Stone :     Well,  when  does  the  time  for  computing  begin  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  One  hour  before  leaving  time  on  those  six 
roads.     One  hour  liefore  the  leaving  time  with  their  cars. 

Mr.  Stone :     You  mean  the  schedule  time  of  the  train ! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :     All  right. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Tliere  is  one  railroad  that  pays  $4.40  for  ten 
hours  or  less. 

There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  $4.40,  44  cents  an  hour 
overtime ;  an  electric  suburl)an  service.  The  length  of  the  dav 
varies. 

There  are  two  railroads  that  jiay  $4.40  for  ten  hours  or 
less ;  overtime  44  cents  an  hour,  and  compute  their  time  one 
hour  after  the  schedule  of  first  trip  to  end. 

Mr.  Stone:     One  hour  after  the  schedule,  or  before? 

Mr.  Cadle :  One  hour  before  the  departure  on  their  begin- 
ning of  their  day,  and  to  end  on  the  arrival  at  terminal  on  their 
final  trip. 

There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  $4.20  a  day  for  100  miles  or 
less,  all  previous  schedules  governing  steam  rates  to  apply  on 
motor  car  service. 

There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  $4.15  for  100  miles  or  less 
for  handling  steam  cars,  and  $4.00  per  100  miles  or  less  for 
handling  gasoline  cars. 

There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  a  motorman  33  cents  an 
hour  on  passenger  and  35  cents  an  hour  on  freight.    Five  cents 


73 

a  mile  acUlod  to  the  schedules  of  above  when  in  snow  plow 
service,  and  $5  a  month  extra  when  they  handle  United  States 
mail  in  those  cars. 

There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  $4,40  per  100  miles  or  less 
to  motormen  in  passenger  service  on  gasoline  cars.  They  pay 
$4.90, 100  miles  or  less,  to  motormen  on  electric  cars  and  helpers, 
with  10  cents  increase  between  given  points. 

Mr.  Stone:     Do  you  mean  10  cents  or  10  per  cent? 

Mr,  Cadle:  10  per  cent,  and  on  grades  of  1,8  per  cent  or 
greater,  that  is  that  10  per  cent,  with  10  per  cent  increase  be- 
tween points  on  grades  of  1.8  per  cent  or  greater,  the  rules  reg- 
ulating steam  rates  shall  apply.  There  is  one  road  that  pays  a 
monthly  rate  of  $130,  seniority  interchangeable  between  steam 
and  motor  cars.  There  is  one  road  that  pays  $137.15  for  a  cal- 
endar month.  For  a  mileage  in  excess  of  5,000  miles  a  month, 
they  will  draw  2,74  cents  per  mile.  They  are  allowed  $2.50  per 
day  of  10  hours  and  30  minutes  to  qualify  for  these  cars. 

Mr.  Stone :  Pardon  me,  Mr.  Cadle.  I  think  you  are  getting 
confused  on  that.  If  I  maj^  be  allowed  to  correct  him- — I  don't 
want  to  transgress  any  of  the  rules,  I  do  not  want  to  do  anything 
that  isn't  correct  and,  yet,  I  realize  that  a  man  dealing  with 
this  many  schedules  is  liable  to  be  mixed  up  a  little  bit  on  them. 

The  Chairman:  You  may  make  any  suggestions  that  are 
calculated  to  correct  it. 

Mr.  Stone:  He  said  they  are  allowed  $2.50  per  day  to 
qualify  for  these  cars.  That  is  not  exactly  correct.  He  is  al- 
lowed $2.50  per  day  of  10  hours  for  30  days  for  learning  the 
service. 

Mr,  Cadle:  That  is  it,  he  goes  into  the  shop  to  learn  to 
handle  one  of  these  motor  cars  and  he  is  paid  $2,50  a  day  for 
thirty  days  to  qualify  to  fill  one  of  those  positions.  He  gains 
his  knowledge  right  in  the  shop  where  they  build  the  cars. 
There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  $132.50  for  a  calendar  month. 
There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  46  cents  an  hour  for  a  nine  hour 
day  in  handling  electric  cars,  and  the  seniority  is  interchange- 
able. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  know  what  the  men  who  handle  the 
electric  locomotives  are  allowed  to  do,  whether  their  work  is 
interchangeable  with  steam,  whether  the  seniority  is  inter- 
changeable or  not? 


74 

Mr.  Cadle:     In  what  territory? 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  Great  Northern.  I  think  that  is  the 
only  road  in  the  northwest  where  there  are  electric  locomotives 
at  the  present  time. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir,  that  is  my  opinion.  I  think  the  senior- 
ity is  interchangeable. 

Mr.  Stone  (reading) : 

"Article  III.  Local  or  Way  Freight  Service.  Local  trains 
are  way  freight  or  mixed  trains  whose  work  is  the  loading  or 
unloading  of  freight  or  doing  station  switching  enroute." 

I  imagine,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  other  side  will  disagree  with 
us  as  to  the  definition  of  what  constitutes  a  local  freight.  The 
point  I  want  to  bring  out  by  this  witness  is  that  we  do  liave  a 
local  freight  rate  in  the  western  territory.  The  only  question 
is  the  difference  as  to  what  constitutes  a  local  train.  The  article 
I  read  part  of  has  an  additional  paragraph  (reading) : 

"Engineers  and  Firemen  on  such  trains  will  be  paid  ten 
per  cent  increase  over  through  freight  rates."  That  is  our  re- 
quest. 

(Addressing  the  witness) :  Do  you  know  of  any  roads  in 
the  western  territory,  Mr.  Cadle,  that  pay  an  extra  rate  for  local 
service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  a  great  many  railroads  that  pay  a 
differential  of  25  cents,  100  miles,  in  local  service. 

Mr.  Stone :  Will  you  give  the  names  of  them  ?  Have  you 
the  names  of  them?  We  will  pass  that,  at  this  time:  it  is  evi- 
dently a  mistake  and  was  left  out  of  the  check  we  have.  I  know 
there  are  a  number  of  roads  in  the  western  territory  that  ]iay  an 
increased  rate  in  local  freight  service. 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  western  concerted  movement,  in  1910, 
awarded  us  25  cents  differential  on  all  these  roads  that  were 
parties  to  that  agreement  in  the  western  territory.  Now,  there 
are  railroads  where  they  pay  the  10  per  cent.  I  think  the  Nortli  - 
ern  Pacific  Kailroad  pays  the  10  per  cent  .additional  for  their 
local  service. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  was  the  award  in  the  eastern  territory, 
do  you  know? 

Mr.  Cadle :  They  paid  the  25  cents  differential  in  the  east- 
ern territory.  Yes,  sir,  they  awarded  you  25  cents  differential, 
100  miles  or  less,  in  the  eastern  territorv. 

7  • 


*^ 


75 

Mr.  Stone:  AVliat  do  they  do  in  the  southeastern  territory, 
do  you  recall  f 

Mr.  Cadle:  In  the  southeastern  territory,  the  majority  of 
tlie  roads  have  a  local  rate,  the  majority  of  them  pay  $5.75,  100 
miles  or  less,  10  hours  or  less, 

Mr.  Stone :  What  is  the  prevailing  practice  for  local  freight 
service  in  the  southeastern  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  ranges  from  $5.75  to  $6  a  day.  You  take  the 
Mallets,  they  pay  $60.0  and  $6.10,  and  the  principal  rate  for  local 
freight  service  in  the  southeastern  territory  is  $5.75  a  day,  for 
ten  hours  or  less. 

Mr.  Stone :  As  against  the  same  class  of  engine  in  through 
freight  service,  or  what?    Could  you  give  an  estimate  of  that? 

Mr.  Cadle :     $5.15  and  $5.40. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  you  familiar  with  the  definitions  in  the 
western  territory?  I  realize  you  haven't  the  notes  to  refer  to. 
Are  you  familiar  with  the  conditions  as  to  what  comprise  way 
freight  service  on  the  different  roads  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  class  of  service,  do  you  mean? 

Mr.  Stone :  No,  the  definition  of  what  constitutes  a  wav 
freight  or  a  local  freight  train.  Are  there  any  roads  that  have  a 
rule  defining  what  is  a  local  freight  train? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  there  are  railroads  that  have  different 
rules.  The  train  that  does  the  switching,  all  the  station  switch- 
ing en  route,  between  terminals,  handles  package  stuff,  unloads 
and  loads  w^ay  freight. 

Mr.  Stone:  At  how  many  points  would  they  have  to  load 
or  unload  way  freight,  in  order  to  be  a  local  freight  train? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Through  freight,  do  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Stone :  Any  regular  train,  in  order  to  be  classed  as  a 
local  train? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  some  of  the  schedules  in  the  south- 
east that  provide  that,  where  a  man  unloads  way  freight  at  two 
or  three  stations,  it  shall  be  classed  as  a  local  freight  train. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  west  that  have  such 
a  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Not  that  I  know  of.  Yes,  there  are  some 
schedules  that  have  a  rule  that  classifies  the  number  of  stations. 

Mr.  Stone  (Reading) :  ''Additional  pay.  Through  or  ir- 
regular freight  trains  doing  work  such  as  loading  or  unloading 


76 

freight,  stock  or  company  material,  switching  at  stations,  spurs, 
mines,  mills,  or  required  to  pick  up  or  set  out  cars,  unless  cars 
to  be  set  out  are  switched  together  at  terminals,  or  doing  any 
other  similar  work,  shall  be  paid  for  same  at  overtime  rates  in 
addition  to  time  or  mileage  made  on  the  trip." 

Now,  in  the  irregular  freight  service  in  the  west,  Mr.  Cadle, 
are  there  any  roads  where  this  work  mentioned  here  is  paid  for  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir,  there  are  some  of  the  railroads  that 
pay  for  it. 

Mr.  Stone :     Have  you  a  list  of  the  roads  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  common  practice  on  many  of  our 
western  roads  to  pay  for  the  loading  or  unloading  of  stock,  in 
addition  to  the  irregular  trip? 


Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 


Yes,  sir. 

Or  for  the  icing  of  refrigerators? 
Yes,  sir. 

Is  it  not  also  a  fact  that,  on  many  of  the  roads, 
they  pay  for  doing  what  is  known  as  commercial  switching,  out- 
side of  the  working  of  the  trains  at  the  various  points  enroute  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Or,  for  the  loading  or  unloading  of  company 
material  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  west  that  pay  for 
picking  up  or  setting  out  cars,  when  they  are  not  switched 
together  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  don't  just  remember. 

Mr.  Stone:     You  don't  recall  any? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir.    There  are  in  the  east. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  a  fact  on  many  roads  you  are  required 
to  switch  the  train  in  station  order  and  bring  it  into  the  terminal 
switched  in  station  order,  on  freight  trains? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  railroads  that  required  crews  to  do 
that,  when  their  yards  were  congested,  I  understood. 

Mr.  Stone  (Beading) :  "Article  IV.  Switching  Service, 
Rates  of  Pay. 

Engineers.  Firemen. 

Engines  weighing  le?s  than  140,000  lbs.  on  drivers    $4.75  $3.10 

Engines  weighing  140,000  lbs.  and  over  on  drivers    5.00  3.25 

Mallet  type  engines 6.00  4.00 


77 

Engineers  and  firemen  required  to  begin  service  other  than  be- 
tween the  hours  of  6  A.  M.  and  8  A.  M.  will  be  paid  2  cents  per 
hour,  in  addition  to  above  rate." 

Do  you  know  of  any  roads  in  the  western  country  where 
they  are  using  the  Mallet  type  of  engine  in  switching  service ! 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Before  you  turn  to  that,  do  you  propose  to 
give  us  a  rule  for  our  adoption  by  which  it  is  to  be  determined 
whether  a  through  freight  has  been  converted  into  a  local 
freight,  in  a  particular  case!  I  get  no  impression  from  this  so 
far,  at  all. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  realize  that,  because,  in  checking  up,  for  some 
unknown  cause,  there  is  nothing  about  local  freights  in  the  notes. 

Mr.  Nagel:  You  have  told  us  you  do  not  agree,  but  you 
have  not  told  us  how  we  are  to  reconcile  the  disagreement? 

Mr.  Stone :  I  think  we  can  submit  something  a  little  later 
that  perhaps  will  bring  out  our  side  of  it,  at  least.  I  am  sure 
the  other  side  will  present  something  that  will  prove  to  you  that 
there  is  no  such  thing  as  a  local  freight  in  the  western  country. 

Mr.  Nagel:     Then  we  can  expect  that  hereafter. 

Mr.  Stone:  Yes,  sir;  we  will  try  to  prepare  it  for  you. 
(Addressing  the  witness.)  Do  you  know  of  any  class  of  yard 
service  that  receives  an  additional  rate  for  night  work  or  where 
they  are  not  in  the  day  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :      That  is,  engineers  and  firemen  do  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  all  the  switch  foremen  and 
switchmen  receive  higher  rates  for  yard  service  at  night? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  think  so.  Their  schedules  make  a  differential 
at  night. 

Mr.  Stone  (Reading)  :  ''Ten  hours  or  less  will  constitute  a 
day's  work  in  switching  service.  Time  to  be  computed  contin- 
uousl}^,  all  over  ten  hours  to  be  computed  and  paid  for  at  the  rate 
of  time  and  one-half.  All  overtime  to  be  computed  on  minute 
basis." 

In  what  way  does  that  differ  from  our  present  rule,  what  is 
generally  known  as  the  standard  rule!  It  is  continuous  service, 
is  it  not?    That  is  the  only  difference  from  the  present  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  is  all. 


78 

Mr.  Stone:  It  might  be  well  to  explain  to  tlie  Board  what 
is  meant  by  continuous  service. 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  a  man  starts  to  work  at  7  o'clock  in  tlie 
morning  and  works  until  6  o'clock  in  tlie  evening,  that  would 
be  continuous,  without  any  break. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  present  practice  on  most  of  these  roads,  is 
it  not,  is  to  deduct  the  dinner  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  other  words,  a  man  is  really  on  duty  11 
hours  and  is  paid  for  10;  one  hour  is  deducted  for  meals. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  a  man  is  always — a  man  in  switching 
service,  where  he  is  paid  for  the  dinner  hour,  he  does  give  the 
company  30  minutes,  on  a  great  many  schedules.  The  company 
is  willing  to  give  him  11  hours  pay,  where  he  works  a  portion 
of  the  dinner  hour;  some  of  them  as  much  as  30  minutes  and 
some  of  them  less. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  is,  if  he  works  any  part  of  the  dinner 
hour? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes.  But  if  he  does  not  work  that,  of  course  he 
starts  to  work  at  7  o'clock  in  the  morning  and  quits  at  6  o'clock 
in  the  evening  and  is  gi^en  his  dinner  h.our  out,  and  he  gets  ten 
hours  pay  for  it. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  men  are  often  released  for 
the  dinner  hour  at  some  outlying  point  where  they  are  practi- 
cally comiielled  to  watch  their  engine? 

]\Ir.  Cadle:  Well,  the  men  are  given  their  dinner  hour  nf 
outside  ])oints  and  some  companies  have  established  the  practice 
of  relieving  men  out  on  the  side  ti-acks ;  that  is,  blocking  tiieir 
engines  and  releasing  them  during  the  dinner  hour. 

Mr.  Stone :  But,  the  man  is  away  from  the  shop  and  he  is 
awav  from  his  meals,  is  he  not?  He  is  awav  from  his  home? 
He  cannot  possibly  get  a  warm  meal? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  A\"hat  is  meant  by  the  overtime  being  com- 
puted and  paid  for  at  the  rate  of  time  and  one-half,  the  same 
explanation  as  you  made  for  the  freight  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir,  it  means  time  and  a  half  for  overtime. 

Mr.  Stone  (Reading) :  "All  overtime  to  be  computed  on  a 
minute  basis."  The  same  explanation  for  that  as  you  made  for 
the  road  service? 


79 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  a  great  many  railroads  now  in  the 
western  eonntry  that  pay  the  overtime  rate  on  a  minute  basis? 

Mr.  Stone  :     In  switching-  service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir.  It  is  a  rule  that  has  been  in  effect  on 
some  of  the  railroads  for  eight  or  nine  or  ten  years. 

Mr.  Stone:  (Reading.)  "Meals.  Switch  engineers  and 
iiremen  will  not  be  required  to  work  longer  than  six  consecutive 
hours  without  being  allowed  30  minutes  undisturbed  for  meals." 

Why  is  that  put  in  this  article,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Why,  it  is  put  in  there?  There  are  several  rea- 
sons. In  the  first  place,  six  hours  is  long  enough  for  a  man  to 
work  without  eating.  There  are  some  of  the  railroads  that  will 
work  a  man  seven  hours,  or  seven  hours  and  a  half.  They  work 
them  past  the  meal  hours.  A  great  many  of  our  yard  engineers 
that  are  not  married  board  by  the  month  or  board  by  the  week 
and,  if  you  work  a  man  until  2  o  'clock  in  the  afternoon,  why,  at 
the  boarding  house  the  meals  are  closed  and  you  put  him  to  the 
additional  expense  of  going  into  some  restaurant  and  getting  his 
meals  and,  then,  another  thing,  men  starting  out  to  work  at  7 
o'clock  in  the  morning,  where  you  call  them  an  hour  and  a  half 
before  leaving  time,  and  they  are  required  to  report  at  certain 
times,  they  will  get  up  at  5  o'clock  in  the  morning  and  get  their 
breakfast  and,  if  you  work  them  seven  or  eight  hours,  the  men 
are  not  in  very  good  shape  to  do  any  work ;  they  want  something 
to  eat ;  and,  there  has  been  a  great  deal  of  difficulty  all  around 
the  country,  not  so  much  in  the  last  few  years  as  there  was  pre- 
viously, but  there  have  been  switch  engineers  who  have  worked 
until  4  o'clock  in  the  afternoon,  or  3  o'clock  in  the  afternoon 
without  meals,  and  of  course  they  complained  of  it  and  it  be- 
came necessary  for  their  organizations  to  make  agreements  with 
the  railroads,  asking  them  to  release  them  within  a  reasonable 
number  of  hours,  so  that  they  might  get  their  meals.  Now  the 
railroads  have  done  very  well  toward  them.  In  very  nearly  all 
of  the  schedules  that  we  have  with  railroads,  they  have  been  very 
liberal.  A  good  many  of  our  railroads  that  I  have  dealt  with'the 
managers  of,  that  I  have  dealt  with  on  the  dinner  hour  question, 
they  were  just  as  anxious  to  get  those  men  off  at  a  regular  hour 
for  their  meals,  because  they  believed  they  would  be  better  men, 
do  better  work  for  the  com])any,  if  they  would  have  their  meals. 
Those  are  the  reasons  why  we  asked  to  have  that  rule  made 


80 

eifective,  so  that  the  men  can  be  released  for  meals  and  have  an 
opportunity  to  go  and  get  their  means  at  the  meal  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:  (Reading.)  "Road  Engine,  used.  When  road 
engines  are  used  in  yard  service,  road  rates  will  apply," 

"What  was  the  idea  in  putting  that  in  the  request? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  don 't  know.  I  have  handled  a  road  engine  in 
switching  in  the  yard  and  I  had  rather  have  a  switch  engine. 
In  the  iirst  place,  a  road  engine  is  very  unhandy  to  handle,  a 
great  many  of  them.  AVhen  I  was  running  switch  engines,  they 
had  high  tanks,  it  was  hard  to  see  out  over  them  and  that  in- 
creased your  responsibility.  That  is,  I  have  known  a  great  many 
men  to  get  into  trouble  handling  road  engines,  switching  in  a 
yard.  The  arrangements  on  the  inside  of  the  cab  are  not  as  con- 
venient on  a  road  engine  as  on  a  switch  engine,  because  when 
you  have  got  a  regular  switch  engine,  they  make  it  as  convenient 
as  possible,  so  you  can  handle  that  engine  and  get  the  signals. 
With  a  road  engine,  some  of  them,  thej^  are  not  so  convenient  for 
doing  switching  service.  Consequently  the  railroads  have  al- 
ways been  willing  to  pay  a  differential  when  they  did,  and  a  great 
many  of  them  have  got  that,  they  pay  a  differential  when  they 
use  road  engines. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  find  it  quite  common  in  the  southeastern 
territory,  do  you  not,  that  they  pay  differential  where  they  use 
the  road  engines'? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir.    In  the  eastern  territorv  thev  awarded 

7  •I 

US  that  25  cents  differential. 

Mr.  Stone:  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  the  principal  objection  is 
because  the  boiler  is  so  large  and  the  cab  so  narrow  there  is  no 
room  for  reversing,  without  walking  the  length  of  the  cab  every 
time  you  have  to  reverse  the  engine  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  are  not  arranged  conveniently  on  the  in- 
side to  do  switching.  Some  years  ago  they  had  a  pilot  on  the 
front,  but  now  the  government,  I  believe,  has  fixed  it  up  so  that 
they  have  got  to  put  steps  on  them.  That  objection  of  course  is 
eliminated  to  a  certain  degree. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  only  wish  it  was  possible  for  the  members 
of  the  Board  who  are  not  perhaps  as  familiar  with  the  different 
types  of  engines  as  some  of  the  rest  of  us  are,  to  see  the  ar- 
rangement in  the  cabs  of  some  of  these  road  engines,  and  some 
of  the  yard  engines.     Especially  is  that  true  of  the  larger  en- 


81 

gines  that  have  the  screw  reverse  lever,  instead  of  the  old  style 
lever  and,  then,  imagine,  if  you  can,  a  man  out  in  a  yard  trying 
to  switch  with  one  of  the  big,  modern  type  of  locomotives  with 
the  screw  reverse,  where  it  takes  16  or  17  turns  of  the  wheel  to 
reverse  the  engine.    (Reading) : 

Article  V.     Preparatory  Time. 

"Engineers  and  firemen  in  all  classes  of  service  will  be  al- 
lowed thirty  minutes  as  preparatory  time  in  addition  to  all  other 
time  or  mileage  made  on  the  trip  or  day,  at  the  pro  rata  rate 
corresponding  with  class  of  locomotive  and  service;  provided, 
that  on  lines  of  railroad  where  rules  or  schedules  require  them  to 
be  on  duty  more  than  thirtj^^  minutes  before  time  ordered  to  leave 
roundhouse  or  other  point,  they  will  be  allowed  one  hour's  time, 
and  when  required  to  be  on  duty  more  than  one  hour,  actual 
time  will  be  allowed.  Preparatory  time  will  be  the  time  en- 
gineers and  firemen  are  required  to  be  on  their  locomotives, 
prior  to  time  ordered  to  leave  roundhouse  or  other  point. ' ' 

Explain  to  the  Board  what  is  meant  by  preparatory  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  is  time  consumed  in  preparing  the  engine  for 
the  trip.  If  you  take  a  great  number  of  these  railroads,  the 
engineer's  time  begins  when  he  leaves  the  trainyard.  A  great 
many  of  the  schedules  provide  that.  Now,  then,  he  has  to  have 
his  engine  prepared,  ready  for  the  trip,  before  he  leaves  the 
trainyard,  and  it  is  time  consumed  preparing  the  engine  before 
he  departs  from  his  trainyard. 

Mr.  Stone:  Explain  to  the  Board  what  is  the  nature  of 
preparatory  work,  how  a  man  gets  ready  for  the  trip,  what  he 
is  called  for,  the  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  a  great  many  of  the  railroads  where 
you  have  to  go  to  work  and  report  on  duty,  to  register,  or  report 
on  duty.  There  are  a  great  number  of  them  that  require  you 
to  register  your  watch  and  you  have  to  go  to  work  and  look  at 
the  report  book  and  see  what  work  has  been  done  on  the  engine 
before  you  go  out.  You  go  to  work  and  oil  your  engine  around. 
You  have  to  fill  your  lubricator;  you  have  to  see  to  your  head- 
light. In  case  you  are  carrying  signals,  you  have  got  to  see 
that  they  are  proper.  You  have  got  to  go  to  work,  according 
to  the  company's  rules,  and  see  that  you  have  got  tools  on  your 
engine.  There  are  a  whole  lot  of  things  you  have  to  do  before 
you  go  down  to  go  out,  and  that  is  called  preparatory  time. 


82 

The  Chairman:  How  much  time  is  usually  consumed  in 
that  kind  of  work? 

Mr.  Cadlo:  It  depends  alto^i>:ether  on  the  class  of  engines 
that  you  are  ]>r('parini?,  Mr.  Chairman.  On  a  small  engine  where 
the  company  tills  the  grease  cups  and  rod  cups  for  you,  and  does 
a  great  deal  of  that  work  in  the  shop,  why,  you  can  prepare 
them  in  oh,  say,  35  minutes,  while,  with  other  engines,  you  take 
the  large  type  of  engines,  it  may  take  you  longer  than  that.  If 
you  have  to  fill  the  grease  cups  on  those  engines,  I  think  the 
very  best  you  could  do,  to  fill  the  grease  cups  alone,  without  do- 
ing anything  else,  would  be  half  an  hour.  On  a  good  many  sys- 
tems the  companies  have  released  the  engineer  from  filling  these 
grease  cups. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  you  have  to  compare  your  watch, 
check  over  the  bulletin  book  and  sign  for  all  bulletins  issued 
up  to  date,  get  a  time  slip  from  the  roundhouse  foreman  and  all 
that? 

'Mv.  Cadle:  In  the  eastern  territory  they  use  a  time  slip, 
but  not  so  much  in  the  western  territory.  They  do  not  practice 
that  \('ry  much  in  the  west,  but  they  have  to  compare  their 
watches  and  they  have  to  register  their  time  in  a  great  many  of 
the  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  about  the  bulletins ? 

]\Ir.  Cadle:  Well,  you  have  got  to  examine  the  bulletins. 
According  to  the  book  of  rules  you  are  supposed  to  examine  the 
bulletins. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  you  must  have  your  engine 
ready  to  move  with  all  of  this  clone  at  a  certain  time  before  you 
are  rcMpiired  to  leave  the  vard? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  think  the  book  of  rules  requires  you  to  be 
ready  for  business  thirty  minutes  before  leaving  time.  I  think 
that  is  their  book  of  rules. 

Mr.  Stone:     On  the  majority  of  the  roads? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  a  great  many  of  them. 

Mr.  Stone:  There  are  some  places,  are  there  not,  where 
they  have  outlying  yards,  they  re(]uire  longer  time  than  that,  the 
men  are  required  to  report  earlier  than  that? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     Can  you  recall  any  of  those  roads  or  rules? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  think  the  Canadian  Northern  and  the  Canad- 


83 

ian  Pacific  both  require  men  to  be  on  duty  ready  to  move  45 
minutes  before  tlie  fixed  leaving  time  of  the  train. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is,  have  everything  ready  to  move? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  So,  you  can  go  up  in  the  yard  and  get  your 
train  ready,  test  the  air — is  that  the  idea,  so  you  will  be  ready 
to  move  on  the  time  called  to  leave  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  don 't  know  Avhether  they  require  them  to  be 
on  their  train ;  I  know  according  to  their  agreement  they  require 
them  to  be  ready  to  move  thirty  minutes  before,  I  don't  know 
where  they  move  from,  but  I  presume  it  is  the  point  where  they 
prepare  their  engines  for  the  trip. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then,  all  this  preparatory  time  is  time  that 
the  crews  are  required  to  be  on  the  locomotive  prior  to  the  time 
of  leaving  the  roundhouse  or  other  designated  points! 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir.  I  think  that  is  what  we  are  asking 
pay  for. 

Mr.  Stone  (Reading):  "Article  VI.  Terminal  Delay. 
Passenger  Service. 

"Initial  terminal  delay  for  engineers  and  firemen  in  pas- 
senger service  shall  begin  at  the  time  they  are  called  to  leave 
roundhouse  or  other  point  and  shall  end  upon  departure  of 
trains  from  passenger  depot." 

Explain  what  that  means,  Mr.  Cadle — initial  terminal 
delay? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  have  been  called  to  leave  at  6  o'clock  in  the 
morning  myself  when  I  did  not  get  out  until  9.  That  is  what  I 
call  terminal  delay.  I  was  called  to  leave  at  6  and  I  departed 
at  9  o'clock  and  I  have  done  a  good  deal  of  terminal  delay 
mvself. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  other  words,  you  were  on  your  engine  and 
had  it  ready  to  go  before  6  o'clock. 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  company  would  call  me  one  hour  before 
they  wanted  me ;  come  to  my  room  and  call  me  one  hour  before 
the  leaving  time  of  the  train.  Now,  if  they  had  called  me  at 
6  o'clock  my  time  Avould  begin  at  7  o'clock,  and  with  terminal 
delay  I  might  not  get  out  until  8  o'clock  or  9  o'clock. 

Mr,  Stone:     What  causes  this  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Oh,  various  things.  There  are  lots  of  different 
things  that  can  cause  terminal  delay;  just  a  whole  lot  of  things 


84 

that  cause  it.  Some  years  ago,  when  the  railroad  companies 
did  not  pay  I'or  it  and  the  caller  happened  to  be  up  at  Cadle's 
say  an  hour  or  two  before  leaving  time,  he  would  call  Cadle  and 
I  would  get  down  on  the  engine  with  my  boots  on  and  wait  until 
they  got  ready  for  me.  After  they  commenced  paying  me  for  it, 
tlien  they  checked  it  u]).  They  did  away  with  a  whole  lot  of  it. 
"We  got  our  rest  in  bed  instead  of  on  the  engine.  I  think  we  were 
better  cquii)]ied  to  go  out  and  do  a  day's  work  for  the  com]iany. 

Mr.  Stone:  It  is  really  a  fact  that  this  initial  terminal  de- 
lay clause,  for  both  freight  and  passenger,  is  a  penalty  time  to 
prevent  the  abuse  of  the  menf 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir,  and  it  has  been  a  great  benefit  to  the 
company  and  to  the  engineers  both,  to  all  classes  of  trainmen.  I 
can  recall  cases  where  we  laid  three  and  four  hours  trying  to  get 
into  the  yards  after  we  arrived  at  the  terminal  point.  I  know 
that  the  men  complained  a  great  deal,  that  is,  the  engine  crews 
complained  a  great  deal  in  regard  to  being  held  on  duty,  and  the 
company  gave  us  a  rule  that  they  would  pay  lis  for  that  time,  and 
I  know  they  cut  it  down  to  a  very,  very  small  minimum.  Well, 
the  company  was  benefitted,  because  they  had  the  use  of  their 
power.  I  do  not  understand  you  can  earn  any  money  on  a  rail- 
road with  a  lot  of  trains  standing  still  on  the  main  track,  and 
your  crews  could  not  get  any  rest  out  there,  so  that  is  the  reason 
that  I  say  that  both  were  benefitted  by  that,  when  they  allowed 
terminal  delay.  The  officers  in  charge  would  check  that  up  in 
the  morning,  if  they  found  out  a  train  was  held  out  four  or  five 
hours,  they  would  make  some  inquiry  into  it  to  find  out  what  was 
the  cause  of  it,  ask  the  men  to  make  statements,  and  after  a 
while  they  cut  it  down  so  that  there  was  a  very  small  amount  of 
it  allowed.  1  think  when  we  first  comnionced  getting  pay  in  this 
particular  case  there  were  perhaps  600  hours  allowed  the  first 
month,  and  they  cut  it  down  to  a  very  low  minimum. 

Mr.  Stone :  ( Heading)  '  *  Final  terminal  delay  for  Engineers 
and  Firemen  in  ])assenger  service  shall  begin  at  the  time  they 
arrive  at  passenger  depot,  and  will  end  when  relieved  from 
duty."    Why  do  we  ask  that? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Why,  in  order  to  get  relieved. 
Mr.  Stone:     Explain  what  the  abuse  is  that  calls  for  this 
rule;  why  the  men  ask  it.    AVhy  they  are  delayed.    What  delays 
a  passenger  train  after  it  arrives  at  its  terminal? 


That  is  after  you  have  left  the  terminal  depot, 
ain  put  away? 

After  we  have  arrived. 

Do  you  not  often  have  delay  in  the  depot  ? 

Well,  in  passenger  trains,  of  course — 

That  is  what  we  are  talking  of  now,  passenger 


85 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  lots  of  times  you  have  to  pull  into 
a  train  yard,  and  I  have  seen  cases  and  know  of  cases  where 
they  would  have  a  switch  engine  that  might  have  a  cut  of  cars  out 
there,  and  they  would  switch  that  cut  of  cars  before  they  would 
let  you  in,  and  they  would  keep  the  main  track  blocked  on  you, 
so  that  you  could  not  get  into  the  train  yard,  and  after  you  got 
into  the  train  yards  you  could  not  get  into  the  roundhouse.  You 
could  not  get  a  track  where  you  would  be  released  from  your  en- 
gine on  account  of  being  blocked  at  the  other  end, 

Mr.  Stone 
getting  your  tr; 

Mr.  Cadle; 

Mr.  Stone; 

Mr.  Cadle; 

Mr.  Stone: 
service. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir.  They  have  been  delayed  in  the  sta- 
tion getting  out,  getting  rid  of  the  cares  of  their  engines. 

Mr.  Stone :  Well,  is  it  not  a  fact  they  are  often  held  to  un- 
load two  or  three  cars  of  mail  or  express? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  you  are  often  held  in  these 
large  terminals  with  head  in  tracks  to  wait  for  switch  engines 
to  take  the  trains  ofil 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  It  is  nothing  unusual  to  be  delayed  30  to  40 
minutes  from  the  time  they  arrive  at  the  depot  till  they  are  re- 
leased from  duty,  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  there  are  such  delays,  but  the  company 
takes  very  good  care  of  them  w^hen  they  have  to  pay  for  it. 

Mr.  Stone:  "Final  terminal  delay  in  passenger  service." 
How  many  roads  are  there  that  pay  that  in  the  western  terri- 
tory? I  think  this  all  applies  to  freight,  Mr.  Cadle.  I  do  not 
think  you  have  worked  up  anything  for  the  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  All  right,  passing  on  to  freight  service.  (Read- 
ing.) '*  Initial  terminal  delay  in  freight  service  shall  begin  at 
the  time  Engineer  and  Fireman  is  called  to  leave  roundhouse 
or  other  point,  and  shall  end  when  train  has  passed  from  yard 
track  or  lead  to  main  line,  and  after  it  departs  from  the  ter- 
minal. " 


86 

Your  explanation  for  the  initial  terminal  delay  for  freight 
service  is  largely  the  same  as  for  passenger  service,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  It  is  time  in  getting  ready  from  the  time  you 
are  called  until  the  time  you  leave? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  AVherever  the  initial  terminal  delay  has  been 
paid  for,  has  there  been  any  improvement  in  regard  to  getting 
men  out  of  terminals? 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  have  taken  the  unusual  delays  where 
there  don't  appear  to  be  much  excuse  for  it,  and  they  have 
bettered  those  conditions  considerably. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  your  final  terminal  delay  in  freight  service. 
(Reading.)  ''Final  terminal  delay  in  freight  service  shall  be- 
gin when  train  arrives  at  switch  leading  from  main  line  into 
yard,  and  shall  end  when  Engineer  and  Fireman  are  relieved 
from  duty;  provided,  that  if  from  any  cause  trains  are  held  out 
of  yard,  final  terminal  delay  shall  begin." 

Are  there  any  roads  in  the  western  territory  that  pay  final 
terminal  delay  if  the  engineer  is  held  on  duty,  pay  final  terminal 
delay  if  delayed  fifteen  minutes  or  more  after  arrival  at  the 
terminal? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir,  there  are  eight  such  roads. 

Mr.  Stone:    Will  you  give  the  names  of  those  roads? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  Chicago  Great  Western,  Colorado  &  South- 
em,  Fort  Worth  &  Denver  City,  Great  Northern  Eailroad,  Mar- 
shall &  East  Texas,  San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass,  Southern 
Pacific,  Pacific  Lines,  Wichita  Valley. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  western  territory 
that  pay  final  terminal  delay  if  the  engineer  is  held  on  duty 
thirty  minutes  or  more? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir,  there  are  27  of  those  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone:     Will  you  give  the  names,  please? 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  are  the  A.,  T.  &  S.  F.,  coast  lines,  the  A., 
T.  &  S.  F.,  proper,  the  Canadian  Pacific,  western  lines,  the  Chi- 
cago, Peoria  &  St.  Louis,  the  Chicago,  Rock  Island  &  Pacific 
Lines,  the  Fort  Smith  &  Western,  the  Southern  Pacific,  Atlantic 
Svstem,  the  Grand  Trunk  Pacific. 

Mr.  Stone:  Speaking  of  the  Grand  Trunk  Pacific,  you 
mean  the  lines  west  of  Fort  William,  do  you  not? 


87 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir ;  tlie  Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe,  Hous- 
ton &  Texas  Central,  Houston  East  and  West  Texas,  Inter- 
national &  Great  Northern,  Midland  Valley,  Minneapolis  &  St. 
Louis,  Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  &  Sault  Ste.  Marie,  Missouri,  Okla- 
homa &  Gulf,  Missouri  Pacific,  Iron  Mountain,  Missouri,  Kansas 
&  Texas  Lines,  North  Western  Pacific,  Oregon  &  Washington 
Railroad  &  Navigation  Company,  San  Pedro,  Los  Angeles  & 
Salt  Lake,  St.  Louis,  Brownsville  &  Mexico,  St.  Louis  &  San 
Francisco  Lines,  St.  Louis  &  Southwestern  System,  Texas  & 
Pacific,  Trinity  &  Brazos  Valley. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  railroads  in  the  western  terri- 
tory that  do  not  pay  final  terminal  delay  unless  the  engineer  is 
held  on  duty  an  hour  or  more? 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  are  eight  such  roads. 

Mr.  Stone:     Give  the  names,  please? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Chicago  &  North  Western,  C,  M.  &  St.  P., 
Puget  Sound  Lines,  C,  B.  &  Q.,  El  Paso  &  Southwestern,  North- 
ern Pacific,  Union  Pacific,  Wabash  Lines  west  of  Detroit,  West- 
ern Pacific. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  that  make  an  arbitrary 
allowance  at  the  end  of  each  trip,  I  mean? 

Mr.  Stone :     "What  road  is  it  1 

Mr.  Cadle:     In  the  western  territory? 

Mr.  Stone :     Yes,  in  the  western  territorv. 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  Canadian  Pacific  makes  an  arbitrary  al- 
lowance of  45  minutes  for  final  terminal  delay. 

Mr.  Trenholm:     The  Canadian  Northern. 

Mr.  Cadle :     And  the  Canadian  Northern. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  have  a  record  of  only  one — the  Canadian 
Pacific,  lines  west. 

Mr.  Cadle :     The  Canadian  Northern. 

Mr.  Stone :  AVhat  railroads  in  southeastern  territory  allow 
for  terminal  delay,  if  delayed  thirty  minutes  or  more  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  ninteen  railroads  in  the  southeastern 
territory. 

Mr.  Stone :     Give  the  names  of  them,  please  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Alabama  &  Great  Southern,  the  Alabama 
&  Vicksburg,  the  Atlanta,  Birmingham  &  Atlantic,  the  Atlanta 
West  Point,  the  Carolina,  Clinchfield  &  Ohio,  the  Charleston  & 
West  Carolina,  the  Chesapeake  &  Ohio,  the  Cincinnati,  New 


88 

Orleans  &  Texas,  the  Lexington  Eastern,  the  Louisville,  Hen- 
derson &  St.  Louis,  the  Louisville  &  Nashville,  the  Mobile  &  Ohio, 
the  New  Orleans  &  Great  Northern,  the  New  Orleans,  Mo])ile  & 
Chicago,  the  New  Orleans  &  Northeastern,  the  Southern  Rail- 
road Lines,  the  Tennessee  Central,  the  Vicksburg,  Shreveport  & 
Pacific,  and  the  Virginian. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  southeastern  ter- 
ritory that  pay  a  final  terminal  delay,  if  delayed  one  full  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  there  are  three  roads. 

Mr.  Stone :     Please  give  the  names. 

^fr.  Cadle :  The  Atlantic  Coast  Line,  the  Georgia  Southern 
and  Florida,  and  the  Seaboard  Air  Line. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  Western  territory 
that  pay  final  terminal  delay  on  the  miimte  basis,  that  is,  I  mean 
cumulative? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  there  is  one  railroad  that  makes  an  arbi- 
trary. 

Mr.  Stone:     There  are  more  than  that. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Ask  your  question. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  railroads  in  the  Western  territory  pay 
a  final  terminal  delav  on  the  minute  basis,  one  mile  for  each 
six  minutes! 

Mr.  Cadle:     There  are  four  such  roads. 

Mr.  Stone :    Will  you  please  give  the  names  1 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Kansas  City,  Mexico  &  Orient,  the  Kansas 
City  Southern,  the  Oregon  Short  Line,  and  the  Spokane,  Port- 
land &  Seattle. 

Mr.  Stone  (Reading):  "Minute  basis.  Engineers  and 
Firemen  shall  be  paid  on  a  minute  basis  for  all  terminal  delay; 
at  the  pro  rata  rate  for  the  class  of  engine  used ;  this  in  addition 
to  all  time  or  mileage  made  on  the  trip." 

That  has  been  explained  two  or  three  times,  so  I  think  it  is 
hardly  necessary  again  to  show  how  the  overtime  is  built  up  on 
the  cumulative  plan. 

(Reading):     **  Article  VII.    Automatic  Release  and  Tie-up. 

**  Engineers  and  Firemen  arriving  at  terminal  or  end  of 
run  are  automatically  released;  when  used  again,  they  begin  a 
new  day." 

I  think  it  is  fair  to  state  for  our  side,  Mr.  Chairman,  that, 
several  months  ago,  during  the  negotiations,  we  explained  to 


89 

the  Managers'  Association  that  it  was  not  the  intent  to  have 
Article  VII  apply  to  suburban  service.  That  is  a  matter  of 
record. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  assume,  then,  that  this  request  in  its  modi- 
fied form  ought  to  be  submitted  at  this  time,  so  that  we  may 
analyze  the  modification.  As  drafted,  of  course,  it  does  cover, 
all  classes  of  service.  Whatever  exception  you  propose  to  make 
should,  I  suppose,  be  made  a  part  of  the  modified  request  at 
this  time,  so  that  we  may  consider  the  language  of  the  modifica- 
tion, to  ascertain  whether  it  is  sufficient. 

Mr.  Stone:  Tlie  exception  was  brought  out  by  a  letter 
from  the  Association  of  Western  Railways,  over  the  signature 
of  Mr.  Trenholm  and  we  notified  him,  in  reply,  over  the  signa- 
tures of  Mr.  Carter  and  myself,  that  Article  VII,  automatic 
release,  did  not  apply  to  suburban  service ;  that  that  was  not  our 
intent.  That  is  all  a  matter  of  record,  which  I  shall  be  very  glad 
to  produce. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Stone,  vou  misunderstand  me.  I  did  not 
intend  to  question  at  all  that  that  was  the  statement  in  the 
correspondence  here;  but,  the  request  as  made  has  no  such 
modification;  and,  if  it  was  to  be  covered  now  simply  by  an 
explanatory  note  accompanying  the  request,  then  we  should 
have  that  note  in  whatever  form  you  desire  to  put  it,  as  to 
whether  the  modification  is  to  be  made  on  a  series  of  short  runs 
or  short  turn-arounds,  just  limiting  what  exceptions  there  are 
to  be  to  the  general  language  of  the  rule. 

Mr.  Stone:  We  will  do  that  by  tomorrow  morning,  Mr. 
Chairman,  so  as  to  make  it  a  matter  of  record.  It  is  already  a 
matter  of  record.  We  will  simply  reproduce  the  original  record 
saying  that  it  does  not  apply  to  suburban  service,  that  that  was 
not  our  intent. 

The  Chairman :  And,  that  your  request  in  the  first  instance 
is  modified  to  that  extent. 

Mr.  Stone :  Yes.  Mr.  Cadle,  what  is  meant  by  the  para- 
graph:   (Reading.) 

'*  Engineers  and  Firemen  arriving  at  terminal  or  end  of 
run  are  automatically  released"? 

What  do  we  mean  by  that  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  means  you  are  done  with  your  day's 
work. 


90 

Mr.  Stone :  And  if  there  is  any  further  service,  that  another 
crew  sliall  be  called? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  other  words,  you  do  not  w^ant  a  crew  that 
arrives  at  a  terminal,  to  run  around  some  other  crew  in  the  same 
*  class  of  service,  or  run  out  again  in  the  same  line  of  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  We  have  agreements  with  nearly  all  of  these 
roads  that  crews  shall  run,  first  in,  first  out,  at  terminal  points. 

Mr.  Stone :  Take  a  man  running  first  in,  first  out,  who  ar- 
rives at  a  terminal,  when  he  comes  in  and  goes  out  of  the  ter- 
minal, where  he  would  expect  that  under  the  first  in  first  out  rule 
he  would  be  done  with  his  day's  work 

Mr.  Byram :  AVould  it  apply  whether  there  were  any  other 
crews  at  that  place  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :    The  first  man  out  on  the  board  would  be  called. 

Mr.  Byram :     Suppose  there  were  no  other  man  there ! 

Mr.  Cadle :  Then  he  would  have  to  go,  if  the  company  could 
use  him. 

Mr.  Byram:     For  continuous  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  do  not  mean  it  that  way,  do  you?  Would 
not  a  new  day  begin  Avhen  he  was  called  again? 

Mr.  Cadle :  He  did  not  ask  me  that.  He  asked  me,  if  they 
could  use  him. 

Mr.  Stone:  He  asked  you  if  they  could  use  him  for  con- 
tinuous service. 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Byram :  You  would  have  to  pay  him  for  another  day, 
whether  there  were  any  other  crews  or  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Byram :  Or  two  days  or  three  days,  as  many  times  as 
he  had  occasion  to  go  out? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Well,  yes,  if  he  could  make  two  or  three  days.- 

Mr.  Stone:  Under  the  present  system  of  handling  these 
heavy  trains  it  is  not  at  all  likely  he  would  make  three  days, 
would  he? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No.  A  man  is  very  fortunate  if  he  can  make 
one. 

Mr.  Park:  What  do  I  understand  by  "automatic"?  Does 
that  do  away  with  the  formalities  of  registering  at  the  round- 


i>*»  m.~^  "^^^ .T^^^^^KI^^^^^^^f  ^  A 


91 

house?  I  do  not  quite  get  the  word  ''automatic".  It  is  new  to 
me.  He  certainly  cannot  be  released  until  some  authority  per- 
mits him  to  leave  the  service.  Does  this  automatic  release  relieve 
the  official  in  charge  of  the  duty  of  relieving  him? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  sir,  it  does  not  interfere  with  his  register- 
ing in,  and  doing  all  the  things  that  the  company's  rules  require 
him  to  do  when  he  gets  done  with  his  day's  work. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  or  not  the  fact  that  after  a  man  arrives 
on  the  designated  track  where  he  leaves  his  train,  he  would  be 
released  from  his  continuous  day's  work?  That  is  the  intent  of 
the  article,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes.  The  company  will  designate  a  track  where 
they  want  him  to  go,  to  release  him,  or  at  the  roundhouse,  either 
one. 

Mr.  Stone:  Suppose  the  callboy  swings  on  to  the  engine 
as  he  comes  into  the  yard  and  says,  "You  are  not  released." 
Would  this  rule  release  him  anyway,  and  a  new  day  begin? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  it  would,  the  way  the  rule  is  formulated. 

Mr.  Park:  Suppose  there  was  a  wreck,  and  we  needed 
him  right  away,  and  the  callboy  went  down  and  told  him,  do  we 
understand  that,  notwithstanding  the  fact  that  the  callboy  called 
him,  he  would  have  authoritj^  to  go  home  and  ignore  the  callboy, 
and  that  he  was  automatically  released? 

Mr.  Cadle :     In  case  of  a  wreck? 

Mr.  Park:  That  he  was  automatically  released  from  duty 
at  that  time  ?  That  he  would  have  the  privilege  of  going  home, 
notwithstanding  he  was  notified  that  he  would  be  immediately 
needed  and  continued  in  the  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  or  a  wreck? 

Mr.  Park:  It  might  be  a  wreck,  or  it  might  be  for  any 
other  purpose.  I  am  afraid  of  that  word  "automatic."  I  do 
not  see  how  he  can  be  automatically  released,  when  he  gets  in, 
and  be  allowed  to  go  home  without  any  formality,  regardless 
of  any  authority  that  might  keep  him  on  duty. 

Mr.  Cadle:  From  my  experience  in  being  around  with  en- 
gineers, and  working  with  them,  and  working  at  the  profession 
myself,  I  have  never  seen  an  engineer  yet  who,  when  an  officer 
of  a  railroad  came  out,  or  sent  the  callboy  and  told  him  there  was 
a  wreck  on  the  road,  whether  he  was  automatically  released  or 
anything  of  that  kind,  would  go  away.    He  would  go  on  because 


92 

there  was  a  case  of  emergency  that  required  immediate  action. 
We  want  our  men  to  act  and  to  act  promptly,  but  under  this 
rule  a  man's  new  day  would  begin. 

Mr.  Park:  Then  the  word  ''automatic"  was  intended  to 
separate  that  trip  from  the  one  succeeding  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Park:  And  that  is  the  meaning  of  the  word  "auto- 
matic" as  applied  here? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Park:  I  just  wanted  to  get  that  into  -my  head,  be- 
cause that  word  "automatic"  is  a  new  word  in  railroading. 

Mr.  Cadle:     It  is  new. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  think,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  they  are  making 
the  mistake  of  dividing  up  the  sentence.  It  reads  as  plainly  as 
we  knew  how  to  put  the  English  language.  Of  course,  I  realize 
that  we  railroad  men  sometimes  think  we  are  talking  the  English 
language,  when  we  are  talking  a  language  that  nobodj^  else  un- 
derstands at  all.    It  reads  very  plainlj^: 

' '  Engineers  and  Firemen  arriving  at  terminal  or  end  of  run 
are  automatically  released;  when  used  again  they  begin  a  new 
day." 

It  is  the  definite  intention  that  the  one  run  is  ended,  and, 
when  the  man  is  used  again,  a  new  day  begins.  It  is  to  draw  a 
line  of  demarcation  between  the  two,  and  that  is  why  it  is  used 
in  that  way,  to  settle  forever  the  question  as  to  whether  the  man 
is  released  when  he  arrives,  which  has  been  one  of  the  mooted 
questions  we  have  had  up  for  the  last  fifteen  or  twenty  years., 
and  it  is  still  unsettled  in  some  parts  of  the  country. 

Mr.  Burgess:    May  I  ask  a  question  there? 

The  Chairman:    Yes. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Mr.  Stone,  do  you  know  of  any  railroad  that 
has  the  practice  of  telling  the  engineer  that  he  is  through  when 
he  arrives  on  his  run? 

Mr.  Stone:  No,  I  do  not.  I  know  some  railroads  where 
they  will  tell  him,  "Now,  don't  go  away.  We  are  liable  to  want 
to  use  you  pretty  soon.    Eemain  on  duty." 

Mr.  Burgess:  But  the  question  is,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  en- 
gineers arriving  at  a  terminal  are  automatically  released  ac- 
cording to  railroad  practice  at  the  present  time,  unless  they 
are  notified  that  they  are  wanted  for  another  run? 


^f^'*'«VA  >'    >  If^f  ».   ""^ WI'\^*m  *^  <P  f  J  4  >  k  Ws.*9.  . ■   .%  ,  ^  -4i^\i- 


v^ 


93 

Mr.  Stone:  That  is  true.  On  many  of  the  agreements  you 
will  find  an  article  that  says  they  arrive  at  their  terminal  at  a 
certain  designated  track  or  switch  in  the  yard. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Taking  the  ordinary  and  normal  practice, 
when  an  engineer  arrives  at  a  terminal  and  registers  on  the  book 
provided  for  that  purpose,  and  examines  his  engine  and  reports 
his  work,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  he. goes  right  home?  Nobody  goes 
and  tells  him  he  is  through  with  his  work,  that  you  know  of, 
do  you? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Burgess:  We  want  to  clear  up  the  ''automatic" 
feature. 

Mr.  Park:  That  is  as  I  understood  it,  and  I  could  not 
see  the  use  of  the  word  ' '  automatic ' '  in  here.  I  agree  w4th  Mr. 
Burgess  in  his  understanding  that  he  is  released  from  duty  when 
he  registers  in  and  goes  through  certain  formalities,  so  that  I 
do  not  understand  what  the  word  "automatic"  means. 

Mr.  Stone :  We  think  the  word  is  very  vital  and  necessary 
to  have  in  there. 

Mr.  Park:  I  think  I  can  see  far  enough  to  see  what  it  is 
intended  to  do.  It  is  to  separate  the  trips  distinctly.  If  a  man 
goes  into  the  terminal,  after  he  has  been  on-duty  one  hour,  he  is 
off  duty,  and,  if  he  goes  out  another  hour,  in  another  district, 
he  has  two  days. 

Mr.  Nagel:  That  is  to  fix  his  rights  with  respect  to  that 
run.  When  he  is  called  on  again  it  would  constitute  a  separate 
day. 

Mr.  Park :  Yes.  I  can  see  a  picture  of  a  man  getting  four 
days  in  four  hours. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  also  have  another  picture  that  I  might  inject, 
which  is  that,  after  a  man  has  been  on  duty  fifteen  hours,  and 
there  is  something  out  here  six  or  seven  miles  that  they  want  to 
drag  in,  if  they  don't  use  this  man  they  will  have  to  call  a  new 
crew  and  pay  them  for  a  day,  and  so  they  will  use  the  man  ^vlio 
has  been  on  duty  fifteen  hours  to  go  out  and  drag  in  this  train. 

The  Chairman:     Proceed. 

Mr.  Stone:  (Reading.)  '' Continuous  time.  Engineers  and 
Firemen  tied  up  between  their  terminals  will  be  paid  continuous 
time,  no  deductions  will  be  made  for  time  tied  up. ' ' 


94 

Are  there  any  roads  in  this  western  country  where  we  have 
continuous  time? 

Mr.  Cadlo :     I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Stone:  AVliat  is  the  idea  of  tlie  rule?  Why  is  it  in- 
to?jdcd  that  men  shall  not  be  released  between  terminals? 

Mr.  Cadle :  AVell,  the  men  have  got  no  place  to  stay.  They 
lie  on  their  engines  as  a  general  thing.  They  have  nowhere  to 
go,  to  get  to  bed  and  get  a  rest,  and  when  their  eight  hours 
are  up  under  the  Federal  Law,  or  ten  hours,  as  the  case  may  be, 
they  want  to  be  paid  continuous  time  for  the  time  while  they 
were  lying  out  on  the  road.     They  w^ant  to  get  in  off  the  road. 

Mr.  Stone :  There  are  a  number  of  rules  in  effect,  now  are 
there  not,  that  men  shall  not  be  released  between  terminals  ex- 
cept when  tied  up  under  the  Federal  Law  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  (Reading.)  "Article  VIII.  Held  away  from 
home  terminals.  Engineers  and  Firemen  held  at  other  than 
home  terminal  (including  rest  period)  will  be  paid  continuous 
time  for  all  time  so  held,  after  the  expiration  of  15  hours  from 
time  relieved  from  previous  duty,  of  the  rate  per  hour  paid  for 
the  last  service  performed;  less  than  one  hour  not  to  be  paid 
for." 

Are  there  any  roads  in  the  western  country  that  pay  for 
held  away  from  home  terminal? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     Have  you  a  list  of  them  there? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     Will  you  please  give  them? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  engineers  when 
held  away  from  home  terminal  after  eighteen  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  road  is  that? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  is  the  Canadian  Northern. 

I\fr.  Stone:     Oo  ahead. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  after  being 
held  away  from  home  terminal  twelve  hours,  forty  cents  an  hour. 
There  is  one  railroad  that  agrees  not  to  hold  engineers  away 
from  home  terminal  more  than  tweny-four  hours. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  road  is  that? 

Mr.  Cadle :     That  is  the  Chicago  Great  Western. 

Mr.  Trenholm:     What  road  has  the  twelve  hour  rule? 


*.'.'.  ^•W'^'^'^v^  ^Vifl' >^        '    ^  .  ^  'j'tv  -^w^^  . 


v^ 


95 

Mr.  Cadle :     The  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe-Coast  Lines. 

Mr.  Stone:     All  right,  go  ahead,  Mr.  Cadle. 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  six  railroads  that  pay  100  miles  for 
each  twenty-four  hours  held  away  from  home  terminal. 

Mr.  Stone:    Will  you  give  the  names  of  those  roads,  please? 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  are  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul, 
the  Colorado  &  Southern,  the  Denver  &  Eio  Grande  (Utah  lines), 
the  Fort  Worth  &  Denver  City,  the  New  Orleans,  Texas  &  Mexico 
Lines,  and  the  Oregon-Washington  Railroad  &  Navigation  Com- 
pany. 

Mr.  Stone:     All  right,  go  ahead. 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  three  railroads  that  agree  to  correct, 
when  held  away  from  home  terminal,  an  excessive  number  of 
hours. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  roads  are  those  three? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Southern  Pacific,  Pacific  System,  the  Mis- 
souri, Kansas  &  Texas,  and  the  Grand  Trunk  Pacific,  Western 
Lines. 

Mr.  Stone:     Go  ahead. 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  engineers,  who 
deliver  engines  to  other  districts,  an  hourly  rate  after  being 
held  fifteen  hours,  for  each  hour  after  fifteen  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:     For  each  hour  held? 

Mr.  Cadle :     After  fifteen  hours. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  road  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     The  Illinois  Central. 

Mr.  Stone:     Is  that  all? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  for  being  held 
away  twenty-four  hours  after  delivering  the  engine. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  road  is  that? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  is  the  Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf. 

There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  100  miles  to  engineers  when 
held  sixteen  hours,  and  100  miles  for  each  eight  hours  after  the 
first  sixteen  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  road  is  that? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  is  the  San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass. 

Mr.  Stone :  How  do  the  railroads  in  the  Southeastern  ter- 
ritory compensate  their  engineers  for  being  held  away  from 
home  terminal? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  twenty-one  railroads  in  the  South- 
eastern territory  that  pay  engineers  ten  hours  for  the  first  twen- 


96 

ty-eiglit  liours,  and  a  inininiiini  of  ten  hours  for  each  twenty-four 
hours  held  thereafter. 

Mr.  Stone:    Will  you  give  a  list  of  those  roads,  please? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Alabama  &  Great  Southern;  Alabama  &  Vicks- 
burg-;  Atlanta;  Birmingham  &  Atlantic;  Atlantic  Coast  Line; 
Central  of  Georgia;  Chesapeake  &  Ohio;  Cincinnati,  New  Or- 
leans t^'  Texas;  Florida  East  Coast;  Georgia  Southern  &  Florida; 
Georgia  Kailroad  &  Atlanta  Joint  Terminal;  Lexington  &  East- 
ern; TiOuisville  &  Nashville;  Mobile  &  Ohio;  Nashville,  Chat- 
tanooga &  St.  Louis;  New  Orleans  &  Great  Northern;  New  Or- 
leans &  Northoastorn;  Seaboard  Air  Line;  Southern  Railroad 
System;  Southern  Railroad  of  Mississippi;  Tennessee  Central; 
Vicksburg  &  Shreveport. 

Mr.  Stone:  How  do  the  railroads  in  the  eastern  territory 
compensate  their  employes  for  being  held  away  from  the  home 
terminal  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  pay  ten  hours  after  being  held  away 
from  home  28  hours.  That  is,  for  the  first  twenty-eight  hours, 
and  then  they  pay  10  hours  for  each  24  hours  after.  That  is 
the  award  of  the  Eastern  Arbitrators. 

Mr.  Byram:  Were  any  exceptions  made  under  circum- 
stances such  as  wrecks,  washouts  and  so  forth,  to  that  award? 

Mr.  Cadle:    In  eastern  territory? 

Mr.  Byram:     Yes. 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Byram:     No  exceptions? 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Yes.  I  should  like  to  correct  that,  Mr.  Chair- 
man. There  are  exceptions  for  wrecks,  -washouts,  and  acts  of 
Providence,  I  believe,  the  word  is  written. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Byram:  You  have  not  made  any  allowance  of  that 
kind. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Sir? 

Mr.  Bvram:  You  have  not  made  anv  allowance  for  such 
calamities  in  your  proposal. 

Mr.  Cadle :  This  is  not  my  proposal  at  all,  Mr.  Byram.  I 
am  reading  what  j'ou  have  got  in  your  schedules. 

Mr.  Stone:    In  our  proposal  of  articles  you  refer  to? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  ones  I  am  reading.  The  ones  I  read  here, 
these  rules. 


'-.  ^aW^  •••»  J  i  ^  I  V^»  »^  -  ■  •  .^■-  ^  O'ATtf  ■  *  *  WXl  4  V  %'A:w^  .   —   «%  a  ^ 


97 

Mr.  Byrain :  Yes.  I  am  asking  if  you  liave  made  any  provi- 
sions in  the  one  yon  propose  to  have  adopted  f 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Stone:  We  are  living  in  the  hope  that  none  of  those 
dire  disasters  will  happen. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  if  they  should,  you  should  draw  your 
pay? 

Mr.  Stone :  If  they  should  we  should  draw  our  pay,  because 
we  are  away  from  home.    (Reading.) 

"Article  I.  Deadheading.  ''Engineers  and  firemen  dead- 
heading on  company  business  shall  be  paid  the  same  rate  and 
on  the  same  basis  as  the  engineer  and  fireman  on  the  train  on 
which  deadheading.  Rules  in  individual  schedules  governing 
minimum  day  and  other  conditions,  to  apply." 

How  do  the  railroads  in  the  western  territory  compensate 
their  engineers  for  deadheading,  at  the  present  time? 

Mr,  Cadle :  There  are  21  railroads  in  the  Western  territory 
that  pay  full  passenger  rate  when  deadheading  on  company 
business. 

Mr.  Stone:     AVhat  are  those  roads,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  Chicago  Junction;  Chicago,  Peoria  &  St. 
Louis;  Denver  &  Salt  Lake;  Duluth  &  Northern  Minnesota; 
Elgin,  Joliet  &  Eastern;  El  Paso  &  Southeastern;  Great  North- 
oin  ;  Houston,  East  &  West  Texas ;  Houston  and  Texas  Central ; 
Illinois  Central;  International  and  Great  Northern;  Kansas 
(^ity,  Mexico  &  Orient;  Kansas  City  Southern;  Louisiana  Rail- 
road &  Navigation  Company;  Minnesota  &  International  Rail- 
road ;  Northern  Pacific ;  San  Pedro,  Los  Angeles  &  Salt  Lake ; 
Spokane,  Portland  &  Seattle ;  Texas  Midland ;  Trinity  &  Brazos 
Valley;  Union  Pacific. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  railroads  in  the  AVestern  teiii- 
tory  that  pay  half  the  passenger  rate  for  deadheading  on  })as- 
senger  trains? 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  are  22  such  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone:     Give  the  names,  please. 

Mr.  Cadle :  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul ;  Puget  Sound 
Lines;  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  proper;  Colorado  & 
Southern;  Colorado  Springs  and  Cripple  Creek;  Denver  &  Rio 
Grande  System;  Denver  &  Salt  Lake;  Duluth  «&  Iron  Range; 
Duluth,  Mesaba  k  Northern;  Duluth,  South  Shore  &  Atlantic; 


98 

Ft.  Smith  &  Western;  Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe;  Missouri, 
Oklahoma  &  Gulf;  Midland  Valley;  Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  & 
Sault  Ste.  Marie;  New  Orleans,  Texas  &  Pacific;  Oregon  Short 
Line;  Oregon,  Washington  Railroad  &  Navigation  Company; 
St.  Louis,  Brownsville  &  Mexico;  St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco 
Lines;  Texas  &  Pacific;  Chicago  «&  Eastern  Illinois. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  there  any  roads  in  the  Western  territory 
that  pay  full  time  when  carried  deadhead  on  company  business? 

Mr.  Cadle:     There  are  twenty-eight  such  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone :     Not  in  the  Western  territory  I 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  No,  that  is  on  freight  rates,  that  pay  freight 
rates  when  traveling  on  freight  trains. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Oh. 

Mr.  Stone :  How  many  roads  are  there  that  pay  full  tune 
at  freight  rates  when  traveling  on  freight  trains — deadheading 
on  freight  trains,  I  mean. 

Mr.  Cadle:     There  are  28. 

Mr.  Stone:     All  right,  give  the  names. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Chicago  Great  Western;  Chicago  Junction; 
Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  Puget  Sound  Lines;  Chicago, 
Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul;  Chicago,  Peoria  &  St.  Louis;  Chicago, 
Rock  Island  &  Pacific  Lines;  Denver  &  Rio  Grande;  Duluth, 
South  Shore  &  Atlantic;  Elgin,  Joliet  &  Eastern;  El  Paso  & 
Southwestern;  Ft.  Dodge,  Des  Moines  &  Southern;  Ft.  Worth 
&  Denver  City;  Great  Northern;  International  &  Great  North- 
ern ;  Illinois  Central ;  Kansas  City,  Mexico  &  Orient ;  Kansas 
City  Southern;  Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  &  Sault  Ste.  Marie; 
Minnesota  &  International ;  Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf ;  North- 
ern Pacific;  San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass;  St.  Louis,  Browns- 
ville &  Mexico ;  Spokane,  Portland  &  Seattle ;  Trinity  &  Brazos 
Valley;  Union  Pacific;  Wichita  Falls;  Chicago,  Mihvaukee  & 
Gary. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  there  roads  in  the  Western  territory  that 
pay  deadhead  time  in  various  other  ways,  in  addition  to  this? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Can  you  give  us  some  idea  of  how  they  are 
paid,  Mr.  Cadle. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  two  railroads  that  pay  engineers 
three  cents  and  a  half  per  mile  for  the  first  100  miles,  and  half 
of  that  amount  for  the  mileage  in  excess  of  100. 


*,.•  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K^i^^^^r 


A 


99 

Mr.  Stone :    What  are  those  roads  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  Coast  Line ; 
The  Santa  Fe,  Prescott  &  Phoenix.  There  is  one  railroad  that 
pays  21/^  cents  per  mile  for  the  actual  miles  traveled  in  deadhead 
service. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  is  that  road  I 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  is  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe, 
proper.  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  one-half  freight  rate 
when  deadheading  on  freight. 

Mr.  Stone :     Is  that  road  in  the  movement  1 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  it  is  not  in  the  movement. 

Mr.  Stone :     One  of  the  western  roads  1 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  road  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Chicago  &  Eastern  Illinois.  There  are  two 
railroads  that  pay  half  the  through  freight  rate  when  deadhead- 
ing engineers  on  passenger  trains. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  are  those  two  roads  1 

Mr.  Cadle :  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  and  the  Chicago 
Great  Western. 

There  are  two  railroads  that  pay  half  a  day  for  five  hours 
or  less.    Over  five  hours  they  pay  a  full  day  when  deadheading. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  are  those  two  railroads  1 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Colorado  Midland  and  the  Colorado  South- 
ern. There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  a  minimum  passenger  rate 
of  $4.40  when  deadheading  on  passenger,  and  a  minimum  freight 
rate  of  $4.80  when  deadheading  on  freight;  minimum  of  100 
miles. 

Mr.  Stone:    What  road  is  that? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Chicago,  Rock  Island  &  Pacific.  There  is 
one  railroad  that  pays  the  actual  mileage ;  pays  the  actual  mileage 
at  4.40  cents  per  mile  for  deadheading,  and  such  time  shall  be 
used  to  make  up  constructive  mileage. 

Mr.  Stone :    What  road  is  that? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Chicago  &  North  Western.  There  are  two 
railroads  that  pay  half  of  the  actual  mileage  deadheaded  traveled 
at  4  cents  a  mile. 

Mr.  Stone :    What  are  those  two  roads  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Chicago,  St.  Paul,  Minneapolis  &  Omaha,  and 
the  Minneapolis  &  St.  Louis.  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  43 
cents  per  hour  for  deadheading. 


100 

Mr.  Stone:    Wliat  road  is  that? 

Mr.  Cadlo:  Ft.  Dodge,  Des  Moines  &  Soiitliern.  There  are 
five  railroads  that  pay  $2.20  for  75  miles.  Over  75  miles  and  less 
that  200  they  pay  $4.40,  and  in  no  case  will  there  be  less  than 
$4.90  allowed. 

Mr.  Stone :  That  is  the  minimum  of  $4.90,  as  you  under- 
stand it? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :    What  are  those  five  roads? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  is  the  Southern  Pacific,  Atlantic  System, 
The  Texas  &  New  Orleans;  Louisiana  AVestern,  Morgan's  Louis- 
iana &  Texas,  Iberia  &  Vermillion.  Those  roads  comprise  one 
system  of  railroads,  the  Southern  Pacific  Atlantic  System. 

There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  $4.25  per  100  miles  for  d(>nd- 
heading. 

Mr.  Stone :    What  road  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  Chicago  &  Alton.  There  is  one  railroad 
that  pays  three  hours,  at  the  class  of  service  sent  to  perform. 

Mr.  Stone:    Well,  that  is  a  terminal  proposition,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  is  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio  Chicago  Terminal, 
l)ut,  as  I  understand  these  deadhead  rules,  a  terminal  railroad 
might  deadhead  a  man  over  the  Illinois  Central  for  a  witness, 
might  deadhead  him  to  an  investigation  and,  I  understand,  when 
a  man  deadheads  off  of  his  own  railroad,  under  these  rules,  he 
would  be  paid  these  rates — these  rates  would  apply.  Now,  that 
is  the  reason  that  I  spoke  about  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio  Chicago 
Terminal. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  mean  by  that  the  rate  that  is  paid  by  the 
company  where  he  is  emploj^ed? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir,  they  frequently  deadhead  men  over 
other  railroads,  and  his  rate  on  his  own  system  would  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean :    Not  now. 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  4  cents  a  mile 
for  half  of  the  actual  miles  traveled  when  deadlieading  on  a  pas- 
senger train.  That  is  the  Minneapolis,  St.  Poul  &  Sault  Ste. 
Marie.  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  4  cents  a  mile  for  the 
actual  miles  traveled. 

Mr.  Stone :     Or,  half  the  actual  miles  traveled? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Or  half  the  actual  miles  traveled,  in  either  pas- 
senger or  freight  service. 


i^  ^'♦'•V^  A  ^  k  M.W^.Wm  •  •  *  r; v^-^<&v  '"vvv^kftk.  -w^-.w. 


101 

Mr.  Stone :     What  road  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  is  the  Minneapolis  &  St.  Louis.  Tliere  is  one 
railroad  that  pays  46  cents  an  hour  for  deadhead  service. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  road  is  that,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  is  the  Louisiana  &  Arkansas.  There  is 
one  railroad  that  pays  4  cents  a  mile  for  less  than  50  miles; 
$4.00  for  50  miles,  up  to  100 ;  over  100  miles  4  cents  a  mile.  That 
is  the  Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas. 

Mr.  Stone:  No,  I  think  you  are  wrong  in  that,  Mr.  Cadle. 
They  have  a  different  deadhead  rate. 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  read  it  off. 

Mr.  Stone :  There  are  some  more  in  the  western  territory, 
are  there  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Just  wait  until  I  finish  that.  This  same  rail- 
road, they  pay  $4.80  for  deadheading  in  any  24  hour  period.  If 
less  than  50  miles  is  traveled,  one-half  that  amount  will  he  al- 
lowed.   That  is  the  Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas. 

Mr.  Stone:     The  other  railroad  is  not  given? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  that  is  the  completion  of  that  one  rail- 
road. 

There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  3  cents  a  mile  for  less  than 
50  miles.  50  miles  to  100  miles,  $3.  Over  100  miles,  3  cents  a 
mile. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  company  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  Missouri  Pacific.  There  is  one  railroad 
that  pays  4  1-2  cents  a  mile,  with  a  minimum  of  100  miles  for 
deadheading. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  road  is  that,  Mr.  Cadle  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     The  St.  Louis  &  Southwestern. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  not  your  rate  wrong  on  that  f  Is  it  not  4.3 
instead  of  4  8-4? 

Mr.  Cadle:  4,3,  yes.  There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  $4.40 
per  day.  If  other  service  is  performed  on  the  same  date,  will 
pay  half  a  daj"  for  six  hours  or  less  at  the  rate  of  $4.40. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  road  is  that,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Southern  Pacific.    The  Pacific  Svsteni. 

There  is  one  railroad  that  pays  2.65  cents  per  mile  for  dead- 
heading. 

Mr.  Stone :    What  line  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  Wabash  Eailroad. 


102 

Mr.  Stone:     When  you  speak  of  the  Wabash  Railroad,  you 
speak  of  the  lines  west  of  Detroit,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

The  Chairman:     Will  you  suspend?    We  will  adjourn  until 
one  o'clock  tomorrow.    We  will  not  meet  until  one  o'clock  to 
morrow,  owing  to  the  fact  that  one  member  of  the  Board  has 
another  engagement. 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  adjournment  now  is  until  one? 

The  Chairman:     Yes,  until  one.    Not  until  the  usual  hour, 
but  until  one. 

(Whereupon,  at  5  o'clock  P.  M.,  November  30,  1914,  an  ad- 
journment was  taken  until  1  o'clock  P.  M.  December  ],  1914.) 


»*•'-.  '♦W 


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TZWS 


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ft.*.! 


'^^  .  ^  *^-«- 


103 


IN^  THE  MATTER  OF  THE 

AEBITRATION 

between  the 

WESTERN  RAILWAYS 

and 

BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 

ENGINEERS 

and 

BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE  FIRE-' 

MEN  AND  ENGINEMEN 

under  the  Act  approved  July  15,  1913,  by  agree- 
ment dated  August  3,  1914. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  Dec.  1,  1914. 

Met,  pursuant  to  adjournment,  at  1  o  'clock  P.  M. 
Present:     Arbitrators  and  parties  as  before. 
The  Chairman :     Proceed  with  vour  testimony. 

«^  %■' 

Mr,  Stone :  With  the  permission  of  the  Board  I  desire  to 
read  a  statement  into  the  record.  Yesterday  a  question  came 
up  in  regard  to  Article  7,  ''Automatic  Release,"  in  regard  to 
certain  classes  of  service,  and  I  should  like  to  read  this  statement 
into  the  record.     (Reading.) 

Referring  to  Article  7,  "Automatic  Release,"  and  our  state- 
ment of  November  30,  that  it  was  not  intended  to  apply  to  "sub- 
urban service,"  and  the  request  of  Mr.  Sheean  that  our  state- 
ment be  made  more  definite,  we  desire  to  file  the  following : 

Our  files  show  that,  under  date  of  April  23,  1914,  the  Chair- 
man of  the  Conference  Committee  of  Managers  wrote  us  a  letter 
asking  many  questions  as  to  the  application  of  the  several 
articles  we  had  presented,  including  the  following: 

"Art.  7.  Does  this  apply  to  Helper,  Pusher  and  Work 
Train  service?" 

Under  date  of  April  30,  1914,  we  replied  as  follows : 

"Art.  7.  Answer:  The  proposed  Automatic  Release  rule 
does  not  apply  to  regular  helper  or  pusher  service,  nor  does  it 
apply  to  work  train  service,  regular  or  otherwise,  except  when  in 


104 

either  service  scliediiles  in  effect  October  10,  1913,  contain  such 
provision." 

Again,  in  our  letter  of  same  date  is  the  following  language: 

"Art.  7.  Our  proposal  does  not  contemplate  the  applica- 
tion of  tlio  Automatic  I^olease  rule  to  Suburban  Service." 

That  this  was  so  understood  by  the  Association  of  Western 
Railways  is  proven  by  their  letter  of  May  2,  1914,  addressed  to 
us,  which  reads,  in  part  as  follows: 

*' Because  of  the  statement  contained  in  your  reply  of  April 
27,  that  Article  7,  Automatic  Release  and  Tie-Up,  did  not  apply 
to  Suburban  Service,  a  material  reduction  from  figures  given 
verbally  is  made." 

Our  position  regarding  the  modification  of  Article  7;  to  the 
extent  indicated  in  our  letter  to  Mr.  Trenholm,  under  date  of 
April  30,  1914,  remains  the  same  now  as  when  that  letter  was 
written,  and  we  are  willing  that  the  Board  of  Arbitration  should 
so  consider  the  article. 

It  is  understood,  of  course,  that  the  Automatic  Release  does 
apply  to  all  other  classes  of  service  that  we  have  not  named 
here.    The  article  is  only  modified  to  that  extent. 

The  Chairman:  You  have  not  finished  with  the  witness 
who  was  under  examination,  have  vou? 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Chairman,  an  imfortunate  thing  has  hap- 
pened that  cannot  be  avoided.  Our  witness  whom  we  had  on 
the  stand  yesterday,  Mr.  Cadle,  is  very  sick,  under  a  doctor's 
care,  and  it  will  be  impossible  for  him  to  come  on  the  witness 
stand  this  afternoon.  Just  as  soon  as  he  is  able,  he  will  return 
and  complete  his  testimony  and  be  subject  to  cross-examination. 
In  the  meantime,  it  will  be  necessary  for  us  to  place  another 
witness  on  the  stand. 

The  Chairman :     Call  your  witness. 

WALTER  D.  MOORE  was  called  as  a  witness  and,  having 
been  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Phillips:    Please  state  your  full  name? 
Mr.  Moore :    Walter  D.  Moore. 


^»-.  •  ^si't  i»    ■  ■ '  j.Vk  I iv^»j  .    ■  '  ^^jm£  '»  •m* 


105 

Mr.  Phillips:     What  is  your  business! 

Mr.  Moore:  I  am  employed  as  a  clerk  in  the  office  of  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:     How  long  have  you  been  so  employed? 

Air.  Moore:     Nearly  a  year. 

Mr.  Phillips:  What  was  your  business  prior  to  that  time? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  was  employed  as  a  fireman  and  engineer 
on  the  Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas  Railroad. 

Mr.  Phillips:  How  long  did  you  serve  as  a  fireman  and 
engineer  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  began  service  as  a  fireman  on  August  2, 
1902,  and  was  promoted  to  the  position  of  engineer  December 
13,  1912. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  are  now  employed  as  a  clerk  by  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :     In  their  Grand  Lodge  office  f 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  As  a  clerk  of  this  Brotherhood  have  you 
compiled  any  information  pertaining  to  rates  of  pay  for  firemen 
and  hostlers  in  this  Western  territory? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  have  here  a  volume  entitled  ''Locomotive 
Firemen  and  Hostlers'  Request,  compared  with  similar  rates 
and  rules  in  effect  on  railroads  participating  in  this  arbitra- 
tion." Do  you  identify  this  as  the  compilation  of  data  which 
you  have  prepared? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes, 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  please,  we  desire  to  introduce 
this  as  Exhibit  No.  2. 

(The  book  entitled  "Locomotive  P'iremen's  &  Hostlers' 
Request,"  so  offered  and  identified,  was  received  in  evidence  and 
marked  "Employes'  Exhibit  No.  2,  December  1,  1914.") 

Mr.  Phillips :  Has  this  information  been  compiled  by  you 
personally,  Mr.  Moore? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  How  has  the  data  been  gathered,  or  how  has 
this  exhibit  been  prepared? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  have  taken  the  articles  of  the  different 
schedules  of  the  roads,  parties  to  these  negotiations,  and  grouped 


lOG 

them  iHidor  cacli  of  the  16  propositions  subniittod  by  the 
engineers  and  firemen;  and,  in  addition,  I  have  selected  26  geii- 
eral  subjects  and  grouped  the  remaining  articles  of  the  schedules 
nnder  each  of  the  general  subjects  as  relate  to  such  subjects. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  the  rules  under  these  subjects  repro- 
duced in  their  entirety? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  they  are  an  exact  reproduction  of  the 
articles  of  schedules,  except,  in  some  instances,  it  has  been  neces- 
sary to  make  an  insertion  to  show  what  the  rule  reproduced 
referred  to,  and  when  such  insertion  has  been  made  they  are 
enclosed  in  brackets. 

For  instance,  if  you  will  kindly  turn  to  page  No.  2  of  the 
text  matter  of  exhibits,  you  will  note  a  one  line  paragraph,  about 
a  quarter  of  the  way  up  from  the  bottom  of  the  page,  reading : 

''Ten  hours  or  less  to  constitute  a  day's  work  on  helper 
service.    Overtime,  pro  rata." 

This  paragraph  is  taken  from  a  schedule  in  which  helper 
service  is  covered  by  four  or  five  paragraphs,  and  to  show  that 
it  refers  to  helper  service  in  particular  I  insert  the  words,  "in 
helper  service,"  so  as  to  make  it  clear  that  the  reading  of  the 
schedule,  "Ten  hours  or  less  to  constitute  a  day's  work.  Over- 
time pro  rata,"  refers  to  helper  service. 

Mr.  Phillii:>s :  Then,  if  I  understand  you  correctly,  the  rule 
as  it  appears  in  the  schedule  would  read,  "Ten  hours  or  less  to 
constitute  a  day's  work.    Overtime,  pro  rata." 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And,  you  insert  the  words  "in  helper  serv- 
ice" in  brackets  to  indicate  that  the  specific  rule  applies  to  helper 
service  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     That  is  clear  in  the  schedule,  is  it! 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  How  is  it  made  clear?  By  the  caption  of  the 
rule  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  The  four  or  five  paragraphs  covering  helper 
service  are  considered  under  the  general  caption  "Helper 
service. ' ' 

Mr.  Phillips :  Would  these  other  paragraphs,  relating  pos- 
sibly to  rates  of  pay  for  other  conditions  of  service,  appear 


107 

under  the  proper  heads  at  the  different  pUices  in  this  exhibit? 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Turn  back  to  page  1.  This  first  article, 
Article  1.  ''Basis  of  a  day's  work," — is  this  the  exact  Article  1 
contained  in  the  Articles  submitted  to  arbitration? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  reproduced  here  in  the  same  language? 

Mr.  Moore :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  If  the  Board  please,  I  think  it  will  save  time 
not  to  read  that  again.    It  was  read  into  the  record  yesterday. 

The  Chairman:     Yes,  it  is  not  necessary  to  read  it. 

Mr.  Phillips  :     We  merely  wish  to  identify  the  Article  ? 

The  Chairman:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Has  every  road  represented  in  this  move- 
ment a  rule  of  this  kind,  or  some  similar  rule,  in  their  schedules 
for  firemen  and  hostlers? 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  many  roads  wbich  have  a  rule  in 
passenger  service  defining  a  day's  work  of  five  hours  or  less, 
and  tbere  are  quite  a  good  many  roads  which  have  a  definition 
defining  a  day's  work  in  freight  service  as  ten  hours  or  less. 
There  are,  however,  other  roads  in  passenger  service  which  have 
eight  hours  as  a  day's  work,  and  some  which  have  ten  hours  a 
day  in  passenger  service,  and  some  on  the  schedule  of  the  trains ; 
and,  in  freight  service,  there  are  a  few  roads  which  have  an 
eight-hour  day,  and  one  road  which  has  a  nine-hour  day,  of  the 
roads  represented  in  these  negotiations. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Mr.  Moore,  I  would  like  to  call  your  atten- 
tion to  the  figures  in  brackets  near  the  bottom  of  page  1.  ''p. 
25,26,27."    To  what  do  they  refer? 

Mr.  Moore :  They  refer  to  the  page  number  of  the  schedule 
from  which  this  reproduction  is  taken. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is  to  say,  this,  I  take  it,  is  reproduced 
from  the  schedule  of  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  Kailway 
Company,  Coast  Lines  ? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir,  on  pages  25,  26  and  27. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  would  be  the  schedule  page  of  their 
existing  schedule  or  working  agreement? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

•Mr.  Phillips :  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  a  number 
of  railroads  already  bad  a  day  in  passenger  service  of  five  hours 
or  less  ? 


108 

Mr.  Moore:     Yos,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliillips:     ITowmany? 

Mr.  Moore:  Accordiiio-  to  the  soliediiles,  there  are  fifteen 
roads  in  these  nei^'otiations  tliat  have  a  day  five  liours  or  less,  or 
better,  or  ten  liours  or  less  or  better. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  those  roads  all  included  in  the  move- 
ment? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliillips :  Are  the  schedule  rules  reproduced  here  taken 
only  from  schedules  of  roads  participating  in  this  movement? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  have  not  included  the  rules  of  roads  in 
the  western  territory  not  parties  to  this  arbitration  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     No,  sir,  they  are  not  included. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  any  roads  a  ten-hour  day  in  freight 
service  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir.  A  majority  of  the  roads  have  a 
ten-hour  day  in  the  freight  service.  To  be  exact,  there  are  52 
of  the  roads  represented  in  these  negotiations  which  have  a  ten- 
hour  day  in  the  freight  service. 

Mr.  Philli]is:  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  some  of  the 
roads  had  a  shorter  dav  than  a  ten-hour  dav? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir,  there  are  nine  roads  which  have  a 
day  shorter  than  ten  hours  in  freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillips:     What  roads  are  they,  please? 

Mr.  Moore :  Those  which  have  an  eight-hour  daj^  in  freight 
service  are  the  El  Paso  &  Southwestern;  the  Houston  &  Texas 
Central ;  the  Houston,  East  &  West  Texas ;  the  St.  Louis,  Browns- 
ville &  Mexico;  the  San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass;  Southern 
Pacific,  Atlantic  System;  Southern  Pacific  System,  except  moun- 
tain districts  over  100  miles;  the  Denver  &  Eio  Grande,  Utah 
Line,  have  an  eight-hour  day,  and  the  Canadian  Northern  has  a 
nine-hour  day. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Those  roads  have  a  day,  as  you  understand, 
from  their  schedules,  shorter  than  the  day  asked  for  in  this  arbi- 
tration? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliilli]is :  And  52  of  the  remaining  roads,  the  majority, 
I  believe  you  said,  liave  a  ten-hour  day,  as  requested. 

Mr.  Moore :    Yes,  sir. 


109 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  the  rules  showing  the  basis  for  these 
days'  pay  all  reproduced  here? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

jMr.  Phillips:  For  every  one  of  the  roads  parties  to  this 
schedule  liavina;-  such  a  rule? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Have  you  indexed  this  exhibit,  Mr.  Moore? 

i\Ir.  Moore:  I  did  not  personally  index  it.  It  has  been 
indexed,  however. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Now,  turn  to  page  64,  please,  Article  2,  rates 
of  pay.  That  is  the  same  article  contained  in  the  16  articles  sub- 
mitted to  arbitration? 

Mr.  Moore:  It  is  a  part  of  Article  2,  which  is  contained 
in  the  original  16  articles.  This  jDarticular  part  of  Article  2 
refers  to  rates  of  pay  in  passenger  and  freight  service  as  used 
in  this  exhibit.  However,  to  make  the  reproductions  absolutely 
clear  as  to  the  different  classes  of  service  covered  by  Article  2, 
I  have  subdivided  Article  2  into  five  separate  headings,  and  the 
articles  of  the  schedule  that  relate  to  these  headings  are  repro- 
duced under  the  headings. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  Article  2  covers  several  different  mat- 
ters, does  it? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir.  I  have,  in  this  exhibit,  divided 
Article  2  under  five  headings.  The  first  covers  rate  of  pay,  pas- 
senger and  freight  service;  the  second  heading  covers  rate  of 
pay,  pusher,  helper,  mine  runs,  work,  wreck,  belt  line,  transfer 
and  all  other  unclassified  service ;  the  third  heading  covers  differ- 
ential, account  of  grades;  the  fourth  heading  covers,  rates  of 
pay,  narrow  gauge  locomotives;  and  the  fifth  division  covers 
rates  of  pay,  electric  service. 

My.  Phillips :  Under  these  respective  headings  have  you 
produced  the  exact  rules  from  the  various  schedules  covering  the 
services  named? 

Mr,  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And,  this  tabulation  here  refers  only  to  the 
rates  of  pay  for  firemen  in  passenger  and  freight  service? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  note  here  the  entire  tabulation  appears  to 
be  based  upon  a  weight  on  drivers  plan,  beginning  with  80,000 
pounds  on  drivers  and  running  up  to  a  somewhat  higher  weight, 


110 

400,000  pounds,  or  something  like  tliat.  Have  any  roads  in  this 
movement  a  schedule  wherein  firemen  are  compensated  on  a 
basis  of  weight  on  drivers? 

Mr.  ]\Ioore:  Yes,  sir.  Tliere  are  17  roads  in  these  nego- 
tiations which  have  either  in  whole  or  in  part  a  basis  of  pay, 
based  on  weights  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Could  you  name  those  roads?  Have  you  a 
list  of  them? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir,  the  arbitration  award  of  1910  for 
firemen  provides  that,  on  simple  engines  with  cylinders  of  24 
inches  or  over  in  diameter  and  compound  engines  weighing  215,- 

000  jDounds  or  more  on  drivers,  the  rate  of  pay  for  firemen 
would  be  $3.75,  and  there  are  43  roads  represented  in  these 
negotiations  which  were  parties  to  the  negotiations  of  1910.  In 
addition  to  this  particular  class  of  engine,  as  to  weights  on 
drivers,  the  following  railroads  have  one  or  more  classifications: 
The  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  Coast  Line;  the  Atchison,  To- 
peka  &  Santa  Fe,  proper;  the  Chicago  &  North  Western;  the 
Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  Puget  Sound  Line ;  the  Duluth, 
South  Shore  &  Atlantic;  Mineral  Eange;  the  Gulf,  Colorado  & 
Santa  Fe;  the  Kansas  City  Southern;  the  Missouri,  Kansas  & 
Texas ;  the  Oregon  Short  Line ;  the  Oregon  &  Washington  Eail- 
road  &  Navigation  Company;  the  St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco ;  the 
Southern  Pacific,  Atlantic  System;  Southern  Pacific,  Pacific  Sys- 
tem; the  Spokane,  Portland  &  Seattle;- the  Union  Pacific  and  the 
Western  Pacific.  Now,  all  these  roads  I  have  named  have  some 
schedules  containing  only  the  classification  of  the  locomotives 
in  service,  while,  in  the  general  text  of  the  schedule,  the  basis 
of  rates  of  pay  is  fixed  upon  a  cylinder  or  some  other  basis 
rather  than  weights  on  drivers,  and  these  roads  which  contain 
one  classification  in  the  schedule,  with  the  rates  of  pay  following, 
are  the  Chicago  &  North  Western;  the  Missouri,  Kansas  & 
Texas;  the  Oregon  Short  Line  and  the  Union  Pacific.  Of  this 
number,  I  might  state  that,  since  this  book  has  been  compiled, 

1  have  learned  that  the  classification  as  given  in  the  schedule 
furnished  us  for  the  Chicago  &  North  Western  is  not  absolutely 
correct ;  that  is,  it  was  correct  so  far  as  the  Chairman  knew  up 
to  last  October — not  last  October,  but  October,  1913 — the  sched- 
ule furnished  us  from  which  this  exhibit  was  compiled  for  the 
Chicago  &  North  Western  was  a  tj-pewritten  schedule,  they  hav- 
ing had  no  signed  schedule  in  its  entirety  since  1907. 


Ill 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  you  have  been  advised  that  the  com- 
pany or  the  Chairman,  the  representative  of  the  men  on  that 
road,  had  received  information  that  was  not  entirely  accurate? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:    And  he  had  so  informed  you? 

Mr.  Moore :  It  was  accurate,  I  so  understand,  up  to  Octo- 
l3er,  1913. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  said,  I  iDelieve,  that  43  roads  partici- 
pated in  some  former  settlement  or  concerted  wage  movement 
wherein  weight  on  drivers  was  adopted  as  a  basis  for  fixing  fire- 
men's pay  to  some  extent,  at  least. 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  sir,  for  compound  engines  weighing  215,- 
000  pounds  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Would  that  mean  that  there  were  43  roads 
having  weight  on  drivers  as  a  basis,  to  that  extent,  anyway? 

Mr.  Moore :  No,  sir,  I  do  not  understand  it  that  way.  The 
understanding  is  that  the  agreement  affected  43  roads.  Whether 
they  had  this  particular  class  of  engine  in  service  or  not  I  am 
not  prepared  to  state. 

Mr.  Phillips:  They  would  only  apply  if  they  had  the  en- 
gines of  such  a  dimension  or  weight? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  they  had  such  an  engine  it  would  apply? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  On  these  other  roads  which  you  have  just 
named,  they  make  a  part  or  all  of  their  classification,  for  fixing 
rates  of  compensation,  on  the  weight  on  drivers  basis? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  produce,  in  their  entirety,  all  of  the  rules 
and  the  rates  following  this  Article  2,  or  this  subdivision  of 
Article  2,  beginning  on  page  64? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir,  covering  freight  and  passenger 
ser\T.ce. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Yes,  I  understood  you  to  say  this  pertained 
to  freight  and  passenger  service  only? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  turn  to  page  105,  please,  Mr.  Moore. 
This,  I  believe  you  explained,  is  a  subdivision  of  Article  2,  one 
of  the  subdivisions  of  Article  2  submitted  to  arbitration? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 


112 

Mr.  Pliillips:  And  refers  to  pusher,  lielper,  mine  runs, 
work,  wreck,  belt  line,  transfer  and  other  unclassified  service? 

Mr,  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  any  of  the  roads  in  this  western  terri- 
tory, parties  to  this  arbitration,  pay  through  freight  rates  to 
firemen  for  any  of  the  different  services  enumerated  in  this 
article  or  this  subdivision  of  Article  2? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir.  I  find  there  are  40  roads  which  pay 
for  either  all  or  part  of  the  services  mentioned  in  this  subdi- 
vision of  Article  2  on  a  through  freight  basis. 

Mr.  Pliillips :  Do  any  of  the  roads  have  a  rule  exactly  like 
this? 

Mr.  Moore:    Not  in  that  exact  language. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But,  I  understand  you  to  say,  forty  of  the 
roads  pay  through  freight  rates  to  firemen  for  some  of  the  serv- 
ices here  enumerated? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  It  is  possible,  is  it  not,  that  some  of  the  serv- 
ice there  enumerated  would  not  be  found  on  all  of  the  railroads  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is,  some  roads  may  not  have  mine  run 
service,  and  other  roads  may  not  have  pusher  and  helper  serv- 
ice, and  then  other  roads  may  not  have  transfer  service? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliillips :  But  you  find  forty  roads  that  do  pay  for  all 
or  part  of  this  service  through  freight  rates? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  you  prepared  to  give  the  number  of 
roads  that  pay  through  freight  rates  to  pusher  and  helper 
service  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  According  to  the  schedules  there  are  seven 
roads  wliicli  pay  through  freight  rates  to  pusher  and  helper 
service. 

Mr.  Phillips:     How  about  work  train  service? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  find  that,  according  to  the  schedules,  there 
are  fifteen  roads  which  pay  through  freight  rates  for  work  train 
service. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  any  of  the  roads  pay  through  freight 
rates  for  wrecking  service  1 

Mr.  Moore :  The  schedules  show  that  there  are  five  roads 
which  pay  through  freight  rates  for  wrecking  service. 


113 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  uiulerstand  you  to  say  you  had  had  some 
experience  as  an  engineer  and  fireman? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  understand  what  is  meant  by  this 
term  '* Other  unclassified  service?" 

Mr.  Moore :  I  understand  the  term  to  mean  the  classes  of 
service  which  may  not  possibly  be  covered  in  the  schedule. 
''Other  unclassified  service,"  as  used  here,  means,  as  I  infer, 
service  not  particularly  mentioned,  not  otherwise  covered  in 
the  schedule. 

Mr.  Phillips :     To  specify,  such  as  circus  trains  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     Circus  trains. 

Mr.  Phillips.     Snow  plows? 

Mr.  Moore :     Snow  plow  service. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  breaking  in  engines,  and  light  engines 
and  various  service  of  that  kind  that  is  irregular  and  intermit- 
tent, and  not  sufficiently  regular  to  be  enumerated  as  regular 
service  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  that  what  you  mean  by  other  unclassified 
service  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Did  you  make  any  check,  or  are  you  pre- 
pared to  state  whether  any  of  the  roads  pay  through  freight 
rates  for  any  of  these  various  classes  of  service? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  in  a  list  that  I  have  here  of  the  forty 
roads,  there  are  quite  a  number  of  roads  which  pay  through 
freight  rates  for  snow  plow  service,  mixed  train  service,  circus 
train  service,  and  so  forth. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Those  rules  are  all  contained  in  the  rules 
following  here,  from  the  different  railroads,  where  such  rules 
exist? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  turn  next  to  page  164.  This  is  still  a 
subdivision  of  Article  2,  and  has  reference  to  rates  of  pay  on 
divisions  where  grade  is  1.8  per  cent  and  other? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  How  many  roads  in  the  Western  territory  al- 
low a  differential  on  account  of  mountain  grades  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     According  to  the  schedule  there  are  eleven 


114 

roads  which  allow  a  differential  on  account  of  mountain  grades. 

Mr.  Phillii:>s:  "Will  you  please  give  the  names  of  those 
roads? 

Mr.  Moore:  The  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe — Coast 
Lines,  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  proper,  the  Canadian 
Pacific,  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul — Puget  Sound  Lines, 
the  Colorado  &  Southern,  the  Denver  &  Rio  Grande,  the  Great 
Northern,  the  Northern  Pacific,  the  Oregon  &  Washington  Rail- 
road &:  Navigation  Company,  the  Santa  Fe,  Prescott  &  Phoenix, 
the  Southern  Pacific  Company — Pacific  System. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  any  of  the  roads  a  rule  like  the  rule 
here  proposed? 

Mr.  Moore :  The  Great  Northern  has  a  rule  providing  for 
a  ten  per  cent  differential. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Upon  parts  of  the  road  where  the  grade  is 
1.8  per  cent  or  over? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  How  are  the  rules  on  the  other  roads  you 
have  enumerated !    Are  they  variable  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir,  they  differ  considerably.  On  some 
roads  the  allowance  is  on  a  trip  basis.  On  others,  constructive 
mileage  is  allowed.  On  others,  additional  allowance  is  made, 
and,  on  one  road,  they  have  a  ten  per  cent  differential. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  say  it  is  allowed  on  a  trip  basis  in  some 
cases.    What  are  we  to  understand  by  that,  Mr.  Moore  1 

Mr.  Moore :  I  understand  that,  we  will  say,  for  a  trip  of 
115  miles,  on  account  of  the  grade,  ten  additional  miles  is 
allowed. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Then,  a  fireman  would  receive  125  miles  for 
the  trip,  instead  of  the  actual  miles — 115  ? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  that  uniform,  or  is  the  allowance  more  in 
some  cases  and  less  in  other  cases? 

Mr.  Moore :  It  varies  with  the  grade,  as  I  understand  it. 
It  is  in  some  instances  only  five  miles.  In  the  Denver  &  Rio 
Grande,  I  understand,  some  divisions  are  paid  a  day  for  44 
miles. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is,  they  allow  to  a  fireman  a  day's  pay 
for  less  tlian  100  miles? 

Mr.  Moore :    Yes,  44  miles. 


115 

Mr.  Phillips :  For  as  little  as  44  miles  they  allow  a  full 
day's  pay? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  I  do  not  suppose  you  are  familiar  with  con- 
ditions on  the  Denver  &  Eio  Grande  Railroad? 

Mr.  Moore :    No,  sir,  not  at  all. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Your  knowledge  of  these  rules  is  gained 
from  reading  them  and  compiling  them  in  this  volume  ? 

Mr.  Moore :     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  the  understanding  you  have  is  gained 
from  your  reading  of  them  and  their  most  plain  and  obvious 
meaning  ? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  These  rules  are  all  contained  here,  the  same 
as  in  the  preceding 

Mr.  Moore  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  In  connection  with  this  gradient  differential 
do  the  rules  disclose  that,  in  some  instances,  the  rates  of  pay, 
the  mileage  rates,  the  basic  rates,  I  mean,  are  higher  in  moun- 
tain territory  than  in  valley  territory? 

Mr.  Moore  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Where  this  rate  of  pay  was  higher,  would 
this  differential  also  be  allowed  at  the  higher  rate  of  pay  under 
the  rules? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  understand  that,  according  to  the  proposed 
rule,  a  ten  per  cent  differential  will  be  allowed  over  the  usual 
through  freight  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Now,  for  example,  if  the  Atchison,  Topeka  & 
Santa  Fe  had  a  higher  rate  west  of  La  Junta  (which  is  getting 
into  mountain  territory,  I  believe)  than  it  has  east  of  La  Junta, 
as  shown  by  the  schedule  and,  then,  in  addition  ten  miles  excess 
or  constructive  or  mountain  mileage  were  allowed  on  some  par- 
ticular district,  would  that  fireman  receive  (assuming  that  it  was 
110  miles  distance),  would  he  receive  120  miles,  at  the  higher 
rate?    Do  you  understand  the  schedules  to  so  allow? 

Mr.  Moore:  Well,  not  being  familiar  with  the  way  in 
which  the  schedule  article  does  apply,  I  am  not  prepared  to 
state. 

Mr.  Phillips :     You  never  worked  that  out  ? 

Mr.  Moore :     I  never  worked  out  that. 


IIG 

!Mr.  Phillips :  These  rules,  I  understand,  are  quite  vari- 
able? 

Mr.  Moore :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And,  only  on  one  road  is  a  rule  exactly  like 
this  in  effect? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe,  if  you  will  turn  to  page  177,  now, 
we  still  have  another  subdivision  of  Article  2,  ''Narrow  gauge 
locomotives."  How  many  railroads  participating  in  this 
arbitration  have  narrow  gauge  locomotives  according  to  the 
schedule  f 

Mr.  Moore:     Three  roads. 
■    Mr.  Phillips :     Will  you  name  the  roads,  please? 

Mr.  Moore :  Chicago  &  North  Western ;  Colorado  &  South- 
ern ;  Denver  &  Rio  Grande. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  you  made  any  comparison  to  ascertain 
the  rates  of  pay  on  these  narrow  gauge  lines  compared  with  the 
rates  for  locomotives  on  broad  gauge  lines? 

Mr.  Moore:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  You  have  reproduced  the  rates  of  pay,  how- 
ever, and  the  rules  for  the  narrow  gauge  service? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  let  us  turn  to  page  180.  This  also  is  a 
subdivision  of  Article  2,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  To  what  does  this  section  or  subdivision  of 
Article  2  apply? 

Mr.  Moore:     To  electric  service. 

j\Ir.  Pliillips:  According  to  the  schedules,  on  how  many 
western  railroads  is  a  second  man  or  a  helper  used  on  any 
kind  of  power  other  than  locomotive  engines?  I  mean  any  kind 
of  propelling  power,  such  as  gasoline,  or  electric  cars,  or  elec- 
tric motors? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  understand  that  there  is  only  one  road  upon 
which  an  additional  man  is  employed,  and  that  is  the  Great 
Northern. 

Mr.  Phillips :     They  employ  a  second  man  on  the 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  turning  to  the  article  for  a  moment. 
You  will  note,  it  reads  at  the  last  part  of  the  paragraph: — 


117 

"The  term  'Helper'  will  be  understood  to  mean  the  second  man 
employed  on  electric  locomotives  or  other  power".  Wonld  you 
understand  the  rates  here  proposed  would  apply  to  that  second 
man  f 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  sir,  the  rates  proposed  for  helj)er  would 
apply  to  the  second  man. 

Mr.  Phillips:     He  would  be  a  helper? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     What  is  he  called,  in  the  schedule  I 

Mr.  Moore:  On  the  Great  Northern,  he  is  called  a  trolley 
man. 

The  Chairman:     Called  a  what? 

Mr.  Moore:     A  trolley  man. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Do  you  give  his  rate  of  pay  here  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  sir,  $3.30,  ten  hours  or  less,  100  miles  or 
less. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  that  electric  locomotive  were  used  on  a 
part  of  the  territory  where  a  gradient  ditferential  of  10  per 
cent  was  allowed,  w^ould  you  understand  that  he  would  be  en- 
titled to  that  gradient  differential? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  would,  in  view  of  the  fact  that  there  is  no 
difference  made  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Then,  if  his  basic  rate  is $3.30,  did  you 

sav! 

Mr.  Moore :     $3.30,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  lie  received  a  gradient  differential  of 
ten  per  cent  (providing  he  worked  in  such  territory)  w^ould 
he  receive,  according  to  the  schedule,  $3.30  plus  ten  per  cent, 
or  plus  33  cents? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:      Or  $3.63  for  ten  hours  or  less? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir,  that  is  my  understanding. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  where  these  electric  locomo- 
tives were  used  on  the  Great  Northern? 

Mr.  Moore:     No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is  the  only  road  the  schedules  show 
that  has  a  second  man  on  any  kind  of  power  other  than  steam 
power  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliillij^s :     You  include  a  rule  here,  Mr.  Moore,  on  page 


118 

181  —  quite  an  extensive  rule,  quoted  evidently  from  the  St. 
Louis,  Brownsville  &  Mexico  Kailroad.  Do  the  rates  con- 
tained therein  apply  to  electric  service? 

Mr.  Moore:  When  this  l)ook  was  prepared  I  was  under 
the  impression  that  tlie  rates  of  pay  for  through  freight  and 
local  freight,  as  mentioned  in  tliis  book,  referred  to  electric 
service,  because  of  the  fact  that  it  is  the  only  scliedule  in  the 
Western  territory  that  has  a  basis  of  pay  based  upon  tractive 
power,  and  the  article  proposed  for  electric  service  is  basis 
of  power  based  on  tractive  power,  and  I  fell  into  the  error 
that  this  particular  part  referred  to  electric  service.  Since 
that  time,  I  have  learned  that  only  the  last  line  in  rates,  that  is 
''Motor  Cars:  Ten  hours  or  less,  $4",  refers  to  electric  ser\dce, 
and  that  $4  should  be  $4.40.  The  rest  of  the  article  is  taken 
from  the  schedule  as  it  appears  under  electric  service. 

Mr.  Philhps:  That  line,  then — the  second  line  under  the 
tabulation  ''Local  Freight"  should  read  $4.40  instead  of  $4? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir.  I  have  made  a  pen  correction  of 
the  error. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Pardon  me,  did  you  correct  the  books,  the 
copies  that  have  been  offered  in  evidence? 

Mr.  Moore :     I  think  thev  are  all  corrected. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then,  as  I  understand  it,  this  rule,  although 
quoted  under  the  caption  "Rates  of  j^ay,  electric  service"  ap- 
plies to  steam  sei'vice,  with  the  exception  of  that  one  line  making 
proWsion  for  motor  car  service? 

Mr.  Moore :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  rules  wdiich  follow  apply  to  motor  car 
service,  do  they  not? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But,  so  far  as  the  rates  of  pay  are  con- 
cerned, that  is  the  only  reference  to  anything  besides  steam 
locomotive  ser\dce? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  if  you  will  turn  with  me  to  page  182, 
"Article  3,  Local  and  Way  Freight  Service,"  on  how  many  roads 
in  the  Western  territory  is  a  differential  for  firemen  in  the  local 
or  way  freight  service  allowed? 

Mr.  Moore:     I  find,  according  to  the  schedule,  there  are 


119 

46  roads  in  which  a  differential  is  allowed  between  local  and 
through  freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Have  any  of  these  roads  rules  defining  what 
local  or  way  freight  service  is  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  the  schedules  show  there  are  seven  roads 
with  rules  defining  local  or  way  freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  those  rules  anything  like  the  rule  here 
proposed? 

Mr.  Moore :  Not  exactly  like  the  rule  here  proposed.  The 
rules,  however,  define  what  constitutes  way  freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  say  tliey  are  not  exactly  like  this  rule 
here?    Are  they  similar  in  any  respect? 

Mr.  Moore :     The  Chicago  &  North  Western  has  a  rule 

Mr.  Phillips :     On  what  page  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  On  page  184.  That  rule  reads :  ' '  All  trains 
loading  or  unloading  way-freight  or  doing  station  switching, 
shall  be  classed  as  way-freights,  and  firemen  shall  receive  com- 
pensation accordingly.  This  shall  not  be  construed  to  apply  to 
through  trains  setting  out  or  picking  up  car  loads,  or  handling 
small  lots  of  local  freight  in  case  of  emergency." 

The  Chicago  Great  Western  Railroad  has  a  rule  somewhat 
similar  to  the  one  contained  in  the  schedule  for  the  Chicago  & 
North  Western.  That  rule  is  found  on  page  185,  and  reads  as 
follows : 

•'All  trains  loading  or  unloading  way  freight  or  doing  sta- 
tion switching,  or  run  for  switching  purposes,  shall  be  classed  as 
way-freight  or  switch  trains,  and  firemen  shall  receive  way- 
freight  compensation  for  entire  trip. 

''This  shall  not  be  construed  to  apply  to  through  freight 
trains  setting  out  or  picking  up  car  loads  or  handling  small  lots 
of  local  freight  in  cases  of  emergency. ' ' 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  have  reproduced  the  other  rules-,  have 
you,  from  the  roads  having  them? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir,  they  are  all  contained  in  this  article. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  please,  I  do  not  want  to  burden 
the  record;  and  I  may  say  in  explanation  that  it  has  been  our 
purpose  to  have  tliese  rules  compiled  in  such  a  way  that  they 
might  be  referred  to  readily  at  any  moment.     You  liave  there 


120 

first  the  articles  submitted  to  arl)itratioii,  and  every  rule  from 
every  railroad  beariiiu:  on  the  subject  covered  in  the  article. 

The  Chairman :  I  think  you  have  gone  far  enough  to  give 
us  a  fair  insight  into  the  exliibit. 

Mr.  Phillips:  ]\rr.  Moore,  in  one  of  the  rules  you  read^ — T 
believe  the  Chicago  &  North  Western — it  states  that  firemen 
''shall  receive  compensation  accordingly,"  without  going  into 
the  rate  of  pav.  AVould  vou  understand  from  that  clause  that 
firemen  would  receive  a  way-freight  differential  of  whatever  the 
amount  was  on  that  road? 

Mr.  Moore:  They  would  receive  the  rate  of  pay  ]U'ovided 
for  wav-freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :     If  it  was  a  differential  they  would  receive  it? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  said  40  roads  in  the  western 
country  allow  a  local  freight  differential  to  firemen. 

Mr.  Moore:     There  are  46  roads. 

Mr.  Phillips:    Was  it  46?    Pardon  me. 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Please  turn  next  to  page  201.  I  note  this 
article  is  also  headed  Article  Ill-b.  Have  you  subdivided  this 
article? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  this  is  a  part  of  the  original  article  as 
submitted  by  the  engineers  and  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  From  reading  this  article  I  understand  that 
provision  is  made  for  additional  pay  for  firemen  in  through 
freight  service  when  certain  labors  are  performed  enroute.  Is 
that  your  understanding  of  the  rule? 

Mr.  jSIoore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  any  of  the  roads  parties  to  this  arbi- 
tration rules  ])roviding  additional  j^ay  for  such  work  as  is  here 
defined  or  mentioned,  either  all  of  it  or  any  part  of  it? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  the  schedules  show  that  there  are  45 
roads  which  provide  an  additional  allowance  over  through 
freight  pay  for  the  service  mentioned. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Have  any  of  them  a  rule  very  much  like  this  ? 

Mr.  Moore :     No,  sir,  not  exactly  like  that. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  you  said  45  roads  -pay  for  some  part 
of  this  service? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes. 


121 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is,  loading  or  iniloading  freight,  stock, 
or  company  material,  switching  at  stations,  spurs  and  mines  and 
mills,  or  required  to  pick  up  or  set  out  cars,  unless  cars  to  be 
piqked  up  are  first  out,  or  cars  to  be  set  out  are  switched  at  ter- 
minals, or  doing  any  other  or  similar  work,  you  find  that  some 
or  aU  of  that  service  is  paid  for  on  45  roads? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Does  that  include  the  larger  systems  of  rail- 
roads? 

Mr.  Moore:     Practically  all  of  the  larger  systems. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Have  you  the  names  of  the  roads  there? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Please  read  them. 

Mr.  Moore:  The  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  Coast 
Lines;  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  proper;  Canadian 
Northern;  Canadian  Pacific;  Chicago  &  North  Western;  the 
Chicago,  Burlington  &,  Quincy ;  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul ; 
the  Chicago,  St.  Paul,  Minneapolis  &  Omaha ;  the  Denver  &  Rio 
Grande ;  the  Duluth,  South  Shore  &  Atlantic  and  Mineral  Range ; 
the  El  Paso  &  Southwestern ;  the  Esquimalt  &  Nanaimo ;  the  Ft. 
Worth  &  Denver  City;  the  Great  Northern;  the  Gulf,  Colorado 
&  Santa  Fe;  the  Kansas  City  Southern;  the  Minneapolis,  St. 
Paul  &  Sault  Ste.  Marie;  the  Missouri  &  North  Arkansas;  the 
Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas;  the  Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf;  the 
Missouri  Pacific-Iron  Mountain;  the  Northern  Pacific;  the  Ore- 
gon Short  Line;  the  Oregon  &  Washington  Railroad  &  Naviga- 
tion Company;  the  Rock  Island  Lines;  St.  Louis  &  San  Fran- 
cisco ;  the  St.  Louis,  Brownsville  &  Mexico ;  St.  Louis  Southwest- 
ern ;  the  San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass ;  the  San  Pedro,  Los  An- 
geles &  Salt  Lake;  the  Southern  Pacific,  Atlantic  System;  the 
Spokane,  Portland  &  Seattle;  the  Trinity  &  Brazos  Valley;  the 
Union  Pacific;  the  Wabash;  the  Western  Pacific;  the  Wichita 
Valley. 

All  these  roads  pay  an  additional  allowance  if  the  time 
exceeds  ten  hours  or  the  distance  100  miles. 

On  the  Chicago  Great  Western,  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  & 
St.  Paul,  Puget  Sound  Lines ;  the  Colorado  &  Southern ;  the  In- 
ternational &  Great  Northern;  the  Northern  Pacific;  the  San 
Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass;  the  San  Pedro,  Los  Angeles  &  Salt 
Lake;  the  Southern  Pacific- Atlantic  System,  and  the  Texas  Pa- 
cific, nine  roads,  an  arbitrary  allowance  is  paid. 


122 

Mr.  Phillips:  Wliat  do  you  mean  by  an  arbitrary  allow- 
ance? 

Mr.  Moore:  It  is  allowed  independent  of  mileage  or  time 
made  on  the  trip. 

Mr.  Phillips :     I  believe  you  are  reading  from  a  list  there. 
Mr.  Moore:  Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  the- names  of  the  roads  repeated  in  the 
list  you  read?  In  other  words,  do  they  appear  in  the  first  list 
you  read? 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  they  may  appear  in  the  first  list,  and  they 
also  appear  under  the  division  I  have  made  covering  arbitrary 
allowance.     There  are  four  repetitions  in  the  list  I  have  read. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  ain  I  to  understand  that  they  pay  for 
this  additional  service  on  the  number  of  roads  first  read,  and 
that  they  pay  it  as  an  arbitrary  allowance  on  the  number  of 
roads  last  read? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Is  that  your  statement? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  next  is  on  page  218,  Article  4,  Switching 
Service. 

How  many  of  the  roads  rejDresented  in  this  arbitration  have 
rules  governing  rates  of  pay  and  conditions  of  service  of  the 
firemen  in  yard  or  switching  sei^ice? 

Mr.  Moore :  The  schedules  show  there  are  61  roads  which 
have  switch  engine  regiilations. 

Mr.  Phillips:  On  how  many  of  these  roads  is  the  ten-hour 
dav  in  effect? 

Mr.  Moore:     On  57. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  any  of  the  roads  a  day  of  more  than 
ten  hours,  that  is,  longer  than  a  ten  hour  day? 

Mr.  Moore:  One  road,  the  Louisiana  &  Arkansas  has  a 
twelve  hour  day. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  yard  service? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  the  schedule  rules  disclose  that  any  of 
the  roads  are  paying  road  rates  to  firemen  working  in  yard 
service  when  road  engines  are  used  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  Not  in  that  identical  language,  but  there  are 
two  roads  which  pay  40  cents  per  hour  for — no,  I  don't  believe 
I  got  that  question. 


123 

Mr.  Phillips:  What  I  wish  to  bring  out,  Mr.  Moore,  is — 
the  last  part  of  Article  4  reads,  if  you  will  follow  me,  please: 
''When  road  engines  are  used  in  yard  service,  road  rates  will 
apply."  Now,  do  the  rules  on  these  roads  indicate  that  such  a 
rule  is  in  effect  on  any  of  the  roads  in  any  of  the  yards  of  any 
of  the  companies? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  have  been  unable  to  find  any  such  rule  in 
any  of  the  schedules. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  these  roads  have  schedules  containing  a 
provision,  in  their  schedules  or  working  agreements  with  their 
yard  men,  that  a  meal  hour  will  be  allowed? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir,  on  a  great  many  of  the  roads.  To 
be  exact,  there  are  58  roads  in  these  negotiations  whose  sched- 
ules provide  for  time  for  meals. 

Mr.  Phillips :     That  a  meal  hour  will  be  allowed? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is  practically  all  the  roads  in  the  move- 
ment, is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Moore :    All  but  three. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  have  spoken  of  the  majority  of  the 
roads  once  or  twice,  and  you  now  say  it  would  be  all  but  three. 
I  believe  the  statement  has  been  made  here  that  there  are  98 
roads  included  in  this  movement.  Did  you  deal  with  them  or, 
in  compiling  these  rules  in  the  different  schedules,  did  you  con- 
sider them  as  98  separate  roads? 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  quite  a  good  many  schedules  which 
cover  three  or  four  or  five  roads  that  are  listed  in  the  negotia- 
tions. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is,  the  schedule  for  the  firemen  will 
cover  a  system  under  the  parent  name  or  the  name  of  the  main 
line  and  several  subsidiary  lines.    Is  that  your  understanding? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And,  while  they  might  be  known  in  the 
Railway  Guide  under  several  different  names,  under  the  sched- 
ules which  govern  the  rates  of  pay  and  conditions  of  service  of 
firemen,  but  one  schedule  would  be  found? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  considered  that  one  road,  in  making  your 
compilation? 

Mr.  Moore :     I  have,  in  compiling  this  book. 


124 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  I  understand,  that  practically  all  of 
these  roads  have  a  ten  hour  day  for  firemen  in  yard  service? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  practically  all  of  them  grant  a  meal 
hour  to  the  men? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  you  prepared  to  state  at  about  what 
time  during-  the  day's  service  they  are  given  an  opportunity  to 
eat  their  lunch  or  dinner  or  supper,  as  the  case  may  be? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  understand  generally  the  sixth  hour  is  al- 
lowed for  the  meal  hour,  the  sixth  hour  from  the  beginning  of 
the  day's  work. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  have  included  all  the  rules  here  so  that 
that  may  be  easily  ascertained? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Turn  next  to  page  246,  if  you  please.  Ar- 
ticle 5,  preparatory  time.  Under  this  article  have  you  copied 
the  rules  from  the  Western  railroads  now  paying  preparatory 
time  to  firemen? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  How  many  roads  have  you  found  paying 
firemen  preparatory  time? 

Mr.  Moore :  According  to  the  schedule,  there  are  17  roads 
which  pay  preparatory  time  to  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  any  of  these  roads  pay  for  preparatory 
time  as  an  arbitrary  allowance? 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  four  roads  which  pay  for  prepara- 
tory time  as  an  arbitrary  allowance, 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  you  said  you  had  fired  an  engine 
some  and  run  an  engine  a  while? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  What  do  you  understand  by  preparatoiy 
time?  Has  your  experience  enabled  j^ou  to  state  what  may  be 
understood  from  the  term  '' preparatory  time"? 

Mr.  Moore :  From  mv  observation,  I  understand  the  term 
to  apply  to  the  time  consumed  by  the  engineer  and  fireman  in 
making  the  necessary  preparations  for  the  trip,  such  as  oiling 
around,  and  seeing  that  the  work  reported  on  the  engine  had  been 
properly  done,  inspecting  the  engine  to  see  that  it  was  in  proper 
shape  for  the  road  trip,  inspecting  the  bulletin  books  and  such 


125 

other  requirements  as  may  be  made  by  tlie  company ;  they  vary 
somewhat  on  different  roads. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  this  require  a  fireman  to  be  on  duty 
some  time  before  his  day's  work  begins? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir,  a  fireman  has  to  share  with  the  en' 
gineer  the  responsibility  for  the  tools.  Ordinarily,  at  the  re- 
quest  of  the  engineer,  he  looks  after  the  sand  and  the  water,  or 
any  other  duties  that  the  engineer  may  require  of  him,  in  addi- 
tion to  seeing  that  his  fire  is  in  proper  shape  for  road  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  you  said  a  while  ago  that  on  some 
of  these  roads  the  tools  were  placed  on  the  engine.  If  tools  were 
placed  on  the  engine  before  the  engine  was  to  leave  the  terminal, 
would  the  fireman  still  be  required  to  make  an  inspection  to  learn 
whether  or  not  the  tools  were  in  the  proper  place  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  The  schedules  ordinarily  provide  that,  w^hile 
the  tools  may  be  placed  on  the  engine  by  the  roundhouse  force, 
the  crew  must  be  responsible  for  the  fact  that  they  are  there. 
If  they  are  not  there,  it  is  necessary  for  the  fireman  and  en- 
gineer to  see  that  they  are  placed  on  there. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  crew  is  held  responsible  for  the  engine 
being  in  proper  condition  to  go  outf 

Mr.  Moore :  It  is  their  duty  to  see  that  everything  is  there 
ready  to  go  out. 

The  Chairman:  From  your  observation  and  experience, 
what  amount  of  time  is  required  for  this  purpose? 

Mr.  Moore:  Well,  generally  speaking,  I  would  say  not 
less  than  thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Byram:  These  17  roads  that  pay  jjreparatory  time, 
do  they  pay  it  in  the  same  way  that  it  is  allow^ed  by  the  proposed 
Article  5,  or  is  it  restricted  to  a  certain  amount,  generally? 

Mr.  Moore :  No,  sir,  there  are  only  four  roads  which  pay 
it  as  an  arbitrary  allowance.  On  the  other  roads  it  is  computed 
in  the  day's  work. 

Mr.  Byram:  Is  it  limited  as  to  the  amount,  generally 
speaking,  in  these  rules ;  or  is  it  unlimited,  as  proposed  in  the 
new  ones  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  am  of  the  opinion  that  some  roads  provide 
thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Byram :  Do  you  think  many  of  them  do,  or  just  one  or 
two  ?  There  are  seventeen  altogether  that  pay  it.  How  many  of 
them  allow  it  in  a  restricted  wav — limit  it  to  thirty  minutes  ? 


126 

Mr.  Moore:     I  am  not  prepared  to  state  tlie  exact  number. 

Mr.  Byram:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Pliillii)s:  But  you  have  all  of  the  rules  here  so  tliat 
it  might  be  checked  in  a  few  minutes  by  reading  the  rules  and 
making  that  check  f 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Page  249  is  the  next  article,  I  believe.  Ar- 
ticle 6,  Terminal  Delay.  How  many  roads  pay  for  initial  term- 
inal delay  in  passenger  service,  according  to  your  check  of  the 
schedules  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  39  roads  that  pay  for  initial  term- 
inal delay  in  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :     How  many  pay  for  final  terminal  delay  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  find,  according  to  the  schedules,  there  are 
34  roads  which  pay  for  final  terminal  delay,  in  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Thirty-four  pay  for  final  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  How  many  roads  pay  for  initial  terminal 
delay,  in  freight  service? 

Mr.  Moore :  The  schedules  show^  there  are  43  roads  paying 
for  initial  terminal  delay  in  freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  how  many  for  final  terminal  delay  in 
freight  service? 

Mr.  Moore:     Thirty-three. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Forty-three  pay  for  initial  terminal  delay 
and  33  pay  for  final  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  the  rules  clearly  indicate  whether  this 
compensation  for  terminal  delay,  either  initial  or  final,  is  an 
arbitrary  allowance  or,  whether  it  is  computed  as  a  part  of 
their  day's  pay? 

Mr.  Moore:  On  some  roads  it  is  impossible  for  me  to  de- 
termine wliether  it  is  an  arbitrary  allowance  or  not.  There  are 
twelve  roads,  however,  wliich  particularly  specify  that  the  pay- 
ment is  made  for  terminal  delay,  in  addition  to  other  time  or 
mileage  made. 

Mr.  Pliillips :  Do  the  rules  provide,  on  any  of  these  roads 
that  engineers  and  firemen  will  be  paid  for  these  delays  on 
a  minute  basis?  Pardon  me  a  moment,  I  speak  of  engineers 
and  firemen.     I  would  like  to  explain  to  the  Board  that,  as  a 


127 

rule,  these  provisions  are  identical,  althougli  the  schedules  are 
separate, — if  they  are  not  identical,  they  are  very  similar,  and 
it  would  be  almost  safe  to  say  that  in  every  instance,  they  apply 
alike  to  engineers  and  firemen,  I  will  modify  my  question  to 
that  extent.  Are  firemen  paid  for  these  delays  on  a  minute 
basis  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  The  schedules  show  there  are  seven  roads  on 
which  pay  is  made  for  terminal  delay  on  the  minute  basis. 
However,  these  roads  have  different  ways  of  computing  the 
time.  Some  roads  distinctly  specify  it  shall  be  for  the  actual 
number  of  minutes  delayed ;  other  roads,  less  than  five  minutes 
not  counted;  on  still  other  roads,  there  is  a  clause  specifying 
less  than  fifteen  minutes  will  not  be  counted. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  let  us  turn  to  page  265,  Article  7,  Auto- 
matic Eelease  and  Tie-Up.  I  was  pleased,  if  the  Board  will 
indulge  me  a  moment,  with  the  fear  of  one  of  the  members  as 
to  the  meaning  of  the  term  "Automatic".  Possibly,  he  did 
not  learn  his  lessons  around  a  switchman's  shanty  like  a  lot 
of  the  rest  of  us  did.  "Automatic"  is  a  term  not  necessarily 
used  as  possibly  Webster  or  the  Standard  Dictionary  would 
define  the  term,  but,  in  general  railroad  service,  I  believe  these 
rules  will  clearly  show  that  a  man,  either  a  fireman  or  an  engi- 
neer, completing  a  day's  work,  is  released  and  his  pay  is^com- 
puted  for  that  trip  and,  if  again  called  he  begins  another  day  or 
another  trip.  I  think  the  term  "automatic  release",  possibly 
should  be  "pneumatic  release".  I  think  it  originated  with  some 
timekeeper.  I  do  not  think  it  can  be  charged  up  to  the  firemen, 
at  least,  or  to  the  engineers ;  but  the  practice,  it  has  been  under- 
stood, is  very  general,  not  only  on  Western  railroads  but 
throughout  the  entire  United  States  and  Canada. 

Mr.  Park :  With  you  permission,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  want  to 
correct  Mr.  Phillips,  first  on  the  proposition  that  I  have  not 
been  around  a  switch  shantv.  I  have  been  there  for  forty  vears, 
and  it  is  a  new  word.  "Automatic"  is  a  new  word  to  me.  1 
had  this  fear: — it  is  so  near  "autonomy"  or  self-government, 
that  it  might  refer  to  discipline,  and  that  the  engineer  or  fire- 
man is  going  to  leave  his  engine  before  he  was  permitted  to 
leave  it,  as  heretofore,  and  would  not  be  available  for  further 
duty,  under  certain  circumstances.  Mr.  Burgess  set  me  right 
in  that,  that  it  is  not  intended  to  change  the  present  conditions 


128 

in  any  way  here,  but,  i  still  cannot  see  the  use  of  the  word 
"automatic". 

Mr.  PhilUps :  If  I  may  be  permitted  to  speak  of  engineers, 
for  a  moment,  they  have  a  little  ajoplianee,  always  handled  with 
their  left  hand.  That  does  things  automatically  sometimes,  and 
sometimes  in  other  ways.  The  term  "automatic",  among  rail- 
road men,  usually  applies  to  the  automatic  air  brake.  That  is 
the  general  use  of  the  term  "automatic".  We  think  of  it  in 
connection  with  the  air  brake  more  than  anything  else. 

Mr.  Park:     Mechanical. 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  is  mechanical  and,  while  I  am  not  a  lin- 
guist, I  fancy  Mr.  Webster  would  define  it  as  self-acting,  or 
something  like  that.  I  am  sure  it  is  not  here  intended  for  the 
purpose  you  fear.  It  was  entirely  proi)er  to  bring  it  out;  no 
exception  taken  to  that.  (Addressing  the  witness)  Have  any 
roads  a  rule  like  this  in  their  schedules  ?  Pardon  me  a  moment, 
if  I  may  interrupt,  let  me  ask  the  question  in  another  way :  This 
is  not  an  automatic  rule ;  it  is  a  tie-up  rule,  which  may  require  a 
little  exertion.  liave  you  produced  all  of  the  tie-up  and  re- 
lease rules  from  the  schedules  of  the  different  roads,  parties  to 
this  arbitration  ? 

Yes,  sir. 

:     How  many  roads  have  rules  of  this  char- 


Mr. 

Moore : 

Mr. 

Phillips 

acter? 

Mr. 

Moore : 

The  schedules  show  there  are  52  roads  hav- 
ing release  rules  and  tie-up  rules. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  any  of  the  roads  use  the  term  "auto- 
matic?" 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  two  roads  which  use  that  term,  the 
Great  Northern  and  the  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  I  understood  you  to  say  you  had 
never  worked  in  that  part  of  the  country. 

Mr.  Moore :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillij^s:  Then  you  would  not  be  prepared  to  state 
whether  or  not  engineers  and  firemen  were  relieved  in  any  dif- 
ferent manner  on  that  road  than  they  were  on  the  Chicago,  Mil- 
waukee &  St.  Paul  or  the  Chicago  &  North  Western,  where  the 
w^ord  "automatic"  is  not  included  in  their  schedule? 

Mr.  Moore :     No,  sir,  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Phillips:    The  purpose  of  the  rule,  I  trust,  is  made 


129 


clear.    It  is  in  order  that  it  may  end  a  day  or  the  trip,  and  that 
compensation  will  be  based  upon  that  service. 

Tlie  Chairman :  I  do  not  think  we  shall  have  any  trouble 
about  that  point. 

Mr.  Phillips  :     I  wanted  to  relieve  Mr.  Park's  mind. 

Mr.  Park :     Oh,  I  understand  what  it  means. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Turn,  now,  please,  to  page  281,  Article  8. 
''Held  away  from  Home  Terminals."  How  many  roads  in  this 
arbitration  have  rules  granting  pay  to  firemen  for  time  held 
away  from  home  terminals? 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  24  roads  which  grant  pay  to  fire- 
men for  being  held  away  from  home  terminals.  Most  of  these 
rules,  however,  cover  the  messengering  of  dead  engines  and 
trains!  That  is,  handling  the  dead  engines,  being  taken  from  one 
terminal  to  another  in  trains  without  steam! 

Mr.  Phillips:     How  many  roads,  did  you  say? 
24  roads. 
Are  the  rules  in  the  schedules  of  these  roads 


Mr.  Moore: 
Mr.  Phillips 
uniform  ? 

Mr.  Moore: 
Mr.  Phillips 


No,  sir;  they  vary. 
Do  any  of  the  roads  have  a  rule  like  the  rule 
here  proposed.  Article  8,  or  similar? 

Mr.  Moore :  At  the  bottom  of  page  281  will  be  found  a  rule 
somewhat  similar.  The  Canadian  Northern  provides  pay  after 
the  expiration  of  18  hours. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  The  rule  proposed  to  arbitration  is  different 
in  what  respect? 

Mr.  Moore: 
of  18  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean: 
too,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Moore: 

Mr.  Sheean: 
over? 


In  one  respect;  it  specifies  15  hours  in  place 

It  pays  nine  in  24,  instead  of  continuous  time 

Beg  pardon? 
It  pays  9  hours  pay  for  every  24  hours  held 

Yes,  sir. 
While  the  proposed  one  would  pay  continu- 


Mr.  Moore: 

Mr.  Phillips 
ous  time? 

Mr.  Moore: 

Mr.  Phillips 
firemen  acting  as  messengers  on  dead  engines ;  do  you  mean  an 


That  is  another  difference,  yes,  sir. 
These  rules  you  refer  to   as 


referring  to 


130 

engine  not  under  steam,  being  towed  in  a  train  from  one  point 
to  another? 

Mr.  Moore :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  And  a  man  in  charge — a  fireman,  for  exam- 
ple,— wouhl  be  paid  for  his  service  as  a  messenger  or  as  the  man 
in  charge  of  this  engine  and,  then,  if  the  engine  were  delivered 
at  the  point  to  which  it  was  going  or  as  far  as  the  fireman  in 
charge  was  ordered  to  take  it,  he  would  be  paid  for  time  held  at 
that  point,  or  if  held  at  that  point  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  sir.  The  specifications  however,  differ 
on  different  railroads. 

Mr.  Pliillips  :     Rules  are  very  variant? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Turn  next  to  page  288,  Article  9.  ''Dead- 
heading. ' '  How  many  western  roads  parties  to  this  movement 
have  rules  covering  deadhead  service  for  firemen? 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  53  roads  having  rules  covering 
deadhead  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  any  of  them  similar  to  the  rule  here 
proposed? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  fail  to  find  a  rule  that  is  exactly  the  same  as 
the  one  proposed. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Well,  not  exactly  the  same,  Mr.  Moore,  but 
they  i^rovide  a  rate  of  pay  for  engineers  and  firemen  when  dead- 
heading on  company  business,  or  when  under  orders,  as  proposed 
by  this  rule. 

Mr.  Moore :  I  do  not  believe  there  is  a  rule  in  the  firemen's 
schedule  of  western  railroads  providing  a  through  freight  pay 
for  firemen  deadheading. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Have  you  produced  the  rules  here? 

Mr.  Moore :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Would  that  refer  to  a  fireman  deadheading 
in  both  passenger  service  and  freight  service,  provided  he  was 
deadlieaded  on  a  freight  train  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  understand  they  are  both  covered  in  the  rule, 
yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Pliillii^s:  I  understood  you  to  say  that  you  did  not 
Imow  of  a  rule  providing  that  a  fireman  should  be  paid  a  through 
freight  rate  of  pay  for  deadheading.    Do  you  know  whether  or 


131 

not  that  would  apply  to  a  fireman  deadheading  on  a  freight  train 
on  all  of  the  railroads! 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  a  few  roads  in  which  the  schedule 
provides  for  deadheading  in  passenger  service  on  a  passenger 
train  or  on  a  freight  train,  but,  ordinarily,  they  are  deadheaded 
on  a  passenger  train,  and  the  rate  of  i)ay  covers  that  particular 
deadheaded  service.  I  am  not  prepared  to  state  how  many  roads 
have  rules  dividing  deadheading  as  between  passenger  and 
freight  service,  however. 

Mr.  Philli]3S:  You  have  not  made  a  check  for  that  pur- 
pose? 

Mr.  Moore:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  deadheading,  from  your  personal  exper- 
ience— if  you  have  not  had  experience  you  may  so  state — but, 
from  your  personal  experience  as  a  railroad  man,  that  is,  as 
an  engineer  or  fireman,  is  deadheading  quite  a  common  service? 

Mr.  Moore:  At  certain  periods  of  the  year  it  is.  When 
business  is  good  it  is  ordinarily  more  common  than  during  slack 
business. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  fluctuations  of  business  would  have  an 
effect  on  the  number  of  men  deadheaded? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  do  not  suppose  you  know  what  proportion 
of  men  are  deadheaded,  or  what  proportion  of  the  firemen's 
wages  are  earned  in  deadheading? 

Mr.  Moore:  It  is  a  very  small  portion. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Turn  next  to  page  300:  ''Article  X.  Host- 
lers." If  the  Board  please,  I  think  we  have  reached  about  the 
point  where  we  concluded  yesterday.  I  do  not  think  Article  X 
has  been  read  into  the  record.  I  ask  that  it  be  copied  into  the 
record  to  save  me  from  reading  it. 

The  Chairman :  It  will  be  handed  to  the  stenographer  and 
made  a  part  of  the  record. 

Article  X  is  as  follows: 

"Hostlers :  At  points  where  an  average  of  six  or  more  loco- 
motives are  handled  within  twelve  hours,  day  or  night,  hostlers 
shall  be  maintained. 

''Positions,  hotv  filled:  Hostling  positions  shall  be  filled 
from  the  ranks  of  the  Firemen,  and  they  shall  be  paid  $3.35  per 


132 

(lay  of  ten  hours  or  less ;  provided,  that  where  Hostlers  are  re- 
quired to  make  uiain-line  movements,  they  shall  be  paid  $4.75 
per  day  of  ten  hours  or  less,  overtime  in  each  case  to  be  computed 
on  the  minute  basis  and  paid  for  at  the  rate  of  time  and  one- 
half. 

"AYhen  such  main-line  or  road  Hostlers  are  paid  the  same 
rate  as  Elngineers  in  switcliiug  service,  such  positions  shall  be 
filled  from  the  ranks  of  the  Engineers. 

''Meal  Hour. — Hostlers  shall  be  allowed  one  hour  for  meals 
between  the  hours  of  11:30  and  1:30,  day  or  night.  Hostlers 
will  be  assigned  regular  meal  hour  between  the  hours  named  or 
after  being  on  duty  five  hours.  Should  hostlers  be  required  to 
remain  on  duty  after  designated  meal  hour,  one  hour  will  be 
allowed  as  overtime.  No  hostler  will  be  required  to  remain  on 
duty  longer  than  six  hours  without  having  one  full  hour  for 
meals." 

Mr.  Phillips:  This  article  pertains  to  hostlers.  Do  you 
Imow  what  a  hostler  is? 

Mr.  Moore :  Usually  speaking  he  is  a  man  who  handles  an 
engine  around  the  roundhouse,  or  handles  light  engines  from 
the  roundhouse  to  the  points  where  they  are  placed  on  trains, 
or  from  the  point  of  their  arrival  to  the  roundhouse. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  the  experience  and  training  of  a  fire- 
man qualify  him  to  act  as  a  hostler? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes.  He  gains  the  necessary  experience  by 
reason  of  his  association  with  the  engineer,  and  by  reason  of  his 
work  on  the  engine  in  the  cajoacity  of  fireman. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Would  you  also  understand  that  engineers 
would  be  qualified  to  act  as  hostlers? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  hostlers  taken  from  the  ranks  of  fire- 
men frequently? 

Mr.  Moore :     They  are,  on  quite  a  number  of  roads. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  you  prepared  a  list,  and  are  you  pre- 
pared to  state  on  what  number  of  roads  the  hostlers  are  taken 
from  the  ranks  of  the  firemen? 

Mr.  Moore:  The  schedules  show  that  there  are  18  roads 
on  which  hostlers  are  taken  exclusively  from  the  ranks  of  the 
firemen,  and  there  are  12  additional  roads  where  the  hostlers 
are  taken  from  the  ranks  of  the  engineers  and  firemen. 


133 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  the  rules  of  the  roads  having  schedules 
providing  rates  of  pay  or  fixing  the  conditions  of  service  of 
hostlers,  reproduced  here  in  the  same  manner  as  they  have 
been  for  firemen? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes.  That  is,  the  rules  that  are  contained  in 
the  firemen's  schedules  are  reproduced  here,  but  not  the  rules 
that  are  contained  in  the  engineers'  schedules. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  understood  you  to  say  before  that  you 
have  compiled  here  only  the  rules  pertaining  to  the  firemen  and 
hostlers  when  made  by  the  committee  of  the  Brotherhood  of 
Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And,  if  they  were  made  by  the  committees 
of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers,  even  though  they 
might  apply  to  firemen,  or  to  whoever  might  be  engaged  as 
hostlers,  they  would  not  be  included  in  this  compilation? 

Mr.  Moore:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  say  that  the  rules  on  12  roads  provide 
that  hostlers  are  taken  from  either  engineers  or  firemen? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  the  rules  on  any  of  these  roads  indicate 
that  hostlers  are  paid  engineers'  pay  when  required  to  handle 
trains  on  main  tracks,  or  do  switching  of  cars? 

Mr.  Moore :  Not  in  that  exact  lang-uage,  but  there  are  two 
roads  on  which  hostlers  are  allowed  40  cents  per  hour  for  mak- 
ing main  line  movements,  and  there  is  one  road  which  pays 
switch  engineers'  rates  of  pay  to  hostlers  for  handling  and 
switching  cars. 

Mr.  Phillips :     What  road  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  The  Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf,  and  the  Mis- 
souri-Pacific-Iron Mountain  allow  40  cents  an  hour  for  hostlers 
for  main  line  movements,  and  the  Texas  &  Pacific  allows  switch 
engineers'  rates  of  pay  for  switching  and  handling  cars. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  the  rules  on  any  of  these  roads  provide 
a  meal  hour  for  hostlers? 

Mr.  Moore:  The  schedules  show  that  there  are  11  roads 
providing  a  meal  hour  for  hostlers,  on  three  of  which  overtime 
is  allowed  if  the  meal  hour  is  worked. 

Mr.  Phillips :  How  many  of  these  roads  have  a  ten  hour 
day  for  hostlers  ? 


134 

Mr.  Moore:  One  road  has  a  ten  hour  (hiv  for  hostlers — 
the  Terminal  Hailroad  Association  of  St.  Louis. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But  one  road  in  the  movement  has  a  ten 
hour  day  for  hostlers  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Please  turn  to  page  314. 

Mr.  Byram:  May  I  ask  you  a  question  before  you  leave 
that? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Certainly. 

Mr.  Byram:  I  did  not  hear  the  witness  testify  as  to 
whether  any  of  those  roads  had  a  provision  similar  to  the  first 
paraii-ra])li  of  Article  X,  specifying  the  number  of  engines  that 
should  be  handled  at  a  place  where  hostlers  are  maintained. 

Mr.  Moore :  So  far  as  I  know,  there  is  onlv  one  road  which 
has  a  rule  at  all  similar  to  this,  and  that  is  the  Missouri,  Kan- 
sas <S:  Texas,  which  provides  that  hostlers  shall  not  be  assigned 
unless  there  are  eight  or  more  engines  to  be  handled  during 
the  service  trick. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  the  M.  K.  &  T.f 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes.  That  is  on  page  307.  That  particular 
rule  reads: 

''At  points  where  an  average  of  eight  or  more  engines  are 
handled  within  twelve  hours,  day  or  night,  hostlers  will  be  as- 
signed. At  other  points  where  mechanical  skill  is  not  essential 
in  the  selection  of  foremen,  hostlers  may  be  selected  for  these 
positions" 

Mr.  Phillips :  Please  turn  to  page  314,  Mr.  Moore,  Article 
XL  If  the  Board  please,  will  it  be  necessary,  in  each  instance, 
for  me  to  have  it  stated  that  the  article  be  read  into  the  record. 

Mr.  Nagel:     It  is  already  in  the  record,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Pliilli]is :  If  the  Board  please,  at  the  beginning  of  the 
examination  of  our  witnesses  yesterday,  in  addition  to  the  formal 
articles  submitted  to  arbitration,  which  I  believe  appear  in  the 
printed  record,  the  representative  of  the  employes  read  each 
article,  or  it  was  agreed,  I  think,  that  it  would  be  copied  into 
the  record.  The  Chairman  has  just  stated  that  that  course 
would  be  followed.  I  wish  to  know  if  it  will  be  necessary  for  me 
to  refer  to  that  when  I  come  to  each  article. 


135 

The  Chairman.:  ■  J  do  not  think  so,  and  that  course  will  be 
followed. 

Arti^j^Jpk;  XI  is- as  follows : 

•  '■''^■'^S^prise-'T^sts.  That  the  practice  of  conducting  surprise 
testi^^yy  tening  switch  lights  and  placing  red  lights,  or  flags, 
unaccompanied  by  torpedoes,  beside  track,  or  wiring  down  auto- 
tii^^i^  signals  to  proceed  position,  he  eliminated." 

,,  <q,|^j^,^lA'Phillips  :  Article  XI  refers  to  surprise  tests  and  is, .in 
th^,  na-tee  of  a  protest  against  a  practice  which  engineers  and 
fii'enTj^i^Jtiave  found  by  experience  to  be  extremely  dangerous. 
The  very  lang-uage  of  the  article  before  your  Honorable  Board 
indicates  that  it  is  a  request,  beginning  as  it  does  with  the  words 
''That  the  practice  of  conducting  surprise  tests,"  etc,  ''be 
eliminated. ' '  My  reason  for  stating  that  this  has  been  found  to 
be  extremely  dangerous,  by  actual  experience  of  engineers  and 
firemen,  is  that,  in  my  own  limited  experience  as  a  railroad 
engine  employe  and,  I  feel  justified  in  sa^^ing,  in  the  experience 
of  every  man  within  this  room  who  has  followed  such  a  vocation, 
he  knows  of  others  if  he  has  not  personally  experienced  the  sur- 
prise of  seeing  red  lights  before  him,  whose  first  impulse  was 
to  jump  off,  no  matter  how  fast  they  were  going  and,  unfor- 
innately,  some  of  them  have  done  that.  i  !.,.^..r. 

We  do  not  believe  that  any  such  practice  is  necessary  in 
.conducting  railroads.  I  believe  we  are  all  believers  in  ' '  Safety 
first. "  If  we  do  not  belong  to  the  societv  we  are  followers  and 
believers  in  the  faith.  But,  no  man  whose  life  depends  upon 
some  sudden,  unexpected  signal  of  danger,  wants  to  meet  it, 
except  at  a  time  when  it  is  absolutely  a  danger  signal.  It  is  just 
like  the  old  cry  of  "Wolf!"  after  you  have  heard  it  a  time  or 
two,  if  you  have  lived  through  it,  it  may  not  be  so  effective ;  so 
we,  who  have  had  experience,  really  doubt  the  wisdom  of  con- 
ducting such  a  test. 

But,  if  I  may  interject  a  personal  impression,  I  am  con- 
vinced that  it  is  the  fear  for  the  safety  of  these  men  that  leads 
to  this  request  for  the  abolition  of  any  such  practice. 

In  the  schedules  of  rules  for  firemen,  Mr.  Moore,  have  you 
found  anything  pertaining  to  this  subject? 

Mr.  Moore:     No.  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :     There  is  not  a  rule  in  any  schedule  covering 


136 

the  service  of  locomotive  firemen  on  the  railroads,  parties  to  this 
arbitration! 

Mr.  Moore :     I  have  been  unable  to  find  such  a  rule. 

Mr.  Park:  Would  it  properly  be  a  rule  in  the  schedule? 
Would  it  not  be  a  regulation  of  the  railroad,  regulating  its 
efficiency  f 

Mr.  Phillips :  In  answer  to  that  question,  if  the  Board 
please,  I  feel  I  may  say  that  there  are  many  of  these  things 
which  we  would  prefer  to  settle  with  the  gentlemen  who  guide 
the  destinies  of  the  railroads.  If  this  plan  had  not  been  tried 
and  tried,  again  and  again,  by  individuals  and  by  committees 
representing  the  employes  on  large  systems  as  well  as  small 
systems,  or  by  the  representatives  of  a  number  of  railroads, 
acting  collectively,  I  doubt  if  the  proposition  would  be  before 
you  gentlemen  today.  It  is  the  fact  that  we  cannot  settle  these 
things  by  tlie  usual  methods,  that  necessitates  bringing  them 
before  a  tribunal  of  this  kind,  and  we  hope  you  gentlemen  will 
consider  it  in  that  light.  We  are  glad  to  have  men  on  this  board 
who  are  practical,  broad  minded,  experienced  railroad  managers, 
I  may  say,  not  using  that  in  the  official  sense,  but  men  who  do 
really  manage  the  affairs  of  these  railroads,  and  we  believe  this 
can  be  settled  here.  That  is  why  we  bring  it  here.  We  think  it 
should  be  settled  universally,  and  we  want  to  co-operate  to  bring 
about  the  greatest  degree  of  efficiency  and  the  highest  possible 
conditions  of  safety.  That  is  our  reason,  I  am  sure,  for  including 
a  proposition  which  to  me  seems  a  request,  and  which  I  feel  is 
one  of  the  important  things  that  your  Honorable  Body  has  to 
deal  with. 

Mr.  Park :  Mr.  Phillips,  if  it  were  shown  that  the  efficiency 
tests  limited  accidents  and  greatly  reduced  them,  and  greatly 
reduced  the  personal  injuries  and  fatalities  not  only  to  employes 
but  to  passengers,  do  you  agree  that,  in  that  case,  they  should 
be  continued? 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  think  there  w^ould  be  no  disposition  on  the 
part  of  the  engineers  and  firemen  to  object  to  any  reasonable 
test.  I  would  call  the  attention  of  the  Board  to  the  language  of 
this,  which  designates  ** Surprise  Tests."  It  is  that  particular 
kind  of  test  to  which  exception  is  taken  or  objection  made. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Can  it  be  a  test  unless  it  operates  as  a  sur- 
prise? 


137 

Mr.  Phillips:  Yes,  indeed.  If  I  may  digress,  or  present 
the  subject  from  another  angle,  the  books  of  rules  of  these 
various  companies,  which  are  in  a  general  way  standard,  but 
which  have  local  deviations,  provided  most  rigid  regulations  for 
the  operation  of  trains  and  the  handling  of  railway  traffic.  No 
man  objects  to  any  kind  of  a  test  under  the  rules ;  but,  the  rules 
do  not  provide  that  a  freight  train  will  stand  out  on  a  main 
track  with  the  tail  lights  all  showing  red,  and  no  flagman  out. 
Those  are  the  things  to  which  engineers  and  firemen  object,  and 
the  books  of  rules  do  not  provide  that  switch  lights  shall  be  set 
at  red  when  the  switch  is  lined  up  for  the  main  track ;  and,  if  I 
may  presume  enough  to  assume  that  the  two  gentlemen  who  are 
the  neutrals  here, — if  I  may  use  such  a  term  in  this  proceeding, 
and,  by  the  way,  this  is  a  good  time  to  be  a  neutral — may  not 
understand  the  fear  that  flashes  through  the  mind  of  an  engineer 
and  fireman  at  the  sight  of  a  red  switch  light  just  ahead  of  them, 
with  the  train  running  even  at  a  moderate  speed,  thirty  or  forty 
miles  an  hour.  We  who  have  been  there  know  that  it  is  nearly 
certain  to  turn  the  engine  over,  if  it  takes  the  switch  going  at 
that  speed.  The  books  of  rules  provide  for  no  such  emergency. 
Those  things  mean  accidents,  and  accidents  sometimes  mean 
serious  injury. 

Mr.  Park:  The  rules  provide  that  the  absence  of  a  signal 
in  a  localitv  where  one  is  usuallv  shown  would  be  considered  a 
danger  signal,  and,  if  a  switch  should  be  open,  the  engineer 
must  certainly  use  his  emergency  and  stop  his  train. 

Mr;  Phillips :  I  am  sure  he  would  do  so,  and  he  might  take 
what  you  would  understand,  perhaps—  .  .j^ixi^^, 

Mr.  Park :     But,  you  fear  he  would  jitmp  off. 

Mr.  Phillips:  He  might  do  what  perhaps  you  would 
understand  and  I  understand  and  most  of  these  gentlemen  who 
are  spectators  here  understand;  he  might,  in  switchmen's  par- 
lance, ' '  give  her  the  big  hole  and  take  the  jump  signal. ' '  That 
is  the  common  language  by  which  railroad  men  express  them- 
selves. And,  while  the  jump  signal  does  not  appear  in  the  book 
of  rules,  it  is  the  best  known  signal  to  railroad  men,  and  it  is  the 
one  they  never  want  to  be  called  upon  to  follow. 

The  Chairman:  Are  these  signals  given  when  there  is  no 
danger? 


138; 

i^Mi*.  Phillips:     Yes. 
^>?<•i.1Tll1e'  Chaimmn :     That  is  wliat  I  am  getting  at. 
--     ]\[r.  Phillips:     That  is  the  point  I  wish  to  bring  out 

Mr.  Park:  Just  as  the  army  is  drilled  in  times  of  peace,  so 
they  are  ready  to  act  in  times  of  emergency.  : 

Mr.  Phillips:  Well,  from  all  I  know  about  the  army — and 
it  is  all  I  want  to  know — I  don't  think  it  is  necessaiy  to  have 
target  practice  and  a  few  of  the  other  things  they  have  in  thie 
army,  in  drilling  railroad  men  to  l)e  efficient  and  observe  the  rulSfe 
of  safety  first. 

Mr.  Park :     Well,  I  presume  we  will  hear  evidence  on  that. 

Mr.  Phillips:  We  will  be  prepared  to  submit  evidence  on 
this  point  later. 

Mr.  Xagel :  But,  in  making  these  tests,  Mr.  Phillips,  do  you 
not  employ  the  same  signals  that  are  used  in  case  of  actual 
danger?  'n:>''  ?;  i;;~  : 

Mr.  Phillips:  Yes,  sir,  we  do.  But,  if  I  may  occupy  the 
time,  I  may  say  that  no  engineer  or  fireman  should  ever  find  a 
switch  turned  wrong  or  the  tail  lights  of  a  train  before  him,  un- 
less he  has  distance  in  which  to  stop.  He  knows  what  to  do  if 
he  has  sufficient  distance  in  which  to  bring  his  train  to  a  stop. 
It  is  just  like — you  will  pardon  the  comparison,  I  do  not  wish 
to  make  it  in  a  reflective  sense  on  railroad  officials,  but  it  is  just 
as  if  a  railroad  company  would  wash  out  a  bridge  or  a  culvert  on 
ia  sharp  curve  and  forbid  the  track  walkers  to  go  over  that  track, 
and  allow  the  engineer  to  go  there,  knowing  he  could  not  see  it 
within  a  hundred  feet,  and  then  wonder  what  he  would  do.  It  is 
absolutely  certain  he  cannot  stop,  and  everybody  knows  that  to 
hang  three  red  lights  in  front  of  a  moving  locomotive — of  course, 
they  are  hung  there  long  before  the  train  approaches,  or  some 
time  before  the  train  approaches^everybody  knows,  if  the  engi- 
neer cannot  see  that  phantom  rear  end  of  a  train,  that  he  will 
do  everything  he  can  to  stop,  but  he  cannot  possibly  stop.  That 
is  the  thing  to  which  we  object.  Now,  I  do  not  know  how  wide- 
spread it  is,  nor  how  general,  but  it  should  not  be  in  effect  at  all. 
However,  we  will  introduce  testimony  on  the  point  later. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Mr.  Phillips,  the  reading  qualifies  the  objec- 
tion inasmuch  as  it  states  that  "The  practice  of  conducting  sur- 
prise tests  by  turning  switch  lights  and  placing  red  lights  or 
flags  unaccompanied  by  torpedoes."  I  presume  that  qualifi- 
cation should- be  explained  to  the  Board. 


Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  ■  please,  I  take  it  if  or  ftranted 
that  the  rule  would  be  read  witli  g^reiat  care,  and  I  ai^isure,  wheti 
so  read,  it  will  be  given  the  conisideration  which  we  feel  in  fair- 
ness is  due.  ^^   ■  0;^:'l  iV:>^>h'idi    v.,  i.-X    .  :jvi 

Mr.  Burgess:  Pardon  me,  Mr,  Phillips.  It  coiOd  be;  as- 
sumed that  there  Avould  be  no  obection  to  thesurprise  test  if, 
when  the  switch  lights  were  turned,  there  was  an  indication 
given  to  the  engineer  by  properly  placing  torpedoes  and  a  system 
of  flagging.  ^  -    'M      .; 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  are  correct  in  your  assumption,  in  my 
opinion.  I  believe,  I  stated  that  the  engineer  and  fireman  did 
not  like  to  find  tail  lights — I  believe  I  used  the  term  in  ex- 
pressing myself — did  not  like  to  find  tail  lights  with  no  targets 
out.  Flags  and  torpedoes  have  a  similar  significance  in  rail- 
road uses  and,  if  the  warning  signal  is  in  place  and  the  railroads 
wish  to  ascertain  w^hether  or  not  that  engineer  will  observe  the 
warning  signal  if  placed  at  the  proper  distance  and  bring  his 
train  to  a  stop  before  the  point  of  danger  is  reached,  I  think, 
no  fair-minded  engineer  will  object  to  such  a  test.  It  is  a  sur- 
l^rise  test,  and  we  wish  to  emphasize  that  particular  term.  And, 
referring  once  more  to  the  army  end  of  it,  I  do  not  wish  to  be 
.considered  as  treating  the  matter  lightly,  but  our  reason  for 
objecting  to  a  test  of  that  kind  is,  that  the  army,  so  far  as  I  am 
informed,  does  no  use  live  targets.  These  targets  are  animated, 
and  we  do  not  think  they  should  be  so  used. 

Article  12,  page  315,  the  next  page.  Assistance  for  Fire- 
men. 

Article  12  is  as  follows: 

['.Assistance  for  Firemen.  On  all  locomotives  and  freight 
service  where  but  one  Fireman  is  employed,  and  on  all  locomo- 
tives in  passenger  service,  coal  will  be  kept  where  it  can  be 
reached  by  the  Firemen  from  the  deck  of  the  locomotive.  Coal 
of  the  proper  size  for  firing  purx)oses  will  be  placed  on  all 
tenders. ' ' 

Mr.  Moore,  have  any  of  the  roads,  party  to  this  arbitration, 
rules  providing  that  assistance  will  be  given  firemen  in  the  Avay 
of  getting  down  coal  between  terminals? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  there  are  three  roads  that  provide  that 
coal  shall  be  shoveled  down  in  passenger  service  between  ter- 
minals. 


•^A   •   4'  .    'A   *   ♦'/^ 


140 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  any  of  the  roads  have  rules  providing 
that  coal  shall  be  taken  (that  is,  an  additional  supply  of  coal 
placed  on  the  locomotive)  at  points  between  terminals? 

Mr.  Moore:  There  are  thirteen  roads  which  j)rovide  that 
firemen  shall  have  assistance  in  taking  coal  or  getting  coal  down 
between  terminals. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Assistance  is  given  to  firemen  to  that  extent, 
then,  you  understand,  by  the  rule? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  this  apply  to  firemen  in  both  freight 
and  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Moore:  The  rules  distinctly  specify,  on  three  rail- 
roads, that  coal  will  be  shoveled  down  for  firemen  in  passenger 
service. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  the  schedules  indicate  whether  or  not 
any  such  assistance  is  given  to  firemen  in  freight  service! 

Mr.  Moore:  I  have  been  unable  to  find  in  the  schedule 
where  a  rule  is  given  for  assistance  to  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  How  many  roads  have  coal  broken  to  proper 
size  for  firing  puri)oses  before  being  placed  on  tenders  of  loco- 
motives, according  to  the  schedule  rules? 

Mr.  Moore:     i^'orty  roads. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Forty  roads  contain  rules  having  provision 
that  the  coal  will  be  broken  to  filing  size  before  being  ])laced 
on  the  locomotive? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir.  '       '^ 

Mr.  Phillips :  Or  before  the  fireman  is  compelled  to  put 
it  in  the  firebox?  i 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Phillips:  Does  that  apply  to  engines  in  both  freight 
and  i)assenger  service? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  presume  so,  but  the  schedule  does  not  so 
indicate. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Turn  next  to  page  322,  Article  13.  ''Two 
Firemen. ' ' 

Article  13  is  as  follows : 

"Two  Firemen.  On  coal  burning  locomotives  weighing 
185,000  pounds  or  more  on  drivers,  w^hen  used  in  freight  service, 
two  firemen  will  be  employed". 


141 

Have  any  roads,  in  this  Western  arbitration,  such  a  rule  in 
their  schedules  as  is  here  proposed? 

Mr,  Moore:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  any  of  the  roads  provide  that  additional 
firemen  shall  be  used  or  put  on  the  engines  to  relieve  firemen? 

Mr.  Moore:  There  is  no  schedule  that  provides  that  there 
shall  be  two  firemen  on  the  engine  at  the  same  time.  The  Great 
Northern,  however,  provides  that  firemen  shall  be  relieved  at  an 
intermediate  point  on  the  run  by  another  fireman. 

Mr.  Phillips:    What  do  you  understand  by  that? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  understand  the  necessitv  for  a  rule  of  this 
character  is  that  the  service  required  by  firemen  is  such  they 
cannot  fire  an  engine  over  an  entire  division.  It  is,  therefore, 
necessary  to  relieve  them  at  an  intermediate  point  and  secure 
fresh  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  understand  that  the  train  crew  and 
the  engine  crew  run  through  from  one  terminal  point  to  an- 
other? 

Mr.  Moore :     So  far  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Phillips :     I  mean  the  engineer  and  the  train  crew? 

Mr.  Moore :     So  far  as  I  know  they  do,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  a  relief  fireman  is  provided  at  an  inter- 
mediate point? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then,  they  really  have  two  firemen  over  that 
division? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :     But  not  two  on  the  engine  at  the  same  time  ? 

Mr.  Moore :     That  is  my  understanding. 

Mr.  Phillips :     What  road  is  this,  please? 

Mr.  Moore :     That  is  the  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Phillii)s :  Have  you  included  the  rule  here,  in  your  book 
of  compilations  of  schedule  rules? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Turn  to  the  next  page  now,  Mr.  Moore.  Page 
323,  ''Cleaning  Locomotives,  Article  14". 

Article  14,  Paragraph  1,  is  as  follows : 

^^  Cleaning  of  Locomotives.  On  railroads  where  firemen  are 
required  to  clean  locomotives,  they  shall  be  relieved  of  such 
service". 


142 

On  how  many  roads,  parties  to  this  arbitration,  are  firemen 
required  to  clean  engines,  all  or  any  part?  ''^-^ 

Mr.  Moore:  There  are  eight  roads  on  which  these  sched- 
tiles  either  have  no  rule  relieving  firemen  of  cleaning  engiwes  or 
have  rules  partially  relieving  firemen  of  cleaning  engirie^V'-'-J""' 
'^*'*Mr.  Phillips:  How  many  roads  have  rules  by  which^  fire- 
men are  fully  relieved  of  cleaning  engines?  --''-'^' 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  fifty  roads  on  which  firemen  are  re- 
lieved of  all  cleaning  of  engines. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  you  say  that  of  the  eight  roads  having  no 
such  rule  some  have  no  rule  at  all. 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  How  many  of  them  have  no  rule  at  all  in  their 
schedules? 

Mr.  j\roore :  The  Bellingham  &  Northern ;  the  Gulf  &  Inter- 
state; the  Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf;  the  Oregon  Short  Line, 
and  the  Texas  &  Gulf  have  no  rule  in  their  schedules. 

The  Denver  &  Eio  Grande ;  the  Duluth,  South  Shore  &  At- 
lantic ;  Mineral  Kange ;  Kansas  City  Terminal,  and  Louisiana  & 
Arkansas  have  rules  which  require  firemen  to  do  more  or  less 
cleaning. 

Miv  Phillips:  Well,  on  these  roads  having  no  rule,  do  you 
know  whether  firemen  are  required  to  clean  engines? 

Mr.  Moore :     I  do  not. 
'  Mi*.  Phillips:     Are  these  rules,  relieving  firemen  from  all 
cleaning,  uniform  in  their  language? 

Mr.  Moore:  To  a  very  large  extent  they  are.  On  most 
roads,  the  rules  read,  in  effect,  "Firemen  shall  be  relieved  of 
all  cleaning  of  engines." 

Mr.  Pliilli]is:  Turn  now  to  page  330,  please.  Article  XIV. 
Setting  up  wedges.  Filling  Grease  Cups  and  Cleaning  head- 
lights. 

Article  XIV,  Paragraph  2,  is  as  follows : 

"Setting  tip  ivedges,  filling  grease  cups  and  cleaning  head- 
lights.. .Where  Engineers  and  Firemen  are  required  to  set  up 
wedges,  fill  grease  cups  or  clean  headlights,  they  shall  be  re- 
lieved of  such  service  at  all  points  where  roundhouse,  or, shop 
force,  or  an  engine  watchman  is  employed." 

Are  firemen  required  to  fill  and  care  for  headlights  on  any 
of  the  roads  parties  to  this  movement? 


us 

Mr../Moore:  On  a  majority  of  the  railroads  the  schedules 
for  firemen  have  not  referred  to  this,  particular  service.  There 
are  two  roads,- the  Great  Northern,  which  specifies  that  firemen 
shall  be  relieved  of  this  work  at  terminals,  and  the  Minneapolis, 
St.  Paul  &  Sault  Ste.  Marie,  which  specifies  that  firemen:  shall 
be  relieved  of  this  work  at  points  specified,  but  whether  or  not 
the  firemen  are  relieved  of  this  work  on  all  the  other  rOads,  I  am 
not  prepared  to  state,  and  it  distinctly  specifies  in  those  two 
schedules  where  firemen  are  relieved  of  this  work. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  there  anything  in  the  rules  indicating  that 
firemen  are  required  to  fill  grease  cupsi  ,, 

Mr.  Moore :  No,  sir.  I  have  been  unable  to  find  a  rule  that 
has  any  bearing  on  that  subject. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Turn  next  to  page  332.  This  article  is  also 
numbered  14.  Is  that  a  subdivision  of  the  article  appearing  on 
the  preceding  page? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir.  This  article,  as  it  appears  in  the 
proposition  submitted,  has  been  divided  into  different  subjects, 
and  the  article  listed  under  the  different  subjects. 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  how  many  roads  are  rules  found  pro- 
viding that  supplies  will  be  placed  on  engines  by  shop  force 
or  roundhouse  force  or  other  employes  besides  the  firemen? 

Article  XIV,  Paragraph  3,  is  as  follows : 

'^Placing  of  Supplies  on  Locomotives.  Where  Engineers 
and  Firemen  are  required  to  place  on  or  remove  tools  or  supplies 
from  locomotives,  fill  lubricators,  flange  oilers,  headlights,  mark- 
ers or  other  lamps,  they  shall  be  relieved  of  such  service  at  all 
points  where  roundhouse,  shop  force,  or  an  engine  watchman 
is  employed. " 

Mr.  Moore:  On  fifty  railroads  such  rules  are  found. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Practically  all  of  the  roads  in  this  move- 
ment ? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Does  that  include  all  the  trunk  lines,  the 
large  systems'? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir,  it  includes  all  large  roads, 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  the  lubricators  filled  by  the  roundhouse 
force  on  any  roads? 


144 

Mr.  Moore:  The  schedules  indicate  that,  on  six  railroads, 
the  lubricators  are  filled  by  the  roundhouse  force. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  there  a  specific  schedule  rule  so- providing 
on  those  roads? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     The  rule  is  here  reproduced! 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Turn  to  page  341,  Article  15,  Official  Record 
of  Weights  on  Drivers. 

Article  XV  is  as  follows : 

"Official  Record  of  Weights  on  Drivers.  For  the  purpose 
of  recording  weights  on  drivers,  each  railroad,  parties  to  this 
agreement,  will  permanently  post  bulletins  at  all  terminals  show- 
ing accurate  service-weights  of  all  locomotives." 

Have  any  of  the  firemen's  schedules  rules  providing  that 
the  official  weights  of  locomotives  on  drivers  will  be  posted  and 
made  known? 

Mr.  Moore :     No,  sir,  no  rule  of  that  character. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  request  made  herein,  outlined  specific- 
ally in  Article  2,  I  believe,  that  rates  of  pay  for  engineers  and 
firemen  should  be  based  upon  weights  upon  drivers,  would  such 
a  rule  be  necessary,  in  your  judgment? 

Mr.  Moore :     I  would  think  so,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  next  page,  please,  342;  Article  16. 
Throwing  Switches  and  Flagging. 

Article  XVI  is  as  follows : 

"Throwing  Switches  and  Flagging.  Engineers  and  Fire- 
men will  not  be  required  to  throw  switches,  flag  through  blocks, 
or  fill  water  cars." 

How  many  rules  in  the  schedules  for  firemen,  on  these  west- 
ern railroads, — or  rather  in  the  schedules  for  firemen  for  these 
western  railroads, — in  how  many  are  rules  found  relieving  fire- 
men from  throwing  switches? 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  ten  roads  in  the  schedules  for  which 
are  found  rules  relieving  firemen  from  throwing  switches. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  any  of  the  roads  relieve  firemen  of  flag- 
ging through  blocks,  as  provided  in  this  proposed  rule? 

Mr.  Moore :     On  one  road,  the  Chicago  &  Alton ! 


145 

Mr.  Phillips:  On  how  many  roads  are  firemen  relieved  of 
filling  water  cars? 

Mr.  Moore :     On  one  road,  the  Kansas  City  Southern. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  water  cars,  from  your  knowledge,  not 
from  the  schedules,  used  on  very  many  railroads — I  mean  the 
auxiliary  water  car,  or  a  tank  car  in  addition  to  the  tender  of 
the  engine? 

Mr.  Moore:  From  my  personal  knowledge  I  know  they 
are  used  quite  a  bit  in  the  south,  especially  during  the  dry 
periods  of  the  year. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Article  16  is  the  last  article  of  the  submis- 
sion to  arbitration,  is  it  not? 
*  Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  turn  to  page  347.  I  understood  you 
to  say,  at  the  outset,  that  you  had  grouped  a  number  of  rules 
under  different  headings  or  captions,  for  the  purpose  of  ready 
reference  or  information  of  anyone  concerned;  is  that  correct? 

Mr,  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  these  rules  anything  to  do  with  the  ar- 
ticles submitted  to  arbitration? 

Mr.  Moore :     Nothing  whatever. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  they  rules  covering  conditions  of  service, 
or  other  matters  pertaining  to  the  work  of  locomotive  firemen 
that  are  not  contained  in  the  rules  submitted  to  arbitration? 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  sir.  I  have  taken  the  articles  of  the  sched- 
ules which  do  not  come  under  tlie  sixteen  propositions,  and 
grouped  them  under  the  remaining  divisions  as  contained  in  this 
book. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  explained  earlier,  Mr.  Moore, 
where,  from  time  to  time,  within  brackets,  may  be  seen  figures, 
as  at  the  end  of  this  first  paragraph,  "p.  20,"  and  at  the  last 
of  that  same  article,  "  p.  7  and  8 ' ' — those  refer  to  page  numbers 
of  the  schedules  from  which  these  rules  were  taken? 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Wliat  is  the  meaning  of  that  ''39"  with  a 
symbol  or  asterisk  within  parentheses,  at  the  top  of  the  page  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  That  is  a  number  which  I  used  in  designating 
the  schedule  articles  which  appear  under  this  subject,  called 
first  in  and  first  out.  The  number  will  also  appear  after  the 
other  subjects  in  the  remaining  part  of  this  book,  and  simply 


146 

indicates  that  tlie  scliedules  from  which  this  book  was  compiled, 
have  the  reproductions  appearing  under  eaCh  .of  tlte  subjects 
numbered,  witii  the  number  following  the  subject. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Has  it  any  reference  to  the  subject,  matter? 

Mr.  Moore :  Nothing  whatever.  Only  for  my  own  con- 
venience. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  please,  it  has  been  my  purpose 
to  endeavor  to  bring  out  the  fundamental  points  in  the  volume, 
as  they  apply  to  the  articles  submitted  to  arbitration. 

Now,  I  would  ask  to  inflict  ujDon  you,  if  I  may  use  the  term, 
the  knowledge  that  all  of  these  rules  are  found  herein,  and  may 
be  readily  referred  to,  and  we  hope  that  that  may  be  of  some 
assistance  to  you.    That  is  all. 

The  Chairman :     You  may  cross-examine  the  witness. 

Mr.  Sheehan :     May  I  remain  seated  ? 

The  Chairman :  If  you  prefer  to  do  so.  It  is  customary  in 
my  country  for  counsel  to  remain  seated  while  examining  the 
witnesses,  and  we  will  make  it  the  custom  here,  for  the  time 
being. 

Mr.  Sheehan:  The  use  of  these  books  will  be  a  little  more 
convenient  for  me. 

CROSS  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheehan :  Mr.  Moore,  I  understood  j^ou  to  say,  upon  di- 
rect examination,  that  there  were  fifteen  roads  having  a  five 
hour  day  in  the  western  territory.  Will  you  enumerate  what 
fifteen  roads  you  had  in  mind  in  making  that  statement? 

Mr.  Moore:  If  my  recollection  is  correct,  I  specified  that 
there  were  fifteen  roads  which  have  a  five  hour  day  or  better, 
or  twenty  mile  speed  basis  per  hour  or  better.  Those  roads,  as  I 
have  them  listed,  are  the  Denver  &  Rio  Grande;  the  El  Paso  & 
Southwestern  System ;  the  Houston  &  Texas  Central ;  the  Hous- 
ton East  &  West  Texas;  the  Illinois  Central;  the  Kansas  City 
Southern;  the  Missouri  &  North  Arkansas;  the  Missouri,  Kan- 
sas &  Texas;  the  St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco;  the  St.  Louis, 
Brownsville  &  Mexico;  the  San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass; 
Southern  Pacific,  Atlantic  System;  Southern  System,  Pacific 
System;  Wabash,   and  the  Wichita  Valley. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  Illinois  Central  schedule  is  shown  at  page 
27  of  your  tabulation.    Will  you  kindly  state  which  one  of  the 


i4r 

provisions  appearing  at  page  27  makes  that  a  five  hour  day  in 
passenger  service  ? 

'y^--  Mr.  Moore:  I  beg  your  pardon,  but  that  is  a  list  of  r'oat'ds 
Covering  those  which  have  a  five  hour  day  or  better,  or  twenty 
miles  per  hour  speed  basis  or  better.  No,  I  beg  your  pardon. 
I  have  got  the  wrong  one.  The  second  paragraph  provides 
**  Overtime  in  passenger  service  will  be  computed  on  a  basis  of 
twenty  miles  and  paid  at  the  rate  of  10  miles  per  hour. ' '  That 
is  a  speed  basis  of  twenty  miles  per  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean:  On  a  passenger  run  of  140  miles,  at  what 
time  would  overtime  begin? 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  please,  I  do  not  wish  in  any 
way  to  interfere  with  cross-examination.  I  believe,  however^ 
this  witness  has  only  qualified  so  far  as  to  vouch  for  the  accuracy 
or  the  correctness  of  these  rules,  as  they  are  reproduced  from 
the  different  schedules.  The  rule  here  is  reproduced  exactly  as 
is  appears  in  the  schedule  of  the  railroad,  and  I  doubt  if  the 
witness  is  qualified  to  answer  all  such  questions.  In  fact,  gentle- 
men, I  doubt  if  anybody  could  answer  all  such  questions.  I  am 
sure  he  can  answer  this  question.  The  reason  I  rise  at  this  time, 
is  to  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  this  witness  is  not 
qualified  to  pass  upon  the  meaning,  interpretation  or  application 
of  these  rules.  I  have  no  objection  to  his  answering  this 
question.  •  a< «  .*-i- 

Mr.  Sheean:  My  only  purpose,  if  the  Board  ple*a^eig,  was 
this  and  this  alone :  the  witness,  as  I  understood  his  testimony, 
grouped  a  certain  number  of  roads  as  having  a  five  hour  day 
basis,  or  a  rule  similar,  if  you  please,  to  the  request  here.  I 
wanted  to  ascertain  from  him  how  close  that  similarity  was  with 
these  different  rules,  or  why  he  grouped  a  certain  number  of 
roads  under  the  heading  of  a  five  hour  day,  or  twenty  mile  per 
hottr  speed  basis,  in  the  computation  of  overtime.  Of  course, 
if  Jtlie:  witness  was  called  only  for  the  purpose  of  verifying  the 
correctness  of  these  printed  rules,  and  no  attention  was  to  be 
paid  to  his  classification  as  to  how  many  roads  fall  under  the 
five  hour  day,  or  eight  hour  day,  or  any  other  day,  I  assume  I 
would  not  have  the  right  to  cross-examine.  It  was  only  upon  the 
groupings  that  he  had  made,  I  desired  to  ask  a  few  questions. 

Mr.  Phillips :  As  I  stated,  if  the  Board  j^leases,  I  have  no 
objection  to  the  witness  answering  this  question.    It  is  one  of  the 


148 

simplest  questions  that  ever  comes  before  railroad  men,  engi- 
neers or  firemen.  The  only  thing  to  which  I  wanted  to  call 
attention  was  that  this  w^itness  is  not  qualified  as  a  schedule 
expert,  or  a  man  prepared  to  interpret  either  the  schedules  or 
rules  he  has  reproduced,  or  the  articles  submitted  to  arbitration. 
He  has  compiled  the  articles  submitted  to  arbitration  into  a 
volume,  including  there  all  the  articles  from  the  various  sched- 
ules bearing  upon  the  same  subject,  for  the  purposes  of  com- 
parison. I  will  be  very  glad  to  have  the  witness  answer  this 
question,  as  I  have  said. 

The  Chairman :  Any  question  that  is  calculated  to  test  the 
extent  of  the  knowledge  of  the  witness  as  respects  any  testimony 
that  he  may  have  given,  of  course  would  be  competent.  The 
witness  may  state  the  extent  to  which  he  has  qualified  himself. 

Mr.  Moore:    "Will  you  state  the  question  again,  please! 

Mr.  ISheean:  Kather  than  go  back,  will  you  turn  to  the 
provision  in  the  Illinois  Central  schedule  to  which  you  referred — 
on  a  40  mile  passenger  run.  At  what  time  would  overtime 
begin  1 

Mr.  Moore:  Not  being  familiar  with  the  application  of 
the  rule,  I  would  say,  oifhand,  from  my  understanding  of  its 
reading,  that  overtime  would  begin  with  the  expiration  of  the 
seventh  hour. 

Mr.  Slieean:  And,  if  a  man  had  a  160  mile  passenger  run, 
at  what  time  would  the  computation  of  overtime  begin? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  would  sav,  in  the  same  manner  as  I  did 
before,  that  overtime  would  begin  with  the  expiration  of  the 
eighth  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And,  under  this  rule  all  additional  time  would 
be  paid  for  at  the  rate  of  10  miles  per  hour? 

Mr.  Moore :     That  is  my  understanding  of  the  rule,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  is  there,  Mr.  Moore,  in  any  of  the  sched- 
ules to  which  vou  have  referred  and  which  you  have  tabulated 
here,  a  rule  as  broad  as  Paragraph  1,  of  Article  1,  applying  to 
all  classes  of  passenger  service,  whether  suburban,  turnarouiul, 
branch  or  through. 

Mr.  Moore:  There  are  a  number  of  roads  which  have  a 
rule  specifying  that  five  hours  or  less- 
Mr.  Sheean  (Interrupting) :  In  all  classes  of  passenger 
ser^^ce  ? 


149 

Mr.  Moore:  (Continuing) — Will  constitute  a  day,  in  regular 
passenger  service,  and  some  of  the  schedules  have  a  separate 
rule  providing  for  irregular  or  extra  passenger  service,  and 
some  of  the  schedules  also  have  an  entirely  separate  rule  pro- 
viding for  suburban  service  and  short  turn-around  service ;  but, 
I  am  not  prepared  to  state  the  exact  number  of  schedules  which 
have  those  rules. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Can  you  tell  me  any  road  that  has  a  schedule 
provision  that  makes  no  exception  or  separate  provision  for 
branch,  turn-around  and  suburban,  and  that  does  apply  this 
paragraph  to  all  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Moore :     I  cannot  state  there  is  such  a  schedule. 
r     Mr.  Sheean :     Are  you  not  quite  sure  that  there  is  no  such 
schedule  that,  without  exception  as  to  turn-around  or  branch 
service,  makes  universally  applicable,  as  this  request  does,  this 
basis  to  all  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Moore:  Of  course,  I  have  not  made  a  study  of  this 
work  with  a  view  to  determining  just  what  each  rule  means  or 
how  it  is  applied;  but,  so  far  as  I  recollect,  in  the  work  neces- 
sary for  the  reproduction  of  these  articles  under  the  separate 
headings,  I  have  been  unable  to  find  a  rule  that  is  similar  to 
this  rule  and  applicable  to  all  classes  of  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Sheean :     This  makes  no  exception  for  suburban  ? 

Mr.  Moore :     In  the  reading  of  it,  it  does  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Or,  for  turn-around? 

Mr.  Moore:     There  is  no  exception. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Or,  for  branch  line  service? 

Mr.  Moore:    No,  sir,  not  in ihe  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Or,  for  any  series  of  short  runs ? 

Mr.  Moore :     No,  sir,  not  in  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  as  to  the  payment  of  overtime  in  that 
same  rule,  '^  overtime  in  passenger  service  will  be  computed 
and  paid  for  on  a  basis  of  20  miles  per  hour,  at  rate  for  each 
class  of  engine  used."  Have  you  found  any  schedule  in  your 
search  that  applies  that  method  of  paying  overtime  to  all  classes 
of  passenger  service,  making  no  exception  for  turn-around, 
suburban  or  branch  line  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  There  are  a  few  roads  on  which  overtime  is 
figured  on  the  basis  of  20  miles  per  hour  and  paid  for  pro  rata; 


150 

but  I  do  not  recollect  of  any  road  whidi  has  that  provision  for 
all  classes  of  passeni^er  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  when  you  spoke  of  there  being  in 
the  schedules  provisions  similar  to  these,  you  meant  that  .sched- 
ules generally  provide  for  the  basis  of  a  day's  work  for  some 
rate  of  overtime,  and  for  the  method  and  manner  of  computing 
that  overtime  ? 

■  ^  Mr.  Moore:  I  just  mentioned  the  roads  as  I  found  them  in 
the  schedules  which  had  a  five  hour  day  or  better,  or,  rather,  a 
provision  for  a  five  hour  day  or  better,  or  20  miles  per  hour  or 
better,  for  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  Mr.  Moore,  as  I  understood  you,  there 
was  no  schedule  that  you  examined  that  made  such  a  i)rovisioai 
applicable  to  all  classes  of  service,  on  any  line? 

Mr.  Moore:  Xo,  I  do  not  recall  any  schedule.  The  fact 
of  the  matter  is  I  did  not  investigate  that  point.  There  are,  as 
I  have  stated,  schedules  that  have  a  provision  for  the  payment 
of  overtime  in  passenger  service,  as  stated. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  not  applicable  to  all  of  the  passenger 
service  of  that  road? 

Mr.  Moore:     No,  sir.    I  have  stated  that,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  did  observe,  did  you  not,  Mr.  Moore,  that 
exceptions  were  made  to  cover  turn-arounds,  usually  of  a  cer- 
tain length  or  designated  or  otherwise. 

Mr.  ]Sroore:  Yes.  I  noticed  that  in  reproducing  the  arti- 
cles, but,  not  to  the  extent  that  I  could  designate  the  roads  on 
which  those  exceptions  are  made. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  did  not  mean  you  had  classified  them,  but 
you  did  find  general  recognition  of  the  principle  that  on  short 
turn-around  runs  the  schedules  of  the  different  roads  should 
make  jn-ovision  covering  that  kind  of  service. 

Mr.  Moore:  I  am  not  prepared  to  state  that  it  was  a 
general  proposition.  There  are,  however,  some  schedules  with 
exceptions;  but,  as  stated^  I  do  not  know  how  many.  I  would 
not  say  it  was  a  general  proposition. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  you  would  say  that  it  was  a  general 
proposition  that  there  were  exceptions  made  to  the  application 
of  a  rule  at  all  similar  to  the  rule  that  is  incorporated  here, 
w^ould  you  not,  or  I  guess  you  have  said  it  as  ' '  universal. 


5  ) 


151 

]\lr.  Moore:  So  far  as  I  know,  there  is  no  schedule  that  has 
a  rule  identical  with  the  one  proposed. 

Mr,  Sheean:  Mr.  Moore,  tinnini*'  to  Article  2,  at  pag-e  64, 
I  understood  yon  to  say  that  there  were  seventeen  roads  on 
whicli  the  hasis  of  pay  was  made  some  specified  Aveight  on 
drivers,  and  (jnite  a  large  nnm])er  of  the  seventeen,  I  believe, 
yon  included  because  of  the  fact  that,  on  locomotives  above  a 
weight  of  215,000  pounds,  a  certain  rate  should  be  paid.  How 
many  roads  were  included  in  that  class  in  which  the  only  refer- 
ence to  weight  on  drivers  was  a  single  reference  to  locomotives 
weighing  more  than  215,000  ])ounds  on  drivers? 

Ml.  Moore:  Well,  my  imrpose  in  jn-eparing  this  list  was  to 
show  the  roads  which  had  additional  classifications  on  whicli 
the  basis  of  pay  was  fixed  on  weight  on  drivers,  to  that  covered 
by  tlie  arbitration  award  for  firemen  in  1910.  I  believe,  how- 
ever, 1  stated  that  of  the  seventeen  roads  named,  there  were 
perhaps  four  or  five  of  them  whicli  were  on  a  cylinder  basis, 
that  is,  which  had  the  rates  of  pay  fixed  on  a  cylinder  basis  or 
some  other  Isasis  and  the  weight  on  diivers  was  given  on  the 
geneial  classificalicn  of  locomotives  in  some  ]iart  of  the 
schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Even  though  the  weight  on  drivers,  on  that 
particular  road,  may  come  within  tliis  classification,  it  would 
not  necessarily  follow  that  the  split  as  to  rates  was  the  same  in 
that  schedule  as  it  is  here. 

Mr.  Moore:  My  understanding  of  the  proposition  is  that, 
on  those  roads  where  they  have  the  weight  on  drivers  only 
in  the  classification  as  a  rate  of  pay,  the  article  in  the  schedule 
fixes  the  rates  of  pay  either  upon  a  cylinder  basis  or  u])on  some 
other  basis  rather  than  weights  on  drivers.  I  think  there  are 
foui'  or  five  roads  of  the  seventeen  that  T  mentioned  which 
ha\t'  pay  provided  in  that  manner. 

Mr,  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  ^Moore,  is  there  any  road  which 
makes  the  number  of  divisions  as  to  weights  on  drivers  which 
is  iiii'or])orated  in  this  request  and  makes  a  different  rate  of 
PM\  IjMsed  on  such  a  classification? 

Mr.  Moore:     I  do  not  believe  there  is. 

]\Ir.  Sheean :  AVliat  is  the  highest  number  of  breaks  or  lines 
of  demarcation  in  rates  on  any  road,  in  existing  schedules,  in 
which  the  rates  are  based  on  weights  on  drivers? 


152 

Mr.  Moore:  The  SoiitlitM-ii  Pacilic — Pacilie  System,  I  be- 
lieve, has  tlie  lari^'est  number  of  classilications  in  wliich  rates  of 
pay  are  lixed  n])on  weiglit  on  drivers;  bnt  the  liighest  num])er 
wliich  1  liave  listed  liere  is  eig'ht,  for  tlie  Atchison,  To])eka  iV: 
Santa  Fe — Coast  Lines.  That  is,  there  are  eight  different  rates 
of  ])ay  l)ased  on  weights  on  drivers,  provided  in  the  schedule.  1 
am  (|uite  sure,  however,  tliat  the  Southern  Pacific — Pacific  Sys- 
tem lias  a  larger  number  than  that. 

Mr.  Slieean :  Have  you  found  any  road  on  which  the  rates 
of  pay  se])arate  or  divide  at  tlie  weights  on  drivei-s  wliich  are 
indicated  in  this  schedule? 

Mr.  Moore:     I  did  not  investigate  that  feature. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  all  you  meant  as  to  Article  2,  as  to  your 
comparison,  was  that  you  found  recognition  of  the  ])rinciple  of 
weights  on  drivers  being  a  ])roper  basis  on  which  at  some  iioint 
to  make  some  division  of  rates  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  1  would  not  |)ut  it  exactly  in  that  wa.w  1  just 
simply  intended  to  re])roduce  that  i^art  of  each  schedule  which 
provides  pay  for  weight  on  drivers,  for  one  or  more  classifica- 
tions.   That  was  my  sole  purjiose. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  do  not  think  we  disagree,  Mr.  Mooi-e.  T 
mean  you  made  no  comi)arison  to  ascertain  whether  at  the  })oint 
of  2()0,()()()  pounds'  weight  on  drivers  there  was  recognition 
that  that  locomotive  should  take  a  different  rate  from  one  which 
weighed  199,000  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Moore:     No,  sir,  1  did  not  investigate  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  to  where  the  dividing  ]ioint  should  \u\  or 
what  the  division  should  he,  you  made  no  comparison? 

Mr.  Moore:     Xo,  sir,  none  whatever. 

jMr.  Sheean:  And  your  deduction  was  sim])ly  that  weight 
on  drivers  was  a  ])i'()i)er  basis  to  be  considered  in  connection 
witli  the  change  of  rates? 

Mr.  Moore:  Well,  1  cannot  say  that  T  made  any  deduction. 
The  fact  is,  I  b.-nl  notiiing  along  that  line.  I  have  just  simply 
re])roduced  the  articles  as  they  appear.  My  sole  inirpose  in  ])re- 
paring  this  exhibit  was  simply  to  grou])  under  each  of  these 
articles  the  schedule  of  rules  exactly  as  they  ai)])eai-  in  tlie  sche- 
dule.   That  was  my  sole  ]mr])ose. 

Mr.  Sheean:  T  understand  that  as  to  the  grouping:  but  T 
understood  vour  testiiiiouv  in  connection  with  that  was  that  vou 


nQ 


15 

found  a  certain  niunlier  wliieli  based  their  rates  on  weights  on 
drivers. 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  whether  that  basing  was  made  on  the 
basis  here  made,  you  did  not  consider? 

Mr.  Moore :     No,  sir,  I  did  not  investigate  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  speaking  about  the  part  of  Article  2,  which 
is  set  out  at  page  105,  I  understood  you  to  refer  to  circus  trains 
and  breaking  in  engines,  and  snow  plow  service  as  falling  under 
the  head  of  ''other  unclassiiied  service"  appearing  in  this  pro- 
posed rule.  If  you  find  specified  schedule  provisions  covering 
circus  trains,  snow  plow  service,  and  breaking  in  engines,  is 
that  still  unclassified  service? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  would  consider  it  so,  in  connection  with  this 
rule,  because  it  is  not  specified  in  this  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then,  notwithstanding  specific  schedule  pro- 
visions as  to  circus  train  or  breaking  in  engines,  it  was  intended 
that  this  rule  should  replace  all  those  specific  rules  in  the 
schedule  ? 

M.  Moore :  That  was  the  impression  I  had  w^hen  I  compiled 
this  book,  but,  whether  I  am  correct  in  that  impression  or  not, 
I  would  not  like  to  state;  but,  I  took  the  rule  and,  of  course, 
prepared  the  reproductions  in  accord  with  my  understanding  of 
the  rule,  without  being  advised  as  to  w^hat  each  rule  meant.  I 
understood  that  the  purpose  of  the  rule  was  to  provide  through 
freight  rates  pay  for  the  w^ork  specified  in  the  rule  and  in  addi- 
tion to  the  work  specified  in  the  rule,  for  other  classes  of  service 
which  were  not  specified  in  the  rule,  which  could  be  considered  in 
connection  with  the  freight  movement. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  was  just  in  connection  with  those  words 
''all  other  unclassified  service"  that  I  wanted  to  inquire  what 
might  be  your  reason  for  including  certain  classes  of  work  al- 
ready covered  by  schedule  provisions  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  am  under  the  impression  that  it  includes 
everything  not  specified  in  the  rules — circus  trains,  and  breaking 
in  engines,  and  things  of  that  character. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then,  certain  things  could  just  as  well  be 
added  to  that  enumeration  if  it  was  intended  that  thev  should 
take  other  rates,  and  not  leave  blind  what  was  covered  by  the 
general  terms  ' '  other  unclassified  service ' '  ? 


154 

Mr,  Moore:  T  find  that,  in  reiiroduciiig  the  articles  for  this 
table,  there  was  no  exact  comparison  in  the  schedules  as  to  the 
different  classes  of  service  covered.  Some  schedules  would  have 
an  article  providing  for  breaking  in  engines.  Perhaps  another 
schedule  would  not  have  that  article.  Some  schedule  would  have 
an  article  providing  for  circus  train  sei'\dce,  and  most  schedules 
did  have  an  article  of  that  kind  but  there  are  a  few  that  did  not 
have  an  article  of  that  kind  and,  from  that,  I  gained  the  im- 
pression tliat  this  rule  was  to  cover  all  of  those  lands  of  service, 
and  the  clause  "all  other  unclassified  service"  was  placed  in 
there  for  that  purpose. 

Mr.  Shoean :  Then,  in  the  detail  shown  under  that  rule,  you 
have  assembled  the  rules  which  cover  circus  trains  and  break- 
ing in  engines  f 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes.  '  ■ 

Mr.  Sheean:    And  messenger  service? 

Mr.  Moore :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  As  to  another  part  of  that  same  rule  I  was  not 
quite  clear  as  to  your  deduction.  I  think  it  was  at  page  164.  The 
rule  there  set  out  is : 

"On  all  divisions  where  grade  is  1.8  per  cent  or  over  an  in- 
crease of  10  per  cent  over  valley  rates  will  be  paid. " 

I  understood  you  to  say  you  had  found  a  similar  rule  in  the 
Great  Northern  schedule.     Was  it  the  Great  Northern? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  Great  Northern  schedule  seems  to  be  set 
out  at  page  171. 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  is  it  the  part  at  the  bottom  of  page  171 
which  you  consider  similar  to  the  provision  of  this  request  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  it  has  the  same  provision  upon  which  tho 
increased  comijensation  is  based,  1.8  per  cent. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  only  for  the  actual  distance  covered  by 
such  grades — that  is  in  the  Great  Northern  rule? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Whereas,  your  icquest  is,  on  all  divisions 
where  the  grade  is  1.8  per  cent  or  over,  this  ten  \)vv  cent  in- 
crease shall  be  paid? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 


155 

Mr.  Slieoaii :  Do  you  know,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  whether 
or  not  on  the  Great  Northern  Railway  there  is  any  place  at 
which  this  rate  is  paid,  other  than  between  the  points  named  in 
that  paragraph  at  the  bottom  of  page  171! 

Mr.  Moore :  No,  sir,  I  have  no  knowledge  of  the  applica- 
tion of  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:     You  know  nothing  al)out  that! 

Mr.  Moore :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  believe  you  said  there  were  differentials 
of  one  or  another  kind  provided  for  in  the  schedules  of  eleven 
of  these  roads.  Have  you  made  any  comparison  or  tabulation 
as  to  how  many  of  the  roads  involved  operate  in  mountain  ter- 
ritory ! 

Mr.  Moore :  No,  sir,  only  just  from  what  I  know  generally 
of  the  geographical  lay  of  the  country. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Are  there  any  roads  operating  in  moun- 
tain territory  that  do  not  make  some  ])rovision  in  keeping  with 
the  situation  on  each  particular  line,  for  taking  care  of  the 
situation  that  may  exist  on  that  particular  line? 

Mr.  Moore :     I  am  not  prepared  to  state. 

Mr.  Sheean :     In  some  cases  there  were  allowances  in  miles  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  great  majority  of  the  schedules,  however, 
have  certain  specified  runs  enumerated  in  the  schedule,  have 
they  not,  as  to  which  a  through  freight  rate  is  paid  or  a  freight 
mileage  allowance  made! 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes.  In  quite  a  number  of  rules  reproduced 
here  they  have  that  kind  of  a  provision. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Specifically  setting  out  the  points  between 
which  tlie  rates  shall  carry  or  the  allowances  shall  be  made! 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes.  There  are  some  of  the  rules  here  that 
have  that  provision. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  you  have  made  no  effort  to  ascertain 
just  what  the  facts  were  on  any  one  of  those  particular  runs, 
and  why  a  certain  particular  number  of  constructive  miles  was 
allowed  in  the  one  case,  or  whether  there  was  any  similarity  be- 
tween the  conditions  on  the  two  lines! 

Mr.  Moore :  No,  sir,  I  have  simply  reproduced  the  article, 
that  is  all. 

Mr.  Sheean  :     And  the  only  effort  to  express  in  a  geograph- 


156 

ical  relatioiisliip  the  grades  that  you  have  found  in  any  schedule 
is  this  Great  Northern  scliedule,  which  provides  for  the  applica- 
tion of  that  rate  for  the  actual  distance  covered  by  such  grades  1 

Mr.  Moore :  That  is  the  only  schedule  that  is  anything  at 
all  like  tlu^  rule  requested. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  Or  anything  which  attempts  to  state  any  per- 
centage relationship  between  a  named  grade  and  a  named  rate 
or  percentage  of  a  rate? 

Mr.  Moore:     So  far  as  I  know,  it  is  the  only  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  At  page  177,  is  the  narrow  gauge  provision. 
I  think,  however,  you  said,  as  to  the  application  of  the  other 
rules,  the  automatic  release,  tie-up,  initial  and  final  terminal 
delay,  and  all  that,  as  to  its  applicability  to  narrow  gauge — 

Mr.  Moore :  I  do  not  know  whether  it  applies  to  that 
service  or  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  to  whether  this  five  per  cent  increase 
covers  only  rates,  or  whether  all  the  other  things  were  applica- 
ble to  narrow  gauge  service,  you  know  nothing? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  made  nothing  of  the  application  of  the 
schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Are  all  the  definitions  which  you  found — 
definitions  of  local  and  way  freight — set  forth  in  the  sunmiaries 
following  page  182? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  AVhen  you  spoke  of  there  being  a  differential 
allowed  or  provided  in  schedules,  you  simply  meant  that  there 
was  some  differential,  not  a  percentage  differential? 

Mr.  Moore:  No,  sir,  quite  a  number  of  roads  have  a  25 
cent  higher  rate  of  pay  for  local  freight  service  than  for  through 
freight  service.  Some,  however,  have  a  lesser  or  smaller  differ- 
ence than  that,  and  others  a  greater  difference  than  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  believe  you  said  the  nearest  to  the  defini- 
tion which  you  proposed  was  found  in  the  schedule  of  the  Chi- 
cago &  North  Western  and  the  Chicago  Great  AVestern? 

Mr.  Moore:  Well,  I  do  not  know  as  it  is  the  nearest.  I 
read  the  rule  for  the  Chicago  Sz  North  Western  and  the  Chicago 
Great  Western  because  they  were  handy  to  the  article.  There 
are  five  other  roads,  however,  which  give  a  rule  that  I  did  not 
read  and  that  appears  in  the  text  matter  reproduced  under  this 
article. 


157 

Mr,  Slieean:  Is  there  any  one  which  gives  the  definition 
which  you  now  propose? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  tliat  gives  the 
exact  reproduction  of  the  article  we  are  requesting. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  know  of  any  road  which  defines  or 
attempts  to  define  way  freight  that  does  not  have  specifically 
stated,  in  connection  with  the  definition,  that  such  definition 
shall  not  be  construed  to  apply  to  through  freight  trains  set- 
ting out  or  picking'  up  carloads  or  handling  small  lots? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  am  under  the  impression  that  each  of  the 
definitions  given  has  a  qualifying  clause. 

Mr.  Slieean:  And  substantially  in  the  form  that  I  have 
given? 

Mr.  Moore :  Somewhat  similar  to  that,  yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Sheean:  -Well,  substantially  in  the  form  given  in  the 
definition  of  the  Chicago  &  North  Western  and  of  the  Chicago 
Great  Western  t.o  which  you  refer?  Something  similar  to  that? 
Mr.  Moore:  I  would  not  like  to  state  positively  that  that 
is  a  fact,  because  I  do  not  just  recall  the  reading  of  the  rule 
under  the  other  roads. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  connection  with  the  part  of  Article  3  which 
is  set  out  at  page  201,  Mr.  Moore,  I  think  you  said  that  you  found 
no  rule  in  this  language  in  any  schedule. 

Mr.  Moore:  I  do  not  believe  that  any  schedule  contains 
a  rule  exactly  like  the  one  requested. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Well,  is  there  any  rule  in  any  schedule  which 
even  exactly  or  remotely  resembles  the  provision  that  you  have 
in  this  request:  "Unless  cars  to  be  picked  up  are  first  out,  or 
cars  to  be  set  out  are  switched  together  at  terminals,"  extra  pay  . 
shall  be  given  therefor. 

Mr,  Moore :  That  term  is  used  in  one  or  more  of  the  sched- 
ules, but  then  I  cannot  just  tell  you  just  what  schedule  it  is.  I 
recollect,  though,  very  vividly  having  noticed  that  particular 
term  in  one  or  more  of  the  schedules — I  cannot  say  the  exact 
number. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  think  you  enumerated  as  among  the  roads 
which  made  some  allowance  for  this  kind  of  work,  the  Chicago, 
Burlington  &  Quincy,  for  instance.  Its  rule  is  set  out  at  page 
203.  Is  the  third  paragraph  of  that  rule  of  the  Chicago,  Burling- 
ton &  Quincy,  on  page  203,  the  rule  which  you  considered  a  rule 
similar  to  this  request? 


158 

Mr.  .Mooro:  Xo.  I  would  consider  the  first  paragraph  com- 
ing under  that  because  of  the  provision:  "When  way-freights 
are  annulled  and  through  freights  are  re(|uired  to  do  way  freight 
work,  such  as  unloading  freight  at  stations  and  doing  station 
switching  other  than  ])icking  up  and  setting  out  cars,  the  fireman 
will  be  paid  way  freight  rate."  That  would  provide  additional 
compensation.  The  second  paragraph,  liowever,  would  seem  to 
me — I  am  not  prei)ared  to  state  what  is  meant  there  by  full  time, 
whether  it  is  full  freight  time  or  full  way  freight.  I  do  not  know 
the  application  of  the  rule. 

Mr.  Slieean:  The  third  paragraph  specilically  j)rovides, 
however,  does  it  not,  that  all  such  work  as  that  may  be  made 
use  of  by  the  company,  in  older  to  give  an  ecpiivaleiit  for  the 
ten  hour  service  which  it  is  required  to  ))ay  for.' 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  si)-. 

Mr.  Sheeaii:  Does  this  rule  contem])late,  or  even  make  [tos- 
sible, — this  recpiest  that  is  })resented  here, — utilizing  any  of  this 
work  for  the  i)urpose  of  receiving  ten  hours'  work  for  ten  hours' 
pay  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  The  last  paragrai)li  distinctl.x"  specifies, 
"When  ordered  to  do  construction  oi-  wrecking  work  in  the 
course  of  a  trip,  full  lime  will  be  imid  by  the  Ikuu'  for  such 
work"? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Where  was  that  f 

Mr.  Moore:     The   last  paragra])li   under  the  reproduction. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Oh,  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  (^uincy  Rule? 

^\v.  Moore:  Yes,  sii*.  the  last  ])aragra])h  there  under  the 
Chicago,  Burlington  c^  (j)uincy  |)r()vides  that  "When  t)idered 
to  do  construction  or  wrecking  woi  k  in  the  course  of  a  trip,  full 
time  will  be  i)aid  by  the  hour  for  such  work." 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  xou  hap])en  to  know  what  the  wi-ecking 
rule  of  the  Burlington  Koad  is? 

!Mr.  Moore:  T  do  not  know,  exce])t  as  it  a))i)('ars  right 
here. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Or  their  work  train  rules? 

Mr.  Moore:  So  far  as  T  know,  this  is  the  onl>  work  train 
rule  they  have. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  Moore,  is  there — you  misunder- 
stood my  last  question — is  there  anything  in  this  ])art  of  Article 
3,  which  is  set  out  at  page  201,  which  eithei-  contem])lates  or 
permits  that  the  Company  shall  have  the  same  ])rivilege  which 


J59 

is  contained  in  the  Ihiid  i»ai'agia])li  of  this  Biirlin,i>toii  Rule, 
viz.:  that  wlien  work  of  this  sort,  added  to  other  woi'k,  makes 
neither  100  miles  nor  U)  lioiirs,  the  Company  shall  have  the 
rij>'ht  to  use  that  time  in  Hllinii'  out  the  10  liours  for  whieli  it 
pays? 

Mr.  Moore:  Well,  it  is  possible,  T  supi)ose,  under  this 
rule — while  I  don't  know  tlie  application  of  it — that  there  be 
no  ])ayment  for  this  time  until  after  ten  hours'  service  has  been 
rendered  on  a  trip;  but,  certainly,  in  the  event  of  a  tri]t  con- 
suming 10  hours,  or  100  miles,  they  would  be  allowed  extra 
compensation  or  be  allowed  the  through  freight  I'ate  for  the 
service  specified  here. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  but  does  not  youi"  rule  specifically 
provide  that  this  shall  be  paid  for  at  the  same  rate,  be  paid 
for  at  overtime  rates  in  addition  to  the  time  or  the  mileage 
made  on  tho  trip? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  no  matter  what  the  time  or  the  mile- 
age may  be,  this  must  in  all  cases  be  added  to  it,  must  it  not? 

Mr.  Moore :     Under  the  rule  requested. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Under  the  rule  requested? 

Mr.  Moore:     I  would  judge  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  your  overtime  rate  in  freight  service  is 
time  and  a  half,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Moore:     The  overtime  rate  requested,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  if  tJiis  request  were  granted,  for 
work  of  this  character  at  any  station,  when  done  by  a  through 
or  irregular  freight  train,  you  would  be  paying  one  and  a  half 
times  what  would  be  ]jaid  if  it  were  done  l)y  a  regular  train  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  Well,  as  to  that  1  could  not  state,  because  [ 
do  not  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  you  do  know  that  this  provides  for 
paying  it  overtime,  and  that  another  part  of  the  schedule  pro- 
vides time  and  a  half. 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  but  I  do  not  understand  the  api)lica- 
tion  of  the  request  under  an  overtime  feature  in  connection 
with  paragraph  3.  As  stated,  my  connection  with  the  prepara- 
tion of  this  work  was  simi)ly  to  produce  the  stated  articles  as 
they  appear  and,  of  course,  in  doing  so  T  took  what  1  would  in- 
fer from  the  ])lain   and  obvious  reading  of  the  rule,  any  rule 


160 

that  had  reference  to  the  particular  request  contained  in  the 
second  part  of  Article  3. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Moore,  in  the  part  of  the  request  set  out 
at  page  218,  in  your  enumeration  of  roads  now  having  a  ten 
hour  day  on  switching  service,  did  you  find  any  road  which  pays 
ten  hours  for  nine  and  a  half  hours'  service  in  existing  sched- 
ules ! 

Mr.  Moore :  Practically  all  railroads  provide  that  ten  hours 
or  loss  shall  constitute  a  day's  work. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  they  also  ])rovide  for  the  meal  hour  be- 
ing granted,  and,  if  the  full  hour  be  taken,  it  shall  be  without 
pay  when  they  are  released  at  noon? 

Mr.  Moore:  At  the  regular  specified  time? 
Mr.  Sheean:  At  the  regular  specified  time. 
Mr,  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  this  rule  says  ten  hours  from  the  time 
the  man  reports  for  work,  less  one-half  hour,  which  must  be 
allowed  him,  ten  hours'  pay  accrues. 

Mr.  Moore :  I  understand  the  rule  to  be  to  that  effect. 
Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  is  there  any  schedule  in  force  in  the  ter- 
ritory now  which  j^rovides  for  ten  hours  for  nine  and  a  half 
hours'  service,  or  which  provides — put  it  the  other  way — for 
paying  ten  hours  for  a  continuous  service,  of  which  one-half 
hour  shall  be  taken  for  the  meal  hour? 

Mr.  Moore :  There  are  two  schedules  which  are  indistinct, 
so  far  as  I  have  been  able  to  determine.  That  is,  there  are  two 
roads  which  provide  for  only  a  twenty  minute  meal  hour.  Now, 
I  don't  know  whether  that  time  is  calculated  continuously  or  not. 
T  could  not  determine  from  the  schedule.  The  B.  &  O.,  Chicago 
Terminal  and  the  Chicago  &  Western  Indiana,  have  a  rule  only 
to  provide  20  minutes  for  meals.  It  is  possible  on  these  two 
roads  the  time  may  be  computed  continuously,  but  I  could  not 
determine  that  fact  from  reading  from  the  schedules. 

]\lr.  Sheean:  But,  aside  from  those,  unless  those  make  pro- 
visions or  the  practice  under  them  does  give  that,  you  know  of 
no  practice  such  as  is  required  here  on  any  western  road  as 
shown  by  its  schedule? 

Mr.  Moore :  No,  sir,  I  do  not  know  of  a  schedule  that  pro- 
vides for  continuous  time. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Do  you  know  of  any  schedule  in  switching 
that  ])rovides  for  ]iay  for  weight  based  on  drivers  ? 


161 

I\ii-.  ^,Iooi-e:  So  far  as  I  know,  the  rates  of  pay  are  gen- 
erally fixed  for  the  class  of  yard  in  which  the  engine  is  used. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  do  you  know  of  any  schedule,  or  did 
you  tind  any  schedule  at  all  in  which  they  based  the  rates  in 
yard  service  on  the  weight  on  drivers  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  There  are  several  schedules — I  cannot  state 
just  the  exact  number — that  provide  for  a  higher  rate  of  pay 
than  is  the  usual  practice  in  a  yard,  but  I  am  unable  to  recall 
whether  that  is  based  upon  the  fact  that  the  rate  of  pay  is  on 
weights  on  drivers  or  not.  The  fact  of  the  matter  is,  I  did  not 
make  an  investigation  along  that  line. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Did  you  find  any  schedule— provision  in 
which  there  is  a  different  rate  of  pay  between  night  and  day 
crews  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  No,  sir,  there  is  no  schedule  distinguishing 
to  that  effect  for  firemen, 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  no  practice,  so  far  as  you  know,  in  this 
entire  territory? 

Mr.  Moore:     Not  for  firemen. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Or,  for  engineers?  AVell,  you  examined  only 
the  firemen's  schedules? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  At  page  246,  Mr.  Moore,  ''Preparatory 
Time,"  this  rule.  Article  5.  If  this  request  becomes  a  rule,  is 
there  any  kind  of  service,  of  either  an  engineer  or  fireman,  in 
which  a  road  by  any  kind  of  operation  could  avoid  paying  for 
ten  and  a  half  hours,  at  least,  any  time  he  goes  to  work? 

Mr.  Moore:  My  understanding  of  the  rule  would  be  that 
they  would  be  allowed  thirty  minutes  in  addition  to  the  minimum 
day  of  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that,  there  is  no  possible  way  of  operation 
in  which  the  railroads  could  escape  paying  at  least  ten  and  a  half 
hours  to  every  man  every  time  he  went  to  work? 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  if  the  Board  please,  I  do  not  wish  to 
curtail  the  cross-examination,  but  I  doubt  the  competency  of  this 
witness  to  answer  questions  of  that  character.  He  has  stated 
that  he  does  not — 

Mr.  Sheean:     Well,  is  there  any  dispute  about  that? 

Mr.  Phillips :     I  do  not  know  that  there  is. 

Mr,  Sheean :     Do  you  know  of  any  way  by  which  any  rail- 


162 

road  can  escape  ])aying  at  least  ten  and  a  half  lionrs  on  every 
(lav's  service,  toi^etlier  with  the  initial  and  tinal  terminal  delavf 

Mr.  Phillips :  1  am  perfectly  willing  to  take  the  witness 
stand,  if  counsel  for  tlie  i-ailroad  desires  to  subpoena  ine,  and 
answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  do  not  want  to  examine  about  matters  that 
are  not  in  dispute.  It  is  merely  to  determine  whether  or  not 
that  is  the  case. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Gentlemen  of  the  Commission,  we  will  intro- 
duce plenty  of  competent  witnesses  to  enable  all  of  this  informa- 
tion to  be  brought  out.  It  is  not  our  desire,  let  us  assure  you, 
to  curtail  this  cross-examination,  but,  as  has  been  stated,  this 
witness  has  made  a  compilation  for  the  purpose  of  reference. 
We  are  very  glad  that  he  shall  make  as  full  an  exi)lanation  as 
he  is  qualilied  to  make,  but  he  cannot,  I  do  not  believe,  interpret 
the  meaning  of  the  rules  in  these  schedules  or  rules  that  have 
been  submitted  to  arbitration,  and  I  doubt  if  very  many  gentle- 
men pi'esent  can,  even  the  men  who  work  under  tliein  or  the 
men  who  administer  them. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Phillips,  do  I  understand  you  to  say  that 
}()ii  will  put  some  one  on ■ 

Mr.  Phillips:     Oh,  yes,  indeed,  we  shall  have  witnesses. 

Mr.  Sheean:  To  interpret  the  meaning  of  each  of  these 
rules  ? 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Yes.  I  will  say  this:  the  deplorable  condi- 
tion in  which  Mr.  Cadle  found  himself  today  prevented  him 
from  continuing  his  testimony.  Had  he  remained  on  the  stand, 
we  hoped  he  would  cover  all  this  examination.  It  was  neces- 
sary for  us  to  substitute  this  witness  in  an  emergency,  and,  as 
I  stated,  he  is  not  prepared  to  pass  upon  the  bearing  of  these 
rill-'-- 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  entirely  satisfactory  to  me.  I  just 
wanted  a  question  or  two  to  know  why  he  grouped  certain  roads 
under  certain  headings  and,  under  the  assurance  of  the  rei)re- 
sentatives  of  the  men,  that  someone  will  be  placed  on  the  stand 
as  to  what  their  interpretation  of  a  particular  part  of  the  re- 
quest may  be,  I  won't  press  that  at  all  with  this  witness. 

On  that  preparatory  time,  though,  Mr.  Moore,  I  wanted  to 
know  the  names  of  the  two  roads  on  which  you  found  an  arbi- 
trary allowance? 


163 

Mr.  Moore:  If  my  recollection  is  correct,  I  specified  the 
four  roads. 

Mr.  Slieean:     Four  roads? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Slieean:     AVhat  were  tliey! 

Mr.  Moore :  The  Canadian  Northern ;  the  Canadian  Pa- 
cific ;  the  Dnlnth,  AVinnipeg  &  Pacific ;  the  Esquimalt  &  Nanaimo. 

Mr.  Sheean :  LXihith,  Winnipeg  &  Pacific  has  been  treated 
as  a  part  of  the  Canadian  Northern,  has  it? 

Mr.  Moore :  That  may  be  a  fact,  but  then  we  have  separate 
schedules  for  the  two  parts. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  Esquimalt  &  Nanaimo  is  i)art  of  the 
Canadian  Paci  fie,  is  it  .not  1 

Mr.  Moore :  That  may  be  so,  too,  but  we  have  separate 
schedules  for  the  two  pro]ierties,  and,  of  course,  I  have  used  the 
four  schedules. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Will  those  two  make  an  arbitrary  allowance 
of  thirty  minutes,  those  four,  whether  it  be  two  or  four? 

Mr.  Moore :  They  make  an  arbitrary  allowance  of  thirty 
minutes  ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Are  those  the  only  ones  on  which  you  found 
an  arlntrary  allowance  of  thirty  minutes,  in  addition  to  the  time 
or  miles  of  the  road? 

Mr.  Moore :     Those  are  the  only  ones  which  I  have  found. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  turning  to  i)age  333,  Mr.  Moore,  are 
those  the  same  roads  which  specifically  require  in  their  sched- 
ules, among  the  duties  of  firemen,  that  the  fireman  shall  fill 
torches  and  oil  feeders,  fill  lubricators  at  terminals,  fill  all  lamps 
and  care  for  all  lamps  other  than  headlamps,  and  blow  out  same 
on  arrival  at  terminal,  unless  otherwise  directed? 

Mr.  Moore:     Pardon  me;  what  i^age  are  you  on? 

Mr.  Sheean :  Page  333.  Strike  out  the  question.  The  same 
roads  which  provide  for  an  arbitrary  of  thirty  minutes  to  be 
added  to  the  time  or  miles  of  the  trip,  enumerate,  do  they  not, 
as  shown  at  page  333,  various  and  sundry  duties  required  of  the 
firemen  on  those  lines,  which  are  not  required  oil  any  other  lines? 

Mr.  Moore:  Some  of  the  schedules  under  Article  5.  "Pre- 
paratory Time,"  do  not  specify  what  the  requirements  of  the 
firemen  are. 

Mr.  Sheean:     No,  but  Mr.  Moore,  the  only  two  roads  or  the 


164 

only  four  roads  which  give  this  arbitrary  of  thirty  minutes,  are 
the  ones  you  have  enumerated,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Those  are  the  same  roads  which  enumerate, 
at  page  333,  a  great  many  duties  from  which  roads  generally 
have  exempted  firemen! 

Mr.  ]Moore:  Yes,  sir,  I  notice  on  page  333  that  certain 
duties  are  required  of  firemen  which  perhaps  on  some  roads 
they  are  not  required  to  perform. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  is  it  not  true  that  the  schedules  spe- 
cifically provide  that  they  shall  be  required  to  perform  these 
duties  on  nearly  all  the  other  roads? 

Mr.  ]\Ioore:  They  are  required  to  perform  some  of  these 
duties  on  a  great  many  of  the  roads.  For  instance,  there  are 
only  a  comparatively  few  roads  which  relieve  firemen  from 
filling  lubricators. 

Mr.  Sheean:  How  many  require  firemen  to  fill  torches  and 
oil  feeders — in  the  States? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  do  not  recall  any  schedule  that  as  a  rule 
relieves  firemen  of  performing  that  service.  There  may  be  a 
few  schedules,  but  very  few. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  know  of  any  practice  where  it  is  re- 
quired ? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  know  of  no  practices  on  any  railroad,  except 
the  one  from  which  I  ,come,  and,  on  that  road,  we  fill  torches 
and  we  fill  lubricators  also  and  the  oil  cans,  and  we  receive 
no  preparatory  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Did  you  do  anv  of  the  other  things  that  are 
enumerated  in  the  duties  of  firemen? 

Mr.  Moore:  We  had  to  take  in  our  flags  and  put  them  out, 
when  they  were  used. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Did  you  fill  the  lamps? 

Mr.  Moore:     We  had  electric  lights. 

Mr.  Sheean:     No  lamps  at  all  to  care  for? 

Mr.  Moore:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Any  markers? 

Mr.  Moore:  No,  sir;  usually  they  had  incandescent  lights, 
no  markers. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Never  ran  down  there  at  all  with  auytliing 
except  incandescent  markers,  while  you  were  in  service? 


165 

Mr.  Moore:  Most  of  the  States  down  in  that  i)art  of  the 
country  have  a  law  requiring  electric  headlights,  and  the  com- 
panies have  equipped  the  cabs  with  electric  lights  and  the 
markers. 

Mr.  Sheean:  At  page  322,  Mr.  Moore,  with  reference  to 
the  request  for  two  firemen,  is  there  any  provision  in  the  Great 
Northern  schedule,  as  set  forth  here,  which  is  applicable  to  any- 
thing other  than  Mallet  engines?  What  I  mean  is,  is  the  only 
provision  that  is  made  in  the  Great  Northern  schedules  one 
pertaining  to  Mallets? 

Mr.  Moore:  The  rule  provides  that  firemen  on  hand  fired 
coal  burning  Mallet  engines — and,  while  I  don't  know  the  strict 
application  of  it,  I  would  infer  that  it  a])])lies  only  to  Mallet 
en  gin  OS 

Mr.  8heean:  A¥ell,  all  that  I  meant,  Mr,  Moore,  was, 
whether  or  not  there  was  any  provision  other  than  the  one  lim- 
ited to  hand  fired  Mallets? 

Mr.  Moore :  This  is  the  only  provision  I  find  in  the  sched- 
ules. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  know  how  many  hand  fired  Mallets 
they  have  there? 

Mr.  Moore :     I  have  no  knowledge. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Hand  fired  coal  burners,  I  mean,  of  course. 
When  you  said,  Mr.  Moore,  that  some  rule  similar  to  the  one  set 
out  at  page  341,  with  reference  to  official  record  of  weights  on 
drivers,  was  in  your  judgment  necessary,  I  assume  you  meant 
some  satisfactory  means,  whether  by  bulletin  or  otherwise,  so 
that  the  men  might  have  information  as  to  the  weights  as  re- 
corded? 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  .And  not  necessarily  limiting  it  to  the  bulletin, 
if  some  other  method  was  advised  or  agreed  upon  as  necessar^^ 
or  agreeable? 

Mr.  Moore :  It  would  be  necessary  for  the  men  to  have  the 
information  requested. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  when  you  said  that  you  thought  this  pro- 
vision necessary,  all  that  you  meant  was  that  you  had  in  mind 
some  provision  that  would  advise  the  men;  not  necessarily  the 
exact  provision  here  or  the  exact  language  of  this  iDrovision? 

Mr.  Moore :     Well,  I  would  naturallv  confine  that  belief  to 


Kin 

till*  reatliiiu  of  tlit'  article,  l)et'aust'  it  ajipears  to  iiic  that  tiiat 
would  he  tilt'  siinplost  way  of  conveying  the  information  to  the 
men. 

Mr.  Slieean  :  Mr.  Moore,  at  page  2S],  if  you  will  turn  there 
for  just  a  moment,  that  is  Article  8,  ''Held  away  from  home 
terminal."  Vou  have,  have  you  not,  incorporated  under  that 
heading,  or  .summarized  here,  the  provisions  of  the  schedule 
which  have  any  bearing  on  that  x^artieular  matter,  even  though 
they  he  not  s})ecifically  limited  to  being  held  away  from  home 
terminals :' 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir,  I  have  incorporated  every  article 
which  jirovides  in  any  manner,  payment  for  being  held  away 
from  home  terminals. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  how  many  did  yon  say  were  a|)[)lical)le 
(mly  for  messenger  service  or  getting  an  engine? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  did  not  state  the  number  of  roads,  in  which 
the  rule  distinctly  refers  to  messenger  service,  but,  the  majority 
of  the  roads  I  named  have  rules  referring  to  messenger  service; 
1  might  say  solely  to  messenger  service. 

Mr.  Sheean :  How  many  of  them  solely  to  messenger  serv- 
ice ' 

Mr.  jMoore :  There  are  four  of  the  roads  of  the  24  that  I 
mentioned,  on  which  the  articles  ref<'r  to  service  in  general  and 
there  are — 

Mr.  Sheean:    What  four  are  those? 

Mr.  Moore:  Those  are  the  Canadian  Northern;  the  Mis- 
souri, Oklahoma  &  (julf,  the  St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco,  and  the 
Ti'inity  &  Brazos  Valley. 

]\lr.  Sheean:  Well,  the  Canadian  Northern  provides,  does 
it  not,  for  ])aying  simply  one  day  out  of  each  24  hour  period 
after  the  lapse  of  18  hours? 

Mr.  Moore :  Yes,  but  it  applies — it  does  not  limit  the  appli- 
cation of  the  rule,  as  I  would  understand  from  its  plain  and 
obvious  meaning,  but  it  applies  to  any  character  of  service. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  is  there  any  road  which  makes  provision 
for  the  payment  of  contiuous  time  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  Well,  I  cannot  state  positively,  but,  I  am  under 
the  impression  that  all  the  roads  that  I  named,  have  a  pro- 
vision for  the  payment  of  one  day  for  each  24  hours  held,  or  some 
limitation  similar  to  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :    The  messenger  man  under  this  rule,  together 


1G7 

with  tlie  five  hour  day  rule,  would  be  paid  for  five  days  in  each 
24  hour  period,  would  he? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  am  not  prepared  to  state  what  the  appli- 
cation— 

Mr.  Slieean :  He  would  be  paid  continuously,  and,  if  his  day 
were  a  five  hour  thiy,  he  would  get  as  many  days  as  there  was 
time  five  hours  he  was  held  there? 

Mr.  Moore :    Well,  I  hadn't  thought  of  that. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Well,  you  don't  find  in  any  schedule  of  any 
railroad  any  provision  for  paying  continuous  time,  do  you,  such 
as  I  have  proposed? 

Mr.  Moore :    Not  that  I  recall. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  nearest  to  it  is  the  Canadian  Nor- 
thern which,  after  18  hours,  will  pay  9  hours  out  of  each  suc- 
ceeding 24,  they  having  a  9  hour  day  up  there.  They  pay  one 
day  out  of  24  (hours)  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  think  that  is  the  way  the  rules  generally 
read. 

Mr.  Sheean :    I  think  that  is  all. 

REDIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  counsel  for  the  railroads  asked 
you  if  there  were  any  roads  having  a  five  hour  rule  for  firemen 
in  passenger  service,  or  a  five  hour  day;  all  classes  of  passen- 
ger service.  Would  you  please  turn  to  the  Houston  &  Texas 
Central  Railroad  on  page  26.    It  reads : 

"Whenever  the  time  consumed  on  any  passenger  trip  aver- 
ages less  than  22  miles  per  hour,  22  miles  per  hour  w^ill  be  the 
basis  for  comx^uting  overtime,  thirty  minutes  to  be  counted  one 
hour,  less  than  thirty  minutes  not  to  be  counted;  overtime  pro- 
rata." 

Would  you  understand  that  w^ould  apply  to  all  passenger 
service  on  the  Houston  &  Texas  Central  Railroad? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  understand  that  it  would  apply  to  all  pas- 
senger service  there  for  the  reason  that  there  are  no  exceptions 
made. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  Houston,  East  &  West  Texas,  on  the 
next  page,  first  paragraph,  near  the  top,  reading  in  nearly  the 
same  language.  Would  you  understand  that  would  applj'  in  like 
manner? 


168 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes,  sir,  I  understaiul  that  \voiild  apply  in 
like  manner,  for  the  reason  I  see  that  no  exceptions  have  been 
made  to  the  rule. 

Mr.  Phillips:  San  Antonio  «&  Aransas  Pass,  on  page  45, 
reads : 

''The  basis  of  a  day's  work  in  passenger  service  will  be 
100  miles  or  less,  five  honrs  or  less." 

Is  that  generally  applicable  to  the  system  from  the  read- 
ing of  the  schedule  rules? 

Mr,  Moore:  I  would  judge  so,  although  I  am  not  famil- 
iar with  the  application  of  the  rule. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Well,  on  page  32,  Missouri  &  North  Arkan- 
sas: 

''100  miles  or  less  will  constitute  a  day  (in  passenger  serv- 
ice). Overtime  will  be  allowed  on  basis  of  20  miles  per  hour 
and  paid  for  at  one-tenth  of  the  daily  rate  for  each  hour 
earned. ' ' 

Do  you  find  anything  in  the  other  rules  there  which  would 
make  any  other  rate  for  passenger  service  or  any  other  basis 
for  a  day's  pay  in  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Moore :  Not  unless  the  turn-around  proposition  about 
the  middle  of  that  reproduction  refers  to  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  "Turn-around  runs,"  beginning  there,  do 
you  mean? 

Mr.  Moore:  Yes;  I  don't  know  if  that  would  be  an  ex- 
ception to  the  rule  or  not. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  Is  any  time  specified  for  the  turn-around 
run? 

Mr.  Moore:  No  time  specified,  but  there  is  a  specification 
for  two  trips,  two  runs. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  Well,  without  attempting  to  examine  you 
as  a  schedule  expert,  if  two  trips  aggregated  100  miles,  and 
five  hours  Avere  consumed,  would  you  understand  that  consti- 
tuted a  day  under  this  rule? 

Mr.  Moore:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  counsel  also  asked  you  if  any  roads 
were  paying  overtime  at  the  rate  of  twenty  miles  per  hour  or 
anv  other  rate  than  one-tenth  of  the  dailv  rate. 

Mr.  Moore :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Turn  again,  please,  to  page  26,  Houston  & 


169 

Texas  Central  Eailroad,  the  same  rule  before  read,  concliKling 
with  the  words  providing  for  twenty-two  miles  per  hour  as  the 
basis  for  computing  overtime,  overtime  pro  rata.  Would  3'OU 
understand  that  overtime  would  be  allowed  at  the  rate  of  twen- 
ty-two miles  per  hours 

Mr.  Moore :     That  is  mj^  understanding  of  the  term. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And,  if  similar  provision  appears  in  other 
rules,  you  would  understand  where  the  term  ^'pro  rata"  is  used 
and  the  train  made  twenty  miles  an  hour  for  the  first  five  hours, 
the  basic  trip,  that  they  would  receive  the  same  for  overtime? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  the  pro  rata  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  asked  if  there  were  any  roads  which  had 
as  m.any  splits  on  the  weights  on  drivers  basis  as  appear  in 
this  article  submitted  to  arbitration.  Have  any  of  the  roads  as 
many  splits  or  different  classifications  of  pay  on  any  other  basis 
or  different  bases? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  did  not  make  any  investigation  along  that 
line.  If  mv  recollection  is  correct,  I  stated  that  I  was  under  the 
impression  that  the  Southern  Pacific,  Pacific  System,  had  \X\<i 
greatest  number  of  rates  of  pay  fixed  on  w^eight  on  driver  basis, 
but  I  do  not  know  how  many  different  classifications  obtain  in 
this  particular  schedule. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  Perhaps  you  did  not  understand  my  ques- 
tion. I  understood  you  very  clearly  as  to  weights  on  drivers, 
but,  taking  other  methods  of  classifying  engines  or  fixing  rates 
of  pay  for  firemen,  have  any  roads  as  many  dift'erent  or  more 
different  rates  on  any  other  basis? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  am  under  the  impression  that  there  are  a 
number  of  roads  w^hich  have  fully  as  many  different  bases  for 
fixing  rates  of  pay  as  enumerated  in  this  proposed  article. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  were  asked  if  gradient  differential  al- 
lowances were  not  made  in  some  instances  between  certain  points 
on  specific  trains.  Are  you  able  to  state  from  your  reading  of 
the  rules  whether  such  allowance  between  specific  points  would 
apply  to  all  trains  operating  between  such  points? 

Mr.  Moore:  On  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  Coast 
Lines,  the  schedule  simply  specifies  constructive  mileage  will  be 
allowed  as  follows:  "Between  Winslow  and  Williams,  100  miles 
in  both  directions.  Between  Winslow  and  Ashport,  120  miles  in 
both  directions."  Wliile  I  do  not  know,  I  am  under  the  impres- 
sion that  this  applies  to  all  trains  between  those  points. 


170 

Mr.  Pliilli})s:  (\)iuisei  lor  Uiv  niilroads  asked  you  if  local 
frei^Jit  rates  would  apply  to  other  than  local  freight  trains —  pos- 
sibly not  in  just  that  language — and  he  read  or  (pioted  from 
the  Chicago  &  Northwestern  rule  something  to  this  eifect:  "This 
shall  not  he  construed  to  a})ply  to  through  trains  setting  out 
and  i)icking  u})  carloads  or  handling  small  lots  of  local  freight." 
The  final  four  words  or  perhaps  only  the  word  "emergency"  was 
omitted — perluips  not  intentionally.  It  said  "In  case  of  emer- 
gency." Now,  would  you  understand  if  through  or  irregular 
freight  trains  were  required  to  do  this  except  in  case  of  emer- 
gency they  would  get  the  local  freight  rate  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  would  so  understand  the  rule.  I  might  state, 
however,  in  addition  to  that,  that  quite  a  number  of  roads  pay 
way  freight  rates  to  the  through  freight  trains  for  the  per- 
formance of  some  part  of  the  service  covered  by  the  proposed 
rule. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  asked  if  any  road  paid  a  day's  pay  for 
nine  hours  and  thirty  minutes  work,  as  provided  by  this  rule. 
I  believe  that  you  stated  that  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio  Chicago 
Terminal  had  a  twenty  minute  dinner  hour? 

Mr.  Moore :     That  is  the  switch  engine  rule? 

Mr.  Phillips:  Switch  engine  rule,  yes.  This  has  reference 
to  yard  ser\'ice.  If  firemen  under  that  rule  worked  nine  hours 
and  forty  minutes,  and  were  given  their  twenty  minutes,  would 
you  understand  that  they  would  be  given  ten  hours'  pay? 

^fr.  Sheean:  I  think  he  said  he  could  not  tell  from  the 
schedule  whether  that  would  be  the  interpretation  of  those  two 
schedules  or  not. 

Mr.  Moore :  I  think  I  said  that  I  was  unable  to  determine 
whether  the  time  was  continuous  or  not  My  understanding  of 
the  general  term  "ten  hours  or  less  shall  constitute  a  day's 
work"  is  that  they  will  be  paid  for  ten  hours,  even  though  they 
perform  a  less  number  of  hours'  service  in  a  day's  work. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  AVe  will  take  the  ten  hour  roads ;  they  seem  to 
be  easier  for  us  to  understand.  If  a  fireman  was  working  on 
one  of  these  roads  on  which  you  stated  there  Avere  so  many  hav- 
ing a  ten  hour  day,  and  most  of  them  have  switch  engine  meal 
hour  allowances — if  a  fireman  was  on  duty  eleven  hours,  or  from 
seven  a.  m.  till  six  p.  m.,  and  he  Avorked  ten  hours  and  thirty 
minutes,  would  he,  under  the  rules,  receive  eleven  hours'  pay? 


171 

Mr.  Moore:  From  my  oxporieiice  the  amount  of  pay  he 
woiikl  receive  wouki  be  conditional  upon  the  wording  of  the  rule. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Perhaps  it  was  unfair  for  me  to  ask  you  that 
question.  I  believe  that  is  about  the  point  I  objected  to  Mr. 
Sheean  asking  his  questions.  With  regard  to  this  arbitrary  al- 
lowance for  preparatory  time  for  firemen,  I  think  you  quoted  the 
Canadian  Northern,  the  Duluth,  Winnipeg  &  Pacific,  the  Can- 
adian Pacific,  and  the  Esquimalt  and  that  Jaj^anese  road  out 
there,  the  Nanaimo,  as  having  arbitrary  allowances  for  prepara- 
tory time. 

Mr,  Moore :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  PhilliiDs :  The  Canadian  Pacific  rule,  for  example, 
reads,  at  the  bottom  of  page  246:  "Firemen  to  be  paid  thirty 
minutes  preparatory  time,  at  schedule  rates,  for  getting  engines 
ready  before  going  out  on  run  or  shift. ' '  That  is  the  allowance 
which  I  understand  vou  stated  3^ou  believed  to  be  an  arbitrarv 
allowance  ? 

Mr.  Moore :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  page  333,  the  Canadian  Pacific  Railroad, 
under  the  caption  or  heading  of  placing  supplies  on  locomotives, 
it  is  specifically  provided  there,  in  the  rule,  "engines  will  be  sup- 
plied with  coal,  sand,  water,  oil,  waste  and  grease  supplies  by 
engine  house  staff  at  terminals,  but  firemen  will  be  responsible 
for  seeing  that  engines  are  supplied. ' '  Would  you  understand 
from  that,  that  although  the  fireman  is  relieved  of  doing  the 
work,  only  held  responsible  for  knowing  that  it  is  done,  that 
rule  applies  at  points  where  he  is  allowed  the  thirty  minutes 
arbitrary  preparatory  time  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     I  would  think  so. 

Mr.  Phillips :     I  think  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Shea:  Before  you  leave,  Mr.  Moore,  I  would  like  to 
have  you  turn  to  page  203,  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy 
Railroad.  Counsel  for  the  railroads  questioned  you  with  re- 
gard to  using  a  fireman  on  runs  where  less  than  100  hours  were 
consumed,  and  where  less  than  10  hours  were  consumed,  which 
shows  that  it  can  be  done  on  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy 
Railroad.  Are  there  any  other  railroads  in  this  arbitration  that 
have  a  similar  rule? 

Mr.  Moore:  I  am  quite  satisfied  that  tliis  is  the  only 
road  in  these  negotiations  that  has  a  rule  of  this  character. 


172 

Mr.  Shea :  Are  you  familiar  ^vitll  the  wage  agreement 
reached  between  the  Firemen  and  the  Conference  Committee  of 
Manasrers  in  the  winter  of  1906-07  ? 

Mr.  Moore:      Reasonably  so,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea:  'SMiat  provisions  were  made  with  regard  to 
paying  firemen  on  runs  of  100  miles  or  less,  ten  hours  or  less  ? 

Mr.  Moore:  The  rule,  as  I  remember  it,  provided  that  a 
day's  work  would  be,  for  firemen,  100  miles  or  less,  ten  hours 
or  less. 

Mr.  Shea:  Was  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  Rail- 
road a  party  to  that  agreement  ? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea :  Then,  is  it  your  understanding  that  the  Clii- 
cago,  Burlington  &'  Quiucy  Railroad  has  applied  the  agreement 
of  1906-07  as  was  intended  and  agreed  to  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Moore:  It  is  mv  understanding  that  thev  did  not 
apply  it  as  it  was  intended  and  agi'eed  to  at  that  time. 

RECROSS  EXAMIXATIOX. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  sav  vou  did  not  find  it  in  anv  other 
schedule.  Look  at  the  bottom  of  page  202  and  top  of  page  203, 
the  Chicago  &  Northwestern.  What  is  the  last  paragraph  at 
the  bottom  of  page  202?  "On  runs  70  miles  or  less  no  extra 
compensation  will  be  paid  for  switching  ser\T^ce  until  the  time 
on  duty  exceeds  ten  hours.  Less  than  thirty  minutes  will  not 
be  counted."  Doesn't  that  permit  the  railroad  company,  where 
they  have  neither  the  ten  hours  nor  the  100  miles,  to  use  the 
crew  in  switching  until  they  get  the  one  or  the  other,  for  which 
they  are  paying  the  minimum  day? 

Mr.  Moore :  Well,  the  very  plain  and  obvious  meaning  of 
that  rule,  I  would  judge,  if  a  run  is  70  miles  or  less,  they  could 
require  switching  in  connection  A\ith  that  run  to  make  up  a  day 
of  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Take  the  top  of  page  203 :  ' '  No  extra  com- 
pensation, however,  shall  be  allowed  for  switching  at  turn- 
around points  until  the  mileage  of  turn-around  trip  shall  ex- 
ceed 100  miles  or  until  the  hours  on  duty  shall  exceed  ten." 
Does  not  that  also  give  to  the  railroad  company,  which  is  paying 
for  100  miles  or  ten  hours,  the  right  to  get  one  or  the  other ' 

Mr.  Moore :     I  understand  the  rule  in  the  Burlington  sched- 


17 


Q 


ule  refers  to  the  terminal  point,  not  the  turn  around  point.  I 
may  be  in  error,  though,  as  to  its  application;  but  that  is  my 
understanding  of  the  rule,  that  it  refers  to  the  terminal  point, 

Mr.  Sheean :  What  do  you  get  from  the  language  of  the 
rule,  that  gives  you  the  terminal  point?  ''Switching  incidental 
to  his  run,"  is  the  language  of  the  rule,  is  it  not! 

Mr.  Moore:  From  the  reading  of  the  rule  "on  schedule 
runs  less  than  100  miles  when  made  in  less  than  10  hours,"  I 
would  infer  that,  he  would  have  to  arrive  at  the  destination  ter- 
minal in  less  than  ten  hours,  before  the  service  would  be  re- 
quired.   I  do  not  know  the  application  of  the  rule,  though. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Take  the  first  rule  which  vou  summarize,  at 
page  201,  under  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe: 


( i 


Switching  done  at  terminals  where  no  switch  engines  are 
emjDloyed  shall  be  paid  for  at  overtime  rates,  provided  time  con- 
sumed in  making  trip  exceeds  ten  hours  or  mileage  made  ex- 
ceeds 100." 


Does  not  that  also  give  to  the  Santa  Fe  identically  the  thing 
that  is  given  to  the  Burling-ton  under  its  rule? 

Mr.  Moore:     Yes,  I  should  judge  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So,  you  were  in  error  in  stating  that  the 
Burlington  was  the  only  road  that  had  a  similar  provision? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  have  made  no  investigation  along  that  line, 
and  my  intention  in  answering  the  question  was  to  say,  as  far 
as  I  knew,  or  to  the  best  of  my  recollection.  I  did  not  notice 
these  two  propositions  in  the  reproduction  of  the  rules;  and, 
while  I  am  of  the  opinion  that  there  are  no  others,  there  may  be 
others. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Let  us  turn  to  page  204.  Take  the  Chicago, 
St.  Paul,  Minneapolis  &  Omaha  Eailway  Company.  Kef  erring 
to  the  first  rule  quoted  there : 

"Extra  compensation  will  be  paid  when  enginemen  are  called 
iipon  to  do  switching  at  terminals,  provided  full  day's  work  of 
ten  (10)  hours  has  been  performed." 

Does  not  that  give  to  that  road  identically  the  thing  that  is 
given  to  the  Burlington? 

Mr.  Moore :     Let  me  see  ? 


174 

Mr.  Slieoaii:  Ki.i-lit.at  tlie  bottom  of  page  204,  the  first 
rule  that  you  smninarize. 

]\Ir,  Moore:     T  suj)i)ose  that  does. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  all. 

KE-DIKKCT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Moore,  do  you  understand  t^jat  the  s'  rv- 
ice  defined  in  these  different  rules  is  identical? 

]\[i'.  ]\[oore:  I  have  no  knowledge  of  the  application  of  the 
rules,  and  I  do  not  know  what  particular  character  of  service 
the  rule  refers  to. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Some  of  the  rules  are  lengthy,  and  it  is 
necessary  to  read  one  in  connection  with  the  other  for  the  pur- 
poses of  comparison.  Have  you  read  them  closely  enough  to 
state  whether  some  of  them  refer  to  terminal  switching,  and 
others  I'ef er  to  ijicidental  switching  between  terminals  ? 

Mr.  Moore :  I  gathered  from  the  reading  of  the  C,  B.  &  Q. 
schedule  that  it  refers  exclusively  to  terminal  switching. 

I  gathered  from  the  reading  of  one  of  these  other  rules  that 
was  read  that  it  referred  particularly  to  service  at  turn-around 
points. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  Burlington  rule  on  page  203,  that  middle 
paragraph,  seems  apparently  to  be  the  one  that  is  in  question : 

' '  On  schedule  runs  of  less  than  100  miles  when  made  in  less 
than  10  hours,  a  fireman  may  be  required  to  perform  switching 
incidental  to  his  train,  or  hostlering,  or  both,  in  order  to  give 
an  equivalent  for  the  10  hours'  service  paid  for.  This  is  not 
to  apply  to  main  line  terminals,  or  any  points  where  switch  en- 
gines or  hostlers  are  maintained." 

Now,  if  a  switch  engine  was  kept  there,  or  a  hostler  was 
maintained  at  that  point,  would  you  understand  that  the  fireman 
would  receive  the  compensation! 

Mr.  Moore :  I  understand  that  the  service  would  not  be  re- 
quired of  him. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Well,  if  he  performed  it,  would  he  not  be 
paid  for  it  ? 

]\Ir.  ]\[oore:     I  am  under  the  impression  that  he  would. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  this  service  was  rendered  on  any  other 
than  scheduled  runs,  would  the  fireman  be  paid  for  it! 

Mr.  Moore :     I  think  he  would,  from  the  reading  of  the  rule. 

Mr.  Phillips:     If  the  Board  please,  I  think  nothing  empha- 


175 

sizes  the  necessity  of  a  uniform  rule  more  than  the  discussion 
we  have  just  engaged  in.  While  I  do  not  presume  that  the  wit- 
ness is  competent  to  interpret  these  schedules,  I  have  no  hesi- 
tancy in  repeating  my  former  assertion  that  I  doubt  if  anybody 
else  can  interpret  them.  They  are  here  for  the  purpose  of  com- 
parison, and  I  think  their  ambiguities  will  be  disclosed,  even 
by  a  casual  reading. 

The  Chairman:  Is  there  anything  further  from  this  wit- 
ness? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Nothing. 

The  Chairman:  We  will  take  an  adjournment  until  10 
o'clock  tomorrow  morning. 

(Whereupon,  at  4:50  o'clock  P.  M.,  December  1,  1914,  an  ar- 
journment  was  taken  until  10  o'clock  A.  M.,  December  2,  1914.) 


177 


IN  THE  MATTER  OF  THE 

ARBITRATION 
between  the 
WESTERN  RAILWAYS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 
ENGINEERS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD    OF    LOCOMOTIVE    FIRE- 
MEN AND  ENGINEMEN 

under  the  Act  approved  July  15,  1913,  by  agree- 
ment dated  August  3,  1914. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  December  2,  1914. 

Met  pursuant  to  adjournment  at  10  o'clock  A.  M. 

Present :     Arbitrators  and  parties  as  before. 

The  Chairman :  Mr.  Stone,  you  may  proceed  with  the  ex- 
amination. 

Mr.  Stone :  Our  first  witness  has  recovered  sufficiently,  so 
we  will  jDut  him  on  the  stand  again. 

M.  W.  Cadle  was  recalled  for  further  examination,  and 
having  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Cadle,  how  manv  roads  in  the  AVestern 
territory  pay  through  freight  rates  or  better  for  work  for  train 
service? 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  are  thirteen. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  do  not  think  it  will  be  necessary  to  read  the 
names  in.  There  are  thirteen  roads  in  the  Western  territory 
that  pay  through  freight  rates  or  better  for  work  train  service. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  How  many  roads  are  there  (Article  5)  in  the 
Western  territory  that  pay  an  arbitrary  allowance  for  prepara- 
tory time? 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  are  eight. 

Mr.  Stone:  Your  understanding  is  that  this  arbitrary  al- 
lowance is  paid  in  addition  to  any  other  time  that  may  be  earned 
during  a  trip? 


178 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir,  it  is  separate  and  distinct.  Every 
time  a  man  prepares  his  engine  be  has  30  minutes  earned. 

Mr.  Stone:     They  are  not  all  30  minutes,  are  they? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Some  of  them  are  an  hour. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  think  there  is  one,  if  I  recall  it,  that  has  not 
so  much  as  that ;  only  fifteen  minutes,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Cadle :     They  vary. 

Mr.  Stone:  But  there  are  eight  roads  that  pay  an  arbi- 
trary allowance  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  Article  6.  "Initial  terminal  delay."  How 
many  roads  are  there  in  the  Western  territory  that  pay  an  initial 
terminal  delay  in  some  form  or  other? 

Mr.  Cadle :  In  the  Western  territory  there  are  30  railroads 
that  pay  initial  terminal  delay  to  engineers  if  held  one  hour  or 
more,  and  some  of  these  railroads  require  61  minutes  before 


Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 


Before  terminal  delay  begins  1 
Begins,  yes,  sir. 

If  he  was  held  61  minutes,  though,  he  would  be 
paid  his  full  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle :     One  full  hour. 

Mr.  Stone:     Are  there  anv  other  roads  that  are  different 
from  that? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  there  is  one  railroad  that  pays  after  an 
engineer  has  been  held  45  minutes. 

Mr.  Stone:     Any  others  that  pay  for  less  time  than  when 
held  45  minutes? 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  are  twelve  railroads  that  pay  on  30  and 
31  minutes. 

Mr.  Stone :     Twelve,  that  pay  an  initial  terminal  delay  for 
30  and  31  minutes? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :     Are  there  any  that  pay  for  a  less  time  than  30 
minutes? 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  are  five  that  pay  on  15  minutes. 

Mr.  Stone:    Are  there  any  that  pay  initial  terminal  pay 
on  a  minute  basis,  on  the  cumulative  plan? 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  are  seven  such  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone:     In  the  Western  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 


Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 


179 

Well,  how  is  that  cumulative  time  divided  up? 
One  mile  for  each  six  minutes. 
How  many  roads  are  there  in  the  Southeastern 
territory  that  pay  initial  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle :  In  the  Southeast  there  are  16  railroads,  in  the 
Southeast  territory,  that  pay  initial  terminal  delay  to  engineers 
if,  held  one  hour  or  more. 

Mr.  Stone :     Are  there  any  that  pay  for  less  time  than  that? 
Mr.  Cadle:     There  are  two  railroads  that  pay  initial  ter- 
minal delay  to  engineers  if  held  30  minutes. 

Mr.  Stone :  When  we  left  off  with  your  testimony  the  other 
night  we  had  just  finished  up  deadheading.  The  next  is  Article 
10,  Hostlers. 

Article  10  is  as  follows : 

'''Hostlers. — At  points  where  an  average  of  six  or  more  loco- 
motives are  handled  within  twelve  hours,  day  or  night,  hostlers 
shall  be  maintained. 

^^ Positions,  how  filled. — Hostling  positions  shall  be  filled 
from  the  ranks  of  the  firemen,  and  they  shall  be  paid  $3.35  per 
day  of  ten  hours  or  less;  provided  that  where  hostlers  are 
required  to  make  main  line  movements,  they  shall  be  paid  $4.75 
per  day  of  ten  hours  or  less,  overtime  in  each  case  to  be  com- 
puted on  the  minute  basis-  and  paid  for  at  the  rate  of  time  and 
one-half. 

''When  such  main-line  or  road  Hostlers  are  paid  the  same 
rate  as  engineers  in  switching  service,  such  position  shall  be 
filled  from  the  ranks  of  the  engineers. 

''Meal  hour. — Hostlers  shall  be  allowed  one  hour  for  meals 
between  the  hours  of  11 :30  and  1 :30,  day  or  night.  Hostlers  will 
be  assigned  regular  meal  hour  between  the  hours  named  or  after 
being  on  duty  five  hours.  Should  Hostlers  be  required  to  remain 
on  duty  after  designated  meal  hour,  one  hour  will  be  allowed  as 
overtime.  No  Hostler  will  be  required  to  remain  on  duty  longer 
than  six  hours  without  having  one  full  hour' for  meals." 

Mr.  Cadle,  I  wish  you  would  describe,  for  the  benefit  of  the 
Board,  what  the  duties  of  hostlers  are. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  there  are,  as  I  understand  it,  two  classes 
of  hostlers  and  two  services  to  perform.  They  are  what  they 
call  the  inside  hostlers.     He  is  a  man  who  handles  the  engine, 


180 

supplies,  takes  it  to  the  clinker  pit,  puts  the  engine  in  the  house, 
takes  it  out  and  places  it  on  tracks,  designated  tracks,  around 
the  roundhouse.  There  are  hostlers  called  main  line  hostlers, 
men  who  make  main  line  movements,  that  take  engines  from 
the  roundhouse  to  the  passenger  station,  take  them  from  the 
passenger  station  to  the  roundhouse — in  doing  this  they  make 
main  line  movements. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  they  always  confined  to  the  engines;  do 
they  not  handle  trains  to  and  from  some  of  the  terminals? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir,  there  are  a  great  many  railroads 
where  the  hostler  draws  the  passenger  train  out  of  the  station, 
draws  it  over  into  the  trainj^ard  and  takes  the  engine  to  the 
roundhouse. 

Mr.  Stone:  Can  you  recall  an  example  of  this  kind  any- 
where in  the  western  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle:  You  take  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  Puget 
Sound;  the  hostler  takes  their  passenger  trains  from  the  sta- 
tion, takes  them  into  the  station  or  to  the  train  yards.  That 
hostler  makes  main  line  movement.  That  hostler,  the  gentle- 
man who  holds  that  position,  is  an  engineer ;  they  would  prefer 
to  have  engineers  in  those  places  on  account  of  main  line  move- 
ments. 

Mr.  Stone :     Qualified  engineers  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir,  they  are  qualified  for  road  service; 
have  got  to  pass  all  the  examinations  before  they  are  qualified 
to  fill  those  positions. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  how  many  roads  in  the  western  territory 
do  the  engineers  make  the  rate  for  hostlers,  or  have  we  a  rate 
for  hostlers  in  the  western  territory  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Cadle :  We  have  in  the  engineers '  schedules  a  number 
of  railroads  where  the  schedule  provides  that  the  engineers 
will  not  be  required  to  handle  the  engine  at  terminal  points. 
Now,  so  far  as  the  schedule  rate  is  concerned,  those  rates  will 
be  found  in  the  firemen's  schedule,  because,  in  the  majority  of 
cases,  the  firemen  provide  the  rate  of  pay  for  the  hostler;  but, 
the  engineers  have  rules  in  their  schedules  that  relieve  them 
from  handling  the  engines  at  terminals. 

Mr.  Stone :  How  many  roads  in  the  western  territory  have 
this  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:     There  are  about  thirty-one. 


181 

Mr.  Stone:  There  are  a  few  schedules  in  effect  at  the 
present  time  in  the  west,  are  there  not,  where  we  make  the  rules 
for  the  hostler? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Do  you  know  how  many? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  I  don't  know  how  many.  I  know  there 
are  some,  but  I  do  not  know  the  names  of  the  roads. 

Mr.  Stone :     Article  II,  Surprise  Test 

Mr.  Sheean:  Before  passing  to  that,  just  to  clear  up — 
you  asked  how  many  roads  have  this  rule  and  he  answered 
thirty-one.  By  that  you  mean  a  rule  which  relieves  the  engi- 
neer at  terminals  and  not  rule  10  of  your  proposal? 

Mr.  Stone:  I  did  not  mean  it  that  way,  not  rule  10.  I 
meant,  how  many  roads  in  the  western  territory  have  a  rule, 
not  this  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  thought  just  to  clear  that  up. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  might  add  I  think  there  are  either  eight  or 
nine  roads  in  the  western  territory  that  have  a  rule  in  the  engi- 
neers'  agreement  that  provides  for  hostlers.  Coming  back  to 
this  question  of  surprise  tests,  if  the  Board  will  indulge  me  for 
just  a  moment  to  clear  up  perhaps  a  misunderstanding,  I  want  to 
make  clear  the  fact  that  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  En- 
gineers and  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and 
Enginemen  do  not  object  to  the  so-called  surprise  tests  when 
made  under  fair  working  conditions.  The  surprise  test  is  a 
misnomer,  it  should  be  an  efficiency  test,  instead,  and  I  do  not 
think  there  is  any  body  of  men  on  earth  that  we  stand  second 
to  in  our  desire  for  efficiency,  because,  leaving  the  human  ele- 
ment out  of  it  and  coming  back  to  a  selfish  basis,  we  are  not  at 
all  anxious  to  pay  for  the  insurance  of  our  men,  and  we  want 
the  safest  conditions  possible  under  which  to  work.  My  under- 
standing is,  that  the  original  intent  of  the  test  was  that  this  test 
was  made  to  see  if  the  men  engaged  in  the  transportation  serv- 
ice were  living  up  to  the  rules  of  operation.  Unfortunately 
we  drifted  away  from  that — and  I  say  this  in  no  spirit  of  crit- 
icism, because  I  realize  we  are  all  human  and  we  have  got  the 
human  element  to  deal  with,  but  some  of  our  young,  ambitious 
officials  go  out  with  the  idea  that  they  must  set  a  trap  for  a 
man  and  catch  him,  or  else  they  cannot  prove  that  they  were 
really  carrying  out  the  rules  of  operation.     I  do  not  believe 


182 

it  was  ever  intended,  gentlemen,  that  it  was  ever  necessary,  to 
set  a  trap  to  catch  some  men  in  order  to  prove  that  you  were 
trying  to  live  up  to  the  rules  of  efficiency.  We  are  perfectly 
willing  that  thev  shall  make  all  the  tests  necessary  under  actual 
working  conditions,  but  we  are  not  willing  that  they  shall  go 
out  and  set  a  trap  for  some  men.  I  believe,  with  Mr.  Park, 
who  spoke  yesterday,  that  this  should  not  be  before  this  Board^ 
but  we  bring  it  to  you  as  the  court  of  last  appeal.  We  had 
this  matter  up  in  an  incidental  way  in  our  wage  movement  in 
1907.  We  did  not  make  it  one  of  the  articles,  but  it  was  thor- 
oughly discussed  and  Vao.  gentlemen  who  were  on  the  Board  at 
that  time  will  remember  it.  We  had  it  up  in  1910  in  our  wage 
movement  again  and  it  was  discussed  and  we  protested  against 
this  very  identical  thing.  We  did  all  we  could  but  we  could 
not  get  it  stopped.  Then  we  tried  legislation.  At  the  present 
time,  in  the  state  of  Kansas,  we  have  a  law  on  the  statute  books 
that  forbids  them  turning  a  switch  light  red  in  making  a  test, 
but  in  spite  of  that  they  go  on  and  turn  it;  we  come  to  you  as 
the  court  of  last  resort. 

Gentlemen,  I  wish  it  was  possible  for  me  to  put  into  words 
what  it  means  to  a  man  in  the  cab  of  one  of  these  locomotives  to 
have  this  thing  happen.  I  have  lived  in  a  cab,  23  years  of  my 
life,  and  I  know  what  it  means.  Picture  for  yourselves,  a  morn- 
ing like  this,  with  the  fog  thick,  and  I  will  guarantee  that  the  men 
who  went  out  last  night  on  these  fast  mail  runs  over  the  Rock 
Island,  the  North  Western,  the  Burlington,  and  the  others,  went 
in  with  their  trains  on  time.  If  any  man  did  not  go  in  on  time  it 
will  take  him  thirty  days  to  tell  why  he  did  not.  That  will  be  the 
other  side.  Now,  picking  up  these  signals  in  the  fog,  a  man  sees 
a  signal  against  him  when  he  comes  within  a  very  few  feet  of  it. 
But  that  is  not  the  kind  of  a  test  thev  make  with  the  switch  light. 
A  man  is  straining  his  eyes  to  catch  that  signal  through  the  fog, 
and  when  he  does  get  it  it  is  clear.  Something  attracts  his  atten- 
tion in  the  cab  for  a  moment,  and  when  he  turns  his  eyes  back 
again  to  this  signal,  it  is  red.  Perhaps  he  is  within  three  or  four 
hundred  feet  of  it.  He  knows  there  is  no  power  on  earth  can 
stop  that  train.  It  is  not  possible  to  picture  in  words  what  it 
means  to  that  man  to  go  through  that  experience.  He  lives  a 
thousand  years  in  a  minute.  It  is  just  like  taking  his  heart  in  a 
hard  grasp,  stopping  its  beating  for  a  minute,  and  then  letting 


183 

it  go  again.  It  takes  weeks  for  a  man  to  recover  from  a  shock 
like  that,  and  if  he  has  not  a  first  class  constitution  he  will  never 
recover  from  it. 

Again,  when  they  display  a  signal  beside  the  track,  the  rules 
say  that  when  you  display  a  red  light  or  a  red  flag  beside  the 
track  you  shall  put  a  torpedo  on  the  rail.  That  is  what  is  pro- 
vided by  the  book  of  rules  in  the  Western  territory.  Now,  they 
do  not  put  down  the  torpedo  and  they  are  not  satisfied  with 
placing  the  red  light  beside  the  track  where  you  can  see  it.  They 
will  take  a  shovel  and  dig  a  hole  in  the  ballast  and'  set  the  light 
down  flush  with  the  ties,  and  it  is  just  a  fluff  of  red  light  as  you 
go  over  it  at  a  speed  of  a  mile  a  minute.  It  is  a  long  chance  if 
the  man  gets  it,  and  if  he  does  not  get  it,  another  man  has  run  by 
a  surprise  test,  and  another  man  is  up  for  discipline. 

Again,  when  they  put  out  a  red  flag  in  the  day  time  the  rules 
provide  that  they  must  put  down  a  torpedo.  Instead  of  that, 
they  will  not  put  down  the  torpedo  and  they  will  put  the  flag  ten 
feet  away  from  the  track,  behind  some  weeds,  and  if  the  man 
does  not  get  that,  another  man  has  run  by  a  surprise  test  and  is 
up  for  discipline. 

Again,  in  watching  signals,  a  man  is  watching  for  signals 
thirty  feet  from  the  ground.  They  are  liable  to  take  them  away 
from  you  almost  any  time.  Last  week  they  conducted  a  surprise 
test  which  consisted  of  a  red  light  at  the  foot  of  the  mast,  thirty 
feet  below  on  the  ground.  The  man  got  that  and  did  not  get  by. 
But  that  is  the  kind  of  surprise  tests  that  we  object  to.  They 
are  unfair  and  they  are  not  under  real  conditions.  Understand, 
it  is  not  because  we  do  not  want  the  efficiency  of  our  men  tested. 
We  do  want  a  square  deal  out  of  the  thing,  and  we  are  not  get- 
ting it,  and  we  are  sacrificing  some  of  our  best  men. 

On  this  question  of  switch  lights,  it  is  true  that  now,  since 
we  have  made  so  many  protests,  they  have  changed  it  from  the 
head  of  the  switch  to  the  trailing  switch  point,  where  they  turn 
the  light.  But,  even  then  it  is  dangerous.  With  one  of  those 
big  engines,  he  has  got  to  run  through  the  switch  if  it  is  thrown 
wrong,  and  he  is  liable  to  derail  the  big  engine  if  he  takes  the 
switch  at  tliat  speed.  Of  course,  the  switch  is  not  thrown,  but 
the  man  in  the  cab  does  not  know  that.  The  result  is  that  it  is 
putting  an  unfair  test  on  our  men. 

Regarding  the  wiring  down  of  automatic  signals,  the  sig- 


184 

nals  are  placed,  perhaps  lialf  a  mile  apart  or  a  mile  apart.  A 
man  is  busy  catching  the  signals  ahead  and  watching  the  track. 
The  minute  he  strikes  the  electric  circuit  the  signal  is  supposed 
to  drop  to  "danger."  It  is  automatic  in  its  working.  The  man 
is  busy,  trying  to  catch  the  next  signal  ahead,  in  the  fog  or  smoke 
or  sleet  or  snow.  Instead  of  that,  he  is  required  to  turn  around 
in  his  cab  and  look  back  and  see  if  the  last  signal  dropped  to 
danger.  That  is  another  surprise  test.  We  believe  that  test  is 
unfair,  and  that  is  the  reason  we  bring  it  here. 
Article  12  is  as  follows : 

"Assistance  for  Firemen. — On  all  locomotives  in  freight 
service  where  but  one  fireman  is  employed,  and  on  all  locomo- 
tives in  passenger  service,  coal  will  be  kept  where  it  can  be 
reached  by  the  firemen  from  the  deck  of  the  locomotive.  Coal 
of  the  proper  size  for  firing  purposes  will  be  placed  on  all  ten- 
ders." 

All  I  wish  to  say  in  regard  to  that  is,  that  we  heartily  agree, 
that  on  this  heavy  power  the  ^vork  of  the  fireman  has  gone 
beyond  the  limit  of  human  endurance  and  he  must  have  help  in 
some  manner.  The  man  does  not  live  who  can  stand  up  with  the 
heavy  work  of  shoveling  coal  into  a  big  modern  locomotive,  and 
keep  it  up,  year  in  and  year  out,  under  all  changes  of  weather. 

Article  13  is  as  follows : 

'^Two  Firemen. — On  coal  burning  locomotives  weighing 
185,000  pounds  or  more  on  drivers,  when  used  in  freight  service, 
two  firemen  will  be  employed. ' ' 

That  relates  to  the  same  subject. 
Article  14  is  as  follows: 

'^Miscellaneous. — Cleaning  of  locomotives. — On  railroads 
where  firemen  are  required  to  clean  locomotives,  they  shall  be 
relieved  of  such  service." 

That  has  been  fully  discussed  and  the  fact  remains  that  they 
have  been  relieved  of  the  cleaning  on  most  of  the  roads.  There 
are  very  few  roads  where  they  are  still  required  to  clean. 

The  next  paragraph  in  Article  14  is — 


(t 


'Setting  up  wedges,  filling  grease  cups  and  cleaning  head- 
lights.— Where  Engineers  and  Firemen  are  required  to  set  up 


185 

wedges,  fill  grease  cups,  or  clean  headlights,  they  shall  be 
relieved  of  such  service  at  all  points  where  roundhouse,  or  shop 
force,  or  an  engine  watchman  is  employed." 

How  many  railroads,  in  the  Western  territory,  Mr.  Cadle, 
relieve  the  men  from  that? 

Mr,  Cadle:  The  majority  of  them  adjust  the  wedges  and 
fill  the  grease  cups. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  is,  they  are  relieved  from  it,  jou  mean? 
The  company  does  the  work? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir.  There  are  a  number  of  schedules 
that  have  rules  providing  for  it.  The  reason  you  cannot  get 
the  exact  number  of  railroads  is,  that  there  are  some  of  the 
railroads  which  have  given  letters  to  the  representatives  of 
their  engineers,  saying  that  the  engineer  will  not  be  required 
to  adjust  wedges  or  fill  grease  cups,  but  they  do  not  print  them 
in  their  agreement.  Consequently,  I  could  not  get  the  exact 
number;  but  I  should  judge  that  a  majority  of  the  railroads 
adjust  the  wedges  and  fill  the  cups. 

The  Chairman:  A  member  of  the  Board  desires  to  ask 
a  question. 

Mr.  Park:  Mr.  Cadle,  does  not  the  use  of  the  hard  oils 
relieve  the  engineer  from  work  on  the  road  that  he  was  formerly 
required  to  do  in  oiling  around? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Park:  Did  not  the  hard  oil  originate  with  the  engi- 
neers? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Pardon  me,  a  further  answer  to  the  former 
question.  It  relieves  him  of  performing  that  work  at  the  end 
of  his  run,  that  is,  at  his  terminal.  That  is  a  part  of  his  pre- 
paratory work,  to  fill  those  grease  cups,  and  when  filled  they 
generally  would  run  the  trip. 

Mr.  Park:  But  the  use  of  the  grease  cup  with  the  hard 
oil  relieves  him  from  using  his  oil  can  in  oiling  around,  as  he 
formerly  used  to  do  at  intermediate  stations  on  the  run? 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:  What  is  the  use  of  the  grease  cup  with  the 
hard  oil? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Before  the  grease  cups  were  instituted  they 
had  an  oil  cup  on  there.  You  filled  that  oil  cup  when  you 
went  on  duty,  and  as  a  general  proposition  it  ran  over  the  trip. 
You  did  not  have  to  lubricate  that  any  more. 


186 

Mr.  Park :  Did  thoy  not  frequently  run  hot  \vitli  the  use  of 
the  liquid  oil? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Well,  they  run  hot  now  with  the  grease. 

Mr.  Park:  Do  they  give  you  as  much  trouble  with  the 
hard  oil  as  they  did  with  the  liquid  oil? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  I  do  not  tliink  so. 

Mr.  Park:  So  that  they  really  have  lessened  the  work  of 
the  engineers? 

Mr.  Cadle :  On  railroads  where  they  fill  those  grease  cups, 
they  lessen  the  work  of  the  engineer. 

Mr.  Park:  But  you  think  that  if  the  engineer  has  to  fill 
the  grease  cup  before  he  starts  out,  on  the  whole  it  would  not 
lessen  his  work  to  use  hard  oil? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  do  not  catch  your  question. 

Mr.  Park:  The  filling  of  the  grease  cup  by  the  engineer 
before  he  started  would  not  counterbalance  the  work  that  he 
formerly  did  in  filling  the  cup  with  liquid  oil,  and  the  work  of 
taking  care  of  the  hot  pins,  and  so  forth? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  establishment  of  the  grease  cup  did  not 
take  the  labor  off  of  the  engineer,  because  he  had  to  fill  the 
grease  cup  or  he  had  to  fill  the  oil  cup,  just  the  same  as  he  does 
the  grease  cup ;  but  he  could  fill  the  oil  cup  a  great  deal  quicker 
than  he  can  the  grease  cup. 

Mr.  Park:  But  he  was  very  glad  to  have  the  hard  oil  in- 
stead of  the  liquid  oil,  because  it  saves  hot  pins  and  trouble 
on  the  road? 

Mr.  Cadle:     It  proved  an  improvement. 

Mr.  Park :  Is  it  not  a  fact,  Mr.  Cadle,  that  at  the  inception 
of  the  hard  oil,  a  good  many  of  the  engineers  made  it  themselves 
and  furnished  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  of  any  railroad  where  the  en- 
gineers furnished  any  oil  for  the  engine,  only  in  one  instance. 
I  knew  one  man  who  went  to  a  meat  market  and  bought  some 
suet,  in  order  to  make  a — where  the  engineers  were  getting  an 
oil  record,  he  went  and  bought  that  so  that  he  could  beat  all  the 
rest  of  us  on  oil  record. 

Mr.  Park :  I  have  always  understood  that  hard  oil  was  the 
invention  of  the  engineers,  a  device  by  which  they  were  relieved 
of  a  good  deal  of  trouble  and  work,  and  it  has  been  quite  suc- 
cessful. 


187 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  first  hard  oil  that  I  know  of  anywhere, — 
used  anywhere,  was  gotten  up  by  Mr.  Bartlett,  on  the  Missouri 
Pacific.    That  is  the  first  I  ever  saw  of  it. 

Mr.  Park:     Is  he  an  engineer? 

Mr.  Cadle :    No,  he  is  a  master  mechanic. 

The  Chairman :    Proceed  with  the  Examination. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  think  we  will  all  agree,  Mr.  Chairman,  that 
hard  oil  has  saved  the  wear  and  tear  of  nerves  on  the  part  of  the 
engineers,  and  also  some  operating  officials  that  I  know.  It  has 
prevented  many  so-called  engine  failures,  and  it  has  worked  out 
in  favor  of  the  engineer,  because  now  if  they  fail  they  know  all 
they  had  was  the  hard  grease,  and  before  they  said  it  was  im- 
proper oiling. 

How  many  roads  in  the  western  country  take  care  of  their 
headlights,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  don't  know  as  I  could  give  you  the 
exact  number  of  roads. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  common  for  the  railroads  to  do  what 
cleaning  is  done  on  headlight  reflectors? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  railroads  since — that  is,  those  that  have 
got  electric  headlights,  employ  men  in  the  shops  to  take  care  of 
those  headlights.  The  yard  engines  that  have  not  electric  head- 
lights, the  double  crewed  engines — on  some  railroads  the  en- 
gineer that  is  running  the  day  shift  takes  care  of  the  headlight 
so  far  as  filling  it  is  concerned,  and  any  cleaning  that  has  to  be 
done  on  it. 

Mr.  Stone :  But  as  a  general  rule  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the 
shop  force  do  clean  the  headlight  first? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  they  do  on  many  railroads. 

Mr.  Stone:  '* Placing  supplies  on  engines." 

Is  it  common  practice  in  the  west  to  have  supplies  placed  on 
locomotives  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  They  place  them  on  very  near  all  the  railroads 
that  I  am  aware  of. 

Mr.  Stone:  But  you  are  held  responsible  for  these  sup- 
plies, are  you  not,  to  know  that  they  are  there  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  rules  of  the  company  require  the  engineer 
to  know  that  he  has  those  tools  when  he  goes  out,  before  going 
out  on  the  road. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  you  always  able  to  get  the  necessary 
equipment  of  supplies  for  the  locomotive? 


188 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  not  always. 

Mr.  Stone :  Mr.  Chairman,  if  I  might,  I  think  it  might  bo 
well  to  read  into  the  record  the  supplies  that  are  required  to  be 
on  a  locomotive,  because  on  the  few  railroads  where  they  are 
still  required  to  carry  them  they  make  quite  a  load. 

I  am  reading  from  tlie  Chicago  &  North  Western  Book  of 
Rules  and  Regulations.  I  just  happened  to  pick  it  up.  I  have 
quite  a  number  of  them  here. 

' '  Rule  1054.  Each  engine  in  service  is  required  to  carry,  at 
all  times,  the  following  tools  and  supplies,  and  enginemen  must 
know  that  they  have  them  and  will  be  held  responsible  for  any 
loss  or  deficiency: 

One  2-pound  cast  steel  hammer, 

One  12-inch  monkey  wrench. 

One  18-inch  monkey  wrench, 

One  18-inch  eccentric  set  screw  wrench. 

One  rod  set  screw  wrench, 

One  8-inch  cold  chisel. 

One  8-inch  cape  chisel, 

One  18-inch  set  chisel, 

One  slash  bar. 

One  flue  plug  bar. 

One  ash  hoe. 

One  steel  coal  hammer, 

One  scoop  shovel. 

One  broom. 

One  iron  water  pail. 

One  packing  iron. 

One  packing  hook. 

One  clinker  hook  (length  to  suit  fire  box). 

One  supply  of  oak  blocking. 

One  assortment  of  bolts  and  nuts, 

One  wrench  for  crank  pin  and  cross-head  pin  nuts, 

Two  white  flags,  mounted. 

Two  green  flags,  mounted. 

One  red  flag,  mounted. 

Six  torpedoes, 

Four  fusees, 

One  white  lantern. 


189 

One  red  lantern, 

One  spring  oiler, 

One  8-pint  car  oil  can. 

One  8-pint  valve  oil  can, 

One  set  lubricator  glasses  and  gaskets. 

One  water  glass  and  gasket. 

One  extra  headlight  chimney. 

One  torch, 

One  engine-truck  brass. ' ' 

Mr.  Stone :  A  slash  bar  is  a  bar  twelve  or  fifteen  feet  long 
that  he  uses  in  knocking  fire  out  in  case  he  has  to,  and  things  of 
that  kind? 

This  evidently  has  not  been  revised  since  we  have  had  the 
boiler  inspection  law,  because  they  are  not  allowed  to  plug  flues 
now. 

I  do  not  know  why  he  left  out  a  tank  truck  brass,  because 
it  is  more  important  than  the  engine  truck  brass.  Many  roads 
require  it. 

That  in  itself  makes  a  load  that  would  require  about  four 
men  to  carry. 

Mr.  Park :  Mr.  Stone,  some  of  those  appliances  are  left  on 
the  locomotive,  the  slash  bar  and  frogs  and  certain  tools. 

Mr.  Stone:  There  is  nothing  said  about  frogs  here,  and 
screw  jacks.    They  are  part  of  every  locomotive  equipment. 

Mr.  Park:  An  engineer  would  be  required  to  see  he  had 
his  screw  jacks  and  frogs  and  all  those  things. 

Mr.  Stone:  But,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  beg  leave  to  differ  with 
the  statement  from  Mr.  Park.  The  clinker  hook  and  slash  bar 
are  not  always  on  the  engine.  I  think  I  spent  at  least  one  year 
of  my  life  hunting  them  up  after  I  had  been  called  for  duty. 

Mr.  Park :  But  all  I  wanted  to  correct  in  the  minds  of  the 
Board  was  that  they  were  usually  on  an  engine. 

Mr.  Stone :  Yes,  they  should  be  on  the  engine  as  a  part  of 
the  equipment  left  on,  but  where  the  supply  is  limited,  Mr. 
Chairman,  they  are  not  always  there. 

For  example,  I  have  in  my  possession  a  statement  from  a 
road  that  has  sixteen  locomotives  and  only  twelve  sets  of  equip- 
ment, so  they  run  the  equipment  first  in  and  first  out,  as  well  as 
the  men.  The  point  I  wished  to  make  is  this,  Mr.  Chairman,  was 
the  fact  that  this  is  a  large  amount  of  supplies;  they  are  very 


190 

heavy,  and  oftentimes  the  engine  is  laying  at  an  outlying  point 
perhaps  a  quarter  of  a  mile  from  the  supply  room,  on  some 
designated  track,  and  it  makes  quite  a  back  load  to  carry. 
Article  15  is  as  follows: 

^'Official  Record  of  Weights  on  Drivers.  For  the  purpose 
of  recording  weights  on  drivers,  each  railroad,  parties  to  this 
agreement,  will  permanently  post  bulletins  at  all  terminals 
showing  accurate  service-weights  of  all  locomotives. ' ' 

"Why  is  that  i^laced  in  there,  Mr.  Cadle? 


Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 


Weights  on  drivers? 
Yes. 

They  believed  that  that  would  be  a  more  equi- 
table way  to  compute  the  time. 

Mr.  Stone :  Why  do  we  want  the  official  record  posted  up ; 
so  we  can  get  them? 

Mr.  Cadle :  So  you  can  know  what  rate  of  pay  you  are  go- 
ing to  get  for  your  day 's  work.  That  would  be  what  I  would  be 
interested  in  if  I  was  running  a  locomotive. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  think  it  is  absolutely  necessary,  Mr.  Chair- 
man, that  there  should  be  some  official  record  of  the  weights  on 
drivers.  In  the  old  days  when  a  new  class  of  locomotive  came 
from  any  of  the  locomotive  works,  from  the  Baldwin  or  from 
Schenectady  or  the  American — Schenectady  is  now  a  part  of 
the  American — we  used  simply  to  write  to  the  locomotive 
builder  and  ask  him  for  a  blue  print  giving  a  weight  and  a  de- 
scription of  the  locomotive;  it  is  impossible  to  get  that  at  this 
time.  That  information  has  all  been  shut  off.  They  simply 
reply  to  us,  *'We  are  not  allowed  to  give  you  any  information; 
you  will  have  to  get  this  from  the  road  where  the  locomotive 
is  in  service. ' '  The  unfortunate  part  is  although  these  locomo- 
tives are  built  of  steel  and  iron,  that  the  weight  will  not  stay 
the  same.  For  example,  on  our  last  agreement,  in  1910,  we 
got  a  certain  rate,  25  cents  additional  increase  for  locomotives 
weighing  over  215,000  pounds  on  drivers.  There  were  locomo- 
tives in  service  at  that  time  that  had  been  rated  at  218,000 
pounds,  and  so  designated  on  the  side  of  the  cab.  A  great  many 
of  the  roads  print  the  weight  on  the  side  of  the  cab.  As  soon 
as  that  became  effective  these  locomotives  were  reweighed  and  a 
new  weight  stenciled  on  the  side  of  the  cab,  and  it  was  found 


191 

they  only  weighed  214,500  pounds,  so  they  didn't  get  the  higher 
rate.  I  do  not  care  particularly  what  the  weight  of  an  engine  is, 
so  long  as  it  is  once  established,  and  we  know  it  is  the  true 
weight.  Very  few  railroads  in  the  western  part  of  the  country 
have  track  scales  large  enough  to  weigh  a  locomotive,  so  they 
weigh  first  one  end  of  the  locomotive  and  then  the  other  and 
guess  at  the  rest  of  it.  It  is  true,  there  is  a  formula  for  making 
this  computation,  but  it  has  been  tried  time  and  again  and  found 
not  to  be  correct.  You  may  take  a  big  locomotive  and  weigh  it  on 
a  scale  that  way  and  you  will  find  that  you  will  not  always  get 
the  same  weight.  Unless  you  have  a  scale  long  enough  to  take 
the  full  length  of  the  locomotive,  at  one  time,  it  is  almost  im- 
possible for  some  of  these  western  roads  to  get  the  correct 
weight  of  an  engine.  We  want  that  article  granted  so  that  we 
can  know  the  weight  of  the  locomotives,  so  that  if  you  give  us  a 
rating  for  180,000  jDounds  on  drivers  and  if  it  weighs  183,000 
pounds  now  we  do  not  expect  it  to  weigh  175,000  pounds  after 
the  award  is  handed  down. 
Article  16  is  as  follows : 

'^Throiving  Switches  and  Flagging.  Engineers  and  fire- 
men will  not  be  required  to  throw  switches,  flag  through  blocks, 
or  fill  water  cars. ' ' 

We  ask  that  the  engineers  and  firemen  be  not  required  to 
throw  switches  or  to  flag  through  blocks.  We  do  not  believe  it 
is  any  part  of  the  duty  of  a  locomotive  engineer  to  throw 
switches  and  in  case  he  should  be  injured  while  down  throwing 
a  switch,  it  is  a  very  great  question  in  the  minds  of  some  of  our 
legal  men  whether  he  would  be  able  to  recover  or  not,  because 
it  is  not  in  the  discharge  of  his  duties.  That  I  believe  finishes 
the  case,  Mr.  Sheean,  or,  rather,  finishes  with  this  witness. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Mr.  Stone,  in  your  last  remark  relative  to 
Article  16,  you  stated:  "We  do  not  believe  it  is  any  part  of  an 
engineer's  duty  to  throw  switches  or  flag  through  blocks."  Did 
you  intend  that  also  to  apply  to  firemen? 

Mr.  Stone:  Oh,  yes,  certainly.  Or  the  filling  of  water 
cars.  For  example,  in  the  Eastern  territory,  the  Firemen  arbi- 
trated the  question  of  whether  or  not  they  would  be  required 
to  fill  lubricators — thev  had  been  filling  them  for  vears — the 
Board  of  Arbitration  granted  an  award  that  they  would  not 


192 

be  required  to  fill  lubricators.  Several  of  the  roads  in  the 
Eastern  territory  issued  instructions  at  once  that  engineers 
would  be  required  to  fill  lubricators,  although  it  had  never  been 
a  part  of  his  duty.  The  moment  the  fireman  was  relieved  from 
it,  it  was  placed  upon  the  engineer.  So  we  ask  that  that  article 
be  granted. 

Mr.  Park:  The  rules  and  regulations  of  the  transporta- 
tion department  require  the  fireman  to  take  the  place  of  the 
head  brakeman  in  case  he  is  incapacitated  for  duty.  Aren't 
there  some  circumstances  under  which  it  would  be  imperative 
for  the  fireman  to  protect  the  head  end  of  his  train,  or  a  colli- 
sion might  be  imminent,  or  possibly  occur? 

Mr.  Stone:  There  might  be  some  emergency  occasion 
arising,  due  to  a  wreck,  where  the  head  brakeman  was  tem- 
porarily disabled  or  where  some  light  engine  would  be  going 
over  the  road  without  a  pilot,  as  some  of  the  roads  are  now 
doing,  and  it  might  be  necessary  for  the  engineer  and  the  fire- 
man both  to  flag,  under  an  emergency  case;  but  an  emergency 
is  one  thing  and  the  company's  convenience  is  another,  and 
there  is  a  broad  distinction  between  the  two.  It  is  made  the 
company's  convenience.  An  engine  is  cut  off  from  a  train  and 
returned  to  some  terminal  and  the  men  have  to  throw  the 
switches  and  take  the  engine  to  the  roundhouse,  and  you  compel 
the  fireman  to  do  it,  or,  when  an  engine  is  ready  to  leave  the 
roundhouse,  instead  of  sending  a  man  to  throw  the  switches 
for  the  engine,  you  compel  the  engineer  or  the  fireman  to  throw 
the  switches.     That  is  what  Ave  want  to  get  away  from. 

Mr.  Park:  This  rule  would  absolutely  prohibit  the  rail- 
roads from  using  the  fireman  in  case  of  accident. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  have  been  railroading  for  twenty-five  years 
and  I  have  never  seen  a  time  yet  tliat  every  man,  in  case  of  an 
emergency,  did  not  do  everything  possible. 

Mr.  Park:  But  you  have  got  to  define  the  duties.  The 
rules,  for  many  years,  have  said  that  if  the  rear  brakeman  was 
incapacitated  the  conductor  would  take  his  place,  and  that  if 
the  head  brakeman  was  incapacitated,  the  fireman  would  take 
liis  place,  so  it  is  thoroughly  understood  in  such  emergencies 
that  the  fireman  or  the  conductor  will  perform  that  duty,  and 
there  is  no  division  of  responsibility. 

Mr.  Stone:     Mr.  Chairman.  I  do  not  think  there  was  ever 


193  ' 

any  question  about  quibbling  over  the  use  of  the  word  ''emer- 
gency"; but  it  became  so  elastic  that  it  covers  a  multitude  of 
sins.  It  covers  almost  anything  that  the  transportation  de- 
partment says  it  ought  to  apply  to.  You  can  imagine  a  fire- 
man shoveling  coal  into  one  of  these  big  locomotives,  wringing 
wet  with  perspiration,  and  then  getting  out  into  weather  40 
degrees  below  zero,  jumping  out  in  his  thin  clothes,  and  going 
up  the  track  a  mile,  to  flag,  in  zero  weather  or  worse.  He  will 
be  chilled  to  the  bone.  He  is  not  equipped  like  the  trainman, 
who  is  ready  for  that  kind  of  emergency  and  who  carries  heavy 
clothing  for  it. 

The  Chairman:  You  may  proceed  with  the  cross  exami- 
nation. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  from  your  examination  of  the 
schedules  to  which  you  referred  on  your  direct  examination, 
have  you  found  any  schedule  of  any  railroad  which  contains 
all  of  the  articles  embodied  in  this  request? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Either  in  the  United  States,  or  Canada,  or 
elsewhere? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Ask  your  question  again,  please,  until  I  get 
the  idea. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  spoke  of  there  being  in  a  schedule  or 
a  number  of  schedules  some  one  or  more  of  these  various  arti- 
cles in  some  form.  What  I  wanted  to  develop  was,  whether 
or  not  the  schedule  of  any  railroad  company  contained  all  of 
the  articles,  of  the  sixteen  articles,  which  you  propose  in  this 
submission? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir,  they  do  not  contain  all  of  them. 

Mr.  Sheean:  No  single  railroad  schedule.  Now,  did  you 
make  any  analysis  to  determine  how  many  of  these  sixteen 
requests  appear  concurrently  in  the  schedule  of  any  one  rail- 
road company? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  did  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Are  you  able  to  state,  Mr.  Cadle,  whether 
you  found  in  the  schedule  of  any  railroad  company,  as  many 
as  five  of  these  requests — of  your  sixteen? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  I  think  that  there  would  be  that  many; 
there  would  be  five. 


194 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  would  be  your  judgment,  that  there 
probably  would  be  that  many,  but  you  could  not  tell  just  which 
five  articles  they  might  be? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  turning  to  Article  1,  Mr.  Cadle,  or  the 
first  part  of  Article  1,  "100  miles  or  less,  five  hours  or  less,  will 
constitute  a  day's  work  in  all  classes  of  passenger  service.  All 
mileage  in  excess  of  100  miles  shall  be  paid  for  pro  rata." 

Can  you  tell  me  of  a  single  schedule,  in  the  United  States 
or  Canada,  that  contains  that  provision  in  that  form? 

Mr.  Cadle:     You  are  laying  your  stress  on  the  "all." 

Mr.  Sheean:     On  "all";   yes,  Mr.  Cadle. 

Mr.  Cadle:  As  I  understand  it,  in  Article  1,  in  making  a 
rate  for  passenger  service,  there  are  railroads  that  make  differ- 
entials for  branch  passenger  trains  and  short  passenger  trains 
and  also  for  suburban  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  certainly  are,  which  make  that  provi- 
sion, but  the  other  alternative,  Mr.  Cadle — is  there  any  schedule 
which  does  not  make  that  distinction  and  which  does  provide, 
as  this  submission  provides,  that  it  would  apply  to  all  classes 
of  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir,  I  think  there  are. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Can  you  name  any  one  of  them? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Take  any  road  here;  if  they  have  no  suburban 
service,  they  do  not  mention  it  in  their  schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Can  you  name  a  railroad  having  a  schedule, 
in  which  this  provision,  in  the  language  in  which  you  submit 
it  here,  is  contained  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  I  think  I  can  name  a  great  many  sched- 
ules where  they  have  no  suburban  service,  that  it  is  not  men- 
tioned in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  I  would  like  to  have  you,  Mr.  Cadle, 
give  me  the  name  of  the  road  having  a  schedule  in  which  the 
provision  as  to  passenger  service  is  in  the  language  which  I 
quoted  of  your  submission? 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  language  is  used  in  very  nearly  all  sched- 
ules in  the  United  States  that  I  know  of,  that  in  all  passenger 
service — it  refers  to  that  service,  it  refers  to  that  particular 
rule,  which  rule,  in  the  schedule,  makes  provision  for  different 
classes  in  that  one  sendee.    For  instance,  if  you  have  got  sub- 


195 

urban  trains  you  make  rules  for  them.  If  you  have  got  short 
runs,  you  make  rules  for  them;  but  the  language  is  used  in 
that  way  in  all  of  the  schedules  I  am  aware  of.  It  so  expresses 
it;  the  word  "all"  is  used. 

Mr.  Sheean:  My  question  was,  to  name  a  particular  road, 
or  a  single  road,  Mr.  Cadle,  in  which  this  language,  this  exact 
language,  was  used. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  don't  know  whether  there  are  any  at 
all  or  not;  I  did  not  go  into  that,  Mr.  Sheean. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  in  the  Eastern  Award,  to  which  you 
referred,  Mr.  Cadle,  there  is  specific  provision  made  whereby 
suburban  and  branch  service  or  short  runs  up  to  70  miles  are 
excepted  from  that  provision,  is  there  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  on  all  roads  where  there  are  short  runs 
or  suburban  service,  it  is  universally  the  custom,  so  far  as  you 
know,  to  make  an  exception  as  to  the  short  turn-around  and 
suburban  service,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  We  have  some  schedules  that  were  made  that 
way,  but  not  all  of  them. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  there  any  railroad  on  which  there  are 
short  runs,  or  on  which  there  is  suburban  service,  on  which 
there  are  not  schedules  in  which  that  exception  is  specifically 
contained  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  there  are  a  good  many  short  runs  that 
they  have  got  to  fix  the  rate  for  them. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then  they  except  those,  fixing  the  rate  so 
that  they  would  not  be  brought  under  the  operation  of  this  rule 
of  five  hours  or  less,  100  miles  or  less? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  railroads,  yes.  All  of  the  Eastern 
country,  as  you  say,  in  their  rules,  they  have  made  an  exception 
for  those  trains. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Just  to  get  the  question  covered  by  a  single 
answer,  if  it  be  susceptible  of  thus  being  answered,  is  there 
any  railroad  in  which  on  all  passenger  runs  the  basis  of  pay 
is  the  basis  indicated  in  your  Article  1? 

Mr.  Cadle :    I  could  not  answer  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  do  you  know  of  a  single  road  which 
has  such  a  basis  applicable  to  all  its  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  didn't  look  it  up;  I  could  not  say. 


196 

Mr.  Sheeaii:  Will  you  kindly  look  it  up?  We  will  be 
here  some  time,  and  if  you  find  a  single  road,  or  a  number  of 
roads,  on  which  this  article  is  applicable  to  all  of  its  passenger 
service,  will  you  furnis^h  the  name  of  such  road  or  roads? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  will,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  Article  1,  as  submitted,  would  be  appli- 
cable to  all  suburban  service,  would  cover  all  suburban  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  sir,  that  is  not  my  understanding  of  it. 
I  understand,  that  the  engineers,  in  their  proposition  to  the 
managers  of  the  companies,  had  written  a  letter  stating  that 
they  would  eliminate  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  letter,  Mr.  Cadle,  was  read  into  the  rec- 
ord yesterday,  and  the  letter  refers  to  Article  7,  namely,  "Auto- 
matic Release,"  and  says  "  'This  article  does  not  apply  to  helper, 
pusher  or  work  train  service.'  "  We  have  never  been  in  receipt 
of  any  letter  that  Article  1  does  not  apply  to  suburban  service. 

Mr.  Stone:     Read  ahead  a  little  further  in  the  letter. 

Mr.  Sheean:  '*  'Article  7.  Answer:  The  proposed  Auto- 
matic Release  rule  does  not  apply  to  regular  helper  or  pusher 
service,  nor  does  it  apply  to  work  train  service,  regular  or  other- 
wise, except  when  in  either  service  schedules  in  effect  October 
10,  1913,  contain  such  provision.' 

''Again  in  our  letter  of  same  date  is  the  following  language : 

"  'Article  7.  Our  proposal  does  not  contemplate  the  appli- 
cation of  the  Automatic  Release  rule  to  Suburban  Service.' 

"That  this  was  so  understood  by  the  Association  of  Western 
Railways  is  proven,"  as  you  say  by  this  statement, 

"  'because  of  the  statement  contained  in  your  reply  of  April 
27th,  that  Article  7,  Automatic  Release  and  Tie-Up,  did  not 
apply  to  Suburban  Service,  a  material  reduction  from  figures 
given  verbally  is  made.'  " 

Article  7,  Automatic  Release  and  Tie-Up,  might  be  elimi- 
nated from  a  particular  service  without  affecting  in  any  way 
Article  1,  might  it  not,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  this  Article  1,  as  it  stands,  makes  no 
exception  in  its  ap])lication  to  suburban  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  have  never  yet  worked  on  a  schedule  where 
they  had  suburban  service  but  what  we  always  made  a  rule  to 
cover  that  specific  class  of  work,  and  in  this  case,  and  in  this  rule, 


197 

-  •    .  -.  -  -  ■  '■' 

as  I  understand  it,  the  rule  was  not  Article  1,  was  not  to  apply 

in  suburban  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  do  not  think,  as  a  matter  of  prac- 
tice, that  it  would  be  fair  to  apply  Article  1,  a  five-hour  day,  to 
suburban  service,  that  is,  from  your  experience  in  schedule  mak- 
ing, you  say  you  universally  made  special  provision  to  cover 
suburban  service? 

Mr.  Cadle.  No,  I  think  it  depends  altogether  on  how  you 
operate  your  crews  on  suburban  service.  If  a  man  goes  out  and 
gives  the  company  five  hours  steady  work,  without  release,  in 
suburban  service,  I  see  no  reason  in  the  world  why  he  should 
not  get  as  much  pay  for  that  work  as  he  should  for  any  other 
class  of  service.  The  reason  for  making  a  special  rule  for 
suburban  service  is  on  account  of  the  intermissions.  There  are 
certain  periods  during  the  day  when  the  company  does  not  use 
the  man,  consequently  you  do  your  day's  work  on  the  install- 
ment plan,  so  to  speak ;  you  do  part  of  it  in  the  morning  and  part 
in  the  evening,  and  it  may  cover  a  spread  of  thirteen  or  four- 
teen hours.  Now,  his  time  is  not  consecutive.  His  hours  are  not 
consecutive ;  but  on  any  suburban  run  or  any  other  kind  of  pas- 
senger run  where  the  man  goes  and  runs  five  hours  straight, 
why,  there  is  no  reason  in  the  world  why  his  five  hours  should 
not  be  a  day's  work  for  him. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  it  is  the  desire  of  the  Com- 
mittee, the  Conference  Committee  of  Managers^  here,  to  submit 
fairly  to  the  Board  of  Arbitrators  the  cost  to  the  railroad  com- 
panies of  the  application  of  your  various  articles.     Now,  in 
applying  this  Article  1  to  the  pay  rolls,  for  the  month  for  which 
this  presentation  was  made,  in  making  up  our  figures  should 
we  apply  Article  1  to  suburban  service,  or  should  we  not  do  so? 
Mr.  Cadle:     In  making  up  your  wage  scale  to  cover  your 
suburban  service,  if  you  find  that  you  have  runs  where  men  give 
you  a  good,  fair  day's  work,  without  any  intermission,  you 
should  make  a  rule  to  govern  that.    You  may  have  other  com- 
binations of  runs  where  the  man  is  assigned  to  three  or  four, 
covering  a  spread,  and  j^ou  have  got  to  make  rules  to  cover  that. 
Mr.  Sheean :     You  understand  my  last  question,  do  you  not, 
that  we  desire  to  submit  fairly  what  the  application  of  Article 
1  to  the  service,  as  it  existed,  would  be?    We  will  have  to  go 
back  to  the  time  slips  and  the  pay  rolls  for  a  particular  month,  to 


198 

do  that,  and  what  we  want  to  know,  and  what  we  want  to  do 
fairly,  is  to  ascertain,  if  we  can,  from  you,  whether,  in  making 
up  our  figures,  this  part  of  Article  1  which  I  have  just  read, 
should  or  should  not  be  applied  to  our  suburban  service,  just  as 
it  existed  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  sir;  I  cannot  answer  that  question,  because 
I  do  not  know  what  particular  suburban  service  you  refer  to. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  of  the  suburban  service  of  these  various 
roads  involved  in  the  arbitration.  We  can  only  send  o'ut  re- 
quests to  apply  it  to  the  pay  rolls. 

Mr.  Cadle :  They  are  paid  under  the  schedules  of  that  par- 
ticular road  and  you  may  find  a  differeijee  in  the  payment  and 
a  difference  in  the  working  rules. 

Mr,  Sheean:  Wliat  we  are  seeking  to  do  is  to  take  actual 
operations  for  the  month  of  October,  showing  the  time  on  duty 
and  what  they  were  paid  under  their  then  schedule.  We  would 
like  to  apply  to  that,  your  proposal,  to  those  actual  operating 
conditions,  as  they  were,  and  see  what,  if  any,  difference  your 
proposal  would  bring  about  in  the  pay.  Now  to  do  that  in  a 
way  that  will  be  fair,  we  would  like  to  know,  if  you  can  tell  us, 
whether,  in  sending  out  to  the  roads,  we  should  say  that  Article 
1  does  or  does  not  apply  to  suburban  service! 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  believe  I  ans-wered  that  question  once,  that  in 
our  proposition  it  was  the  intent  of  the  committee  to  advise  the 
Managers'  Committee  that  Article  1  did  not  apply  to  suburban 
service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  so  far  as  the  application  of  Article 
1  to  suburban  service  is  itoncerned,  we  may  assume  that  the 
suburban  service  which  is  provided  for  by  particular  schedule 
provisions,  whatever  they  may  be,  on  these  roads,  will  not  be 
affected  by  Article  1? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  I  don't  say  that.  I  don't  say  anything  of 
that  kind. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  that  is  what  we  are  trying  to 
ascertain,  both  for  our  own  benefit  and  for  the  benefit  of  the 
Board — to  what  extent,  if  at  all,  is  suburban  service  affected  by 
Article  1? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  consider  that  as  to  Article  1,  suburban  serv- 
ice is  one  of  the  questions  before  this  Board  to  arbitrate  and 
I  am  not  going  to  say  anything  here  that  would  indicate  that 


199 

that  was  set  aside,  that  all  we  were  contending  for  now,  was 
just  through  passenger  service  or  something  of  that  character. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  what  part  of  the  suburban  service  can 
you  suggest  in  any  general  way"?  I  mean,  for  the  purpose  that 
I  have  indicated  here?  How  can  we  fairly  apply  this  proposi- 
tion so  as  not  to  put  up  any  figures  that  may  seem  to  you  un- 
reasonable ?  I  want  to  send  out  instructions  and  ascertain  what 
your  proposal  means,  and  as  to  what  service  it  applies  to.  Can 
you  help  us  in  that  respect,  as  to  the  kind  of  instructions  we 
should  send  out? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  you  will  just  send  out  instructions,  that 
Article  1  applies  to  all  your  passenger  service,  you  will  not  make 
very  much  of  a  mistake. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Including  suburban? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  ^certainly. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  should  we,  in  assembling  the  figures 
here,  also  say  that  it  should  include  turn-arounds  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:    All  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  make  it  all. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  paragraph  2  of  Article  1 — ^have- 
you  the  article  itself  before  you? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Eefer  to  the  last  sentence  of  that  proposal: 

''Ten  miles  run  will  be  the  equivalent  of  one  hour's  service 
performed,  or  vice  versa. ' ' 

You  were  not  asked  anything  about  the  last  part,  ''or  vice 
versa."    Is  that  language  found  in  any  of  the  present  schedules? 

Mr.  Cadle :    It  is  used  in  some  of  them. 

Mr.  Sheean:    "Or  vice  versa?" 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  cannot  name,  can  you,  any  particular 
schedule  in  which  that  exact  language  of  the  last  sentence  is 
used? 

Mr.  Cadle :    No,  I  jean  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  find  in  any  schedule  that  entire  sen- 
tence of  that  article: 

"Ten  miles  run  will  be  the  equivalent  of  one  hour's  service 
performed,  or  vice  versa?" 


200 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  know  as  I  could.  I  do  not  remember 
n,ow  whether  it  applies  in  that  particular  rule  or  not,  but  I  have 
seen,  that  expression  in  some  of  the  schedules.  I  do  not  know 
whether  it  applies  in  this  case  or  not. 

'  Mr.  Sheean:  What  I  would  like  to  ascertain,  is,  whether 
or  not  under  that  last  sentence  it  is  the  intention  that  each  ten 
miles  run  is  to  be  considered  a  separate  unit,  and  each  six  min- 
utes also  a  separate  unit. 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  I  do  not  consider  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  it  i?  not  intended  that,  if,  for  in- 
stance, a  run  of  the  first  ninety  miles  was  made  in  six  hours,  and 
you  were  delayed  and  made  the  last  ten  miles  in  four  hours, 
you  jcould  take  the  ninety  miles  first  run  and  add  four  hours  to 
it  and  claim  a  total  of  thirteen  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle :     If  you  were  that  long  on  the  road, 

Mr.  Sheean:  No,  I  mean  under  this  rule,  if  you  ran  just 
one  hundred  miles  and  did  it  in  ten  hours,  but  you  ran  the  first 
ninety  miles  in  six  hours,  and  then  you  were  out  on  a  siding  for 
three  hours,  but  got,  in  making  the  total  time,  ten  hours  and 
the  total  miles  one  hundred,  could  you  charge  up  the  first  ninety 
miles  that  you  made  in  six  hours  as  nine  hours,  and  then  take 
the  last  four  hours  as  four  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  not  under  the  rule.  The  rule  is  on  a  ten 
mile  an  hour  basis. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Your  paragraph  2,  which  says:  ''Ten  miles 
run  will  be  the  equivalent  of  one  hour's  service  performed,  or 
vice  versa." 

Mr    fjidlo-     Vecj 

Mr.  Sheean :  All  that  I  was  seeking  to  ascertain  was, 
whether  or  not  it  was  intended  to  permit  a  combination  of  both 
time  and  miles  on  the  same  run,  that  is  whether  you  could  com- 
pute a  part  of  A^our  single  trip  on  the  mile  basis  and  another 
part  of  it  on  the  hourly  basis  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  As  I  understand,  the  minute  basis  for  com- 
puting the  time  would  apply  after  the  man  had  arrived  at  his 
terminal,  for  any  overtime  that  he  might  make. 
,.,  Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  so  that  I  can  follow  that,  supposing 
he  ran  ninety  miles  in  six  hours  and  then  he  was  on  a  siding 
three  hours,  and  got  in,  making  the  last  ten  miles  in  an  hour, 
so  that  he  got  into  the  tei*minal  ten  hours  after  he  started,  he 


201 

would  run  just  one  hundred  miles,  although  he  ran  the  first 
ninety  miles  in  six  hours.  Now,  would  this  rule  permit  him, 
under  the  words  "ten  miles  run  to  be  the  equivalent  of  one 
hour's  service  performed,  or  vice  versa,"  to  compute  the  last 
part  of  the  run  separately? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  do  not  understand  that  that  rule  would  apply 
at  all  on  a  run  of  that  kind,  where  he  started  and  ran  ninety 
miles  and  then  was  detained  three  hours,  and  ran  to  the  end  of 
his  terminal,  and  arrived  there  in  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  the  question. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Under  the  present  rules,  and  under  certain 
schedules,  and  in  this  proposition,  the  rule  would  not  apply, 
for  he  would  give  the  company  a  full  day 's  work  and  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  it  is  not  intended  by  this  ' '  vice  versa ' ' 
to  permit  a  combination  of  both,  to  take  a  part  of  the  trip  in 
hours  and  another  part  in  miles'? 

Mr.  Cadle:  As  I  understand  ''vice  versa" — the  meaning 
of  vice  versa,  or  the  term  used  in  there,  that  was  either  miles 
or  hours  is  where  it  should  apply,  and  it  don't  mean  anything 
— it  just  means  what  it  says  there,  ' '  or  vice  versa. ' '  You  might 
make  six  minutes  equal  to  a  mile,  or  you  might  make  one  mile 
equal  to  six  minutes.     That  is  vice  versa.     Either  way. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  would  make  no  difference,  Mr.  Cadle, 
either  in  a  run  of  120  miles  in  eight  hours  and  then  a  delay 
either  on  the  trip  or  at  either  end  of  the  trip  of  a  couple  of 
hours  1  That  is,  this  rule  would  not.  I  don 't  mean  to  confuse 
that  with  any  terminal  delay  rule  you  might  have,  but  you 
could  not  combine  hours  on  a  part  of  the  trip,  that  is,  that  each 
ten  miles  was  equivalent  to  each  six  minutes?  You  did  not 
intend  to  make  different  units  of  compensation  than  the  whole 
trip? 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  referring  to  this  part  of 
the  proposition  as  to  overtime: 

*^All  other  road  service.  Overtime  in  all  other  service  ex- 
cept passenger  and  switching  service  mil  be  computed  on  a 
basis  of  ten  miles  per  hour,  and  paid  for  at  the  rate  of  fifteen 
miles  per  hour,  at  rate  for  each  class  of  engine  used." 

Is  there  any  such  provision  in  the  schedule  of  any  railroad, 
either  in  the  United  States  or  Canada,  at  this  time? 


202 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  schedules  whereby  the  overtime  rate 
is  higher  than  the  daily  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Well,  is  there  any 

Mr.  Cadle:  But,  I  do  not  know  of  any  railroad  where  it 
says  it  shall  be  computed  on  a  fifteen  miles  an  hour  basis. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  that  rule,  Mr.  Cadle,  on  a  one  hun- 
dred mile  run  made  in  twelve  hours  and  a  one  hundred  and 
twenty  mile  hour  run  made  in  twelve  hours,  what  would  be  the 
compensation  of  those  two  men? 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  run  made 

Mr.  Sheean:  One  hundred  miles  in  twelve  hours  and  one 
hundred  and  twenty  miles  made  in  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Cadle:  In  one  particular  instance  the  man  would  re- 
ceive on  the  one  hundred  mile  run  in  twelve  hours,  on  the  ten 
mile  an  hour  basis,  he  would  receive  two  hours  overtime.  On 
the  hundred  and  twenty  mile  run  he  would  not  receive  any 
overtime.  You  allow  him  two  hours  more  for  a  one  hundred 
and  twenty  mile  run. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  overtime  being  paid  for  at  the  rate 
of  time  and  a  half,  the  practical  effect  of  this  rule  would  be, 
to  pay  that  man  who  ran  one  hundred  miles  in  twelve  hours 
more  money  than  you  paid  to  the  man  who  ran  one  hundred 
and  twenty  miles  in  twelve  hours'? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir;  that  is,  under  the  rules  that  we  are 
working  under  ayt  present. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Pardon  me? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Under  the  rules  that  we  are  working  under  at 
present  that  would  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  man  today  making  one  hundred  and 
twenty  miles  in  twelve  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  man  making  one  hundred  miles  in 
twelve  hours,  would  they  not  receive  identically  the  same 
monev  I 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  but  the  one  man  would  be  paid — one  man 
would  be  paid  two  hours — no,  he  would  not  be  paid  the  same 
money;  that  is,  he  would  not  be  paid  under  the  same  article  in 
the  schedule.  He  would  receive  a  day's  pay  for  his  hundred 
miles ;  he  would  receive  two  hours '  pay  for  the  two  hours  over- 
time. 


203 

Mr.  Sheean :     They  both  work  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  under  all  schedules  in  existence  today 
they  would  receive  just  the  same  money,  if  they  were  on  the 
same  engines,  wouldn't  they? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  on  your  proposition  for  time  and  a  half 
for  overtime,  the  man  who  ran  only  one  hundred  miles,  would 
be  paid  more  money  than  the  man  who  ran  one  hundred  and 
twenty  miles,  would  he  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  that  does  not  exist  in  any  schedule  to- 
day, does  it;  of  the  man  making  the  less  mileage  and  working 
the  same  length  of  time,  receiving  more  money  than  the  man 
who  has  delivered  the  larger  unit? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Your  schedule  provides  that  one  hundred  miles 
or  less,  ten  hours  or  less,  constitute  a  day's  work.  Hours  in 
excess  of  ten  hours  will  be  paid  as  overtime.  Now,  if  a  man 
runs  one  hundred  miles  and  he  is  twelve  hours  doing  it,  he 
gets  twelve  hours  pay  for  it.  He  gets  that  on  a  mileage  basis, 
because  his  mileage  was  just  exactly  one  hundred.  On  your 
one  hundred  miles  he  gave  twelve  hours,  not  ten ;  he  gave  twelve 
hours  for  a  day's  work.  Consequently  there  was  no  overtime 
in  that  last  example. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  supposing  we  take  it,  Mr.  Cadle,  just 
to  make  it  a  little  clearer,  take  one  hundred  and  fifty  miles, 
run  by  one  man  in  fifteen  hours  on  a  five-dollar  engine ;  another 
man  runs  the  same  engine,  or  an  engine  of  the  same  class  one 
hundred  miles,  he  is  also  out  fifteen  hours.  The  man  who  ran 
one  hundred  and  fifty  miles  in  fifteen  hours,  under  your  pro- 
posal, would  receive  fifteen  hours '  pay,  would  he  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  one  and  a  half  days,  or  receive  $7.50. 

Mr.  Cadle :    I  don 't  know  how  much  he  would  receive. 

Mr.  Sheean:     I  mean  under  this  proposal. 

Mr.  Cadle :  He  would  receive — I  know  what  he  would  re- 
ceive in  hours,  but  I  don't  know  what 

Mr.  Sheean:  He  would  be  paid  for  fifteen  hours,  wouldn't 
he? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 


204 

Mr.  Slieeau :  A  man  who  ran  one  hundred  miles  in  fifteen 
hours  would  be  paid  ten  hours  for  the  one  hundred  miles,  would 
he  not? 

Mr.  Cadle;     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  he  would  be  entitled  to  five  hours '  over- 
time wouldn't  he? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Which,  under  your  proposal,  would  be  com- 
puted at  time  and  a  half,  so  that  you  would  pay  the  latter  man 
seventeen  and  a  half  hours,  would  you  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  the  man  running  the  100  miles  would 
be  paid  more  than  the  man  who  ran  one  hundred  and  fifty  miles 
in  the  same  length  of  time! 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  I  do  not  understand  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Well,  Mr.  Cadle By  the  way,  Mr.  Cadle, 

if  because  of  your  illness  yesterday,  or  for  any  reason  you  feel 
tired  at  any  time,  do  not  hesitate  to  say  so. 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  go  ahead;  I  mil  try  and  stand  it  for  a 
while. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  you  do  at  any  time  feel  any  desire  to  sus- 
pend the  examination,  I  will  be  very  glad  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Cadle :     Thank  you,  sir ;  I  w^ill  be  glad  to  tell  you. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  just  want  to  make  sure  whether  I  am  right 
or  not  on  that,  Mr.  Cadle.  Now%  to  make  it  very  simple,  let  us 
send  out  two  men  on  the  same  class  of  engine,  and  they  are  each 
at  the  five  dollar  rate,  and  one  man  makes  one  hundred  and  fifty 
miles,  and  he  is  out  fifteen  hours ;  another  man  makes  one  hun- 
dred miles,  and  he  is  out  fifteen  hours.  Now,  let  you  and  I  figure 
out  how  much  those  two  men  will  be  paid?  Their  rate  is  five 
dollars. 

Mr.  Cadle:  One  man  would  be  paid  for  his  fifteen  hours. 
He  would  give  you  a  day  and  a  half. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  the  one  hundred  mile  man. 

Mr.  Cadle:     No. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  the  man  who  runs  one  hundred  and 
fifty  miles  in  fifteen  hours,  how  is  he  computed? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Whv,  the  man  that  runs 

Mr.  Sheean :     One  hundred  and  fifty  miles  in  fifteen  hours. 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  his  time  w^ould  be  computed  on  a  ten  miles 
an  hour  basis,  he  would  be  paid  fifteen  hours. 


205 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  the  man  who  runs  one  hundred  miles  in 
fifteen  hours,  he  would  be  paid  what? 

Mr.  Cadle :  He  would  be  paid  for  fifteen  hours '  work.  Five 
hours  would  be  overtime. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Five  hours  of  that  overtime,  under  this  rule, 
computed  at  time  and  a  half? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  he  would  be  paid  for  seventeen  hours 
and  a  half  work? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  man  earning  the  less  mileage,  the  effect 
of  this  rule  would  be,  to  pay  more  money  to  him  than  the  man 
who  ran  the  larger  mileage  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  how  that  would  figure  out,  be- 
cause I  cannot  figure  that  thing  out.  We  have  figures  and 
witnesses  to  put  on  with  all  those  figures.  I  did  not  work  on 
that  end  of  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  has  never,  Mr.  Cadle,  been  any — in 
the  use  of  this  interchangeable  time  converted  into  miles,  and 
miles  into  time,  you  have  never  had  occasion  to  apply  any  such 
rule  as  that  where  the  rate,  because  of  overtime,  was  a  differ- 
ent rate  than  the  rate  before  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  sir.  Where  they  paid  an  advance  and 
where  they  increased  the  whole  rate  in  overtime,  they  did  it 
by  money.  They  don't  do  it  in  that  way.  They  would  fix  the 
rate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  other  words,  Mr.  Cadle,  there  is  not  now, 
and  never  has  been,  in  the  transportation  of  the  United  States 
or  Canada,  the  payment  of  time  and  a  half  for  overtime,  has 
there? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  think  you  will  find  some  schedule 
where  you  will  find  its  equivalent. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  wish  jow  would  give  me  any  schedule  in 
which  there  is  the  equivalent  of  time  and  a  half  in  the  trans- 
portation service,  if  you  can,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  will  do  that:  You  know,  in  making  up  these 
schedules  they  will  go  to  work  and  allow  these  arbitraries  in 
rules. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  that  is  pretty  general,  is  it  not,  Mr. 
Cadle  ? 


206 

Mr.  Cadlc:     Yes. 

Mr.  Slieean:  In  the  way  of  arbitraries  and  rules  of  differ- 
ent schedules,  there  will  be  an  arbitrary  on  one  road,  a  different 
arbitrary  on  another  road,  and  they  all  enter  into  and  form  a 
part  of  the  compensation  of  the  men? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Slieean:  And  an  arbitrary  that  may  look  like  a  mere 
service  rule  may  in  fact  work  out  into  a  compensatory  rule? 
That  is  true,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  as  you  separate  and  segregate  service 
in  the  way  of  making  preparatory  time  won,  and  initial  ter- 
minal delay  won,  and  road  service  won,  and  final  terminal  allow- 
ance, by  so  much  as  you  add  any  arbitrary  to  different  parts  of 
the  service,  by  just  that  much,  compensation  is  affected  one 
wav  or  the  other? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  compensation  is  affected  and  a  man*s 
labor  is  affected  also.    That  is  what  you  make  the  rule  for. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  a  mere  comparison  of  the  rate  on 
any  particular  road,  Mr.  Cadle,  won't  enable  you  to  tell  whether 
the  rate  is  more  or  less  favorable  than  the  rate  of  another  rail- 
road, until  you  know  to  just  what  that  rate  applies? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  true,  is  it  not?  An  apparently  low 
rate  may  in  fact  be  more  remunerative  to  a  man  than  an  appar- 
ently high  rate? 

Mr.  Cadle:     In  building  up  his  month's  wages,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Yes,  in  building  up  his  month's  wages. 

Mr,  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  An  apparent!}^  low  rate,  if  covering  only 
strictly  road  service,  and  having  an  arbitrary  for  preparatory 
time,  another  arbitrary  for  initial,  and  another  arbitrary  for 
final  teiTuinal,  might  produce  much  greater  compensation  for 
a  man  than  a  higher  rate  which  covers  all  service  from  the 
time  he  reported  for  duty  until  he  was  finally  relieved? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  never  combined  those  rules  together  in  that 
way.    I  never  looked  at  them  in  that  way. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Oh,  no,  but 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  way  that  I  understand  those  arbitraries, 
those  rules,  and  the  rates  which  you  have  enumerated,  the  only 


207 

thing  that  the  engineers  have  tried  to  do  has  been  to  get  pay 
for  all  the  work  they  perform.  Now,  a  great  number  of  the 
railroads  provide  that  a  man  is  called  an  hour  or  a  half  hour 
before  leaving  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Yes. 

Mr.  Cadle:  He  has  got  to  report  at  the  roundhouse  from 
fifteen  minutes  to  one  hour  before  leaving  time  of  his  train,  by 
these  schedules.  Now,  he  takes  his  departure  and  begins  to  earn 
money  for  the  company  at  the  leaving  time  of  his  train,  not  at 
the  time  that  he  is  called,  not  at  the  time  that  he  is  preparing  his 
engine.  As  I  understand  it,  what  the  engineers  and  firemen  are 
contending  for  today  is  to  get  these  railroad  companies  to  pay 
them  for  all  the  work  that  they  now  perform.  That  is  my  under- 
standing of  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  a  rule  which  fairly  provided  that  an 
engineer  should  be  paid  for  all  time  from  the  time  he  reported 
for  duty  until  he  was  finally  relieved — I  say  a  rule  which  fairly 
paid  him  for  all  of  that  time,  understand 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  kind  of  a  rule  would  be  a  fair  rule  in 
your  judgment? 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  Avould  be,  providing  you  will  pay  the  man 
for  that  hour  or  that  thirty  minutes  in  money.  But  if  you  will 
go  to  work  and  make  a  schedule  and  say  to  him,  "Here,  we  will 
give  you  one  hour  for  preparing  your  engine, ' '  and  then  at  the 
end  of  the  rule  if  you  put  an  article  or  a  sentence  on  there  that 
will  say  that  he  does  not  get  it,  then  it  is  only  imaginary. 

Now,  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  one  more  thing  right 
on  this  point.  If  you  do  not  do  that,  then  a  man  will  go  out  on 
that  ten-mile  an  hour  basis,  and  he  will  absorb  that  hour  pro- 
vided he  can  get  over  the  road  within  the  prescribed  length  of 
time.  It  is  an  absolutely  fair  rule  in  my  mind,  when  you  will 
go  to  work  and  agree  to  pay  a  man  for  the  time  he  is  preparing 
Ms  engine.  If  I  am  one  full  hour  preparing  my  engine,  and  you 
agree  to  pay  me  for  that  hour,  I  want  you  to  pay  me  for  that 
hour,  that  hour  not  to  become  any  part  of  my  day. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  that  hour  will  be  in  addition  to  the 
day? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  will  guarantee  you  under  the  schedules  that 
that  hour  is  set  aside.    I  have  given  you  sixty  minutes.    That 


208 

hour  is  set  aside,  and  that  hour  is  paid  for  for  preparing  the 
engines.  Now,  from  the  time  yon  take  your  departure  at  the  end 
of  that  hour,  or  take  your  departure  over  the  road,  from  that 
period  until  the  end  of  the  road  I  guarantee  you  ten  hours  or 
one  hundred  miles  of  my  work.  I  want  it  distinctly  understood 
that  the  reason  and  the  only  reason  why  the  engineers  and  fire- 
men contend  for  that  one  hour  preparatory  time  proposition,  or 
thirty  minutes,  is  that  you  shall  pay  for  that,  and  that  is  no  part 
of  the  man's  day's  work,  that  he  will  guarantee  to  you  from  the 
be^nning  of  Ms  trip  to  the  end  of  his  run,  one  hundred  miles  or 
less,  or  ten  hours  or  less. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  there  would  always  be,  if  that  were 
done,  that  additional  hour.  If  he  did  anything  in  the  way  of 
preparatory  work  there  would  be  at  least  ten  hours  plus  the  one 
hour,  and  the  comj^any  would  have  to  pay  on  every  day  at  least 
eleven  hours  1 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Irrespective  of  the  miles  run  or  the  time  on 
duty? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  under  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean :    At  least  eleven  hours  I 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Is  there  any  schedule  in  the  United  States  or 
Canada  now  so  far  as  you  know  that  guarantees  the  payment  of 
eleven  hours  ? 

You  do  not  guarantee  eleven  hours. 
Oh,  no,  but  it  guarantees  payment  for  eleven 


Mr. 

Cadle: 

Mr. 

Sheean 

ours. 

Mr. 

Cadle : 

There  are  a  great  many  railroads  that  pay 
their  engineers  the  thirty  minutes'  preparatory  time,  or  what- 
ever the  preparatory  time  is,  and  it  is  no  part  of  their  trip. 

Mr.  Sheean:     How  manv? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Eight  I  think — six  or  eight. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Outside  of  the  Canadian  Northern  and  the 
Canadian  Pacific,  I  wish  you  would  tell  us  what  the  others  are 
that  guarantee  that,  irrespective  of  the  trip? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  Baltimore  &  Ohio  Chicago  Tenninal ;  the 
Canadian  Northern ;  the  Canadian  Pacific ;  the  Chicago  Junction 
Eailroad.    Shall  I  read  the  hours,  too,  so  that  you  will  get  them? 

Mr.  Sheean:    Yes. 


209 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  will  start  over  again.  The  Baltimore  &  Ohio 
Chicago  Terminal  allows  thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     On  how  many  engines? 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  allow  it  from  a  certain  period,  I  pre- 
sume, on  five  or  six. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Five  engines,  is  it  not,  in  the  schedule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle;     I  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is  not  allowed  as  to  any  other  engines, 
is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle :     If  you  will  wait  I  will  show  you  down  below. 

The  Canadian  Pacific,  thirty  minutes. 

The  Canadian  Pacific,  Western  Lines,  thirty  minutes. 

The  Chicago  Junction  Railroad,  fifteen  minutes. 

The  Duluth  &  Iron  Range,  thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Stone :     That  is  not  in  there. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Is  that  in  this  movement? 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  but  they  are  western  lines. 

The  Duluth,  Missabe  &  Northern  Railway,  thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Is  that  in  this  movement  ? 

Mr.  Stone :     No,  it  is  not  in  the  movement. 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  do  not  know.  They  are  western  railroads, 
though,  and  come  in  this  western  district. 

The  Duluth,  South  Shore  &  Atlantic,  thirty  minutes. 

The  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  Puget  Soimd,  thirty  minutes. 

That  makes  eight  railroads. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Is  that  included  in  road  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  Puget  Sound? 

Mr.  Cadle :  As  I  understand  you,  we  are  talking  now  about 
preparatory  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Paid  arbitrarily. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Is  this  paid  arbitrarily? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Irrespective  of  time  or  miles? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Not  included  in  road  time? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  it  is  paid  for  preparing  your  engines  at 
the  roundhouse  or  at  the  shop. 


210 

Mr.  Sheean :  On  the  Dulutli,  South  Shore  &  Atlantic,  that 
is  freight  only,  is  it  not,  or  do  you  remember  about  that? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  I  do  not  remember  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :     We  can  ascertain  from  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Cadle :     You  had  better  make  some  note  of  those  things. 

Mr.  Stone :     We  will  get  it  into  the  record. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Cadle,  in  the  question  I  asked  you  a  mo- 
ment ago,  I  did  not  intend  to  enter  into  any  discussion  as  to 
division  of  particular  parts  of  the  service,  but  you  think  a  rule 
which  fairly  compensated  the  engineer  and  the  fireman  from  the 
time  they  reported  for  duty  or  were  required  to  report  for  duty 
until  they  were  finally  relieved,  would  be  a  fair  rule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  is  a  fair  rule  if  you  pay  a  man  for  all  the 
work  he  does  for  you. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  many  parts  of  this  western  country,  Mr. 
Cadle,  I  suppose  the  service  performed  by  the  engineer  and  by 
the  fireman,  is  from  the  time  that  he  takes  the  engine  at  the 
roundhouse  until  he  returns  it  to  the  designated  track  at  the 
roundhouse? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  is  the  general  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  the  general  practice? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  It  is  not  the  general  practice  that  an  engineer 
leaves  his  engine  or  ends  his  responsibility  at  any  outer  switch 
or  at  a  depot? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Not  unless  the  rule  provides  that  he  is  relieved 
by  a  hostler. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that  is  not  a  general  rule,  universally 
applicable  on  any  railroad,  or  on  any  large  number  of  these 
railroads  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Not  any  particular  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  it  a  rule  of  general  application  on  any 
large  number  of  roads  in  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  a  number  of  roads  where  they  re- 
lieve their  engineers  at  the  station. 

Mr.  Sheean:     On  some  passenger  trains? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  that  ordinarily  cover  relief  on  any 
branch  lines,  on  those  which  have  a  provision  as  to  relieving  on 
passenger  trains  by  hostlers? 


211 

Mr.  Cadle :  Oh,  they  relieve  them  all  when  they  'Come  into 
the  station. 

Mr.  Sheean:     On  all  passenger  trains? 

Mr.  Cadle :  That  is  where  they  have  a  rule  of  that  kind, 
that  they  will  relieve  the  passenger  engineer  at  the  station.  A 
man  might  come  in  off  a  branch  line  and  he  would  be  relieved 
by  a  hostler  just  the  same  as  a  man  who  came  off  from  a  through 
passenger  run. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  I  was  seeking  was  whether  or  not  there 
was  any  schedule  that  provided  for  the  universal  relief  of  all 
passenger  engineers. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Wliat  schedule  is  that! 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  Missouri  Pacific. 

Mr.  Sheean :     For  all  passenger  engineers  and  on  all  trains  1 

Mr.  Cadle :     And  all  freight  engineers. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  all  freight  engineers? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     And  where  are  the  freight  engineers  relieved? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  freight  engineers  are  relieved  at  desig- 
nated tracks,  the  company  designate  the  tracks  where  they  want 
their  engines,  where  the  engineer  will  find  his  engine.  If  you 
are  called  at  one  o'clock  at  night  you  always  know  where  to 
go  and  find  your  engine  that  you  are  called  for. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  may  be  at  the  roundhouse  tracks? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  but  the  company  designates  those  tracks 
where  we  are  supposed  to  find  those  engines. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  Missouri  Pacific  Schedule  apparently 
has  certain  excepted  runs  referred  to.  Do  I  understand  you 
that  every  passenger  train  that  comes  in  on  the  Missouri  Pa- 
cific, that  on  every  passenger  train  operated  the  engineer  is 
relieved  upon  arrival  at  station? 

Mr.  Cadle:  He  is  relieved  or  he  is  paid  under  the  agree- 
ment. 

Mr.  Sheean:     On  every  passenger  train  on  that  system? 

Mr.  Cadle :  On  every  passenger  train  he  is  relieved,  or  if 
they  comply  with  their  schedule  he  is  paid  for  handling  that 
engine  between  the  train  and  the  roundhouse  or  the  relieving 
point. 


212 

Mr.  Sheoan:     Then  there  are  no  excepted  runs? 

Mr.  Cadle ;  Not  under  the  agreement  which  they  have  with 
the  Missouri  Pacific. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  turning  to  the  pusher,  helper, 
mine  run,  wreck,  belt  line,  transfer  and  other  unclassified 
service 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  What  is  the  distinction  between  belt  line  and 
transfer  service?  What  is  contemplated  by  this  request?  Or 
can  you  define  a  belt  line? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  cannot  answer  what  is  the  difference  between 
them;  but  I  presume  the  reason  why  the  language  is  used  is 
that  there  are  a  great  many  railroads  that  have  outside  lines 
built  around  cities,  and  they  call  them  belt  lines.  The  name 
'M3elt  line"  originates  right  from  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  the  transfer  service,  does  this  rule  include 
any  transfer  from  one  railroad  to  another? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  where  there  are  regularly  assigned  crews 
to  transfer  ser\dce  for  that  class  of  work. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Is  it  intended  or  limited  to  regularly  assigned 
transfer  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Any  regularly  assigned.  You  might  run  a 
transfer  today  and  you  might  not  run  it  for  a  week,  but  if  you 
did  run  it  today,  or  ran  it  once,  we  expect  that  man  to  be  paid 
through  freight  rates  under  that  article. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Supposing  here  in  Chicago,  for  instance, 
where  the  tracks  of  the  different  companies  are  close  together, 
if  a  switching  crew  sets  over  a  cut  of  cars  a  few  hundred  feet 
or  a  few  hundred  vards  to  another  railroad,  is  that  a  transfer 
under  this  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  I  have  seen  maps  drawn  where  men  did 
not  go  out  to  take  switch  engines.  They  were  assigned  for  a 
certain  limit  right  in  the  yard,  where  the  man  did  not  go  outside 
of  his  lead,  to  push  cars  over  onto  connecting  lines  of  railroad. 
I  could  not  see  any  difference,  whether  he  pushed  those  cars 
over  in  there,  or  whether  he  pushed  them  on  another  track. 

In  such  cases  as  that  the  engineers  have  not  made  any 
claim,  as  I  understand,  for  transfer  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:    It  is  quite  essential,  is  it  not,  in  any  rule  of 


213 

general  application,  that  there  should  be  some  definition  of  just 
what  is  transfer  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  order  to  operate  under  any  such  rule,  you 
must  have  a  specific  definition  of  what  is  transfer  service.  You 
agree  to  that,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  is  there  any  generally  understood  or 
generally  recognized  distance  that  determines  whether  it  is  a 
switch  movement  or  a  transfer  movement? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Under  this  request  here,  would  the  Ft.  Worth 
Belt  Railway  pay  through  freight  rates?  That  is  a  belt  line, 
and  one  of  the  parties  to  this  movement,  I  think. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  know  as  I  stated  that  they  paid  a 
through  freight  rate.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that  belt 
line  or  what  it  is  paying. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  understand  from  Mr.  Stone  that  the  fire- 
men represented  by  Mr.  Cadle  have  made  no  investigation  of 
that.  Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  does  the  "all  other  unclassified  service" 
referred  to  in  that  rule,  pertain  to  any  specific  class  of  service — 
is  there  any  specific  class  of  service  that  you  have  in  mind  as 
falling  under  that  language  "all  other  unclassified  service."? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Very  frequently  on  railroads  the  engineers 
are  put  to  work  on  different  classes  of  work  not  covered  by  any 
specific  rule  in  the  agreement,  and  as  I  understand  it,  for  all 
other  unclassified  service,  that  is  not  covered  by  the  agreement, 
it  shall  take  that  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  after  all  your  experience  as  to  the  dif- 
ferent kinds  and  classes  and  possibilities  of  work  that  an  engi- 
neer may  be  called  upon  to  do,  do  you  not  think  there  should  be 
specifically  mentioned  here  each  and  all  of  the  things  to  which 
the  through  freight  rates  shall  apply? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  think  if  we  get  what  we  have  already  asked 
for  here 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  you  could  strike  out  the  ' '  all  other  un- 
classified service?" 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:    You  are  willing  to  waive  that  now? 

Mr.  Nagel :  You  prefer  the  comprehensive  expression,  do 
you? 


214 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  work  trains  vary  on  different 
lines,  do  they  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Take,  for  instance,  now,  a  road  that  pays  in 
work  train  service,  for  all  calendar  days,  Sundays  included,  and 
pays  mileage  out  to  the  scene  of  the  work,  and  then  the  hours 
at  the  work,  was  it  the  purpose  and  intention  of  this  presenta- 
tion here  that  you  should  retain  all  of  those  work  train  rules 
on  the  particular  roads  w^hich  paid  for  Sunday,  and  for  mileage 
to  the  work,  and  hours  there,  and  then  apply  to  those  favorable 
rules  the  rate  here  requested? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  believe  that  is  the  agreement,  that  anything 
you  have  got  which  is  better,  shall  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  without  going  into  the  details  of  that, 
there  is  a  very  wide  spread  upon  the  work  train  rules,  is  there 
not? 

Mr.  Cadle;    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  practical  effect  of  applying  this 
request  for  through  freight  rates  to  all  of  these  work  train  rules, 
would  be  to  make  a  very  wide  spread  in  the  work  train  service 
between  those  which  now  have  favorable  work  train  rules  and 
those  which  have  unfavorable  work  train  rules? 

Mr.  Cadle :  As  I  understand  it,  the  engineers  and  firemen 
have  made  a  request  for  through  freight  rates  of  pay,  and  if 
that  request  was  conceded  by  the  railroads,  then  you  would 
have  a  standard  rule  for  paying  men  in  work  train  service. 

Mr.  Sheean :    A  standard  rule  or  a  standard  rate  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :    A  standard  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  standard  rate  thus  obtained  would 
apply,  however,  to  varying  work  train  rules,  work  train  rules, 
would  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Would  you  apply  that  standard  rate,  for 
instance,  to  a  rule  of  one  road  which  gave  pay  for  all  calendar 
days,  and  gave  mileage  out  to  the  scene  of  the  work,  plus  hours 
out  there,  and  would  you  apply  the  same  rates  to  another  work 
train  rule  which  paid  the  men  solely  on  an  hour  basis  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  There  are  just  those  differences,  are  there 
not? 


215 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Slieean :     Some  railroads  now  put  the  work  train  serv- 
ice entirely  on  an  hourly  basis? 
Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Others  go  to  the  other  extreme  and  pay  for 
every  calendar  day,  Sundays  included,  even  though  they  do  not 
work  on  Sundays. 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  is  a  provision  in  the  rule. 
Mr.  Sheean;    What  is  it? 
Mr.  Cadle:     There  is  a  provision. 
Mr.  Sheean:    I  say,  what  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  is  a  provision  that  if  they  are  not  re- 
leased on  Sunday,  that  if  they  are  not  permitted  to  go  home, 
they  shall  be  paid,  if  they  are  kept  out  there. 

Mr.  Sheean:    But  do  not  some  of  them  go  to  the  extent 
even  of  paying  them  Sundays  anyhow?    I  am  not  talking  about 
any  general  rule,  but  is  there  not  some  one  road  which  even  pays 
for  every  calendar  day,  Sundays  included? 
Mr.  Cadle :    There  may  be. 

Mr.  Sheean:     But  they  do  not  work  them  Sundays? 
Mr.  Cadle:    No. 

Mr.  Sheean :    And  then  in  addition  to  that  some  roads  paj*^ 
them  mileage  out  each  day,  added  on  to  their  hours  on  duty?    " 
Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  miles  usually  on  a  work  train  taking 
a  crowd  of  men  out  are  pretty  rapidly  made,  and  the  compensa- 
tion on  that  run  is  earned  pretty  rapidly. 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  that  is  what  they  have  got  the  rule  for. 
Mr.  Sheean:    Applying  this  standard  rate  you  spoke  of  to 
a  rule  of  that  sort  would  produce  a  very  different  result  on  that 
road  from  applying  the  so-called  standard  rate  to  a  company 
which  simply  paid  on  an  hourly  basis,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  would  increase  just  the  difference  between 
what  they  are  getting  now  and  what  they  would  get  under  the 
through  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Where  you  have  an  extremely  liberal  rule, 
such  as  paying  for  all  calendar  days,  or  combining  both  time 
and  miles  in  a  single  day,  ordinarily  the  rate  paid  by  that  road 
is  not  as  high  per  day — the  nominal  rate  is  not  as  great — as 


216 

the  rate  imid  bv  suiiie  other  road  which  has  an  liourlv  basis? 
That  is  ordinarily  true,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Well,  in  some  instances,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  jiart  of  the  roads  have  compensated 
tlieir  men  by  liberal  rules  and  others  by  liberal  rates?  Perhaps 
you  do  not  want  to  adopt,  and  I  do  not  ask  you  to  adopt  the 
word  "liberal";  but  part  of  the  roads  have  compensated  their 
men  by  rules  and  others  have  compensated  them  by  rates. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  think  your  statement  in  that  question  is 
wrong.  When  the  engineers'  committee  are  making  a  schedule 
to  tlieir  railroad  company,  they  wall  get  a  scliedule  that  will  be 
as  favorable  to  them  as  possible,  and  it  all  depends  on  the 
generosity  of  the  man  that  they  are  dealing  with.  That  is 
w^hat  has  got  a  great  many  of  these  rules  into  the  schedules. 

One  general  manager  may  have  a  whole  lot  of  work  train 
service  that  he  wants  performed,  and  he  wants  to  have  good 
first  class  men  on  that  job,  and  he  wants  to  fix  a  good  rate  of 
pay  for  them.  Now%  be  may  fix  it  in  what  managers  call  puni- 
tive allowances,  or  he  may  give  it  to  them  in  the  daily  rate; 
but  I  wdll  assure  jou  of  one  thing,  that  the  engineers'  commit- 
tee, w^ien  they  w^ent  in,  got  all  they  could  get. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Always? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  and  that  makes  those  differences. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  now,  they  propose  in  this  submission 
to  retain  whatever  they  have  got  in  a  favorable  work  train  rule, 
and  apply  to  it  whatever  they  can  get  in  a  standard  rate? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  When  you  were  asked  about  this  mixed  train 
service  I  think  you  said  that  a  mixed  train  is  one  that  hauls 
freight  and  passengers,  or  passengers  and  freight,  and  the  pur- 
pose of  this  proposition  was  to  require  way  freight  trains  to 
be  paid. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  under  this  rule  as  proposed,  was  it  the 
intention  to  have  applied  to  a  run  the  taking,  for  instance,  of  a 
car  of  stock  to  make  a  branch  connection,  where  it  was  at- 
taclied  to  a  branch  line  passenger  train? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  the  rule  of  that  railroad  that  requires  that 
service  states  in  the  schedule  that  if  he  hauls  one  or  more 
freight  cars  in  a  passenger  train,  he  shall  be  paid  freight  rates 


217 

for  it,  the  rule  would  apply.  They  have  such  rules  in  their 
schedules. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  am  talking  now  about  your  Article  3,  in 
which  you  define  local  trains  as  ''Way  freight  or  mixed  trains 
whose  work  is  the  loading  or  unloading  of  freight  or  doing 
station  switching  en  route";  and  the  other  part  of  the  rule  is 
that  "Through  or  irregular  freight  trains  doing  work  such  as 
loading  or  unloading  freight,  stock  or  company  material,  switch- 
ing at  stations,  spurs,  mines,  mills,  or  required  to  pick  up  or 
set  out  cars,  unless  cars  to  be  picked  up  are  first  out,  or  cars 
to  be  set  out  are  switched  together  at  terminals,  or  doing  any 
other  similar  work,  shall  be  paid  for  same  at  overtime  rates  in 
addition  to  time  or  mileage  made  on  the  trip. ' ' 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  was  it  the  purpose  or  intention  to  make 
it  a  mixed  train  in  case  you  attach  a  single  car  of  stock  to  a 
passenger  train?  Was  it  the  intention  to  convert  that  into  a 
mixed  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  would  be  a  mixed  train,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  On  that  day,  although  there  were  no  more 
than  the  customary  passenger  stops  made? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  it  was  the  intention  to  require  way 
freight  rates  to  be  paid  on  that  particular  day,  although  it  was 
ordinarilj'-  a  passenger  run? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  this  rule,  as  it  is  worded  here,  also 
cover  the  handling — as  I  understand  is  sometimes  done  here 
in  the  Northwest — of  these  cars  of  fish  coming  from  the  Colum- 
bia River,  refrigerator  cars  put  into  a  fast  passenger  train? 
Would  they  have  to  pay  freight  rates  on  that? 

Mr.  Cadle :     They  would  under  the  rule,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  these  trans-continental  silk  trains,  where 
a  through  car  is  put  into  a  passenger  train;  that  expedited 
movement  would  also  require  a  freight  rate  to  be  paid,  under 
your  submission  here,  would  it? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Not  if  the  rules  of  the  certain  company 

Mr.  Sheean:     No,  I  am  talking  about  your  proposition. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  rules  on  some  of  these  railroads 
that  govern  just  such  movement  as  that. 


218 

Mr.  Sheeaii:  If  tliis  request  was  granted,  would  it  abro- 
gate those  rules? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  can  only  give  you  the  same  answer  that  I 
did  before,  that  if  those  rules  were  better  than  what  was  award- 
ed, they  would  be  retained,  under  the  agreement,  as  I  under- 
stand. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  would  not  expect  to  find  anything  better 
in  those  rules  than  to  charge  through  freight  rates  on  a  silk 
train,  would  you? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Well,  no. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  if  this  was  awarded,  and  it  is  permit- 
ted to  claim  through  freight  rates  on  a  passenger  train  which 
had  a  car  of  silk  on  it,  this  rule  would  supersede  the  other, 
would  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  there  are  railroads  now  that  have  pro- 
visions made  in  their  rules  for  running  empty  equipment  or 
silk  trains  or  anything  like  that  on  passenger  train  schedules, 
that  they  shall  be  paid  freight  rates  for  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Tt  is  not  unusual,  is  it,  to  attach  to  some  of 
these  passenger  trains  a  car  of  horses?  That  is  covered  in  some 
schedules  now,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  horses  loaded  in  express  cars. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  either  express  cars  or  in  these  stable 
cars. 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  there  are  a  great  many  of  those. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Those  are  carried  in  passenger  trains  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Quite  often? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  this  article  supersedes  that?  That  is, 
it  makes  the  through  rate  applicable  to  passenger  trains  in 
which  such  cars  are  handled? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     This  also  applies  to  branch  lines? 

Mr.  Cadle:     There  do  not  appear  to  be  any  exceptions. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  even  on  branch  line  movements,  if 
there  is  a  single  freight  car  attached  to  what  is  ordinarily  a 
passenger  train,  there  will  have  to  be  a  freight  rate  paid  for 
that  trip? 

Mr.  Cadle :     On  a  good  many  branch  lines  the  mixed  train 


219 

is  the  only  train  you  have  got  on  that  branch,  and  as  a  gen- 
eral proposition  all  of  those  trains  are  now  paid  either  on  a 
through  freight  rate  or  a  local  rate.  They  pay  a  higher  rate  than 
they  do  on  passenger  runs. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Or  an  especially  agreed  rate. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  would  you  say  is  the  percentage  in 
this  western  territory  that  is  really  branch  linef  Have  you 
any  idea  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  do  not  know,  sir.     I  did  not  work  that  up. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  a  very  large  part  in  western  territory 
is  branch  line? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  I  mil  not  agree  to  that.  There  is  a  great 
deal  of  territory  in  the  western  country  that  they  call  branch 
lines,  that  are  really  main  lines,  in  my  view  of  the  matter. 

Mr.  Sheean :  There  are  some  parts,  whether  it  be  main  or 
branch  line,  in  which  the  operation  is  this  single  train  a  day 
that  you  speak  of,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  others  where  they  run  more  than 
a  single  train. 

Mr.  Sheean:     There  are  some  of  the  class  you  spoke  of? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  some  of  that  class  you  spoke  of,  where 
there  is  only  one  train  a  day,  make  actually  less  than  one  hun- 
dred miles  entire  run,  do  they  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  some  of  them. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Nearly  all  of  those  that  are  in  the  single  train 
a  day  class,  would  make  less  than  one  hundred  miles,  would 
they  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Not  all  of  them. 

Mr.  Sheean :     No,  no,  I  said  a  great  many  of  them. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Well,  probably,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  where  there  is  that  single  train  there 
on  that  branch  line,  the  engine  at  the  end  of  the  run  is  ordinarily 
turned  over  to  some  one  in  charge  of  the  roundliouse  if  there 
is  one  there,  a  watch  man? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Generally  at  one  end  of  the  road. 

Mr.  Sheean:    At  one  end  of  the  road?  '.. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yps. 

Mr.  Sheean :     On  those  branch  lines  that  you  spoke  of  where 

..) 


220 

they  run  a  single  train  a  day,  there  is  not  any  exception  as  to 
the  prej^aratory  time  allowance,  or  the  initial  or  final  terminal 
delay? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

JMr.  Sheean:  And  if  the  work  from  the  time  the  engine 
was  taken  cliarge  of  in  the  morning  until  it  was  delivered  at  the 
roundliouso  back  in  the  evening  on  that  branch  line,  was  done 
by  an  engineer,  even  though  he  did  it  in  six  hours — a  total 
spread  of  six  hours — there  would  be  no  way  to  avoid  paying  the 
ten  hours  for  the  road,  and  preparatoiy  time,  and  whatever 
delay  there  was,  both  initial  and  final,  if  there  was  any  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  there  was  any,  and  they  had  no  other  rule, 
yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  mean  under  your  proposal  all  those  things 
will  be  put  into  operation  in  the  schedule  unless  it  was  more 
favorable  than  giving  you  all  of  those  things,  would  they  not! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  do  not  know  of  any  schedule  on 
these  single  train  branch  line  roads,  at  this  time,  that  would  give 
the  engineer  and  fireman  100  miles  for  the  road  trip,  plus  pre- 
paratory time,  plus  initial  and  final  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Do  you  say  I  do  not  know  of  any  railroad  that 
is  paying  that  now? 

Mr.  Sheean :  On  the  single  train  branch  line  runs,  you  do 
not  know  of  anything  better  than  that? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  about  the  article  in  the  request 
here  for  a  mountain  differential,  have  you  that  definitely  before 
you? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  I  followed  you  on  your  statement,  the 
roads  which  operate  in  the  mountains  very  largely  have  set  out 
in  their  schedule  certain  specified  districts  or  certain  designated 
runs  to  which  there  shall  be  applicable  a  different  rate  than  in 
other  territories? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is  found  in  practically  all  of  the  sched- 
ules that  operate  in  mountain  territory?  They  have  some  pro- 
vision pertaining  to  mountain  operation? 

Mr.  Cadle:  As  a  general  proposition  they  have  all  got  a 
differential. 


221 

Mr.  Slieean :  But  some  of  them  specify  it  in  a  certain  num- 
ber of  constructive  miles  allowed  on  particular  runs? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Others  set  out  a  certain  district  as  being 
mountain  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     And  particular  rates  applicable  there  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  some  just  make  a  difference  in  the  rate 
when  in  the  mountain  territory  which  is  described  in  the  separate 
schedules? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  there  is  not  in  any  schedule  except  the 
Great  Northern,  any  provision  which  fixes  a  mountain  grade  at 
1.8  per  cent,  or  which  refers  in  any  way  to  the  payment  of  a 
differential  on  a  grade  of  1.8  per  cent  or  over,  is  there  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  think  you  will  find  one  rule  which  provides 
that  where  a  certain  grade  is  to  be  cut  down,  if  it  is  cut  down  to 
less  than  one  per  cent,  the  mountain  rate  shall  not  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean :    What  schedule  is  that,  if  you  know  1 

Mr.  Cadle :     The  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  Puget  Sound. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Does  that  schedule  make  any  provision  for  the. 
paying  of  a  differential  on  all  grades  where  there  is  a  1.8  per 
cent  or  over? 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  specify  the  district  or  the  grade  where 
they  get  their  six  or  twelve  miles. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Generally  speaking,  is  it  not  true  that  each 
of  these  roads  has  designated  by  specific  schedule  provision, 
just  the  point  or  points  at  which  the  payment  of  a  differential 
shall  be  made? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that  differential  varies  on  the  same  road 
as  between  different  points,  does  it  not,  as  to  how  many  con- 
structive miles  will  be  allowed  here  and  how  many  constructive 
miles  there? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :    It  varies  in  different  schedules  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Do  you  know  of  any  provision,  in  any  sched- 


222 

ule,  in  any  mountain  territory,  east  or  west,  United  States  or 
Canada,  that  on  all  divisions  where  the  grade  is  1.8  or  over,  an 
increase  of  ten  per  cent  will  be  paid  over  valley  rates? 

Mr.  Cadle:     All?    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  is  something  entirely  new  in  schedule 
making,  any  such  provision  as  this?  That  is,  so  far  as  it  has 
been — as  you  can  find  in  any  schedule,  east  or  west  or  north  or 
south  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes.    Outside  of  that  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  that  Great  Northern,  Mr.  Cadle,  has  a 
specific  provision,  has  it  not,  that  'Hhis  shall  apply  to  all  grades 
of  1.8  or  greater,  but  only  for  the  actual  distance  covered  by 
such  grades?" 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  the  specific  provision  of  the  Great 
Northern  schedule,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  but  the  difference  between  their  schedule 
and  a  great  many  of  those  others,  where  there  is  an  arbitrary 
allowed,  they  state  1.8,  while  the  others  give  a  certain  mileage, 
certain  number  of  miles,  or  a  certain  number  of  hours,  a  cer- 
tain— that  is,  the  difference  between  the  two.  There  is  one  sched- 
ule that  we  have  got  that  has  got  1.8  mentioned  in  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  not  as  fixing  a  differential  on  that  divi- 
sion? 

Mr.  Cadle:    In  the  rates,  you  mean? 

Mr.  Sheean :     A  differential  in  the  rates. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  that  does  not  in  that  schedule  fix  the 
rates  for  the  division  on  which  the  1.8  gradient  is  found,  does  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  they  specify. 

Mr.  Sheean:  For  the  division.  Specify  the  rate  for  the 
division,  because  on  that  division  there  is  a  grade  of  1.8? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Of  that  particular  place  where  it  applies.  They 
enumerate — don't  they  enumerate  in  there  where  this  rate  shall 
apply? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  what  I  would  like  to  get  at,  is, 
whether  or  not  there  is  in  any  schedule  a  provision  the  same 
as  in  this  proposal,  that  on  all  divisions  where  the  grade  is  1.8 
or  over,  that  there  shall  be  an  increase  of  ten  per  cent? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  answered  you,  no. 


223 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  there  was  some  discussion 
the  other  day  between  you  and  Mr.  Burgess  with  reference  to 
the  payment  of  100  miles  on  a  92  mile  run  between  Winslow 
and  Williams.  The  schedule  of  that  railroad,  the  Atchison,  To- 
peka  &  Santa  Fe — Coast  Lines — to  which  you  referred  the  other 
day,  Article  38  of  the  schedule,  the  language  of  that  Article  38, 
Mr.  Cadle,  is : 

'^ Constructive  mileage  shall  be  allowed  as  follows:  Between 
Winslow  and  Williams,  100  miles  in  both  directions." 

That  is  the  language,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  actual  distance  there  is  92  miles,  is  it 
not? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  I  understand  you,  Mr.  Cadle,  you  first 
thought  that  under  this  provision  there  was  a  payment  of  100 
miles  for  the  92  miles  run,  and  later  suggested  that  there  was 
paid  for  this  run  108  miles  instead  of  the  100  miles  which  the 
schedule  called  for.  I  call  your  attention  or  hand  you,  Mr.  Cadle, 
a  copy  of  a  telegram  and  copy  of  reply  which  we  have  received 
from  the  operating  officials  of  that  road  with  reference  to  the 
actual  payment  made  there,  and  would  like  to  inquire  whether 
or  not  you  have  any  actual  personal  knowledge  of  a  departure 
from  the  schedule  provision  of  paying  108  miles  instead  of  the 
100  miles  which  the  schedule  calls  for. 

Mr.  Cadle :  As  I  understand  this  schedule,  I  stated  it  just 
exactly  as  I  understand  it,  that,  if  a  man  was  on  a  97  mile  run, 
he  was  allowed  constructive  mileage,  and  if  he  earned  overtime 
that  he  would  be  paid  the  overtime  over  the  hundred.  That  is 
the  point  that  Mr. 

Mr.  Sheean:  No,  Mr.  Cadle,  the  distance  run  there  is  92 
miles,  is  it  not?  You  know  the  distance  between  those  two  points, 
between  Winslow  and  Williams? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Between  Winslow  and  Williams  it  says:  ''In 
both  directions  100  miles."    This  is  what  is  allowed. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  the  actual  distance  is  92  there,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now  on  the  run,  the  man  making  that  run, 
Mr.  Cadle,  is  paid  for  100  miles,  according  to  the  schedule.  But, 


224 

I  understood  you  to  say  the  other  day  that  your  interpretation, 
or  your  understanding,  was  that  he  was  paid  108  miles  for 
that  92. 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir,  that  was  what  I  said. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Although  the  schedule  provides  he  shall  be 
paid  100  miles  between  those  points! 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  is  my  understanding  of  it,  that  he  was 
allowed — if  you  understand  mo  correctly  now,  he  was  allowed 
for  the  92  miles,  100  miles  for  that,  and  there  was  added  8  con- 
structive miles,  on  account  of  his  being  in  the  mountain  terri- 
tory, where  there  was  a  differential,  and  that  differential  was 
allowed  to  him — he  was  granted  8  miles,  and  that  8  miles  would 
be  108  miles,  instead  of  the  100. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  Mr.  Cadle,  all  that  I  wanted  to  get  at 
was  this,  as  to  whether  you  had  any  actual  knowledge  of  the 
practice  or  interpretation  of  this  schedule  provision  that  would 
cause  you  to  think  incorrect,  the  statement  made  by  Mr.  Wells 
of  this  road,  in  which  he  states,  in  this  telegram  which  I  have 
just  handed  you :  ''Engineers  and  firemen  are  paid  100  miles  in 
both  directions,  Winslow  and  Williams,  which  figures  93  actual 
and  7  constructive." 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  have  no  personal  knowledge  of  anything 
that  would  lead  you  to  believe  that  that  statement  of  Mr.  Wells 
is  inaccurate? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Why,  no. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  it  was  only  giving  your  interpretation 
that  under  the  rule  which  says  that  between  Winslow  and  Will- 
iams 100  miles  in  both  directions,  you  would  claim  108  instead 
of  100? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir.  There  is  one  point  on  that  thing  that 
I  think  should  be  brought  out.  Suppose  a  railroad  company 
states  that  they  will  pay  me  eight  constructive  miles  in  that 
mountain  territory.  Now,  if  they  don't  pay  me  eight — if  they 
add  that  eight  constructive  miles  to  build  up  the  hundred,  I  don't 
get  anything.    It  is  only  an  imaginary  item. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is,  you  get  100  every  time  you  go  out, 
whether  it  is  30  or  401 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  get  that  under  the  schedule.  100  constitutes 
a  day's  work  under  that  schedule,  and  I  get  it.    It  cannot  be 


225 

considered  constructive  miles  in  the  agreement.  Where  you 
might  go  to  work  and  add  the  eight  constructive  miles  on  to 
build  up  to  100,  I  don't  get  that  additional  pay.  I  would  get 
that  Avhether  I  had  any  rule  at  all  or  not.  But  my  under- 
standing of  that  rule  is  this :  When  they  allow  me  that  eight 
constructive  miles,  that  eight  constructive  miles  is  allowed  in 
addition  to  my  mileage  or  any  work  that  I  may  have  done  on 
that  division,  if  it  is  only  ten  miles  that  I  ran  over  that  moun- 
tain district.  If  that  is  all  the  work  the  company  has  for  me 
that  one  day  I  get  108  miles  for  it.  That  is  my  understanding  of 
the  schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  language  of  the  schedule  is :  ' '  The  con- 
structive mileage  shall  be  allowed  as  follows :  Between  Winslow 
and  Williams  100  miles  in  both  directions."  The  distance  is 
actually  92  miles,  and  if  you  made  a  round  trip  there  you  would 
receive  twice  92  ordinarily,  would  you  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     If  it  was  a  turn-around  service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Under  this  rule  you  would  get  2001 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  They  treat  that  particular  place  as  92  miles 
being  equivalent  to  100,  don't  they,  but  under  your  interpreta- 
tion of  that  you  would  treat  it  in  all  computations  as  92  miles 
being  equivalent  to  108  miles  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Because,  the  schedule  provides  that  he  would 
get  100  miles  for  the  92. 

Mr.  Sheean :  He  has  got  the  100  anyhow  on  your  line  of 
reasoning? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir,  he  ought  to  have  that  other  eight. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  when  you  spoke  about  the  num- 
ber of  roads  that  have  rules  pertaining  to  motor  car  service — 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  referred,  I  take  it,  to  the  agreement 
made  as  a  result  of  the  last  concerted  movement — I  think  it  was 
the  last  concerted  movement,  1910? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :    AVhich  made  provision  for  motor  car  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 


226 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  is  not  anything  in  that  agreement 
which  specifically  refers  to  electrical  multiple  unit  as  a  substi- 
tute for  steam,  is  there? 

Mr.  Cadle:     In  the  proposition  submitted? 

Mr.  Sheean :     No,  in  the  agreement  finally  made. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  in  the  agreement  finally  made, 
but  I  think  in  the  proposition  submitted  to  Mr.  Neill  as  a 
mediator  that  was  put  in,  that  was  what  we  were  talking  on, 
felectrical  multiple  unit. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  the  agreement  which  was  finally  made, 
simply  referred  to  motor  car  service,  did  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes.  It  didn't  specify  any  special  motor  car, 
as  I  understand  it, 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  on  many  of  these  roads  which  you 
enumerated  as  having  recognized  the  agreement  as  to  seniority, 
where  motor  car  service  was  established  as  a  substitute  for 
steam,  there  are  no  rates  of  pay  found  in  the  schedule  and  no 
actual  motor  car  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Where  they  have  established  a  motor  car  serv- 
ice on  these  different  railroads,  they  have  fixed  a  rate.  There 
are  a  great  many  other  railroads  which  have  no  motor  car  serv- 
ice, and  while  they  have  got  a  rule  that  the  seniority  shall  be 
interchangeable  and  that  they  shall  be  governed  by  the  rules 
and  regulations  of  steam,  they  haven't  fixed  a  rate,  because 
they  haven 't  liad  any  cars.    That  is  as  I  understand  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  I  wanted  in  that  respect,  Mr.  Cadle,  was 
that  a  great  majority  of  the  roads  which  have  that  general  rule 
simply  have  a  rule  as  to  which  they  have  no  service  as  yet? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Sheean:  Can  you  tell  how  many  roads  actually  have 
motor  car  service  at  this  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir,  I  cannot. 

Mr.  Sheean:  How  many  have  fixed  rates  of  pay — if  it  is 
not  convenient,  Mr.  Cadle,  we  can  get  that  later — I  thought 
perhaps  you  could  tell  offliand  about  how  many  there  were. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  twenty-six  schedules  that  have  a 
motor  car  rule  in. 

Mr.  Sheean:     How' many  have  a  rate  of  pay? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  six  railroads  that  have  a  fixed  rate 
of  pay  for  motor  cars. 


227 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  so  far  as  you  know  those  six  are  the 
only  ones  that  actually  have  motor  cars  f 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  think  there  are  no  railroads  that  have 
motor  cars  that  have  not  a  fixed  rate.  Take  the  Burlington,  for 
instance.  The  Burlington  has  got  a  rule  in  their  schedule,  they 
have  got  a  motor  car  but  an  engineer  is  not  running  it.  I  don't 
know  what  rate  the  fellow  does  get  that  is  running  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  the  rule  no  engineer  has  qualified? 
Your  rule  provides  for  that? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  far  as  you  know,  no  engineer  on  the  Bur- 
lingion  has,  under  that  rule,  exercised  his  seniority  right? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  am  not  aware  whether  the  company  ever 
called  one  of  their  men  in  to  qualify  for  that  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  elective  with  the  men? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Not  so  under  the  rule.  The  rule  provides  that 
the  engineers  shall  have  this  work  when  it  is  installed.  Now, 
if  the  company  has  not  called  an  engineer  in  to  qualify  him  for 
that  work,  why,  they  haven't  lived  in  compliance  with  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  don't  know  anything  personally  about 
whether  anyone  has  attempted  to  qualify  or  whether  there  has 
been  any  request,  or  anything  about  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  know  one  thing  certain,  there  is  a  brakeman 
running  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:    What  is  that  car,  running  where? 

Mr.  Cadle :  That  motor  car  you  have  got  out  at  Deadwood, 
out  in  the  Black  Hills. 

Mr.  Sheean:     How  far  does  it  run? 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  added  a  few  miles  recently.  I  suppose 
it  runs  sixteen  or  seventeen  miles.  I  presume  they  make  in 
their  day's  running,  back  and  forth,  perhaps  a  good  many 
miles — close  on  to  a  day's  work  in  there.  It  would  not  make 
any  difference,  the  point  I  want  to  bring  out  is  this,  that  we 
haven 't  got  that  motor  car.  There  is  a  motor  car  out  there  that 
we  haven't  got  any  rate  fixed  for,  and  that  would  answer  your 
question. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Is  there  a  trolley  car? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  what  it  is.  Electric,  I  think. — 
I  think  it  is  a  gasoline  car. 

Mr.  Byram:     It  is  an  electric  street  car,  a  trolley  car. 


228 

Mr.  Cadle:  Do  yon  moan  it  is  a  trolley  car  that  goes 
out  ou  a  country  road? 

Mr.  Byram:  It  is  a  trolley  car  that  runs  between  Dead- 
wood  and  Lead,  four  miles. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  is  a  difference  between  a  trolley  line 
and  an  interurban  line,  or  a  street  car  through  a  city. 

Mr.  Byram:  Just  an  ordinary  street  car.  It  goes  between 
the  two  towns,  four  miles. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  was  an  engineer  that  ran  that  run  be- 
fore you  converted  it  to  electricity. 

Mr.  Byram:     No,  it  was  always  an  electric  line. 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  was  an  engineer  that  ran  portions  of 
that  run  and  drew  certain  wages  for  it. 

Mr.  Byram:  It  was  always  a  trolley  line.  It  was  that 
when  we  bought  it. 

The  Chairman:    We  will  take  a  recess  now  until  2  o'clock. 

(Whereupon,  at  12:30  o'clock  P.  M.,  a  recess  was  taken 
until  2  o'clock  P.  M.) 

After  Recess. 

M.  W.  CADLE  was  recalled  for  further  examination  and, 
ha^dng  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  the  Board  please,  I  have  one  correction 
here  that  I  would  like  to  make.  In  my  statement  this  morning 
as  to  roads  that  paid  an  arbitrary  preparatory  time,  I  stated 
the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul.  I  would  like  to  correct 
that  to  read  the  Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  &  Sault  Ste.  Marie. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Mr.  Cadle,  if  you  will  go  back  for  just  a 
minute,  please,  to  that  part  of  the  submission  in  Article  2,  cov- 
ering ' '  Pusher,  helper,  mine  runs,  work,  wreck,  belt  line. ' '  Have 
you  that  before  you? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  there  any  definition  in  any  of  these  west- 
ern schedules  as  to  mine  runs? 

Mr.  Cadle :  They  have  service  that  they  call  mine  rims.  I 
suppose  that  was  the  only  definition  there  is.  The  railroad 
calls  it  a  mine  run. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  was  what  I  meant,  as  to  whether  they 
designate  it  in  any  particular  way. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 


229 

Mr.  Slieean:  And  this  was  intended  to  only  cover  service 
that  is  thus  specified? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Mine  runs. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Mine  runs? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  as  to  the  helper  service,  was  there  con- 
templated by  this  submission  that  any  engine  which  at  any  time 
in  the  day  did  any  helper  work,  that  it  should  take  the  helper 
pay! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  a  yard  engine  helping  a  train  out 
of  the  yard  would  take  the  helper  rate  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Was  it  also  the  intention  that  he  should  have 
100  miles  for  this  pushing  out  of  the  yard  and  also  his  day  in 
yard  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:     It  was  unless  you  agree  differently. 

Mr.  Sheean:  "Well,  we  haven't  anything  to  do  about  agree- 
ing here,  have  we?  I  mean  the  purpose  and  intent,  if  this 
request  is  granted  and  applied.  A  yard  engine  which  pushed 
a  heavily  loaded  train  out  of  the  yard,  getting  it  started  on 
the  road,  would  draw  one  day  for  that  service  in  pushing  that 
train,  and  if  it  worked  in  the  yard  the  rest  of  the  day,  one  day 
for  its  yard  work  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  that  yard  engine  was  considered — if  that 
was  a  portion  of  the  duty  assigned  to  that  yard  engine,  that  he 
was  to  push  the  train  out  of  the  yard,  and  you  used  him  in  this 
capacity,  this  rule  would  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  I  am  attempting,  Mr.  Cadle,  to  get  the 
case  of  a  train  which  is  stalled,  or  which  needs  assistance  in 
starting  out.  Not  a  regular  course  of  events  but  a  yard  engine 
used  on  one  day  to  push  one  train  out  and  be  switching  the  rest 
of  the  day.  Under  this  proposal,  does  he  draw  a  helper's  day 
and  a  yard  day? 

Mr.  Cradle :  I  would  say  this ;  that,  if  a  yard  engine  was 
required  to  help  a  train  out  of  the  yard — that  is,  in  the  yard, 
to  help  them  start  their  train,  and  he  did  not  go  out  of  his 
switching  limits  that  he  was  assigned  to,  why,  it  might  be  con- 
sidered that  he  was  doing  his  regular  work.  I  do  not  think  the 
rate  would  apply.     But  what  we  contemplate  applying  here  is 


230 

where  you  have  pusher  engines  and  helper  engines  that  they 
shall  carry  the  through  freight  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  does  it  also  contemplate  that  at  a  yard, 
for  instance,  such  as  at  St.  Paul,  or  between  St.  Paul  and  Min- 
neapolis, where  there  is  a  helper  assigned  to  do  that  work,  and 
trains  should  bunch  up  so  that  you  would  have  to  send  a  yard 
engine  out  to  push  one  train,  that  that  yard  engine  would  draw 
the  helper  rate  of  pay  for  the  day  as  well  as  for  the  work  it  did 
in  the  yard  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  think  the  rule  contemplates,  if  you  are  part 
of  a  day  SA\dtching  and  part  of  a  day  helping  to  put  back  the 
transfer  f reiglit,  I  don 't  think  the  rule  contemplates  that  if  you 
should  use  a  switch  engine  in  its  own  limits  to  help  a  train  out, 
or  help  pull  a  cut  of  cars  out  of  a  side  track,  get  them  straight, 
and  so  forth,  I  don't  think  the  rule  applied  to  that  kind  of  a  case 
at  all. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  where  in  the  submission,  Mr.  Cadle,  is 
there  any  provision  for  combining  these  two  classes  of  work 
that  you  separated,  combining  the  yard  work  or  yard  day  with 
the  pusher  or  helper  day? 

Mr.  Cadle:  We  worked  those  details  out  before  on  the 
same  kind  of  rule  of  submission. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is,  you  mean  in  the  East? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes.  When  you  submitted  this,  you  submitted 
it  to  the  General  Managers'  Committee  and  we  had  a  great 
many  of  those  rules  that  we  went  to  work  and  gave  the  general 
managers  the  interpretations  of,  how  they  should  apply,  so 
you  can  find  in  that  record  the  principle  underlying  the  propo- 
sition, so  far  as  the  engineers  are  concerned. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  if  the  award  on  this  article  was  given 
here  as  to  helper,  the  contention  would  be  the  same  as  was  made 
in  the  East  as  to  how  and  when  and  where  the  helper  rate 
should  apply? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  should  judge  so,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  if  the  contention  there  was  that  every 
helper  and  pusher  service  should  give  you  a  helper  and  pusher 
day,  your  understanding,  is,  that  the  same  contention  would 
be  made  here? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  It  was  not  intended,  though,  to  apply  simply 
to  regularly  assigned  helper  or  pusher  services? 


231 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  rule  was  to  apply  to  all.  The  way  it  ig 
written,  it  applies  to  all  and  there  are  no  exceptions. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  forgot,  Mr.  Cadle,  to  ask  you  this  morning 
as  to  this  narrow  gauge  proposition,  on  roads  where  narrow 
gauge  locomotives  are  in  service,  a  5  per  cent  increase  over 
present  rates  in  effect  shall  be  granted  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  that  contemplate  that  in  addition  to 
the  5  per  cent,  all  of  these  other  rules,  such  as  preparatory 
time,  initial  and  final  terminal  delay,  hours  of  service,  etc.,  shall 
also  apply  to  the  narrow  gauge  operations? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  this  increase  requested  is  solely  as 
to  the  rates,  and  all  the  other  increases  or  changes  that  there 
are  in  rules  are  to  be  applicable  to  the  narrow  gauge  operation 
also?  : 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Does  that  also  include  the  1.8  per  cent  gradi- 
ent, in  the  clause  just  preceding,  on  all  divisions  where  the  grade 
is  1.8  per  cent  or  over,  an  increase  of  10  per  cent  over  valley 
rates  will  be  paid? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  would  judge  so,  yes,  sir.  If  the  rates  on  the 
narrow  gauge  at  the  present  time  are  not  equal  to  that  amount, 
if  they  were  awarded  that,  that  would  apply  to  the  narrow 
gauge. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  after  first  applying  the  5  per  cent 
increase  to  present  rates? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  would  then,  where  there  was  a  narrow 
gauge  operated  on  any  division  that  had  more  than  1.8  per 
cent  grade,  add  a  further  10  per  cent? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  then  apply  also  preparatory  time,  initial 
and  final  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  ten  hours  or  less  would  still  apply  as 
to  the  run,  whether  it  was  thirty  or  forty  or  twenty  miles? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Cadle,  you  spoke  of  some  rates  on  elec- 
tric service,  and  among  others,  you  mentioned  a  $4.40  rate  on 


232 

the  Southern  Pacific.  The  operation  to  which  that  applies  has 
no  provision  for  one  hundred  miles  or  less  constituting  a  day, 
has  it — never  mind,  Mr.  Cadle.  If  the  Board  pleases,  I  think 
without  questioning  as  to  these  details  of  variations  in  sched- 
ules, it  is  proper  to  say  that  we  have  in  course  of  completion 
a  compilation  and  comparative  analysis  of  the  schedules,  by 
reference  to  the  article  in  each  particular  schedule,  so  that,  if 
and  when  there  be  any  variation  from  the  conclusions  or  deduc- 
tions that  Mr.  Cadle  has  given,  I  do  not  want  to  be  bound  as 
giving  assent  to  his  proper  classification  or  analysis  of  a  partic- 
ular schedule,  giving  a  five  hour  day,  or  an  eight  hour  day, 
or  a  ten  hour  day,  or  any  other  matter,  but  that  we  will  submit 
such  a  tabulation  accompanied  by  the  schedules  on  which  it  is 
based,  when  we  come  to  our  side  of  the  case;  and  my  thought 
was  perhaps  we  would  be  wasting  time  not  simply  to  question 
about  the  details  of  particular  schedules,  and  if  it  be  understood 
that  I  am  not  giving  assent  to  the  classification  under  which 
he  has  grouped,  in  his  testimony,  certain  roads,  I  Avill  not  take 
up  the  time  of  the  Board  in  questioning  about  the  provisions  of 
the  particular  schedules. 

The  Chairman :  I  understand  there  must  have  been  a  con- 
troversy about  this  matter,  and  you  have  one  view  of  the  mat- 
ter, and  they  claim  another,  therefore  you  can  present  your 
view  in  direct  testimony  or  by  cross-examination. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  being  largely  a  matter  of  documentary 
evidence  as  to  just  what  the  schedules  show,  it  occurred  to  me 
I  would  probably  only  unnecessarily  take  up  time  to  debate 
with  the  witness  on  any  particular  schedule. 

The  Chairman :     I  think  you  are  right  about  the  matter. 

Mr.  Stone :  Of  course,  we  will  have  a  chance  to  introduce 
documentary  evidence  in  rebuttal. 

The  Chairman:  Certainly.  Everything  material  bearing 
on  the  matter,  pro  or  con,  will  be  received. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  would  like  to  answer  the  question  that  has 
been  asked  me  in  regard  to  the  motor  car  service  on  the  South- 
ern Pacific.  Ten  hours  or  less,  ten  consecutive  hours  or  less, 
constitutes  a  day  in  the  motor  car  service  on  the  Southern  Pa- 
cific. 

Mr.  Sheean:     So  that  the  actual  practice  there  would  be 


233 

that  ten  full  hours  or  consecutive  hours,  irrespective  of  the  mile- 
age run,  would  be  necessary  to  earn  this  $4.40  rate? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Ten  consecutive  hours  or  less. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes,  but  if  they  worked  ten  hours  and  made 
250  miles,  the  pay  would  be  this  $4.40  rate? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  it  is  not  the  other  provision  that  you 
have  adverted  to  so  frequently,  that  the  hundred-mile  unit  is 
applicable  there  in  connection  with  the  ten  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle :    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  As  a  matter  of  practice  on  the  runs  there  do 
you  know  whether  there  are  220  miles  run  in  that  electric  service 
for  each  of  these  $4.40  days  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     That  may  be  true. 

Mr.  Stone:  May  I  ask  a  question  for  information,  Mr. 
Chairman? 

The  Chairman:     Certainly. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Sheean,  where  do  you  find  that  electric 
service  on  the  Southern  Pacific? 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  Article  28  of  the  Southern  Pacific 
schedule. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  understand  that  that  applies  to  all 
electric  service  ? 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  have  no  understanding  about  it. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  that  is  motor  car  service 
and  does  not  cover  the  multiple  unit,  of  electric  service,  of  San 
Francisco  and  Oakland? 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  think  that  is  covered  by  a  separate  provi- 
sion, and  I  think  when  Mr.  Cadle  testified  about  the  $4.40  rate, 
that  this  service  was  the  service,  and  only  this  $4.40  is  paid  for 
220  miles. 

Do  you  know,  Mr.  Cadle,  whether  or  not,  referring  now  to 
Article  3,  Local  or  Way  Freight  Service,  there  is  a  practice, 
quite  common  on  roads  in  Western  territory,  of  handling  on 
their  expedited  or  through  trains,  refrigerator  cars  between  cer- 
tain points,  and  to  unload  at  a  few  stations  the  meats  from  those 
peddler  cars? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :    If  it  is  needed  there. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 


234 

Mr.  Sbeeaii :  And  this  proposal  contemplates  that  even  on 
those  through  trains  where  a  single  peddler  car  is  put  on,  that 
train  shall  be  converted  into  a  local  train  and  pay  a  local  rate? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  think  that  was  ever  taken  into  con- 
sideration at  all. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  your  definition  here  of  Article  3,  if 
adopted,  the  loading  or  unloading  of  freight  ipso  facto  makes 
the  train  a  way  freight,  does  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  this  practice  which  is  quite  general, 
or  quite  common,  is  it  not 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  there  is  some  of  it  done. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  handling  of  these  refrigerator  cars 
in  that  way  cannot  feasibly  be  done  with  a  slower  movement  of 
the  regular  way  freiglit — that  is,  cannot  be  done  as  expeditiously 
and  as  well  as  it  is  now  done 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  is  one  thing  about  the  handling  of  those 
cars.  If  you  will  take  the  practice  in  effect  today,  I  do  not 
believe  there  has  been  very  much  complaint  made  or  been  any 
complaint  coming  from  the  engineers  where  they  put  one  of  those 
cars  on ;  but  the  great  difficulty  is  they  will  put  one  on  todaj^  and 
put  two  on  tomorrow,  and  the  next  day  they  will  have  a  whole  lot 
of  them  on,  and  we  want  pay  for  that  as  way  freight. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Just  what  contribution  does  the  engineer  or 
fireman  make,  where  the  trainmen  do,  at  these  two  or  three  sta- 
tions, unload  a  quarter  of  beef? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  have  seen  a  great  many  engineers  and  fire- 
men helping  to  unload  way  freight. 

Mr,  Sheean:     I  am  talking  about  refrigerator  cars. 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  I  am  speaking  about  the  refrigerator  cars. 
Take  a  man  on  a  single  track  railroad,  a  little  bit  pinched  for 
time ;  you  mil  see  the  engineer  down  there  helping  them  if  they 
want  any  assistance. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Just  when  and  where  was  that,  that  you  saw 
that  done  by  an  engineer?    On  what  road  and  at  what  station? 

Mr.  Cadle :  In  working  in  my  official  capacity  the  other  day 
I  investigated  a  pension  claim.  The  man  had  lost  his  eye.  That 
gentleman 's  name  was  Eyan,  and  he  was  working  on  the  Union 
Pacific  Kailroad  out  of  Grand  Island,  Nebraska.  I  asked  him 
how  he  lost  his  eye  and  he  told  me  that  he  was  assisting  in  un- 


235 

loading  way  freight  in  order  to  get  out.  They  had  a  heavy  box 
of  dry  goods  that  had  a  hoop  on  it,  and  when  they  dropped  it 
the  hoop  hit  him  in  the  eye.  There  is  one  engineer  that  I  can 
state  about. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  was  on  a  way  freight  train,  was  it? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  do  not  know  whether  it  was  on  a  way  freight 
train,  but  he  was  unloading  way  freight. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  Mr.  Cadle,  I  understood  you  to  say  that 
in  this  case  of  the  unloading  from  peddler  cars  or  refrigerator 
cars  you  had  known  of  instances  of  the  engineer  doing  some  work 
in  connection  with  that! 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  yes,  I  helped  to  carry  a  quarter  of  beef 
out  myself  when  we  were  peddling. 

Mr.  Sheean :     On  a  local  freight  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  on  a  through  freight.  We  ran  them  on 
a  through  freight. 

Mr.  Sheean:    You  ran  them  on  a  through  freight? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that  practice  goes  back  to  the  time  when 
you  were  an  engineer? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  clear  back. 

Mr.  Sheean:    And  how  long  is  it  since  you  ran  an  engine? 

Mr.  Cadle :     It  has  been,  perhaps,  twelve  or  fourteen  years.. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Where  was  it  you  last  ran  a  train  as  an  engi- 
neer 1 

Mr.  Cadle :     On  the  Missouri  Pacific. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Twelve  or  fourteen  years  ago? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr,  Sheean:  And  at  that  time,  and  ever  since,  as  far  as 
you  know,  the  refrigerator  cars  have  been  handled  in  through 
freight  trains  at  times? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  we  handled  a  meat  car  at  that  time  out 
of  Kansas  City  east,  and  that  is  the  reason  I  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  what  I  mean,  a  meat  car;  and  on 
other  roads  they  handle  a  fruit  car  at  times  in  the  same  way? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  I  do  not  know ;  I  never  handled  any  fruit 
cars — that  is,  package  freight. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Is  it  your  idea,  Mr.  Cadle,  that  either  in  this 
submission  or  in  the  past  rules,  there  is  anything  which  requires 
an  engineer  to  do  any  work  in  connection  with  the  loading  or 


236 

unloading  either  of  way  freight  or  of  other  freight  from  through 
trains? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then  are  you  able  to  state  whether  Article 
3  in  the  form  in  which  it  is  presented  would  operate  to  make 
applicable  the  local  or  way  freight  rate  to  all  of  these  through 
trains  on  which  a  peddler  car  is  handled? 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  looks  to  me  as  though  you  have  a  number 
of  schedules  right  now  in  existence  where  they  say  that  if  you 
unload  package  freight  at  one,  two,  three  or  more  stations,  what- 
ever they  enumerate,  that  will  be  classed  as  a  way  freight  train. 

Now,  if  that  rule  is  in  the  schedule,  and  that  rule  is  not  a 
part  of  the  arbitration  proceeding  here,  I  do  not  see  anything  in 
here  that  would  eliminate  that  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  talking  now  about  a  road  which  does  not 
have  any  such  rule;  and  so  far  as  any  of  these  rules  are  con- 
cerned, they  are  eliminated  if  they  are  any  better  than  this  rule. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  talking  about  what  this  rule  gives  you 
in  that  respect.  Just  consider  that  there  is  no  rule  in  any  sched- 
ule that  is  better  than  the  proposition  that  you  should  get  way 
freight  rates  on  a  through  train  that  has  a  single  peddler  car. 
"Would  this  rule  in  the  form  in  which  it  is  submitted  require  the 
payment  of  the  way  freight  rate ! 

^Ir.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir,  I  think  it  would. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  that  same  article,  in  the  next  paragraph, 
concerning  the  doing  of  certain  work  by  a  through  or  irregular 
freight  train,  provision  is  made  for  pajing  for  all  the  work 
there  enumerated  at  overtime  rates,  in  addition  to  the  time 
on  mileage  made  on  the  trip.  Does  this  proposition,  as  sub- 
mitted, contemplate  that  the  work  there  enumerated  shall  be 
paid  for  at  the  rate  of  time  and  one-half? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Overtime? 

Mr.  Sheean:  "Well,  work  such  as  switching  at  stations, 
spurs,  mines,  mills,  or  required  to  pick  up  or  set  out  a  car  unless 
the  car  is  first  out. 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  I  would  not  think  that  time  and  a  half 
would  apply  to  that  work  unless  it  was  at  the  end  of  the  run 
over  the  ten  hours. 


237 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  tlie  proposition  does  say  that  it  shall 
be  paid  for  at  overtime  rates. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  your  freight  proposition  as  to  over- 
time— overtime  in  all  other  service  than  passenger — turning 
back  to  the  last  part  of  Article  1,  ''Overtime  in  all  other  ser^4ce 
except  passenger  and  switching  service  will  be  computed  on  a 
basis  of  ten  miles  per  hour  and  paid  for  at  the  rate  of  fifteen 
miles  per  hour." 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Is  there  any  other  i^rovision  from  which  you 
can  ascertain  what  the  overtime  rate  applicable  to  this  station 
switching  is,  except  that  last  part  of  Article  1 1 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  overtime  rate  would — in  freight  service 
would  be  paid  according  to  the  class  of  engine  that  you  were 
operating,  and  it  would  be  paid  at  the  end  of  the  run,  time  and 
a  half.    That  is  the  intent  of  that  rule,  as  I  understand  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  unless  this  ran  into  overtime,  is  it 
your  understanding,  that  you  are  not  to  be  paid  for  this  unless 
at  the  end  of  the  trip  the  total  of  time  gave  more  than  ten  hours  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No.     I  understand  that  if  a  through  freigh^ 
train,  going  over  a  road,  is  called  upon  to  perform  any  of  this 
kind  of  work  enumerated  in  that  article,  that  they  are  to  be 
paid  the  overtime  rate,  separate  and  distinct  from  any  other 
time  that  is  earned  on  the  trip. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  even  though  the  total  time  on  duty 
was  but  five  hours  and  the  total  miles  run  was  fifty! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr,  Sheean:  They  would  draw  one  hundred  miles  for  the 
fifty  run,  and  they  would  also  draw  time  paid  for  at  overtime 
rates  for  anything  that  they  did  under  the  headings  classified 
here? 

Mr.  Cadle.     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  reading  these  two  articles 
together,  or  these  two  parts  of  Article  3,  you  make  provision 
in  the  first  paragraph  whereby  a  local  freight  train  is  defined, 
and  in  that  first  paragraph  a  local  way  freight,  among  other 
things,  is  defined  as  one  which  is  doing  station  switching  en 
route. 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 


238 

Mr.  Sheean:  Was  it  the  intention,  that  these  two  para- 
graphs of  this  article  should  be  combined  so  that  the  provision 
that  he  would  get  the  way  freight  rate  under  the  first  part  of 
the  article  and  be  paid  separately  for  all  of  this  switching  at 
stations,  simply  means  the  miles  separate  from  the  road  trip? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  he  would  take  both  the  freight  rate 
applicable  to  the  whole  trijD,  plus  all  of  these  intermediate  things 
in  addition  to  the  time  he  makes? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  irrespective  entirely  of  the  length 
of  run  or  the  total  time  on  duty? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Then,  Mr.  Cadle,  would  this  practically  oper- 
ate to  have  the  man  paid  both  for  the  total  time  on  duty,  if  it 
ran  into  overtime,  and  also  separately  and  distinctly  from  the 
trip,  all  the  work  that  he  did,  in  any  of  these  respects? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  the  overtime  accrued  after  ten  hours,  yes, 
sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  same  time.  If  it  was  two  hours  that  he  did 
this  work,  he  would  be  paid,  both  for  overtime  at  time  and  a 
half  and  also  be  paid  for  it  at  overtime  rate  in  here,  the  same 
two  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Give  him  three  hours  as  overtime ;  two  hours 
because  it  was  intermediate,  if  it  was  computed  on  the  pro  rata 
basis,  or  five  hours  all  told? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  the  time  and  a  half  is  also  applicable  here 
it  would  give  him  six  hours  that  he  is  paid  for  for  these  two 
hours? 

Mr.  Cadle :     That  would  be  pretty  good  pay. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes,  and  that  is  what  the  rule  would  give  him 
if  granted.  We  cannot  quarrel  over  that,  Mr.  Cadle,  that  it 
would  be  extremely  good  pay,  but  we  want  to  ascertain  whether 
or  not  that  is  what  we  would  be  called  upon  to  pay  if  this  re- 
quest were  granted? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  looks  to  me  as  though  you  are  getting  those 
two  rules  that  are  made  for  two  separate  and  distinct  pur- 
poses mixed.     The  additional  pay  does  not  make  a  local  train 


239 

out  of  that  train.  It  is  still  a  througli  freight  train.  That  is 
what  it  refers  to.  The  first  paragraph  of  that  rule  provides 
how  mixed  trains  and  other  trains  shall  be  paid.  Now,  then, 
for  your  local — define  what  constitutes  a  local.  Now,  when  a 
man  does  this  additional  service,  that  does  not  make  a  local 
train  out  of  him.  He  is  still  a  through  freight  train.  He  does  not 
get  the  through  freight  rates,  but  he  does  get  the  through  rates, 
and  he  gets  this  additional  work — pay  for  this  additional  serv- 
ice. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  if  it  runs  over  ten  hours  he  draws  it 
both  as  overtime  and  in  addition  to  the  time  or  miles  of  the 
trip? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  but  it  is  through  freight  rates.  Don 't  call 
it  local. 

Mr.  Sheean:     You  say  at  overtime  rates? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  anything  over  the  actual  ten  hours 
on  the  trip,  if  two  hours  of  that  was  done  in  this  intermediate 
switching,  he  would  be  paid  both  for  the  overtime  and  for  the 
intermediate  switching? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  whether  the  time  and  a  half  applied 
twice  to  that,  or  only  once,  you  say,  so  far  as  you  understand, 
it  was  the  intention  to  apply  it  only  once  as  to  the  overtime  and 
give  him  five  hours  and  not  six  for  that  two  hours  extra  work, 
in  case  it  ran  into  overtime! 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  really  haven't  worked  that  rule  out  now  to 
see  how  it  would  apply.  I  would  not  like  to  say  definitely  that 
that  would  work  out  that  way  unless  I  was  certain  that  it 
would. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Generally,  in  the  Western  schedules,  either 
in  the  schedules  or  in  the  time  cards,  local  freights  are  desig- 
nated and  specified,  are  they  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  there  isn't  any  misunderstanding 
between  the  roads  as  to  what  are  actually  way  freights,  as 
listed  in  the  schedules,  or  as  put  on  their  time  cards;  the  con- 
troversy has  arisen,  wherever  there  has  been  a  controversy, 
by  the  claim  made  to  have  applicable  to  certain  trains,  rates  of 


240 

pay  where  those  trains  were  not  either  carded  or  enumerated 
as  local  or  way  freights? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  question,  that  I  have  been  principally  con- 
nected with,  arose  where  they  would  run  second  sections  of  a 
local  train ;  they  would  run  two  trains.  They  would  divide  the 
work  between  those  two  trains;  the  first  train  would  haul  the 
cars  that  were  to  be  distributed  at  the  different  stations  and  do 
the  station  switching,  and  the  other  train  would  take  the  way 
freight  and  the  package  stuff. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  the  way  freight  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes.  The  questions  I  have  been  called  on  to 
try  to  adjust  with  the  companies  were  where  they  refused  to  pay 
the  local  rate  of  pay  for  the  second  section. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  where  they  were  handling  carloads? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Well,  distributing  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Distributing  carloads'? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  way  freight  ordinarily  has  been  a  train 
that  leaves  at  a  regularly  scheduled  time,  puts  on  and  takes  off 
less  than  carloads,  and  also  may  have  cars  to  deliver  on  the 
intermediate  journey? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  a  great  majority  of  the  schedules 
there  is  a  specific  provision  made  as  to  just  what  are  local  or 
way  freights,  is  there  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    In  some  of  them,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Well,  a  good  many  of  them? 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  time  table  always  specifies. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Wliat  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  time  table  always  specifies. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  time  able  always  specifies  the  way 
freights  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  way  freights  on  different  roads  so 
as  to  meet  conditions  upon  these  different  roads? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir.  There  are  railroads  that  have  no 
time  table  at  all  for  their  way  freight  trains. 

Mr.  Sheean:    In  this  country  or  Canada? 

Mr.  Cadle:    In  this  country.    Take  the  New  York  Central; 


241 

take  those  four  track  railroads,  and  they  do  not  have  a  schedule 
at  all ;  they  start  them  out  when  they  get  ready. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Here  in  the  west  is  there  any  way  freight 
that  isn't  shown  regularly  in  the  time  card? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Not  that  I  am  aware  of,  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  any  one  speaking  of  a  way  freight, 
he  can  ordinarily  ascertain  from  the  time  table  jnst  what  way 
freights  there  are  on  that  road? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  addition  to  the  time  table  they  are 
enumerated  in  a  great  many  schedules? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  As  to  the  differential  which  is  applicable, 
Mr.  Cadle,  25  cents ;  that  is  the  highest  differential  here  in  the 
"Western  territory,  with  the  single  exception  of  the  Northern 
Pacific  Railroad,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  have  got  a  list  here  of  the  percentage,  and 
the  25  cents  is  paid  by  a  great  many  railroads,  but  there  are 
other  railroads  paying  a  greater  amount  than  25  cents,  other 
than  the  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Sheean:     In  the  Western  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Shown  by  the  schedules? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir;  I  have  got  a  list  of  them  here  and 
the  percentage,  the  amount  of  percentage. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  you  have  that  handy,  I  wish  you  would 
just  read  that  into  the  record  as  to  which  pay  more  than  25 
cents  in  the  West. 

Mr.  Cadle  (Reading) :      • 

Canadian  Pacific,  West,  40  cents. 

Chicago  &  Alton,  30  cents. 

Burlington,  30  cents. 

Chicago  &  Eastern  Illinois,  33  and  35  cents. 

Chicago  Great  Western,  30  cents. 

Chicago  &  North  Western,  30  cents. 

Chicago,  St.  Paul,  Minneapolis  &  Omaha,  30  cents. 

Fort  Smith  &  Western,  60  cents. 

Fort  Worth  &  Denver  City,  50  cents. 

Great  Northern,  40  cents. 

Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe,  50  cents. 


242 

Illiuois  Central,  25  to  40  cents. 

Minneapolis  &  International,  7  per  cent. 

Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas,  25  to  35  cents. 

Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf,  35  cents. 

Northern  Pacific,  10  per  cent. 

San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass,  65  cents. 

St.  Louife,  Brownsville  &  Mexico,  30  cents. 

Texas  Pacific,  35  cents. 

Wichita  Valley,  50  cents. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Where  there  is  a  difference  in  the  amount 
of  differential,  are  those  on  certain  specified  way  freight  runs, 
that  on  one  they  will  pay  a  certain  amount,  and  on  another  way 
freight  another  differential? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  those  are  the  regular  way  freight  rates. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  said  from  25  to  35  cents — that  is,  on  a 
particular  run  the  differential  may  be  25  cents,  and  on  another 
run  35  cents? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  runs  themselves  are  specified  in  the 
schedule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  next  article,  switching  service, —  you 
stated,  upon  direct  examination,  in  response  to  a  question  of 
Mr,  Stone,  that  the  only  difference  from  the  present  rule  was 
that  of  continuous  service.  I  think,  perhaps,  you  did  not  in- 
tend to  exclude  from  that,  that  the  provision  as  to  time  and  a 
half  is  a  ne>y  proposition  in  switching  service,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  time  and  a  half  is  new,  but  an  increase 
over  the  daily  rate  is  not  new. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Well,  the  time  and  a  half 

Mr.  Cadle:  What  I  mean  by  that,  now,  so  you  will  under- 
stand it,  if  I  am  working  ten  hours  a  day  and  my  hourly  rate 
is  35  cents,  there  are  schedules  where  the  overtime  rate  would 
be  more  than  35  cents  per  hour;  that  is,  you  increase  the  over- 
time rate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Just  what  schedule  do  you  know  of  that 
makes  an  hourly  rate? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  am  speaking  about  the  hourly  rate  for  over- 
time, where  the  15  per  cent  would  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Well,  in  arriving  at  the  hourly  rate  you  sim- 


243 

ply  carry  back  the  daily  rate,  do  you,  and  reduce  that  to  the 
hourly  rate,  yourself? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  by  the  way,  Mr.  Cadle,  in  that  same  con- 
nection, the  hourly  rates.  You  spoke  the  other  day  of  there 
being  in  the  east,  in  passenger  service,  a  twenty-mile  an  hour 
basis  of  overtime.  Under  that  rule,  overtime  is  paid  at  the  fixed 
rate  of  50  cents  an  hour,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  do  not  have,  either  in  the  east  or 
anywhere,  a  provision  in  the  exact  form  of  your  request,  for  pas- 
senger service,  here? 

Mr.  Cadle:     A  fixed  rate? 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  exact  form  of  the  request  which  you  have 
made  here. 

Mr.  Cadle :  You  have  got  a  fixed  rate  in — do  you  mean  pro 
rata? 

Mr.  Sheean :  No.  The  form  of  your  request  as  to  the  pas- 
senger service,  what  shall  constitute  a  day  and  what  shall  be 
paid,  how  overtime  shall  be  computed  and  paid,  all  considered 
together. 

Mr.  Cadle :    Let  me  see  what  it  does  say. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Preparatory  time,  initial  and  final  terminal 
delay,  they  are  all  parts  of  the  day's  work,  aren't  they? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir,  under  this  proposition. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  there  isn't  any  schedule  that  you  know 
of  that  has  all  of  the  things  in  it  that  you  have  here,  either  as  to 
passenger  or  freight — that  is,  I  mean  the  number  of  miles,  the 
number  of  hours,  the  rate  as  to  overtime,  the  arbitrary  prepara- 
tory time,  the  initial  and  final  terminal  delay — no  one  schedule 
that  you  know  of  has  in  it  all  of  the  provisions  on  those  topics 
which  are  contained  in  this  request? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  I  think  I  can  find  you  a  schedule  of  that 
kind. 

Mr.  Sheean:     But  you  cannot  name  it  now? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  can  pick  one  out  here,  though,  I  think. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  if  you  can,  I  would  be  very  glad  to  have 
it.  If  you  cannot  do  it  readily  I  would  be  very  glad  to  have  you 
furnish  it  at  any  time  during  the  conference  here,  in  which  either 
the  freight  or  passenger  has  the  same  provision  as  to  length  of 


244 

day,  the  same  arbitrary  for  preparatory  time,  the  same  initial 
and  final  terminal  delay  that  is  contained  in  this  request. 

Mr.  Cadle;  Well,  supposing  it  was  on  an  eight-hour  basis 
instead  of  ten  hours  ? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Not  if  it  had  the  others  in  it,  no.  Any  one 
you  can  find  which  has  a  combination  as  favorable,  Mr.  Cadle,  I 
will  put  it  that  broad,  a  combination  on  those  topics  in  any  one 
schedule  which  contains  all  of  these  provisions  or  anything 
equally  favorable,  in  a  single  schedule.  This  switching  rule,  Mr. 
CadJe — is  there  any  provision  in  any  schedule  now  which  makes 
the  ten  hours  of  switching  service  continuous,  from  the  time  that 
they  go  to  work  until  they  are  relieved,  and  pays  entirely  for  the 
meal  hourf 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  understand  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  Baltimore  &  Ohio  Chicago  Terminal? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio  proper.  I  don't 
know  whether  they  have  got  that  in  the  Terminal  or  not. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Pay  for  ten  hours  for  nine  and  a  half  hours 
actually  at  work? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir.  And  I  might  say  the  Delaware,  Lack- 
awanna &  Western.  I  made  a  schedule  there  where  they  pay  them 
continuous. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  when  you  outlined  here  on 
direct  examination  the  necessity  for  having  a  reasonable  dinner 
hour  provision,  it  is  a  fact,  is  it  not,  that  at  the  present  time 
all  of  the  schedules  of  the  roads,  or  if  not  in  the  schedule,  the 
practice  upon  all  of  the  roads  in  this  movement  is  to  make  pro- 
vision for  a  dinner  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  that  respect  there  isn't  any  difference 
between  the  actual  time  given,  in  respect  to  furnishing  time  to 
eat,  between  your  proposal,  and  the  practice  of  the  railroads; 
your  proposal  simply  requiring  pay  for  that,  but  not  changing 
the  practice  itself? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  there  is  nothing  about  your  proposal 
here  that  would  tend  in  any  way  to  bring  about  any  change  in 
the  operating  practice  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  It  is  quite  important,  is  it,  Mr.  Cadle,  that  the 
provisions  as  to  the  time  when  the  men  of  the  switching  crew 


same. 

Mr. 

Sheean : 

Mr. 

Cadle : 

Mr. 

Sheean : 

Mr. 

Cadle : 

245 

eat  should  be  the  same  in  the  schedule  of  both  the  trainmen,  and 
the  engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  sir.  The  engineers  and  firemen — Oh,  yes. 
I  thought  you  meant  the  engineers  and  yardmen. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  I  do  mean  the  engineers  and  yardmen. 
What  I  mean,  Mr.  Cadle,  is  this,  that  on  a  single  road,  taking 
any  one  of  the  roads  in  the  movement  here,  it  is  important  that 
the  hour  provided  when  the  engineer  and  firemen  shall  have  their 
meal  hour  should  be  the  same  as  the  members  of  the  crew  that 
work  with  them  during  the  day? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Well,  it  should  be  the  same,  but  it  is  not  the 

It  should  be  the  same? 
But  it  is  not  the  same. 

No? 
I  would  like  to  explain,  if  you  please.  You 
take  a  yard  man,  when  his  dinner  hour  comes,  he  is  turned  in 
for  dinner,  all  he  has  to  do  is  to  take  his  coat  and  go  and  get 
his  dinner,  while  that  engineer  has  got  to  take  that  engine  to 
some  designated  track,  to  some  point  where  it  is  taken  care  of, 
either  taken  care  of  by  a  hostler,  who  cleans  the  fire  and  gives 
them  coal,  and  they  do  that  while  the  engineer  is  not  working. 
The  engineer  may  be  released  at  twelve  o  'clock  in  the  yard  and 
the  yard  man  goes  out  at  twelve  o'clock  to  dinner,  but  the  engi- 
neer has  got  to  fight  his  way  to  some  given  track  and  he  perhaps 
won't  be  off  duty  for  thirty  minutes  after  the  yard  man  has  been 
released,  therefore,  it  becomes  necessary  to  make  a  rule  different 
for  a  locomotive  engineer's  meal  hour  than  for  a  yard  man.  They 
are  not  both  alike. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  did  not  mean  to  get  into  any  discussion  as 
to  whether  the  engineer  and  fireman  needed  a  longer  time,  a 
longer  spread,  more  time  off  duty,  but  all  I  meant  was  simply 
whether  the  rule  should  make  provision  whereby  the  crew  which 
works  with  that  engine  is  off  duty  during  the  same  period. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:    And  that  is  important  in  operation,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  know,  of  course,  that  the  meal  hours 
are  generally  covered  by  schedule  provisions? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 


246 

Mr.  Sheean:  Both  for  the  yard  man  and  for  the  engineers 
and  firemen  f 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  They  have  been  agreed  upon  generally, 
fixing  hours  varying,  from  11 :30  to  1,  or  between  11 :30  and  half 
past  one,  or  between  12  and  2,  to  meet  conditions  at  different 
places  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  those  are  now  in  vogue  upon  the  differ- 
ent roads? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  As  a  result  of  negotiations  to  meet  conditions 
local  to  the  different  roads'? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Cadle,  this  rule  as  proposed  here  would 
change  the  practice  on  all  the  roads  where  the  men  have  a  right 
to  take  a  full  one  hour  at  noon  for  their  meal  if  they  desire, 
without  pay,  and  if  the  work  was  done  in  just  the  same  way  in 
those  yards  as  it  is  now,  they  would  have  to  pay  for  one  hour 
at  the  overtime  rate  of  time  and  one-half? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  and  give  their  crews  a  part  of  that  hour 
to  get  their  meals. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is,  a  man  going  to  work  at  7  in  the  morn- 
ing, having  from  12  to  1,  to  have  his  meal,  and  going  to  work 
again  from  1  to  6  in  the  afternoon,  would  be  paid  overtime  at 
the  rate  of  time  and  one-half? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Do  you  know  of  any  road,  either  in  the  East 
or  West,  where  there  is  any  differential  now  between  night  and 
day  rates  for  engineers  and  firemen  in  the  yards? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  that  rule  also  occurs  the  word  ''undis- 
turbed" for  meals.  The  usual  provision  of  schedules  so  far  as 
I  have  seen  them,  is  to  allow  thirty  minutes,  or  forty-five  min- 
utes, or  whatever  it  may  be,  for  meals? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  expression  ''undisturbed,"  for  meals, 
is  also  a  new  word  in  schedule  making,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     It  is  a  new  word? 


247 

Mr.  Cadle :     It  is  a  new  word  to  me. 

Mr.  Sheean :     It  is  a  new  word  to  you? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  like  all  other  new  words  in  schedule 
making,  you  have  to  have  interpretations  and  adjudications  as 
to  just  what  if  anything  is  accomplished  by  puttting  this  word 
in  there  that  has  not  been  in  past  schedules? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  To  your  personal  observation,  what  difficulty 
has  there  been  about  any  meal  hour  interpretation  and  the  rights 
of  the  parties  under  meal  hour  rules  as  they  now  exist? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  do  not  know  as  there  has  been  a  great  deal 
of  complaint  about  the  meal  hour  in  recent  years. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  the  last  three  years  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Of  course  vou  know  that  little  differences  will 
arise  in  the  best  regulated  families  in  our  country? 

Mr.  Sheean:    Absolutely. 

Mr.  Cadle:  And  the  engineers  who  are  doing  this  switch- 
ing are  not  an  exception  to  the  rule ;  and  every  one  of  those  m.en 
has  a  schedule,  and  he  has  got  his  own  interpretation  of  it,  and 
there  are  questions  that  will  arise;  but  all  of  the  railroads,  as  a 
general  proposition,  have  got  a  rule  fixed  for  their  dinner  hour, 
so  that  the  men  can  go  and  get  their  meals. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  you  do  not  know  of  any  of  them  that  have 
this  word  ''undisturbed"  in  their  rules? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  I  suppose  you  are  not  sufficiently 
prophetic  to  say  just  how  that  will  be  interpreted? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  if  I  was  working  under  that  rule,  if  it 
was  adopted,  and  a  fellow  would  come  over  and  call  me,  or 
want  me  to  go  to  work,  if  they  adopted  that  rule  I  would  expect 
the  company  to  give  me  sixty  minutes  for  dinner. 

Mr.  Stone:     Thirty. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Well,  thirty  minutes  undisturbed  meal  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  does  the  word  "undisturbed"  put  into 
this  rule  that  is  not  in  the  present  practice? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  think  right  now  there  are  times  when  you  do 
not  get  your  thirty  minutes  that  are  due  you,  and  there  are 
times  when  you  may  get  more  than  thirty  minutes.  I  think  the 
need  of  the  rule  is  to  make  it  positive  that  a  man  will  be  given 
thirty  minutes  for  meals. 


248 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  that  same  article  there  is  a  provision  that 
when  road  engines  are  used  in  yard  service,  road  rates  will 
apply.  Does  that  contemplate  that  when  a  road  engine  is  con- 
verted to  switching  purposes,  by  providing  both  front  and  rear 
headlight,  and  footboard  both  forward  and  rear,  nevertheless 
the  road  rate  shall  apply  to  that  engine  while  it  is  thus  used  in 
the  vard. 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  was  not  my  understanding  of  the  rule 
when  the  rule  was  formulated  to  cover  that  class  of  service. 
The  intent  of  the  rule  was  that  where  road  engines  came  in  on 
their  runs,  and  where  a  yard  engine  might  be  out  of  commis- 
sion,— there  might  be  some  repairs  to  be  made — and  they  used 
the  road  engine  as  a  substitute  for  the  yard  engine — if  they  did 
that,  there  would  be  a  differential. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  that  intention 
which  you  had  in  drafting  the  rule  is  still  the  intention  of  the 
proponents  of  this  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:    I  could  not  tell  you. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Did  you  participate  in  any  of  the  conferences? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  remember  whether  or  not  that  ques- 
tion was  asked  as  to  the  application  of  that  particular  rule  to  the 
situation  to  which  I  have  referred  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  is  possible  that  it  was  asked,  but  I  do  not 
remember  any  conclusion  or  definition  being  made. 

Mr,  Sheean:  But  it  is  not  your  understanding  now  that 
it  is  intended  to  apply  that  to  a  converted  road  engine  used  reg- 
ularly in  switching  service,  or  used  temporarily  in  switching 
service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  it  is  used  temporarily,  yes,  it  is  my  under- 
standing that  the  differential  would  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Even  though  front  and  rear  footboards  and 
front  and  rear  headlights  were  provided  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Just  what  limit  of  time  would  you  place  on 
what  was  a  temporary  and  what  a  permanent  use  of  such  an 
engine? 

Mr.  Cadle:  One  day  would  in  my  mind  be  considered  tem- 
porary. 


249 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  how  about  a  week's  use  of  such  an 
engine  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  would  not  call  it  a  temporary  job  then.  If 
you  are  looking  for  a  dividing  line,  why,  it  would  seem  as 
though  it  might  be  well  to  establish  some  given  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  would  prevent  the  converting  of  a  road 
engine  into  a  switch  engine  by  putting  running  boards  or  foot- 
boards and  front  and  rear  headlights  on  it,  and  regularly  mak- 
ing use  of  that  in  the  yard. 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  it  would  not  prevent  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  would  have  to  continue  to  pay  road  rates 
on  it  under  this  proposal? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  there  is  a  differential  of  these  schedules, 
of  twenty-five  cents. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  the  part  1  was  talking  about,  Mr.  Cadle, 
was,  when  road  engines  are  used  in  yard  ser^dce  road  rates 
will  apply. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  my  question  was  directed  to  the  con- 
verting a  road  engine  in  the  manner  I  have  described,  into  a 
switch  engine  and  using  it  in  a  yard.  Would  the  road  rates 
which  would  be  applicable  to  that  engine  if  used  on  the  road, 
apply  during  all  the  time  it  was  in  the  yard? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  think  it  was  the  intent — it  is  my  judgment 
that  it  was  the  intent  of  the  rule  when  it  was  formulated,  that 
the  rates  should  apply  to  all  road  engines  when  used  in  switch- 
ing service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  Cadle,  I  am  still  not  clear  as  to 
whether  or  not  that  rule  would  permit  a  road  converting  a  road 
engine  into  a  switch  engine  by  putting  footboards  and  front 
and  rear  headlights,  to  pay  only  switch  rates  for  it,  or  whether 
they  would  continue  to  pay  road  rates  on  such  an  engine  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  way  that  rule  is  written,  I  do  not  see  how 
you  can  interpret  it  any  other  way. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Than  that  we  would  have  to  pay  road  rates  on 
all  converted  engines? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Whether  temporary,  permanent  or  other- 
wise? 

Mr.  Cadle,  Yes,  sir. 


250 

Mr.  Slieean :  And  whether  with  front  and  rear  headlights 
and  also  front  and  rear  footboards? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  only  road,  so  far  as  your  analysis  has 
shown,  on  which  there  is  any  such  provision  in  the  schedule, 
is  that  of  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  remember  now.  Yes,  the  Chicago, 
Milwaukee  &  Puget  Sound  pay  through  freight  rates. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Well,  that  is  the  only  one. 

Mr.  Cadle :     That  is  the  only  one  that  I  can  recall. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  you  said  the  other  day  that  in 
the  eastern  territory  they  awarded  us  a  25  cent  differential  on 
road  engines  used  in  yards? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Twenty-five  cents. 

Mr.  Sheean:  A^^ien  a  road  engine  was  used  in  the  yard? 
Are  you  not  in  error  about  that  ?  I  think  you  were  talking,  Mr. 
Cadle,  about  a  differential  between  local  way  freights  and 
through  freights.  But,  was  the  question  of  road  engines  used 
in  yards  even  before  the  arbitrators  in  the  East? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  I  do  not  think  it  was. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  just  wanted,  in  fairness  to  you,  to  correct 
that  part  of  your  testimony. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  answered  the  other  day,  and  I  thought 
inadvertently,  that  in  the  eastern  territory  they  awarded  us 
that  twenty-five  cent  differential  where  road  engines  were  used 
in  the  yard.     That  is  an  error,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes.    It  was  west. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Under  Article  5,  about  Preparatory  Time — 

The  Chairman:  Just  a  minute,  Mr.  Sheean.  One  of  the 
Board  would  like  to  ask  some  questions. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Mr.  Cadle,  in  reference  to  the  last  question 
of  Mr.  Sheean,  was  it  not  the  southeast  rate  you  were  referring 
to,  about  the  differential  being  made  there  of  twenty-five  cents 
more  when  road  engines  were  used  in  switching  service,  instead 
of  the  East  ?    I  think  he  referred  to  the  southeast,  Mr.  Sheean. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  think  the  question  was  about  the  southeast, 
and  he  answered,  the  Eastern  Award.  There  was  no  award  in 
the  southeast,  so  far  as  I  know.  Mr.  Stone 's  question  was  as  to 
the  common  meaning  in  the  southeast,  and  he  answered  as  to 


251 

that.  In  the  eastern  territory  they  awarded  us  that  twenty-five 
cent  differential.  I  do  not  know  of  any  award  anywhere  that 
gives  us  any  differential. 

Mr.  Burgess:  No,  but  I  thought  he  was  referring  to  the 
condition  in  the  southeast  country. 

Mr.  Sheean :  There  was  the  question  as  to  conditions,  but 
Mr.  Cadle's  answer  was  that  in  the  eastern  territory  they 
awarded  us  that  twenty-five  cent  differential,  and  I  did  not  know 
of  any  award  anywhere,  southeast,  east  or  elsewhere. 

Mr.  Burgess:  I  think  you  are  right  on  the  award,  Mr. 
Sheean,  but  as  long  as  you  want  to  correct  it,  I  think  you  should 
correct  it  right.  I  think  he  was  referring  to  the  southeast  coun- 
try, where  there  is  a  general  practice,  without  being  an  award, 
that  the  road  should  pay  twenty-five  cents  additional. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  question  of  Mr.  Stone  was  as  to  practice 
in  the  southeast,  and  the  answer  was  that  they  awarded  it  in  the 
east. 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  was  an  error.  It  was  the  southeast. 
I  know  there  are  quite  a  number  of  railroads  in  the  south- 
east where  they  have  got  a  differential  of  25  cents. 

Mr.  Sheean:  A  differential  over  the  regular  switching 
rate? 

Mr.  Oadlo:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  On  a  day,  that  is.  As  to  the  preparatory 
time,  Article  5,  does  this  proposal,  as  submitted,  contemplate 
that  where  a  switch  engine  is  double-crewed,  that  each  of  these 
crews  shall  receive  preparatory  time  I 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir,  I  think  that  rule  contemplates  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  an  engine  on  switching  service, 
which  the  day  man  takes  charge  of  at  7  o'clock  in  the  morning, 
and  turns  over — assuming  that  he  is  relieved  at  noon,  has  a 
couple  of  hours  or  an  hour  at  noon,  assuming  that  he  turns  it 
over  at  7  o'clock  in  the  evening  direct  to  the  other  engineer, 
each  of  those  men  will  receive  an  arbitrary  of  half  an  hour,  in 
addition  to  the  time  that  they  worked  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes.  Well,  you  take  a  double-crewed  yard 
engine,  where  they  are  working  24  hours,  there  is  some  time  in 
each  twelve  hours'  period  that  there  has  got  to  be  some  repairs 
or  some  supplies  put  on  that  engine.  Now,  the  reason  that  we 
ask  to  have  that  rule  apply  there,  the  engineer  has  got  to  pre- 


252 

pare  that  engine  some  time  during  his  twelve  hours,  and  while 
he  might  not  make  those  repairs  when  he  went  on  duty,  he 
might  get  right  on  the  engine. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  repairs  do  you  refer  to  that  are  done 
now  by  any  engineer? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  you  have  got  to  get  sand;  you  have  got 
to  get  coal;  you  have  got  to  get  water;  you  have  got  to  get  fuel 
and  lubricators.  You  know  each  engineer  has  got  his  own 
share  of  oil.  He  has  got  to  use  that  during  his  trip.  He  has 
got  to  make  repairs.    He  has  got  to  do  work  on  that  engine 

Mr,  Sheean:  On  what  road  does  the  engineer  get  the  sand 
and  get  the  water? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Why,  a  great  many  of  them;  a  great  many 
railroads.  You  are  speaking  about  double-crewed  switch  en- 
gines now,  you  understand. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Where  they  both  work  the  full  twelve  hours. 
You  were  limiting  your  statement  about  repairs  that  they  did 
to  the  case  of  a  double-crewed  switch  engine? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  on  twelve  hour  shifts? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  no  matter  how  they  did  it,  Mr.  Cadle, 
on  those  two  twelve  hour  shifts  each  of  the  crews  would  have  to 
be  paid  thirty  minutes  in  addition  to  the  full  twelve  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  no  matter  what  part  of  the  time 
was  given  to  this  preparation,  or  how  you  divided  up  the 
work  between  them,  there  would  have  to  be  an  arbitrary  half 
hour  given  to  each  crew  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  the  case  of — if  any  of  the  roads  in 
the  West  got  sufficiently  prosperous  to  have  three  crews,  as 
they  do  in  some  of  the  busy  roads  in  the  East,  each  of  the  engi- 
neers would  get  eight  and  a  half  hours  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  is  no  escape  from  that  preparatory 
time  as  to  the  turning  over  of  the  engine  from  one  engineer  to 
another,  that  is  arbitrary,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:    In  all  cases? 


253 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  I  think  you  said  the  other  day  that 
preparatory  time  had  originally  been  intended,  or  was  intended 
to  cover  the  payment  for  all  the  time  that  a  man  actually 
worked? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  if  the  roads  propose  to  put  in  effect — 
any  road  which  pays  the  engineer  all  his  time  from  the  time 
he  is  required  to  report  for  duty  until  he  is  finally  released  from 
duty,  that  is  a  fair  rule,  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  is,  where  it  does  not  interfere  with  your  one 
hundred  miles  or  less. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  not  talking  about  any  particular  way  in 
which  you  get  at  it,  Mr.  Cadle,  but  a  rule  which  does  pay  the 
engineer  and  fireman  for  all  of  his  time  from  the  time  he  is  re- 
quired to  report  until  he  is  finally  released,  is  a  fair  rule. 

Mr.  Cadle :  In  my  example,  or  in  my  presentation  of  that 
the  other  day,  it  was  in  regard  to  computing  any  time  on  the 
minute  basis:  I  stated  that  there  was  no  good  reason  why  I 
should  work  thirty  minutes  for  a  railroad  company  for  nothing. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  you  stated  at  the  same  time  there  was 
no  good  reason  why  the  railroad  should  pay  you  for  thirty 
minutes  that  you  did  not  work,  Mr.  Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:    You  are  still  of  that  mind,  are  vou? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  am  still  of  that  mind  so  far  as  computing  the 
time  of  an  engineer  on  a  minute  basis,  because  it  will  pay  him 
for  all  of  the  time  that  he  works,  and  he  will  give  the  company 
full  sixty  minutes  of  his  service  for  an  hour's  overtime.  That 
is  the  proposition  that  I  was  talking  on  the  other  day.  I  always 
believed  that  was  fair,  and  I  still  believe  it  is  fair. 

Mr.  Sheean:  "Without  the  detail  of  any  particular  rule, 
Mr.  Cadle,  if  provision  is  made  whereby  the  engineer  is  paid  for 
all  of  his  time  from  the  time  he  is  required  to  report  for  duty 
until  he  is  finally  released,  such  a  rule  would  be  a  fair  rule. 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  would  not  be  a  fair  rule  under  the  one  hun- 
dred miles  or  less,  ten  hours  or  less.  That  would  dispose  of  the 
rule  entirely,  if  you  established  a  rule  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Sheean :    Well,  Mr.  Cadle,  do  you  wish  to  be  understood 


254 

as  taking  the  position  that  the  engineer  or  fireman  should  be  paid 
for  more  than  the  time  that  he  is  on  duty? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  may  amount  to  more  in  miles  than  it  does  in 
time  that  he  is  on  duty,  and  why  should  he  not  be  paid  for  it  1 

Mr.  Sheean:  Giving  him  the  option  always  to  take  either 
time  or  miles,  whichever  yields  him  the  greater  pay? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But,  if  he  is  assured  full  pay  for  every  min- 
ute from  the  time  he  is  required  to  report  for  duty  until  finally 
released,  is  not  that  rule,  or  a  rule  which  does  guarantee  him 
pajonent  for  every  minute,  a  fair  rule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  would  be  a  departure  from  the  principle  of 
computing  an  engineer's  time  entirely.  From  the  inception  of 
your  first  agreement,  that  would  be  a  departure,  because  we 
say,  ''One  hundred  miles  or  less,  ten  hours  or  less,  shall  con- 
stitute a  day's  work."  Now,  you  can  take  in  your  railroads 
in  the  western  country,  or  any  iDart  of  this  country,  and  an 
engineer  earns — the  greatest  portion  of  his  time  was  allowed  on 
the  mileage  basis.  Now  then,  whenever  you  go  to  work  and  I 
have  got  a  contract  with  you  to  draw  a  freight  train  one  hundred 
miles  or  less,  ten  hours  or  less,  for  a  certain  amount  of  money, 
when  I  draw  that  freight  train  that  one  hundred  miles,  I  might 
do  it  in  ten  hours  or  I  might  do  it  in  two  hours.  If  I  do  it  in 
two  hours  I  give  you  the  full  one  hundred  miles,  and  whenever 
you  put  any  work  on  me  that  will  interrupt  my  chances  of  mak- 
ing money  by  making  miles,  then  you  reduce  my  earning  capacity. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  a  schedule  makes  provision,  Mr.  Cadle,  for 
paying  for  every  minute  of  a  man's  time  from  the  time  he  re- 
ports for  duty  until  he  is  relieved,  and  also  gives  him  a  guarantee 
to  pay  him  for  every  mile  that  he  runs,  no  matter  what  the  time 
may  be,  guaranteeing  both  payment  for  the  time  he  makes  and 
letting  him  elect  whichever  will  yield  him  the  greater  pay,  is  he 
fairly  compensated?  I  am  not  talking  about  what  rates  should 
be  applied. 

Mr.  Cadle :  He  is  not  compensated  under  the  rules  we  are 
working  under.  It  would  not  be  a  fair  rule,  because  it  would 
destroy  the  rules  you  have  been  building  up  for  thirty  years, 
that  an  engineer  has  been  drawing  these  different  times  to  make 
up  a  month's  pay. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  was  not  talking,  Mr.  Cadle,  about  what  rate 


255 

should  be  applicable  to  any  minute  or  to  any  part  of  the  trip :  but 
if  a  rule  is  provided  whereby  a  man  is  fairly  and  adequately 
paid  for  every  minute  from  the  time  he  is  required  to  report 
for  duty  until  he  is  finallj^  released,  if  such  a  rule  is  a  fair  rule, 
without  splitting  into  segments  different  parts  of  his  work, 

Mr.  Cadle :     It  is  a  fair  rule  yes,  if  you  don 't  split  it  up. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  it  is  the  practice,  is  it  not,  Mr.  Cadle — 
has  been  generally  the  practice  and  is  now  generally  the  practice, 
that  the  engineer  and  firemen  take  their  engines  at  the  round- 
house at  the  time  of  the  beginning  of  their  run,  and  usually  de- 
liver it  at  some  designated  place  at  the  completion  of  the  run? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  as  a  part  of  the  day's  work  that  has  been 
in  vogue  all  these  years,  it  includes  ordinarily  all  the  work  that 
he  has  done  from  the  time  that  he  goes  to  work  until  he  delivers 
his  engine  on  this  designated  track  at  the  end. 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  you  do  not  find  the  schedules  that  way. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  his  work,  Mr.  Cadle,  is  all  comprised 
within  that  period? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  great  majority  of  the  railroads  in  the  west- 
ern country  are  not  paying  anything  to  an  engineer  for  prepara- 
tory time.  They  call  him  to  go  on  duty  at  a  certain  time,  and 
they  say  that  his  time  begins  with  the  departure  of  the  train; 
not  the  time  that  he  went  on  duty.  At  the  time  of  the  departure  of 
the  train:    That  is  when  he  commenced  to  earn  money. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  talking,  Mr.  Cadle,  about  a  schedule,  or 
a  rule,  which  assures  a  man  pay  for  every  minute,  from  the  time 
he  is  required  to  report  for  duty,  whether  he  did  anj^thing  or  not, 
and  continuing  to  pay  him  until  he  is  finally  released.  If  rates 
commensurate  with  that  kind  of  service  are  given,  that  is  a  fair 
basis  for  paying  the  man,  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  He  will  never  end  a  day,  nor  he  will  never  begin 
one,  if  you  put  a  rule  of  that  kind.  He  would  go  on  a  job  the 
first  of  the  year  and  get  off  the  end  of  December,  because  the 
railroads  will  work  him  in  continuous  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  there  any  misapprehension  now  between 
the  men  and  the  railroads  as  to  when  a  man  goes  on  duty  at  the 
beginning  of  a  trip  and  when  he  goes  off  duty? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  sir,  the  schedules  pretty  well  provide  for 
that. 


256 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  it  is  pretty  generally  understood  as  to 
when  a  man  is  required  to  report  for  duty  and  when  he  is  finally 
released  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir.    But  in  the  absence  of  that  rule — 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  I  say  at  the  present  time,  and  during 
the  last  three  years,  there  is  not  any  misunderstanding  as  to 
when  a  man  goes  on  duty  and  when  he  is  released,  is  there! 

Mr.  Cadle:  Their  schedules  provide  when  they  are  sup- 
posed to  go  to  work,  yes,  sir,  and  their  schedules  provide  when 
they  begin  to  earn  money. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  and  if  the  provision  was  made  that  he 
was  paid  for  every  minute  of  the  time  that  he  was  on  duty,  there 
would  not  be  any  misunderstanding  as  to  when  he  went  on  duty? 
There  is  no  difference  by  virtue  of  that  fact,  from  present  prac- 
tice, is  there? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Is  there  in  any  schedule  that  you  know  of  any 
difference  because  of  weights  on  drivers  in  switching  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  think  there  are  a  few  schedules  that  make  a 
difference  in  the  size  of  the  cylinder  or  in  the  weight  on  drivers, 
but  I  do  not  recall  just  what  they  are.  There  is  a  differential, 
yes.  The  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul  right  here  in  the  city,  I 
think,  makes  a  differential  in  switching  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Based  on  weights  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  I  think  so,  weights  on  drivers  or  size  of 
cylinders. 

Mr.  Sheean:  About  the  delays  to  which  you  adverted  on 
direct  examination.  The  rule  as  proposed,  both  as  to  initial  and 
final  terminal  delay,  so  called,  covers  all  of  the  time  between 
the  movement  from  the  depot  in  passenger  service,  down  to  the 
roundhouse? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Whether  there  be  any  real  delay  such  as  you 
have  described  here  through  blocking  of  the  yard  or  otherwise? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Even  though  moved  in  the  most  expeditious 
manner? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     From  the  station  to  the  roundhouse? 


257 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  if  they  ask  them  to  perfonn  a  service,  we 
are  asking  for  pay  for  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :     So  that  that  is  to  be  separate  from  the  road 
trip  in  every  instance! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     If  they  are  required  to  go  down  to  the  round- 
house with  their  engine  and  deliver  it  to  the  roundhouse  force? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  time  must  be  paid  for? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Separate  from  the  trip  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  under  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  applies  to  runs  that  are  made  in  two, 
three  or  four  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  applies  to  all  branch  lines? 

Mr.    Cadle:     Yes,   that  terminate   at  these  points,  where 
there  is  not  a  special  rate  fixed,  or  a  special  rule  to  govern. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  applies  to  a  200  mile  run,  where  a  man 
draws  pay  for  two  days  for  making  the  run  in  four  or  five  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Do  you  know  the  run  between  Chicago  and 
Burlington  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yea. 

Mr.  Sheean :     What  is  the  length  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Do  you  mean  those  mail  runs  ? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes. 

Mr.  Cadle :     Between  three  and  four  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean:     How  many  miles? 

Mr.  Cadle:     207. 

Mr.  Sheean :     The  man  makes  the  run  in  between  three  and 
four  hours,  does  he  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  think  so.    I  do  not  know  just  the  exact  sched- 
ule, but  I  should  judge  so. 

Mr.  Sheean :     He  draws  tw^o  days '  pay  for  those  four  hours ' 
work? 

Mr.  Cadle:     He  draws  the  207  miles. 

Mr.  Sheean:  A  little  more  than  is  fixed  at  what  you  call 
two  days '  pay.    When  you  speak  of  a  four  hour  day  or  a  five  hour 


258 

day,  he  draws  a  little  over  twice  that  day  that  you  speak  of  for 
that  run? 

Mr.  Cadle :  He  makes  it  in  miles ;  he  does  not  make  it  in 
hours. 

Mr.  Sheean :  No,  but,  Mi .  Cadle,  he  gets  the  same  pay  as 
if  he  had  worked  twenty  hours  for  it,  when  you  convert  it  in 
that  way? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  we  get  pay  for  200  miles.  We  run  that 
200  miles  say  in  four  hours,  and  we  get  paid  the  mileage  rate, 
and  not  for  the  four  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Without  attempting  to  debate  with  you  on 
that,  all  I  mean  is  this :  On  that  run  where  the  man  now  makes 
the  miles  between  here  and  Burlington  in  less  than  four  hours, 
this  schedule  if  adopted  would  require  the  company  to  pay  to 
that  man  for  tliat  four  hour  trip,  first,  thirty  minutes  additional 
time  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Then  if  he  took  his  engine  at  the  roundhouse, 
an  arbitrary  allowance — or  I  will  strike  out  the  word  "arbi- 
trary"— but  pay  for  the  time  from  the  roundhouse  to  the  station. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  the  rule  contemplates  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  at  the  other  end  the  time  from  the  pas- 
senger depot  to  the  roundhouse  where  he  delivers  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Whether  there  was  any  delay  at  either 
terminal  or  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  the  rule  contemplates  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  also  provides  that  if  at  the  beginning  of 
that  run  of  200  miles,  in  order  to  meet  this  mail  train  or  express 
train  or  whatever  it  was,  he  was  held  here  45  minutes  at  the 
station,  but  arrived  on  time  at  the  other  end  of  the  run,  he  would 
also  receive  that  45  minutes  in  addition  to  the  miles,  when  he 
was  on  duty  altogether  six  hours  from  the  time  he  reported  till 
he  was  relieved? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  do  not  understand  how  he  gets  the  45  minutes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     He  is  45  minutes  late  getting  out  of  here. 

Mr.  Cadle :  Oh,  I  understand  you — yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     He  comes  in  on  time  at  Burlinsrton. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Under  this  projwsal,  in  addition  to  paying 


259 

him  for  the  207  miles  you  pay  him  that  45  minutes  initial  termi- 
nal delay,  do  you  notf 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     There  would  be  no  way  of  avoiding  that  f 

Mr.  Oadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  preparatory  time  and  this  initial  ter- 
minal delay  applies  also  to  all  suburban  runs? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  do  not  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  think,  then,  that  this  statement  made 
here  that  Article  6  shall  not  apply  to  suburbans  should  also  be 
made  as  to  Article  7  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Wait  a  minute.  The  preparatory  time,  in  my 
judgment  would  apply  to  the  initial  trip  but  it  would  not  apply 
to  every  trip  that  the  man  goes  out.  A  man  might  get  ready 
three,  four  or  five  times  in  one  day  on  a  suburban  train,  but  I 
believe  the  rule  should  be  applied  to  the  initial  trip  and  to  the 
final  trip. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  the  initial  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Getting  from  the  roundhouse  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  and  the  final. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Assuming  that  in  one  of  the  suburban  runs, 
after  his  first  run  in  at  noon  he  takes  the  engine  out  to  the 
roundhouse  at  26th  street  and  goes  home  to  dinner,  and  then 
on  his  return  after  dinner  he  takes  the  engine  at  26th  street 
and  brings  it  do^vn  to  Randolph  street  to  start  out,  does  he 
draw  pay  for  that  delay  between  26th  street  and  Randolph 
street? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  I  think  I  explained  that  pretty  thoroughly, 
that  in  my  judgment  that  rule  would  apply  to  the  first  trip 
going  on  duty  in  the  morning,  and  the  closing  of  the  final  trip  in 
the  evening.  I  do  not  believe  the  preparatory  time  should  be 
counted  on  the  intermediate  trips. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  not  talking  about  the  preparatory  time. 
I  am  talking  about  initial  and  final  delay. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Initial  delay — take  any  one  of  them — 

Mr.  Sheean :  Then  if  he  is  delayed  on  any  one  of  his  runs 
that  day,  so  that  he  does  not  start  out  on  time  on  any  one  of  the 
shorter  runs,  do  you  include  there  the  initial  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 


260 

Mr.  Slieean :     He  would  draw  that  on  each  one  of  the  runs  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  not  on  each  one  of  the  runs — just  on  the 
first  run,  just  one. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  would  be  necessary  to  have  some  note  or 
modification  of  this  rule  6  as  drafted,  would  it  not,  to  exempt 
suburban  service  from  it  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  As  I  understood  it,  the  engineers  have  already 
written  such  a  note. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  note  as  read  into  the  record  is  that  it 
does  not  apply  to  Article  7,  automatic  release.  I  am  now  in- 
quiring about  Article  6.  The  only  note  that  we  have  read  into 
the  record  is  the  one  that  pertains  to  Article  7.  I  am  now  in- 
quiring about  Article  6,  Mr.  Cadle.  Is  it  your  judgment  that 
that  note  or  explanation  should  be  made  applicable  also  to 
Article  6? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  if  it  does  not  include  suburban  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  about  turn-around  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  rule  provides  how  turn-around  passenger 
service  shall  be  paid. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Which  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Rule  1 — passenger  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then  I  am  not  sure  that  I  understood  you 
this  morning.  I  thought  that  as  to  Article  1,  the  five  hour  day 
you  spoke  of,  the  100  miles  or  less,  it  was  your  thought  that  on 
turn-arounds  an  exception  should  be  made. 

Mr.  Cadle :     On  suburban  trains  ? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Suburban  only,  but  not  branch  lines. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  told  you  that  there  were  schedules  where 
there  was  an  exception  made  for  short  turn-around  passenger 
service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  understood  you  to  say  you  knew  of  no 
schedule  having  a  provision  of  the  five  hour  day,  and  which  ap- 
plied to  turn-around  passengers,  in  which  there  was  not  an  ex- 
ception as  to  the  turn-around  passengers. 

Mr,  Cadle:  There  are  different  rules  governing  the  turn- 
around passenger  service.  Where  a  man  makes  round  trips, 
there  are  certain  rules  that  govern  that  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  I  wanted  at  this  time  was  whether  Arti- 
cle 6  applied  to  turn-around  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  think  we  have  furnished  the  Managers '  Com- 


261 

mittee  with  a  modified  rule  in  regard  to  that  turn-around  service. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  not  in  this  submission,  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  but  to  answer  your  question,  it  appears  to 
me  that  we  have  made  some  concessions  in  that  to  the  Managers' 
Committee. 

Mr.  Sheean:     In  this  proposal? 

Mr.  Cadle :  In  regard  to  the  provision  of  Article  1  apply- 
ing in  turn-around  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Just  to  make  that  clear,  what  exception  do 
you  say  should  be  made  in  Article  1  as  to  turn-around  passenger 
service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  a  great  many  things  that  would 
enter  into  that,  that  would  make  me  entirely  incompetent  to  go 
to  work  and  state  what  should  be  done  to  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  as  now  drafted  Article  1  as  well  as  Arti- 
cle 6  does  cover  and  apply  to  all  turn-around  passenger  service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :      No  matter  how  short  it  may  be  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     It  does  cover  all  branches'? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     It  covers,  for  instance,  one  branch  on  the 
Burlington  that  I  happen  to  be  familiar  with,  between  Galena- 
and  Galena  Junction,  three  miles  long! 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  where  the  one  crew  is  up  and  down, 
doing  that  work,  four  or  five  times  a  day? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is  a  branch  line  too,  and  not.  suburban. 
The  automatic  release  would  apply  to  that,  too,  would  it,  I  mean 
under  these  articles  as  submitted! 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  a  great  many  of  them  where  it  would 
be  a  hard  matter  to  affect  a  man's  turn,  first  in  and  first  out, 
where  there  is  only  one  man  on  the  job. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  he  begins  a  new  day  after  he  arrives  at 
his  terminal  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     If  he  runs  far  enough. 

Mr.  Sheean:  How  far  does  he  have  to  run  before  he  is 
automatically  released  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     If  he  affects  other  men,  if  he  goes  out  and 


262 

comes  back,  it  does  not  make  any  difference;  there  is  no  limit 
on  the  distance. 

Mr.  Sheean:     If  he  does  not  affect  any  other  man? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Then  he  has  got  to  go  out  again. 

Mr.  Sheean:    But  does  a  new  day  begin  when  he  goes  out? 

Mr.  Cadle:     It  does,  under  automatic  release. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  covers  even  those  three  mile  branches, 
as  now  drafted? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  rule.  Article  7,  automatic  release  and 
tie-up,  to  which  we  have  just  referred,  w^ould  cover  all  such 
cases  as,  for  instance,  a  switching  crew  going  out  a  short  dis- 
tance to  help  in  a  disabled  passenger  train? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Were  you  called  upon  a  switching  crew  that 
was  working  in  the  yard? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  to  go  out  a  thousand  feet  beyond  the 
yard  limits  and  bring  in  a  disabled  passenger  train. 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  sir,  the  automatic  release  would  not  apply. 
He  would  not  be  done  with  his  job  when  he  came  in. 

Mr.  Sheean:    He  would  not  be  done  with  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  they  would  put  him  back  in  the  yard 
switching. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Would  he  draw  a  day's  pay  for  the  road  trip? 

Mr.  Cadle:     He  would,  under  some  of  the  schedules,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  am  talking  about  this  schedule  that  is  pro- 
posed here. 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  that  man  is  automatically  released,  he 
surely  comes  within  the  meaning  of  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  want  to  get  at  just  what  this  rule  would 
do  to  operations  of  that  sort.  There  would  be  a  day  paid  for 
each  of  any  number  of  such  trips  that  might  be  made  on  the 
road,  if  there  happened  to  be  more  than  one? 

Mr.  Cadle:     If  the  automatic  release  would  apply,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  what  I  am  trying  to  ascertain.  You 
are  a  practical  man,  who  have  dealt  with  many  interpretations, 
for  many  years.  I  want  to  know  whether  or  not  this  rule,  as 
drafted,  in  its  present  form,  would  cover  just  that  situation? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  believe  it  was  generally  agreed  by  all  con- 
cerned yesterday  that  this  was  a  new  invention,  this  ''Automatic 
Eelease." 


263 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  and  you  have  not  had  any  experience 
mth  it? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  sir.  I  know  of  only  one  road  where  there 
is  a  rule  for  an  automatic  release. 

Mr.  Sheean :     What  road  is  that? 

Mr.  Cadle :     The  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  on  that  particular  railroad,  where  they 
have  that  automatic  release,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  where  a  passen- 
ger train  got  off  the  track,  a  thousand  feet  outside  the  yard 
limits,  and  three  switch  engines,  one  after  the  other,  ran  down 
there  to  see  if  they  could  help  re-rail  the  train,  where  they  could 
be  of  no  assistance,  and  came  back  into  the  yard,  each  one  of 
those  crews,  under  this  automatic  release  rule,  claimed  a  day, 
as  this  was  outside  of  their  yard  service,  and  every  train  crew 
in  the  yard  put  in  a  claim  for  a  day,  because  of  being  run-around  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  would  not  be  a  bit  surprised  but  what  they 
they  asked  for  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Under  that  automatic  release  rule.  And  that 
is  the  only  road  of  which  you  know  that  has  the  automatic  re- 
lease rule  that  you  spoke  of  as  being  a  new  invention,  where  it 
has  been  tried  out  and  practiced? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  do  not  presume  that  the  crews  were  paid— 
those  crews  that  claimed  the  time. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  you  think  they  would  put  in  a  claim  for 
it  under  that  rule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Why,  they  put  in  all  kinds  of  claims ;  not  only 
that  claim,  but  all  classes  of  men  do  it. 

Mr.  Nagel:  An  automatic  release  and  an  automatic  raise 
are  both  asked. 

Mr,  Cadle :  No,  there  are  a  great  many  of  our  men  who  do 
not  understand  these  rules,  and  they  are  liable  to  make  almost 
any  kind  of  claims,  but  they  are  not  allowed. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Would  these  men  be  entitled  to  make  that 
claim  under  the  rule  as  you  have  proposed  it? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  do  not  think  so.    I  do  not  think  they  would. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Why  not?  If  you  were  the  manager  of  a 
railroad,  and  you  had  this  rule,  which  said  that  when  they  ar- 
rived at  their  terminal  they  would  be  automatically  released,  I 
wish  you  would  tell  us  what  reasons  you  could  give  in  reply  to 


264 

the  contention  that  you  say  would  be  made,  that  each  of  these 
crews  was  automatically  released? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  in  the  first  place,  there  was  a  train  de- 
railed within  the  yard  limits  and  the  engineers,  the  switch  engi- 
neers, were  called  upon  to  see  if  they  could  assist  in  re-railing 
that  train.  They  went  up  there  but  did  not  go  outside  of  their 
yard  limits. 

Mr.  Slieean :  Oh,  ves ;  a  thousand  feet  out  of  their  vard. 
They  made  a  road  trip. 

Mr.  Cadle :  That  is  all  right,  but  they  went  right  back  to 
work? 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  these  men  went  out  a  thousand  feet  be- 
yond the  yard  limit.  What  was  the  reply  to  the  men  on  the 
Automatic  Release  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle :    I  really  don 't  know. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Suppose  you  w^ere  there  as  the  manager  try- 
ing to  convince  them  that  their  claim  was  inequitable  and  unjust, 
and  they  pointed  to  this  provision  of  the  schedule  I 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  is  a  very  hard  matter  for  me  to  state  what 
I  would  say  to  them,  but  I  might  give  you  a  few  illustrations  of 
what  general  managers  have  said  to  me  on  such  claims  as  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  would  like,  if  you  could,  Mr.  Cadle,  to  just 
limit  yourself  to  that  particular  rule,  this  automatic  release 
rule,  and  that  particular  thing  which  happened  in  operation,  as 
to  what  escape  there  could  be  from  making  those  payments 
under  a  rule  worded  just  as  your  rule  is. 

Mr.  Cadle :    Well,  I  really  don 't  know.    I  don 't  know. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  then,  let  us  pass  the  automatic  release, 
Mr.  Cadle,  for  the  time  being. 

Mr.  Burgess:    May  I  ask  you  a  question,  Mr.  Sheean? 

Mr.  Sheean:    Surely. 

Mr.  Burgess :  In  relation  to  that  claim  you  referred  to,  I 
am  very  much  interested  to  know  whether  those  crews  got  what 
they  claimed  in  money. 

.  Mr.  Sheean:  I  will  be  very  glad  to  ascertain  that.  My  only 
information  is  from  the  negotiations  between  the  trainmen  and 
the  Northern  Pacific  management,  in  which  that  statement  was 
made  by  the  general  manager.  We  will  be  very  glad  to  wire  and 
ascertain  that. 

Mr.  Burgess :    You  need  not  do  that — 


265 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  reading  from  the  transcript  of  the  pro- 
ceedings. 

Mr.  Stone :  If  I  may  inject  the  information  into  the  discus- 
sion, I  can  say  that  the  claim  was  not  allowed. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  do  not  doubt  Mr.  Stone 's  statement  at  all  as 
to  that,  but  I  think  we  will  be  able  to  show  a  number  of  cases  of 
practically  just  as  short  runs  made  by  engineers  on  a  number  of 
roads  for  relief  of  other  crews,  getting  a  day's  pay  for  an  hour 
or  an  hour  and  a  half,  in  addition  to  their  regular  day. 

Mr.  Stone:    This  has  reference  to  the  Automatic  Release? 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  inability  to  combine  a  road  day  with  a 
yard  day  or  a  worktrain  day  with  a  road  day,  where  the  work- 
train  takes  its  engine  down  to  the  shop,  a  distance  of  twenty- 
three  miles,  at  the  end  of  a  full  day  in  the  yard,  and  they  get 
one  hundred  miles  for  taking  it  down  the  road. 

Mr.  Stone :  We  will  probably  have  some  just  as  extreme  the 
other  way,  so  the  honors  will  be  even. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  think  Mr.  Cadle  has  probably  stated  it  about 
right,  that  the  claim  will  be  made  and  resisted  so  far  as  they 
can.  The  next  rule,  Mr.  Cadle,  is  Article  8,  Held  away  from 
home  terminals.  Under  that  rule,  Mr.  Cadle,  an  enginerr  or 
fireman  arriving  at  a  terminal  other  than  his  home  terminal,  and 
required  to  take  ten  hours  rest  under  the  law,  would  have  to  be 
started  back  within  five  hours  after  his  rest  was  out. 

Mr.  Cadle :    Out  of  the  terminal? 

Mr.  Sheean:    Yes. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  under  this  rule,  if  he  was  called  at  a 
terminal,  away  from  his  home  terminal,  say  at  the  expiration 
of  fourteen  hours,  but  was  delayed  in  getting  out  of  that  ter- 
minal for  three  hours,  would  he  draw  pay  both  under  this  rule 
and  under  your  Initial  Terminal  Delay  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  you  paid  him  three  hours  for  the  initial  ter- 
minal time,  his  road  freight  pay  would  begin  on  his  departure, 
not  the  time  that  the  delay  started. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  under  this  rule,  Mr.  Cadle,  he  goes  on 
continuous  time  after  the  expiration  of  fifteen  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  do  not  think  that  they  ought  to 
claim,  that  it  would  be  equitable  to  claim,  that  a  man  drawing 


266 

pay  for  terminal  delay  should  also  be  paid  under  this  rule, 
because  he  was  held  away  from  his  home  terminal  more  than 
fifteen  hours,  and  claim  pay  under  both  rules,  in  other  words! 

Mr.  Cadle :  AVell,  I  think  if  you  call  a  man  to  go  to  work 
and  you  have  got  him  on  duty,  and  he  is  practically  on  duty, 
that  that  time  should  be  counted. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Twice? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Why,  it  should  be  counted,  yes.  You  pay  him 
for  it — that  he  was  on  duty,  because  you  pay  him  for  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  he  would  ])e  drawing  continuous  tune  un- 
der this  rule,  and  initial  terminal  delay  under  the  other  rule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Oh,  no;  initial  terminal  delay  is  the  time  you 
are  held  in  terminal  after  the  time  fixed  for  your  train.  Now, 
then,  as  I  understand  that  question  you  asked  me,  if  an  engineer 
is  held  three  hours,  if  that  three  hours  shall  count  as  part  of  his 
time  as  held  away  from  home  terminal.  You  have  put  the  man 
to  work,  if  he  earns  terminal  delay  he  earns  that  on  his  day  and 
on  his  twenty-eight  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean :     This  one  has  shortened  up  to  fifteen  hours. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  am  just  mentioning  that  for  illustration. 
We  have  got  a  fifteen  hour  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:     In  the  west  anywhere? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  don't  know  whether  we  have  got  them  in  the 
west.    We  have  them  in  the  east. 

Mr.  Sheean :  All  I  wanted  on  that,  Mr.  Cadle,  is  that  we 
did  not  think  that  a  claim  should  properly  be  made  by  either 
an  engineer  or  a  fireman,  or  trainman,  or  anyone  else,  that  he 
was  entitled  to  pay  under  two  rules  at  the  same  time. 

Mr.  Cadle :     On  the  held  away  from  home  terminal  1 

Mr.  Sheean :     Held  away  from  home  terminal. 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  I  would  not  think  so. 

Mr  Sheean:  •  Of  those  fifteen  hours,  Mr.  Cadle,  as  much 
as  ten  hours  may  be  used  in  the  rest  period,  may  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir,  where  you  have  been  in  service  six- 
teen hours,  sixteen  consecutive  hours,  under  the  Federal  law. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  that  also  cover  the  situation  of  a  regu- 
larly scheduled  train  that  is  away  from  home  terminal;  a  way 
freight,  say,  that  does  not  run  on  schedule? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  schedules  that  we  have  made  with  a  great 
many  of  these  railroads,  provide  that  where  the  law  of  the 


267 

state  ties  them  up  and  they  cannot  move,  then  the  rule  does 
not  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  this  does  not  make  an  exception  as  to 
any  of  those  things. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Sir? 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  rule  as  proposed  does  not  make  any  of 
those  exceptions. 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir,  it  has  made  no  exceptions. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  it  make  any  exception  to  the  case 
where  there  is  a  regularly  assigned  run  that  calls  upon  one  to  be 
away  more  than  fifteen  hours'? 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  rule  does  not,  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  think  that  should  be  done,  regular 
assignments  or  bulletined  runs,  that  the  men  take,  elect  to  take, 
in  passenger  service — may  take  it  by  exercise  of  his  seniority 
rights. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Where  he  is  longer  than  that  on  his  regular 
assignment,  I  would  not  consider  that  the  rule  should  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  as  drafted,  it  does  not  contain  that 
exception  1 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  also  is  true  as  to  way  freights,  isn't  it, 
Mr.  Cadle,  that  the  way  freight  with  a  Sunday  lay-over  should 
not  be  paid  for? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  you  would  cover  under  the  head  of 
regular  assignments? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Because  the  way  freights  practically  are  reg- 
ular assignments? 

Mr.   Cadle:     Yes,   sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  then,  Mr.  Cadle,  doesn't  that  practi- 
cally get  it  down  to  the  unassigned  pool  service,  as  the  only 
case  to  which  it  should  apply? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  you  have  got  to  protect  the  men;  you 
may  go  to  work  and  make  assignments  of  runs  that  might  give 
what  you  term  a  *'try  weekly"  service,  going  up  one  week  and 
trying  to  get  back  the  next,  and  he  would  spend  all  the  money 
he  earned  going  up,  laying  up  at  the  terminal  point  trying  to 


268 

get  back,  and  when  you  get  back  home,  you  are  in  debt.     That 
is  wliat  that  rule  is  trying  to  prevent. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Those  assigned  runs  would  be  bulletined 
runs,  ordinarily  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  they  assign  men  to  run  in  different  ways, 
and  they  have  different  methods  and  different  plans  of  assign- 
ing engineers  to  runs.  You  may  assign  six,  you  may  assign 
two,  and  you  may  assign  one  to  a  regular  run. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  taking  that  very  case,  Mr,  Cadle,  that 
you  spoke  of,  this  "try  weekly,"  where  the  train  goes  three 
days  in  one  direction  and  three  days  in  the  other  direction;  do 
you  think  the  fifteen  hour  rule  should  apply  on  that  sort  of 
situation  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  think  the  fifteen  hour  rule  should  apply  so 
Ithat  men  may  be  able  to  work  at  least  part  of  every  twenty-four 
hours,  so  that  tliey  can  earn  a  living. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  on  these  rmis  where  the  business  is 
enough,  just  enough,  to  enable  the  company  to  do  it  all  with 
running  trains,  one  train  a  day,  one  way  freight  a  day,  on  alter- 
nate days,  you  think  the  schedule  should  not  permit  the  opera- 
tion of  trains  in  that  way,  unless  under  this  arrangement  they 
pay  continuous  time  when  the  man  is  at  the  other  end  of  that 
branch  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  think  a  man  should  be  held  an  unrea- 
sonable number  of  hours  away  from  home  in  the  case  you  cite. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  Cadle,  isn't  it  true  that  on  these 
short  tum-arounds,  if  you  please,  or  on  these  short  branches 
where  way  freights  are  run,  or,  in  way  freight  operation,  where 
but  six  trains  a  week  are  run,  and  those  are  regularly  sched- 
uled runs,  and  bid  in  by  the  men,  selected  by  the  men  them- 
selves, as  preferred  runs,  if  you  please,  because  of  the  light 
work,  that  an  arbitrary,  and  by  arbitrary  I  mean  an  unbendable 
rule  or  inelastic  rule  of  this  sort,  would  impose  very  severe 
burdens  upon  roads  which  operate  in  that  manner,  at  the  present 
time! 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  believe  the  rule  was  ever  contemplated 
or  framed  for  the  purpose  of  covering  runs  such  as  you  have 
stated. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  being  the  case,  Mr.  Cadle,  there  should 
be  some  reasonable  exception — you  and  I  won 't  debate  what  that 


269 

exception  should  be,  but  there  should  be  some  reasonable  ex- 
ception to  cover  a  situation  such  as  here  described. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  the  end  can  you  tell  us  any  service 
other  than  the  unassigned  pool  service  in  which  this  rule  should 
be  applicable? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  there  are  cases  where  men  take  light 
engines  that  are  going  from  one  district  to  another;  there  is  a 
case  where  that  rule  should  apply,  so  that  the  men  could  get  back 
home.  Now,  it  is  the  custom  of  railroads,  a  great  many  railroads, 
where  a  man  takes  a  new  engine  out,  that  they  are  going  to  de- 
liver to  another  division,  they  generally  hold  him  over  to  takeb 
an  engine  that  is  going  to  the  shop  for  repairs.  There  are  times!? 
when  they  hold  those  men  perhaps  an  unreasonable  time,  Nowi^, 
I  believe  that  the  rule  should  apply  to  those  cases. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  unassigned  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  but  you  asked  me  if  I  knew  of  any  other 
service. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  said  unassigned  pool  service  1  This  service 
that  you  speak  of  now  is  covered  by  specific  schedule  provisions, 
from  what  you  read  yesterday. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  rule  has  no  exception  in  case  of  snow" 
blockades  or  wash-outs.  Do  you  know  of  any  schedule  that  re- 
quires a  company,  where  a  man  happens  to  be  away  from  his 
home  terminal  and  there  is  a  wash-out,  so  there  is  no  operation 
on  the  road,  that  he  goes  on  continuous  time  and  draws  pay  for 
every  hour,  no  matter  Avhat  the  casualty  has  been  that  causes 
that  situation? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  schedules  in  which  there  are  pro- 
visions for  snow  blockades  after  a  certain  number  of  hours, 
where  the  company  has  agreed  to  pay  the  engineers  a  certain 
amount  of  pay. 

Mr.  Sheean :  This  makes  no  exception  for  snow  blockades 
or  wash-outs.  At  the  end  of  fitfeen  hours  he  goes  on  continuous 
time,  no  matter  what  the  cause  may  be.  I  am  talking  about 
your  proposal,  the  language  of  the  proposal.  Article  8. 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  proposal  does  not  make  any,  but  there 
are  schedules  in  existence  on  these  railroads  that  provide  for 
payment  for  this  work  right  now. 


270 

Mr.  ISheeaii:     If  this  gives  you  better,  this  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  there  is  no  exception  as  to  snow  block- 
ades or  casualties  of  any  kind? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir,  not  in  there. 

Mr.  Sheean :  This  covers  the  case  of  a  man  being  tied  up 
under  the  law? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  think  you  have  got  a  rule  that  provides  for 
that. 

Mr.  Sheean:     This  takes  the  place  of  that,  doesn't  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  does,  so  far  as  the  pajTnent  is  concerned. 
So  far  as  refers  to  the  wages. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  so  far  as  the  continuous  time  is  con- 
cerned, too,  Mr.  Cadle,  doesn't  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  it  provides  that  you  should  be  paid  for 
all  the  time  you  are  held  up  on  the  road. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  provisions  in  this  agreement  that 
have  existed  heretofore  as  to  time  tied  up  under  the  law,  after 
a  certain  length  of  time,  provide  for  paying  a  minimum  day  for 
each  twenty-four  hours,  do  they  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  provides,  after  a  certain  number  of  hours 
rest,  that  a  man  automatically  goes  on  duty  again  and  begins 
drawing  pay. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  not  continuous  pay  such  as  you  have 
here? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I^^o,  we  have  not  been  getting  paid  for  the  rest, 
the  rest  period  has  been  deducted.  Now,  there  are  some  sched- 
ules— 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  is  the  only  schedule  provision  that  you 
know  of,  isn't  it,  Mr.  Cadle,  where  the  pay  goes  on  whether  the 
man  is  actually  resting  or  sleeping,  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  think  we  have  got  some  schedules  where  we 
pay  them  continuous  time  when  they  are  on  the  road ;  when  they 
are  asleep,  when  they  are  resting,  all  during  the  rest  period. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  was  intended  that  this  should  supplant 
the  present  agreement  as  to  the  compliance  with  the  Hours  of 
Service  Law. 

Mr.  Cadle :     So  far  as  it  refers  to  continuous  pay. 

Mr.  Sheean:     In  so  far  as  it  conflicts  in  any  way  with  the 


271 

present  agreements  as  to  the  Hours  of  Service  Law,  this  would 
supplant  it,  if  more  favorable  to  the  men? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Only  just  in  so  far  as  the  pay  is  concerned,  that 
is  all.  It  would  not  do  away  with  the  Hours  of  Service  Law; 
that  is  the  law  governing  the  period  on  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  Mr.  Cadle,  if  being  held  away  from 
home  terminals  was  in  order  to  comply  with  the  provisions  of 
the  Federal  law,  nevertheless  this  rule  would  be  the  applicable 
rule  and  would  cover  payment  for  the  rest  period? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  so  far  as  the  pay  is  concerned,  it  would 
change  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  am  not  quite  sure  that  I  understand  this 
latter  part  of  the  rule  ^'At  the  rate  per  hour  paid  for  the  last 
service  performed,"  where  you  pay  his  continuous  time  at  the 
rate  per  hour  paid  for  the  last  service  performed.  Supposing, 
that  one  of  these  engineers,  on  this  i*un  that  we  were  talking  about 
here  a  few  minutes  ago,  two  hundred  and  seven  miles  which  he 
makes  in  four  hours — supposing  he  was  unfortunate  enough  to 
have  a  wash-out  behind  him,  and  fall  under  the  operation  of  this 
rule,  how  does  this  rule  apply  as  to  the  rate  per  hour! 

Mr.  Cadle:  He  would  be  paid  for  that  two  hundred  mile 
run,  if  that  was  the  last  work  he  had  performed  before  he  was 
held  away,  he  would  be  paid  at  the  rate  for  overtime,  on  that, 
particular  run,  the  passenger  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  mean  under  your  proposition  as  a  whole, 
here ;  he  makes  that  run  in  four  hours,  he  will  say,  two  hundred 
miles  in  four  hours.  What  is  the  applicable  rate  per  hour  under 
this  provision? 

Mr.  Cadle :     It  says  pro  rata. 

Mr.  Sheean:  No,  it  says  at  the  rate  per  hour  paid  for  the 
last  service  performed. 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  We  have  paid  him  for  fifty  miles  for  the  last 
hour  he  has  worked. 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  you  have  paid  him  for  two  hundred  and 
seven  miles. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Without  knowing  the  number  of  hours  a  man 
has  worked,  or  the  miles  he  has  run,  could  you  tell  what  the 
hourly  rate  is  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     There  is  one  point  that  you  do  not  quite  bring 


272 

out  there  very  clearly.  You  take  tliat  man  on  that  two  hundred 
mile  run,  and  he  has  got  to  give  you  ten  hours  before  his  over- 
time commences.  His  overtime  does  not  commence  after  five 
hours,  where  he  runs  two  hundred  and  seven  miles;  he  com- 
mences after  ten  hours  and  twenty-one  minutes  before  his  over- 
time connnences.  While  he  has  made  his  two  hundred  and  seven 
miles,  and  he  has  earned  this  money  that  you  say  he  has  earned, 
at  the  same  time  that  company  could  hold  that  man  on  the  road 
on  that  two  hundred  and  seven  miles,  ten  hours  and  twenty- 
one  minutes  before  his  overtime  commences. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Mr.  Cadle,  I  am  talking  now — 

Mr.  Cadle:  You  want  to  know  what  amount  per  hour! 
"VNliatever  the  overtime  rate  is  what  he  would  receive  in  the  last 
service;  if  that  passenger  service  paid  him  fifty  cents  an  hour, 
w^hy,  he  would  be  paid  fifty  cents.  If  his  last  service  w^as  freight, 
if  he  came  in  on  a  freight  train,  and  that  freight  train — 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  am  not  talking  about  any  overtime  rate,  I 
am  talking  about  Article  8. 

Mr.  Cadle :  You  are  trying  to  find  out  what  the  last  service 
was  that  was  performed? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Just  take  the  case — I  went  back  to  that  case 
we  were  talking  about — suppose  that  this  man  has  made  his 
run  of  two  hundred  and  seven  miles  and  he  leaves  here  at  four 
o'clock  in  the  afternoon  and  gets  out  there  at  eight  o'clock; 
now,  a  bridge  has  washed  out  from  across  the  river  and  he  does 
not  get  back  here  for  tw'o  days.  I  am  asking,  under  this  Article 
8,  where  you  say  he  will  be  paid  at  the  rate  per  hour  paid  for  the 
last  service  performed — 

Mr.  Cadle:  Whatever  the  overtime  rate  is;  w^hatever  the 
rate  of  pay.  That  might  be  fifty  cents,  or  it  might  be  sixty 
cents — whatever  the  rate  of  pay  for  overtime  per  hour  applies, 
that  is  the  rate  of  pay  that  he  would  receive. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  it  was  a  freight  train,  it  would  be  time  and 
a  half,  w^ould  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     It  would,  if  you  established  the  rule,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  you  established  the  rule  that  time  and  a 
half  would  be  carried  into  this  Article  8,  of  Held  Away  from 
Home  Terminals? 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  want  to  get,  Mr.  Cadle,  just  what  that  means, 
that  one  class. 


•       273 

Mr.  Cadle :  It'  that  was — the  last  service  I  performed  was 
on  a  freight  train,  I  would  get  the  regular  overtime  rate  per 
liour  in  that  class  of  service  for  the  additional  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  then,  all  freight  service  being  at  time 
and  a  half  for  every  twenty-four  hours  that  this  man  is  held 
away  from  his  home  terminal  after  the  first  fifteen,  you  pay 
him  36  hours,  paid  at  the  overtime  rate,  you  understand. 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  overtime  rate,  as  I  understand  it,  applies 
to — at  terminals. 

Mr.  Sheean :  "Well,  that  is  what  I  wanted  to  get  cleared  up 
if  I  could,  Mr.  Cadle,  on  this  Article  8.  It  says  here  **at  the 
rate  per  hour  for  the  last  service  i)erformed."  Now,  if  you  say 
the  ap])licable  rate  is  the  overtime  rate,  why,  the  only  overtime 
rate  in  freight  service  is  time  and  a  half,  is  it  not! 

Mr.  Cadle :    Under  this  proposition  ? 

Mr.  Sheean :    Yes,  under  this  proposition. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  now,  I  wanted  to  know  whether  under 
Article  8,  wherever  a  man  was  held  away  from  the  home  ter- 
minal, he  would  not  only  be  paid  continuous  time,  but  be  paid 
at  the  overtime  rate  of  time  and  a  half  f 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  would  depend  entirely  where  the  service  that 
he — when  you  put  him  in  service,  whether  there  was  any  over- 
time in  connection  with  that  trip  or  not.  If  there  was  any  con- 
nection— if  there  was  any  overtime  in  connection  with  that  trip, 
you  would  pay  the  overtime  at — 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  that  is, — he  got  into  this  away  from 
home  terminal,  if  you  yjlease,  where  he  was  entitled  to  rest 
under  the  law. 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Therefore  he  was  in  overtime.  He  was  given 
the  rest,  ten  hours,  and  he  did  not  get  out  wdtliin  five  hours  after 
he  was  again  available  for  duty.  Now,  the  last  part  of  his  trip 
coming  in  was  at  the  overtime  rate  unquestionably. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  this  continuous  time  would  run  on  under 
the  overtime  rate  under  this  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Whv,  it  would  under  tlie  rule,  ves. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Under  the  rule,  yes. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 


274 

Mr.  ISlieeau:  Well,  uow,  you  are  applying  that,  Mr.  Cadle, 
to  the  last  jjart  of  his  trip.  In  the  passenger  service  you  say 
it  would  be  overtime  there  even  though  there  was  no  overtime. 
In  the  example  about  this  Burlington  run  of  207  miles  I  was  as- 
suming there,  that  he  made  that  run  without  any  overtime.  Was 
simply  held  away  because  a  Mississippi  bridge  was  washed  out. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  the  schedule  of  his  train  has  been  esti- 
mated to  be  between  three  and  four  hours  and  he  made  the  three 
or  four  hours  in  mileage,  207  miles ;  he  would  draw  no  overtime 
on  a  run  of  that  kind  until  ten  hours  and  21  minutes.  You  could 
hold  him  10  hours  and  21  minutes  between  here  and  Burlington, 
when  he  would  arrive  at  this  station,  when  all  he  would  get 
would  be  207  miles. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  am  talking  about  his  having  completed — 
he  has  completed  his  run,  and  he  is  released  at  Burlington. 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  understand  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Completed  it  on  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  after  he  is  iisleep  there  the  bridge  is 
washed  out. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  we  cannot  get  him  back! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  More  than  15  hours  has  gone  bv  before  he 
can  be  brought  back  at  all.  Now,  he  is  entitled  to  some  pay 
under  this  rule,  Ijecause  being  away  more  than  the  fifteen  hours 
he  is  entitled  to  pay.  What  I  was  trying  to  get  at  in  this  rule 
is  just  what  pay  does  he  get  ?  It  is  clear  that  he  gets  pay,  but 
at  what  rate  per  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle :     The  last  service  that  he  came  in  on. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  now,  the  last  service  that  he  came  in 
on  was  207  miles,  run  in  four  hours. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes.    His  overtime — 

Mr.  Sliooan :     He  had  no  overtime,  he  was  on  time. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  understand  that,  but  we  will  say  he  had 
overtime. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Let  us  get  it  both  ways  if  you  want  it  that 
way.  Let  us  have  it  first  when  he  made  the  run  on  time,  there 
was  not  anv  overtime.  He  has  made  the  run  regularlv  and  on 
time,  and  he  is  in  here.     This  casualty  happens  after  he  is  in 


275 

bed.  Now,  he  is  held  away  from  the  home  terminal  more  than 
fifteen  hours,  and  we  have  to  pay  him  some  money,  and  we  have 
to  pay  him  under  this  rule  at  the  rate  per  hour  for  the  last 
service  performed.    How  much  per  hour  is  he  entitled  to? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Whatever  the  rate  of  the  overtime  is  in  that 
class  of  service  under  the  different  schedules. 

Mr.  Sheean:     We  haven't  any  schedule  except  this. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Well,  you  have,  you  have  a  whole  lot  of  them. 

Mr.  Sheean:     I  mean  we  are  paying  him  under  this. 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  you  w^ould  pay  him  under  that,  you  would 
pay  him  time  and  a  half. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Time  and  a  half? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Time  and  a  half  at  the  overtime  rate  in  pas- 
senger service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  it  is  true,  is  it  not,  that 
engineers  and  firemen  are  ordinarily  not  tied  up  between  their 
terminals  except  in  case  of  some  casualty  or  unforeseen  accident 
there  under  the  law^? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  were  numerous  cases  where  engineer 
and  fireman  were  tied  up  between  terminals  before  we  put  a  rule 
in  there  that  required  the  company  to  either  run  them  in  or 
pay  them  for  those  tie-ups. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  I  am  talking  about  the  situation  now 
and  for  the  last  three  years,  the  practice  as  exists  now  and  has 
existed  for  three  years,  that  crews  are  not  ordinarily  tied  up 
between  their  terminals  except  in  the  case  of  wash-outs  or 
casualties  of  some  kind? 

Mr.  Cable:  No,  we  find  that  there  are  a  number  of  rail- 
roads where  they  work  a  crew  up  to  the  sixteen  hour  limit  and 
tie  them  up,  and  then  work  them  another  sixteen  hours,  or 
fourteen  hours,  and  tie  them  up.  I  think  we  could  show  cases 
here  where  they  have  been  tied  up  three  and  four  times  from 
the  time  they  left  their  usual  terminal  until  they  arrived  at  their 
final  terminal — destination. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is,  in  case  of  wrecks  or  wash-outs? 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  were  they  doing  to  get  a  combination 
of  sixteen  and  fourteen  hours  going  from  one  terminal  to 
another? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Hauling  tonnage,  getting  them  up  those  hills. 


'276 

Mv.  Slu'caii:  .Vnd  you  lliiiik  tliat  yon  have  an  instance  of 
aroinij:  from  one  terminal  to  another  without  anv  casualty  or 
break-down  or  anything  of  the  sort,  in  which  there  is  sixteen 
hours,  ten  hours'  rest,  and  then- another  fourteen  hours  before 
getting'  to  another  terminal? 

Mr.   Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Slieean:     Within  the  last  three  years? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  can  you  answer,  Mr.  Cadle,  whether  or 
not  it  is  ordinarily  the  case  that  crews  are  not  tied  between  the 
terminals  except  to  give  comjiliauce  with  the  sixteen  hour  law 
or  in  case  of  casualty  or  accident? 

Mr.  Cadle:  As  a  general  rule,  the  railroad  companies  do 
not  tie  them  up. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  this  xVrticle  8,  Mr.  Cadle,  intended  to  apply 
to  work  trains  regularly  assigned  between  terminals  for  a  period 
of  several  weeks? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Article  8? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes.  That  is  the  Held  Away  from  Home 
Terminal. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  tliink  it  is  intended  to  apply  to  work 
trains,  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     There  is  no  exception,  however,  in  the  rulel 

Mr.  Cadle:     No. 
/^\lr.  Sheean:     But  work  trains  should  be  excepted. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Oh,  yes. 

]Sf r.  Slieean :  What  about  snow  plows ;  they  should  be  ex- 
cepted also? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  think  so,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yv'ell,  what  about  work  trains  tied  up  between 
terminals  under  the  preceding  rule.  Article  7? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  don 't  understand  your  question.  Ask  it  again, 
please. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  the  case  of  work  trains  that  are  tied  up, 
regularly  assigned  to  do  work  in  between  terminals,  tied  up  reg- 
ularly every  niirht  between  terminals,  would  they  fall  under  Arti- 
cle 7? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir,  where  they  are  tied  up  every  night. 

Mr.  Sheean :    Although  that  is  their  regular  assignment  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 


277 

Mr.  Slieoan :     Would  you  pay  them  continuous  time? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Slieean :  Then  there  should  be  some  exception  made  as 
to  work  trains  under  the  last  paragraph  of  Article  7,  should 
there  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Article  7,  as  I  understand  the  last  ])aragTaph, 
it  contemplates  that  where  you  will  work  a  work  train  crew  six- 
teen hours,  and  he  has  got  to  tie  up  for  a  rest,  that  you  will  pay 
him  continuous  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  this  does  not  sav  anvthing  about  tied 
u})  for  a  rest,  does  it?  Tied  up  for  any  reason  between  termi- 
nals, as  it  is  worded.  Is  it  your  understanding,  Mr.  Cadle,  that 
there  could  be  interlined  after  the  words  ''tied  up"  the  words 
"for  rest"  there,  and  that  is  the  proper  interpretation  of  the 
rule.     ''Engineer  and  fireman  tied  up  for  rest." 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  don't  see  how  the  rule  could  apply  oth- 
erwise. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  vou  mean,  Mr.  Cadle,  is,  that  you  do 
not  think  it  ought  to  apply  to  work  trains  that  are  regularly 
assigned? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Why,  where  they  are  getting  their  regular  rest. 
A  terminal  of  a  work  train  is,  as  I  understand  it,  where  he  Jias 
fixed  the  same  terminal  for  him  to  tie  up;  where  he  ties  up  for 
the  night.  But  if  he  goes  into  that  point  and  ties  up,  the  rule 
does  not  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  very  frequently  a  work  train  is  operated 
without  its  getting  into  any  terminal  at  all,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  as  I  understand,  a  terminal  is  an  ending, 
and  where  a  work  train  ends  its  day's  work  that  would  be  con- 
sidered his  tenninal. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  any  pit  work  at  all  w^ould  not  come 
under  this  rule.  That  should  be  covered  by  a  special  rule,  or 
at  least  that  this  would  not  be  applicable  to  any  ties-up  of  that 
sort  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  rule,  as  I  understand  it — what  that  second 
paragraph  is  put  in  there  for,  it  is  where  you  work  a  crew  in 
work  train  service  until  he  is  tied  up  under  the  Federal  law, 
that  he  shall  be  paid  for  the  time  so  tied  up.  That  is  my  under- 
standing of  what  the  intent  of  that  rule  is. 


278 

Mr.  Slieeaii:  AVell,  that  would  be  your  interpretation  or 
application  of  this  as  to  the  work  train,  would  it  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  that  is  my  understanding  of  the  rule, 
that  second  paragraph  of  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  he  would  draw  his  pay  during  the 
time  tied  up? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes.  If  you  don't  do  that,  he  will  lose  the  next 
day. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  it  does  have  some  application  to  work 
trains  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  we  will  turn  to  Article  9  for 
a  minute, '  *  Deadheading. ' ' 

(Whereupon,  at  4:30  o'clock  P.  M.,  December  2,  1914,  an 
adjournment  was  taken  until  10  o'clock  A.  M.,  December  3, 
1914.) 


279 


IX  THE  MATTER  OF  THE 

ARBITRATION 
hetiveen  the 
WESTERN  RAILWAYS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 
ENGINEERS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD    OF    LOCOMOTIVE    FIRE- 
MEN AND  ENGINEMEN 

under  the  Act  approved  July  15,  1913,  hy  agree- 
ment dated  August  3,  1914. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  Dec.  3,  1914. 

Met  ijursiiant  to  adjournment,  at  10  o'clock  A.  M. 
Present:     Arbitrators  and  parties  as  before. 
The  Chairman :     You  may  proceed,  Mr.  Slieean. 

M.  W.  CADLE  was  recalled  for  further  examination,  and 
having'  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  would  like,  if  the  Board  please,  to  correct  my 
testimony  of  yesterday,  where  Mr.  Slieean  asked  me  when  I  last 
ran  an  engine.  I  told  him  I  believed  it  was  twelve  or  fifteen 
years.  I  have  not  been  in  active  service  as  a  locomotive  engineer 
since  1892.  I  served  as  chairman  for  the  engineers  on  the  Mis- 
souri Pacific  and  was  available  at  all  times  to  report  for  work, 
at  any  time  they  might  call  upon  me.  I  would  like  to  have  that 
correction  made. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  afraid,  in  looking  over  some  of  my  ques- 
tions yesterdaj^,  that  the  record  may  be  just  a  little  bit  confused 
about  the  Hours  of  Service  Law  and  the  agreement  made  be- 
tween the  organizations  and  the  railroads  as  to  the  ai)plication 
of  the  Hours  of  Service  Law.  At  page  279,  of  Exhibit  Number 
2,  there  seems  to  be  set  out  in  full  the  agreement  governing  crews 
in  road  service  tied  up  between  terminals,  in  compliance  with  the 
Hours  of  Service  Law,  negotiated  April  1st,  1908,  between  the 
Order  of  Railway  Conductors,  the  Brotherhood  of  Railroad 
Trainmen,  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers  and  the 


280 

Brotliorhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen.  That  rule 
or  agreement  is  generally  in  eflt'ect  in  the  Western  territory,  is  it 
not? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  organizations  here  specified  are 
operating  under  that  rule  at  the  present  time! 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  in  so  far  as  your  request  in  Article  8 
modifies  that  agreement,  it  would  put  the  engineers  and  the  fire- 
men on  a  different  basis  than  the  other  organizations  which 
operate  under  this  agreement  of  1908? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Only  so  far  as  the  pay  for  the  actual  time  is 
concerned ;  that  would  be  the  only  change — it  would  not  change 
the  rule  at  all,  the  rule  would  still  apply.  We  are  not  asking  to 
have  the  rule  abrogated  by  any  means,  we  are  just  simply  asking 
the  one  proposition  that  the  men  will  be  paid  continuous  time 
when  they  are  tied  up. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is,  the  only  effect  would  be  that  duiing 
tlie  time  which  the  law  says  they  shall  rest,  they  shall  continue  to 
draw  pay! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  isn't  any  railroad  that  you  know  of 
now  in  which  the  time  is  j)aid  while  the  men  are  sleeping? 

Mr.  Cadle:     When  tied  up  on  the  road? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Tied  up  under  the  law. 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  think  there  are  a  few  schedules  that  they  pay 
continuous  time  when  tied  up. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Under  the  law? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Can  you  tell  us  just  what  road  that  is,  Mr. 
Cadle? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  I  cannot,  but  I  am  quite  certain  we  have 
got  in  this  book — I  think  I  noticed  one  or  two  roads  where  they 
have  continuous  time. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  to  that  extent  they  modify  this  agreement 
of  1908? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  there  is  no  modification  of  the  agreement 
at  all,  any  more  than  tlie  companies  agree  to  pay  the  men  when 
they  tie  them  up  on  the  road. 

Mr.  Sheean:    I  wish  you  would  take  a  minute  of  my  re- 


281 

quest  that  you  file  at  some  time  a  reference  to  the  schedule  under 
which  the  men  tied  up  under  the  law  are  paid  during  the  time 
they  are  sleeping. 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  under  the  last  sentence  of  Article  7  and 
also  under  this  Article  8,  Mr.  Cadle,  provision  is  made  for  the 
paj^ment  of  continuous  time.  In  the  case  of  railroads  which  have 
provisions  similar  to  the  one  in  the  Chicago  &  North  Western 
shown  at  page  266  of  this  exhibit,  which  provides  that  firemen 
will  be  permitted,  when  necessary,  to  tie  up  for  rest  after  twelve 
hours  on  duty — the  second  paragraph  of  the  Chicago  &  North 
Western  schedule,  on  that  page  266 — it  would  be  possible,  would 
it  not,  in  case  a  rule  at  all  similar  to  your  request  became 
effective,  that  firemen  might  tie  up  and  continue  to  draw  con- 
tinuous time  during  all  of  the  time  that  they  were  sleeping,  and, 
upon  resuming  duty,  go  at  once  onto  overtime? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  don 't  know  anything  at  all  about  that  rule  in 
the  firemen's  schedule.  I  don't  know  how  it  is  to  apply  or  any- 
thing of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  see  the  rule  there  before  you  in  the 
exhibit? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir,  I  see  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Offered  by  Mr.  Moore  the  other  day  as 
Exhibit  2,  and  in  all  schedules  where  there  is  a  provision  giving 
them  the  right  to  tie  up  for  rest,  if  any  such  rule  as  this  were 
adopted,  they  might  tie  up  and  draw  pay  while  they  were  sleep- 
ing? ^ 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  the  company  worked  them  fourteen  or  six- 
teen hours  and  they  tied  up  under  the  Federal  law,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  am  talking  now  about  this  particular  rule. 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that  rule.  I  do 
not  know  how  it  is  going  to  apply.  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  the 
making  of  that  rule.  I  never  saw  it  before,  that  I  know  of.  I 
do  not  know  how  it  applies  on  the  Chicago  &  North  Western 
Railroad. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  you  do  know  that  the  schedule  makes  pro- 
vision whereby  the  fireman  is  permitted  to  tie  up  after  twelve 
hours  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :    I  see  it  in  the  book  here,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  rule  if  found  in  any  schedule,  or  any 


282 

similar  rule,  in  connection  with  the  i)roposal  here  made,  would 
permit  the  tyin^  up  of  that  entire  crew;  because  you  could  not 
go  on  and  oi)erate  if  one  member  of  the  crew  exercised  his  option. 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  all  of  that  crew  would  then  be  on  con- 
tinuous time  while  they  were  sleeping,  would  they  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Do  you  mean  if  this  rule  that  we  have  got  was 
adopted? 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  connection  with  this  rule  which  remains  in 
tlie  schedule. 

Mr.  Cadle :     He  would  most  undoubtedly  be  paid  for  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  in  addition  to  that,  drawing  pay  while 
he  was  actually  sleeping,  and  being  on  continuous  time,  he  would 
draw  at  overtime  rates,  would  he  not! 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir,  I  do  not  see  where  he  would. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  a  man  is  on  continuous  time,  all  of  his  time 
counts  in  detennining  when  overtime  begins,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  do  not  think  he  would  draw  any  overtime  on 
that  in'ojiosition,  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     At  the  end  of  the  trip,  I  mean. 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  sir,  on  all  of  those  schedules — there  are  a 
great  number  of  them  on  which  they  do  not  pay  double  time  at  all. 
They  have  got  i)rovisions  in  there 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  where  anything  is  better  in  this  schedule, 
it  supersedes  all  such  provisions,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  it  is  a  question  in  my  mind  whether  that 
would  be  better  or  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:     It  is? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  if  it  was  better  to  draw  time  and  a  half 
after  a  lapse  of  ten  hours,  this  submission  of  yours,  if  granted, 
would  let  you  elect  whether  to  take  that  or  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  it  would  take  two  parties  to  make  a  bar- 
gain. I  might  think  I  was  entitled  to  it,  and  make  out  a  trip 
ticket  for  it,  but  at  the  same  time  the  company  would  not  pay 
me  for  it  if  it  was  not  covered  by  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  what  I  am  asking  is  whether,  with  this 
provision  in  the  schedule,  there  is  anything  in  your  submission, 
in  Article  8,  and  the  latter  part  of  Article  7,  that  would  i)revent 
the  claim,  or  justify  the  refusal  to  allow  continuous  time. 


283 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  do  not  know,  sir.  I  do  not  know  whether  it 
would  or  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  next  is  Article  9,  "Deadheading,"  in 
which  provision  is  made  that  engineers  and  firemen  deadheading 
on  company  business  shall  be  paid  the  same  rate  and  on  the  same 
basis  as  the  engineer  and  fireman  on  the  train  on  which  they  are 
deadheading. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  vSheean:  Does  that  contemplate  that  an  engineer  or- 
dered to  report  at  the  roundhouse,  register,  and  go  out  on  a 
particular  train,  shall  draw  the  same  preparatory  time  and  the 
same  terminal  delay  as  the  man  running  the  engine  on  the  train 
on  which  he  deadheads? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Does  it  require  the  same 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  same  payment  to  the  man  deadheading 
that  is  made  to  the  man  who  runs  the  engine. 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  man  would  not  have  any  preparatory 
time.  He  would  not  have  any  locomotive  to  prepare,  if  he  was 
deadheading. 

Mj*.  Sheean :  He  is  required  to  register  at  the  roundhouse 
— assuming  that  he  is  to  go  out  on  a  particular  train. 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  he  is  supposed  to  report  to  someone  that 
he  is  ready  for  business. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  rule  provides  that  he  shall  draw  the  same 
rate,  on  the  same  basis,  as  the  engineer  on  the  train  on  which 
deadheading? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Does  that  include  the  same  allowance  which  is 
made  by  way  of  preparatory  time 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Or  initial  or  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  might  in  the  way  of  initial  or  final  terminal 
delaj^,  but  I  do  not  see  where  an  engineer  could  claim  any  pay 
for  preparatory  time  when  he  did  not  prepare  anything,  where 
he  had  no  engine  to  prepare.  He  was  deadheading.  He  was 
going  on  a  passenger  train  or  a  freight  train. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  your  definition  of  preparatory  time,  Mr. 
Cadle,  under  Article  5,  is  that  ])reparatory  time  will  be  the 
time  engineers  and  firemen  are  required  to  be  oh  their  loco- 
motives ? 


284 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Prior  to  time  ordered  to  leave  roundhouse 
or  otlier  point? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir.  The}^  might  require  a  crew  that  was 
going  to  prepare — an  engineer,  you  would  require  him  to  be 
around  in  sufficient  time  to  prepare  his  engine.  If  you  called 
him  to  deadhead  he  would  not  have  any  of  this  work  to  do,  and 
you  would  call  him  to  be  down  at  the  station  in  time  to  go  on 
that  passenger  train,  or  freight  train,  consequently  there  would 

be  no 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  if  he  reports  at  the  roundhouse  he  does 
draw  the  terminal  delay,  does  he,  getting  from  the  roundhouse 
to  the  station? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Deadheading? 
Mr.  Sheean:     Deadheading. 
Mr.  Cadle :     No,  I  would  not  think  so. 
Mr.   Sheean:     In  case  the  train  on  which  he  deadheads 
stops  to  do  any  intermediate  switching,  does  the  man  dead- 
heading get  the  same  allowance  for  that  as  the  engineer  who 
is  operating  the  train? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  would  not  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  the  train  is  late  on  leaving  the  terminal, 
suppose  he  is  told  to  deadhead  on  the  passenger  train,  and  that 
passenger  train  is  late  in  leaving  the  terminal? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  the  company  calls  him  to  leave  on  that 
passenger  train  on  time  and  the  train  is  late,  and  there  is  any 
initial  delay,  he  should  be  paid  for  it,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     In  addition  to  the  time  or  miles  of  the  trip? 
Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  if,  as  you  answered  yesterday,  the  train 
on  which  he  is  ordered  to  deadhead  leaves  40  minutes  late,  but 
makes  up  that  time  by  the  end  of  the  run,  he  gets  initial  ter- 
minal delay  plus  the  miles  on  the  run? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  he  was  a  full  hour — if  he  had  complied 
with  the  rule;  if  the  rule  was  one  full  hour,  he  would  be  paid 
for  it,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     AVell,  Mr.  Cadle,  is  there  any  provision  in 
this  submission  here  for  the  one  full  hour? 
Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 


285 

Mr.  Sheean:  He  is  allowed  the  initial  terminal  delay  in- 
dependent of  the  time  or  miles  of  the  trip  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  on  a  deadheading  trip,  if  the  train 
on  which  he  started  out,  started  out  40  minutes  late,  he  would 
have  that  as  an  arbitrary,  and  if  it  made  it  up  on  the  run  he 
would  have  that  in  addition  to  the  miles  of  the  run! 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  the  company  called  that  man  to  report  for 
duty  and  stood  him  around  a  station  a  night  or  a  day  waiting 
for  a  passenger  train,  they  would  pay  him  for  it  under  that 
rule,  5^es,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Even  though  the  time  was  made  up  by  the 
passenger  train,  and  he  reached  the  point  at  which  he  was  to 
take  up  a  train  or  engine  on  return  trip — even  though  he  reached 
that  point  on  time? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir,  because  it  is  a  fair  rule.  The  oflScer 
of  the  company  that  I  was  working  under  calls  me ;  if  that  train 
is  late,  he  can  set  my  time  back,  but  if  he  calls  me  out  of  bed 
at  12  or  1  or  2  o'clock  to  deadhead  on  a  passenger  train,  and 
that  passenger  train  is  three  or  four  hours  late,  he  should  pay 
me  for  it,  and  that  rule  contemplates  that  he  shall  pay  me  for  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Take  the  case,  Mr.  Cadle,  that  you  spoke  of 
the  other  dav,  where  there  is  a  delav  of  40  minutes  in  the  sta^ 
tion,  loading  or  unloading  express,  and  that  30  or  40  minutes  is 
made  up  on  the  run,  so  that  the  man  going  out  deadheading, 
gets  to  the  point  where  he  is  to  take  charge  of  an  engine  at 
just  the  time  that  he  was  called  for,  he  still  would  have  this 
allowance  in  addition  to  the  miles  of  his  run? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  case  he  is  going  out  from  this  ter- 
minal, deadheading,  he  goes  into  liis  caboose  or  into  the  caboose 
for  this  deadhead  trip,  and  goes  asleep,  he  does  not  know  any- 
thing about  the  time  that  they  start  out,  and  arrives  on  time 
at  the  other  end  of  the  run,  his  pay  w^ould  be  different,  de- 
pending on  whether  that  caboose  got  out  on  time  or  did  not 
get  out  on  time,  if  this  rule  were  granted? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  how  you  are  running  that  crew. 
I  would  like  you  to  state  to  me  how  you  are  running  that  crew. 
I  don't  quite  get  you.  I  have  been  called  a  good  many  times 
to  deadhead  and  different  things,  but  I  cannot  get  your  system 
of  running  it. 


286 

Mr.  Shoean :  Well,  lie  is  called  to  deadhead  out  of  the 
Chicago  terminal  at  8  o'clock  tonight,  and  to  go  out  110  miles, 
go  out  on  a  particular  train,  which  is  due  to  leave  at  8  o'clock 
tonight — freight  train;  he  gets  down  there  at  8  o'clock  tonight; 
the  caboose  is  there;  he  has  nothing  to  do  with  reference  to 
running  the  engine  or  the  train  as  he  only  has  to  deadhead. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Why,  he  goes  and  fixes  it  up  with  the  brake- 
man  to  fix  him  a  bed,  as  a  general  thing. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Then  he  fixes  up  this  bed  at  8  o'clock? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Then  this  train  does  not  in  fact  get  out  until 
11  o'clock;  he  goes  to  sleep  at  eight. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  His  pay  would  be  different,  would  it,  dej)en- 
dent  upon  whether  that  train  pulled  out  of  that  station  here  at 
8  or  11,  no  matter  what  time  it  got  to  the  other  end  of  the  run? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  told  you  I  didn't  believe  that  the  dead- 
head time  api)lied — the  terminal  time  applied  to  where  men  were 
not  called  in  advance  of  a  train. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  he  is  called  here.  There  are  two  men 
called,  both  to  go  out  at  8  o'clock,  and  one  goes  out  at  8  and  the 
other  gets  out  at  11 ;  the  one  man  is  deadheaded  out  60  miles ; 
he  leaves  on  time  at  8 ;  he  goes  out  60  miles ;  the  other  man  only 
goes  out  40  miles ;  does  not  start  out  until  1 1 .  Now,  you  give  the 
man  w^ho  has  the  three-hour  terminal  delay  three  more  hours 
than  you  give  the  other  man,  do  you? 

Mr,  Cadle :  Why,  you  pay  him  for  the  number  of  hours  you 
keep  him  on  duty,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  They  both  w^ent  on  duty  at  8  o'clock,  and  they 
both  got  to  the  end  of  their  deadhead  run  at  the  same  time,  at  1 
o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  a  great  many  things  in  connection 
with  that  that  I  don't  think  you  are  taking  into  consideration 
at  all. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Well,  all  I  wanted 

Mr.  Cadle:  Now,  wait  a  minute.  I  want  to  show  you  the 
way  you  can  i^enalize  a  man.  If  you  go  to  work  and  call  an 
engineer  to  start  on  a  run — he  is  first  out  on  that  spare  board  or 
extra  board;  he  goes  down  there  to  go  out,  and  you  lay  him 
around  the  yard,  and  run  crews  around  him  and  everything  else. 


287 

and  at  the  end  of  the  week  he  has  not  earned  the  share  of  money 
he  is  entitled  to,  because  you  have  kept  him  lying  around 
cabooses,  and  if  you  don't  give  him  compensation  the  same  as 
the  man  who  is  running  tlie  train,  he  won't  earn  any  wages. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  I  was  trying  to  get  at,  Mr.  Cadle,  was, 
whether  or  not  two  men,  both  called  to  deadhead,  both  to  leave 
at  8  o'clock  and  to  deadhead  out  a  distance  which  would  get 
them  out  at  8  o'clock  in  the  morning,  if  they  got  them  both  to  tlie 
end  of  their  deadhead  trip  at  1  o  'clock  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  because  in  the  one  case  the  train  left 
three  hours  later  than  it  was  intended  to  leave,  it  would  draw 
more  than  the  other  men,  though  they  were  both  on  duty  for  the 
same  time? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  if  the  officers  put  them  to  work  that  way. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  even  though  they  both  were  in  the 
caboose  at  8  o'clock  here  in  Chicago! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     At  the  same  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Mr.  Cadle,  so  far  as  I  understand,  the  basis  of 
the  charge  is  either  time,  mileage  or  character  of  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Now,  in  the  case  which  has  just  been  put  to 
you,  it  seems  to  me  you  have  a  new  element;  there  is  no  addi- 
tional time,  because  the  train  arrives  at  the  proper  hour;  there 
is  no  additional  service,  because  he  sleeps,  on  tlieir  theory,  and 
there  is  no  additional  mileage,  for  the  distance  is  the  same. 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel :     Where  is  your  basis  for  an  additional  charge? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  is  on  the  terminal  delay.  If  they  call  a  man 
three  hours  before  the  train  is  due  to  leave,  the  agreements  pro- 
vide that  he  shall  be  paid ;  this  rule  provides  that  he  shall  be  paid 
for  that  three  hours.  Now  then,  he  is  held  three  hours.  It  is  a 
penalty  rule  for  the  company  not  to  call  a  man  until  they  need 
him. 

Mr.  Nagel :  It  is  true  he  is  delayed  three  hours  at  that  end, 
but  the  three  hours  are  made  up  to  him  at  the  other  end.  Where 
is  the  basis  for  the  claim? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Because,  the  rule  provides  that  this  time  shall 


288 

be  paid  separate  and  distinct  from  any  other  mileage  or  time 
made  on  the  trip. 

Mr.  Nagel :     Well  then,  do  you  endorse  that  rule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Sir? 

Mr.  Nagel :     Do  you  endorse  that  rule! 

Mr.  Cadle :  We  have  got  a  rule  of  that  character  in  a  great 
many  ditferent  schedules. 

Mr.  Park:  You  mean,  Mr.  Cadle,  you  have  a  rule  which 
permits  you  to  be  paid  for  deadheading,  but  not  a  rule  exactly 
similar  to  this  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Park:    Have  you  got  a  rule  similar  to  this? 

Mr.  Cadle :  We  have  rules  where  men  are  paid  a  terminal 
delay  allowed  with  the  deadheading;  they  have  a  deadheading 
rule  and  then  they  have  a  rule  that  they  will  be  paid  any  terminal 
delay  that  there  may  be  on  the  run,  or  any  overtime. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Cadle,  what  road  is  it  that  pays  terminal 
delay  in  addition  to  deadheading? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  did  not  say  what  road  there  was.  I  told  him 
there  were  roads  that  had  a  rule  of  that  character. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  Cadle,  the  same  as  this  other 
request,  at  your  leisure,  give  us  a  reference  to  the  schedule  of 
any  road  or  roads  which  allows  terminal  delay  as  an  arbitrary, 
in  addition  to  the  allowance  for  deadheading? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  will  not  say  "arbitrary,"  because  you  in- 
jected that  word  into  it.  That  word  has  not  been  used  in  all  of 
our  cross-examination  on  this  question, — the  word  ''arbitrary" 
has  not  been  used. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  will  withdraw  the  word  if  the  word  ''arbi- 
trary" is  offensive,  and  will  ask  you  to  file  a  reference  to  any 
schedule  which  provides,  that,  in  addition  to  the  deadhead  time, 
separate  and  distinct  from  it  and  irrespective  of  time  or  miles, 
there  shall  be  a  terminal  delay  allowance. 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  will  not  agree  to  furnish  you  anything  of  that 
kind,  but  I  will  agree  to  furnish  a  schedule  on  the  question  that 
Mr.  Park  asked  me. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  understood  Mr.  Park's  question  to  be  an 
allowance  for  terminal  delay  separate  and  distinct  from  the 
deadheading. 

Mr.  Cadle:    No;    ho  asked  me  if  there  was  anv  schedule 


289 

that  allowed  terminal  delay  on  deadhead  service,  and  I  answered 
him,  Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  then,  Mr.  Cadle,  if  you  can  file  a  refer- 
ence to  a  schedule  which  makes  provision  for  the  allowance  of 
terminal  delay,  in  case  of  deadheading,  except  where  it  runs 
into  overtime,  I  wish  you  would  do  that. 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  will  furnish  you  the  rule 

Mr.  Stone:  If  I  may  inject  here  just  a  moment,  to  save 
time,  and  save  taking  a  whole  lot  of  testimony,  I  will  read  a 
rule  into  the  record  at  this  time,  if  I  may  be  allowed  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:     I  haven't  any  objection. 

Mr.  Stone:  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul  schedule,  Ar- 
ticle 14,  reads  in  part: 

"Engineers  deadheading  on  freight  trains  will  be  x^aid  ini- 
tial terminal  delay  time,  the  same  as  the  crew  they  are  dead- 
heading with." 

Mr.  Sheean:  Will  you  read  the  Initial  Terminal  Delay 
Rule,  the  same  as  the  crew  they  are  deadheading  with  1 

Mr.  Stone:  That  answers  the  question,  as  I  understand, 
which  you  are  discussing. 

Mr.  Sheean:     No,  no;    because  the  initial  terminal  delay 
there,  I  think  you  will  find,  is  in  case  it  runs  into  overtime.. 
Just  so  that  w^e  may  have  the  two  rules  together,  I  would  like 
to  have  read  in  connection  with  that  the  rule  to  which  it  refers. 

Mr.  Stone:     I  shall  be  very  glad  to. 

**  Article  IX.  Terminal  Delayed  Time.  A.  On  the  Chicago 
&  Milwaukee  Division  and  on  all  runs  of  ninety  (90)  miles  or 
over ' ' 

Mr.  Sheean:    Passenger  now,  or  freight? 
Mr.  Stone:    It  is  terminal  delayed  time.     I  have  not  got 
quite  through  yet. 

''A.  On  the  Chicago  &  Milwaukee  Division  and  on  all  runs 
of  ninety  (90)  miles  or  over,  engineers  in  passenger  and  freight 
service,  except  work  and  construction,  shall  be  allowed  terminal 
delayed  time  for  all  time  they  are  delayed  at  initial  terminal, 
provided  the  time  delayed  is  one  hour  or  more.  When  delayed 
time  at  initial  terminal  is  paid,  trip  time  shall  commence  at  the 
actual  leaving  time  of  the  train.  Delayed  time  will  be  paid 
pro  rata  on  the  basis  provided  for  overtime." 


^90 

So  it  is  iindoiil)t«'dly  separate  and  distinct  from  the  other 
time. 

Mr.  Sheean:  On  runs  of  ninety  miles  or  over,  and  one 
hour  or  over,  of  delay.    Is  that  all  of  the  rule? 

Mr.  Stone:  No,  it  is  (juite  a  lon^-  rule,  and  it  makes  some 
exceptions  at  terminals.     Uo  you  want  the  whole  rule? 

Mr.  Sheean:     I  would  like  to  have  it,  yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     I  shall  be  glad  to  read  it. 

"Terminal  switchiui;'  time  and  terminal  delayed  time  mav 
be  computed  collectively. 

"B.  Except  at  Coburg,  Ottumwa  Junction,  Montevideo, 
Chicago  and  Milwaukee  Terminal  Districts,  where  special 
agreements  exist,  the  following  will  govern: 

"Initial  terminal  delayed  time  will  accrue  from  the  time 
called  to  dei)art  and  will  cease  when  train  starts  upon  the  track 
it  is^nade  up  on.  If,  after  starting,  the  train  is  stopped,  initial 
terminal  delayed  time  will  continue  until  such  time  as  the  train 
actually  starts  and  is  not  thereafter  stopped  in  the  terminal." 

That  is  the  full  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  speaking  yesterday  of  initial  ter- 
minal delay,  you  stated  that  initial  terminal  delay  is  the  time 
you  are  held  in  terminal  after  the  time  fixed  for  your  train. 

I  assume  by  that  you  meant  the  present  terminal  rule. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  there  in  any  schedule  now,  so  far  as  you 
know,  a  provision  for  counting  as  part  of  the  terminal  delay 
the  time  which  is  consumed  in  going  from  the  roundhouse  to  the 
outer  switch? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  there  are  railroads  which  fix  the  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:     They  fix  the  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Even  where  no  actual  delay  occurs? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  counting  all  the  time  used  in  the  neces- 
sary operation  from  roundhouse  to  outer  switch? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No;  there  is  a  schedule.  Those  Canadian 
schedules  provide  that  there  shall  be  fifteen  minutes  used  be- 
tween the  time  they  prepare  their  engine  and  to  go  to  the 
yard-^ — ^ 


291: 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  in  this  joroposition  you  count  all  of  the 
time  as  delay,  whether  there  be  any  actual  delay  or  not,  do  you 
Tjot? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  is  no  schedule  that  has  that  clause,  is 
there,  counting  as  delay  all  of  the  time  necessarily  used  in 
going  from  roundhouse  to  outer  switch? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  schedules  that  provide  for  paying 
the  man  some  kind  of  pay  for  all  the  time  that  he  is  at  the 
tei'minal. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  there  any  rule  which  calls  or  classifies  as 
terminal  delay  all  of  the  time  used  in  going  from  roundhouse 
to  outer  switch? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  schedules  that  allow  an  hour. 
Where  they  allow  an  hour  for  a  man  to  be  on  duty,  one  hour 
before  leaving  time,  there  are  schedules  that  pay  that  man  from 
the  time  he  leaves  the  pit  track,  if  he  does  not  go  out  in  one 
hour,  or  at  the  time  fixed,  that  he  is  paid  overtime  rates  for  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  an  allowance  is  made  in  the  sched- 
ule to  cover  the  necessary  and  proper  time  consumed  in  get- 
ting from  the  roundhouse  to  the  outer  switch.  That  is,  they 
have  recognized  on  those  roads  that  some  time  will  be  used 
there.  Some  fix  it  at  an  hour  and  others  at  other  periods  of 
timef 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  they  do  not  fix  any  hour  to  get  from  the 
roundhouse.  There  are  two  schedules  that  specify  that  fifteen 
minutes  shall  be  used  between  the  roundhouse  and  the  outer 
switch. 

Mr.  Sheean:  For  the  purpose  of  computing  overtime  the 
schedules  make  some  pro\T.sion  that  initial  terminal  delay  shall 
not  accrue  until  some  period  of  time  is  taken  up  in  moving  the 
train  there.  You  have  spoken  of  the  two  Canadian  roads  as 
allowing  fifteen  minutes,  and  others  as  allowing  an  hour.  Now, 
is  there  any  schedule  which  counts  as  terminal  delay  all  of 
the  time  from  the  time  the  engine  starts  from  the  roundhouse 
to  the  outer  switch? 

Mr.  Cadle :  They  do  if  they  are  out  a  specified  number  of 
hours.  Some  schedules  say  thirty  minutes  and  some  one  hour, 
and  some  fortv-five  minutes. 


292 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  trying  to  get  an  answer  to  just  the  one 
question. 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  know  what  you  are  trying  to  get,  and  I  know 
w^hat  I  am  trying  to  answer. 

Mr.  Slieean:  The  single  point  I  am  trying  to  develop  is 
whether  any  schedule  makes  the  same  provision  which  you  pro- 
pose here,  that  all  the  time  used  from  roundhouse  to  outer 
switch  shall  be  considered  terminal  delay. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  presume  you  could  find  that  in  some 
of  these  schedules.     You  can  find  almost  anything. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  wish  you  would  make  a  diligent  search  for 
that,  and  if  you  find  it,  give  us  a  reference  to  that. 

Mr.  Stone :  To  save  bringing  it  up  later,  I  will  read  it  into 
the  record  right  now,  if  I  may. 

The  Chairman:     All  right. 

Mr.  Stone:     (Reading.) 

"Canadian  Northern  Railway.     Effective  October  1,  1912. 

''Article  I.  *  *  *  (D)  Passenger  Service.  Terminal 
delay  commences  when  train  arrives  at  its  initial  terminal  as 
shown  on  time  table.  Outbound  trains  will  be  paid  from  the 
time  due  to  leave  shop  track  until  departure  of  train.  Inbound 
trains  will  be  paid  from  time  of  arrival  at  station  until  forty- 
five  minutes  after  arrival  on  shop  track.  This  in  addition  to 
actual  road  mileage  made. 

*'(E)  Freight  Service.  Road  mileage  commences  and 
ends  at  outer  switch  of  terminal  yard.  Outbound  trains  will 
be  paid  from  the  time  they  leave  shop  track  or  time  called  for 
imtil  arrival  at  outer  switch.  Inbound  trains  will  be  ])aid  from 
the  time  of  arrival  at  outer  switch  until  forty-five  minutes  after 
arrival  on  shop  track,  in  addition  to  actual  road  mileage  made. 
Outer  switch  means  the  switch  used  in  heading  into  the  yard." 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Cadle,  turning  to  this  deadheading  rule, 
does  this  rule  contemplate  the  payment  of  time  at  the  rate  here 
provided  where  an  engineer  or  a  fireman  deadheads  to  exercise 
his  seniority  rights! 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  would  say  no. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Under  what  provision  of  this  rule  would  you 
say  that  there  was  an  exception  in  that  case? 


293 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  schedules  in  effect  on  all  these  railroads, 
on  tliat  particular  point,  have  been  the  work  of  a  good  many 
years,- and  all  of  those  schedules  have  rules  fixing  that  point 
that  you  are  speaking  on  now.  They  have  a  rule  which  specifies 
how  that  deadhead  rule  shall  apply. 

There  are  a  number  of  those  schedules  that  provide  that 
a  man  will  not  be  paid  when  he  is  deadheading  to  exercise  his 
seniority  right  to  run. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then,  it  has  been  recognized  as  being  nec- 
essary to  provide  specifically  in  the  schedule  that  he  shall  not 
draw  this  pay  when  exercising  his  seniority  right? 

Mr.  Cadle :     It  has  been,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  the  absence  of  any  such  provision 
here,  what  is  there  about  this  submission  that  would  give  the 
roads  the  right  to  retain  that?  This  supersedes  all  less  favor- 
able rules. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  understand  that  this  Board  of  Arbi- 
tration is  going  to  manufacture  all  of  those  rules,  or  I  do  not 
presume  that  when  they  hand  down  their  award  they  are  going 
to  put  them  all  out  of  commission.  It  will  be  necessary  after 
they  get  the  awards,  to  get  them  put  into  effect;  and  I  have 
always  found  that  the  engineers,  and  the  company,  on  those 
deadhead  propositions,  have  always  been  very  fair.  They  have 
always  been  able  to  work  out  a  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  deadheading  rules  on  the  different 
roads  vary  to  meet  the  local  conditions  on  those  different  roads  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that,  at  the  present  time,  these  deadhead- 
ing rules  as  provided  meet  the  local  situation,  and  have  been, 
as  you  say,  fair? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  next  article  is  as  to  hostlers,  and  pro- 
vides that  at  points  where  an  average  of  six  or  more  locomo- 
tives are  handled  within  twelve  hours,  day  or  night,  hostlers 
shall  be  maintained.  In  the  case  of  a  helper  engine,  making  say 
three  trips  a  day  up  a  grade  and  back  to  the  foot  of  the  grade, 
and  the  helping  crew  relieved  at  the  end  of  each  of  those  trips, 
and  the  engine  handled  at  the  end  of  each  of  those  trips,  three 


294 

times  in  and  three  times  out  (hiring  the  day,  wouhl  that  rule 
require  the  maintenance  of  a  hostler  at  that  point? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir. 
.   Mr.  Sheean:     Where  six  engines  are  handled,  do  you  count 
an  engine  both  in  and  out? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  it  looks  to  me,  that  under  that  rule,  if  you 
had  during  a  day  six  engines  that  were  to  be  handled  at  that 
terminal,  you  would  provide  a  hostler,  but  if  there  were  not  six 
engines 

Mr.  Sheean:     It  means  six  ditferent  engines! 

Mr.  Cadle :     Oh,  I  should  say  so,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  that  doesn't  agree  with  the  inter- 
pretation  


Mr.  Cadle:     (Interrupting):     AVhich  you  place  on  it. 
Mr.  Sheean:     No,  which  the  organization  which  you  repre- 
sent ])laced  upon  the  rule  when  you  were  asked  as  to  the  meaning. 
Mr.  Cadle:     I  don't  know  anything  about  what  the  organi- 


zation  

Mr.  Sheean:  Didn't  you  participate  in  replying  as  to  the 
intent  and  purpose  of  the  rule,  when  questions  were  asked  about 
it,  or  did  you 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  didn't  quite  get  the  question. 

(Question  repeated  bj^  the  reporter.) 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  I  would  not  say  I  did.  While  I  was  at  the 
conference  a  portion  of  the  time,  I  was  away  the  greater  part  of 
the  time. 

Mr.  Sheean :  For  the  purpose  of  refreshing  your  recollec- 
tion, Mr.  Cadle,  wasn't  the  question  asked,  under  Article  10: 
"Is  an  engine  handled  in  and  out  during  a  twelve-hour  period 
counted  as  one  or  two,  for  the  purpose  of  this  rule?"  And  wasn't 
the  answer  to  that  question,  ''Two"? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  don't  know,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  if  that  answer  was  given  you  do  not 
agree  to  that  as  the  proper  interpretation  of  this  rule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  would  not  say  that  I  do  not  agree;  but  you 
wanted  to  know  what  I  thought  about  what  constitutes  six 
engines  and  asked  me  if  handling  the  same  engine  twice — you 
might  handle  an  engine  going  out  on  a  run  in  the  morning  and 
you  might  handle  it  coming  back  in  the  evening,  on  an  assigned 
run,  and  I  would  not  count  that  two  engines,  while  he  handled  that 


295 

engine  twice.  I  do  not  think  that  is  the  intent  of  the  rule.  I 
believe  the  rule  contemplates  where  there  are  six  crews  or 
engineers  coming  in  there  that  are  taken  care  of ;  they  may  handle 
them  two  or  three  tunes  in  one  day ;  but  you  M^ould  have  to  have 
your  six  engines  there. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Six  crews,  then,  you  mean? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Sometimes  we  have  two  crews  with  one  engine, 
so  we  would  not  very  well  inject  the  crews  into  it.  We  will  talk 
about  the  engines. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  you  did  have  three  crews  which  handled  six 
engines,  that  would  require  a  hostler  to  be  maintained  at  all  such 
points  I 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  they  handled  the  six  engines — if  you  had  six 
engines — we  mean  six  engines — that  is  what  it  specifies,  it  don't 
say  seven,  it  don't  say  three;  but  it  says  six;  now,  you  might 
have  six  engines  there  and  he  might  handle  one  of  those  engines 
three  or  four  times  a  day,  but  that  would  only  count  as  one 
engine,  the  way  I  understand  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Although  he  handled  that  one  engine  just  as 
many  times  and  did  as  much  work  in  and  about  that  engine  as  if 
six  different  engines  came  in  during  the  same  period  of  time? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  I  don't  look  at  those  cases  that  way  at  all. 
I  have  explained  to  you  very  clearly  how  I  understand  the  rulp. 
I  don't  know  that  I  could  say  anything  further  on  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  now,  Mr.  Cadle,  the  matter  of  the  man- 
ner of  hostling  engines  varies  greatly  in  this  Western  territory, 
doesn't  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  just  what  do  you  mean  by  ''hostler" — 
you  say  that  ''hostlers"  shall  be  maintained? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  believe  in  my  direct  testimony  I  stated  what 
constituted  a  hostler. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  if  you  did,  Mr.  Cadle,  I  don't  remember 
it  and  I  would  like  to  know,  just  what,  under  this  rule,  is  the 
definition  of  "hostler." 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  stated  that  there  was  hostler  service  where 
they  would  relieve  the  engineers  at  the  station,  and  those  hos- 
tlers would  draw  the  train  out  of  the  station  and  they  would 
take  the  engine  to  the  roundhouse.  Now,  those  are  what  they 
call  road  hostlers,  outside  hostlers.    They  are  qualified  men,  men 


296 

that  are  capable  of  making  main  line  movements.  There  are 
hostlers  that  handle  the  enjii^ines  at  the  pit,  that  supply  the 
engines  with  coal,  water  and  sand,  and  have  their  fires  cleaned, 
put  them  in  the  roundhouse,  take  them  out,  place  them  on  a 
designated  track — the  engineers  are  relieved  from  performing 
that  character  of  hostler  service. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  at  small  points,  a  great  variety  of  duties 
are  performed  by  men  in  connection  with  the  care  and  han- 
dling of  engines,  after  the  completion  of  their  road  trips,  are 
there  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  At  some  points  they  handle  engines  in  and 
out  of  the  roundhouse,  in  connection  with  a  great  deal  of  other 
work,  seeing  that  the  sand,  water  and  coal  is  supplied? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  very  few  where  they  handle  engines 
in  and  out  of  the  roundhouse. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  who  does  that;  what  would  you  call 
the  man  who  handles  the  engines  in  and  out  of  the  roundhouse? 

Mr.  Cadle:     You  are  speaking  about  the  engineer? 

Mr.  Sheean:     No,  the  hostlers,  I  said. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Oh,  hostlers.  Yes,  you  have  got  hostlers  who 
handle  those  engines  in  and  around  the  roundhouse. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  man  who  handles  the  engine  on  and  off 
the  cinder  pit  is  a  hostler? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Generally,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  man  who  cleans  and  knocks  the  fire  is  a 
hostler? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  they  have  fire  knockers;  men  that  they 
employ  for  cleaning  those  fires  and  the  ash  pans,  and  there  are 
some  places  where  the  hostler  and  his  helper  will  clean  the  fire. 
It  is  their  duty  to  clean  the  fire. 

Mr.  Sheean:     At  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  this  rule,  if  granted,  could  the  hostler 
provided  for  in  this  rule  be  called  upon  to  do  the  work  of  clean- 
ing or  knocking  fires? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  don't  know,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:    You  say  that  hostlers  shall  be  maintained? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 


297 

Mr.  Sheean:  Could  a  hostler,  maintained  nnder  this  rule, 
be  called  upon  to  do  that  work? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  at  many  points  hostlers  do  that  work 
and  clean  ash  pans? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  hostler  very  seldom  cleans  the  ash  pans. 
There  are  places  where  they  may  have  a  few  engines,  a  very 
light  job,  where  the  hostler  will  clean  the  fires  and  his  helper 
will  clean  the  ash  pans. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  the  hostlers  now  ordinarily  spot  the  en- 
gines and  perform  the  work  of  supplying  the  engines  with  fuel, 
sand  and  water  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Who  does  that? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Wli}",  they  generally  have  a  laborer.  I  have 
seen  them  spotted  at  cars;  I  have  seen  engines  standing  spotted 
at  coal  docks,  where  they  shoveled  coal  onto  them  at  nights. 
I  have  seen  them  standing  alongside  of  cars  on  side  tracks  where 
they  shoveled  the  coal  on.  They  generally  have  a  man,  a  watch- 
man or  some  one,  to  do  that  work. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  this  rule  were  granted,  railroad  companies 
could  still  employ  men  as  watchmen  to  do  that  work? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  suppose  the  hostlers  would  have  any 
objection  to  his  shoveling  the  coal  on. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Or  spotting  of  the  engine? 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  watchman  doesn't  spot  any  engines. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Who  does  that  now? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Why,  the  engineer,  where  they  don't  have  any 
hostlers. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Where  they  have  hostlers? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  hostler  spots  the  engine,  generall3^  He  is 
supposed  to  spot  the  engine  and  place  it  on  the  turn-table. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  he  perform  the  work  of  supplying  fuel, 
water,  sand  and  supplies? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know,  sir,  whether  there  are  any  places 
where  they  do  it  or  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  the  men  who  do  this  work  of  various 
kinds  in  connection  with  the  care  and  the  handling  of  an  engine, 
both  for  the  road  trip  and  after  it  ends  the  road  trip  are  now 
supplied  from  various  departments,  are  they  not? 


298 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  very  much  about  that.  That 
comes  under  the  firemen's  agreement. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  know  of  cases  where,  when  there  are 
but  a  small  number  of  engines,  the  roundhouse  foreman  will 
make  a  few  movements  of  the  engine  in  connection  with  his 
general  duties! 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  know  places  where  they  christen  him 
** Roundhouse  foreman,"  but  he  gets  a  hostler's  pay  for  it, 
just  the  same. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  he  may  do  the  work  of  moving  one  or  two 
engines  during  the  day  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes;  they  generally  select  an  engineer  or  a 
fireman  for  that  position. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  your  proposal  contemi)late  that  one 
selected  as  a  hostler  can  be  called  upon  to  do  any  of  this  other 
work  which  is  now  done  by  this  roundhouse  foreman? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know^  anything  in  this  proposition  there 
that  would  prevent  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that,  if  a  rule  similar  to  this  were  granted, 
it  is  your  understanding  of  the  rule,  that  the  railroad  company 
in  paying  a  hostler's  rate,  in  case  there  was  but  two  hours' 
work,  actual  hostler's  work,  to  be  done  at  the  point,  might,  for 
that  rate  of  pay,  call  upon  that  man  to  do  this  other  work  that 
has  been  described  here? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  railroad  that 
employs  hostlers  where  they  have  but  two  hours'  work  to  per- 
form a  day.    They  don't  do  that.    I  don't  know  of  any  road. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  do  they  employ  now  where  they  have 
but  two  hours'  work? 

Mr.  Cadle :  They  have  an  engineer  and  fireman  handle  the 
engine,  and  a  great  many  recompense  them  for  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Handle  the  engine  from  where  to  where? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Do  all  of  the  duties  performed  by  a  hostler. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  that  is  what  I  would  like  to  get  at,  Mr. 
Cadle,  if  I  can,  as  to  what  the  duties  of  a  hostler  are? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  have  given  you — I  have  defined  them 
as  closely  as  I  possibly  can,  and  I  have  no  additions  to  make  to 
the  hostler. 

Mr.  Sheean :  At  points  where  six  engines  are  handled,  Mr. 
Cadle,  does  this  proposition  contemplate  that  the  employes  han- 
dling the  engines  be  paid  the  hostler's  wages? 


299 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  railroad  companies  now  have — a  great 
many  of  tliem  have  agreements  with  their  engineers  by  which 
they  shall  handle 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  am  talking  now  about  this  proposal. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  that  that  is  going  to  interfere 
with  the  rules  you  have  already  got  in  effect.    I  don't  know  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  if  this  proposal  is  more  favorable  than 
the  other,  it  will  interfere,  won't  it?  That  is  what  I  want  to  get 
at,  Mr.  Cadle,  whether  or  not  it  is  contemplated  that  an  employe 
handling  the  engine  be  paid  the  hostler's  wages? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No.  The  schedules  provide  that  he  shall  be 
paid  the  same  rate  of  pay  for  handling  the  engines  that  he  would 
for  handling  the  train  that  he  was  assigned  to.  They  do  not 
change  the  rate  of  pay  per  hour.  If  I  will  allow  you  an  hour  for 
liandling  the  engine,  and  you  are  on  a  run  that  pays  freight  rates, 
you  will  get  one  hour  at  freight  rates. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  I  have  in  mind,  Mr.  Cadle — and  I  would 
like  to  have  that  cleared  up  if  we  can — the  case  of  these  branch 
lines  where  we  say  there  are  one  or  two  engines.  The  engineer 
and  fireman  make  delivery  at  a  designated  track,  just  as  you 
would  in  a  large  terminal,  and  the  general  handy  man  knocks  the 
fire  and  does  all  the  other  work,  and  does  actually  move  it  from 
this  point  to  this  little  roundhouse,  does  all  of  the  other  labor 
that  I  have  told  about  here ;  under  this  proposal,  would  this  man 
at  these  points  on  branch  lines,  draw  the  hostler's  rate  I 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  sir,  he  would  draw  the  rate  of  pay — if  he 
were  required  to  perform  that  service  he  would  draw  the  rate  of 
pay  that  he  was  drawing  on  his  daily  run — on  his  run  that  he 
came  in  on. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Assuming,  though,  Mr.  Cadle,  that  the  en- 
gineer does  not  do  any  hostling  at  all  on  this  branch  line,  but 
simply  leaves  his  engine  (as  he  would  at  a  treminal)  at  a  desig- 
nated point,  and  that  the  handy  man  at  this  point  who  puts  on 
all  the  supplies,  and  the  coal  and  the  water  and  everything  else, 
does  move  this  single  engine  across  the  turntable,  if  you  please, 
or  in  and  out  of  the  caboose? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Under  the  engineers '  proposition  here,  the  com- 
pany have  a  right  to  expect  that  engineer  to  deliver  that  engine 
some  place. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Does  the  engineer,  under  your  proposal,  claim 


300 

the  right  also  to  do  this  hostler's  work?  What  I  am  trying  to  get 
at,  Mr.  Cadle,  is  whether  the  company  will  still  have  the  right  to 
do  the  thing  that  it  is  now  doing — having  a  handy  man  at  these 
points  to  do  all  of  this  work. 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  the  handy  man  does  all  of  the  work,  the 
engineer  will  have  no  claim  for  pay  at  all,  because  he  does  not 
perform  any  service.    The  handy  man  is  doing  it  all. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Will  that  handy  man,  because  of  his  hostling 
that  engine,  actually  moving  it  under  steam  once  or  twice  a  day, 
Hffder  your  proposal  be  entitled  to  this  hostler's  rate  of  pay? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  think  he  will,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  all  our  monthly  men — if  we  have  any 
— on  these  branch  lines,  who  perform  general  work,  at  an  agreed 
monthly  salary,  will  have  to  go  on  this  per  diem  rate  of  hostlers. 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  you  put  them  on  as  hostlers,  and  you  put 
that  rule  in  effect,  and  they  perform  the  duties  of  a  hostler, 
they  should  be  paid  according  to  that  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  if  at  any  time  during  their  duties  they 
move  an  engine  under  steam,  they  will  have  to  take  this  hostler's 
rate? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  no,  no.  I  have  seen  men  move  engines 
and  run  them  in  the  pit,  and  every  place  else.  We  do  not  want 
that  at  all.  Any  man  that  gets  on  an  engine  to  move  her  about 
there,  that  is  the  company's  business  and  theirs;  but  if  you 
employ  a  hostler  to  handle  these  engines  at  terminal  points, 
that  rule  will  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  supposing  we  still  hire  a  foreman  of 
that  shop,  and  in  connection  with  his  work  he  does  move  this 
engine  from  the  place  where  the  engineer  leaves  it  across  the 
pit,  and  does  that  regularly  every  day,  thirty  days  in  the  month, 
will  that  foreman  go  on  this  scale  of  hostler's  pay? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  you  will  have  a  grievance  with  the  fire- 
man now.  You  are  asking  the  questions  that  I  do  not  know 
very  much — this  hostler's  proposition;  but  you  ask  me  what 
that  rule  means,  and  I  will  trv  to  tell  you. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  let  us  get  over  then  onto  this  main 
line,  where  you  claim  jurisdiction.  How  much  of  a  main  line 
movement — what  length  of  main  line  movement  would  be  essen- 
tial to  put  him  on  this  main  line  movement  rate  of  pay? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  do  not  think  there  should  be  any  limit  at  all. 

Mr.  Sheean:     So  that  if  an  hostler  ordinarily  working  in 


301 

the  yard,  in  order  to  get  coal  or  water,  has  to  cross  a  main  track 
— the  Y — the  yard — has  to  cross  a  main  track,  the  hostler  who 
moved  at  any  time  on  that  main  track  would  take  that  main  line 
rate  of  pay? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  he  made  a  main  line  movement,  yes.  You 
can  hit  him  just  as  hard  on  that  switch  crossing  over  there  as 
if  he  were  out  ten  miles. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that  is  intended  in  this  proposition,  that 
in  cases  where  an  hostler  in  connection  with  this  regular  work 
moves  an  engine  at  any  time  on  any  part  of  the  main  line  he 
is  to  receive  the  rate  of  pay  here  fixed? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  intent  of  it  if  he  makes 
main  line  movements. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  a  shop  foreman  making  any  such  move- 
ment on  a  branch  line,  if  that  is  the  main  line  of  that  branch, 
would  also  receive  this,  would  he? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  the  shop  foreman  was  judged  competent 
by  the 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  taking  the  case  of  a  branch,  where 
there  are  two  runs  a  day,  but  it  is  the  main  line  of  that  branch 
railroad,  any  man  who  crossed  any  part  of  that  road  with  an 
engine  would  draw  this  engineer's  rate  of  pay? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Even  though  that  was  this  three-mile  branch 
of  the  Burlington  that  I  talked  of  the  other  day? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  even  though  there  was  only  one  engine 
on  the  entire  branch? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  what  the  rule  means  as  printed? 

Mr.  Cadle :     That  is  my  understanding  of  it,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that  hostler  under  this  Article  10  would 
also  be  entitled  to  time  and  a  half  if,  counting  his  time  continu- 
ously from  the  time  he  reported  until  he  was  relieved,  he  had 
a  spread  of  more  than  ten  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir.     That  is  what  the  rule  says. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  in  that  part  of  the  rule,  Mr.  Cadle, 
which  provides  that,  '  *  Should  hostlers  be  required  to  remain  on 
duty  after  designated  meal  hours,  one  hour  will  be  allowed  as 
overtime ' '  ? 


3U2 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Slieean:     That  takes  the  overtime  rate,  I  assume? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  I  would  not  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  is  that  one  hour  thus  allowed  added 
on  to  the  other  time  that  he  works,  in  order  to  determine  the 
comi)utation  of  overtime? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  would  not  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  allowed  independently  then  of  the 
computation  of  all  other  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:  You  have  special  rules  that  provide  for  a 
dinner  hour  and  how  they  shall  be  treated,  and  how  they  shall 
be  paid. 

Mr.  Sheean:     With  hostlers? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Well,  they  have  some  schedules. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  assume,  like  the  rest  of  it,  this  would  su- 
persede them  if  allowed,  would  it  not,  Mr.  Cadle?  I  am  trying 
to  find  out  what  would  be  done  under  this  rule. 

Mr.  Cadle:     It  is  better,  there  is  no  question. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  is  no  question  about  that.  Well,  as- 
suming that  this  rule  were  granted  here,  this  one  hour  were 
counted  as  overtime,  this  meal  hour  proposition  that  I  just 
referred  to,  is  that  also  added  on  to  the  other  working  time  to 
determine  what  the  total  time  on  duty  is? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Well,  it  should  be,  yes,  under  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  it  is  allowed  here  as  a  separate  item, 
and  then  also  is  considered  in  determining  his  total  length  of 
service  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Tt  might,  under  this  rule,  be  paid  for  twice, 
then,  Mr.  Cadle  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Not  if  vou  relieve  the  man,  it  won't. 

Mr.  Sheean:  No,  but  in  case  they  were  relieved,  as  pro- 
vided in  this  rule,  it  would  be  paid  for  twice. 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  no.  If  the  dinner  hour — if  that  is  paid  for, 
and  that  is  one  part  of  the  day's  work  which  shall  be  paid  at 
the  hour  rate,  it  is  my  judgment  then  that  the  overtime  rate 
should  be  made  separate  and  distinct  from  that  one  hour,  be- 
cause you  have  paid  the  man  once  for  that  one  hour  at  the  daily 
rate.    You  asked  me  if  the  time  and  a  half 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  do  you  compute  the  hostler's  time  con- 
tinuously ? 


303 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  what  tliey  do  say  about  it.  I 
told  you  I  did  not  know  very  much  about  a  hostler.  No,  sir,  I 
don't -see  that  there  is  anything  in  here  about  computing  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  it  your  understanding  this  would  not  be 
computed  continuously,  this  hostler  rule. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Nothing  in  the  rule  says  it  shall  be  computed 
continuously. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  then,  do  you  understand  that  if  they 
were  relieved  for  one  hour,  from,  say,  twelve  to  one  each  day, 
that  there  would  be  a  total  spread  of  eleven  hours,  and  ten 
hours  to  be  paid  for,  under  this  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  a  thing  in  the  world  how  they 
are  paying  hostlers. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  I  am  trying  to  find  out  about  the  paying 
under  this  rule. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  you  had  better  take  that  up  with  Mr. 
Carter's  men,  the  hostler  proposition,  because  it  is  their  rule, 
and  they  are  supplying  men  for  it,  and  it  is  unfair  for  you  to 
ask  me  to  define 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  now,  Mr.  Cadle,  I  don't  want  to  ask 
you  anything  that  is  unfair,  but  I  assume  that  when  this  pro- 
posal provided  that  the  main  line  or  road  hostlers  are  to  be. 
paid  the  same  as  engineers  on  switching  service,  and  that  such 
positions  shall  be  filled  from  the  ranks  of  the  engineers,  that 
that  part  of  this  rule  was  strictly  the  engineers'  rule.  Am  I 
wrong  in  that  assumption? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Provided  you  can  get — provided  they  pay  the 
engineers'  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  do  you  mean  that  it  ought  not — that 
you  do  not  feel  qualified  to  answer  questions  under  this  rule, 
Mr.  Cadle?    I  do  not  want  to  press  it,  if  you  don't. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  feel  that  I  am  .competent  to  decide 
what  that  rule  means,  because  a  hostler  comes  under  the  juris- 
diction, as  a  general  thing,  of  the  firemen's  organization,  and  I 
am  not  so  familiar  with  them  as  I  am  with  the  engineers. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  are  you  able  to  tell,  Mr.  Cadle — I  won't 
press  it  if  you  say  you  have  not  considered  it — are  you  able  to 
tell  how  this  average  is  to  be  determined,  provided  for  in  the 
first  part  of  the  rule,  ''at  points  where  an  average  of  six  or 
more  locomotives  are  handled  within  six  hours,  day  or  night, 


304 

hostlers  shall  be  maintained,"  as  to  what  period  of  time  shall 
be  taken  in  determining:  this  average? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  it  appears  as  though  the  article  provides 
periods  of  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  don't  mean  that  if  in  a  single  twelve 
hour  period  there  happened  to  be  six  engines  there,  that  that 
would  establish  that  point  for  all  time,  or  do  you? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  is  what  it  says. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  if  at  any  point,  within  any  twelve 
hour  period,  there  were  six  engines  handled,  that  would  be 
established  as  a  point  where  the  railroads  would  have  to  supply 
and  maintain  a  hostler? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  this  Article  15,  as  to  the  official 
record  of  Aveights  on  drivers;  I  assume  that  there  is  not  any- 
thing ironclad  about  the  bulletin  feature  of  it,  if  you  could 
agree  upon  some  more  satisfactory  method?  All  that  this  re- 
quest is  desig-ned  to  cover  is  that  you  shall  have  full  and  ade- 
(piate  information  as  to  the  actual  service  weights  on  drivers, 
and  you  suggest  the  bulletining  of  it  as  the  most  desirable 
method  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  presume  that  is  all,  that  the  engineers  and 
firemen  would  like  to  have  correct  official  weights  of  those  en- 
gines. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Some  roads,  as  I  understand  it,  have  that 
stenciled  or  designated  in  some  way;  but  what  you  want  is 
some  uniform  practice  on  the  several  roads  that  will  be  a  mu- 
tually satisfactory  way  of  furnishing  accurate  information  in 
that  respect? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Wliat  the  engineers  and  firemen  are  asking  for, 
or  have  asked  for,  is  to  take  the  correct  weight  of  those  engines, 
and  not  be  deceived  in  order  not  to  pay  according  to  the  agree- 
ment. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Of  course,  that  part  of  the  rule  is  in  connec- 
tion with  the  proposal  of  basing  rates  on  weights  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  This  Article  16,  throwing  switches  and  flag- 
ging, in  the  case  of  helper  engines,  is  this  rule  designed  or  in- 
tended to  make  necessary  the  carrying  of  some  member  of  a 
road  crew  in  order  to  throw  the  switches  and  let  the  helper 
engine  in  at  the  end  of  its  run! 


305 

Mr.  Cadle:  Where  the  road  crews  in  helping  service  re- 
quire a  flagman,  the  engineer  and  fireman  want  to  be  relieved  of 
that.  They  also  want  to  be  relieved  of  throwing  switches  at  any 
point. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  just  wanted  the  application.  Take  a  helper 
engine  running  up  a  grade  of  say  ten  miles,  and  it  comes  back, 
with  the  engineer  and  fireman  going  to  the  roundhouse.  It  comes 
back  light  down  the  grade. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  it  contemplated  that  when  it  gets  back 
from  this  pushing  or  helping  service,  there  must  be  provided  a 
flagman  or  some  other  employe  to  throw  the  switch  to  let  that 
helper  engine  in  onto  the  roundhouse  track! 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  that  is  a  matter  for  the  company  to  de- 
cide what  it  is.  It  is  not  for  the  engineers  to  decide.  There  are 
certain  responsibilities.  I  could  give  my  experience  that  I 
had 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Cadle,  I  just  want  the  interpretation  and 
intent  of  the  rule  merely.  The  rule  as  worded  is : 

"Engineers  and  firemen  will  not  be  required  to  throw 
switches,  flag  through  blocks,  or  fill  water  cars." 

Now,  as  to  the  matter  of  the  switch,  is  it  the  purpose  and 
intent  of  this  rule  that  with  a  helper  engine  completing  its  push- 
ing or  pulling  up  the  grade  and  returning  to  the  foot  of  the 
grade,  the  fireman  or  engineer  shall  neither  one  of  them  open  the 
switch,  or  be  required  to  open  the  switch  to  let  them  into  the 
yard? 

Mr.  Cadle :  That  rule  provides  that  they  shall  be  relieved 
of  that  service. 

Mr.  Sheean :     It  does  so  require  I 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  where  pusher  or  helper  engines  are 
maintained,  if  this  rule  was  granted,  there  would  have  either  to 
be  a  switchman  kept  at  this  point  constantly,  or  else  a  road  man 
employed  to  ride  up  on  the  engine  which  is  pushing,  and  ride 
back  with  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  other  part  of  the  rule,  that  they  shall 
not  be  required  to  fill  water  cars,  was  that  intended  to  apply  to 


306 

tank  cars  which  are  attached  to  the  locomotive,  to  use  as  an 
emergency  tender? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Mr.  Slieean:     Would  it  cover  that  sort  of  a  situation! 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  on  that  matter  of  final  terminal 
delay,  I  want  to  ask  just  a  question  or  two  that  I  overlooked 
yesterday. 

The  next  to  the  last  paragraph  of  Article  6  reads : 

"Final  terminal  delay  in  freight  service  shall  begin  when 
train  arrives  at  switch  leading  from  main  line  into  yard,  and 
shall  end  when  engineer  and  firemen  are  relieved  from  duty ;  pro- 
^dded,  that  if  from  any  cause  trains  are  held  out  of  yard,  final 
terminal  delay  shall  begin." 

Now,  in  a  case  where  the  yard  is  congested,  and  the  train 
arrives  at  this  outer  switch  as  provided  for  here,  how  far  up, 
under  that  rule,  is  it  contemplated  that  the  damming  up  of  traffic 
shall  apply  to  other  crews? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Well,  I  do  not  know  as  there  is  any  limit. 

Mr.  Sheean :     No  limit  at  all? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  take  the  Chicago  &  North  Western, 
for  instance,  if  the  first  crew  that  got  into  the  outer  switch  could 
not  get  in  there,  and  then  the  next  following  crew  was  held  up 
five  miles  back,  and  another  one  out  at  West  Chicago,  22  miles 
back,  all  of  those  crews  would  draw  terminal  delay  under  this 
rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:  As  I  understand  your  question,  there  are 
trains  between  all  of  those  places  that  cause  this  block? 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  that  makes  any  difference  in  your  answer, 
you  may  assume  it  either  way. 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  would  make  a  great  deal  of  difference  in 
my  answer, 

Mr.  Sheean:     Just  tell  us  the  differences. 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  the  train  was  up  against  the  block,  detained 
here  in  the  yard,  and  there  was  a  train  lined  up  here  on  the  main 
track  that  could  not  get  in  on  account  of  that  line  being  block- 
aded, if  that  was  the  cause  of  the  delay,  the  final  terminal  delay 
would  be  paid  to  all  of  those  crews  under  that  rule. 


307 

Mr.  Slieean :  Supposing  that  instead  of  letting  it  stand  on 
the  main  track,  they  put  one  train  on  a  siding,  five  miles  out,  and 
they  are  held  at  that  siding  because  the  terminal  is  blocked. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Does  that  man  draw  the  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  it  is  a  question  of  putting  them  on  a 
side  track  that  would  determine  whether  or  not  the  terminal 
delay  accrued? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  any  delay  would  accrue  to  a  train  laid  on 
the  side  track,  that  man's  time  would  be  computed  from  road 
service,  and  not  terminal  delay. 

Mr.  Sheean :  For  road  service  he  would  get  it  only  in  case 
it  went  into  overtime? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Then  out  here  five  miles  they  have  one  train 
on  the  main  track,  and  they  put  another  train,  or  the  second  sec- 
tion of  that  train,  in  on  the  side  track.  They  are  only  out  eight 
hours  on  duty,  and  they  are  both  held  out  two  hours.  The  one 
which  was  on  the  main  track  would  draw  two  hours  more  than 
the  man  who  was  put  on  the  siding? 

Mr.  Cadle :  He  would,  if  it  was  caused  by  that — if  he  w^as 
held. 

Mr.  Sheean :  They  are  both  held.  I  am  assuming  that  they 
both  come  up 

Mr.  Cadle :  You  have  got  one  man  on  a  side  track.  He  is 
in  clear.  He  has  got  no  responsibilities.  He  can  take  his  shoes 
off.  The  other  man  is  on  the  main  track,  and  his  delay  is  caused 
on  account  of  the  congestion  in  the  terminal.  He  will  come  in 
under  terminal  delay,  and  if  the  other  man  earns  any  overtime, 
it  will  be  after  his  time  limit  is  up. 

Mr.  Sheean:  AMiether  or  not  this  terminal  delay  would 
back  up  a  particular  distance  on  a  particular  road  would  depend 
upon  whether  or  not  they  were  fortunate  enough  to  have  sidings 
on  which  to  put  the  men  between  here  and  West  Chicago.  If  they 
went  in  on  the  siding  they  could  avoid  terminal  delay,  but  if  held 
on  the  main  track,  the  railroad  company  would  have  to  pay  the 
men  the  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  by  this  proviso,  ''that  if  from  any  other 


308 

cause  trains  are  held  out  of  yard,  linal  terminal  delay  shall 
begin,"  it  was  contemi)lated  that  this  might  back  up  indefinitely, 
was  it  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  it  might,  but  there  is  a  great  possibility 
that  it  would  not. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Under  this  same  rule,  if  a  crew  is  held  at  the 
outer  switch,  so  that  a  man  is  getting  this  terminal  delay  com- 
puted down  to  the  time  that  he  is  relieved,  does  he  draw  that 
terminal  delay  in  addition  to  the  miles  from  the  point  that  he  is 
held,  down  to  the  point  where  he  is  relieved? 

Mr.  Cadle :     A  number  of  the  schedules  deduct 

Mr.  Sheean :     No,  I  mean  under  this  rule. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  know  what  this  rule  contemplates. 
You  see  as  much  of  it  as  I  do. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  have  not  been  interpreting  them  as  many 
5"ears  as  you  have, 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  know.  I  tell  you  honestly,  I  do  not 
know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  just  put  the  case  to  you,  and  I  would  like 
to  have  your  opinion  on  it  candidly.  This  crew  is  held  out  at  the 
terminal  switch,  and  that  is  five  miles  from  the  place  where  his 
train  would  be  delivered  on  the  track  in  the  yard.  He  is  held 
out  there  for  a  half  hour.  Then  it  takes  him  another  half  hour  to 
get  from  there  down  to  the  point  where  he  is  relieved,  running 
five  miles  in  the  meantime.  He  draws  one  hour's  terminal  delay, 
com})uted  from  the  time  that  he  got  to  the  outer  switch  until  he 
got  to  his  destination.    Does  he  also  draw  pay  for  the  five  miles 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  provision  is  that  this  terminal  delay  shall 
which  he  runs  in  the  last  half  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  would  not  think  so. 
be  paid  in  addition  to  the  time  or  mileage  of  the  trip,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  five  miles  is  a  part  of  the  mileage 
of  the  trip,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir,  and  you  agree  to  pay  for  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  under  this  rule  this  one  hour  terminal 
delay  is  in  addition  to  the  time  or  mileage  of  the  trip? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  cases  you  speak  of,  where  I  think 
you  spoke  of  engineers  sometimes  taking  the  equipment  from 


309 

the  passenger  station  out  some  three  or  four  miles  or  more  to 
a  yard,  the  schedule  provisions,  as  a  rule,  make — I  was  going 
to  say  an  arbitrary  allowance — make  provision  for  paying  a 
certain  number  of  miles  for  that  service,  don't  they? 

Mr.  Cadle :  They  have  different  ways  of  paying  those  men 
for  backing  those  trains  out  of  the  station. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  a  rule,  by  allowing  them  so  many  miles, 
or  something  of  that  sort? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Some  of  them  allow  them  an  arbitrary  hour, 
some  of  them  allow  an  arbitrary  thirty  minutes — not  arbitrary 
— yes,  I  will  use  the  word  "arbitrary" — some  of  the  roads  pay 
at  a  mileage  rate  and  some  pay  at  an  hourly  rate,  some  pay 
thirtv  minutes,  and  some  of  them  an  hour ;  but  thev  have  a  fixed 
rate  of  pay, 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  in  that  sort  of  case,  under 
this  saving  clause  that  ''Any  rates  of  pay,  including  excess 
mileage  or  arbitrary  differentials  that  are  higher,  or  any  rules 
or  conditions  of  employment  that  are  better" — under  that  clause, 
where  certain  mileage  in  schedules  is  now  provided  to  cover 
the  time  between  the  depot  and  the  roundhouse,  would  the  ap- 
plication of  this  rule  as  to  terminal  delay,  which  requires  the 
pajinent  of  all  time  from  the  passenger  depot,  if  you  please, 
to  the  roundhouse,  separate  and  distinct  from  the  mileage  or 
time  of  the  trip, — would  you  retain  this  arbitrary  mileage  al- 
lowed under  the  schedules,  and,  in  addition  thereto,  receive  pay 
for  this  terminal  delay? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  I  think  you  would  deduct  the  mileage. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Deduct  the  mileage? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  under  which  clause  of  your  proposition, 
Mr.  Cadle,  is  there  provision  for  deducting  the  mileage  between 
passenger  depot  and  roundhouse,  or  between  outer  switch  and 
roundhouse,  and  not  computed  in  the  mileage  of  the  trip? 

Mr.  Cadle :  The  only  answer  I  could  give  you  to  that  ques- 
tion is  the  principle  under  which  they  are  working  now.  There 
are  a  great  many  schedules  where  you  earn  an  hour  or  the 
thirty  minutes  terminal  delay,  they  will  deduct,  if  there  is  mile- 
age, they  deduct  the  mileages  and  the  rules  provide  that  it 
shall  be  done. 


310 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  was  wondering  whether  these  rules  made 
any  such  provision? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  could  not  tell  you. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Have  you  seen  any  provision  for  the  deduc- 
tion, to  avoid  double  payment,  in  any  of  these  proposals? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  each  of  the  cases  where  that  deduction 
is  made,  it  is  because  in  that  particular  rule  there  is  a  provi- 
sion authorizing  its  deduction,  in  order  to  avoid  pa}dng  twice 
for  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  absence  of  such  a  specific  provision 
in  the  schedule,  payments  of  that  sort  cannot  be  avoided? 

Ml".  Cadle:  I  think  you  will  find  some  of  the  companies, 
where  they  have  not  a  specific  rule  of  that  kind,  where  they 
do  deduct  tlie  mileage, 

Mr.  Sheean:     They  do  have  a  specific  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Some  of  them  do,  and  some  of  them  do  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Take  that  same  saAdng  clause  you  speak  of 
here,  in  mountain  territory,  to  which  we  adverted  the  other 
day,  where  one  hundred  miles  is  allowed  for  ninety-two  or  one 
hundred  and  eight  for  ninety-two,  or  one  hundred  and  twenty- 
nine  for  one  hundred  and  eleven,  it  is  the  purpose  and  intent 
of  this  proposal,  that  all  of  that  arbitrary  mileage  or  excess 
mileage  should  be  retained  under  the  saving  clause? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  the  intention,  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes.  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  then  it  is  the  intention  to  apply  to  that 
the  increased  rate  of  10  per  cent,  which  is  provided  for  in  an- 
other rule? 

Mr.  Cjidle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  you  retain  both  the  differentials  that 
are  allowed  in  the  present  schedules,  in  the  way  of  excess  mile- 
age, and  then  also  provide  a  new  percentage  differential,  apply- 
ing it  to  the  other  arbitrarv? 

Mr.  Cadle :  It  applies  to  the  other  arbitrary  just  the  same 
as  it  does  to  the  straight  mileage. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  where,  in  any  mountain  territory, 
the   difference   between   vallev  and  mountain   rates   has   been 


311 

brought  about  by  allowing  greater  miles  in  the  mountain  ter- 
ritory than  in  the  valley  territory,  you.  would  still  keep  these 
constructive  miles,  under  the  saving  clause? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  then  you  would  apply  the  diiferential  in 
the  rates  to  this  constructive  mileage  as  well  f 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Just  a  moment,  Mr.  Cadle,  on  that  fifth  para- 
graph of  Article  2,  right  under  the  rates,  in  which  provision 
is  made  that  the  engineers  and  firemen  will  be  paid  the  through 
freight  rate,  according  to  the  class  of  engine,  in  pusher,  helper, 
and  mine  run  service;  is  it  contemplated  that  the  rates  thus 
provided  for,  through  freight  rates,  shall  also  include  the 
through  freight  rules! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  all  of  the  through  freight  rules  which 
are  provided,  either  in  this  submission  or  any  of  the  schedules, 
if  thev  should  be  anv  more  favorable,  will  be  extended  to  and 
applied  to  the  pusher,  helper,  mine  run,  w^ork,  wreck,  belt  line, 
transfer  and  all  other  unclassified  services! 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  intent  of  that  rule  is  to  pay  those  classes 
of  service  at  through  freight  rates  and  all  the  rules. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  all  the  rules  of  through  freight  service? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  does  that  include  that  automatic  release 
pay,  ip.  the  case  of  the  pusher  and  helper  1 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  you  have  got  an  engineer  assigned  to  a 
pusher  job,  he  may  make  four  or  five  trips  a  day.  I  don't  think 
the  rule  would  relieve  that  man  automatically  at  the  end  of  each 
trip,  because  these  men,  as  a  general  rule,  are  assigned  to  per- 
form a  certain  amount  of  work,  to  help  a  certain  number  of 
trains,  or  for  a  certain  number  of  hours.  Their  day's  work  is 
platted  out  for  them,  and  I  don't  think  the  rule  would  apply 
to  relieve  a  man  automatically  every  time  he  came  in,  after 
helping  a  train  up  a  hill  and  coming  back. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Suppose  at  the  foot  of  the  hill  is  his  terminal, 
under  the  automatic  release  the  provision  is  ''Engineers  and 
firemen  arriving  at  terminal  or  end  of  run  are  automatically 
released;  when  used  again,  they  begin  a  new  day." 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  have  answ^ered  the  question. 


312 

Mr.  Stone:  What  are  you  referring  to,  mine  runs,  or  pusher 
and  helper? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Pusher  and  helper. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  we  wrote  into  the  record 
of  the  second  day's  proceedings  the  fact  that  it  did  not  apply 
to  pusher  and  helper  service — the  Automatic  Release? 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  Article  7  did  not  apply? 

Mr.  Stone:  That  automatic  release  feature  did  not  apply. 
You  will  find  it  on  page  104. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  suburban  and  pusher  and  helper 
service. 

Mr.  Stone:     Pusher  and  helper,  not  mine  run? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  as  to  mine  run,  perhaps,  Mr.  Stone,  we 
may  stipulate  as  to  that,  that  it  is  the  intent  to  apply  the  Auto- 
matic Release  to  mine  runs. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  Automatic  Release  applies  to  all  the 
classes  specified  in  Article  7,  applies  to  everything  except 
pusher  and  helper  service,  and  suburban  service;  those  three 
exceptions  are  made,  and  it  is  written  in  the  record. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  you  are  familiar  with  mine  run 
service;  I  believe  you  said  you  know,  in  a  general  way,  at  least, 
about  mine  runs. 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  I  don't  know  that  the  Board  is,  and  I 
wish  you  would  tell  just  what  is  meant  by  mine  runs,  in  this 
proposition. 

Mr.  Cadle:  You  have  assigned  crews  that  serve  the  mines 
with  empties,  take  the  loads  out,  and  they  may  draw  them  ten 
or  twelve  or  fifteen  or  thirty  miles  into  some  yard  where  they 
are  classified. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now  then,  supposing  there  are  mines  ten 
miles  out  from  Springfield,  in  one  direction,  five  miles  out  in 
another,  and  six  miles  intermediate — that  you  make  a  separate 
trip  to  three  or  four  mines  during  the  day,  bringing  in  these 
loads  to  this  terminal,  and  assembling  them  into  a  through 
freight;  under  the  application  of  the  Automatic  Release  rule, 
one  hundred  miles  or  less  would  have  to  be  paid  for  each  one 
of  those  trips? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  any  place  where  you  get  these 
mine  runs  so  quick  as  you  state  there. 


313 

Mr.  Slieean:  You  spoke  of  one  ten  miles  out,  yourself,  just 
a  minute  ago.  Just  what  is  the  usual  distance  from  the  ter- 
minal ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  My  understanding  of  a  mine  run  is,  that  a 
fellow  starts  out  with  a  cut  of  empties,  he  may  take  one  hun- 
dred or  one  hundred  and  ten  empty  cars,  and  he  will  peddle 
those  cars  out,  he  will  distribute  them  at  the  different  mines, 
serving  the  mines,  and  if  he  can  get  back  home  within  the  pre- 
scribed ten  hours,  he  has  done  a  fairly  good  day's  work  for  the 
company.  You  take  the  majority  of  these  runs,  he  should  be 
automatically  released  at  the  end  of  this  run. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  he  had  to  run  through  that  terminal  at  any 
time — suppose  there  are  mines  on  different  sides  of  the  terminal 
and  he  passes  through  the  terminal,  there  would  be  an  automatic 
release  each  time! 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  not  where  you  have  special  rules  in  your 
schedules. 

Mr.  Slieean:  We  haven't,  in  any  schedule,  any  automatic 
release  on  mine  runs. 

Mr.  Cadle :  We  had  a  letter  from  the  Managers '  Commit- 
tee stating  all  these  schedules  were  in  effect  again,  and  we  be- 
lieve we  have  them  yet. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Tell  me  if  you  think  there  is  any  schedule  in 
effect  now,  which  provides  for  an  automatic  release  in  mine 
runs  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  understand  these  mine  runs — say  that  a  rail- 
road company  assigns  a  crew — and  they  very  seldom  ever  assign 
a  crew  unless  they  have  a  day's  work  for  it,  a  full  day's  work — 
they  may  pass  through  the  terminal  point  in  serving  those  mines, 
but  would  not  be  automatically  released  in  a  case  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  that  is,  Mr.  Cadle,  because  of  specific 
schedule  provisions,  is  it  not,  authorizing  the  assignment  to  a 
day's  work  of  a  series  of  short  runs,  in  and  out  of  the  terminals? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Where  crews  are  assigned  to  mine  runs,  they 
are  permitted  to  run  through  their  terminals,  back  and  forth, 
without  affecting  the  rights  of  other  men  in  the  pool  ser\dce. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  where,  under  this  rule,  Mr.  Cadle,  do 
you  find  any  right  to  assign  to  a  series  of  short  runs,  in  and  out 
of  terminals,  and  thereby  avoid  an  automatic  release  every  time 
you  come  into  the  terminal? 


314 

Mr.  Cadlo:  I  don't  know,  sir.  I  cannot  answer  your  ques- 
tion. 

^[r.  Slieean:  Is  there  in  this  submission  anything  that 
would  autliorize  an  assignment  wliich  would  permit  a  running 
in  and  out  of  terminals? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  do  not  see  it.  I  am  going  to  answer  your 
questions  just  as  I  have  answered  similar  questions  all  the  way 
through ;  these  railroad  officers  and  these  railroads  have  worked 
for  twenty-five  years  establishing  rules,  and  I  do  not  under- 
stand that  this  arbitration  is  going  to  set  all  of  those  rules  aside. 
You  have  got  a  basic  principle  to  work  from. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  one  of  the  basic  principles  to  which  you 
refer  is  that  the  officers  should  be  permitted  to  make  an  assign- 
ment of  a  series  of  short  runs  in  and  out  of  terminals,  provided 
they  do  not  exceed  one  hundred  miles  or  ten  hours! 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  schedule  provisions  at  the  present,  the 
rules  they  are  working  under,  where  men  are  assigned  to  mine 
runs,  they  come  into  the  terminals  and  get  their  dinner  and  go 
out  and  go  to  work  again. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  order  to  clear  up  any  possibility  of  any 
such  claim  being  made  as  the  one  adverted  to  here  yesterday, 
there  would  be  no  Objection,  from  your  viewpoint,  to  write,  in 
connection  with  any  such  rule  as  this,  a  statement  that  men  may 
be  assigned  to  a  series  of  short  runs  in  and  out  of  terminals, 
without  being  automatically  released? 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  such  rules  in  effect  at  the  present 
time. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  know  there  are ;  and  you  think  they  are  all 
right;  that  they  ought  to  be  continued? 

Mr,  Cadle :  Well,  we  have  got  a  good  many  men  that  are 
assigned  to  those  runs  regularly,  and  they  go  in  and  out  of 
these  terminals.  I  don't  know — I  am  not  going  to  say  what  I 
think  about  your  three  switch  engine  proposition,  but  the  of- 
ficer of  the  railroad  company  that  operated  that  movement  up 
there  could  be  criticised  as  much  as  the  engineers  that  put  in 
the  time. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Under  this  rule,  Mr.  Cadle,  if  an  engineer  is 
called  to  make  a  road  trip,  say  a  sixty  mile  road  trip,  way 
freight — let  us  say  he  is  called  at  seven  o'clock  in  the  morning, 
and  before  starting  out  he  assists  in  pushing  a  train  out  of  the 


315 

yard  for  three  miles,  and  it  takes  liim  an  hour  to  do  that — then 
he  returns  and  takes  his  train  out,  runs  this  sixty  miles,  com- 
pletes that  ran  in  six  hours,  and  is  on  duty  altogether  eight 
hours ;  what  would  he  receive  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Under  this  proposition! 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Two  days. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Two  days? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Although  the  total  miles  run  were  sixty-five, 
we  will  say,  if  he  went  out  a  distance  of  five  miles ;  and  the  total 
time  of  his  work  was  eight  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  this  rule  he  would  be  entitled  to  two 
full  days'  pay? 

Mr.  Cadle :  KightfuUy  so,  for  a  man  that  would  make  that 
movement. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Total  time  on  duty  eight  hours,  and  total 
miles  run,  sixty  or  sixty-three? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  referring  to  the  retention  of  the  con- 
structive miles,  in  territory  where  they  have  it,  and  then  the 
application  of  the  10  per  cent  increase  to  the  rates  and  mileage 
thus  obtained,  is  it  the  intention  in  that  Article  2,  Mr.  Cadle,  as 
to  divisions  where  the  grade  is  1.8  per  cent — is  it  the  intention  to 
apply  this  to  all  railroads,  whether  they  are  in  mountain  terri- 
tory or  valleys,  in  case  they  have  a  grade  of  1 .8  per  cent  f 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  don't  think  so.    • 

Mr.  Sheean :  It  is  only  intended  to  apply  in  mountain  terri- 
tory? 

Mr.  Cadle:     That  is  my  understanding. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  then,  how  do  you  define  mountain  terri- 
tory? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  if  we  had  all  these  engineers  around  here 
that  are  in  mountain  territory,  they  could  define  it  for  you. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  this  proposition  was  modified  so  it  read 
"on  all  divisions  in  mountain  territory,"  how  could  one,  who 
wanted  to  ascertain  whether  his  railroad  came  under  this  rule 
or  not,  determine  whether  he  was  in  mountain  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  the  grade  was  1 .8  per  cent  under  this  rule,  it 
would  be  considered  mountain  territorv. 


316 

Mr.  Shoean:  Then,  any  railroad  that  has  a  grade  of  1.8 
per  cent  is  considered  in  mountain  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle :     In  mountain  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  it  is  mountain  service — if  it  is  mountain  ter- 
ritory. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  the  fact  that  there  is  a  grade  of  1.8  per 
cent  on  a  division,  make  that  a  mountain  division? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  sir.  You  could  put  u])  coal  on  a  chute  and 
claim  it  for  the  entire  trip 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  mean  on  the  main  line. 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  am  just  as  technical  as  you  are 


Mr.  Sheean :  I  don 't  want  to  be  technical  at  all ;  all  I  want 
to  get  at  is  where  the  main  line  has  a  grade  of  1.8  per  cent,  does 
that  automatically  put  it  in  mountain  territory? 

Mr.  Cadle :  No,  sir.  This  rule  is  gotten  up,  as  I  understand 
it,  to  fix  a  basis  of  1.8  per  cent  in  mountain  service — in  mountain 
service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  How  is  that  territory,  that  mountain  terri- 
tory, to  be  designated — where  it  is  recognized  in  the  present 
schedule,  do  you  mean? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  there  are  a  number  of  roads  that  have 
mountain  territory  of  a  great  many  miles  on  certain  divisions, 
and  are  railroads  that  that  rule  might  apply  on,  that  it  does  not 
apply  on  at  the  present  time. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Just  so  there  cannot  be  any  misunderstand- 
ing about  it,  Mr.  Cadle,  could  you  specify  that  by  the  states,  or 
by  any  descriptive  designation  as  to  railroads,  as  to  which  this 
would  apply ;  or  parts  of  railroads  on  which  it  would  apply  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir,  I  could  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  ought  to  be  done  to  avoid  misunder- 
standings about  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  simply  mean  that  you  could  not,  at  this 
time,  outline  just  what  they  are? 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  know  where  there  are  railroads  with  consid- 
erable grades  not  in  mountain  territory Take  the  Frisco  Sys- 
tem out  of  Ft.  Smith,  up  through  these  Balsam  Mountains ;  and 
you  go  to  work  and  take  the  Kansas  City  Southern,  there  are  a 
great  many  roads  where  there  are  Mallet  engines  used  to  get 


317 

the  trains  over  those  grades.  I  presume  those  grades  are  equal 
to  1.8  per  cent.  In  those  places  the  probabilities  are  that  under 
that  rule  that  would  be  considered  mountain  service. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But,  if  some  road  here  in  Illinois  or  crossing 
from  Illinois  to  Iowa,  had  a  grade  of  1.8  per  cent,  crossing  any 
of  the  Mississippi  bluffs,  that  would  not  fall  under  this  rulef 

Mr.  Cadle:  Oh,  I  would  not  consider  so.  You  may  find 
places  where  you  have  got  a  grade,  where  a  train  would  roll 
over  that,  a  short  distance.  We  call  those,  in  railroad  parlance, 
sags. 

Mr.  Sheean :     But  this  rule,  Mr.  Cadle,  as  you  understand 
it,  was  intended  only  to  cover  mountain  territory  f 
Mr.  Cadle :     Mountain  service. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  you  did  not  provide  any  definition  of 
what  is  mountain  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  could  not  do  it. 
Mr.  Sheean :     You  could  not  do  it  ? 
Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  under  this  preparatory  time  fea- 
ture, I  was,  to  just  make  sure  there  is  no  misunderstanding 
between  you  and  me  on  that — in  the  case  of  a  passenger  train 
where  the  hostler  brings  the  engine  from  the  roundhouse  down 
to  the  depot  and  the  rules  of  that  company  provide  that  the 
engineer  who  is  to  take  the  train  out  shall  be  on  his  engine  or  at 
the  depot — at  the  depot  and  on  his  engine  five  minutes  before 
the  train  leaves  the  depot ;  does  he  draw  a  half  hour  preparatory 
time  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  think  the  rule  is  on  a  minute  basis. 
Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Wouldn't  he  get  one  mile  under  the  rule? 
Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  I  am  asking  you,  Mr.  Cadle,  on  the 
assumption  that  you  know  better  than  I  do.  As  I  read  the  rule 
it  says  he  will  be  allowed  'thirty  minutes  preparatory  time  iri 
addition  to  all  other  time  or  mileage  made  on  the  trip,  or  day, 
provided  that  on  lines  of  railroad  where  rules  or  schedules 
require  them  to  be  on  duty  more  than  thirty  minutes  before  time 
ordered  to  leave  roundhouse  or  other  point,  they  will  be  allowed 
one  hour's  time,  and  when  required  to  be  on  duty  more  than  one 
hour,  actual  time  will  be  allowed." 

Mr.  Cadle :     He  would  not  be  paid. 


318 

Mr.  Sheean:  "Pn'i)aratory  time  will  be  the  time  engineers 
and  firemen  are  required  to  be  on  their  locomotives,  prior  to  time 
ordered  to  leave  roundliouse  or  other  jioint." 

Mr.  C'adle:  lie  would  not  be  ]iaid  iindci-  that  nile  for  five 
minutes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Would  he  be  paid  for  ten  minutes? 

Mr.  Cadle:     The  rule  provides  thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  case  he  was  on  ten  minutes  before  leaving 
time,  would  he  be  paid  the  thirty  minutes  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No. 

The  Chairman:     We  will  take  a  recess  until  2  o'clock. 

(Whereupon,  at  12  o'clock  M.,  a  recess  was  taken  until  2 
o'clock  P.M.) 

After  Recess. 

M.  W.  CADLE  was  recalled  for  further  examination,  and, 
having  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Cadle,  at  the  time  of  adjournment  we 
were  speaking  of  prejiaratory  time  as  applied  to  an  engineer 
whose  engine  was  brought  to  the  depot  by  a  hostler,  where  the 
outbound  engineer  put  in  ten  minutes  on  his  engine  oiling  up, 
and  seeing  that  it  was  in  readiness  for  the  road  trip.  Do  I 
understand  that  such  an  engineer  would  or  would  not  be  en- 
titled to  preparatory  time! 

Mr.  Cadle:  In  my  judgment  it  would  make  no  difference 
whether  he  prepared  the  engine  at  the  depot  or  the  roundhouse 
or  a  designated  track.  If  he  prepared  the  engine,  he  would 
come  under  the  pro\dsions  of  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that  irrespective  of  whether  it  was  five 
minutes  or  ten  minutes,  or  any  other  length  of  time  i)reparatory 
to  going  out  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  any  preparation,  such  as  oiling,  or  ex- 
amining the  injector,  no  matter  whether  it  was  three,  five  or 
ten  minutes,  would  entitle  him  to  the  thirty  minutes  tim.e,  irre- 
spective of  the  miles  he  might  make? 

Mr.  Cadle:     If  he  prepared  the  engine. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  wish  you  would  state  just  what  you  mean 
by  ''preparing  the  engine."  Would  merely  oiling  up  at  this 
terminal  or  at  the  dei)ot  cover  it — oiling  around? 


319 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  other  duties  to  perform  besides 
oiling  up. 

Mr.  Sheean:     If  he  did  only  that? 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  are  a  Avhole  lot  of  things  that  tlie  rules 
enumerate,  that  men  are  required  to  do  before  leaving  a  terr 
minal  station.  I  know  several  duties  that  are  expected  of  an 
engineer  in  preparing  his  engine  for  the  trip.  He  has  got  to 
go  and  see  that  the  hose  is  tightened  up  between  the  tank  and 
the  engine,  he  has  got  to  look  at  the  water,  and  he  has  got  to 
see  that  the  sand  pipes  are  open,  in  proper  condition  to  be  used. 
There  are  a  whole  lot  of  things  besides  putting  a  little  oii  on 
the  engine;  because  you  can  put  all  the  oil  they  give  you  now 
on  an  engine  in  two  minutes  and  a  half  if  you  have  got  a  good 
can. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Assuming  that  everything  is  done  except 
merely  the  oiling.  In  that  situation  would  or  would  not  the 
outgoing  engineer  be  entitled  to  the  preparatory  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  the  duties  that  he  performed  come  within 
the  meaning  of  preparing  the  engine,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  what  I  want  to  get  at,  whether  or 
not  merely  oiling  the  engine,  doing  that  only,  would  bring  him 
within  this  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:  If  he  prepared  the  engine  and  made  all  the 
repairs  that  were  to  be  made. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  am  assuming  a  case  where  there  are  no  ' 
repairs.     Or,  let  us  take  a  concrete  case  of  running  an  engine 
thi'ough  and  changing  the  crew  en  route.     You  know  of  such 
runs,  I  assume? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Where  the  crew  changes,  but  the  engine  goes 
through? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Take  a  point  where  the  train  is  scheduled 
to  stop  for  five  minutes.  The  engine  is  uncoupled  from  the 
train 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  incoming  engineer  takes  it  down  a  quar- 
ter of  a  mile  to  the  water  tank.  At  that  point  shop  forces  knock 
the  fires  and  replenish  the  coal  and  replenish  the  water.     At* 


320 

that  point  it  is  turned  over  to  the  engineer  wlio  is  to  take  it  on 
from  that  place.  The  outgoing  engineer  does  oil  around  that 
engine,  then  backs  it  down  to  the  station  a  quarter  of  a  mile, 
couples  it  onto  that  train,  and  in  the  five,  eight  or  ten  minutes 
the  same  engine  proceeds  on  its  way.  In  that  situation,  is  the 
engineer  who  goes  on  with  the  same  engine  entitled  to  the  thirty 
minutes  preparatory  time  under  this  rule! 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     He  is ! 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  that  case  is  the  incoming  engineer 
entitled  to  the  terminal  delay  from  the  time  at  the  station  down 
to  this  water  tank,  a  quarter  of  a  mile  away  t 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  case  I  have  assumed,  the  incoming 
engineer,  after  uncoupling  the  engine,  takes  it  down  to  this 
water  tank,  and  at  the  water  tank  the  man  who  is  to  go  on  with 
the  same  engine  relieves  him. 

Mr,  Cadle:  Well,  I  presume  under  the  rule  that  when  the 
engineer  came  in  on  that  engine  his  time  would  not  cease  until 
he  turned  it  over  to  the  other  engineer.  He  would  get  paid 
up  to  that  point,  that  is,  the  point  of  relief. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  but  the  final  terminal  delay  for  engi- 
neers under  Article  6 — ''Final  terminal  delay  for  engineers  and 
firemen  in  passenger  service  shall  begin  at  the  time  they  arrive 
at  passenger  depot  and  will  end  when  relieved  from  duty. ' ' 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  was  assuming  the  case  that  he  came  into 
the  passenger  depot,  the  engine  was  uncoupled,  and  he  went 
on  down  this  quarter  mile  to  the  water  tank. 

Mr.  Cadle:  And  he  was  not  relieved  until  he  got  to  that 
quarter  mile,  to  the  water  tank? 

Mr.  Sheean:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  does  not  that  rule  specify  then  how  he 
shall  be  paid  for  it  ? 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  specifies  that  he  shall  be  paid  as  final 
terminal  delay — ^it  shall  begin  at  the  time  they  arrive  at  the 
passenger  depot  and  will  end  when  relieved  from  duty,  and  be 
paid  in  addition  to  the  time  or  miles  of  his  run.    So  that  under 


321 

this  rule  he  would  be  entitled  to  this  terminal  delay,  would  he 
not? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Well,  I  would  say  not. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  the  man  who  took  the  engine  at  the  water 
tank  (all  of  the  hostler  work  being  done  by  the  shop  force 
there,  the  engineer  merely  oiling  the  engine  and  backing  it  down 
to  the  train,  and  going  on  after  this  lapse  of  five  or  eight  min- 
utes) would  be  entitled  to  this  preparatory  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:  He  would  prepare  his  engine  before  he  would 
go  out  on  his  run.  He  was  held  responsible  for  the  engine  after 
he  took  charge  of  it.  That  is,  he  would  be  required  to  know 
that  he  could  make  a  successful  trij)  with  the  engine. 

There  is  one  point  I  want  you  to  understand,  Mr.  Sheean, 
that  you  may  get  around  one  of  these  Mikado  type  of  engines 
quicker  than  some  of  us  engineers  who  have  been  running  them 
for  twenty  years,  but  when  you  prepare  an  engine  and  get  it 
readj^  to  go  on  one  of  these  modern  passenger  trains  in  five  min- 
utes, you  may  give  that  train  five  minutes  on  your  schedule,  but 
it  will  take  him  ten  or  twelve  or  even  twenty  minutes  to  get 
away  from  his  station. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  was  assuming  in  the  question  on  some  of 
these  runs  that  you  were  familiar  with,  where  the  engine  does 
run  through,  but  the  crew  changes,  and  where  the  schedule  pro- 
vides for  a  five  minute  stop  or  a  ten  minute  stop,  and — if  you 
please — where  the  time  of  stop  is  fifteen  minutes,  and  the  fif- 
teen minutes  is  taken  up  in  the  changing  of  the  crew  and  recoal- 
ing  of  the  engine  by  the  hostler  and  knocking  the  fires  by  the 
hostler,  and  all  that  the  outgoing  engineer  does  in  that  connec- 
tion is  merely  the  oiling  around  of  his  engine.  In  that  case,  in 
such  a  situation,  this  rule  would  give  him  the  thirty  minutes? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Called  for  by  the  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  addition  to  the  miles  that  he  would  run 
on  that  trip? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  would  also  give  the  terminal  delay  to  the 
engineer  who  came  in  from  the  time  he  arrived  at  the  depot 
down  to  the  water  tank? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  did  not  say  so. 


322 

Mr.  Sheean:     You  did  not  sav  so? 
Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  can  you  point  to  anything  in  the  rule 
by  which  the  company  could  escape  paying  that,  if  the  rule — as 
worded,  I  mean — was  effective  on  any  railroad? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  sir,  I  don't  know  how  the  rule  would 
ai)ply  to  a  man  going  out.  If  you  pay  one  man  for  taking  care 
of  that  movement  there,  it  looks  to  me  the  engineers  won't  find 
.  much  fault,  or  the  firemen  either.  But,  in  regard  to  this  service, 
1  know  of  one  point  where  engineers  are  trained,  running 
through  from  St.  Louis  to  Kansas  City,  I  don't  know  of  the 
engine  being  cut  loose  from  the  train;  I  do  know  that  there  are 
two  men  that  come  down  there  and  shovel  the  coal  down,  shovel 
the  coal  ot¥  the  back  of  the  tank  for  the  fireman,  but  I  never 
saw  anyone  around  there  to  do  any  repairs,  or  to  make  any 
preparation  for  the  run,  only  the  engineer. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Exactly.  Well,  now  then,  let  us  take  that 
case,  where  they  don't  even  uncouple.  The  engine  comes  in  and 
is  not  uncoupled  from  the  passenger  train  at  all,  but  is  staying 
at  that  station — is  carded  to  stav  there  five  or  ten  minutes,  and 
assume  it  does  in  effect  have  to  stay  fifteen  minutes  while  this 
coal  is  shoveled  down  by  the  shop  men,  and  during  that  fifteen 
minutes'  time  both  the  engineers,  the  incoming  engineer  and 
the  outgoing  engineer,  are  on  that  engine;  the  outgoing  engi- 
neer, if  you  please,  oiling  around  during  that  time,  and  getting 
in  readiness  to  resume  this  trip  just  as  soon  as  the  train  is  ready 
to  go.  In  that  situation,  where  they  do  not  uncouple  at  all,  is 
the  engineer  entitled  to  this  thirty  minutes'  preparatory  time 
under  this  rule  f 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  is  the  inbound  engineer  on  that  train 
entitled  to  a  fifteen  minute  terminal  delay  between  the  arrival  at 
the  station  and  the  time  at  which  he  is  relieved? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Assume  he  is  not  released  until  the  train 
moves  out  of  the  station;  he  has  to  go  over  and  register, 
hasn't  he? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  as  soon  as  he  finds  out  that  he  has  got  all 
of  the  wheels — as  soon  as  he  finds  that  all  of  the  bolts  are  there, 
while  this  engineer  that  is  going  out  is  preparing  the  engine  for 


323 

his  end,  the  other  fellow  is  looking  her  over  to  see  what  he 
brought  in,  to  see  if  he  got  all  the  engine. 

Mr.  Sheean :     During  the  same  fifteen  minutes  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  When  lie  gets  done  with  that  he  takes  up  his 
little  tool  box  which  weighs  from  fifty  to  sixty  pounds — I  see 
they  use  a  w^ieelbarrow  up  there  now  to  wheel  it — and  he  will 
lug  that  tool  box  over  and  go  over  and  wash  up,  and  he  is  not 
charging  the  company  anything  for  it  at  all. 

Mr.  Sheean:  At  the  present  time  it  is  proposed  by  this 
rule  that  all  the  time,  from  the  time  of  arrival  until  he  is  re- 
leased, shall  be  charged  for? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  sir,  I  don't  think  so,  where  they  change 
engines. 

Mr.  Sheean:     This  makes  no  provision  for  exception. 

Mr.  Cadle :  I  know  that.  That  is  what  you  said.  I  sup- 
pose it  is  right. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  are,  Mr.  Cadle,  are  there  not,  in  a 
great  many  schedules  now,  provisions  for  the  situation,  of  a 
man  being  called  and  after  being  called  and  before  starting  on 
the  trip,  being  released  from  duty — a  great  many  schedules  cover 
the  situation  of  called  and  not  used! 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  but  very  few  cases. 

Mr.  Sheean:    What  is  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  but  very  few  cases. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Very  few  cases  occur  now? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  A  great  many  of  the  schedules  have  some 
such  provision  for  paying  a  quarter  of  a  day  or  some  such  time 
where  the  men  are  called  and  not  used? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  they  have  such  rules. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  this  presentation,  if  an  engineer  is 
called  and  gets  his  engine  ready,  by  oiling  around,  seeing  that 
the  supplies  are  on  the  engine,  seeing  that  there  is  water,  seeing 
that  there  is  coal,  and,  after  having  thus  made  his  inspection, 
is  notified  that  the  train  has  been  annulled,  does  he  receive  pre- 
paratory time  under  this  presentation? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  would  not  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Wliat  would  he  receive  under  the  proposed 
presentation? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Whatever  the  rule  provides  for. 


324 

Mr.  Slieean:     The  present  rule? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Slieean:  And  this  would  not  supersede  any  of  the 
schedule  provisions  as  to  called  and  not  used,  in  any  of  the  pres- 
ent schedules? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  don't  know  what  rule  you  are  referring  to. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  have  no  particular  rule  in  mind,  I  assure 
you,  Mr.  Cadle. 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  am  trying  to  give  testimony  on  this. 

Mr.  Slieean:  You  know  of  a  number  of  roads  which  pro- 
vide where  men  are  called  and  not  used,  they  shall  be  paid  a 
quarter  of  a  day? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  and  I  know  some  where  they  are  paid  for 
a  half  of  a  day,  and  I  know  some  of  them  where  they  are  paid 
for  a  full  day. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Take  the  one  who  is  paid  a  quarter  of  a  day, 
that  being  the  one  I  thought  was  more  generally  in  use,  in  this 
presentation  of  yours,  would  it  supersede  that  schedule  pro- 
vision? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know  any  rule  in  there  to  make  any 
change  in  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  no  claim  as  to  preparatory  time  or 
being  entitled  to  a  full  day  or  anything  of  that  sort,  under  this 
presentation,  that  would  supersede  the  right  to  pay  a  quarter 
of  a  day  in  that  situation  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :  In  my  judgment  that  is  a  matter  between  the 
railroad  company  and  the  engineers  and  firemen  to  settle.  It 
has  always  been  settled  by  them.  Those  rules  that  are  gotten 
up  have  been  agreed  to  between  the  railroad  companies  and  the 
employes.     They  are  in  that  schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Your  understanding  is,  that  even  though  this 
presentation  were  granted  in  its  entirety,  it  would  not  disturb 
any  of  those  rules? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  have  no  understanding  at  all.  "We  are  will- 
ing to  comply  with  the  rules  we  have  got  until  they  are  changed. 

Mr.  Sheean :  A\niat  I  am  seeking  to  get  at  is  whether  these 
rules,  according  to  your  intent  in  presenting  them,  would  change 
or  would  supersede  the  rule  which  pennitted  a  railroad  company 
to  pay  one-quarter  of  a  day  in  cases  where  men  were  called  and 
released  without  being  used. 


325 
Mr.  Cadle:     Those  released  would- 


Mr.  Sheean :     Whether  they  would  or  would  not. 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  don't  know;  I  don't  know  whether  they 
would  or  would  not.  I  don't  know  exactly  what  you  are  trying 
to  get  at;  one  time  you  talk  about  these  rules  and  then  you  are 
talking  about  the  rules  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  right,  Mr.  Cadle,  I  want  to  make  myself 
perfectly  clear.  We  will  assume  that  you  were  acting  in  good 
faith  with  the  general  manager  of  one  of  these  railroads 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  the  schedule  of  that  railroad  as  it 
existed  at  present  there  was  a  provision  that  in  case  men  were 
called  and  not  used,  the  men  would  be  entitled  to  one-fourth  of  a 
(Jay.  That  is  the  present  schedule,  Mr.  Cadle.  Assuming 
further,  that  as  a  result  of  the  award,  all  of  these  sixteen  articles 
were  granted,  would  you  or  would  you  not  be  able  to  retain  the 
rule  which  permitted  you  to  pay  one-fourth  of  a  day,  in  that 
situation? 

Mr.  Cadle :  If  they  were  not  part  of  the  award,  if  they  were 
not  a  question  to  be  arbitrated,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Then  with  these  sixteen  propositions  here,  if 
all  were  granted,  it  is  your  understanding  that  none  of  them 
would  conflict  with  such  a  rule  in  the  schedule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Cadle,  there  are  just  one  or  two 
matters  that  I  am  not  entirely  clear  about.  If  you  will  go  back 
for  just  a  moment,  if  you  please,  to  Article  1 ;  in  the  fourth  para- 
graph, "Overtime  in  all  through  service,  except  passenger  and 
switch,  will  be  computed  on  a  basis  of  ten  miles  per  hour  and 
paid  for  at  the  rate  of  fifteen  miles  per  hour,  at  rate  for  each 
class  of  engine  used."  In  any  of  these  schedules  in  which  an 
eight-hour  day  is  provided  in  freight  service — you  enumerated 
some  the  other  day — would  the  overtime  provided  for  in  this 
request,  if  granted,  be  applied  after  eight  hours,  to  that  road? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  they  would  retain  the  eight-hour  day, 
because  of  the  saving  clause,  and  apply  this  method  of  comput- 
ing overtime  wherever  the  day  was  a  shorter  day  than  the  one 
provided  in  these  articles'? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir. 


326 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  other  words,  Mr.  Cadle,  working  the  same 
number  of  lioiirs  on  two  roads,  if  a  road  now  had  an  eight-hour 
day,  and  on  that  road  at  any  time  a  man  worked  twelve  hours, 
there  would  be  four  hours  overtime  to  be  paid  at  time  and  a  half, 
if  this  rule  were  granted? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  don't  catch  your  meaning. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  begin  the  comi)utation  of  overtime  on  the 
eight-hour  road  after  eight  hours. 

Mr,  Cadle:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  all  overtime  would  be  jiaid  for  at  the 
rate  of  time  and  a  half? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that,  on  an  eight-hour  road,  in  case  a  man 
worked  for  twelve  hours,  four  hours  would  be  ])aid  at  time  and 
a  half? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  while  on  a  ten-hour  road  the  overtime 
at  time  and  a  half  would  only  be  computed  for  two  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  it  would  bring  about  a  greater 
spread,  a  greater  advance  on  the  eight-hour  road  than  on  the 
ten-hour  road? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Accentuating  any  differences  that  there  might 
be  now  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  Article  1,  also,  Mr.  Cadle,  an  inspec- 
tion train  or  an  officers '  special,  is  it  contemplated  that  the  five- 
hour  day  shall  apply  to  an  operation  of  that  sort? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Twenty  miles  an  hour,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  a  five  hour  day,  specifically  stated. 

Mr.  Cadle:  His  time  would  be  computed  on  a  basis  of 
twenty  miles  per  hour. 

Mr,  Sheean :  So  that  on  an  inspection  trip,  an  officer  going 
out  and  being  out  for  twelve  hours,  even  though  they  were  in 
the  terminals,  and  ran  only  sixty  miles  during  that  twelve  hours, 
he  would  be  paid  on  the  basis  of  each  five  hours  constituting  a 
day? 

Mr.  Cadle:  He  would  be  paid  overtime  after  five  hours, 
if  he  received  one  hundred  miles  or  less  for  his  dav's  w^ork. 


327 

Mr.  Slieeaii :  And  it'  the  inspection  train  was  ont  ten  hours, 
and  just  covered  fortj"  miles,  around  a])out  the  terminals,  he 
"O'ould  be  paid  two  days'  pay? 

]\[r.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  There  is  just  one  other  thing-  1  am  not  clear 
on,  and  that  is  Article  2,  just  before  the  rates : 

'^Seniority  Bights;  Rnlcs,  Hours  of  Service  and  Mileage. 
Seniority  rights  to  l)e  intercliangea))le.  Steam  rules,  hours  of 
service  and  mileage  to  apply  with  the  following  rates  of  pay." 

''Mileage,"  as  used  there,  was  intended  to  put  tliis  service 
all  on  the  one  hundred  mile  a  day  basis,  Avas  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Electric  service  and  gasoline  service? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes, 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  the  schedule,  referred  to  yesterday, 
of  a  $4.40  rate  on  the  Southern  Pacific  Eailroad,  in  a  ten  hour 
spread,  and  220  miles  operated  during  that  time,  now  paying 
$4.40  for  the  220  miles,  would  be  paid  on  the  basis  of  2.2  days? 

Mr.  Cadle:  It  would  lie  put  on  the  same  basis  with  the 
steam  rates. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Tliat  particular  run  we  were  talking  about? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Let  me  express  it  another  way:  the  rule  as" 
written  would  apply  to  the  electric  or  motor  car  service  in  the 
same  manner  in  Avhich  it  does  to  steam,  the  same  rules,  the 
same  rate  of  pay,  the  same  way  of  computing  your  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  the  same  mileage? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  what  T  am  getting  at. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  I  understood  it,  we  did  not  disagree  yes- 
terday on  that  schedule  of  the  Southern  Pacific  as  to  the  motor 
cars. 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     $4.40  for  220  miles? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  think  that  is  correct. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  effect  here  as  to  that  operation  would 
be  to  make  that  equivalent  to  2.2  days? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Mr.  Cadle,  just  to  correct  the  record,  either 


328 

you  or  1  or  the  stenographer  is  wrong  in  two  places.  I  think 
we  can  agree  on  it.  At  page  250  of  the  record  I  am  reported  as 
asking  this  question : 

**You  answered  the  other  day,  and  I  thought  inadvertently, 
that  in  the  eastern  territory  they  awarded  us  that  25  cent  dif- 
ferential  where  road  engines  were  used  in  the  yard.  That  is 
an  error,  is  it  not  ? ' ' 

"Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  it  was  west." 

I  assume  that  what  you  meant  there  was  ''South,"  or 
"Southeast"? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Just  straighten  it  out  in  your  own  way. 

Mr.  Cadle:  In  the  western  country  and  in  the  southeast- 
ern country  we  have  railroads  that  pay  a  differential  of  25 
cents  when  road  engines  are  used  in  yard  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  wish  the  stenographer  would  read  that 
answer. 

(The  stenographer  read  as  follows:) 

"Mr.  Cadle:  In  the  Western  country  and  in  the  South- 
eastern country  we  have  railroads  that  pay  a  differential  of  25 
cents  when  road  engines  are  used  in  yard  service. ' ' 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  Cadle,  do  you  desire  in  any  way  to 
change,  and  if  you  do,  please  put  in  your  own  language  whatever 
change  j'ou  wish  to  make.  I  thought  there  was  a  stenographic 
error  in  that  particular  line.  If  you  think  not,  why.  I  will  ask 
you  to  state  it  in  your  own  way,  and  in  youi*  own  language. 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  have  just  stated  the  answer  that  I 
would  like  to  make. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman:  Are  you  through  with  the  witness,  Mr. 
Sheean? 

Mr.  Sheean:    Yes. 

The  Chairman :  You  may  proceed  with  the  redirect  exami- 
nation. 

REDIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Chairman,  if  you  will  for  a  moment  pardon 
a  personal  reference  to  myself,  it  seems  to  me  that  we  are  not 


Oi 


29 

going  at  this  thing  perhaps  in  tlio  right  way  to  get  results,  and 
results  are  all  I  am  looking  for.  Perhaps  I  have  been  ''Erd- 
manized"  and  "Newlandized"  more  than  any  other  living  man, 
and  this  is  not  my  first  experience  in  an  arbitration  case.  It 
does  impress  me  that  we  are  trying  this  more  from  a  lawyer's 
standpoint,  and  that  we  are  trying  either  to  tangle  up  our  wit- 
nesses or  to  befog  the  case.  Now,  I  want  to  assure  you,  so  far 
as  our  side  is  concerned,  that  we  do  not  want  to  do  anything  but 
present  the  exact  facts  of  the  case  before  this  Board;  and  it 
does  not  matter  what  the  personal  opinion  of  Mr.  Cadle  may  be, 
or  anything  else.  The  facts  that  we  want  to  get  before  the 
Board  are,  Avhat  effect  is  the  decision  of  this  Board  going  to 
have  on  the  great  rank  and  file  of  these  men  who  are  going  to 
work  under  this  award  after  you  have  handed  it  down. 

I  want  to  refer  in  the  first  place  to  a  statement  of  yesterday, 
that  the  other  side  referred  to  incidentally,  and  with  some  laugh- 
ter, to  show  how  ridiculous  it  was.  It  is  on  page  263  of  the 
record,  that  Northern  Pacific  passenger  train  that  was  derailed 
1,000  feet  outside  of  the  yard,  and  all  the  yardmen  in  the  yard 
dropped  their  work  and  ran  down  to  see  what  the  matter  was. 

In  the  first  place,  not  criticising  m}^  friends,  the  enemy,  I 
do  not  know  what  in  the  world  they  sent  all  the  yardmen  down 
there  for  in  the  first  place,  unless  it  was  to  look  on.  In  the  next 
place,  under  their  rules  on  that  road,  it  was  absolutely  impos- 
sible for  those  crews  to  claim  a  day  for  that.  I  want  to  read 
you  the  rule,  Rule  85  of  the  Northern  Pacific  schedule: 

"Switch  engineers  required  to  perform  service  outside  of 
yards  will  be  paid  for  actual  time  so  employed  at  road  rates  in 
addition  to  the  minimum  day " 

Referring,  of  course,  to  the  minimum  day  in  the  yard.  If 
a  man  was  down  there  thirty  minutes,  he  would  be  paid  thirty 
minutes'  actual  time.  If  he  was  down  there  an  hour,  he  would 
be  paid  for  one  hour.  And  while  perhaps  it  is  true  that  some 
of  our  men  might  have  claimed  a  day,  it  is  also  perhaps  just 
as  true  that  there  are  many  officials  who  will  say  that  so  and  so 
does  not  mean  it,  just  as  well  as  our  men.  We  do  not  guarantee 
that  our  men  are  all  perfect  and  that  they  will  not  try  to  gouge, 
perhaps,  when  occasion  presents  itself;  but  I  think  perhaps  the 
honors  are  about  even. 


:J30 

There  is  anotlior  tiling  I  want  to  bring-  out.  With  your  per- 
mission T  Avould  like  to  read  into  the  record  the  Kansas  law 
making  it  an  offense  for  any  num  or  any  official  to  make  an 
efficiency  test — I  will  not  use  the  word  "surprise,"  as  it  is  objec- 
tionable to  the  other  side — by  turning  switch  lights;  and  we 
shall  endeavor  to  prove  as  soon  as  the  evidence  arrives — and  it 
will  be  here  shortly — that  they  are  still  making  those  tests, 
regardless  of  the  law. 

The  Chairman:  L^lease  indicate  the  portion  that  you  wish 
to  have  inserted,  and  it  will  be  inserted  in  the  record. 

Mr,  Stone:     I  have  indicated  what  T  desire  to  have  i^rinted. 

(The  statute  referred  to  is  as  follows:) 
"Senate  bill  No.  483.  Bv  Wilson  of  Jefferson. 

AN  ACT 

RELATING  TO  SWITCH  LIGHTS  AND  LIGHTS  CONTROLLING  THE  MOVE- 
MENTS OF  TRAINS  ON  RAILROADS,  AND  PRESCRIBING  PENALTIES 
FOR  THE  VIOLATION  THEREOF. 

''Be  it  enacted  by  the  Legislature  of  the  State  of  Kansas: 

"Section  1.  It  shall  be  the  duty  of  any  person,  firm  or 
corporation,  or  receiver,  owning  or  operating  any  railroad  in 
whole  or  in  part,  in  the  State  of  Kansas,  to  equip  and  maintain 
in  good  condition,  switch  lights  on  all  main  line  switch  stands, 
except  where  automatic  block  signals  are  used  and  where  such 
automatic  signals  are  so  located  as  to  answer  the  purpose  of 
switch  lights,  and  to  keep  all  lights  controlling  the  movements 
of  trains  on  the  main  line  burning  from  sunset  to  sunrise;  pro- 
vided, this  Act  shall  not  apply  to  branch  lines,  where  trains  are 
not  regularly  operated  at  night,  or  in  cases  where  the  lights 
have  been  properly  lit  but  have  failed  for  causes  beyond  the  con- 
trol of  the  company,  and  it  has  not  had  reasonable  time  to  re- 
light them. 

"Section  2.  That  an}^  person,  firm  or  corporation  or  re- 
ceiver, o^Tiing  or  operating  any  railroad,  in  whole  or  in  part  in 
the  State  of  Kansas,  violating  any  provision  of  this  Act,  shall 
be  deemed  guilty  of  a  misdemeanor  and  fined  in  the  sum  of  not 
less  than  one  hundred  dollars  nor  more  than  five  hundred  dollars 
for  each  offense. 

"Section  3.  That  any  person  who  shall  manipulate  or  tam- 
per with  any  switch  stand,  target,  switch  light  or  light  control- 


331 

ling  llie  movement  of  trains,  for  the  purpose  of  misleading  or  de- 
ceiving engineers,  firemen  or  train  crews,  sliall  be  deemed  guilty 
of  a  misdemeanor  and  fined  in  the  sum  of  not  less  than  three  hun- 
dred dollars  and  not  to  exceed  one  thousand  dollars;  provided, 
that  in  case  such  unlawful  act  shall  result  in  causing  death  or 
great  bodily  injury  to  any  person  or  persons,  it  shall  be  deemed 
a  felony  and  shall  be  jiunishable  by  imprisonment  at  hard  labor 
in  the  State  Penitentiar}-  for  a  period  of  not  less  than  one  year, 
nor  more  than  twent.v-five  years. 

"Section  -1-.  This  Act  to  take  effect  and  be  in  force  from 
and  after  its  publication  in  the  official  state  paper." 

Mr.  Stone:  I  should  like,  if  I  may  l)e  ])ermitted,  to  correct 
three  or  four  either  misunderstandings  or  an  attempt  to  read 
something  into  these  articles  that  is  not  here. 

For  example,  the  question  of  mountain  grade.  We  take  the 
position  that  the  1.8  per  cent  rule  fixed  where  that  rate  shall 
apply,  and  we  do  not  expect  to  define  on  what  particular  spot 
of  the  geography  that  particular  grade  is.  Because,  if  we  did 
so,  as  soon  as  this  was  in  print  we  should  find  out  that  that 
mountain  had  sunk,  that  it  was  a  hole  in  the  ground,  instead  of 
being  a  mountain. 

Again,  in  Article  3.  Article  3  defines  as  clearly  as  we 
know  how  to  put  the  English  language  into  words  the  definition 
of  a  local  train,  and  it  does  not  do  anything  else — the  first  para- 
graph. It  says:  "Local  trains  are"  what!  "are  way  freight 
or  mixed  trains  whose  work  is  loading  or  unloading  freight  or 
doing  station  switching  en  route."  A  clear  definition,  and  that 
is  the  only  place  where  a  mixed  train  takes  the  local  freight 
rate,  where  it  does  that  class  of  work. 

Now,  it  was  brought  out  yesterday  in  regard  to  these — 
well,  the  expedited  movement.  They  don't  say  whether  it  was 
a  refrigerator  car  or  whether  it  was  an  express  car  that  was 
handled  in  passenger  trains.  I  take  it  for  granted  it  was  an 
express  car  and  the  meat  was  going  by  express.  Is  that  as- 
sumption correct  ? 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  think  not.  The  questions  I  asked  yester- 
day were  on  refrigerator  cars  occasionally  attached  to  a  pas- 
senger train,  or  a  stock  car  occasionally  attached  to  a  passenger 
train. 

Mr.  Stone:     A  great  many  Mather  stock  cars  and  horses 


332 

arc  sliipi)od  by  express.  Be  that  as  it  may,  Mr.  Chairiiiaii, 
nearly  all  the  rules  in  the  Western  territory  provide — or  many 
of  the  rules  in  the  AVestern  territory  provide  that  when  one  or 
more  freight  ears  are  handled  in  a  passenger  train  it  takes  the 
freight  rate  for  the  trip,  or  for  the  particular  ])art  of  the  trip 
where  the  freight  cars  were  handled.  Article  number  3,  de- 
fining a  way  freight  or  a  mixed  train,  has  nothing  to  do  with 
that  in  the  least. 

The  same  is  true  of  these  irregular  freights  that  do  station 
switching.  I'nless  they  will  do  as  they  have  in  the  past,  annul 
the  schedules  of  the  regular  trains  and  run  an  irregular  crew 
out  of  the  pool  service  instead  and  claim  it  is  not  a  local.  But 
it  never  was  intended  to  bring  those  two  together. 

Mr.  Cadle,  yesterday  they  made  quite  a  strong  point  on 
that  one  man  who  worked  100  miles  and  was  twelve  hours  doing- 
it,  and  by  so  doing  got  three  hours  overtime,  and  the  other  poor 
fellow  who  worked  120  miles  in  twelve  hours  and  did  not  get 
any  overtime.  Now,  would  it  not  be  possible  for  that  man  to 
make  his  same  120  miles  in  five  hours? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  he  might  have  gotten  in  and  got  his  rest 
and  been  ready  to  take  another  trip  before  the  man  who  got  in 
iiis  hundred  miles  in  twelve  hours  arrived  at  all? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Again,  in  regard  to  that  man  who  ran  207 
miles,  I  believe  it  was,  in  four  hours  on  a  passenger  train.  Is 
is  not  a  fact  that  the  man  is  a  piece  worker,  and  is  paid  so  much 
for  each  mile  that  he  reels  off  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Y^es,  sir,  under  their  schedule. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  also  a  fact  that  the  company  received 
just  as  much  revenue  for  hauling  that  train  207  miles  in  four 
hours  as  they  would  have  received  had  they  been  ten  hours 
en  route? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  i)resume  so,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Well,  they  don't  charge  any  more  for  a  passen- 
ger who  is  ten  hours  on  the  road  than  they  do  for  one  who  is  four 
hours  on  the  road  going  the  same  distance,  do  they? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then,  the  fact  remains  that  the  company  re- 
ceived the  revenue  for  his  service? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 


333 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  a  fact  thJat  Article  2  that  says,  ' '  En- 
gineers and  firemen  on  locomotives  in  pusher  and  helper  service, 
etc.,  will  be  paid  through  freight  rate  according  to  the  class  of 
engine, ' ' — is  it  not  a  fact  that  that  is  simply  to  fix  the  rate  that 
they  will  receive? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  It  has  nothing  to  do  with  designating  what  is 
a  pusher  or  a  helper  service,  has  it? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  are  fairly  familiar  with  the  award  in  the 
Eastern  territory,  are  you  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Do  you  know  of  anything  in  that  award — I  am 
speaking  now  of  the  award  that  was  handed  down — do  you  know 
of  anything  in  that  award  that  says  anything  about  short  turn- 
around passenger  service  of  70  miles  or  less  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  sir,  not  in  the  award. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  there  was  a  compromise 
settlement  made  long  after  the  award  had  been  handed  down? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  sir,  it  was  a  compromise.  The  arbitrators 
met  and  fixed  the  rule. 

Mr.  Stone:  Well,  not  all  of  the  arbitrators,  did  they?  A 
representative  from  each  side. 

Mr.  Cadle :  Mr.  Morrissey  and  Mr.  Willard.  I  was  present 
at  one  conference  when  they  were  working  on  that. 

Mr.  Stone :  That  was  the  only  one  that  was  held,  the  one 
that  you  were  present  at.  That  was  in  regard  to  fixing  the  turn- 
around rule  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  If  there  is  any  question  in  regard  to  that,  Mr. 
Chairman,  I  have  a  copy  of  the  original  award,  and  a  copy  of  the 
supplemental  compromise  award  that  was  made  later  on  in  the 
east. 

The  Chairman :    You  can  put  that  in  as  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  Stone :     All  right. 

Mr.  Sheean:  We  intended  to  file,  if  the  Commission 
pleases,  or  to  ask  leave  to  file  copies  of  the  awards,  not  only  in 
that,  but  in  the  firemen's  case  and  the  conductors'  and  trainmen's 
cases,  so  that  for  such  historical  value  as  they  might  have  they 
would  be  accessible  to  the  ]5oard  during  their  conferences.    Some 


334 

of  the  qiiestioiij*.  of  course,  are  touched  aud  passed  u])ou  in  those 
various  awards.  We  inten(le<l  to  ask  leave  to  do  that,  and  are 
supplied  with  copies,  so  that  if  during  this  time  it  is  desired  to 
have  the  award  in  anv  of  those  cases,  thev  can  be  furnished. 

Mr.  Stone:  1  might  add,  Mr.  Chairman,  if  it  would  he  of 
real  historical  value,  some  of  the  inside  historv  that  goes  with 
it  ought  to  be  tiled  also. 

]\lr.  Xagel:     We  don't  want  to  set  that  precedent. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  assure  you  there  are  some  interesting  side- 
lights on  the  Eastern  award. 

Mr.  Xagel :     Sufficient  unto  the  day  is  the  evil  thereof. 

Mr.  Stone:     The  trouble  is,  it  was  all  evil  with  us. 

Mr.  Burgess:  ^li".  Stone,  Avould  you  please  mention  the 
names  of  the  gentlemen  who  comprised  the  Eastern  Board  of 
Arbitration.    I  have  forgotten  who  they  were. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Morrissey  represented  the  interests  of  the 
engineers.  Mr.  Daniel  Willard  represented  the  interests  of  the 
fifty-two  railroads  involved.  Honorable  Oscar  Strauss,  Mr.  M. 
Eidlitz,  a  contractor  of  New  York,  Mr.  Shaw  of  Review  of  Re- 
views, Mr.  Judson,  an  attorney  from  St.  Louis,  and  Dr.  Charles 
Van  Hise,  president  of  the  University  of  Wisconsin.  This  was 
not  an  arbitration  under  the  Erdman  Act.  It  was  an  arbitration 
outside,  with  live  from  the  public. 

xVnd  while  we  are  on  this  subject  I  do  not  think  it  is  digress- 
ing to  say  that  had  it  been  under  the  Erdman  Act  we  should 
not  have  had  to  accept  the  award,  because  they  arbitrated  every- 
thing else  but  the  question  submitted  to  them.  We  even  settled 
the  strike  of  the  employes  over  in  France,  among  other  things. 
And  after  they  got  through  with  the  hearings — it  is  an  open 
secret,  and  I  am  telling  nothing  on  the  outside  that  I  should 
not — that  the  chairman  insisted  that  the  Board  play  politics 
until  after  the  election  was  over  in  New  York  State,  to  see  if 
he  was  elected  Governor  or  not  before  they  gave  the  award  out. 

Mr.  Nagel:     There  is  nobody  running  here, 

Mr.  Stone:  Well,  he  was  one  of  the  "also  rans."  And, 
after  we  did  get  the  award,  which  was  handed  down  in  Novem- 
ber, 1912,  it  is  all  finished  up  at  the  present  time  aud  put  in 
effect  except  one  question  on  the  New  York  Central,  where  we 
are  arbitrating  what  the  arbitration  to  the  arbitration  really 
means.    Outside  of  that  we  closed  it  all  up  about  two  weeks  ago. 


335 

and  iimch  of  the  settlement  was  made  in  a  compromise.  Both 
sides  were  so  completely  disgusted  we  agreed  to  get  it  cleaned 
up  and  get  started  over  again  as  soon  as  we  get  through  here. 

The  Chairman:  Well,  in  this  arbitration  we  will  confine 
ourselves  to  the  matters  at  issue,  strictly. 

Mr.  Stone:  Yes,  I  understand.  Mr.  Cadle,  in  speaking  of 
the  switching  service,  they  dwelt  quite  heavily  on  that  ten  hour 
continuous  time  and  the  thirty  minutes  undisturbed.  Why  do 
they  want  a  man  to  have  thirty  minutes  imdisturbed?  Is  it 
not  a  fact  that  he  wants  to  have  time  to  take  his  lunch  pail  be- 
tween his  knees  and  eat  his  lunch,  without  being  required  to 
move  every  few  minutes! 

Mr.  Cadle:  There  are  cases  where  they  would  require  a 
man  to  move. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  it  is  quite  common  that 
switchmen  will  be  released  one  at  a  time  and  go  to  lunch,  and 
keep  on  working  the  engine  crew? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  they  did  that  kind  of  work.  I  don't  know 
whether  they  are  doing  it  now  or  not. 

Mr.  Stone:  Well,  it  used  to  be  quite  a  common  practice, 
did  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  I  have  had  men  do  that  on  me  when  I 
ran  a  switch  engine. 

Mr.  Sheean^     Before  1892. 

Mr.  Stone:     Well,  some  of  us  were  here  before  the  war. 

Coming  back  to  that  question  of  that  trolley  car  up  on  that 
Burlington  line.  I  am  not  quite  satisfied  with  that  in  the  shape 
we  left  it  yesterday.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  that  line  between 
Deadwood  and  Lead,  was  originally  operated  by  steam  loco- 
motives f 

Mr.  Cadle :     That  is  mv  information,  ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  when  it  was  electrified  the  steam  crew 
was  laid  off? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  it  is  true  that  this  trollev  car  runs  through 
a  few  blocks  of  a  street  in  Deadwood? 

Mr.  Cadle:  The  information  shoAvs  that  they  built  four 
or  five  blocks  through  the  streets  of  Lead,  as  I  understand  it, 
and  converted  it  into  an  electric  railroad. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  then  ran  four  miles  over  the  main  line 
to  Deadwood? 


336 

Mr.  Cadle :     Three.    I  think  it  is  three  miles. 

Mr.  Stone:  Three  miles?  Well,  it  is  three  and  a  half. 
Who  are  running  those  cars  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  understand  that  there  is  a  trainman 
on  one  of  them,  and  an  ex-section  foreman  on  another. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  that  example  yesterday  of  a  man  running 
90  miles  in  six  hours,  and  then  wanting  to  know  if  he  laid  there 
three  hours  and  then  came  in  and  had  another  hour,  if  he  would 
get  any  overtime.  Your  reply  was  that  he  would  not.  Sup- 
pose that  man  had  run  90  miles  in  six  hours,  and  then  had  been 
put  into  switching  service,  how  long  could  they  have  s^^^tched 
him  before  his  overtime  would  have  begun?  In  other  words, 
when  he  ran  90  miles  would  he  not  have  given  the  value,  even 
though  he  ran  it  in  six  hours,  the  90  miles? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  I  understand  under  your  present  schedule 
and  your  present  rules  and  jouv  proposition,  that  if  a  man  runs 
90  miles  and  he  arrives  at  a  terminal,  he  is  done.  He  don't  do 
any  switching.  And  if  he  does  any  switching  he  will  be  paid  for 
it  in  addition  to  his  day's  work. 

Mr.  Stone :  Regarding  that  220  miles  that  that  man  on  the 
Southern  Pacific  ran  that  gasoline  motor ;  he  runs  220  miles  for 
$4.40.  Is  it  not  true  that  the  engineers  on  the  Southern  Pacific 
lines  in  Oregon  draw  practically  steam  rates  under  steam  con- 
ditions ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     They  do  in  Oregon,  I  understand,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  true  that  in  the  recent  settlement  made 
of  the  multiple  unit  electric  service  at  Oakland  for  the  Southern 
Pacific  Lines,  they  made  a  settlement  there  of  a  minimum  rate 
of  $5,  with  an  average  mileage  of  50  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir,  that  is  the  arbitration  award. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  the  overtime  is  paid  at  the  rate  of  twelve 
and  a  half  miles  per  hour? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  don't  know  what  the  overtime  is  that 
is  paid  now. 

Mr.  Stone :  Yesterday,  at  page  197,  Mr.  Sheean  read  into 
the  record  that  it  was  the  desire  of  the  Managers'  Committee  to 
submit  fairly  to  the  Board  of  Arbitrators  the  cost  to  the  rail- 
roads of  the  application  of  the  sixteen  articles  submitted,  and 
insisted  that  you  say  how  Article  1  would  apply,  so  that  they 
could  make  up  their  figures.    Is  it  not  a  fact  that  they  have 


337 

already  submitted  to  us,  long  ago,  the  cost  of  these  articles'? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact,  that  it  is  printed  by  the  thou- 
sands and  sent  out  broadcast  to  the  public,  the  same  statement 
of  what  the  cost  would  be? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  they  sent  it  out.  I  presume  the  public 
got  them.  I  don't  know  what  they  did  with  that. 

Mr.  Stone:  Has  there  been  any  revision  of  these  articles 
since  that  time  that  would  change  those  figures'? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  If  their  figures  were  correct,  then,  would  they 
not  be  correct  now,  without  making  up  any  further  estimates? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  presume  so,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  page  212,  you  discussed  the  transfer  and 
belt  line  service.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  for  years  and  years  we 
have  been  trying  to  get  railroad  officials  to  agree  to  a  definition 
of  what  transfer  service  consists  of? 


Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 


Yes,  sir. 

Have  we  ever  been  able  to  agree? 
No,  sir,  not  definitely. 

On  page  215,  as  to  unclassified  service,  is  it 
not  a  fact  that  we  have  learned,  through  years  of  bitter  experi- 
ence, that  such  a  blanket  rule  as  this,  covering  unclassified 
service,  is  necessary  in  order  to  protect  our  men? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  sir.  A  man  should  know,  when  he  per- 
forms any  kind  of  service,  what  he  is  going  to  get  for  his  day's 
pay. 

Mr.  Stone:  Well,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  it  is  necessary  to 
nail  every  one  of  these  propositions  down  in  order  to  protect 
the  interests  of  the  men? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  if  you  haven 't  got  a  rule  in  your  schedule 
that  fixes  the  rate  and  how  the  rates  and  rules  shall  apply  to  a 
run,  then  there  is  controversy  at  once  as  to  how  that  run  shall 
be  paid. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  page  214,  you  discussed  the  meaning  of  a 
work  train  engineer  who  is  not  allowed  to  go  home  on  Sundays ; 
a  man  not  released  and  allowed  to  go  home  on  Sundays,  who 
claims  pay  for  his  time,  and  that  is  all  that  he  has  to  sell, — ^is 
it  not  a  fact  that  he  claims  pay  for  two  reasons,  the  first  is  that 


338 

they  use  Jiis  time  ou  Sundays,  aud  tlie  otlier  is  that  he  is  supposed 
to  do  light  ruuniug  repairs  to  the  engine? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Yes,  I  know  eases  where  they  expect  them  to 
do  some  running  repairs  on  Sundays. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  know  of  any  place  where  the  engineer 
is  required  to  wash  boiler  on  Sunday,  on  work  trains? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Not  recently.  I  have  known  that  to  be  done, 
but  not  verv  recently. 

Mr.  Stone:  Regarding  this  question  of  going  to  and  from 
wrecks,  it  is  almost  the  universal  practice  now  to  pay  mileage 
to  and  from  wrecks,  and  by  the  hourly  rate  while  at  the  wreck? 

Mr.  Cadle:     There  are  schedules  that  read  that  way. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  much  of  this  wrecking  is 
done  by  chain  gang  crews? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  other  words,  there  is  no  construction  train 
at  that  terminal  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Tlicy  use  freight  crews,  chain  gang  engineers, 
to  perform  a  great  deal  of  the  wrecking  service.  I  don't  know 
of  any  railroad  in  the  western  country  that  has  got  a  crew  regu- 
larly assigned  to  wrecking  service. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  often  the  case  they  have  a  wrecking  crew 
for  the  steam  d(M'rick  and  nil  that,  tluit  they  call,  but  take  the 
first  crew  out .' 

Mr.  Cadle:  They  have  an  engineer  that  handles  that  der- 
rick car,  on  a  great  nuiny  railroads,  and  he  is  on  duty  all  the 
time,  as  1  understand  it,  or  a  great  ])ortion  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Stone :  Those  single  trains  on  those  branch  lines  that 
they  s})oke  of  yesterday,  that  ])erhaps  only  run  sixty  or  seventy 
miles;  isn't  it  a  fact  that  most  of  them  make  up  in  hours  what 
they  fail  to  give  in  miles? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir,  under  your  i)resent  rule. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  also  a  fact  that  being  the  only  particu- 
lar train  on  that  branch,  there  is  no  delay  time  waiting  for  otlier 
trains  of  the  same  class  to  clear  the  main  line,  or  for  trains  of 
a  superior  class,  so  they  do  nothing  but  work — they  just  work 
all  day? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  they  do  all  of  the  work  that  there  is  on 
those  branches.  If  they  are  the  only  crew  that  there  is  there,- 
they  surely  do  about  all  the  work  that  there  is  there.     There 


339 

are  a  great  many  of  those  short  runs  where  they  do  a  certain 
amount  of  switching  at  stations,  and  do  other  work.  In  fact, 
you  go  to  work  and  take  on  a  branch  line,  where  there  is  but  one 
crew,  as  a  general  proposition,  the  railroad  will  use  that  crew  to 
do  work  train  work,  handling  ballast  and  material,  and  it  has 
been  my  experience  that  they  have  got  a  fairly  good  day's  work 
out  of  the  men  for  the  money  that  they  paid  them  for  the  trip. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  page  223,  yesterday,  that  constructive  mile- 
age proposition,  between  Winslow  and  Williams,  on  the  Santa  Fe 
— Coast  Lines, — that  was  referred  to,  where  the  actual  mileage  is 
ninety-three  and  they  are  paid  for  one  hundred? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Ninety-two  miles,  I  think. 

Mr.  Stone :  Ninetj^-three — there  was  a  question  of  whether 
it  was  ninety-two  or  ninety-three,  at  any  rate  they  are  paid  con- 
structive mileage. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  There  is  really  no  benefit  to  the  engineer  unless 
he  gets  in  inside  of  ten  hours,  is  there  1 

Mr.  Cadle :  There  is  a  benefit  to  the  engineer  if  he  doubles 
the  road. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  can  use  a  man  the  full  ten  hours  for  the 
trip  between  those  two  points,  can't  youf 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Why  would  there  be  a  benefit  to  the  engineer 
on  a  long  division  of  ninety-two  miles — do  you  know  of  any 
schedule  that  would  be  called  a  turn-around  run,  where  the  dis- 
tance is  as  great  as  that  f 

Mr.  Cadle :  They  pay  one  hundred  miles  on  each  leg  of  the 
trip,  and  if  they  did  not  do  that  they  would  combine  the  mileage 
and  make  it  continuous. 

Mr.  Stone :     They  do  that  on  some  of  these  roads,  do  they? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Yes,  they  do.  We  are  speaking  about  construc- 
tive mileage,  where  they  are  allowed  constructive  mileage  in  the 
mountains,  on  that  Winslow  run. 

Mr.  vStone:  Winslow  isn't  in  tlie  mountains — it  wasn't  the 
last  time  I  was  out  there. 

Mr.  Cadle:     Well,  it  is  stormy. 

Mr,  Stone :  The  only  storm  I  ever  saw  out  there  was  a  sand 
storm  blowing  across  the  desert. 

Mr.  Cadle :     That  would  help  some. 


340 

Mr.  Stone:  Page  229,  miDe  runs.  Mr.  Sheean  asked  you 
if  this  article  was  intended  to  cover  only  service  that  is  thus 
specified,  and  you  replied  yes.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  it  is  intended 
to  apply  to  work  of  this  class,  regardless  of  whether  it  is  so 
specified  or  not  1' 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then,  they  can  call  it  by  any  name  they  choose, 
where  the  character  of  the  work  partakes  of  the.  nature  of  mine 
runs? 

Mr.  Cadle:  You  take,  on  a  great  many  railroads  they  have 
different  names  that  they  use.  Some  of  them  call  them  mine 
runs,  some  call  them  traveling  switch  engines,  and  they  'have  a 
great  many  names  for  them.  On  the  Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas 
I  understand  they  call  them  ''bum  runs";  but  the  service  that 
we  were  talking  about  is  mine  service.  I  tried  to  define  what 
constituted  mine  service,  as  I  understood  it. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  name  that  he  calls  it  generally  depends 
on  how  tired  he  gets,  doesn't  it? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  they  can  work  you  a  good  many  hours 
on  a  mine  run. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  page  279,  yesterday,  in  exhibit  2,  as  to  the 
hours  of  service, — do  you  know  of  anything  in  the  Hours  of 
Service  Law  that  says  anything  about  rest? 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir,  it  does  not.    It  says  time  off  duty. 

Mr.  Stone:  A  man  doesn't  have  to  take  his  rest  unless  he 
wants  to  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Again,  in  regard  to  that  fireman  on  the  North 
Western  that  was  called  for  rest  in  twelve  hours,  did  you  ever 
know  of  an  entire  crew  being  tied  up  because  the  fireman  was 
injured  or  taken  sick  out  on  the  road? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Not  if  they  could  get  another  man.  I  don't 
know  of  any  case  where  they  would  tie  a  crew  up  on  account  of 
a  man  getting  injured. 

Mr.  Stone:  Isn't  it  more  than  likely  that  the  brakeman 
would  either  fire  the  engine,  or  the  engineer  would  put  him  up 
on  the  seat  to  run  the  engine  and  he  would  do  the  firing  himself, 
if  he  was  sick  or  injured? 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  is  generally  the  custom,  yes  sir,  until 
they  get  in. 


341 

Mr.  Stone:  Referring  to  this  deadheading  article,  Mr. 
Cadle,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  oftentimes  a  man  is  called  out  to 
deadhead  on  company  business,  and  by  his  being  so  called,  per- 
haps only  gets  a  short  deadhead  trip,  and  the  next  man  out  will 
probably  catch  a  good  run,  and  will  earn  three  or  four  times  as 
much  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:    Yes,  sir,  that  will  occur. 

Mr.  Stone:     It  works  out  that  way  at  times? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  So  instead  of  being  a  help  to  the  man  by  being- 
deadheaded,  it  works  a  financial  loss  to  him,  does  it  not,  by 
being  called  for  deadheading? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Some  of  them,  it  will,  in  their  turn.  They 
may  be  first  out  and  catch  a  deadhead  trip  that  may  pa^^  them 
a  day's  work,  where  some  fellow  would  catch  a  run  that  would 
pay  him  a  great  deal  more  money. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  remember  those  two  examples  about 
both  men  being  called  at  the  same  time,  and  one  went  down  in 
the  caboose  and  went  to  sleej)  at  eight  o'clock  and  did  not  move 
until  eleven,  and  got  in  at  one,  and  the  other  was  called  at  eleven 
and  got  in  at  one.  If  you  were  going  to  be  deadheaded,  which  of 
those  two  trips  would  you  prefer? 

Mr.  Cadle:  Really,  I  was  trying  to  fathom  that  out  in  my 
own  mind  so  I  could  give  Mr.  Sheean  an  intelligent  answer  on 
that.    I  don't  know  which  of  those  two  men  I  would  rather  be. 

Mr.  Stone :  Would  you  like  to  go  to  sleep  in  the  average  way 
car,  around  a  yard,  the  way  they  handle  them  in  making  up 
these  tonnage  trains? 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  depends  a  good  deal  on  the  disposition 
of  the  man  that  is  in  the  caboose.  I  never  could  sleep  in  a 
caboose. 

Mr.  Stone :  Do  you  think  you  would  be  able  to  sleep,  the 
way  thev  handle  them  now? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Well,  you  might  get  a  little  rest,  but  they  would 
wake  you  up. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  other  words,  you  would  not  sleep  as  sound 
as  you  would  in  your  bed  at  home? 

Mr.  Cadle :  Oil,  no ;  I  would  prefer  to  be  in  bed — most  any- 
body would,  I  suppose. 

Mr,  Stone :     Then  when  vou  arrived  at  the  other  end  of  the 


road  at  one  o'clock  in  tlie  morning-,  would  you  bo  in  as  good 
physical  condition  to  go  out  lor  tlic  rest  of  your  day's  work  as* 
thougli  you  had  had  a  sleep  in  bed  until  eleven  o'clock  and  then 
had  been  called  or  only  on  dutv  two  hours,  or  onlv  called  two 
hours  ? 

Mr.  Cadle :    I  think  not. 

Mr.  Stone:  Technically,  under  the  law,  you  arc  not  on 
duty  while  you  are  deadheadino? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  want  to  call  the  particular  attention  of  the 
Board  to  the  reading  of  the  deadhead  article,  Article  No.  9, 
"Engineers  and  firemen  deadheading  on  company  business" — 
it  does  not  say  anything  al)out  going  down  to  take  a  run  that 
his  seniority  gives  him,  or  anything  else.  It  is  company  business, 
pure  and  simple,  that  this  article  deals  with.  (Addressing  the 
witness.)  Regarding  that  hostling  of  six  or  more  engines.  Ar- 
ticle 10,  where  six  or  more  locomotives  are  kei)t,  do  you  mean 
to  convey  the  idea  that  there  would  be  as  much  work  on  one 
engine  coming  back  to  the  shoji  six  times  in  one  day,  as  on  six 
engines  coming  in  off  the  road  witli  a  fire  tliat  had  been  in  them 
sixteen  or  eighteen  hours  t 

Mr.  Cadle:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  chances  are  that  the  one  engine  coming 
back  six  times  would  only  l)e  hostled  once ;  that  is  so  far  as  clean- 
ing the  fire  and  equipping  it  with  supplies  are  concerned? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes,  sir,  that  is  true. 

Mr.  Stone:  Does  this  article  change  in  any  way  the  duties 
of  the  hostler,  or  change  in  any  way  the  rules  that  govern  the 
duties  of  the  hostlers  of  the  individual  roads  ? 

Mr.  Cadle:     I  think  not. 

Mr.  Stone:  Eegarding  this  handyman,  who  handles  en- 
gines around  the  shop  and  so  on,'  would  you  consider  it  a  wise 
idea  for  these  companies  who  have  adopted  the  slogan  of 
"Safety  first"  to  put  a  man  like  that  out  on  the  main  line  in  the 
face  of  some  fast  passenger  train,  handling  a  locomotive  as  a 
hostler? 

Mr.  Cadle:  I  wouhl  not  think  it  would  be  good  judgment 
to  do  that. 

Mr.  Stone :  Speaking  of  that  branch,  where  the  man  might 
get  out  on  the  main  line,  don't  you  know  the  fact  that  many  of 


343 

these  roads  in  the  western  territory  have  branches  nine  liundred 
miles  long — over  50  per  cent  of  their  mileage  in  so-called 
branches  I 

Mr.  Cadle:  Well,  I  don't  know  as  to  the  exact  distance,  but 
there  are  some  of  the  western  roads  that  have  a  great  many 
branches  of  a  great  many  miles,  that  they  class  as  branch  sei'vice. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  regard  to  these  trains  held  out  of  terminals, 
is  it  not  a  fact,  that  this  article  is  identical  in  that  particular — 
that  is,  as  to  a  train  arriving  at  the  main  track  switch,  is  not  the 
same  identical  language  used  in  the  Eastern  award? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Yes,  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  Mdth  these  modern  tonnage  trains  of  over 
a  mile  long,  if  the  first  one  stops  at  a  switch,  it  must  follow  as  a 
natural  consequence  that  the  second  one  is  held  back  on  account 
of  that  first  train,  is  it  not,  and  it  may  not  be  inside  the  yard 
limit  board? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :     But  it  may  be  this  side  of  the  next  station  f 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  if  it  was  not  for  this  first  section  standing 
at  the  switch,  there  would  be  nothing  to  keep  the  other  train 
from  getting  into  the  yard? 

Mr.  Cadle:  He  might  be  up  against  the  same  obstruction 
that  the  first  one  was  that  was  standing  there. 

Mr.  Stone:  Wlien  he  arrived  at  the  switch,  his  terminal 
time  would  begin,  though,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  Gentlemen  of  the  Board,  we  seem  to  have  dealt 
largely  with  this  question  of  preparatory  time  and  terminal 
delay  both  initial  and  final.  I  do  not  think  there  can  be  anything 
plainer  than  the  way  these  two  articles  are  worded.  The  pre- 
paratory time  intends  to  pay  the  man  for  preparing  the  engine 
for  the  trip.  His  initial  terminal  delay  begins  as  soon  as  he 
starts  his  engine  from  the  designated  track;  and  in  passenger 
service  it  ends  at  the  time  he  leaves  the  depot,  and  in  freight 
service  it  ends  when  he  actually  departs  from  the  terminal. 

The  final  terminal  delay  begins  in  freight  service  when  the 
train  has  arrived  at  the  switch  leading  from  the  main  line  into 
the  yard,  and  ends  when  they  are  relieved  from  their  duty,  and 
passenger  terminal  delay  begins  when  they  arrive  at  the  pas- 


344 

senger  depot  and  euds  when  they  are  relieved  from  duty;  and 
we  rather  comphment  ourselves  on  the  plainness  of  the  language 
used.  AVe  do  not  think  it  will  be  capable  of  any  construction 
except  the  right  one. 

Regarding  that  oflficial  weight  on  drivers,  Mr.  Cadle,  is  it 
not  a  fact  that  our  sole  desire  is  to  establish  for  all  time  the 
correct  weight  of  the  locomotive  beyond  question? 

Mr.  Cadle:  That  is  what  the  engineers  and  firemen  have 
been  trying  to  do,  so  that  they  could  know  just  what  rate  of 
pay  a  certain  class  of  engine  would  carry. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  engine  crews  have  been 
deprived  of  money  that  rightfully  belonged  to  them,  because  of 
the  change  of  weights  of  locomotives? 


Mr.  Cadle 
Mr.  Stone 
Mr.  Cadle 


Well,  that  is  hearsay. 
Is  it  not  a  fact  that  we  have  the  proof  of  it? 
Well,  I  understood  one  case  where  the  weight 
was  shown  on  the  side  of  the  cab,  and  it  had  been  changed,  and 
it  was  finally  changed  back.    They  had  a  committee  in  the  office 
the  next  day. 

Mr.  Stone :  They  did  not  get  it  changed  back  the  next  day, 
though,  did  they? 

Mr.  Cadle :     No,  I  do  not  think  so. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  think  it  was  about  eight  months  afterward,  if 
I  recall ;  but  that  is  the  purjiose  of  the  article,  to  establish  the  cor- 
rect weight  of  the  locomotive. 

Mr.  Cadle:  We  want  the  railroad  managers  and  the  rail- 
road officers  to  be  fair.  That  is,  if  an  engine  weighs  215,000 
pounds  on  drivers,  we  want  them  to  say  that  it  is  215,000  pounds, 
not  214,000  in  order  to  keep  from  paying  the  engineer  the  rate 
that  the  engine  should  properly  carry.  That  is  all  we  want.  If 
they  will  do  that,  tliere  cannot  be  any  more  question  about  it. 

Mr.  Stone :  They  referred  to  that  question  of  calling  men 
and  then  annulling  a  train  after  the  men  had  been  called.  Do 
you  know  of  anything  in  these  sixteen  articles  that  refers  to  call- 
ing at  all? 

Mr.  Cadle:     No,  sir,  I  did  not  see  anything. 

Mr.  Stone :  Regarding  that  question  of  overtime  in  the  eight 
hour  day,  where  a  man  is  twelve  hours  on  duty  to  be  paid  four 
hours'  overtime  on  the  eight  hour  day  at  time  and  a  half,  he 
would  be  paid  for  six  hours'  overtime,  while  the  man  on  the 


345 

other  road,  whose  overtime  did  not  begin  until  ten  hours, 
would  only  have  two  hours  at  time  and  a  half,  or  three  hours, 
so  that  the  one  man  would  have  just  double  what  the  other  man 
had ;  is  it  not  a  fact  that  if  both  of  them  were  on  the  road  twelve 
hours,  the  man  on  the  eight  hour  road  would  get  four  hours '  over- 
time as  against  two  hours  for  the  man  on  the  ten  hour  road  now? 

Mr.  Cadle  r    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :     So  he  gets  double  the  hours  of  overtime  now  1 

Mr.  Cadle:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  Just  double.  They  spoke  of  those  inspection 
trains.  I  suppose  they  referred  to  the  annual  inspection  tour 
that  is  made  by  the  officers  of  the  road,  and  sometimes  a  little 
oftener;  but  those  inspection  trips  are  of  rare  occurrence,  are 
they  not? 

Mr.  Cadle :     Well,  to  use  an  extra  crew  is  a  rare  occurrence. 

Mr.  Stone :  But  how  often  do  they  make  an  inspection  trip 
over  the  road? 

Mr.  Cadle :     I  could  not  say  that. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  do  not  see  the  general  officials  out  on  the 
road  making  inspections  every  day  or  every  week,  do  you? 

Mr.  Cadle:  No,  the  only  complaint  comes  from  the  engi- 
neers on  these  passenger  trains,  about  these  heavy  official  cars 
hanging  on  the  hind  end,  and  that  they  cannot  make  time. 

Mr.  Stone :     I  think  that  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman :  Do  you  desire  to  examine  the  witness  fur- 
ther, Mr.  Sheean? 

Mr.  Sheean :     No,  that  is  all. 

The  Chairman :     Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  Stone:  Our  next  witness  will  be  Mr.  W.  S.  Carter, 
President  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and 
Enginemen. 

W.  S.  CARTER  was  called  as  a  witness  and  having  been 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr,  Phillips :    Please  state  your  full  name  ? 
Mr.  Carter :  W.  S.  Carter. 
Mr.  Phillips:     And  your  business? 

Mr.  Carter:  President  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive 
Firemen  and  Enginemen. 


346 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  you  prepared  a  statement  eoucerning 
weight  on  drivers  of  locomotives  as  a  basis  for  computing  pay 
for  engineers  and  firemen  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  have. 

Mr,  Phillips :  I  have  in  my  hand  here  a  book  entitled 
"Weight  on  Drivers  as  a  Basis  of  Locomotive  Engineers'  and 
Firemen's  Rates  of  Wages  and  Locomotives  in  Service  on  Wliich 
Rates  are  Now  Paid  That  are  as  High  or  Higher  Than  Re- 
quested. ' ' 

Do  you  identify  this  as  the  work  you  have  prepared? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  do. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  please,  we  desire  to  introduce 
this  as  Exhibit  Number  3. 

(The  pamphlet,  so  offered  and  identified,  was  received  in 
evidence  and  thereupon  marked  "Emjiloyes'  Exhibit  No.  3, 
December  3,  1914.") 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  was  this  exhibit  prepared  by 
you  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Personally,  do  you  mean! 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes,  or  under  your  direction? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  tliink  I  prepared  it  personally,  probably, 
with  the  exception  that  I  had  others  fill  in  the  rates  of  wages. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Will  you  kindly  explain  the  method  you 
adopted  in  preparing  this  exhibit? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  first  assume  that  firemen  and  engineers 
should  be  compensated  in  proportion  to  their  labor  and  responsi- 
bility. As  this  labor  and  responsibility  increases,  so  should  their 
compensation  increase. 

I  also  assume  that  locomotive  engineers  and  firemen  should 
be  paid  according  to  their  productive  efficiency.  That  is,  as 
their  productive  efficiency  increases,  so  should  their  wages  in- 
crease. 

I  also  assume  that  when  the  labor  cost  of  a  product  de- 
creases, the  employer  should  be  more  able  to  pay  the  wages  that 
are  incidental  to  the  cost  of  that  product. 

It  has  been  upon  that  theory  that  weight  on  drivers  has  been 
adopted  as  a  proper  basis  for  fiixing  the  rates  of  pay  of  loco- 
motive engineers  and  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Has  weight  on  drivers  been  adopted  as  a 
basis  for  fixing  the  rates  of  pay  for  engineers  or  firemen  in  any 
part  of  the  country? 


347 

Mr.  Carter:  While  I  am  not  positive,  I  think  for  man}' 
years  some  railroads  at  least  have  described  locomotives  in  wage 
schedules  by  the  weight  of  the  engine  on  drivers. 

In  the  east  practically  all  of  the  railroads  fix  the  wages  of 
locomotive  firemen  on  the  basis  of  weights  of  engines  on  drivers. 

Some  of  the  roads  in  the  west  have  for  many  years  fixed  the 
rates  of  the  wages  of  both  engineers  and  firemen  on  some  of 
their  engines  at  least  on  the  basis  of  weights  on  drivers. 

In  an  arbitration  award  reached  in  1910,  affecting  the  west- 
ern firemen,  there  was  one  class  of  locomotive  that  was  based 
upon  the  weight  on  drivers.  As  I  remember  it,  it  was  a  com- 
pound engine  weighing  215,000  pounds  or  more  on  drivers.  I 
have  not  referred  to  the  award,  but  that  is  my  recollection  of  it. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  there  other  roads  in  the  Western  ter- 
ritory— 

Mr.  Carter:  I  have  a  list  of  railroads  here  that  was  taken 
from  Exhibit  2,  and  I  think  that  my  reply  was  anticipated  yes- 
terday by  the  witness  Moore.  He  read  the  same  list  of  railroads 
that  I  have  here.  I  want  to  say,  however,  that  as  explained 
by  Mr.  Moore,  this  list  does  not  imply  that  all  of  the  engines  on 
all  of  the  roads  named  have  wages  based  upon  weight  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But  some  of  the  engines  on  all  of  the  roads 
named  are  so  classified! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  On  some  it  may  be  practically  all,  and  on 
others  only  one  class  or  more.  It  would  not  necessarily  be  all 
of  the  engines  on  any  of  the  roads  named? 

Mr.  Carter:  While  I  hate  to  express  an  opinion  just  by 
guess,  and  I  do  not  know,  I  do  not  think  that  any  road  in  the 
west  bases  the  wages  of  all  engineers  and  all  firemen  on  all  loco- 
motives on  weight  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But  I  understand  that  practically  all  of  the 
roads  in  the  east  have  adopted  that  basis  for  firemen  at  least? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Why  have  you  adopted  weight  on  drivers  as 
the  basis  in  this  movement? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  am  a  creature  of  circumstances.  In  the  West- 
ern wage  movement  of  firemen  four  years  ago  our  committee 
representing  the  firemen's  service  preferred  to  maintain  exist- 
ing bases.    On  some  roads  it  is  the  size  of  the  cylinder.    On  other 


348 

roads  it  is  the  total  weight  of  the  engine,  exclusive  of  tender. 
On  other  roads,  as  I  have  said,  it  may  be  weight  on  drivers.  But 
whatever  it  was,  there  was  no  inclination  to  depart  from  the 
practice  then  in  effect. 

But  at  that  time,  or  subsequent  to  the  arbitration,  it  became 
very  evident  that  there  was  only  one  basis  that  was  really 
desired  and  acceptable  to  the  railroads,  and  that  was  weight 
on  drivers ;  and  in  a  discussion  between  our  committee  and  the 
Committee  of  Managers  representing  Western  roads  it  was 
shown  that  a  fireman's  w^ages  should  be  fixed  on  the  tractive 
power  of  a  locomotive,  if  you  were  to  adopt  some  scientific 
method.  Tractive  power  is  the  true  index  to  labor  or  execution 
of  service  that  the  locomotive  can  do. 

For  instance,  a  locomotive  that  has  a  small  tractive  power 
caimot  perform  the  service  that  a  locomotive  with  a  great  tractive 
power  can  perform.  Tractive  power  was  discussed  and  agreed 
upon  during  the  discussion  as  being  the  scientific  basis;  but 
as  stated  by  the  Chairman  of  the  Managers'  Committee,  weight 
on  drivers  is  the  simplest  and  most  accurate  method  of  deter- 
mining the  effective  tractive  power  of  a  locomotive. 

That  is  the  reason,  so  far  as  I  am  concerned,  why  I  was 
converted  to  the  belief  that  weight  on  drivers  was  the  proper 
basis. 

I  think  it  will  be  easily  demonstrated  that  the  Committee 
of  Managers  of  Eastern  roads  took  identically  the  same  position 
when  the  engineers  asked  for  an  increase  in  wages  on  the  bases 
that  are  existing  now  and  did  exist  on  the  Eastern  railroads  as 
applied  to  the  engineers. 

I  think  there  can  be  no  question  but  what  tractive  power 
is  the  scientific  basis,  and  that  weight  on  drivers  is  the  simplest 
and  most  accurate  metliod  of  determining  the  effective  tractive 
power  of  a  locomotive. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  Is  there  any  relation  between  weight  on 
drivers  and  tractive  power! 

Mr.  Carter :  There  is  what  may  be  said  to  be  a  constant  re- 
lation in  all  locomotives. 

Mr.  Phillips :  About  what  is  that  relation,  or  how  would  you 
explain  that  relation? 

Mr.  Carter:  In  the  construction  or  designing  of  locomo- 
tives, it  has  been  the  purpose  of  the  builders  to  add  as  little 


349 

weight  as  possible  to  the  locomotive  beyond  the  weight  necessary 
to  maintain  an  adhesion  of  the  driving  wheels  to  the  rail.  Of 
course,  that  adhesion  varies  greatly  with  the  condition  of  the 
track  or  rail,  and  I  have  heard  it  said  that  the  ratio  has  been 
reduced  since  highly  carbonated  or  hard  steel  rails  and  tires  have 
been  introduced,  because  the  tendency  to  slip  of  a  hard  steel 
tire  on  a  hard  rail  is  greater  than  in  the  old  days  when  we  had 
common  iron  to  travel  on.  "Whether  that  is  true  or  not  I  do  not 
know,  but  most  of  the  writers  or  authorities  indicate  that  the 
proper  relations  of  weight  on  drivers  to  tractive  power — that 
the  ratio  should  be  one  to  four.  I  will  say,  however,  that  other 
writers,  like  Fowler,  for  instance,  say  that  it  should  be  one  to 
five ;  and  one  of  his  arguments  is  that  modern  railroad  practice 
has  introduced  a  much  harder  steel  in  the  rail  and  in  the  tire, 
which  results  in  the  engine  slipping  more  easily  than  it  did 
before. 

Mr.  Phillips :  What  do  you  mean  by  the  ratio  of  one  to  four 
or  one  to  five  on  which  the  authorities  seem  to  differ,  but  seem 
to  be  within  that  range  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  Ordinarily  the  tractive  power  of  a  locomotive 
is  about  one-fourth  of  its  weight  on  drivers.  That  is,  if  you  will 
take  the  weight  on  drivers  of  any  locomotive,  if  it  has  been  con- 
structed after  the  usual  formula,  you  will  find  that  by  dividing 
four  into  the  weight  on  drivers  you  will  have  nearly  the  tractive 
power  of  the  locomotive.  There  are  some  exceptions,  however, 
of  course. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  understand  you  to  say  that  even  the  au- 
thorities disagree? 

Mr.  Carter :     Oh,  yes,  they  disagree. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  I  would  understand  that  if  a  locomo- 
tive weighed  100,000  pounds  on  drivers,  by  dividing  100,000  by 
four  you  would  get  25,000  pounds,  which  would  be  approximately 
the  tractive  power? 

Mr.  Carter :  The  effective  tractive  power.  There  might  be 
much  more  tractive  power  there,  but  you  could  not  develop  it, 
because  the  drivers  would  slip. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  And  under  this  other  authority,  if  you  divide 
it  by  five,  you  get  20,000  pounds  effective  tractive  power? 

Mr.  Carter :  That  is  the  idea.  The  weight  on  drivers  di- 
vided by  five  would  show  less  effective  tractive  power  than  if 


350 

you  (livido  by  four,  and  1  think  Mr.  P\nvl('r  has  said,  in  several 
of  the  artifh's  wiiich  lie  has  written  iii)()n  the  subject,  that  he 
attributes  that  modification  largely  to  the  change  in  the  rail,  to 
the  tendency  of  hard  tires  to  slip  on  hard  steel  rails. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  tliat  is  your  reason  for  saying  that 
there  is  a  constant  relation  between  tractive  power  and  weight 
on  drivers  ? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  that  is  why  you  understood  the  Western 
Managers,  as  expressed  through  the  chairman  of  a  committee,  to 
favor  weight  on  drivers  as  the  basis  for  fixing  rates  of  pay! 

Mr.  Carter:    That  was  my  impression. 

Mr.  Phillips:    Rates  of  pay  for  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter :    That  was  my  impression.    They  urged  it. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Is  there  any  scientific  formula  for  computing 
tractive  power  t 

Mr.  Carter :    There  is,  but  it  is  largely  theoretical. 

Mr.  Phillips:    That  is,  it  is  scientific  and  unscientific? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :    Can  you  give  us  that  f ornmla  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  only  way  of  actually  determining  the 
tractive  power  of  a  locomotive  is  to  measure  the  draw-bar  pull, 
and  many  testing  plants  have  that.  I  think  down  at  Champlain, 
Professor  Goss,  for  the  Illinois  Central,  has  been  making  a 
great  many  experiments.  Sometimes  a  locomotive  will  not  pull 
what  she  is  theoretically  expected  to  pull. 

Mr.  Phillii)s :  I  presume  locomotive  engineers  and  firemen 
studying  for  promotion,  and  possibly  Interstate  Commerce  Com- 
missioners or  others  liave  a  general  formula,  for  computing 
tractive  power? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  rec- 
ognizes it.  I  give  it  on  page  2  of  our  Exhibit  3.  There  is  no  use 
repeating  it.  There  it  is.  I  think  most  locomotive  builders 
adopt  that,  too. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  understood  you  to  say  that  adhesion  had 
something  to  do  with  tractive  power;  and  just  following  your 
formula  on  page  2,  it  is  there  referred  to.  Will  you  explain  just 
what  reference  adhesion  has  to  tractive  power? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  different  w^'iters  describe  it  differently, 
but  I  think  in  one  of  the  most  recent  works  on  the  subject,  it  is 


351 

compared  to  a  man  digging  his  feet  into  the  ground  in  order  to 
pull.  NoAV,  while  the  locomotive  does  not  dig  its  feet  into  the 
ground,  it  does  apparently  grasp  or  clutch  the  surface  of  the 
rail  by  the  law  of  friction,  and  whenever  the  power  developed  by 
the  cylinders  is  greater  than  the  power  of  the  drivers  to  cling  to 
the  rail  through  adhesion,  then  the  locomotive  slips,  and  all  of 
that  surplus  tractive  power  that  might  be  developed  is  wasted. 

For  instance,  you  might  put  a  very  large  cylinder  and  a 
very  high  steam  pressure  on  a  locomotive,  and  have  but  a  slight 
weight  on  drivers,  and  this  is  done  in  locomotives  of  the  Pacific 
type,  the  purpose  being  to  have  a  high  steaming  capacity  of  the 
boiler,  so  that  when  a  train  is  at  high  speed  there  will  be  no  lack 
of  steam  to  maintain  the  high  pressure  in  the  cylinder,  as  high 
as  possible. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is  commonly  understood  among  rail- 
road men  as  slipping  when  you  have  not  sufficient  adhesion  to 
hold  the  engine  to  the  rail? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  I  think  I  have  made  a  comparison  here. 
It  may  be  far  fetched  or  unscientific,  but  it  is  suggestive.  If 
you  are  on  one  of  these  electric  cars  that  have  been  talked  about, 
whenever  the  power  developed  is  a  little  too  great,  there  is  a  fuse 
that  blows  out,  and  there  is  no  development  of  power  at  all. 
Now,  no  matter  how  powerful  your  locomotive  is,  if  the  Avheels 
begin  to  turn  around  and  slip,  you  are  not  developing  any 
power — that  is,  you  are  not  pulling  any  cars. 

Mr.  Phillips:  On  page  3  I  note  you  say  here  in  the  second 
paragraph  following  the  table,  near  the  top  of  the  page : 

"The  recent  installation  of  devices  on  American  locomotives 
for  'superheating'  steam  to  a  very  high  temperature  after  it 
leaves  the  water  space  in  the  boiler  and  before  it  reaches  the 
cylinders,  has  increased  the  mean  effective  pressure  in  the  cyl- 
inders by  avoiding  condensation,  and,  therefore,  has  increased 
the  tractive  power  of  locomotives." 

Can  you  explain  this  to  the  Board,  please? 

Mr.  Carter:  Presuming  that  the  Board  are  interested  in 
matters  of  this  kind  I  wdll  say  that  saturated  steam,  that  is, 
steam  developed  by  the  process  of  boiling  water,  has  a  constant 
tendency  to  condense  again,  to  turn  back  to  water. 

When  steam  of  this  character  is  introduced  to  the  cylinders 


352 

of  an  ordinary  locomotive,  there  is  an  immediate  tendency  for 
the  steam  to  condense,  and  it  does  condense.  Probably  it  is  not 
necessary  for  me  to  explain  why  it  condenses,  but  the  fact  is  it 
does  condense. 

By  the  equipping  of  a  locomotive  with  a  superheating  de- 
vice, that  is,  when  the  superheater  works  and  increases  the 
temperature  of  the  steam  say  about  200  or  more  degrees  above 
the  temperature  of  the  steam  in  the  boiler,  there  is  a  reserve 
heat  in  the  steam  so  that  when  it  reaches  the  cylinder  it  may 
impart  a  portion  of  that  heat  to  the  cj'linder  walls  without  con- 
densation. . 

The  result  is  that  you  maintain  a  much  higher  mean  effect- 
ive pressure  on  the  cylinder.  Now,  if  you  will  note  that  formula 
there,  the  last  in  the  multiplier,  the  last  of  the  multiplication 
there,  shows  that  85  P  indicates  the  pressure  in  the  steam  boiler. 
Mr.  Phillips :     You  mean  at  the  top  of  page  2  ? 
Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  the  top  of  page  2. 

Now,  I  thinlc  you  will  find  that  two  locomotives  of  the  same 
design — I  will  express  it  in  another  way.  Take  two  locomo- 
tives, both  equipped  as  superheaters;  the  one  superheater  not 
doing  its  duty,  and  the  other  superheater  working  to  perfection. 
You  will  find  a  much  higher,  more  effective  pressure  in  the 
cylinder  of  the  locomotive  where  the  superheater  is  doing  what 
is  expected  of  it,  than  in  the  cylinder  of  the  locomotive,  where 
the  superheater  is  not  doing  what  it  should  do.  It  is  the  more 
effective  pressure  on  the  cylinder  that  increases  the  tractive 
power  of  a  locomotive. 

Now,  I  do  not  want  to  be  misunderstood.  In  starting  a 
train  the  superheater  does  not  heat  the  steam  or  add  super- 
heat to  the  steam,  but  if  it  did,  the  probability  is  that  the  drivers 
would  slip  in  the  same  manner,  with  the  result  that  to  get  the 
benefit  or  increased  tractive  power  of  the  superheater,  we  must 
have  the  train  in  motion.  For  two  purposes:  first,  it  requires 
a  certain  amount  of  draft  to  create  intense  heat  in  the  super- 
heater tubes.  Therefore,  it  takes  heavy,  if  not  rapid  exhaust, 
to  draw  this  heat  through  the  tubes,  in  fact,  to  create  the  heat 
in  the  fire  box.  Then,  again,  it  has  been  found  in  practice  that 
a  locomotive  at  a  moderately  high  rate  of  speed,  or  any  rate 
of  speed,  has  not  the  tendency  to  slip  that  it  does  while  standing 


353 

or  moving  very  slowly ;  with  the  result  that  you  can  develop  a 
higher  tractive  power  on  the  same  weight  on  drivers  on  a  loco- 
motive moving  rapidly  than  you  can  on  a  locomotive  standing 
still. 

To  sum  up ;  the  addition  or  installation  of  a  superheater  to 
a  locomotive  greatly  increases  the  productive  efficiency  of  that 
locomotive.  It  makes  it  possible  to  pull  a  great  deal  heavier 
tonnage ;  and  it  does  where  the  railroads  take  advantage  of  this 
increased  tractive  power — they  do  pull  much  heavier  tonnages. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Mr.  Carter,  I  understood  you  to  say  first  that 
there  was  a  close  relation  between  tractive  power  and  weight 
on  drivers,  or  a  constant  relation. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Did  I  just  understand  you  to  say  that  this 
greater  tractive  power  could  be  developed  without  increasing 
the  weight  on  drivers'? 

Mr.  Carter :     If  you  increase  the  speed. 

Mr.  Phillips:     As  the  speed  increases! 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  sir.  I  think  perhaps  any  person  who  has 
ever  ridden  on  a  passenger  train  always  hears  the  engine  slip- 
ping when  they  are  trying  to  start  a  train  moving  slowly.  After 
a  passenger  train  gets  a  high  speed  you  don't  hear  it  slipping 
very  much. 

Mr.  Phillips:  How  about  the  coal  consumption?  Have  the 
superheaters  resulted  in  a  reduction  of  the  amount  of  coal  used? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  coal  per  ton  mile  has  been  greatly  re- 
duced by  the  installation  of  superheaters.  Some  writers  say 
that  theoretically  it  saves  25  per  cent  of  the  coal,  but  on  that 
theory  they  take  into  consideration  the  greater  volume  of  steam 
occasioned  by  its  superheater.  But  other  writers  have  ques- 
tioned it  by  saying  that  the  loss  of  the  steam  making  power  of 
the  locomotive  by  using  a  certain  amount  of  heat  to  superheat 
the  steam  about  offsets  the  gain  in  the  increased  volume  of  the 
steam  in  its  superheater.  Therefore,  most  of  the  writers  do  not 
attribute  much  importance  to  the  increased  volume  of  the  steam, 
because  it  takes  a  certain  amount  of  heat  to  superheat.  There- 
fore, the  one  about  offsets  the  other.  But  when  it  comes  to  the 
avoiding  of  condensation  of  cylinders,  I  think  it  has  been  de- 
termined that  it  will  save  about  16  per  cent  of  the  coal  with  the 
same  tonnage. 


354 

Now,  don't  Diismiderstand  me.  With  tlie  same  train  re- 
sistance, I  tJiink  it  saves  n])out  15  to  1(3  per  cent  of  the  coal. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  you  prepared  to  state  what  the  practice 
is,  whether  the  same  tonnage  is  handled  on  the  railroads  where 
superheater  engines  are  usedf 

Mr.  Carter:  AVhere  railroads  pet  their  superheaters,  where 
they  keep  them  up  at  a  high  state  of  perfection,  and  do  not  over- 
load them,  why  I  think  they  show  considerable  saving  in  coal. 
But  on  roads  where  they  get  out  of  the  superheater  all  that  is 
in  the  engine  (which  they  usually  do  out  of  any  locomotive), 
you  will  find  that  the  coal  consumption  does  not  decrease,  but 
in  many  instances  has  increased,  and  I  think  the  tests  show  it. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Well,  now,  Mr.  Carter,  you  said  a  while  ago 
that  there  was  a  disposition  shown  on  the  part  of  the  Western 
Managers — in  1910,  I  believe  you  said?  What  was  the  time 
stated? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  l)eiieve  it  was — the  discussions  began,  if 
I  remember  right,  in  December,  1910,  and  they  arose  over  the 
api^lication  of  the  arbitration  award,  as  to  what  the  award 
meant.  The  disi)ute  resulted  in  the  Board  of  Arbitration  being 
again  convened  in  November  of  1910,  and  certain  interpretations 
made  of  the  award  by  the  Board.  Then,  when  we  tried  to  a])ply 
the  inter})retation  of  the  award,  other  misunderstandings  arose, 
and  it  was  at  that  time  that  the  managers  insisted  that  the  onlv 
proper  basis  of  wages  of  a  locomotive  fireman  was  the  weight  on 
drivers,  and  I  quote  from  a  letter  here,  received  from  Mr.  W.  C. 
Nixon,  who  was  the  Chairman  of  the  Western  Managers'  Com- 
mittee. I  only  (juote  a  portion  of  the  letter,  but  T  have  the  entire 
letter,  if  it  is  desired.     He  says — 

Mr.  Phillips:     From  what  part  are  you  reading? 

Mr.  Carter :     This  is  about  the  center  of  page  4.    He  says : 

"  In  accordance  with  this  i)]an,  the  Managers'  Committee 
have  prepared  and  submit  herewith  for  your  consideration  a 
draft  of  a  memorandum  of  agreement  embodying  their  views 
of  a  reasonable  settlement  of  the  differences  between  us. 

"  These  differences  are  two  in  number,  viz:  First,  the 
establishment  of  a  fair  and  sound  method  of  determining  the 
basis  on  which  the  pay  of  firemen  should  be  differentiated  as 
between  various  classes  of  engines.  Second,  the  determination 
of  a  fair  and  reasonable  method  of  computing  overtime. 


355 

"  The  proposition  of  the  Managers'  Committee  as  to  the 
first  of  these  two  problems  is  that  tractive  i)ower  is  the  only 
sound  method  for  determining  firemen's  rates,  and  that  weights 
on  drivers  is  the  simplest  and  best  method  of  determining 
tractive  power." 

That  is  from  the  letter  of  Mr.  Nixon,  Chairman  of  the 
Committee  of  Managers  of  Western  Kailroads,  that  negotiated 
the  last  wage  settlement  for  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  you  understand  from  that  lette'r  that 
while  tractive  power  was  the  most  scientific,  it  was  the  belief 
of  the  Managers,  as  expressed  by  Mr.  Nixon,  that  weight  on 
drivers  was  the  simplest  and  most  reliable  method? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :    Have  you  any  reason  for  that  understanding! 

Mr.  Carter:     My  personal  reasons,  you  mean? 

Mr.  Phillips :  Well,  did  you  have  conferences  or  anything 
to  add  to  that  belief? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  I  think  this  letter  was  really  the  culmi- 
nation of  the  conferences  after  the  matter  had  been  discussed; 
that  this  letter  was  confirmatory  of  the  opinion  of  the  managers 
as  expressed  orally. 

But  I  think  there  was  brought  out  in  the  discussion  that  the ' 
reason  that  tractive  power  should  not  be  used  and  that  weight 
on  drivers  should  be  used,  was  that  it  is  very  difficult  to  de- 
termine the  actual  tractive  power  of  a  locomotive,  although 
there  is  a  very  constant  relation  between  tractive  power  and 
weight  on  drivers. 

It  was  pointed  out  that  a  locomotive  may  have  a  certain 
tractive  power  today,  and  may  have  another  tractive  power  to- 
morrow, simply  by  changing  the  pressure  of  the  spring  on  the 
safety  valve.  That  is,  if  you  would — to  use  a  railroad  expres- 
sion— screw  down  the  pot,  so  that  the  maximum  pressure  would 
be  higher,  you  would  increase  the  apparent  tractive  power  of 
the  locomotive,  although  it  may  not  develop  that  tractive  power, 
because  of  the  slipping  of  the  drivers,  but  the  tractive  power 
theoretically,  under  this  formula  on  page  2,  would  be  that. 

Again,  it  was  shown  that  the  tractive  power  of  a  locomotive 
would  change  with  the  temperature  of  the  water.  For  instance, 
if  the  thermometer,  say,  was  20  degrees  below  zero,  the  conden- 


356 

sation  of  tlio  steam  in  the  cylinder  was  so  rapid  tliat  the  mean 
efTective  pressure  woukl  not  be  85  per  cent  of  the  boiler  pressure, 
hut  verv  much  less  than  that,  with  the  result  that  the  tractive 
j)ower  for  that  ]ieriod  of  time  would  be  decreased,  but  that  the 
weight  on  drivers  would  not  be  changed. 

Now,  it  was  jiointed  out  that  the  weight  on  drivers  could  be 
changed,  but  it  was  recognized  that  a  certain  weight  would  rest 
ujton  the  drivers,  and  if  because  of  a  tendency  of  one  of  the 
journals  to  heat  that  same  weight  was  shifted  over  to  a  trailing 
truck,  it  was  only  a  temporary  expedient  and  would  not  be  per- 
manent. 

Mr.  Phillips :  1  believe  you  stated,  Mr.  Carter,  that  in  some 
Eastern  movement  (I  undertake  to  say  the  Engineers),  the  east- 
ern g(>neral  managers  had  taken  a  similar  position! 

Mr.  Carter:  They  took  that  position  during  the  arbitra- 
tion i)roceedings,  and  the  Managers'  Committee  apparently  de- 
termined that  they  would  attempt  to  discredit  all  other  bases  of 
wages  of  engineers. 

I  quote  here  from  Mr.  Worthington,  who  was  a  prominent 
member  of  the  Eastern  Managers'  Committee  and  selected  by 
that  conmiittee  as  their  official  spokesman — I  quote  the  language 
of  the  counsel  for  the  railroads : 

"Mr.  Worthington  will  be  able  to  give  you  the  position  of 
the  railroads  from  our  operating  standpoint." 

Mr.  AVorthington  ai)peared  as  a  witness  for  the  railroads 
against  the  contentions  of  the  engineers  for  a  considerable 
period  of  time.  I  have  reproduced  some  of  his  testimony  here, 
but  I  shall  only  read  a  few  lines  therefrom,  to  cover  this  par- 
ticular i)oint.    Mr.  Worthington  says,  on  page  5: 

"I  (h)  not  believe  the  cylinder  traction  is  a  proper  dividing 
line  to  differentiate  in  the  wages  of  the  enginemen." 

Again  he  says  (the  second  paragraph  below)  : 

**The  co-efficient  of  adhesion  of  a  locomotive  is  fLxed  bv  its 
driver  weight,  and  is  controlled  by  natural  law.  What  I  liiean 
by  that  is,  if  you  were  to  take  twenty  locomotives  of  different 
sizes  and  test  every  one  of  them  out  here,  to  arrive  at  the  co- 
efficient of  adhesion,  that  is  the  slipping  point,  you  would  find 
under  the  conditions  which  exist  here  now,  every  one  of  them 
would  slip  at  exactly  the  same  percentage  of  the  driver  weight. 
Now,  that  being  true,  the  limited  pulling  capacitv  of  that  loco- 


357 

motive  is  a  point  at  which  it  slips,  and  that  law  would  be  ac- 
curate. ' ' 

Now,  I  quote  from  page  6,  in  the  second  paragraph: 
*'Now,  if  the  drivers'  weight  was  the  measure,  and  this  is 
the  limiting  point  at  which  the  engine  will  slip — if  that  was  used 
as  a  measure,  we  would  not  have  any  such  controversy;  and 
personally,  I  think  the  driver  weight  would  be  a  far  better  unit 
to  make  or  to  differentiate,  in  the  wages  of  enginemen. ' ' 

At  the  foot  of  that  page,  Mr.  Worthington  says: 

**The  truth  is  I  would  not  know  much  about  this  problem 
myself,  if  I  had  not  spent  four  years  studying  it.  If  I  had  not 
gone  up  through  the  line  of  railroad  service,  and  had  not  had 
charge  of  the  tonnage  rating  of  locomotive,  I  might  never  have 
discovered  that  myself.  But  for  the  reason  I  state,  I  believe 
that  driver  weight  is  a  better  measure." 

Another  reason  advanced  for  adopting  drivers'  weights, 
was  this  from  Mr.  Worthington  on  the  same  page : 

''I  do  not  believe  we  can  get  away  from  the  theory  that  the 
engineer  is  entitled  to  his  share  of  the  increased  productivity 
of  his  labor.  I  do  not  believe  we  can  get  away  from  that  theory. 
I  think  he  is  entitled  to  his  full  share,  myself. ' ' 

Mr.  PhilliiDs:  You  understand  from  that  then,  that  Mr. 
Nixon,  speaking — and  from  the  previous  letter  from  which  you 
read — that  Mr.  Nixon,  speaking  for  the  western  railroads,  rep- 
resented the  wishes  and  opinions  of  the  managers  of  the  west- 
ern railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  so  understand  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  that  Mr.  Worthingion  voiced  the  senti- 
ment of  the  western  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  so  understood  it  until  we  attempted  to 
comply  with  their  contentions,  when  they  immediately  reversed 
their  actions  and  fought  our  contentions  in  the  east,  and  said 
that  the  weight  on  drivers  was  not  the  proper  basis.  I  think 
the  record  will  show  that  when  the  engineers  asked  for  wages 
based  on  weight  on  drivers,  the  railroads  advocated — I  beg  your 
pardon,  let  me  repeat:  I  think  that  when  the  engineers  advo- 
cated the  size  of  the  cylinder  as  the  basis  of  engineers'  wages, 
the  railroads  said  that  the  weight  on  drivers  was  a  proper 
weight.    And  then,  when  the  firemen  came  along  and  acquiesced 


358 

in  their  contention  and  offered  weiglit  on  drivers  as  the  proper 
basis,  they  said  that  was  not  the  correct  basis. 

But,  I  think  the  record  will  show  that  all  the  railroads 
contend  that  weight  on  drivers  is  the  proper  basis. 

The  Chairman:  Well,  are  the  wages  of  firemen  graduated 
according  to  the  weight  of  the  engine? 

Mr.  Carter:     In  the  east,  altogether. 

The  Chairman:     In  the  east? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman:     What  is  the  basis  in  the  West? 

Mr.  Carter:  Practically  the  same  thing,  except  it  is  de- 
scribed differenth'.  For  instance,  the  scale  of  wages  for  firemen 
and  engineers  in  the  West  mav  show  a  low  rate  on  a  class  A 
engine,  a  little  higher  rate  on  a  class  B  engine,  and  a  still  higher 
rate  on  a  class  C  engine,  etc.  While  they  are  described  as  class 
A,  B  and  C,  you  will  find  that  the  tractive  power  of  those  loco- 
motives, or  the  weight  on  drivers  of  those  locomotives  is  gradu- 
ated almost  as  the  wages  are. 

The  Chairman:  Therefore,  the  greater  the  weight  of  the 
engine  the  greater  the  pay  the  fireman  receives  for  his  services? 
Is  that  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman :  And  is  that  based  on  the  theory  that  he  is 
required  to  perform  greater  service  on  an  engine  of  greater 
weight  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Increased  labor,  increased  responsibility,  in- 
creased jiroductive  efficiency. 

The  Chairman:  That  is  what  I  wanted  to  get  at.  That 
is  all. 

Mr.  Phillii)s :  And  even  though  the  Eastern  General  Man- 
agers reversed  their  jiosition  and  changed  their  tactics,  the 
weight  on  drivers  basis  was  adoi)ted  for  practically  all  the  rail- 
roads, for  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter :  It  was  unanimously  adopted  by  the  Board  of 
Arbitration,  one  of  whom  was  the '  representative  of  the  rail- 
roads. 

Mr.  Phillips:  What  is  the  table  on  page  7,  Mr.  Carter; 
beginning  on  page  7  and  continuing  on  page  8? 

Mr.  Carter:  Preliminary  to  a  direct  answer,  I  hope  the 
Board  will  pardon  me  if  I  have  attempted  to  include  in  this 


359 

exhibit  something  for  the  purpose  of  familiarizing  those  of 
the  Board,  who  are  not  practical  locomotive  men,  with  the  pe- 
culiarities of  locomotives  of  different  types.  It  is  not  only  the 
wages  of  locomotive  engineers  and  firemen  on  the  different 
railroads  that  show  a  grave  lack  of  standardization,  but  the 
engines  are  described  differently.  On  one  road  an  engine  may 
be  called  an  Atlantic  type,  on  another  road  the  same  engine  may 
be  called  a  class  G,  or  class  X ;  on  another  road  it  may  be  classed 
as  an  engine  weighing  between  1000,000  and  140,000  pounds  on 
drivers;  on  another  road  it  may  be  classed  as  an  engine  of  300 
per  cent;  on  another  road  it  may  be  classed  as  a  4-6-2,  and 
yet  with  all  those  different  classifications  it  may  be  identically 
the  same  locomotive.  To  help  the  mechanical  officials  of  the  rail- 
roads out  of  this  dilemma,  a  very  prominent  mechanical  official, 
by  the  name  of  Mr.  Whyte,  I  think  at  that  time  he  was  the  me- 
chanical engineer  of  the  New  York  Central  Lines — I  may  be 
mistaken,  but  that  is  as  I  remember  it — he  devised  what  is 
known  as  Wh5^te's  System  of  classifying  all  locomotives  and 
standardizing,  I  might  say,  all  classifications. 

On  pages  7  and  8  in  the  first  column  is  Mr.  Whyte 's  standard 
classification  of  locomotives.  In  the  second  column  appears  a 
graphic  presentation  of  the  arrangement  of  the  driving  wheels 
and  the  truck  wheels  and  the  pilot.  For  instance,  two  large 
circles  indicate  two  pairs  of  drivers.  Five  large  circles,  in  the 
fourth  line,  indicate  five  pairs  of  drivers,  or  ten  drivers. 

Now,  the  fifth  one,  the  small  hyphen  or  dash  indicates  the 
pilot  or  front  end  of  the  engine,  and  the  two  large  circles  indicate 
two  pairs  of  driving  wheels,  and  the  tiny  circle  to  the  right,  indi- 
cates a  two-wheel  truck  following  the  drivers. 

The  third  column  is  the  popular  name.  Some  of  these  loco- 
motives have  so  many  popular  names  that  we  could  not  get  them 
in  there.  Now,  to  explain  what  I  mean  by  so  many  po])ular 
names,  let  us  look  for  a.  4-4-0.  The  4-4-0  appears  a  little  above 
the  center  on  page  8,  and  I  give  the  popular  name  as  **8-wheel." 
Some  writers  never  refer  to  it  as  the  8- Wheel,  they  refer  to  it  as 
'* Standard."  I  think  in  Europe,  in  English  speaking  countries 
in  Europe,  they  refer  to  it  as  the  ''American."  So  there  are 
many  popular  names  for  the  same  engine,  but  there  is  only  one 
Whyte 's  classification,  and  that  is  this  standard,  as  you  see  in 
the  first  column. 


-j-fc-h^  -  *  *  /^*  ^«  wwT'  g  M  ^  ^  if^-p  ■''.'»  'i^^^n^ 


360 

The  purpose  of  that  table  was  that  during  these  proceed- 
ings, if  reference  is  made  to  consolidation  engines  or  "Consols," 
as  they  are  called  for  short,  the  members  of  the  Board  will  know 
in  advance  the  peculiarities  of  that  engine. 

Now,  to  add  information  to  this  table,  I  have  inserted  in  the 
back  of  this  book  illustrations  of  these  locomotives.  I  have  not 
shown  all  of  them.  We  will  take  the  second  locomotive  shown  on 
page  7,  the  6- Wheel  Switcher.  A  photograph  of  that  engine  is 
sho^\^l  on  page  38.  That  is  an  0-6-0,  or  a  6-AVheel  Switcher,  as  it 
appears.  You  will  note  that  in  these  illustrations  the  tenders 
have  been  omitted.  The  purpose  of  that  was  to  make  the  pictures 
of  the  locomotives  as  large  as  practicable,  within  the  limited 
space  on  the  page.  If  the  tender  had  been  left  in  the  picture  with 
the  locomotive,  it  would  have  decreased  the  size  of  the  picture 
by  about  one-half.  The  tender,  with  the  exception  of  one  loco- 
motive, has  no  real  significance  as  to  the  power  of  the  locomotive. 
If  you  will  turn  to  page  37,  however,  you  will  see  one  engine 
where  the  tender  is  a  locomotive  within  itself,  called  the  ''Trip- 
lex,"— that  is  the  latest  creation. 

Mr.  Phillips:  What  is  the  popular  name  for  that  engine, 
Mr.  Carter! 

Mr.  Carter:  ''Centipede."  At  least,  that  is  the  name  that 
the  newspaper  men  have  used  in  describing  the  locomotive. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  in  this  Whyte's  Table,  while  you 
have  explained  it  quite  clearly,  taking  it  in  connection  with  the 
pictures  over  here  which  you  have  just  explained,  or  the  pho- 
tographs I  presume  you  would  call  them,  a  fairly  clear  idea  of 
the  principle  and  design  of  any  locomotive  may  be  gained? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Does  the  relative  size  of  the  locomotives  ap- 
pearing on  the  pages  here,  indicate  the  actual  differences  in  the 
sizes  of  the  engines? 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  at  all.  At  the  head  of  page  30  appears 
the  4-4-0,  the  8-^\Tieel  Engine. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  that  the  Standard  to  which  you  referred 
a  while  ago? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  sir,  or  the  ' '  American ' '  as  you  like  to  call 
it.  The  photograph  of  that  locomotive,  as  it  appears  here,  is 
much  larger  than  the  consolidation  engine  that  appears  at  the 
head  of  page  32,  while  the  consolidation  engine,  the  illustration 


361 

of  which  is  shown  on  page  32,  may  be  twice  or  three  times  as 
big  an  engine  as  the  8-Wheel  engine  shown  on  page  30. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Will  you  now  turn  to  page  10,  please.  I 
note  here  some  diagrams  of  descriptive  matter.  Have  these  dia- 
grams any  relation  to  the  tables  or  pictures  of  locomotives  pro- 
duced herein? 

Mr.  Carter:  Without  assuming  that  the  Board  needed  a 
graphic  presentation  of  the  case,  the  purpose  of  these  diagrams 
is  to  graphically  demonstrate  that  with  the  increased  tractive 
power  and  weight  on  drivers  of  a  locomotive,  so  the  pulling 
power  of  the  locomotive  develops.  I  might  say  that  when  these 
drawings  were  made,  they  were  made  accurately  to  a  scale  of 
one-tenth  of  an  inch  to  the  foot,  as  applied  to  the  wheels  of  the 
engine,  and  to  a  scale  of  one-tenth  of  an  inch  to  the  1200  pounds 
tractive  power,  as  applied  to  the  rectangles  indicating  tractive 
power ;  but  in  reducing  the  drawings  to  this  size,  which  was  sup- 
posed to  be  one-half,  there  is  a  slight  variation  from  the  true 
scale.  The  drawings  as  shown  here  are  presumed  to  be  on  a 
scale  of  one-twentieth  of  an  inch  to  a  foot  in  locomotive  dimen- 
sions, and  one-twentieth  of  an  inch  to  the  1200  pounds  tractive 
power,  expressed  in  the  black  rectangles.  In  connection  with  the 
diagrams,  there  is  also  shown  the  rates  of  wages  requested  in 
both  passenger  and  freight  service,  and  the  rates  of  wages  naw 
paid,  or  rather  the  highest  rates  of  wages  now  paid  on  these,  not 
the  same  locomotives,  but  on  locomotives  falling  within  the 
weights  described  in  the  proposition. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  the  descriptive  matter  here,  Mr.  Carter, 
on  page  10,  and  the  first  line  of  the  printed  matter  beneath  the 
diagram,  you  say,  "Wheel  base  (excluding  tender)  23  feet, 
7  inches."  What  do  you  mean  by  the  wheel  base  of  the  loco- 
motive? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  wheel  base  is  the  distance  between  the 
exact  point  on  the  rail  where  the  center  of  the  front  wheel  and 
the  center  of  the  back  wheel  rest.  It  is  simpler  to  say  the 
distance  between  the  centers  of  the  journals  of  the  front  and 
back  wheels.  It  does  not  mean  the  distance  from  the  outside  of 
the  front  wheel  to  the  outside  of  the  back  wheel,  it  means  the 
distance  from  the  center  of  the  front  wheel  upon  which  the 
locomotive  rests,  to  the  center  of  the  back  wheel  upon  which  the 
locomotive  rests. 


%T»- 


r.%  i  .■       -       iM  f.  ■^^^^^ 


362 

Mr.  Pliillii)s:  In  those  diaji^ianis  I  note  you  have  given 
weight  on  drivers,  tractive  power,  wlieel  base  and  heating  sur- 
face. Without  going  into  detail,  necessarily,  do  those  various 
factors  increase  as  the  engine  increases  in  sizef 

Mr.  Carter:  With  some  exceptions,  there  is  a  general  in- 
crease. As  stated,  engines  constructed  for  specific  purposes 
may  have  a  much  larger  boiler  in  proportion  to  weight  on 
drivers  than  other  locomotives.  Where  high  speeds  require 
great  steam  capacity,  they  have  placed  huge  boilers  on  wheels 
only  a  part  of  which  wheels  are  drivers.  For  instance,  in  the 
Prairie  type  of  engine  4-6-2,  they  have  two  pair,  or  four  small 
trucks,  in  front  to  help  bear  the  weight  of  that  boiler.  Now, 
at  the  back  they  have  one  pair  of  wheels  to  help  support  the 
back  weight.  Another  reason  for  that  small  pair  of  wheels 
back  there  is  to  make  it  possible  to  give  the  fireman  plenty  of 
room  to  throw  the  coal  in. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  if  I  understand  you  cor- 
rectly, you  state  that  the  black  square  here — it  is  not  a  square 
as  you  go  on,  but  a  rectangle,  as  you  call  it — indicates  the  trac- 
tive i)Ower  of  the  engine,  and  that  the  tractive  power  of  each 
engine,  shown  and  explained  in  these  diagrams,  would  be  indi- 
cated by  the  black  rectangles,  as  we  turn  these  pages.  While 
you  were  testifying,  I  noted  on  the  previous  page,  page  9,  that 
you  say,  in  the  descriptive  matter,  the  third  paragi'aph  from 
the  bottom,  a  short  paragraph: 

"While  not  so  intended,  these  rectangles  representing  rela- 
tive tractive  power,  also  approximately  represent  the  compara- 
tive 'tonnage'  capacity  of  each  locomotive." 

Would  we  understand  then,  as  we  turn  the  pages,  that  the 
tonnage  capacity  would  increase  as  the  size  of  the  rectangle 
increases,  or  the  length  of  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     Approximately  so. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  I  think  you  explained  to  us  what  a  Standard 
engine  was,  and  called  attention  to  the  picture  or  the  jiictures, 
with  the  table  on  ]iages  7  and  8,  that  is  the  Whyte  Table,  and  the 
diagrams,  they  are  intended  to  typify  and  clearly  explain  the 
various  types  of  locomotives  in  use,  and  you  have  gone  further 
in  your  diagrams  and  given  some  information  regarding  rates; 
not  onlv  the  dimensions  which  I  have  before  referred  to,  but 


363 

rates  re(iuested  and  rates  paid  on  the  tyi)es  of  engines  described. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  it  perhaps  would  be  fair  to  myself  and 
fair  to  the  Board  to  explain  that  those  rates  are  selected  from 
the  schedules,  the  very  highest  rates  that  we  find.  In  some  in- 
stances they  include  the  differential  for  mountain  rates.  The 
purpose  was  to  show  the  highest  rates  that  appear  for  locomo- 
tives of  that  weight  on  drivers  in  any  of  the  schedules.  T  do 
not  want  it  to  appear  tliat  I  am  communicating  the  information 
that  these  high  rates  do  not  include  also,  in  some  instances,  the 
diiferential  because  of  mountain  grades.  For  instance,  those  lo- 
comotives in  service  on  the  Canadian  Pacific  Railroad,  west,  i)ar- 
ticularly  those ;  I  think  perhaps  all  of  those  rates  herein  (pioted 
were  fixed  because  of  the  mountain  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Following  the  tabulation  on  page  10,  show- 
ing certain  dimensions,  there  is  another  tabulation  showing  rate 
requested  for  engineer  and  fireman  on  that  class  of  engine,  that 
is,  the  4-4-0.    I  believe  you  would  call  it  the  Standard  8- Wheel? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  request  is  shown  there,  that  is  the  rate 
appearing  in  the  proposition  submitted  to  arbitration! 

Mr.  Carter :  That  is  the  rate  requested  for  the  class  of  en- 
gines indicated  in  the  last  line,  where  it  says,  "Locomotives 
weighing  less  than  80,000  pounds  on  drivers." 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  this  particular  locomotive,  weighing 
77,000  pounds  on  drivers,  would  come  within  the  class  of  rates 
requested  on  engines  weighing  less  than  80,000  pounds  on  driv- 
ers? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  you  say  here,  "While  locomotives  of 
this  type  and  similar  size  are  yet  in  service  on  many  railroads, 
for  purpose  of  illustration,  this  particular  locomotive  is  now  in 
the  service  of  the  Illinois  Central  Railroad,  known  there  as  No. 
1940."  You  don't  wish  to  give  the  impression  that  the  rate  you 
have  quoted,  following  there,  is  in  effect  on  the  Illinois  Central 
Railroad? 

Mr.  Carter:  No;  the  purpose  in  citing  the  particular  loco- 
motive, was  to  make  it  possible  for  anyone  to  check  u)i  the  dimen- 
sions I  give  and  to  verify  their  accuracy. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  where  a  locomotive  may  be  taken  from 
one  railroad  and  a  picture  made,  for  the  purpose  used  here,  the 


»^*.»-V7rz  m 


f  M  .  .TTrj>  .  -      I*  *  ».  ■  ^^^^iP 


364 

rates  appearing  may  be  ai)plical)le  to  the  same  type  of  locomo- 
tive on  the  different  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:     The  rate  requested? 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  did  not  mean  the  rate  requested.  You  quote 
here  the  highest  rate  paid.  Assuming  you  take  an  engine  from 
the  Illinois  Central  Railroad  for  the  purpose  of  exemplification 
or  drawing  pictures,  or  giving  dimensions,  this  highest  rate  paid 
may  not  necessarily  apply  to  that  engine  on  the  Illinois  Central 
Railroad? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not  think  in  any  instance  the  highest 
rate  paid  applies  to  the  particular  engine  illustrated. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is  the  point  I  wished  to  understand. 
But  it  does  apply  to  that  type  of  engine  on  one  or  more  railroads 
parties  to  this  movement? 

Mr.  Carter:  Perhaps  I  should  explain  that  these  engines 
selected  for  these  diagrams  are  from  blueprints  that  I  happened 
to  have  in  my  possession,  and  there  was  no  special  pur])ose  in 
selecting  that  8-wheel  locomotive  from  the  Illinois  Central  Rail- 
road, except  that  I  happened  to  have  blueprints  for  an  8-wheel 
engine  on  the  Illinois  Central  Railroad,  and  the  specifications 
are  taken  from  those  blueprints.  As  I  said,  the  only  purpose  in 
naming  the  locomotives  in  these  diagrams  is  to  make  it  possible 
for  anyone  so  disposed  to  check  the  accuracy  of  the  statements 
made  in  this  exhibit. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Should  anyone  desire  to  check  these  rates  as 
to  the  roads  on  which  they  may  be  found,  have  you  prepared  any 
tables  for  reference,  and  included  them  in  this  exhibit! 

Mr.  Carter:  We  have  checked  and  have  prepared  a  great 
number  of  rates,  many  of  which  will  be  presented,  and  it  would 
be  impossible  for  me  to  remember  exactly  to  what  locomotive 
and  what  point  a  rate  is  applicable ;  but  anticipating  that  there 
may  be  a  question  as  to  the  accuracy  of  rates  in  this  statement, 
or  any  other  statement  that  may  be  presented,  we  have  available 
all  of  the  supporting  data  and  will  be  pleased  to  join  with  repre- 
sentatives of  the  railroads  in  verifying  the  accuracy  of  these 
rates.  I  want  to  say,  however,  that  some  of  the  rates  that  ap- 
pear in  here,  are  not  accurate ;  that  is,  they  are  almost  not  ac- 
curate. 

Mr.  Phillips:    Almost  not  accurate? 

Mr.  Carter :    By  turning  to  page  17  you  will  note  a  tabular 


f  365 

statement,  extending  over  to  and  including  page  28.  All  rates 
quoted  in  the  diagrams  are  also  shown  in  this  table,  with  the 
exception  of  a  rate  of  $3.90  for  firemen  in  passenger  service,  and 
of  $4.00  for  firemen  in  freight  service,  appearing  first  in  diagram 
4.  If  you  will  turn  to  the  tabular  matter,  under  diagram  4 —  ..  ^ 
Mr.  Phillips:    What  page  is  that!  -w^::'   ^.  ^.i 

Mr.  Carter :  The  Southern  Pacific,  Pacific  System.  Page 
25.  You  will  find  the  last  rate  for  the  Southern  Pacific  Company, 
opposite  Sacramento  Division,  shows  $3.90  for  firemen  in  pas- 
senger service  and  $4  for  firemen  in  freight  service,  and  the 
reference  Note  No.  1  at  the  bottom  of  the  table  explains  where 
that  rate  is  paid  and  under  what  conditions.  Now,  in  the  dia- 
grams we  repeat  that  same  rate;  in  diagrams  5  and  6,  and  I 
think  in  7 ;  but  have  failed  to  insert  that  rate  in  these  tabular 
statements.  It  is  not  an  error,  it  is  simply  an  omission.  I 
mean  to  say  that  the  rates  should  have  been  written  in  there. 

I  would  like  to  call  attention  to  some  other  matters  that  I 
do  not  think  should  go  unchallenged,  even  if  I  have  to  challenge 
them  myself.  I  have  stated  that  the  rates  herein  were  taken 
from  printed  schedules.  Certain  rates  herein,  taken  from  the 
Southern  Pacific,  Sunset  Lines,  are  not  taken  from  schedules,  be- 
cause on  that  road  they  have  a  trip  basis,  and,  in  order  that  we 
might  thoroughly  understand  what  the  rates  were,  the  repre- 
sentatives of  the  engineers  and  firemen  on  that  road  carefully 
prepared  a  statement  of  the  trip  rates,  reduced  to  a  mileage 
basis,  and  the  rates  shown  in  this  statement  for  the  Southern 
Pacific,  Sunset  Lines, — or  rather,  that  is  hardly  correct, — what 
is  knowTi  as  the  Southern  Pacific,  Atlantic  System,  under  the 
old  name,  which  does  not  include  all  of  the  roads  now  known  as 
the  Southern  Pacific,  Sunset  Lines,  are  based  upon  this  specially 
prepared  table.  I  believe  they  are  accurate,  but  they  are  not 
from  a  schedule. 

I  would  like  to  call  attention  to  page  20.  Near  the  bottom 
of  the  table  for  the  St.  Louis  Southwestern,  certain  rates 
are  shown  for  a  2-6-0  locomotive,  a  *' Mogul."  The  rate 
quoted  for  this  2-6-0  engine  is  an  error.  There  is  no  "Mogul" 
of  this  weight  bearing  a  rate  of  $5.20,  but  understand  the  other 
engines  shoAVTi  there  of  approximately  the  same  weight,  pay  the 
rates  quoted.  The  error  has  been  in  showing  that  these  rates 
were  paid  on  4-4-0  engines,  2-6-0  engines,  and  4-4-2  engines.    Ac- 


O*'.*'  .  t  r*-*-»-'  'vm-r  _    .    -      ■   ■  ■■  ^^^^"  WW       t  a  I  ,%  M 


366 

curatoly  it  sliould  hv  (|uotocl  as  being  i)ai(l  only  on  the  4-4-0  en- 
gines and  the  4-4-2  engines;  but  understand  all  of  these  engines 
would  fall  within  tlie  group,  under  our  proposition,  by  weights 
on  drivers.    1  woukl  like  to  call  attention  to — 

Mr.  Burgess:  Please  explain,  won't  you,  Mr.  Carter,  why 
the  firemen's  rate  isn't  shown  opposite  the  engineers'? 

Mr.  Carter:  Unfortunately,  sometimes  the  firemen  are  not 
getting  more  than  we  request,  and  the  engineers  are.  We  quote 
the  rates  for  the  engineers  that  are  higher  than  we  have  re- 
quested, and  because  the  firemen  have  not  been  quite  so  success- 
ful, we  have  no  rates  to  quote  for  them;  they  liave  no  rates 
higher  than  we  request. 

Mr.  Phillips :  In  other  words,  Mr.  Carter,  you  have  quoted 
in  these  tables,  beginning  on  page  17,  or  wdierever  they  begin, 
— I  believe  on  page  17, — and  continuing  for  quite  a  number  of 
pages,  only  the  rates  that  are  as  high  or  higher  than  the  rates 
now  requested? 

Yes,  sir.    Wliat  page  were  you  referring  to  ? 
Page  20. 
And  there  being  no  rate  for  that  particular 

What  railroad  ? 
There  are  many  of  them  down  there  in  the 

Well,  select  a  road? 
Well,  we  will  take  the  Missouri,  Oklahoma 
&  Gulf.     In  the  engineers'  column  there  is  a  rate  shown,  but 
there  is  no  rate  showni  for  the  firemen. 

Mr.  Carter:  On  the  Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf,  there  is 
no  rate  paid  to  engineers  in  passenger  service  that  is  as  high  or 
higher  than  that  requested  in  this  proposition.  There  is  no  rate 
paid  to  firemen  in  passenger  service  that  is  as  high  or  higher 
than  requested,  but  to  engineers  in  freight  service  there  is  a  $5.20 
rate  paid  on  a  2-6-0  and  4-6-0  locomotive,  which  is  just  the  same 
as  the  request  in  our  proposition. 

^Ir.  Burgess :  Then  we  are  to  understand  that  the  absence 
of  any  rate  indicates  that  the  present  rate  is  lower  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  absence  of  any  rate  indicates  that  there 
is  no  rate  for  that  service  on  that  road  that  is  as  high  or  higher 
than  requested. 


Mr. 

Carter : 

Mr. 

Burgess 

Mr. 

Phillips 

engine- 

- 

Mr. 

Carter : 

Mr. 

Burgess 

last  column. 

Mr. 

Carter : 

Mr. 

Burgess 

367 

Mr.  Phillips:  At  the  top  of  the  eoluiims  there,  i  read, 
''Rate  requested."  Then,  in  a  parallel  line,  across  the  page,  or 
in  a  continuous  line  across  the  page,  without  giving  tlie  name  of 
the  railroad,  you  give  the  rates  for  passenger  engineers  and 
firemen,  and  freight  engineers  and  firemen.  Those  are  the  rates 
requested,  as  I  imderstandl 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  sir,  and  have  been  inserted  here  for  con- 
venience only. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Simply  for  comparison? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  as  you  read  down  the  column  you  can 
easily  ascertain  where  the  rates  are  as  high  or  higher,  and  on 
what  railroads  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir.  Can  I  call  attention  to  some  more 
errors  in  this! 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes,  explain  as  far  as  you  like. 

Mr.  Carter:  By  referring  to  page  25,  for  the  Northern 
Pacific,  you  will  note  that  a  2-10-0  engine  is  reported  with  rates 
for  firemen,  in  both  passenger  and  freight  service.  When  that 
was  included  in  that  table  it  was  believed  that  that  locomotive 
weighed  140,000  pounds,  or  over,  but  in  a  careful  recheck,  after 
the  printing  of  this  statement,  we  find  that  that  engine  weighs 
only  130,540  pounds  on  drivers,  which  should  properly  place  it 
back  in  the  preceding  group,  under  diagram  4.  It  is  really  a 
lighter  engine,  even  though  it  has  a  higher  rate,  than  we  at  first 
thought  it  was. 

Mr.  Phillips:  To  what  particular  engine  do  you  refer  now, 
under  the  Northern  Pacific  group — there  are  several  groups 
there! 

Mr.  Carter:     The  2-10-0. 

Mr.  Phillips:     The  last  one  quoted? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  should  go  back  on  the  preceding  page, 
under  diagram  41 

Mr.  Carter:  In  place  of  coming  in  the  group  of  140,000 
pounds  and  less  than  170,000  pounds,  it  should  have  been  in- 
cluded in  the  smaller  group  of  locomotives  weighing  100,0(K) 
pounds  and  less  than  140,000  pounds. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  desire  to  make  any  further  explana- 
tions? 


0»'."  .   . ^  ^^M    I  II  ■■!  I  I 


368 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes  sir.  At  the  foot  of  page  27,  Chicago  Great 
Western,  there  is  shown  for  locomotives  of  this  weight,  under 
diagram  6,  a  $5.35  rate  for  engineers  in  passenger  service,  on 
a  2-8-2  locomotive.  When  this  table  was  prepared  the  schedule 
of  the  Chicago  Great  Western  was  interpreted  to  mean  that  that 
was  the  rate  paid.  The  schedule,  I  think,  has  a  provision  some- 
thing like  this,  after  quoting  rates  for  passenger  engines,  or 
rather  certain  passenger  engines,  there  is  a  provision  in  the 
schedule  that  conveys  the  idea  that  on  all  freight  engines,  when 
used  in  i:)assenger  service,  they  will  take  a  rate  25  cents  less 
than  the  freight  rate.  Now,  we  attempted  to  interpret  that  rule 
and  placed  this  engine  here  as  drawing  $5.35  in  passenger 
service.  Subsequently,  however,  investigation  shows  that  that 
particular  locomotive  has  no  rate  fixed  for  it  in  passenger  serv- 
ice, nor  has  it  ever  been  used  in  passenger  service,  and  I  think 
there  is  a  doubt  as  to  what  would  be  the  rate  on  that  engine  if* 
used  in  passenger  service.  To  that  extent  I  would  like  to 
correct  that  statement  there. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Anything  further  by  way  of  corrections? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  except  to  say  this,  and  I  hope  this  will 
apply  to  any  exhibit  that  I  present,  that  if  there  is  any  question 
as  to  a  rate,  or  where  there  is  no  question  as  to  a  rate,  I  shall 
be  glad  to  have  anyone  who  desires  to  verify  the  accuracy  of 
any  of  these  rates  quoted,  join  with  me  and  we  will  go  over  the 
entire  matter.  We  have  prepared  for  such  an  emergency  by 
having  reference  numbers  whereby  we  can  refer  from  this 
exhibit  back  to  the  page  of  the  schedule.  We  have  reference 
numbers  on  the  schedule  whereb}^  we  can  refer  to  the  page  of 
the  blueprint,  and  I  do  not  think  it  will  be  very  much  trouble 
to  either  verify  the  accuracy  of  these  rates  or  else  demonstrate 
their  inaccuracy. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  you  think  the  explanations  you  have 
made  and  the  corrections  to  which  you  have  called  attention, 
sometimes  being  a  transposition  of  rates,  or  perhaps  sometimes 
improper  rates  inserted, — aside  from  that,  these  tables  are  as 
correct  as  they  can  be  made  by  human  beings? 

Mr.  Carter:     By  some  human  beings. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  hope  our  friends  \dll  permit  us  to  make 
corrections  where  errors  are  found,  and  in  return  for  that,  I 
will  be  glad  to  reciprocate. 


369 

Mr.  Slieean :     No  question  about  that  at  all. 
Mr.  Phillips:    What  you  mean  to  imply,  if  errors  have 
been  made,  it  has  been  in  the  hurry  or  in  the  maze  of  compila- 
tion and  that  you  have  the  supporting  data,  I  understand  you 
to  say? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  you  will  correct  anything  called  to  your 
attention  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  make  that  statement  with  the  opinion  that 
there  are  no  errors  to  correct. 
Mr.  Phillips :     We  hope  not. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  do  not  want  to  discredit  the  value  of  this 
or  any  other  statement  by  intimating  that  I  think  there  are 
errors  there. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  impression  you  msh  to  convey  is  it 
is  not  your  desire  to  give  any  erroneous  information  to  the 
Board  for  its  guidance. 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  sir,  and  to  invite  the  representatives  of 
the  railroads  to  join  with  me  in  checking  the  accuracy  of  any 
of  these  rates. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  what  is  the  table  on  page 
16? 

.  Mr.  Carter :     That  table  on  page  16  is  additional  informa- 
tion .concerning  locomotives  shown  in  the  diagram.    In  the  dia- 
grams I  show  weight  on  drivers,  tractive  power,  length  of  wheel 
base  and  area  of  heating  surface.    In  this  table,  on  page  16,  I 
shown  a  diagram  of  groups  of  locomotives  by  weight  on  drivers, 
the  rates  requested,  and  repeat  the  tractive  power,  and  then 
show,  in  addition  thereto,  the  size  of  the  cylinders,  the  steam 
pressure,  reported  in  the  blueprints ;  the  diameter  of  the  drivers, 
and  the  grate  area.    The  purpose  of  all  of  these  specifications  is 
to  show  that  gradually,  as  the  weight  on  drivers  increases,  and 
gradually,  as  the  requests  for  wages  increases,  so  do  practically 
all  other  matters  pertaining  to  locomotives  increase.     I  would 
like  to  call  attention  to  at  least  one  effort  on  my  part  not  to  over- 
estimate the  importance  of  this  table.    We  have  one  of  the  rail- 
roads in  this  movement  known  as  the  El  Paso  &  SoutliAVestern 
Railroad.    It  is  on  an  eight  hour  basis,  and  if  wo  would  quote  the 
rates  from  that  road,  on  the  eight  hour  basis,  they  would  sup- 
plant many  of  the  rates  we  show  here,  because  they  would  be 
higher. 


v*A^7:*  *  «  »-«-»»  -  ^i-i  •  M  T^a^^^iH^«i"^«  -^r  w  w  •  t  Ti  "rX^TT^^^^^K^^^^^^^^ 


370 

We  AvouKl  prefer  to  have  it  said  at  least  that  after  we  had 
made  the  presentation  of  rates  that  are  as  high  or  higher  than 
we  request,  we  have  still  some  in  reserve  that  are  higher  yet. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  you  have  not — in  formulating  this  re- 
quest or  the  proposition  now  before  this  Board  of  Arbitration 
you  have  not  asked  for  the  highest  rates  now  paid  to  engineers 
and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  AVith  the  exceptions  as  it  may  be  found  that 
on  the  El  Paso  «&  Soutliwestern,  under  the  eight  hour  day,  higher 
rates  are  being  paid.  I  presume  it  will  not  be  necessary  for  me 
to  explain  that  the  rate  of  wages  per  day  would  actually  be 
higher  Avhen  the  day  was  of  eight  hours  duration  than  wlicn  tlie 
day  was  of  ten  hours  duration. 

Mr.  Phillips:  AVell,  1  understand,  Mr.  Carter,  in  reading 
these  tables,  that  you  have  taken  rates  here  from  roads  that 
are  on  a  ten  hour  basis! 

Mr.  Carter:     Ten  hour  basis. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  But  on  the  roads  in  the  proposition  submitted 
to  arbitration,  will  they  be  found  to  be  higher  in  all  instances 
than  some  of  the  rates  now  in  effect  on  some  of  the  railroads 
according  to  this  arbitration?  I  refer  specifically  to  the  ten 
hour  rates. 

Mr.  Carter:  It  is  my  miderstanding  that  the  El  Paso  & 
Southwestern  pays  about  the  highest  rate  to  engineers  and  fire- 
men of  any  road  in  the  west,  if  you  will  take  into  consideration 
the  actujd  rate  and  the  length  of  the  work  table. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Well,  leaving  out  the  eight  hour  road,  Mr. 
Carter,  does  a  liigher  rate  appear  in  the  schedules  for  engineers 
and  firemen  on  any  of  the  ten  hour  roads  than  is  requested  in  the 
proposition  submitted  to  arbitration! 

Mr.  Carter :  Certainly.  That  is  what  this  arbitration  is 
for.    If  I  understand  your  question. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Well,  if  you  don't  understand  my  question 
I  will  be  glad  to  repeat  it,  because  I  want  to  get  my  meaning 
very  clear.  I  understood  you  to  say,  that,  taking  into  considera- 
tion the  El  Paso  &  Soutliwestern  Railroad  eight  hour  schedule 
and  the  very  high  rates  of  pay  now  in  effect  on  that  railroad — 
perhaps  in  every  instance  higher  than  requested,  that  you  con- 
sider that  about  the  highest  paid  road.  That  was  my  under- 
standing of  your  reply. 


371 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  with  certain  modifications.  There  are 
rates  requested  on  very  large  locomotives  in  our  proposition 
that  are  not  in  service  on  the  El  Paso  &  Southwestern  Railroad. 
Therefore,  that  road  does  not  pay  those  rates. 

Mr.  Phillips:  This  is  the  part  I  want  you  to  understand 
very  clearly.  Leaving  out  the  El  Paso  &  Southwestern  or  any 
other  eight  hour  road,  considering  only  the  ten  hour  roads,  are 
there  rates  in  effect  for  engineers  and  firemen  on  many  of  the 
ten  hour  roads,  or  any  of  the  ten  hour  roads,  higher  than  the 
rates  in  the  proposition  submitted  to  arbitration? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes.    That  is  the  purpose  of  this  table. 

Mr.  Phillips :    That  is  the  question  I  was  asking 

Mr.  Carter :    The  table  shows  that  on  its  face. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  you  asked  for  a  reduction  of  the  rates 
that  are  higher  than  the  rates  requested! 

Mr.  Carter:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :    Why  did  you  not  do  that? 

Mr.  Carter :  It  was  agreed  by  representatives  of  the  rail- 
roads and  representatives  of  the  engineers  and  firemen  that 
wages  that  were  higher  w^ould  be  maintained.  A  saving  clause, 
I  suppose  you  mean. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is  the  clause  which  has  been  referred 
to  one  or  twice? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  is  a  part  of  the  articles  of  agreement  to 
submit  these  matters  to  arbitration? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Providing  in  a  general  way  that  rates  that 
are  higher  than  rates  granted  in  this  arbitration  will  remain  in 
effect.  Therefore,  the  men,  or  engineers  or  firemen,  now  receiv- 
ing a  rate  higher  than  is  requested,  even  though  the  entire — all 
of  the  rates  requested  were  granted,  would  receive  no  increase 
in  pay  in  their  rates  ? 

Mr.  Carter :    Their  present  rate  would  be  maintained. 

Mr.  Phillips :  They  would  receive  neither  an  increase  nor 
a  decrease? 

Mr.  Carter:    That  is  the  understanding  of  the  agreement. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  I  understood  you  to  say  at 
the  outset  in  your  general  explanation  that  productive  efficiency 
or  increased  earning  capacity  went  hand  in  hand  with  increased 


:%»#■••  ^ 


372 

tractive  power  or  greater  tonnage  capacity  of  locomotives,  and 
that  it  was  your  belief  that  wages  should  increase  somewhat  in 
the  same  proportion — wages  for  engineers  and  firemen. 

Mr.  Carter:     Not  in  the  same  ratio,  I  didn't  say. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is  the  question  I  was  about  to  ask  you. 
Do  these  rates  of  wages  requested  increase  in  the  ratio  indicated 
by  these  diagrams?  I  understood  you  to  say  that  that  was  a 
general  indication  of  ratio,  increased  tonnage? 

Mr.  Carter :  There  is  no  approach  to  the  ratio  of  increase 
in  the  productive  efficiency  of  the  man  and  the  machine  in  the  in- 
crease in  the  rates  requested.  For  instance,  by  referring  to 
these  diagrams  and  comparing  the  tractive  power  of  the  loco- 
motive in  Diagram  1  on  page  10  with  the  tractive  power  of  the 
locomotive  in  Diagram  12  on  page  15,  without  scaling  it  or  per- 
forming any  mathematical  calculation,  I  would  say  that  it  is  six 
times  greater.  Now,  the  request  for  the  wages  for  the  engineer 
in  freight  service  on  the  small  engine  is  five  dollars,  and  on  this 
huge  engine  it  is  $8.25.    For  a  guess,  63  per  cent  increase. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Not  600  per  cent? 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  600  per  cent.  And  an  increased  pro- 
ductive efficiency  of  the  man  and  the  machine.  You  understand 
that  I  simply  looked  at  those  two  diagrams  and  guessed  at  the 
percentage  of  increase. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  just  wanted  to  ask  you.  I  was  looking  over 
to  see.    These  are  types  of  engines  in  use? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  correct.  It  is  65.  I  said  63.  I  just 
looked  at  it. 

Mr.  Pliilli})s :  I  just  want  to  ask  you.  These  two  diagrams 
represent  engines  in  use  in  the  Western  territory  on  roads  par- 
ties to  this  arbitration.  I  mean  the  two  you  refer  to  in  making 
this  comparison  or  illustration? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  and  all  of  the  engines  illustrated  in  any 
manner  in  this  statement  are  in  service  on  some  Western  rail- 
roads, except  the  Triplex  locomotive  shown  on  page  37,  only  one 
of  which  has  ever  been  constructed,  and  that  is  in  service  on  the 
Erie  Railroad.  It  is  the  latest  addition  to  the  family  of  loco- 
motives.   It  is  the  baby. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  have  understood  there  are  two  more  or- 
dered. You  said  a  while  ago,  Mr.  Carter — and  I  just  want  to 
ask  you  this  question  in  order  that  you  may  explain  a  former 


373 

statement,  that  in  this  engine  the  tender  had  something  to  do 
with  the  capacity  of  the  locomotive  but  had  not  in  the  other 
locomotive.  Will  you  explain  that,  please?  I  refer  to  the  Triplex 
on  page  37. 

Mr.  Carter :  The  tender  of  a  locomotive  has  been  used  dur- 
ing all  past  years  for  the  purpose  of  conveying  supplies  for  the 
locomotive — coal,  water,  tools.  You  might  compare  the  tender 
to  a  deadhead  passenger.    There  is  no  revenue  from  the  tender. 

Now,  the  builder  of  the  "Triplex"  conceived  the  idea  of 
making  the  tender  not  only  pay  its  own  way,  but  help  pull  the 
cars,  and  therefore  we  have  three  locomotives  combined  in  one 
locomotive  in  the  "Triplex,"  as  we  have  two  locomotives  com- 
bined in  one  locomotive  in  the  Mallet. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  tliis  Mallet  which  you  used  for  the  pur- 
pose of  exemplifying  the  greatly  increased  tonnage  capacity  or 
tractive  power  of  locomotives,  it  being  about  six  times  greater 
than  that  of  the  smallest  locomotive  in  use  on  Western  railroads 
— I  understand  that  Mallet  engine  is  in  use  on  a  Western  road  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  is  in  use  on  the  Northern  Pacific  Railroad, 
if  I  remember  right.    It  is  Class  N-1,  I  think. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But  although  the  tractive  power  of  that  en- 
gine is  six  times  greater,  you  do  not  ask  rates  six  times  higher 
for  engineers  or  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  Eoughly  speaking,  while  the  tractive  power 
of  the  locomotive  is  600  per  cent  greater,  the  wages  requested  are 
approximately  between  60  and  70  per  cent  greater.  You  might 
say  that  the  ratio  of  the  increase  in  wages  is  about  one-tenth  of 
the  increase  in  tractive  power,  roughly  speaking. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Permit  me  to  call  your  attention  to  one  more 
misstatement.  You  stated  a  moment  ago  that  this  Mallet  engine 
was  in  use  on  the  Northern  Pacific.  Please  refer  to  page  15  of 
your  exhibit. 

Mr.  Carter :    I  meant  the  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  is  not  material,  but  we  want  to  have  it 
correct. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  should  have  said  the  Great  Northern.  Tt^ 
belongs  to  the  same  family.    Mr.  Hill  owns  both. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Well,  giving  the  Great  Northern  the  credit 
for  this  Mallet,  the  increase  of  rate  requested  is  about  one- 
tenth  of  the  increase  in  the  tractive  power  f 


n.f  ^-  "if M  1  fci  /.>.*!  ^  y  f  ■ , ^J.'^^^^^T^^M^^*'^/^*  ' 


374 

^fr.  Carter:     I  liavo  not  made  tliat  estimate  exactly. 

Mr.  Piiillips:  You  only  make  it  in  a  general  way;  but 
the  increase  requested  is  not  six  times  as  much,  although  the 
tractive  power  is  six  times  as  great? 

lif r.  Carter :     The  increase  requested  is  not  twice  as  much. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is  what  I  was  getting  at.  You  say  it 
is  65  per  cent  greater? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     I  think  that  is  all. 

The  Chairman :  I  think  we  can  hardly  begin  the  cross  ex- 
amination tonight. 

Mr.  Slieean:  No,  and  I  assume  that  Mr.  Carter  vnW  be 
here,  and  as  this  exhibit  seems  to  be  quite  complicated,  if  it  is 
entirely  agreeable  I  would  rather  cross-examine  him  after  I  have 
had  some  opportunity  to  go  over  the  exhibit. 

Mr.  Carter:  Pardon  me  for  making  a  suggestion,  but  I 
hope  the  cross-examination  will  cease  before  I  assume  another 
duty.  I  should  hate  to  go  on  the  stand  for  cross-examination  as 
a  witness  after  I  have  assumed  that  other  duty. 

Mr.  Slieean:     Well,  I  can,  if  you  insist — 

Mr.  Carter:  I  shall  be  here  for  several  davs,  the  wav  we 
are  progressing,  as  a  witness. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  understood  that  you  Avere  through  as  a  wit- 
ness. 

Mr.  Stone:     May  I  ask  you  wliy  you  make  that  statement? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  appear  as  leading  counsel  for  one  part  of 
this  ])roceeding;  and  in  order  to  appear  as  a  witness  and  present 
some  matters  that  I  have  prepared,  I  have  refrained  from  taking 
any  part  in  these  proceedings  as  counsel.  Now,  when  I  leave 
the  witness  stand  I  prefer  to  cease  being  a  witness. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  right,  Mr.  Carter.  You  are  through  with 
the  direct,  and  I  will  be  ready  to  cross-examine  tomorrow 
morning. 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  necessarily  so.  I  will  be  here  two  or 
three  days. 

The  Chainnan:  He  means  before  he  gets  to  his  branch  of 
the  case  as  counsel,  I  presume. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  please,  by  way  of  explanation, 
I  may  say,  Mr.  Carter  having  explained  his  Jekyll  and  Hyde 
position,  appearing  in  one  part  of  this  doubleheader  as  chief 


375 

counsel — I  think  the  responsibility  is  divided — Mr.  Carter  will 
perhaps  later  take  part  in  the  examination  of  witnesses.  Now, 
if  I  understand  him  correctly,  he  desires  to  finish  entirely  his 
appearance  as  a  witness  before  he  assumes  the  position  of  coun- 
sel. I  think  the  reason  why  he  states  he  will  be  here  two  or 
three  days  is  that  additional  witnesses  may  go  on  before  Mr. 
Carter  is  called  to  examine  any  witnesses. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Tomorrow  is  Friday.  I  will  be  quite  ready  to 
cross-examine  Mr.  Carter  on  Monday  morning.  My  only 
thought  was  that  it  would  probably  be  more  convenient  all 
around,  if  you  had  other  witnesses,  to  go  right  ahead  with  them 
now,  and  that  I  would  be  able  to  shorten  up  the  cross-examina- 
tion if  I  could  have  time  to  see  what  there  was  in  this  exhibit 
before  I  tried  to  cross-examine.  I  will  be  prepared  to  do  that  on 
Monday  if  that  is  entirely  agreeable. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  can  only  say  as  to  that,  if  several  -witnesses 
introduce  exhibits,  and  in  each  case  there  should  be  great  delay 
in  making  investigations  before  the  ^\itness  can  be  cross-ex- 
amined,! fear  the  time  of  our  hearings  will  be  greatly  prolonged ; 
because  my  understanding  is  that  there  will  be  many  exhibits  in- 
troduced from  both  sides ;  and  while  I  do  not  wish  in  any  manner 
to  inconvenience  the  counsel  for  the  railroads  in  his  cross-exam- 
ination, I  think  I  can  appreciate  how  I  would  feel  if  I  was  in  the- 
same  position,  and  I  think  he  should  have  sufficient  time  to  exam- 
ine the  exhibit  carefully;  but  I  do  not  think  it  would  be  good 
practice  to  permit  a  witness  to  give  his  testimony,  dismiss  him 
for  several  days,  and  then  have  a  number  of  additional  exhibits 
accumulate  during  that  time,  and  have  a  cross-examination  later 
on  a  subject  that  has  been  passed.  That  is  my  own  idea.  I 
believe  it  will  expedite  matters  if  we  can  keep  up  with  the  cross- 
examination. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  wish  to  co-operate  in  anything  that  will  pre- 
vent delay,  and  my  suggestion  was  partly  prompted  by  the  idea 
that  if  I  at  least  had  time  to  read  a  book  before  I  attempted  to 
cross-examine  on  it,  I  probably  could  shorten  my  cross-examina- 
tion. 

The  Chairman:  Gentlemen,  after  consulting  the  conveni- 
ence of  the  Board,  it  is  agreed  that  until  otherwise  ordered  the 
Board  will  convene  at  10  A.  M.,  take  a  recess  at  12 :30,  reconvene 
at  2 :30  and  adjourn  at  5  P.  M. 


376 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  please,  just  a  moment.  In  line 
with  the  suggestion  of  counsel  for  the  railroads,  if  it  is  desired, 
I  believe  it  can  be  arranged  to  exchange  exhibits  on  both  sides, 
if  the  railroads  are  prepared  so  to  exchange  exhibits  that  will 
later  be  introduced,  and  possibly  time  can  be  saved  thereby. 

The  Chairman:  We  should  like  very  much  to  have  that 
course  pursued,  if  it  is  convenient. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  shall  be  glad  to  do  that  as  soon  as  we  have 
some  idea  as  to  what  exhibits  may  be  necessary,  when  I  have 
got  a  line  as  to  what  the  proof  is  to  be. 

The  Chairman :  While  we  should  not  have  any  undue  haste, 
I  think  we  ought  to  proceed  as  speedily  as  possible  with  this  in- 
vestigation. 

Mr.  Sheean :    Absolutely,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Phillips :  At  any  time  when  it  is  convenient,  or  if  the 
representatives  of  the  railroads  are  prepared  to  exchange  ex- 
hibits, I  am  sure  we  can  arrange  to  give  copies  of  every  exhibit 
we  shall  introduce.  In  fairness  I  think  we  should  have  copies 
of  their  exhibits  at  the  same  time,  so  that  we  may  make  some 
study  of  them.  Perhaps  we  can  thereby  save  a  great  deal  of 
time  ourselves. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  comparison  of  schedules  to  which  I  re- 
ferred is  not  completed  as  yet.    It  has  not  gone  to  final  proof. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Chairman,  I  should  like  to  say  one  word. 
You  can  readily  understand  that  it  would  be  unfair  to  our  side 
to  lay  all  our  cards  on  the  table  and  let  the  other  side  make  up 
their  minds  what  they  are  going  to  present. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  the  Board  please,  I  will  withdraw  my  re- 
quest, and  will  be  ready  to  cross-examine  the  witness  tomorrow 
morning. 

The  Chairman :  We  will  adjourn  until  10  o  'clock  tomorrow 
morning. 

(Whereupon,  at  4:58  o'clock  P.  M.,  December  3, 1914,  an  ad- 
journment was  taken  until  10  o'clock  A.  M.  December  4,  1914.) 


377 

IX    THE   MATTER   OF   THE 

ARBITRATION 

between  the 

WESTERN  RAILWAYS 

and 

BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 

ENGINEERS 

and 

BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE  FIRE 

MEN  AND  ENGINEMEN 

nnder  the  Act  approved  July  15,  1913,  by  agree- 
ment dated  August  3,  1914. 


(Miicago,  Illinois,  Dec.  4,  1914. 

Met  pursuant  to  adjoiirnmeiit  at  10  o'clock  A.  M. 
Present:     Arbitrators  and  ]>arties  as  before. 

W.  S.  CARTER  was  recalled  for  further  examination  and 
having-  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Cliainnan,  before  continuing  either  liie 
examination  or  cross-examination,  Mr.  Carter  desiies  to  make 
some  corrections  in  the  copy  of  yesterday. 

The  Chairman:     J^et  tlie  corrections  be  made. 

Mr.  Carter:  Ujion  reading  the  printed  ])roceedings  (d"  yes- 
terday I  find  that  my  testimony  begins  on  page  o4."),  and  1  have 
said  some  things  that  I  did  not  intend  to  say. 

On  page  352,  in  the  third  ])aragraph  from  the  top,  1  sax': 
*' Pressure  on  the  cylinders."  I  should  have  said  "])ressure  in 
the  cylinders. ' ' 

In  the  next  to  the  last  i)aragraph,  on  the  same  pag<',  in  two 
places,  occur  the  words  '^more  effective  }»ressure."  They  should 
be  ''mean  effective  pressure." 

On  page  353,  in  the  third  line  from  the  l)ottom,  the  woids 
"condensation  of  cylinders"  should  be  ''condensation  in  cylin- 
ders." 

On  page  355,  in  the  lifth  line  of  the  next  to  the  last  |»ara- 
graph,  the  words  "screw  down  the  pot"  should  be  ''screw  down 


378 

flic  pop."     In  explanation  I  will  say  that  "p»>p"  is  tli<'  <Mii»in«'- 
mcn's  iianio  for  safety  valve. 

On  ])agp  .'^57  in  tlio  next  to  the  last  ]»ara4;rap]i  Mr.  i*liillips 
asks: 

"And  that  M  f.  Woi'tliinuton  voieed  the  sentinieiit  of  the 
Western  I'aih-oads." 

My  reply  was:     "I  so  understood."  and  so  forth. 

At  the  time  that  1  made  tlio  ivply  I  understood  Mr.  Phillips 
to  say  "Eiasteni  railroads,"  because  Mr.  Woithinglon  was  not 
re])resentin<>-  the  Western  railroads. 

^Ir.  Pliilli]>s:  AVliile  1  inay  have  said  "Western  railroads" 
I  intended  to  say  "Eastern  railroads,"  and  1  would  like  to  have 
the  record  corrected  to  that  extent.  If  you  will  read  the  ([uestiou 
directly  above  that  you  will  note  that  1  had  made  incpiiry  re^ard- 
ini»'  the  Western  railroads,  and  inten<ied  to  make  the  next  in(|uii"y 
rei>ardini>-  the  p]astern  railroads. 

Afr.  Carter:  On  ))age  o5S,  in  the  third  i)ara4;rapli,  the 
Chairman  says:  "AV(41,  are  the  waijfes  of  firemen  iiraduated 
aceordini;-  to  the  weig'ht  of  the  engine?" 

I  rei)lied  "In  the  p]ast,  altogether." 

When  1  made  that  re))ly  I  understood  the  ("haiiinan  to  have 
said.  "Well,  are  the  wages  of  lii-emen  graduated  according  to 
the  weight  on  drivers." 

He  evidently  said  "weight  of  the  ('ngin(\"  and  I  thought  he 
meant  weight  on  drivers.  That  is  the  (piestion  which  T  intended 
to  answei-. 

Ml-.  Stone:     May  1  ask  a  (|uestion  here? 

Mr.  Carter:     Certainly. 

Mr.  Stone:  It  is  true,  is  it  not,  that  the  firemen's  ])ay  is 
gTaduate(l  on  the  weight  on  drivers? 

Mi-.   Carter:      Ves. 

Mr.  Stone:     ( )n  engines  in  the  Kast  ? 

M  r.  ( 'artrr  :      Ves. 

On  i)age  .'Mi*.  1  note  a  tyi)ographical  error,  "between  1000,- 
000  and  Un,()()()."    It  should  be  "between  100,000  and  140,000." 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  not  think  that  l.OOO.OOO  ])ounds  would 
be  a  good  engine  m  freight  service? 

Mr.  Carter:     Oh,  she  is  coming. 

Fn  file  eleventh  line  of  the  same  paragraph  on  ])age  859,  I 


3T9 

said  "4-6-2"  -ill  doscriiniig  a  locomotive.     1  slioiild  liaxc  said 
''4-4-2."     ■ 

On  pag-e  :)()2,  second  ijaragrapii,  in  tlie  sevenlli  line  of  that 
paragraph,  I  said  "Prairie  tY])e  of  engine,"  when  I  intench'd  to 
say  "Pacific  type  of  engine." 

On  page  367,  in  the  long  i)aragrai)li  in  the  center  of  tiie  page, 
the  third  paragraph  from  the  bottom,  i  am  quite  sure  that  tliis 
was  jnst  what  I  said,  l)nt  it  was  wrong.  Instead  of  saying  "we 
find  that  that  engine  weighs  only  130,540  pounds  on  drivers, 
which  sliould  pro})erly  place  it  back  in  the  i)receding  group, 
under  diagram  4,"  and  where  Mr.  Phillips,  further  down  on  tlie 
same  ])age,  says  "under  diagram  4,"  it  should  have  l)een  "under 
diagram  3."    That  was  clearly  an  error  on  our  part. 

On  page  370,  the  fourth  paragraph  from  the  bottom,  tlie  last 
line:  "The  actual  rate  and  length  of  the  work  tal)le,"  I  in- 
tended to  have  said,  "The  actual  length  of  the  work  day.". 

In  the  next  to  the  last  paragraph,  in  reply  to  a  (piestion  from 
Mr.  P]iilli})s,  I  said,  "Certainly;  that  is  what  this  arbitration  is 
for."  I  intended  to  have  said  "Certainly.  That  is  what  this 
presentation  is  for,"  meaning  this  exhibit. 

The  Chairman :  Are  you  ready  to  proceed  witli  the  exam- 
ination? '  .     - 

Mr.  Stone  :  Mr.  Chairman,  if  I  miglit :  we  reallv  closed  last 
night,  Init  it  occurred  to  us  we  would  like  to  ask  one  or  two  more 
questions. 

Mr.  Carter,  in  your  testimonv  vesterdav  of  the  weight  on 
drivers  and  tractive  power,  you  made  no  com]iarison  between 
the  tractive  power  of  an  electric  locomotive  and  that  of  steam. 
Is  tliere  any  difference  in  regard  to  these  two,  in  regard  to  their 
weight  on  drivers,  and  in  regard  to  the  tractive  power? 

Mr.  Carter:  Do  you  mean  the  ratio  of  weiglit  on  (h-ivers  to 
tractive  power  f 

Mr.  Stone  :v¥es. 

Mr.  Carter:  ^No,  the  co-efficient  of  adhesion  is  practically 
the  same,  but  with  regard  to  the  developed  tractive  power,  it  is 
much  greater  in  Ihe  electric  locomotive.  Do  you  desire  explana- 
tion? 

Mr.  Stone:  If  yoii  will  explain  to  the  Board,  so  they  will 
understand  whether  or  not  it  Would  be  of  benefit  to  Ihe  comj^niiy. 


380 

or  wlietluT  tlioy  would  lost'  anytliin^-  it'  tlu'v  sub.stituted  elec- 
tricity for  steam.    Explain  the  value  of  the  increase. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  i)raeti(^ally  all  mechanical  writers  and 
speakers  of  the  day  agi'ee  that  locomotives  in  steam  service, 
with  the  same  weight  on  drivers,  develop  a  much  less  tractive 
power  than  electric  locomotives,  and  for  the  following  reasons: 
a  steam  locomotive  is  made  up  of  two  reciprocating  engines,  and 
all  reciprocating  engines  are  in  theory  very  uneconomical. 

First,  the  maximum  force  a[)i)lied  to  the  piston  is  only 
maintained  in  the  cylinder  until,  for  the  sake  of  expansion,  the 
admission  of  steam  is  cut  otf.  Therefore,  the  force  applied  in 
that  cylindei"  rapidly  diminishes  during  the  revolution — the 
revolution  of  that  side. 

Next,  on  account  of  the  position  of  the  pin  on  the  driving 
wheel,  there  may  be  a  total  absence  of  leverage.  When  the 
pin  is  directly  between  the  cylinder  and  the  center  of  the  axle 
(that  is,  in  the  same  line),  the  force  exerted  against  the  wrist 
pin  does  not  tend  to  turn  the  locomotive.  It  is  only  when  the 
engine  on  the  other  side  of  the  locomotive  propels  the  train  off 
of  what  we  call  the  center,  that  the  real  power  developed  in 
that  cylinder  begins  to  exert  itself,  and  requires  the  driver  to 
turn. 

The  greatest  leverage  is  found  either  at  the  bottom  or  the 
lo})  center.  But,  unfortunately,  we  have  another  element  to 
counteract  that  leverage,  known  as  the  angularity  of  the  rod. 
That  is,  when  the  pin  is  in  position  where  the  steam  could 
exert  the  highest  power,  it  is  out  of  line,  and  the  pressure  of  the 
piston  is  divided  betw^een  the  pin  on  one  side  and  the  guide  on 
the  other. 

I  can  compare  force  exerted  to  a  driving  wheel  on  a  loco- 
motive to  the  turning  of  a  grindstone.  It  is  simply  a  push  and 
a  pull,  a  push  and  a  pull.  Now,  if  any  of  you  have  been  so 
unfortunate  as  to  have  to  turn  a  grindstone  in  your  boyhood 
days,  you  know  you  would  not  apply  the  power  all  the  time; 
it  was  intermittent.  Now,  in  a  steam  locomotive  it  is  the  maxi- 
mum power  exerted  at  any  point  that  causes  an  engine  to  slip. 

An  electric  locomotive  is  a  rotary  engine,  not  a  recipro- 
cating engine.  There  is  a  constant  turn  and  twist  of  the  axle 
of  the  electric  locomotive,  therefore  there  is  a  constant  appli- 
cation of  the  maximum  tractive  power,  with  the  result  that  an 


381 

electric  locomotive  witli  the  same  weight  on  tlie  drivers  cau 
pull  a  great  deal  more  tonnage,  a  great  many  more  cars  than  cau 
a  steam  locomotive. 

You  will  understand,  that  if  there  were  any  higher  power  or 
force  developed  by  the  electric  locomotive  at  any  point  in  the 
revolution  of  the  wheel,  it  would  slip  in  the  same  manner  that 
the  steam  locomotive  would  slip;  but,  as  I  say,  the  advantage 
of  the  electric  locomotive  is  that  the  force  is  not  ai)plied  by 
impulse,  but  is  a  constant  pull.  You  do  not  want  any  support- 
ing authorities  on  that,  do  you? 

Mr.  Stone:  If  the  other  side  questions  it,  we  have  plenty 
of  authorities.  Have  you  any  large  photographs  of  the  modern 
locomotives  of  today  that  you  could  leave  with  the  Board  for 
their  benefit  or  for  their  information? 

Mr.  Carter:  Upon  the  presumption  that  it  is  permissible, 
I  have  photographs  that  I  had  made  myself  of  the  Erie  ''Trip- 
lex" locomotive,  and  imless  it  wants  to  be  introduced  as  an 
exhibit,  I  will  hand  it  over  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Board.  It  is 
simply  an  illustration  on  a  larger  scale  of  that  locomotive. 

Mr.  Stone:  It  might  be  well  to  unwrap  it  and  let  them  see 
it;  it  won't  take  but  a  moment.  We  all  love  it  so  that  we  want 
everybody  to  see  it. 

Mr.  Carter:  That  is  the  '' Vaterland"  of  American  loco- 
motives, or  the  ''Olympic,"  whatever  you  like  to  call  it.  That 
is  the  largest  articulated  locomotive  built.  I  will  leave  that  with 
the  Board  to  do  with  as  they  like. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  recall  the  weight  on  drivers  —  it  is 
756,000  pounds. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  liave  all  the  dimensions  of  the  locomotive  right 
here  in  my  papers,  if  they  are  desired.  I  have  here  a  picture 
of  the  largest  single  expansion  locomotive  built,  known  as  the 
Santa  Fe  type;  but  this  engine  was  built  for  the  C.  B.  &  Q., 
and  the  photograph  was  kindly  loaned  to  me  by  the  officials  of 
the  C.  B.  &  Q.  That  locomotive  is,  I  believe,  the  greatest  loco- 
motive that  has  ever  been  built,  so  far  as  a  single  expansion  is 
concerned.  That  is  a  recent  addition  to  the  American  locomo- 
tive. If,  at  anv  time,  the  Board  desires  anv  information  as 
to  the  construction  of  a  superheater,  I  have  here  a  diagram 
showing  exactly  how  a  superheater  is  applied  to  a  locomotive* 
and   some  infoiTnation  concerning  the  same.     That   is  issued 


382. 

(•fiicially   hy   I  lie  Anicricau   Locoinotive  Suixnlifater  Coinpany. 

Mr.  Park:  Tlioso  Vjv'w  olivines  liave  automatic  stokers, 
liaven't  they? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  ain  (|uite  sure  that  tlie  "Triph'x"  has,  but  I 
am  not  so  sui<'  lliat  tlie  Santa  Fe  lias.  If  it  lias  not,  it  should 
have. 

Mr.  Bvram:     Thev  have  automatic  stokers,  all  of  them. 

Mr.^  Stone:     That  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Carter:  Pardon  me,  please.  With  youi-  ])ermissiou  I 
thouji^ht  yesterday  that  I  had  called  attention  to  all  of  what 
a])i)eared  to  be  errors  in  this  Exhibit  3,  but  I  tind  I  have  over- 
looked some,  (hi  page  16  we  give  a  rate  for  small  locomotives, 
locomotives  weighing  less  than  80,000  ])ounds  on  drivers,  on 
the  Alberta  division,  or  mountain  districts,  of  the  Canadian 
Pacific  Railroad,  west  of  Fort  William.  If  these  locomotives 
were  used  there  now,  this  rate  would  apply.  I  understand  that 
small  locomotives  are  no  longer  used  on  that  district.  I  want  to 
make  these  corrections  because  I  do  not  want  to  convev  a  wroui!; 
im])i'ession.  Understand,  if  the  locomotive  were  used  there  it 
would  draw  this  rate.  Next,  on  ])age  18,  we  show  that  on  all 
divisions  a  4-4-0  engine  is  paid  a  $5.20  rate.  That  was  true,  but 
they  have  recently  put  that  engine  in  the  yard  as  a  switch  en- 
gine. Understand,  the  statement  is  accurate,  but  they  have 
taken  that  eight  wheel  engine  out  of  road  service  and  are  now 
using  it  as  a  switch  engine. 

Mr.  Phillips:     What  road? 

Mr.  Carter:  On  the  Santa  Fe,  Prescott  &  Phoenix,  near 
the  bottom  of  i^age  18. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  the  Board  i)leases,  the  other  day,  when 
iiKjuiry  was  made  about  the  Northern  Pacific,  in  whose  schedule 
ai)i)eared  the  y^rovision  for  an  automatic  release  and  in  which 
the  question  was  asked  of  Mr.  Cadle  whether  it  was  not  a  fact 
that  where  a  passenger  train  got  off  the  track  a  thousand  feet 
outside  of  the  yard  limits  and  three  switch  engines,  one  after  the 
other,  ran  down  there  to  see  if  they  could  help  re-rail  the  train, 
where  they  could  be  of  no  assistance,  and  came  back  into  the 
yard,  each  one  of  those  crews,  under  this  automatic  release  rule, 
claimed  a  dav.  as  this  was  outside  of  their  vard  service,  and 
every  train  crew  in  the  yard  ])ut  in  a  claim  for  a  day,  because  of 
being  run  around.    Upon  one  member  of  the  Board  stating  that 


383 

he  would  be  much  iiitei'ested  to  know  whether  those  crews  <?ot 
wliat  they  claimed  in  money,  I  answered  that  1  liad  no  informa- 
tion l)ut  would  endeavor  to  ascertain,  and  therefore  Mr.  Trt'n- 
holm  sent  the  followini;-  telegram  to  Mr.  J.  M,  Raix'ljc,  general 
manager.  Northern  Pacific  Railway,  St.  Paul,  Minnesota: 

"in  statement  of  scliedule  negotiations  between  trainnu'ii 
of  the  Northern  Pacilic  Railway  and  the  management  issued  ])y 
your  company,  dated  May  18,  there  appears,  in  second  i>ara- 
graph  on  page  8(j,  instance  where  three  switch  engines  went  just 
beyond  yard  limits  to  see  if  they  could  help  re-rail  train  and  for 
wliich  each  crew  claimed  a  day,  because  it  was  work  outside  yard 
service,  and  each  train  crew  in  yard  put  in  their  run  around. 
AVere  these  claims  actually  allowed?  Will  a]i])reciate  advice  as 
to  just  what  final  settlement  was. 

"A.  W.  TRKXHOLM." 

Mr.  Trenholin  is  in  receipt  of  the  following  reply: 

''St.  Paul,  December  3rd,  1f)14. 
''A.  W.  Trenhohn, 

Chairman,  Conference  Committee, 
Chicago,  Ills. 
Your  wire  second  re  instance  quoted  page  8()  schedule  nego- 
tiations. Men  were  i)aid  amount  of  their  claim,  as,  under  tech- 
nical schedule  application,  they  could  prove  it.  There  were  but 
two  cases  instead  of  three,  as  reported  on  page  86.  Both  switch 
engine  crews  received  day's  pay  for  the  road  trip  and  two  road 
engine  crews  and  one  train  crew  were  each  paid  two  run-a rounds. 

J.  M.  RAP?] up:." 

Mr.  Stone:  I  would  like  to  ask,  Mr.  Chairman,  if  1  may: 
were  those  two  switch  engines  sent  out  by  instructions  of  sonu^ 
official,  or  did  they  go  down  there  out  of  curiosity  t 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  will  be  very  glad  to  send  any  telegram  you 
may  desire,  or  if  it  is  desirable  to  go  into  it,  to  find  wiiat  the  facts 
are — as  1  stated,  I  have  no  knowledge  of  what  the  facts  were  at 
the  time  of  the  negotiation;  but  if  you  will  formuhite  any  tele- 
gram, I  will  be  glad  to  send  it  or  have  Mr.  Rapelje  here. 

The  Chairman:  I  should  be  very  glad  to  have  tliat  infor- 
mation. T  was  just  about  to  ask  the  question  when  Mr.  Stone 
asked  it. 


384 

Ml".  Stone:  For  every  case  of  tliat  kind  that  tliey  will  pro- 
duce— and  1  do  not  <|nestion  that  tliere  ate  such  cases — we  wiU 
guarantee  to  produce  at  least  ten  wliere  le<>itiniate  time  was  not 
alIo\ve<l  hy  some  officious  time-kee])er. 

CKUSS-EXAM I  NATION. 

^Ii-.  Sh(M'an:  Mr.  (^arter,  referring  to  Exliil)it  No.  3,  and 
turning  to  the  diagrams  l)eginning  at  page  10,  take  first,  diagram 
numl)er  1,  in  which  is  sliown  highest  rate  now  paid  for  locomo- 
tives weigliing  less  than  80,000  ])ounds  on  drivers,  1  believe  you 
corrected  this  morning  that  statement  that  ^•S.{]i)  was  now  being 
]»ai<l  on  any  such  engine? 

Ml'.  Carter:  I  said  that  if  the  locomotive  was  not  there  the 
rat*'  was  not  being  ]>ai(i;  but,  if  at  any  time,  the  locomotive  was 
used  there,  it  would  be  })aid. 

Ml*.  Sheean  :  Tliat  is  the  cause  of  the  schedule  i)rovision 
tliat  all  h)com()ti\es,  other  than  Mallet,  if  used  on  this  mountain 
division,  where  tliere  is  a  grade  of  2K'  per  cent,  would  take  this 
rate  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir,  1  tliink  you  have  quoted  the  schedule 
proxision.    I  don't  remember  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  this  diagram  is  made  of  the  Illinois 
Central  engine  known  as  number  ]940,  and  if  that  Illinois  Cen- 
tral engine  oi-  one  of  like  dimensiims  was  0])erated  on  this 
mountain  division  of  the  Canadian  l^acitic,  it  would  take  the  rate? 

^Ir.  Carter:  If  any  locomotive  weighing  80,000  pounds  or 
less  on  drivers  were  operated  on  this  mountain  division  of  the 
Cana<lian  Pacific,  west,  it  would  take  that  rate. 

^Ir.  Sheean  :  Now  "rate  recpiested,"  as  shown  in  your  dia- 
gram, is  .$4.50.  Where,  in  your  proposition,  do  you  find  a  sub- 
mission that  an  engine  o]^erated  on  a  mountain  division  shall 
take  a  rate  of  $4.50  ? 

Mr.  (*arter:  I  think  that  yesterday  T  called  especial  atten- 
tion to  tile  fact  that  when  these  rates  were  inserted  in  these 
diagrams,  no  ]>rovisions  were  made  for  the  differentials  now 
paid  in  tliese  rates  for  mountain  service.  Therefore,  this  only 
shows  the  rate  now  ]>aid,  not  as  it  would  be  paid  if  we  applied 
an  additional  differential  on  account  of  mountain  grades. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then  the  last  line  of  your  summary  of  the 
diagram  "Highest  rate  now  ]iaid,"  does  not  necessarily  mean 


385 

tiiat  ill  any  oiu'  of  tliese  diai^rams  there  is  any  such  rate  Ix-inu 
])aid  on  any  en.uinc;  wliich  is  being  operated? 

Mr.  Carter:  At  the  time  these  diagrams  wer»'  prepaiod  1 
liad  an  assistant,  in  wliose  efficiency  I  have  great  faitli,  insert 
the  rates.  We  mnst  depend  and  did  depend  n])on  the  scli<Mhiles 
in  our  i)os8ession,  upon  the  blueprints  sliowing  the  weight  on 
drivers  of  these  engines;  and  according  to  tlic  scluMlules  tliis 
would  be  the  rate  applied. 

Subsequently,  however,  we  discovered  that  on  tliis  division 
of  the  Canadian  Pacific  they  had  ceased  using  locomotives  of 
these  dimensions. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  I  meant  was  that  this  last  line  in  wliicli 
you  say  "now  paid"  does  not  mean  literally,  in  any  of  tiiese, 
that  that  rate  is  actually  being  paid. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  I  can  say  that  on  the  El  Paso  &  South- 
western, and  possibly  other  roads,  equally  as  high  a  rate  is  now 
]^(\'u\.    It  may  be  that  I  am  mistaken  about  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  T  meant  was.  that,  with  reference  to  your 
diagram,  this  next  to  the  last  line,  ''Highest  rate  now  ])aid"  did 
not  necessarily  mean  that  any  particular  engine  was  ])aying  that 
rate,  but  rather  that  an  engine  of  that  type,  if  operated  on  a 
particular  road  or  division,  would  take  that  rate. 

Mr.  Carter:  The  intention  of  that  diagram — and  I  so  in- 
structed those  who  were  inserting  these  rates — was  that  it  must 
be  a  locomotive  now  in  service  on  some  railroad  jiaying  that  rate. 
Wherever  it  a]ipears  now  to  have  been  inaccurate,  it  was  clearly 
an  error  of  the  one  inserting  that  rate.  Understand,  lie  iiad  to 
depend  upon  the  schedules.  The  schedule  would  indicate  that 
that  was  true.  Subsequent  investigation,  however,  too  hite  to 
have  these  diagrams  reprinted,  proved  that  on  the  C.  P.  R.  moun- 
tain divisions  no  locomotives  weighing  less  than  SO.OOO  pounds 
were  yet  in  use. 

Mr.  Sheean:     "Yet"  or  "still"  in  use? 

Mr.  Carter:  Still —1  will  say  still  and  yet.  It  may  be  that 
tomorrow  they  will  run  one  over  there,  and  then  it  will  be  "yet." 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  suppose  you  have  information  as  to  jn^t 
what  the  rate  is  on  the  particular  engine  which  you  dinuTnni  ni 
each  case? 

Mr.  Carter:     Pardon  me  for  trying  to  testify  foi'  tlie  next 

witness. 


386 

The  next  witness  will  have  a  statement  showing-  tlic  weights 
on  drivers  of  every  locomotive,  on  every  railroa<l,  on  every 
division. 

Mr.  Slu'caii :  And  will  he  also  show  what  the  rates  are 
under  the  present  schednles? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  this  statement  of  yonrs  does  not  pur- 
])()rt  to  show  that  any  particnlar  locomotive,  or  any  partienlar 
nnmher  of  locomotives,  are  actually  drawing-  any  of  these  rates? 

Mr.  Tarter:  This  report  })urports  to  show  the  highest  rate 
now  paid  on  locomotives  of  the  weights  described  in  these  dia- 
grams, the  information  being  taken  from  the  schednles.  Tf  the 
schednles  are  wrong,  or  if  they  are  deceptive,  or  if  they  have 
been  misunderstood,  then  to  that  extent  these  diagrams  are 
wrong. 

Mr.  Sheean:  ^1  r.  Carter,  1  did  not  intend  my  (|uestion  to 
imply  that  they  were  wrong  on  the  basis  on  which  they  were 
made;  l)iit  1  was  sim])ly  trying  to  ascertain  the  basis;  and  if  I 
follow  yon  correctly,  this  statement  was  not  designed  to  show, 
and  therefore  does  not  show  that  any  ]iarticular  number  of 
engines  take,  in  actual  ojieration,  any  particular  rate. 

Mr.  Carter:     Not  as  to  numbers. 

]\Ir.  Sheean:  Or  that  any  engine  actually  does  take  the 
rate  shown  here  in  actual  operation? 

^Ir.  Carter:  That  is  the  express  jnirpose  of  this  exhibit. 
If  it  is  wrong,  as  I  stated  yesterday,  we  want  it  corrected,  for 
our  own  information  as  well  as  that  of  the  Board. 

iSfr.  Sheean:  Well,  in  diagram  '2  yon  have  also  extended 
the  same  $5.65  rate  of  the  Canadian  Pacific. 

iNIr.  (^arter:     The  same. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Have  you  any  information  as  to  whether  or 
not  an  engine  of  the  type  and  style  shown  on  diagram  2  is  in  fact 
operated  on  that  mountain  division  of  the  Canadian  Pacific! 

Mr.  Carter:  1  have  since  learned  from  a  committeeman 
fiom  that  road  that  these  engines  are  not  now  used  there. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  Have  you  any  information  as  to  wdiether  they 
were  ever  used  there? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir,  I  have  not. 

Ml".  Sheean :  Diagram  3  takes  the  same  rate  also,  or  is 
shown  as  taking  the  same  rate. 


387: 

■   Mr.  Carter:     So  far  as  it  a])plies  to  engineers,  yes.     Dia- 
gram 3,  yes,  in  its  entirety. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Tliat  same  rate  of  the  Canadian  Paeific  i.^ 
also  extended  there? 

Mr.  Carter:  In  the  same  manner  as  in  diagram  1,  and  in 
diagram  2. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Have  von  any  information  as  to  wlietlier  the 
engine  shown  in  diagram  3,  or  an  engine  of  that  type,  is  now, 
or  ever  was  used,  on  that  division  of  the  Canadian  Pacific ! 

Mr.  Carter:  1  understand  now  that  it  is  not  now  used,  hut 
I  liave  no  information  as  to  the  character  of  engine  used  tliere 
formerly. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  same  rate  is  also  extended  on  diagiam  4, 
and  would  the  same  answer  apply  as  to  diagram  4? 

Mr.  Carter:  So  far  as  the  rates  for  engineers  arc  con- 
cerned, but  the  rate  for  firemen,  $3.90  on  passenger  and  $4  on 
freight,  1  ex])lained  at  the  foot  of  page  25  in  footnote  1,  wliich 
I  will  read : 

"Eates  of  $3.90  in  passenger  and  $4  in  freight  (freiglit  on 
ten  hour  basis)  a]»plies  on  same  types  of  locomotives  when  fire- 
men are  run  through  from  Roseville  to  Truckee,  but  when 
crews  are  changed  at  Blue  Canyon,  in  freight  service,  tlie  late.s 
are  $3.40  (coal)  and  $3.25  (oil),  on  eight  hour  basis." 

Mr.  Sheean:  Have  you,  Mr.  Carter,  any  knowledge  as  to 
whether  the  engine  indicated  by  diagram  4,  or  an  engine  of  that 
type,  is  actually  operated  on  tlie  mountain  division  of  the  Cana- 
dian Pacific! 

Mr.  Carter:     Southern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Oh,  Sonthein  Pacific?  The  $5.65  rate  is  «m 
the  Southern  Pacific,  is  it '! 

Mr.  Carter:  I  niu  talking  about  the  $3.90  rate  and  the  $4 
rate  for  firemen. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Oh,  I  see.  Tiien  the  rate  t'oi-  engineers  is 
taken  from  the  Canadian  Pacific  schedule? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.   Sheean:     And   tlie   firemen's  rate  from   the  Southern 

Pacific  schedule  f 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sii*. 


388 

Mr.  Slieeaii:  And  applied  to  an  engine  <>])erated  ou  the 
C'liicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  thought  I  ex])lained  yesterday  that  that  was 
not  the  intent  of  the  diagrams.  Those  rates  only  apply  to  the 
black  line — the  engine  described  in  the  black  line  preceding 
the  rates,  which  say:  "Highest  rate  now  paid  for  locomotives 
weighing  140,000  and  less  than  170,000  pounds  on  drivers,"  and 
as  I  explained  yesterday,  that  statement  has  nothing  to  do  with 
the  fact  that  we  have  used  a  specific  tyjDe  engine  for  illustra- 
tive purposes,  which  engine  is  now  in  service  ou  the  Chicago, 
Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul  Railway. 

Mr.  Sheeau:  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  I  did  not  want  to  debate 
the  question,  but  the  fact  is,  is  it  not,  that  the  engine  which  is 
diagrammed  is  an  oil-burning  engine  on  the  Chicago,  Milwau- 
kee &  St.  Paul:'  The  line,  "Highest  rate  now  i)aid  for  loco- 
motives weighing  140,000  pounds  and  less  than  170,000  pounds 
on  drivers,"  is  taken  from  the  mountain  division  of  the  Cana- 
dian Pacific,  and  the  firemen's  rate  extended  o])posite  the  same 
line,  is  taken  from  a  division  oi'  tlie  Southein  Pacific? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  to  whether  an  engine  of  the  tyi)e  and  style 
which  you  diagram  is  operated  either  on  this  division  of  the 
Canadian  Pacific  or  on  the  division  of  the  Southern  Pacific, 
you  have  no  knowledge? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  I  should  be  permitted  to  explain  what 
I  thought  I  had  exjjlained  yesterday.  In  illustrating  increased 
tractive  power  in  these  diagrams,  I  selected  locomotives  at  ran- 
dom. It  so  happened  that,  to  illustrate  a  locomotive  on  which 
we  made  certain  requests  for  wages,  I  happened  to  select  a 
locomotive  in  the  service  of  the  C'hicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul 
Railroad.  These  diagrams  w^ere  drawn;  they  were  reproduced 
in  zinc  etching,  and  after  this  form  was  set,  I  asked  the  clerk 
to  fill  in  the  highest  rate  now  paid  for  locomotives  weighing 
140,000  and  less  than  170,000  on  drivers,  without  regard  to  the 
road. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  I  think  there  is  no  dis- 
agreement between  us  except  as  to  the  "now  paid."  Is  it  or  is 
it  not  a  fact  that  the  "now  paid"  as  used  on  each  of  these  lines 
means  the  rate  which  would  be  paid  on  some  line  if  an  engine 
of  that  sort  were  operated  on  that  line? 


389 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  it  do^^s  not  mean  that  at  all,  Ix'causc 
if  tliat  engine  were  operated  on  some  roads  it  would  take  a 
mucli  lower  rate.  It  means  that  these  are  the  higliest  rates  now 
paid  for  locomotives  weighing  140,000  pounds  and  less  than 
170,000  i)ouuds  on  any  railroad. 

Mr.  Sheean:  AVell  then,  Mr.  Carter,  can  you  tell  when  or 
where,  or  on  what  road,  a  rate  of  $5.65  has  been  i)aid  on  an 
engine  of  that  type  and  style! 

Mr.  Carter:  T  think  the  only  way  to  determine  that  is  to 
check  it  carefully  to  ascertain  its  accuracy.  As  I  have  already 
said,  since  this  rei)ort  has  been  printed,  we  have  been  informed 
by  a  committee  from  the  Canadian  Pacific  Railroad,  that,  at  the 
present  time,  engines  of  this  weight  are  not  operated  on  the 
mountain  division  of  the  C.  P.  R. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  have  you  any  information  as  to  whether 
an  engine  of  the  type  and  style  shown  in  diagram  4,  was,  or 
ever  has  been,  operated  over  the  division  of  the  Southern  Pa- 
cific, as  to  which  you  extend  the  firemen's  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  advised  by  a  gentleman  who  should 
know,  that  that  is  the  fact. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  to  each  of  these  diagrams,  to  the  end,  the 
same  citation  obtains,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  let  us  take  No.  5,  in  which  you  dia- 
gram a  Texas  &  Pacific  Railway  Company  engine,  No.  5,  dia- 
gram 5,  at  page  12.  Have  you  any  knowledge  as  to  whether  or 
not  an  engine  of  that  type  and  style  has  been  operated,  or  is 
now  being  operated  over  this  mountain  division  of  the  Cana- 
dian Pacific  which  takes  a  rate  of  $5.65  on  all  engines  other 
than  Mallet. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  have  no  knowledge  on  the  subject,  and  the 
diagram  does  not  indicate  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Have  vou  anv  knowledge  as  to  whether  an 
engine  of  that  type  and  style  has  been  operated  or  is  being 
operated  on  the  railroad  in  which  you  find  a  schedule  provision 
of  $3.90  in  passenger  and  $4  in  freight,  for  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  have  knowledge  where  a  locomotive  in  these 
classes  of  service,  weighing  170,000  ])ounds  and  less  than  lH)0,000 
pounds  on  drivers,  is  now  receiving  the  rates  lu'iciu  spiwificd. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  how  manv  engines? 


390 

.Mr.  Carter:  i  liavc  no  knowledge  as  to  the  iiunil»(*r  t)f  any 
engines  in  service,  except  as  it  may  be  comnnmicated  to  me 
tlirongh  other  channels  than  that  of  this  schednle. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  then,  Mr.  Carter,  without  taking  up  the 
time  to  take  these  uj)  one  after  the  other  in  detail,  will  you  tell 
us  which  ones  of  the  diagrams  do  represent  an  engine  as  to  which 
the  rate  which  is  actually  pjiid  ujjon  tliat  engine  on  the  road 
where  it  operates,  is  set  forth  here? 

Mr,  Carter:  The  jnirpose  of  including  the  tables  beginning 
on  page  1 7  and  extending  to  page  28,  was  to  answer  that  ques- 
tion. I  anticii)ated  that  some  one  would  desire  to  know  where 
these  rates  are  i)aid.  With  the  exception  of  the  corrections  that 
I  have  already  made,  I  think  all  locomotives  that  now  ))ay  as 
high  or  higher  rates  tliau  requested,  will  be  found  l)eginiiing  on 
page  17,  showing  the  name  of  the  railroad,  the  type  of  the  engine, 
the  division  of  the  railroad  where  used,  and  the  rate  now  ])aid. 

Mr.  Sheean:  "Well  by  "now  paid"  you  mean  which  would 
be  paid  if  they  were  ojierated  again,  do  you  not! 

Mr.  Carter:  My  understanding  is  that  the  engines  are 
there,  with  the  exceptions  I  have  mentioned,  jf  I  am  mistaken 
I  shall  be  glad  to  be  corrected. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Take  diagram  1  at  ])age  18,  the  detail  of  that, 
''Missouri,  Oklahoma  cV:  Gulf.  All  divisions,  a  4-4-0  and  a  4-G-O." 
With  a  freight  rate  of  $r).20  extended  op])osite  that,  the  sixth 
line  down. 

Mr.  Carter:     Read  the  question,  jJease. 

(Question  read  by  the  reporter  as  above  recorded.) 

Mr.  Sheean :  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  their  actually 
operating  a  4-4-0  or  a  4-6-0  in  freight  service  on  that  road? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  only  knowledge  1  have  is  that  in  the 
schedule  of  wages  and  working  conditions  a  rate  is  fixed  for  that 
locomotive. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes,  so  that  if  there  were  any  locomotives  of 
that  type  or  style  operated  it  would  take  that  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  tliat  ai)i)lies  to  every  rate  in  every 
schedule,  and  if  you  will  jiardon  me  for  explaining,  there  is  not 
a  rate  named  in  any  schedule  of  wages,  or  anj'"  wage  agreement, 
that  does  not  imply  that  the  payment  of  the  rate  depends  entirely 
upon  the  use  of  the  engine.  For  instance,  on  a  certain  railroad 
there  mav  1>h   a    rate   foi-  a   certain   locomotive  named   in  the 


391 

sclK'diile.    That  implies  tiiat  the  locomotive  is  tlicre.    Jl  c<'ilaiiily 
implies  that  if  tlie  locomotive  is  there  the  rate  will  ])e  paid. 

Mr.  Sheeaii :  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  that  is  all  that  I  wanted  as 
to  these  tables.  As  to  whether  the  implication  from  the  appear- 
ance of  a  rate  in  a  schedule  was  that  that  particular  road  had  all 
the  classes  of  engines  to  which  that  rate  might  ai)ply.  Take  the 
Canadian  Pacific  schedule  to  which  T  adverted  a  moment  ago,  and 
its  provision  that  all  classes  of  engines  other  than  Mjdlet  shall 
take  the  $5.65  rate.  Does  that  imply  that  they  do  in  fact  have 
all  classes  of  engines  on  that  division? 

Mr.  Carter:     On  what  road! 

Mr.  Sheean  :     The  Canadian  Paeilic. 

Mr.  Carter:  If  does  not  necessarily  imi)Iy  that  they  have 
that  class  of  engine  on  that  division,  but  it  does  imply  that  that 
company  has  in  its  service  that  class  of  an  engine,  and,  when 
used  on  that  division,  that  company  ])ays  the  rate  sj^ecified. 

Ml-.  Sheean:  The  provision  of  that  schedule  is,  ''All 
classes  of  engines  other  than  Mallet."  Does  that  sche<hile  of  the 
provision  im])ly  that  they  have  all  classes  of  engines :' 

Mr.  Charter:  I  take  it  that  you  quote  the  language  of  the 
schedule.  I  do  not  remember  it.  But  presuming  that  your  quo- 
tation is  correct;  it  means  that  all  other  classes  of  engines  in  use 
on  that  division,  take  the  rate  specified. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  now,  Mr.  Carter,  can  you  answer 
directly  whether  or  not  that  implies  that  they  do  have  all  classes 
of  engines'? 

]\Ir.  Carter:  I  thiuk  1  specifically  stated  yesterday  that  I 
have  been  informed  by  a  committeeman,  and  1  have  stated  twice 
this  morning  that  1  have  l)een  informed  by  a  coimuitteeman,  that 
engines  of  this  weight  a]-e  not  in  service  on  those  divisions, 

Mr.  Sheean  :  I  was  discussing  the  second  provision.  Hoes 
the  second  i)rovision,  which  says  that  a  certain  rate  shall  lie  paid 
on  all  classes  of  engines,  imply  that  that  road  in  f.-ict  has  all 
classes  of  engines  in  service? 

Mr.  Carter:  Ft  im))lies  that  all  classes  of  engines  that  are 
in  service,  take  those  rates  on  that  division,  and  if  you  will  pai- 
don  me,  the  bluei)rints  of  this  Canadian  Pacific  Road  show  a 
large  number  of  engines  of  the  weights  named  in  diagraius  1, 
2  and  H,  and  T  am  (piite  sure  that  the  Cana<lian  Pacilic  has 
engines    -perha])s  many  engines,  of  that  w<>iglit,  and  if  .it  ajiy 


392 

time  tliey  run  one  of  them  over  tliis  mountain  division  it  takes 
that  rate.  1  will  say,  however,  tliat  it  is  not  unusual,  wln*n  there 
is  a  specific  differential  on  locomotives,  unsecured  tliroupfh  con- 
tract, for  the  railroads  to  pull  certain  enj>iues  off  of  that  division 
covered  hv  that  differential,  in  order  to  avoid  payment  of  that 
rate.    Pardon  me,  can  I  explain  a  question  that  you  asked? 

Mr.  Sliecan:     Certainly. 

Mr.  Carter:  You  asked  me  with  repaid  to  the  rates  shown 
for  entyineers  and  firemen  on  the  Missouii,  Oklahoma  &  (iulf,  all 
divisions. 

Ml-.  Sheeaii:  Pardon  me,  Mr.  Carter,  l)ut  1  did  not  ask  you 
that  question.  My  question  was,  whether  you  had  any  knowl- 
edge as  to  whether  or  not  a  4-6-0  engine  or  a  4-4-0  engine  was 
used  in  freight  service  on  that  road? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  the  number  of  the  engine? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  will  first  answer  yo'ur  question  and  then  an- 
swer it  my  wa\". 

Mr.  Sheean:     Well,  if  you  i>lease,  answer  mine  first. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  said  yesterday  that  it  would  he  impossible 
for  me  to  remember,  or  anyone  else  to  remember,  the  exact  de- 
tails concerning  any  rate  of  payment  of  the  50,0(X)  rates  we  will 
introduce  here,  and  I  invited  the  railroads  to  appoint  repre- 
sentatives to  meet  with  our  representatives  and  check  the-accu- 
racv  of  anv  statement,  and  1  now  challenge  vou  to  do  that. 

Ml".  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  I  am  not  quarreling  with 
yonr  statement. 

Mr.  Carter:     You  are  discrediting  it? 

Mr.  Sheean:  No,  I  am  trying  to  find  out  whether  this  rate 
which  you  examine  is  actually  in  oi)eration  and  actually  being 
api)lied  to  a  i)articular  engine  or  number  of  engines? 

Mr.  ('arter:     1  say,  yes,  so  far  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well  then,  how  many  engines  does  the  rate 
of  $5.l20  api)ly  to  on  this  Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  (luIf .' 

Mr.  Carter:     1  have  said  I  don't  know  how  many  engines. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  if  you  don't  know  how  many,  how  are 
you  able  to  state  that  you  know  it  ap])lies  to  any  engine  actually 
being  operated? 

Mr.    Charter:     With    your   ]»ermission,    I    will    »'Xplain.     By 


393 

tuniini^-  to   pa^e  1>5  of  the  schedules  of   wa^vs  for   hu-oniotive 
eii^iieei-s,  we  tind  tlie  folknvin^-  as  Exhibit  No.  1  : 

"Missoiiii,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf  Railroad. — Ef^i'ctivc  July    1, 

"All  classes  of  engines,  i)er  oue  hundred  Tuiles  oi-  less,  ex- 
cept Mallets,  $5.20. 

"Mallet  engines,  $(>.15." 

1  liave  a  bluei)rint  here  that  is  not  our  blueprint.  It  is  one 
that  has  been  handed  to  nie  here,  and  T  have  not  marked  it. 
Without  being  able  to  immediately  locate  the  eiigiiH'  here,  I 
will  say  to  you,  that  on  our  blue])rint  we  liave  a  juarginal  note 
showing  the  exact  page,  or  point,  on  the  blueprint  wlicic  that 
engine  is  described.    This  is  not  our  blueprint. 

"Engines  weighing  less  than  80,000  jxtunds  on   drivers." 

The  -1-4-0  engine  is  number  41  and  4.'!.  The  4-()-0  engine  is 
numbered  45,  and  by  referring  to  blue])rint  you  will  see  that 
the  Missouri,  Oklahoma  «S:  (lulf  do  claim  to  have  tliose  engines 
in  service. 

Mr.  Slieean:  In  freight  servi(;e.  That  is  what  1  asked  y(ni 
about.  You  do  not  extend  any  i)assenger  rate,  and  you  do 
extend  a  rate  of  $5.20,  and  I  want  to  know  on  what  division, 
or  where  on  the  Missouri,  Oklahoma  &  Gulf  an  engine  of  that 
type  and  style  was  actually  paying  the  $5.20  rate,  and  was 
being  used  in  freight  service? 

Mr.  Carter:  Before  answ^ering  that  (|uestio!i  I  will  ask 
permission  to  bring  over  hei*e  some  150  blueprints  and  a  large 
number  of  reference  ta})les,  and  I  shall  be  glad  to  go  into  it 
with  you;  but  I  am  going  to  suggest  that  it  will  save  time  if 
you  will  challenge  every  rate,  and  appoint  a  representative  to 
check  the  accuracy  of  every  one. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Mr.  Charter,  1  am  not  (puirrcling  al»out  rates. 
I  am  simi)ly  trying  to  ascertain  from  you  if  you  know  whether 
these  rates  are  schedule  rates,  or  whether  or  not  tliev  are  rates 
actually  being  i)aid  u])ou  actual  oi)erations  on  any  line. 

Mr.  Carter:  1  understood  that  they  are  actually  ))eing  paid 
in  actual  operation,  and  if  they  are  not,  then  the  on<'  who  fille«l 
in  tliese  rates  for  me  Was  mistaken. 


394 

Mr.  Sliccan:  Tlic  man  who  filled  in  the  ral('>  tilled  llieiii  in 
lV(»ni  the  sclicdulcs,  did  he  not  ? 

Mr.  rarter:      1  lliink  so;  I  am  (|uite  sure  lie  did. 

Mr.  Sheean:  .\nd  from  that  he  filled  in  the  rate  which 
would  apply  to  any  engine  of  a  ]>articular  ty])e  o]MM-ated  there- 
un<lerf 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  i)reparin«>-  tiie  tahle  he  had  no  knowledge 
or  infoi-niation  as  to  the  number  of  en.nines  that  were  actually 
at  any  ])aiticular  i)eriod  of  time  paying  any  of  these  rates? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  all  1  wanted,  so  that  there  is  no 
necessity  of  checkiui*'.  If  we  understand  that  these  are  the  rates 
wliicli  would  apply  if  an  engine  of  that  tyi)e  and  style  did 
operate  under  tliese  schedules,  that  is  all  T  want. 

Mr.  Carter:  T  su])pose  you  reco,i>nize  the  fad  that  J  am 
anxious  that  you  should  check. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mi'.  Carter,  what  is  the  probative  effect,  as 
you  understand  it,  of  a  showing  that  an  Illinois  Central  engine, 
if  it  operated  over  a  nu)untain  division  of  the  Canadian  Pacific, 
would  in  that  mountain  territory  get  a  certain  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  do  not  show  that,  nor  do  I  pretend  to  show 
that,  and  1  think  ])ei'ha])s  some  members  of  the  Board  will  under-' 
stand  that  I  have  explained  repeatedly — and  1  think  Mr.  Park 
thoroughlv  undei-stands,  because  he  assented  vesterdav  when  I 
exi)lained — that  I  did  not  attempt  to  state  tliat  that  rate  was  paid 
upon  the  Illinois  Central  engine,  and  I  can  repeat  it  again  if  yoil 
desire  me  to  re})eat  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  tabulation  which  you  say  is  to  follow 
here,  tlier(  will  be  shown  the  rate  which  is  actually  ])aid  u])on 
the  engines  which  are  being  diagrammed  ? 

Ml',  (/artei-:     As  we  understand  it. 

Ml".  Sheean :  And  are  you  able  to  state  whether  or  not  the 
rate  on  this  Xumbei-  1940,  going  ])ack  to  diagram  1,  in  which  you 
show  und<'r  "highest  rate  now  paid  for  locomotives,"  $5.65 — 
are  you  able  to  state*  whether  or  not  the  actual  rate  being  i)aid  on 
that  actual  engine  is  not  $4.40? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  do  not  want  to  make  a  reply  that  wouhl  h?ave 
tlie  record  to  in<licate  that  T  asseuted  to  that  pro])osition.    T  want 


395 

to  state,  and  I  believe,  and  until  checked  as  suggested  by  me  I 
am  going  to  contend  that  the  statement  in  the  diagram  is  tme. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  I  take  it,  then,  that  you  could  not  now 
give  to  us  here  from  any  memorandum  which  you  have  access- 
ible here  and  now,  so  that  you  could  give  it  rapidly,  the  rates 
which  are  actually  being  paid  upon  the  actual  engines  which  are 
diagrammed? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  have  that — ^not  here. 

Mr.  Sheean:  T^nless  you  have  it  so  that  you  can  refer  to 
it  conveniently  I  would  not  take  the  time. 

Mr.  Carter:     I  have  it  very  convenient. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  then,  if  it  is  very  convenient,  I  will  ask 
you  to  refer  to  j'^our  memorandum  and  state  whether  it  is  not 
a  fact  that  Illinois  Central  engine  known  as  number  1940,  and 
shown  in  diagram  1,  is  not  being  pai<l  a  rate  of  $4.40  in  ])assenger 
service  and  $4.90  in  freight  service  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  shall  ask  the  time  of  the  Board  to  liave 
some  one  go  to  our  offices  in  the  Great  Northern  Hotel  and  bring 
a  large  box  of  blue  prints  over  here,  bring  all  of  our  original 
data,  and  then,  rate  by  rate,  check  them  over ;  but  again  I  think, 
in  fairness  to  the  Board,  you  had  better  question  all  of  the  rates. 

Mr.  Sheean:     I  am  not  questioning  them  at  all. 

Mr.  Carter :  Then  check  them  with  our  representative,  and 
allow  the  representatives  of  both  sides  to  report  to  tliis  Board 
which  are  accurate  and  which  are  not  accurate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Before  asking  the  question,  I  inquired 
w^hether  you  could  conveniently  state  and  had  accessible  here 
the  actual  rate  on  the  actual  engine  which  you  diagranmied. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  T  understood  you  to  say  you  conl<l  do  it 

readily  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  you  cannot,  there  cannot  be  any  dispute 
about  that,  Mr.  Carter. 

Mr.  Cartel- :     AVith  the  permission  of  the  Board  we  will  liave 

some  one  go. 

Mr.  Sheean:     I  will  withdraw  the  question  if— 

Mr.  Carter:     Do  not  withdraw  it  on  my  account.    With  the 

permission  of  the  Board  I  will  have  my  assistants  bring  all  the. 

blue  prints,  all  the  supporting  <lata,  all  th<'  cross  refer.'UW's  here, 


3% 

iuul  we  M'ill  be^in  at  tln'  first  rate  and  ^o  through  the  entire 
sclietlule;  but  I  say  to  you,  tliat  if  you  appreciate  the  value  of 
the  time  of  this  Board,  you  will  accept  my  suggestion  and  ap- 
point some  r('i)resentativ<'  to  nuM't  witli  oui"  representatives  and 
cheek  all  of  tliese. 

Mr.  Sheean:  1  am  trying  to  save  time  for  the  Board.  All 
1  will  ask  of  vou — and  1  will  take  vour  statement  for  it,  if  vou 
will  file  as  a  ])art  of  your  testimcny  the  actual  rate  which  is  now 
l)eing  ])aid  as  shown  by  the  sciuMUdc  unch'r  wliich  it  operates — 
all  I  ask  of  you  is  to  give  me  the  late  on  Illinois  Central  engine 
immber  11)40,  the  rate  on  the  Wabash  engine  whicli  is  used  as 
diagram  2,  and  sliow  the  actual  rate  paid  on  each  of  the  engines 
actually  diagrannned.  I  will  permit  that  to  be  filed  without  fur- 
ther cross  examination  on  the  subject  as  a  part  of  your  testi- 
mony. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Chairman,  if  I  may  interject  a  remark 
here,  it  is  our  purpose  to  show^  by  our  next  witness  not  only  the 
information  which  the  gentleman  asks  for,  but  also  the  present 
rate  paid  on  every  engine  in  the  Western  territory,  and  also  the 
requested  rate  that  our  articles  deal  w^ith,  and  I  think  it  will 
give  him  all  the  information  he  is  looking  for. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  it  is  due  me  as  the  witness  to  explain 
my  purpose  in  apparently  evading  direct  answer  to  counsel  for 
the  railroads ;  I  fear  his  ])ur])ose  is  to  have  me  compromise  my- 
self on  one  rate  which  w^ill  throw  a  cloud  over  the  accuracy  of 
all  rates.  Assuming  that  is  the  purpose  of  counsel  for  the  rail- 
roads, I  am  trying  to  avoid  his  accomplishing  that  purpose. 

The  Chairman :  AVell,  the  Board  will  assume  that  you  are 
all  actuated  bv  the  verv  l)est  motives. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  the  rates  extended  in  your  exhibit,  or  the 
part  of  the  exhibit  from  page  16  through  to  page  28,  I  take  it 
that  in  order  to  determine  whether  any  particular  rate  sho^vn 
in  this  column  will,  at  the  end  of  the  day,  or  the  end  of  a  month 
or  any  other  particular  period  of  time,  be  more  or  less  advan- 
tageous than  any  other  rate  there  shown,  you  will  have  to  know 
the  rules  under  which  that  rate  is  applied  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Unque8tional)ly. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  even  though  a  rate  shown  here  as  higli 
as  $5.65,  we  will  say,  if  extended  to  a  schedule  in  which  there 
was  no  allowance  for  ])reparatory  time  or  terminal  delay,  either 


397 

-initial  or  tiiial,  iiiiglit  not  he  as  remunerative  to  the  employe 
working  nnder  it  as  one  who  had  a  much  lower  rate,  expressed 
in  money  hut  ai)i)licable  to  a  basis  in  which  allowances  were  made 
for  these  separate  periods. 

Mr.  Carter:  In  the  two  cases  cited,  the  rate  of  pa\'  for 
operating  a  locomotive  would  he  identical,  but  the  earnings  of 
the  first  would  be  larger  than  the  earnings  of  the  last,  because 
he  would  receive  pay  for  services  that  the  latter  i)erformed  but 
did  not  receive  pay  for. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  think,  Mr.  Carter,  that  you  have  just  re- 
versed the  order  there.  If  we  read  the  question  and  answer, 
I  think  we  will  understand  each  other,  but  you  said  first  and  last 
when  you  meant  last  and  first. 

(Questions  and  answers  repeated  by  the  reporter.) 

Mr.  Carter :  In  re])ly  to  that  I  will  say  that  so  far  as  the 
rate  is  concerned,  the  amount  in  dollars  and  cents  expressed  in 
the  rate  is  a  true  index  to  the  remuneration  of  the  engineer  and 
fireman,  so  far  as  his  services  in  the  operation  of  that  locomo- 
tive is  concerned,  but  on  roads  where  they  receive  pay  for  pre- 
paring their  locomotives,  their  earnings  would  be  increased 
thereby',  because  on  the  one  road  the  railroad  does  not  pay  for 
that  service,  while  on  the  other  road  it  does  so  pay. 

Mr.  Sheean :  What  I  meant,  Mr.  Carter,  was,  briefly,  this, 
that  if  you  had  an  opportunity  to  take  employment,  at  your  own 
option,  on  two  different  lines  of  railroad,  and  you  found  the  rate 
extended  in  the  rate  column  on  one  at  $5.65,  and  the  rate 
extended  on  another  road  at  let  us  say  $4.75,  in  order  to  deter- 
mine what  your  actual  money  compensation  would  be,  you  would 
want  to  see  that  schedule  as  to  wiien  time  begins  and  ends, 
whether  it  provides  for  preparatory  time,  i)aid  sei)arately  from 
the  road  trip,  whether  it  provides  for  initial  and  final  terminal 
delay,  whether  it  provides  that  any  intermediate  switching  on 
the  road  should  or  should  not  be  paid,  and  all  of  these  other 
rules  to  which  Ave  adverted  here,  in  order  to  decide  which  of 
those  two  schedules  would  produce  for  you  the  greatest  amount 
of  money  at  the  end  of  the  month. 

Mr.  Carter:  There  is  no  question  but  what  the  rules  affect 
the  employment  of  the  men,  the  wages  and  the  amount  of  money. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So,  having  a  rate  column,  no  matter  how  wide 
the  spread  of  the  rates  in  that  rate  colunm  may  be,  you  ixe\  no 


398 

true  index  as  to  liow  iimcli  will  be  received  by  the  men  and  liow 
much  will  bo  j^aid  by  the  company  until  you  know  the  underlying 
rules  to  which  that  rate  applies;  namely,  when  the  day  begins 
and  ends,  whether  the  engines  are  taken  at  the  roundhouse  or  at 
the  depot  and  whether  or  not  ])reparatory  time  is  or  is  not 
allowed,  whether  terminal  delay  is  allowed,  and,  if  so,  how  nnicli, 
and  all  of  the  rules  to  which  that  schedule  is  applied? 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  your  ])roposition,  presented  tlirougli  the 
question,  is  accurate.  From  my  information  and  geneial  knowl- 
edge of  the  ]n-actice  1  think  you  will  find  on  those  roads  that  are 
most  liberal  in  rates,  they  are  most  liberal  in  rul^s.  That  is,  if. ' , 
you  find  a  railroad  ])aying  high  rates  you  will  find  a  railroad 
with  liberal  rules.  It  is  generally  the  road  that  does  not  care  to 
])ay  high  rates  that  does  not  care  to  extend  li))eral  rules. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  So  that  the  road  which  has  concurrently  l)oth 
liberal  rates  and  liberal  rules  is  ])aying  out  to  its  men  both  under 
the  rules  and  under  the  rates? 

Mr.  Carter:  There  is  no  question  of  it,  and  for  that  reason 
we  inject  our  saving  clause. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  there  is  no  i)Ossible  way  of  l)riuging 
about  standardization  through  merely  having  a  rate  standard, 
unless  the  base  to  which  that  rate  applies  is  also  standard? 

Mr.  Carter:     The  purpose  of  this  movement — 

Mr.  Sheean:     C^an't  you  answer  the  question? 

(Question  repeated  by  the  reporter.) 

Mr.  Carter:  If  your  (juestion  refers  to  aggregate  earnings, 
L  will  say  no.  If  your  question  i-efers  to  rates,  I  will  say  yes, 
with  your  })ermissiou. 

Ml-.  Sheean:  My  (piestion,  Mr.  Carter,  ])ertained  to  both 
rates  and  rules  and  was  intended  to  cover  the  money  which  the 
railroad  comi)any  ])aid,  and  the  man  received,  for  similar  serv- 
ices or  like  sei-xices,  if  you  please,  on  different  railroads.  In 
order  to  brins:  about  imiformitv,  both  in  what  the  man  receives 
and  what  the  com))any  ]»ays,  there  must  be  a  unifonu  basis  to 
which  the  unifonn  rate  api)lies,  must  there  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  will  say,  in  reply  to  that,  yes.  (Addressing 
Mr.  Stone.)  And  1  hope  you  will  give  me  an  o|)]K)itunity  to 
explain  on  redirect. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  have  enumerated  a  number  of  things  that 
would  have  to  be  considered  in  determining,  or  to  enable  you  to 


i«^ 


399 

decide,  if  yon  liad  this  option  to  work  upon  either  one  of  two 
roads,  and  in  addition  to  the  things  I  mentioned  tliere  are  a  lunn- 
ber  of  other  considerations,  are  tliere  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  The  repntation  of  the  railroad  officials 
for  fairness  has  more  to  do  than  the  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  there  are  very  many  local  conditions, 
therefore,  that  can  only  be  ironed  ont  by  consideration  of  broad, 
ef|nita.ble  princi])les,  rather  than  a  hard  and  fast  rule. 

Mr.  Garter:  Yes.  According  to  how  the  locomotives  are 
kept;  if  they  are  in  a  bad  condition,  it  is  hard  work  for  any  man. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  universal  application  of  a  hard  and  fast 
rule,  not  permitting  of  elasticity  to  meet  ])eculiar  equities,  either 
on  the  part  of  the  men  or  the  railroads,  brings  al.)ont  occasional 
injustice  on  both  sides'? 

Mr.  Carter:  .  Perhaps  occasionally,  but  not  gen«'rally. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Aside  from  these  other  considerations  that 
have  been  mentioned,  all  of  the  rules,  both  as  to  basis  of  over- 
time or  changing  from  one  class  of  service  to  another  en  route, 
([uestions  of  when  and  where  released,  privileges  as  to  turn- 
arounds, use  for  two  or  three  trips,  within  a  single  twenty-four 
hour  period,  all  enter  into  and  atfect  the  amount  to  be  paid  by 
the  railroad  company  and  the  amount  received  by  the  men  under 
the  schedule? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr,  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  turning  for  a  moment  to  the 
provisions  of  Article  2,  in  wdiich  the  rates  of  pay  are  set  out,  I 
note  that,  in  Article  2,  the  minimum  payment,  both  for  engineers 
and  firemen,  is  fixed  for  locomotives  weighing  less  than  80,000 
])Ounds  on  drivers;  while,  under  Article  4,  the  rate  Hxed  in 
switching  service  is  on  engines  weighing  less  than  140,000 
pounds  on  drivers.  Will  you  tell  us,  briefly,  why,  in  switching- 
service,  the  minimum  is  fixed  at  140,000  ]»ounds,  while  on  road 
service  four  dilTerent  classes  of  engines  are  ]trovided  t'oi-  be- 
tween 80,000  pounds  and  140,000  pounds? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  was  believed  by  our  committee,  tlie  com- 
mittee that  drafted  these  propositions,  that  the  ratio  of  labor 
and  responsibility  did  not  increase  the  same — or,  rather,  to 
express  it  more  accurately,  the  responsibility  and  labor  on 
switch  engines  did  not  increase  in  the  same  latio  as  it  <lid  on 
road  engines,  of  the  same  weight  on  drivers.    The  purpose,  as  I 


(00 

un(h'rst()o<l  it,  in  making"  two  rates  on  switch  engines,  was,  first, 
tliat  it  is  more  labor  and  greater  responsibility  to  operate  lar»i:e 
locomotives  in  switeliin^'  service  than  to  oi)erate  small  locomo- 
tives. Tile  second  pnrpose,  as  I  understand  it,  was  to  compen- 
sate the  railroads  for  the  abandomnent  of  the  practice  of  main- 
tainin*;'  Hrst  and  second  class  yards.  At  i)resent,  switching 
service  is  based,  (»n  many  loads,  on  first  and  second  class  yards. 
The  contention  of  the  railioads,  made  at  the  time  that  they  i)aid 
a  less  rate  in  the  so-called  second  class  yards,  was  that  the  work 
in  those  yards  was  lij>hter,  that  they  used  li<>ht<M-  hx'omotives  and 
therefore  there  should  be  a  differential  in  the  rate.  We  contend 
that  by  makini;-  two  intcs,  a  rate  on  an  eni>ine  weighing-  140,000 
l)Ounds  on  drivers  less  than  the  rate  on  switch  engines  wei*ihin^- 
more  tiian  140,000  pounds  on  drivers,  we  accom])lisli  i>ractically 
the  same  i>nr])ose  as  the  first  and  second  class  yards,  for  never, 
if  they  can  helj*  it,  do  railroads  use  the  largest  switch  engines 
in  yards  of  minoi-  importance.  Therefore,  you  will  find,  if  this 
l)roi»osition,  as  applied  to  switch  engines,  is  granted  by  the 
Board,  in  the  yards  now  paying  second  class  rates  you  will  find 
the  locomotives  are  less  than  140,000  j)ounds  on  drivers,  there- 
fore they  will  take  the  low  late.  In  yards  where  they  are  oper- 
ating the  larger  engines,  yon  will  find  generally  now  they  pay 
the  higher  rate;  but  at  any  rate,  the  size  of  the  locomotive  is  a 
true  index  of  the  woi-k  that  locomotive  is  expected  to  ])erform. 
In  this  day  of  highly  efficient  management,  you  would  hardly 
find  a  railroad  official  who  would  place  a  huge  switching  loco- 
motive in  a  yaid  of  minor  im])ortance  and  a  small  switching 
locomotive  in  what  is  now  known  as  a  first  class  yard,  that  is, 
if  they  had  these  two  classes  or  two  weights  of  switching  loco- 
motives in  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Xow,  Mr.  (-arter,  all  1  wanted  to  get  was  why 
you  had  two  different  starting  i^oints;  you  start  at  80,000  ])ounds 
in  road  service  and  carry  it  up  four  separate  ste])s;  you  start 
at  140,000  pounds  in  the  switching  service,  and  anything  below 
140,000  pounds  takes  a  uniform  rate.  What  I  wanted  by  the 
question  was  to  know  why  yon  take  a  different  starting  jioint 
in  the  two  classifications.* 

Mr.  Carter:  Because  in  road  service  the  increase  of  re- 
sponsibility and  labor  is  more  rapid,  requires  more  graduations, 
than  in  the  switchinu-  service.    It  is  scientificallv  correct. 


401 

Mr.  Sliecaii:  I  was  tryiuti:  to  get  the  startini;  j)()iiit,  first- — 
any  tiling-  less  tlian  80,000  ])ouiids  on  drivers  you  start  as  taking 
this  niinimnin  rate,  no  matter  how  small,  even  down  to  the  little 
narrow  gauge  22,000  ])ounds  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir.  We  have  a  special  jn'ovisiou  for 
rates  on  narrow  gauge  locomotives. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  then,  down  to  the  40,000  or  50,000 
pounds,  we  will  say,  the  standard — you  start  there;  these  little 
branch  line  runs;  and  you  start  at  the  hasis  of  pay  to  the  engi- 
neer of  1*4.50  and  to  the  fireman  of  $2.90,  for  anything  below 
80,000  pounds  on  drivers.  That  raises,  does  it  not,  your  start- 
ing j^oint;  it  starts  out  with  a  considerable  step  above  the  ])res- 
ent  minimum  for  the  small  engines? 

Mr.  Carter:  AVe  establish  a  minimum  weight  on  all  loco- 
motives weighing  less  than  80,000  pounds  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  now,  Mr.  Carter,  the  less  than  80,000 
pounds  on  drivers  engines  are  very  largely  the  small  type  of 
engines  used  on  branch  lines  or  on  the  lines  Avdth  lighter  traffic, 
are  they  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Very  largely  comprised  of  those  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  rates  which  are  paid  at  the  present  time, 
the  rates  which  are  paid  for  these  small  engines,  were  fixed  by 
an  arbitration  in  1910,  as  to  the  firemen,  were  they  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir.  The  arbitration  of  1910  sim])ly 
added — 

Mr.  Sheean:  (Interrupting:)  Well,  they  added  fifteen 
cents  to  the  then  rates  and  established  those  rates  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  not.  I  think  the  coni])laint  of  the 
railroads  was  that  we  did  not  adopt  any  standard  oi-  basis  for 
wages. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  in  1910  all  of  these  small 
engines  on  the  branches  of  the  various  roads,  as  a  result  of 
that  arbitration,  were  allowed  fifteen  cents  a  day  more  than 
their  then  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  solely  on  account  of  the  increased  cost 
in  living. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  then,  since  1910,  to  the  present  date, 
has  there  been,  on  these  less  than  8n,000  pounds  on  drivei-  en- 


402 

gines,  any  flian^c  in  the  work  or  the  responsibility  oi-  the  pro- 
ductive efficiency  of  those  engines? 

Mr.  Carter:  T  tliink  it  will  l)e  demonstrated  to  the  satis- 
faction of  counsel  for  the  railroads  that  on  all  railroads  there 
is  a  tendency  to  get  more  work  out  of  that  locomotive  now, 
than  ever  before.  1  think  yon  will  find  that,  on  that  branch, 
the  fireman  can  i)urcliase  less  and  the  engineer  can  purchase 
less  of  the  necessaries  of  life,  with  his  wages  today,  tlian  before 
he  received  that  last  increase. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  yon  are  referring  now,  I 
take  it,  to  the  increased  cost  of  living? 

Mr.  Carter:     That  is  why  that  rate  was  granted. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Was  that  in  the  award,  why  it  was  granted? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  was  in  the  disputes  that  arose  out  of  the 
award.     It  is  an  official  record,  however. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mi'.  Carter,  1  understood  you  yester- 
dav  to  sav  that  this  claim  lor  graduation  and  so  on  was  based 
upon  three  elements,  as  1  followed  you,  increased  labor,  in- 
creased responsibility  and  increased  efficiency,  productive  effi- 
ciency. Now,  as  to  locomotives  weighing  less  than  80,000  pounds 
on  drivers,  has  there  been,  since  1910,  any  change,  either  in 
the  work  or  responsibility  or  increased  productive  efficiency! 

Mr.  Carter:  Without  being  specific,  I  will  say  yes,  in  )e- 
sponsibility  and  in  productive  efficiency. 

Mr.  Siieean:  Have  you  in  mind  any  particular  operation 
on  any  jjarticular  bianch  oi-  road  where  these  light  engines  are 
now  oi)e rated  on  a  different  basis  or  in  a  different  way  than 
they  were  in  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:  At  this  thne  I  am  unable  to  refer  to  any  spe- 
cific instance,  but  1  think  the  general  trend  has  been  to  require 
more  care  of  the  locomotive  engineer  and  fireman  since  tiiis 
"Safety  first"  movement  was  started.  I  think  that  almost 
every  day  engineers  and  firemen  are  (cautioned  above  all  things 
to  observe  the  safety  first  rule.  In  order  to  comply  with  these 
requirements,  the  engineers  and  firemen  are  exerting  themselves, 
so  far  as  responsibilities  are  concerned,  more  now  than  ever. 
I  think  you  will  also  find,  generally  speaking,  that  on  all  loco- 
motives, more  work  is  performed  by  those  locomotives  than  was 
expected  of  them  four  years  ago. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Mr.  Carter,  do  you  mean  that  the  slogan  of 


—  •■» 


408 

** safety  first"  has,  since  1910,  caused  the  eiit»ineers  and  tiremen 
to  change  tlieir  habits  witli  reference  to  safety,  efficiency  and 
desirable  operation? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  it  has  changed  the  employes  and 
changed  the  officials  mncli  more.  Things  that  were  done  four 
years  ago,  before  this  ''safety  first"  movement  started,  are  not 
done  any  longer. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that  is  measurable  in  dollars  and  cents 
to  the  engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  is  measurable,  so  far  as  a  man  receives 
pay  for  his  responsibility.  It  is  not  measurable  so  far  as  the 
amount  of  coal  shoveled  is  concerned,  but  as  it  requires  an 
engineer  or  fireman  to  observe  more  stringent  rules,  so  does  it 
add  to  his  responsibility. 

V 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  rules  designed  to  bring  about  the  result 
of  ''safety  first"  are,  you  think,  legitimately  measurable  in 
increased  compensation  to  the  engineer  and  fireman? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes.  The  installation  of  automatic  signals  is 
one  of  the  greatest  "safety  first"  movements  we  have  ever 
seen ;  and  yet  there  is  nothing  that  has  added  more  to  the  respon- 
sibility of  engine  crews  than  the  installation  of  automatic  signals. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  it  your  judgment,  that  an  engineer  and 
fireman  operating  on  a  railroad  with  automatic  signals  should 
receive  a  higher  wage  than  an  engineer  and  fireman  operating 
on  a  railroad  that  is  not  protected  by  automatic  l)lock  signals! 

Mr.  Carter :     I  would  say  no. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  it  your  judgment,  that  an  engineer  and 
fireman  operating  upon  a  railroad  which  does  not  specialize  on 
"safety  first"  should  receive  a  lower  wage  than  on  one  which 
does  operate  under  that  doctrine? 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  Why  do  you  take  the  base  of  80,000  pounds  as 
a  starter? 

Mr.  Carter :  My  understanding  of  the  purpose  of  the  com- 
mittee was  to  fix  a  mininnmi  weight  and  a  minimum  wage  for 
those  classes  of  locomotives  that  have  practically  disappeared 
from  main  line  service.  It  really  makes  a  low  rate  on  branches 
where  the  density  of  traffic  is  inconsiderable.  It  would  be  the 
same  as  saying  that  the  main  line  rate  does  not  apply  to 
branches,  and  therefore  meet  the  objection  of  the  railroads  to 


404 

})aying  tlie  same  rate  on  minor  brandies.  I  think  you  will  find, 
as  you  stated  a  while  ago,  that  on  these  minor  branches  they 
have  these  locomotives  weighing  80,000  pounds  or  less  on 
drivers,  and  this  minimum  low  rate  applies  on  those  l)ranches. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  start  with  a  minimum  applicable  on 
branches,  at  25  per  cent  higher,  in  the  west,  in  the  firemen's  case, 
than  the  rates  wliicli  Avere  awai^lod  you  for  main  line  service  in 
the  east! 

Mr,  Carter:  1  do  not  think  there  is  any  way  of  comparing 
a  Hat  rate  of  wages  of  $2.90  to  an  increase  of  15  or  30  cents. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Tn  the  east,  I  said. 

Mr.  Carter:     How  is  that! 

Mr.  Sheean :     Please  read  my  question. 

(The  stenographer  read  the  question  as  above  recorded,  as 
follows :) 

*'And  you  start  w^ith  a  minimum  ai)plicable  on  branches,  at 
25  per  cent  higher,  in  the  west,  in  the  firemen's  case,  than  the 
rates  which  were  awarded  you  for  main  line  service  in  the  east  ? " 

Mr.  Carter :  1  did  not  know  that  that  was  a  fact.  If  you 
state  it  as  a  fact,  I  will  accept  it  as  being  a  fact. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  start,  as  a  beginning  point,  which  you 
say  practically  means  branch  line  service  in  the  west,  at  the 
minimum  wage  of  $2.90  for  firemen  in  passenger  service,  do 
you  not! 

Mr.  Carter:     What  page  are  you  reading  from? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Article  2  of  your  submission. 

Mr.  Carter:     Page  2? 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  not  sure  that  this  is  paged  the  same  as 
yours.  Article  2,  the  first  line:  80,000  pounds  on  drivers,  fire- 
men $2.90. 

Mr.  Carter:     That  is  in  passenger  service! 

Mr.  Sheean :     In  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  award  in  the  east,  on  less  than  80,- 
000  pounds,  was  $2.45,  was  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Without  referring  to  it  I  will  accept  your  state- 
ment as  being  accurate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  covered  the  main  line  operations  of 
the  east? 


405 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheeaii :  Where  the  traffic  is  really  much  denser  in  the 
west,  generally,  even  main  line  traffic,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :     If  you  say  so,  I  will  accept  that  as  a  fact. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  not  know  that?  You  have  made  a 
good  many  comparative  figures  here  as  to  trainloads  and  car- 
loads. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find,  on  some  of  the  roads 
entering  Chicago,  that  are  parties  to  this  movement,  as  high  a 
congestion  of  traffic  for  the  number  of  tracks  as  at  any  place 
in  the  world. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Speaking  of  the  territory  as  a  whole,  you 
know,  do  you  not,  that  both  the  carload  and  the  trainload  of  the 
east  is  greater  than  in  the  west! 

Mr.  Carter :     Carload  and  train  load,  I  think  that  is  true. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  starting  with  a  25  per  cent  basis — a 
basis  in  the  west  of  25  per  cent  more  than  the  award  in  the  east, 
you  make  your  first  jnmp  from  80,000  pounds  to  100,000  pounds, 
a  greater  spread  than  the  spread  in  the  east,  do  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  not  compared  it.  I  presume  that  that 
is  correct.  You  are  reading  from  the  Eastern  Award,  I  under- 
stand. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  as  the  weights  on  drivers  increase,  are 
the  contributions  of  the  engineer  and  fireman  just  the  same 
progressively  w^ith  increasing  weights  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  is  a  matter  of  opinion.  I  think  the 
contributions  should  be  credited  to  both  the  engineers  and  fire- 
men. 

Mr.  Sheean:     On  a  percentage  basis? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  might  be  a  matter  of  dispute,  ))ut  we 
are  willing  to  accept  the  ])roposition  that  it  is  e<iual. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  it  is  equal? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  mean  to  say — 
•      Mr.  Sheean:     Pardon  me  until  I  straighten  that  out.     By 
"equal"  do  you  mean  progressing  at  the  same  proi)()rtion  that 
characterizes  them  at  the  starting  point,  or  progressing  by  tlie 
addition  of  like  sums  in  the  ste])s  that  you  take? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not  think  it  w^as  the  pur])ose  to  be  accu- 
rate in  either  of  those  comparisons;  but  I  think  you  will  find 
that  as  a  il'ain  gets  heavier,  as  the  railroads  require  tlie  same 


406 

locomotives  or  otlior  locomotives  to  ])iill  more  tonnage,  l)«)th  the 
engineer  and  the  fireman  contribute  to  the  result,  that  the  labor 
cost  on  tliat  train  has  greatly  diminished,  and  that  the  pro-, 
ductive  efficiency  of  that  train  has  greatly  increased. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  was  just  going  along,  on  your  productive 
ef!iciencv  doctrine,  to  trv  and  ascertain  from  vou  whether  in 
your  judgment  the  eontiil)utions  of  the  two  men  in  the  cab  were 
equal. 

Mr.  Carter:  They  are  not  exactly  the  same.  For  instance, 
a  fireman  on  a  small  locomotive  hauling  a  given  tonnage,  does 
not  ]ierfonn  as  strenuous  labor  as  on  another  locomotive  of  the 
same  mechanical  condition  hauling  tonnage  as  near  its  capacity 
as  the  smaller  locomotive;  while,  on  the  other  hand,  I  think  you 
will  find  that  it  is  increased  responsibility  instead  of  increased 
labor  that  bears  heaviest  on  the  engineer.  Now,  I  have  not 
attempted  to  analyze  just  how  that  should  be  segregated. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  vou  have  not  made  anv  analvsis  or  studv 
as  to  why  these  steps  are  made  at  these  different  breaking 
points,  I  do  not  want  to  cross-examine  you  upon  that;  because, 
Mr.  Carter,  there  is  no  schedule  anywhere  in  the  world,  is  there, 
so  far  as  you  know,  in  which  engineers  are  paid  upon  the  basis 
of  spread  at  the  points  that  are  indicated  here? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  practically  that  is 
true,  regardless  of  how  the  locomotives  are  classified,  and  I 
think  the  next  exhibit  will  demonstrate  that  fact. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Are  you  prepared  to  tell  us  why  the  breaking 
point  was  made  between  80,000  and  100,000  pounds?  Just  what 
is  there  in  productive  efficiency  which  exists  at  100,000  pounds 
and  does  not  exist  at  99,000  pounds? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  suppose  that  if  we  should  apply  that  theory 
with  its  greatest  exactitude,  we  would  have  a  rate  for  every 
pound. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Every  pound  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Every  pound;  but  it  was  considered  inadvis- 
able to  do  so.  In  order  to  reduce  the  rates  to  a  minimum,  we 
grouped  the  engines  in  certain  groups,  in  accordance  with  their 
tractive  power,  or  the  weights  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  that  be  true,  that  it  grows  progressively 
with  each  pound,  then  can  you  explain  why  you  first  go  from 
80,000  pounds  to  100,000  pounds,  with  a  spread  of  20,000  pounds, 


407 

aud  tlie  next  step  is  taken  from  K)0,OCM)  pounds  to  140,000 
pounds,  or  a  ste})  twice  as  lono;  as  tlie  preeedinjj^  one? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  tliink  yon  will  find  that  the  ratio  of  the 
wage  increase  is  less  tlian  the  ratio  of  the  weig:ht  on  drivers 
increase;  and  we  do  not  contend  that  the  labors  and  responsi- 
bilities of  the  engineer  and  fireman  increase  as  rapidly  as  does 
the  tractive  power,  or  as  does  the  productive  efficiency.  There 
has  been  no  attempt  to  double  the  wage  recjuest  witli  the  dou- 
bling- of  the  weight  on  drivers.  It  has  only  been  a  tendency 
to  compensate  the  engineers  and  firemen  in  jnoportion  to  their 
increased  responsibilities,  increased  labors,  and  the  increased 
productive  efficiency. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  does  not  answer  the  question  that  I 
have  intended  to  ask  you,  namely,  why,  starting  with  80,000 
pounds,  you  take  the  first  breaking  point  in  your  scale  as  80,000 
pounds  and  less  than  100,000  pounds,  the  second  one  as  between 
100,000  i)ounds  and  140,000  pounds— why  the  20,000  pounds 
spread  in  the  first  step  and  the  40,000  pounds  si)read  in  the 
second? 

Mr.  ('arter:     You  mean  in  this  proposition? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Yes,  in  your  proposition. 

Mr.  Carter:  There  seems  to  be  a  desire  on  the  i)art  of  the 
engineers  and  firemen  for  some  standardization  of  locomotives, 
so  that  com]iarisons  can  be  made  accurately  l>etween  rates  paid 
by  different  railroads ;  and  I  am  quite  sure  that  the  reason  these 
different  gTou])ings  of  weights  were  adopted,  was  because,  in  the 
east,  the  arbitration  award  for  firemen  fixed  these  weights. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  are  back  of  the  classification  in  the  east 
also.  Assuming  for  the  purposes  of  this  question  that  both  of  us 
agreed  that  a  division  based  on  weights  on  drivers  was  a  proper 
basis  for  measuring  compensation,  if  >()U  suggested  to  me, 
'/AVell,  we  will  start  out  and  make  a  step  of  20,000  ])ounds  as 
the  first  step,  but  the  second  step  will  be  40,000  ])ounds,"  just 
what  reason  would  you  give  for  making  the  second  step  twice  as 
long  as  the  first,  and  then  the  third  step  from  170,000  to  200,000, 
or  a  30,000-pound  break  ? 

'My.  Carter:  I  think  it  was  the  idea  of  the  conunittee  to 
establish  certain  points  at  which  the  rate  would  change,  but  T 
must  confess  that  T  do  not  know  why  those  differences  were  orig- 
inally established. 


408 

Mr.  Slieean:  'I'licie  is  iiotliiii.u  in  t\w  actual  i^racticc  that 
IMits  any  of  these  places  as  breaking-  ])oints  on  fn'ip:ht  enjj:ines, 
is  there? 

Mr.  ('alter:  I  thiiiU  tlw  suh-coinniittee  that  originally 
drafted  this  refjuest  had  in  mind  a  similar  distin<*tion  of  waj>:es 
already  existinir  ))ecause  of  locomotives  of  those  weiii:hts. 

Mr,  Sheean:  So  far  as  the  en,i»ineers  are  concerned,  the 
mininnmi  recjuest  that  they  have  made,  where  they  attempted 
any  jjfrade,  was  what  was  below  a  LM)-inch  cylinder,  was  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Where  was  that? 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  eastern  case.  I  do  not  iix-an  the 
award,  but  what  they  asked  for. 

Mr.  Carter :  1  have  their  request  here ;  but  without  looking 
it  up  T  will  say  that  I  presume  you  are  right.  If  you  are  not 
right,  I  imagine  we  will  both  of  us  be  corrected. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  higher  rate  in  their  recpiest  in  the 
east  was  only  after  the  cylinder  was  above  20  inches  ?  That  was 
tlie  l>reak  ])etween  the  mininnim  and  the  higher  rates. 

Mr.  Carter:     1  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  taking  a  20-inch  cylinder  as  a  starting 
point  in  your  scale  of  rates,  that  would  take  the  weight  ou 
drivers  clear  u])  to  200,000  ])ounds,  or  close  to  it,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  T  think  yon  will  find  that  when  wages  are 
based  on  the  size  of  the  cylinder,  it  is  v(M"y  unscientific,  for  this 
reason — 

Mr.  Sheean:  1  do  not  want  to  go  into  that.  1  am  simply 
trving  to  find  out  whether  a  20-inch  cvlinder  would  not  take  vou 
clear  up  to  about  200,000  ])ounds  weight  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  should  hate  to  answer  that  question,  because 
T  do  not  know.  1  have  not  compared  the  recjuests  of  the  en- 
gineers in  the  eastern  arbitration  award  with  our  request. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  had  some  cylinder  basis  at  one  time,  did 
you  not?  I  am  trying  to  get  at  a  general  idea  of  about  how 
high  in  weights  on  drivers  a  20-inch  cylinder  will  take  you. 

Mr.  Charter:  A  20-inch  cylinder  on  an  engine  built  to  carry 
225,000  i)ounds  of  steam — 

Mr.  Stone:     Whoa! 

Mr.  Carter:  I  beg  your  ymrdon — I  mean  225  pounds  of 
steam — such  an  engine  I  imagine  would  weigh  perhaps  170,000 
pounds  on  drivers. 


409 

Mr.  Sheeaii:     Lot  lis  take  it  at  170,000  pounds  tlieii. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not  know  that  that  is  true.  Tlic  wei^lit 
on  drivers,  however,  wouhl  increase,  with  the  same  cylinder,  in 
])ro])ortion  to  the  increase  in  steam  jiressure.  Now,  yon  nii^lit 
find  a  locomotive  weig'hing'  175,000  ]»onnds  on  drivers,  carryinir 
225  pounds  of  steam  pressure,  yet  having-  tlie  same  size  cyrmder 
as  another  locomotive,  say,  weighing  125,000  jiounds  on  diixci-s, 
and,  roughly  speaking,  carrying-  165  ])0unds  of  steam. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Xow,  Air.  Carter,  all  that  I  wanted  on  tliat 
<piestion  was  whether  or  not  this  20-inch  cylinder  reijuest  of  tiie 
engineers,  that  anything-  ahove  a  20-incli  cylinder  should  take  a 
higher  rate,  would  not  fix  their  starting  i)oint  with  the  lucak 
for  higher  rates  at  somewhere  along  ahout  170,000  |>ounds.  any- 
thing below  that  to  take  this  lower  rate. 

Mr.  Carter :     You  mean  their  request  in  the  east? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Yes. 

Ml".  Carter:  Yon  understand  they  are  not  uuiking  that 
request  here  ? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Oh,  T  am  <|nite  confident  of  that:  1  have  not 
any  doubt  about  that ;  but  I  was  wondering  why,  making  a  i-equest 
which  started  at  170,000  pounds  as  a  minimum,  they  now  start 
down  at  80,000  pounds,  and  by  successive  jumps  scale  u])  to  what 
was  considered  the  minimum  two  or  three  years  ago? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  could  not  answer  that  question  except  to  say 
that  by  changing  the  ))asis  of  rates  of  wages  of  the  engin(H»rs, 
as  requested  by  the  engineers,  to  the  basis  demanded  by  the  rail- 
roads, would  require  a  change  of  the  arrangement  of  some  of 
these  locomotives. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  you  do  not  know  of  any  railroad 
do  you,  that  ever  demanded  that  you  should  fix  as  your  starting 
point  a  minimum  at  80,000  jwunds  on  drivers,  and  j)ay  a  pro- 
gressive scale  from  there  on  up? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  T  do  not  think  that  was  ever  fixed  upon. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  you  have  any  misai)prehension  about  it, 
we  are  perfectly  willing  at  this  time  to  have  you  amend  your 
request  and  start  at  the  170,000  jjonnd  minimum  that  was  cov- 
ered by  the  request  in  the  otlier  case. 

Mr.  (^ai-ter:     (■ould  we  change  it  to  50,000? 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  do  not  think  it  would  make  an>  particulai- 
difference  as  to  what  tlie  Teijuest  -wa.s ;  but    if  yon   waiited   to 


n 


410 

waive  tlio  <?ia(luati<)ii  as  to  8(1,000  |k)Iiiic1s,  and  put  it  up  to  170,000 
pounds,  I  <I(>  not  think  tlici-c  would  he  auy  ohjcctiou  to  your 
doini,^  tliat. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  the  engineers  were  mistaken  in  tlieir 
re<|uest,  as  set  forth  in  your  (piestion.  1  tliink  they  wer<'  eon- 
vineed  of  their  mistake  by  tlie  ariifuments  offered  hy  tlie  laii- 
roads  in  that  ar))itration,  and  1  tliink  tliey  liave  tried  to  rectify 
tlieir  mistake. 

Mr.  Slieean :  Taking"  these  successive  breaks  h''re,  start- 
ing- at  80.000  i)ounds  and  bieakin^-  at  80,000  to  100,000,  and 
from  100,000  to  140,000,  and  from  140,000  to  170,000,  and  from 
170,000  to  200,000  and  so  on,  1  thouulit  ])erha])S  you  had  in  mind 
some  scientific  reason  for  makini>-  the  breaking  points  as  indi- 
cated on  tliis  scale. 

Mr,  Carter:  No,  there  is  no  reason  for  having  it  exactly 
tliat  way.  They  miglit  have  said  less  than  75,000  ])ounds  to 
})0,000  pounds.  They  might  have  so  changed  it,  and  perhaps 
have  had  arguments  to  offer  why  the  change  was  right. 

Mr.  Slieean  :  The  fact  about  it  is,  is  it  not,  that  there  are 
many  eight  wheelers,  some  of  them  weighing  about  75,000  or 
7(),000  ])oun(ls,  and  others  weighing  about  82,000  pounds,  up  to 
as  high  as  87,000  pounds,  and  there  is  no  ])ractical  difference 
either  in  the  work  of  these  men  on  these  engines,  their  respon- 
sibility, or  what  those  eight  wheelers  })roduce,  which  now  are 
taking  a  uniform  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  that  applies  to  all 
di\  isions  of  weights. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Just  at  your  starting  ])oint,  there  are  a  great 
many  eigiit  whcf'leis  that  run  about  75,000  oi-  7b,0(UI  pounds. 
are  there  not  ? 

Ml-.  Carter:      1   presume  so. 

Mr.  Slieean:  And  a  great  many  about  82.000  or  8."],000  or 
84,000,  are  th.ere  not.' 

Mr.  Cart<'r:      I  think  s«). 

Mr.  Slieean  :  And  under  jiresent  operations  on  these  branch 
line  roads,  those  litth'  eight  wheelers,  through  all  those  grada- 
tions of  weight,  are  taking  the  same  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  T  think  yon  will  find  that  the  fact  that  the 
locomotive  is  an  eight  wheel  engine  has  not  been  considered  at 
all  in  drafting  this  proposition. 


411 

Mr.  Sheean  :  Oh,  I  am  not  questioning-  the  pioi)ositiou  now. 
I  am  simply  seeking  to  elicit  whether  you  do  not  know  it  to  be 
a  fact  that  many  eight  wheel  engines  weighing  75,000  or  76,000 
pounds  are  generally  in  use,  and  on  the  same  line  there  are 
many  other  engines  of  the  same  general  type,  weighing  82,000 
to  85,000  pounds,  performing  practically  the  same  kind  of 
service  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     They  would  not  do  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:     They  would  not  do  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  T  think  you  will  find  that  wherever  a  loco- 
motive is  capable  of  producing  a  greater  revenue  because  of 
its  greater  weight,  tliat  revenue  is  j)roduced,  if  it  is  possible 
to  produce  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  think  you  said  these  eight  wheelers  are 
very  largely  on  these  branches  out  here  in  tlie  western  territory/ 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Do  you  know  any  of  these  branches  where 
any  railroad  is  fortunate  enough  to  be  able  to  get  the  tonnage 
to  load  its  branch  engines  up  to  capacity? 

Mr.  Carter:  On  some  branches — and  many  branches,  as 
I  understand  it — the  locomotive  }nills  all  it  can  pull. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  now,  I  would  just  like  to  know  where 
that  particular  branch  is,  if  you  can  name  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  Without  (pialifying  as  an.  expert  on  that 
matter,  I  will  say  that  personal  testimony  will  be  offered  by 
men  who  are  engaged  in  that  particular  class  of  work. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  you  do  know,  Mr.  Carter,  do  you  not, 
that  in  the  eight  wheel  class  of  engines,  on  a  line  that  has  a 
good  many  branches,  say  like  the  Rock  Island,  a  great  many  of 
those  engines  will  weigh  75,000  pounds  and  76,000  i)ounds,  and 
a  great  many  80,000,  82,000,  84,000  and  85,000  pounds,  which 
now  in  operation  are  taking  the  same  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  you  are  mistaken  in  that  statement. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  do  not  intend  it  as  a  statement.  I  wanted 
to  find  out  from  you  whether  it  was  a  fact. 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  you  present  it  as  a  statement  and  ask 
me  if  it  is  true? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  vou  are  mistaken.  I  think  you  will 
find  in  th<'  next  exhibit  there  are  two  or  three  rates  on  eight 


412 

wheel  (Mii^fiiies  falling  within  one  ,i;r<)up,  where  we  arc  now  ask- 
ing for  one  rate  on  tlie  three.  1  think  you  will  find  that  the 
i-ates  in  wages  have  heen  fixed  without  rhyme  or  reason.  You 
will  find  two  locomotives  on  the  same  road — an  eight  wheel  en- 
gine carrying  a  less  weight  than  perhaps  a  ten  wheel  engine, 
when  a  ten  wheel  engine — let  me  repeat  that.  You  will  find  on 
some  roads  an  eight  wheel  engine  with  a  less  weight  on  drivers — 
T  wish  I  had  the  exhi)/it  here.  As  T  picture  it  to  my  mind,  as  I 
have  seen  it  in  the  exhibit,  you  will  find  an  eight  wheel  engine 
drawing  a  higher  rate — I  can't  get  it  right.  You  will  find  a  ten 
Avheel  engine  drawing  a  higher  rate  than  an  eight  wheel  engine, 
while  the  eight  wheel  engine  is  the  heavier  of  the  two  on  drivers. 
Now,  if  that  is  not  inconsistency  in  the  arrangement,  V  don't 
know  what  it  is. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  the  one  thing  I  was  trying 
to  elicit  was  whether  or  not  you  did  have  any  personal  knowledge 
on  the  question,  whether  just  below  the  80,000  and  just  above 
the  80,000  there  were  a  great  many  engines  in  this  western  ter- 
ritory which  now  take  the  same  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  will  say  yes,  and  say  that  applies  to  every 
other  engine  and  every  other  rate  requested.  For  instance,  you 
take  170,000  pounds,  you  will  find  at  the  present  time  there  are 
engines  weighing  160,000  pounds  that  are  paying  the  same  rate 
as  an  engine  weighing  180,000  pounds. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  there  is  not  in  this  presentation,  so  far 
as  you  are  able  to  state,  any  scientific  reason,  or  any  particular 
reason,  why  you  take  140,000  pounds  instead  of  150,000  or 
160,000! 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  the  committee  endeavored  as  best  they 
could  to  fix  a  fair  grouping  of  locomotives,  without  regard  to 
any  scientific  value. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  what  I  meant  by  scientific  value  was, 
whether  on  any  basis  of  fairness,  there  was  any  particular  rea- 
son, on  a  basis  of  fairness,  why  it  should  be  140,000  rather  than 
150,000  pounds? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think,  without  saying  it  to  be  a  fact,  that 
the  engines  on  our  present  rates,  or  the  rates  that  were  present 
at  that  time,  were  graduated  in  some  manner  akin  to  the  grad- 
uation of  rates  on  drivers.    I  think  you  will  find  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:     But  you  are  not  able  to  tell  the  manner  in 


413 

which  tlit'V  were  akin,  whether  by  consanguinity,  matrimony,  af- 
finity, or  otherwise? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  the  purpose  of  the  committee  was  to 
so  divide  the  weights  on  drivers  into  groups,  so  that  it  would  be 
fair  to  everybody. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  you  cannot  give  us  what  were  the  rea- 
sons which  led  to  the  conclusion  of  being  fair  to  anvone  ? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  was  not  on  the  committee. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  can  you  indicate  any  point  in  these 
weights  on  drivers  at  which  the  relative  contributions  of  the  en- 
gineer and  fireman  to  productive  efficiency  undergoes  any 
change  t 

Mr.  Carter:  Pardon,  me,  I  did  not  get  the  question. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Read  it,  Mr.  Leonard,  please? 

(Question  read  by  the  reporter  as  above  recorded.) 

Mr.  Carter:  I  shall  read  the  first  paragraph  of  Exhibit 
Number  3 : 

''Upon  the  presumption  that  the  rates  of  wages  of  En- 
gineers and  Firemen  should  increase  in  proportion  to  the  task 
they  perform,  in  proportion  to  their  earnings  for  their  employ- 
ers, in  proportion  to  their  productive  efficiency,  a  scientific  basis 
of  fixing  the  wages  of  Engineers  and  Firemeli  would  be  the 
Tractive  Power  of  locomotives.  Beginning  with  a  minimum 
Avage  on  the  smaller  locomotives,  a  wage  commensurate  with  all 
conditions  and  duties,  and  adding  thereto  as  the  tractive  power 
of  the  locomotive  increases,  should  be  fair  to  both  the  Railroads 
and  the  Enginemen. " 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  Mr.  Carter — will  you  read  the  last  ques- 
tion, Mr.  Leonard,  please? 

(Question  read  by  the  reporter  as  follows: 

"Now,  can  you  indicate  any  point  in  these  weights  on 
drivers  at  which  the  relative  contributions  of  the  engineers  and 
firemen  to  productive  efficiency  undergoes  any  change?") 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  that  the  increased  tractive  power  is 
a  true  index  to  the  increased  productive  efficiency. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  does  that  go  along  step  by  step  of  the 
same  things  as  between  the  engineer  and  the  fireman,  throntrli 
th^  entire  schedule? 


414 

Mr.  CaittT:  Well,  1  will  confess  to  you  that  1  lunc  not 
iriveii  that  matter  any  tlioii,a:ht. 

Mr.  Sliooan:     Xono  wliatcvor? 

Mr.  Carter:  L  mean  to  say  tliat  I  have  not  attempted  to 
make  any  comparison  as  to  the  ditTerence  in  degree  of  increase 
in  productive  efficiency  of  the  engineer  and  fireman. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Well,  it  is  based  entii'ely  in  tliis  scale  upon 
increasing  tractive  power? 

Mr.  Carter:     So  far  as  i)roductive  efficiency,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  then,  why  in  your  request  for  electric 
service,  on  the  next  page,  does  the  increase  of  the  motorman 
])rogress  from  $4.50  to  $5.60,  while  that  of  the  fireman  remains 
stationary  all  the  way  through  at  $3.35? 

Mr.  Carter:  You  will  have  to  ask  the  committee  that  fixed 
that  standard  rate.    I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Your  thought  is  that  it  should  go  progress- 
ively on  a  tractive  basis  and  not  by  the  conti'ibution  of  their 
labor  to  the  result  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  1  had  been  fixing  the  rates  and  basing  the 
rates  on  j)roductive  efficiency  I  would  say  the  same  rate  in 
steam  service  should  api)ly  to  electric  service,  and  I  think  I 
stated  that  several  times  while  that  proposition  was  being  dis- 
cussed. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  basing  it  entirely  on  productive  effi- 
ciency, you  would  not,  Mr.  Carter,  make  any  differential  as 
between  a  fireman  who  turned  an  oil  spigot  and  fired  by  oil  and 
a  man  who  shoveled  coal  into  a  firebox? 

Mr.  Carter:     So  far  as  responsibility — 

Mr.  Sheean:  1  am  talking  about  their  wages.  Y^'ou  would 
nuike  no  ditTerence  in  wages  between  a  man  who  turned  an  oil 
spigot  and  a  man  who  shoveled  coal? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  would  say  that  there  should  be  no  differ- 
ence, because  I  think  yoii  will  liiid  in  i)ractice  that  while  the 
actual  labor — the  ])hysical  exertions  of  the  fireman  on  an  oil- 
buining  engine  is  inconsiderable,  1  think  there  are  some  other 
duties  added  which  would  entitle  him  to  special  recognition, 
particularly  so  when  it  is  shown  that  when  a  railroad  changes 
from  coal  to  oil  they  increase  the  earnings  for  the  railroad  and 
decrease  the  labor  cost  per  ton  mile. 

Mr,  Sheean:     Well,  by  the  like  reasoning,  Mr.  Carter,  would 


415 

you  leacli  tlic  couclusiou  tliat  whetlu^i-  a  ('oal-l)iiiiiiii<i^  engine 
was  automatically  stoked  or  liand  stoked,  it  would  make  no 
ditfereuee  in  the  pay  of  the  fireman? 

Mr.  Carter:  AVhile  the  proposition  makes  no  distinction,  I 
think  as  this  case  develo])s  we  shall  agree  that  where  a  ])erfect 
working-  mechanical  stoker  is  in  service  on  a  locomotive,  even 
though  it  falls  within  the  w^eights  prescribed  in  this  pro])osi- 
tion,  we  would  not  expect  two  firemen  to  be  em])loyed, 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  you  would  expect  a  fireman  on  an  auto- 
matically stoked  engine  to  receive  the  same  progressive  ad- 
vances in  pay,  based  on  weights  on  drivers,  on  engines  weighing 
less  than  185,000  ])ounds,  as  the  fireman  would  ivceive  who.  })y 
his  muscle,  shoveled  the  coal  into  the  firebox '! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then,  I  take  it,  that  even  on  oil-ljuiiiing 
engines,  where  nothing  but  oil  was  ever  consumed,  that  you 
make  no  distinction  in  the  jDay  of  the  firemen  between  that  man 
and  the  one  who  shovels  the  coal? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So,  also,  the  installation  of  any  superheater 
arrangement  that  lessened  the  shoveling  of  coal  would  not  in 
your  judgment — if  it  did  lessen  the  shoveling  of  the  coal,  would 
not  in  your  judgment  affect  in  any  manner  the  comi)ensation 
which  the  fireman  should  receive  under  your  proposition? 

Mr.  Carter :  Without  agreeing  to  your  statement  presented 
in  your  former  question,  that  it  does  decrease  the  shoveling  of 
the  coal,  my  answer  is  that  the  rate  should  be  the  same. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Any  device,  then,  Mr.  Carter,  which  lessens 
in  any  way  the  physical  labor  which  the  fireman  now  performs 
would  not  receive  any  recognition  or  change  in  any  wax  the  l)asis 
or  the  rates  of  pay  embodied  in  this  request? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  because  I  think  it  will  be  found  that 
even  where  electricity  is  substituted  for  steam  that  the  pro- 
ductive efficiencv  is  greatlv  increased,  and  even  at  the  same 
rates  of  pay  the  labor  costs  are  greatly  decreased,  that  it  would 
be  a  reversal  of  what  is  considered  fair  economic  law  for  the 
employer  to  take  advantage  of  the  machine  that  brings  in 
greater  returns  to  decrease  the  wages  of  the  enq)loye  who  oper- 
ates that  machine.  I  know  there  is  a  tendency  to  ^^i  work 
performed  as  low  as  it  is  possible,  and  I  am  <iuite  sure  that  liie 


416 

rnihoads  wouM  (Iciiiaiid  thai  a  locoiiiolivc  (Mii::iiRH'r  who  was 
rclicxM'fl  of  tlic  responsibility  of  kc'oi)iiig"  water  in  liis  boiler — 
seoiiit''  tbat  the  boiler  does  not  explode,  if  you  lik(» — should 
receive  less  wa^'es  than,  that  same  en<'iueer  did  on  that  same 
train  when  operating  a  locomotive  i)ropelled  by  steam.  But  we 
disa.yree  with  the  lailroads  in  any  such  contention.  We  con- 
tend that  if  an  en«:ineer  and  Hrenuin  are  employed  on  a  certain 
division  in  the  ]ierfoiinance  of  a  certain  character  of  work,  the 
transportation  of  tons  of  freii^ht,  that  if  some  inventive  genius 
finds  that  more  tons  of  fi'ei.i»lit  can  be  transported  over  the  same 
division,  witli  the  same  engine  crew,  by  substituting  an  electric 
locomotive  for  a  steam  locomotive,  we  dissent  to  the  school  of 
econom>  thai  would  pciinit  the  i-ailroads  to  reduce  the  wages 
of  that  eiiiiineei  and  lireman. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  Assuming  that  the  wages  which  an  engineer 
and  lireman  aie  drawing  is  a  fair  and  ])roper  wage,  and  assum- 
ing that  this  same  inventive  genius  ])roduces  greater  productive 
elticiency — doubles  the  ])r()ductive  efficiency,  without  im])osing 
ad<litional  labor  or  responsibility  upon  either  engineer  or  tire- 
man,  in  such  event,  would  you  still  claim  that  the  engineer  and 
tireman  were  entitled  to  an  increase  in  their  rates  of  ])ay  merely 
because  of  the  increased  ])roductive  efficiency? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  contend  (as  do  ])ractically  all  employers) 
that  labor  cost  is  an  im])ortant  factor  in  the  cost  of  any  ]U'oduc- 
tion,  and  that  the  American  lailroads  should  not  take  advantage 
of  any  electric  locomotive  to  ])i-otit  at  the  ex])ense  of  tlie  engineer 
and  tireman.  To  that  extent,  1  believe  that  there  should  be  a 
profit  sharing. 

Ml-.  Sheean:  And  are  yon  willing  to  place  your  wages  at 
this  time  u])on  a  ])rofit  sharing  basis  with  the  railroad  com- 
panies ? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  think  if  we  would  have  juurisdiction  over 
the  manner  in  which  the  profits  are  disl)ursed  we  would  agree 
to  that. 

Mi-.  Sheean:  Now,  in  case  the  tonnage  of  a  locomotive  is 
increased  by  a  change  in  grade  merely — 

Mr.  Carter:     I  did  not  get  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  ease  the  tonnage  is  increased  merely  by 
the  elimination  of  the  grade,  and  thereby  the  tonnage  of  that 
train  and  the  ])i-oductive  effici<'ucy  of  the  crew  wliich  hauls  it  is 


417 

douMcfl,  oil  your  theory  the  train  crews  which  continue  re.nu- 
larly  to  haul  it  are  entith'd  to  sliare  in  that  increased  i)rodnc- 
tivity  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir.  1  tliink  that  the  comparisons  hetwecn 
])rodnctivity  sliould  be  conii)arison.s  under  the  same  conditions. 
T  will  ag'ree  witli  you  that  the  productivity  of  a  certain  locomo- 
tive in  very  inferior  mechanical  condition  is  much  less  than  the 
same  locomotive  or  the  same  type  of  locomotive  that  is  in  perfect 
mechanical  condition.  T  do  not  think  it  would  he  fair  to  the  rail- 
road or  fair  to  the  employe  to  vary  the  rates  accoidin<j:  to  the 
mechanical  condition  of  the  locomotive,  althouuh  the  ])roductive 
efficiency  of  that  locomotive  wall  vary. 

Mr.  Sheean:  My  qnestion,  Mr.  Carter,  was  not  on  tli<' 
chanj^e  in  the  locomotive.  I  said  in  case  grades  and  curves  on  a 
particular  division  of  a  railroad  were  eliminated,  so  that  the 
engineer  and  tireman  were  able  to  handle  twice  the  tonnage  over 
that  division  that  they  were  before,  do  yon  consider-  they  are 
enti,tled  to  a  part  of  the  additional  productivity  which  is  brought 
abont  by  thus  straightening  the  road  and  reducing  the  curves? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  under  the  theory  of  protit  sharing. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  under  the  theory  on  which  this  ])ro- 
posal  is  based,  of  grading  rates  of  pay  on  the  basis  of  weights  on 
drivers. 

Mr.  Carter:  In  the  second  line  of  the  paragraph  we  state 
that : 

''This  basis  is  upon  the  assumption  that  the  wages  shall 
increase  in  proportion  to  their  earnings  for  their  employers." 

That  means,  if  on  any  grade  or  piece  of  track,  by  the  intro- 
duction of  a  locomotive,  they  increase  the  i)rofits,  1  think  tiie 
employe  should  be  recognized. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Even  though  that  be  accompanied  by  dis- 
tinctly relieving  emi)loyes  from  previous  manual  lal)or — manual 
labor  which  they  had  previously  ])erformed  under  prior  -con- 
ditions? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  do  not  think  you  will  tind  it  that  way. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Assuming  that  were  possible;  assuming  that 
we  might  agree  u])on  the  question  that  the  fireman  on  a  heavy 
locomotive  steam  engine  was  not  either  doing  the  work  or  assum- 
ing the  res|)onsibility  of  a  second  man  on  an  electric  motor  car. 


418 

and  assiiniing  that  tlial  electric  motor  car  hauled  a  lar<;er  ton- 
nage, and  that  we  could  agree  upon  the  fact  tliat  the  second  man 
or  fireman  on  that  electric  locomotive  was  not  working  as  hard  as 
the  one  who  was  on  tiic  steam  locomotive  (not  connnitting  you 
to  any  of  these  things,  hut  assuming  you  agreed  on  all  these), 
nevertheless  you  would  claim  an  increased  compensation  to  the 
man  on  the  electric  motor  hecause  of  his  ])r()ducing  greater 
returns? 

Mr.  ('arter:     1  do  not  think  we  do  that. 
Mr.  Sheean:     Xo,  hut    1   understand  you  to  say  this  is  in 
error  because  it  doesn't  do  that,  so  far  as  you  are  ])ersonally 
concerned. 

Mr.  Carter:     On  what  ])oint? 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  not  making  i)rogTessive  increase  even  as 
to  the  second  man  on  an  electric  locomotive  as  tractive  power 
increased. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not  think  I  have  said  that  the  rate  on 
wages  should  increase  in  the  same  ratio  as  his  productivity. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Not  in  the  same  ratio  /  I  did  not  intend  to 
commit  you  to  that,  hut  that  wages  should  increase  as  the  tract- 
ive power  increases,  ii'respective  of  the  consideration  of  tlie 
work  performed  l)y  the  employe  on  that  engine! 

Mr.  Carter:  I  tliink  you  will  find  that  as  the  tractive  power 
increases  there  is  a  general  tendency  to  have  increased  respon- 
sibilities at  least,  if  not  increased  labor,  on  any  class  of  engine. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Just  how  <h)es  this  doctrine  of  increased  pro- 
<luctive  efficiency  apply  to  the  recjuest  for  increasing  the  rate  of 
pay  of  men  deadheading  on  company's  business? 

Mr.  Carter:      1  don't  think  it  applies. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  on  some  other  theorv  that  you  make 
that  request? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  1  think  so.  Would  you  permit  me  to 
explain  one  of  my  answers  just  now  ? 

Mr.  Sheean  :     Certainly,  go  ahead,  Mr.  Carter. 

Mr.  Carter:  A  (juestion  was  asked  something  like  this, 
that  if  on  account  of  reduction  of  grades  or  straightening  of 
cui-ves  there  was  less  labor  performed,  would  the  theory  here 
advanced  apply?  T  will  confess  that  if  they  cut  down  the  grade 
and  straightened  the  curves  and  were  content  to  pull  the  same 
tonnage,  that  it  would  not  ajiply.     But  I  think  you  will  find  in 


419 

«verv  instance  Avliere  tliev  have  cut  tlie  grade  it  has  l)een  solely 
for  the  i)urpose  of  adding  to  the  tonnage,  and  T  tiiink  yon  will 
find  that  with  the  increased  tonnage  as  mncli  coal  is  coiisniiKMl 
transporting  a  train  as  before. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Tliat  is  all,  Mr.  Carter. 

RE-DIR  EOT  EX  A  M 1 N  A  T 1  ON. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  Mr.  Carter,  turn  to  page  lU,  diagram  1, 
please;  1  think  you  can  follow  more  closely  if  you  refer  to  the 
diagram.  You  were  asked  if  the  rates  here  shown  as  the  high- 
est rates  paid  for  the  class  of  engine  tyi)ified,  were  actually- 
paid  ! 

Mr.  Carter:  That  was  my  understanding  of  the  ))urpose 
of  the  diagram. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  T  believe  you  further  exi)lained  that  you 
had  later  learned  that  the  particular  type  of  engine  here  shown 
was  not  in  use  on  the  division  of  the  Canadian  Pacific  Railroad 
where  these  rates  apply. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  was  informed,  by  the  chairman  of  the  engi- 
neers' general  committee  on  that  road,  that  these  locomotives 
were  not  in  service  on  the  mountain  districts  of  tiie  (^anadian 
Pacific  Railroad,  west  of  Ft.  William. 

Mr.  Phillips:  About  the  same  question  was  asked  as  to 
diagram  2.  If  those  engines  are  not  there,  these  figures  are 
incorrect  to  that  extent,  as  to  that  engine,  as  you  have  exi)lained? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  won't  confess  that.  I  \nll  say  tliey  are 
inapplicable. 

Mr.  Phinii)s:  Perlia])s  "inapplicable"  is  the  better  word. 
But  if  the  engine  is  owned  l)y  the  Canadian  Pacific  Railroad 
and  runs  over  that  territory,  that  is  the  rate  that  ai)])lies:^ 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  About  the  same  thing  was  asked  as  to  dia- 
grams 3  and  4.  Do  you  know^  whether  engines  as  typified  in 
diagrams  3  and  4,  or  ratlier  engines  weighing  lOO.OOO  to  14(),(i0() 
pounds  on  drivers,  as  shown  in  diagram  3 ;  and  engines  weigh- 
ing 140,000  to  170,000  pounds  on  drivers,  as  shown  in  diagram  4, 
are  in  use  on  that  i)articular  division? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  thought  they  were. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  explained  (piite  clearly,  Mr. 
Carter;  but  counsel  for  the  railroads  asked  the  (piestion  in  a 


420 

good  many  different  forms,  if  the  rates  shown  are  applied  to 
the  particnlar  type  of  engine  indicated  l)y  tlie  diagram  or,  in 
every  instance  named,  as  being  specifically  owned  by  some  rail- 
road; and  I  Ix'lieve  you  exi)lained  that  they  did  not,  that  the 
rates  shown  are  actually  applied,  with  the  exceptions  you  noted 
on  engines  within  the  weights  here  specified  on  some  railroad 
within  this  territory? 

Mr.  Carter:  [  perhaps  can  make  myself  better  understood 
by  saying  that  1  ix'rsonally  made  these  drawings;  I  personally 
drafted  the  form  that  appears  in  any  one  of  these  diagrams, 
leaving  blank  s])aces  for  the  insertion  of  the  rate,  the  highest 
rate  now  paid,  by  others.  In  fact,  the  form  was  set  in  type  be- 
fore any  attem])t  was  made  to  insert  these  highest  rates.  Now, 
that  being  the  fact,  you  may  rest  assured  that  when  the  text 
matter  and  the  diagrams  were  prepared,  I  didn't  even  know 
that  there  were  higher  rates  or  as  high;  it  required  a  subse- 
quent investigation  to  find  those  rates,  and  when  those  rates 
were  put  in  there,  they  had  reference  to  the  black  type  appear- 
ing above  those  rates,  **  Highest  rates  now  paid  for  locomotives 
weighing  140,000  pounds  and  less  than  170,000  pounds  on 
drivers,"  and  had  no  reference  to  the  Pacific  type  in  service  on 
the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul.  The  diagram  did,  however, 
graphically  set  forth  the  apparent  increase  in  tractive  power 
of  the  locomotive  weighing  as  provided  in  that  group,  on  drivers, 
and  it  did  set  forth,  in  graphic  manner,  the  wheel  arrangement 
of  the  Pacific  type  of  engine,  its  proportionate  length  and  other 
information;  but  there  is  no  attempt  in  the  filling  in  of  these 
highest  rates  now  paid,  to  say  that  it  applied  to  that  particular 
locomotive. 

Mr.  Philli})s  :  Then,  in  other  words,  Mr.  Carter,  taking  dia- 
gram 3  for  example,  which  would  be  a  2-6-0  engine,  I  believe, 
according  to  Whyte's  Table,  or  a  ten  wheel  engine;  now"  you  give 
the  weight  of  that  engine  as  129,200  i)ouiids  on  drivers.  Below 
you  quote,  in  the  last  two  lines,  the  highest  rate  for  locomotives 
weighing  100,000  and  less  than  140,000  pounds  on  drivers.  Now, 
it  wouhl  not  matter  whether  it  was  a  2-6-0,  a  ten  wheeler,  a  4-6-2, 
Pacific  Type,  2-8-0,  Consolidation,  or  any  other  combination  of 
wheel  or  wheel  arrangement  or  engine,  so  long  as  the  engine 
weighed  within  those  limits,  and  it  would  not  matter  on  what 
railroad  this  bigger  engine  was  used,  whether  a  road  here  named". 


421 

or  some  other  road;  tlie  rate  here  is  in  etYect,  regardless  of  the 
name  of  the  railroad  used  here,  or  the  diagram  of  the  type  of 
locomotive  presented. 

Mr.  Carter :     That  was  the  purpose  of  the  exhibit. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  so  understood  you  in  your  direct  testimony. 
I  wanted  to  have  that  made  clear.  Mr.  Carter,  vou  were  asked 
by  counsel  for  the  railroads  if  standardization  could  be  brought 
about  by  making  the  rates  standard  on  all  these  railroads  in  the 
western  territory,  and  not  making  the  rules  standard.  Now, 
if  the  rates  were  all  made  the  same,  would  not  all  of  the  roads 
be  standard,  at  least  as  to  the  rates  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir.  May  I  explain  why  rules  were  not 
standardized  ? 

Mr.  Phillips  :  I  will  be  very  glad  if  you  will  explain  as  fully 
as  you  wish. 

Mr.  Carter:  In  the  early  discussions  that  led  to  the  fornm- 
lation  of  this  proposition,  there  were  many  who  advocated  the 
standardization  of  all  rates  and  all  rules.  I  think  it  was  finally 
determined  upon  that  if  we  succeeded,  at  one  time,  in  standard- 
izing the  rates,  we  wauld  do  well,  and  that  if  we  would  try  to 
standardize  everything,  it  would  be  a  harder  task  to  accomplish 
our  purpose.  Without  consulting  the  committee,  without  know- 
ing its  desire,  I  will  say — I  will  assume  the  authority  to  say 
that  if  it  is  the  desire  of  the  railroads,  at  the  expiration  of  this 
submission  as  to  rates,  we  M'ill  be  glad  to  take  up  the  standard- 
ization of  rules. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  your  judgment  then,  by  standardizing 
rates,  a  great  step  will  have  been  taken  toward  standardization. 

Mr.  Carter  We  thought  that  that  step  was  a])out  as  huge 
a  task  as  we  cared  to  undertake  at  one  time. 

Mr.  Phillips.  Do  you  believe,  if  the  rates  on  all  these  rail- 
roads were  made  uniform,  it  would  have  a  tendency  to  make  the 
variations  greater  than  at  present? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  indeed.  I  think  an  award  as  good  as  we 
anticipate  would  wipe  out  many  of  these  variations  against 
which  the  complaint  seems  now  to  be  made  by  the  railroads. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  were  asked,  Mr.  Carter,  why  80,000 
pounds  was  used  or  adopted  as  the  minimum,  in  road  service, 
foT  :fixing  the  lowest  rate  in  road  service,  and  why  140,000 
pounds  was  used  in  fixing  the  minimum  in  yard  service.     You 


422 

explaiiunl,  to  a  considerable  extent,  that  it  would,  in  a  measure, 
so  far  as  the  ^s witch  engines  are  concerned,  overcome  tlie  differ- 
ence between  first  and  second  class  yards. 

^fr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s  :  Now,  from  that  I  understand  that  ordinarily 
the  smaller  tyjie  of  engine  is  used  in  the  second  class  yard. 

Mr.  Carter:     If  they  are  not,  they  should  be. 

Ml-.  Phillips:  Is  there  any  particular  physical  difference 
between  the  work  of  switching-  cars  in  a  large  yard  and  a  small 
yard  f 

Mr.  Carter :  ( )nly  as  to  the  congestion  of  traffic  and  the 
weight  of  the  body  of  cars  moved  backwards  and  forwards.  A 
similar  matter. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  in  your  opinion,  where  the  yard  is 
small  and  the  work  light,  and  no  congestion  likely,  a  small  type 
of  engine  could  do  that  work  and  would  carry  the  smaller  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  quite  sure  they  would  do  tliat  work.  I 
think  that  tlie  economic  policy  of  the  management  would  re- 
quire it. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  understood  you  to  say  that  the  reason  for 
making  a  differential  at  a  lower  rate,  and  making  more  differ- 
entials in  the  road  service,  was  because  of  the  increase  of  re- 
sponsibility and  labor  in  road  service? 

Mr.  Carter:  Oh.  I  think  there  is  a  vastly  more  rapid  in- 
crease in  road  service  than  in  yard  service. 

Mr.  Phillips:     It  is  not  so  recognizable  in  yard  service? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  that  is  why  so  many  different  rates  of 
pay  are  not  sought  for  the  yard  service? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli]>s:  I  believe,  from  one  of  your  answers,  Mr. 
Carter,  the  inference  was  drawn  that  the  small  engine,  this 
80,()()()  pound  engine,  was  practically  confined  absolutely  to 
branch  line  work.  My  friend  asked  numerous  questions  along 
that  line.  Now,  in  the  pj-oposition  submitted,  would  an  engine 
carry  a  higher  rate,  if  used  on  the  main  line  than  is  asked  on  a 
branch  line  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     As  a  matter  of  fact,  aren't  those  engines 


423 

used  as  iniicli  on  tlio  iiiaiii  line  as  on  the  ])i-ancli  lin<',  in  your 
judgment! 

Mr.  Carter :  I  tliink  that  a  few  years  ago — if  we  may  con- 
sider twenty  years  as  l)eing  a  few  years — ahnost  a  majority  of 
all  main  hue  movements  M'ere  made  with  eiglit  whcol  engines, 
"with  the  ))ossible  excejjtion  of  some  roads  tliat  were  more  anx- 
ious to  increase  tiieir  productive  efficiency,  and  I  tliink  you  will 
find  tliat  a  vast  majority  of  the  eiglit  wheel  engines  formerly 
in  use  are  now  no  longer  in  use  at  all.  F  think  yon  will  find 
that  they  are  rapidly  being  supplanted  by  much  larger  *^ngines, 
both  in  freight  and  ])assenger  service;  but  there  remain  these 
small  engines,  and  they  fulfill  a  specific  purpose,  or  general 
purpose,  T  might  say,  in  handling  liglit  traffic,  whether  it  is  on 
the  main  line  or  a  branch  line.  Now,  to  show  the  scientific 
basis  of  our  proposition,  automatically  the  railroads  would  be 
enabled  to  transport  that  light  traffic,  either  on  main  line  or 
branch  line,  by  using  this  lighter  engine. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  it  not  true  that  a  considera))le  ])ortion 
of  some  of  the  railroads  is  designated  as  "branch  line"? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  have  heard,  during  these  negotiations,  state- 
ments made  that  some  railroads  claim  as  branch  lines,  a  large 
majority  of  the  miles  of  the  i-oad.  Now,  I  do  not  know  that 
to  be  true. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  it  not  true  that  on  such  railroads,  if  Mallet 
engines  were  used,  they  would  pay  the  same  rate  there,  as 
though  used  on  tlie  main  line? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Ts  it  not  true  that  Mallet  engines  arc  used 
on  some  of  these  so-called  branch  lines  f 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  quite  sure  that  if  there  was  a  train  to  be 
pulled,  that  was  heavy  enough  to  justify  the  use  of  a  Mallet, 
and  a  Mallet  was  available,  that  the  general  policy  of  the  rail- 
road would  refjuire  the  use  of  that  Mallet. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  you  made  one  statement  regard- 
ing the  payment  of  higher  lates  on  an  eiglit  wheel  engine,  or  a 
small  engine,  than  are  i)aid  liy  some  roads  on  a  ten  wheel  engine, 
weighing  less  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Carter :     T  did  not  mean  it  that  way. 

Mr.  Pliillii)s:     Perhaps  that  is  not  the  way  yon  stated  it. 

Mr.  (Uirter:     1  «aid  that  there  miyht  be  a  higher  rate  on  a 


424 

ten  wluH'l  iMiiriiic  than  on  an  ci.nlit  wlu*el  en^^inc*,  when  the  rate 
on  drivers  mii^lit  Ix'  loss,  and  I  want  to  explain  why  1  seem  to 
be  so  eonfnsed  in  expressing:  this.  1  have  in  mind  eertain  infor- 
mation that  will  1)0  ])rosonted  in  the  next  exhibit,  and  in  the  prep- 
aration of  that  exhibit,  [  notieed  this  inconsistency,  and  T  could 
explain  that  so  much  bettor  if  I  had  the  exhibit. 

'i'iie  (Miairman:     AVo  will  take  a  recess  nntil  2:30  P.  M. 

( AVherenixni,  at  12:35  P.  M.  a  recess  was  taken  until  2:30 
o'<-l(.ck  V.  M.) 

After  Recess. 

The  Chairman:     Vou  may  })roceed,  gentlemen. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Chairman,  it  is  not  my  desire  to  prolong 
these  examinations  on  this  ])articular  exhibit  unless  the  other 
side  desire  to  ask  further  questions  upon  the  exhibit.  If  not,  we 
will  excuse  the  witness  without  any  further  cross-examination. 

Mr.  Sheean :     We  are  through  with  him. 

The  Chairman:     (^all  your  next  witness. 

SAMUEL  T.  STE1NBERGP:R  was  called  as  a  witness,  and 
having  been  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.   I*liilli))s:     Please  give  your  full  name. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Samuel  T.  Stoinberger. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:     AVliat  is  your  occupation? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  I  am  employed  as  a  clerk  in  the  Urand 
l..odge  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Engine- 
men. 

Mr.  Phillips:     How  long  have  you  be(!U  so  employed? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     About  ten  years. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Prior  to  that  time  were  you  employed  as  an 
engineer  or  fireman? 

Mr.  Steinbergei':     Yes,  as  both. 

Mr.  Phillips :  In  your  ca])acity  as  clerk  in  the  (irand  Lodge 
office  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Engine- 
men  have  you  had  occasion  to  prepare  some  tables  or  data  for 
the  purpose  of  showing  the  rates  of  pay  for  engineers  and  fire- 
men on  the  railroads  ])articipating  in  this  arbitration? 

Mr.  Steinl)erger :     Yes. 


425 

Mr.  PliilH|)8:  I  linvc  licie  a  voIuhr'  I'lititlcd  "Kates  of 
Waft-es  Ke(|ueste(l  ('om])ared  witli  AVagcs  in  EttVct,  presented 
by  the  Brotlierhood  of  Locomotive  En<>ineers  and  tlie  I:Ji-()ther- 
hood  of  Jjoconiotive  Firemen  and  Rnginemen."  I  )(>  you  identify 
this  as  tlie  preparation  yon  have  made? 

^Ir.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Pliilli])s:  Tf  tlie  Board  i)lease,  we  desiie  to  introdnee 
this  volnme  as  Exhibit  No.  4. 

The  Chairman:     V^ery  well. 

(The  i)am])hlet  so  identified  was  received  in  evidence  and 
marked  "Employes'  Exhibit  4,  December  4,  1914.") 

Mr.  Phillips:     AVhat  is  the  pnrpose  of  this  exhibit? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  Tlie  ])nr])ose  of  this  exhibit  is  to  show 
the  rates  requested,  the  rates  now  in  effect,  and  the  ix-rcentasre 
of  increase,  if  any,  requested. 

Mr.  Phillips:  t'nder  whose  direction  was  this  work  pre- 
l)ared  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Under  the  direction  of  Mr.  \V.  S.  Waiter, 
president  of  tlie  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  En- 
ginemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  ])id  yoii  have  any  assistance  in  preparing 
this  work! 

Mr.  Steinberger :  Yes,  I  was  assisted  by  Mr.  M.  W.  Cadle, 
Assistant  (Irand  Chief  Engineer  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomo- 
tive Engineers. 

Mr.  Phillips:  ])o  the  rates  shown  here  ai>ply  to  both  en- 
gineers and  firemen  f 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  they  cover  all  of  the  railroads,  and  the 
various  engines  in  use  on  the  different  railroads,  ])arties  to  this 
arbitration  movement? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir,  they  do  not. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Not  all  of  them"? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     No,  sir,  not  all  of  them. 

Mr.  Pliilli]»s:  Why  were  not  all  roads  inclinled  in  >"<»nr 
table '! 

Mr.  Stein])erger :  On  some  roads,  where  schedule  rates 
vary  in  different  districts,  or  where  rates  are  based  on  an  arbi- 
trary basis  instead  of  a  mileage  basis,  such  roads  as  the  San 
Pedro,  i^os  Angeles  &  Salt  Lake,  and  the  Sunset  Lines  of  the 


426 

Soutliciii    I'acilic.   the   i^atcs  were   t'liiiiislicd  and  applied   to   tli»' 
districts  \)\  the  icspcotivc  oliaiiiiicii  of  tlic  (*n,y:in(H'rs  and  lire 
nu'ii  for  tliose  roads. 

Ml-.  IMnllips:  Then,  if  I  understand  you  correctly,  the  rep- 
resentatives of  tlie  men.  the  ,i;<'neral  cliainnen,  ])re])ared  the  data 
for  such  roads,  and  vou  accepted  the  ii,i>ures  with  which  they 
have  furnislied  you  .' 

Mr.  Steinberi»'er :      Yes. 

Mr.  Pbillii)s:  Have  these  tables  been  carefully  checked  to 
determine  their  accuracy.' 

Mr.  Steinl)eri;er :  Yes,  each  of  these  ta))les  has  been  checked 
by  the  chairman  of  the  Engineers'  (^onnnittee  and  the  cbairmali 
of  the  Firemen's  Connnittee  for  each  of  the  i-es])ective  roads 
shown  in  the  table. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  you  covered  all  service  on  all  railroads 
shown  in  that  exhibit? 

Ml-.  Steinl)eri>-er :  No,  sir,  no  attemjjt  has  been  made  to 
cover  any  service  except  passeng'er  service,  throuiih  freiiibt  serv- 
ice and  switchin<»-  service. 

Mr.  T*hillii)s:  Have  you  shown  the  roads  havin^i'  a  day 
shorter  than  ten  hours: 

Mr.  Steinberi'er :  Yes,  there  is  a  list  of  roads,  showins: 
those  liavini>-  a  day  shorter  than  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  show  the  roads  on  which  oil  is  used 
as  a  fuel,  wholly  or  in  ])art  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  on  pai^e   \V. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  the  rates  shown  in  this  comi)ilatioii  rej)- 
resent  the  earnings  of  engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  No,  sir,  they  do  not ;  just  simply  the  rates 
api)lied  to  the  engines,  regardless  of  overtime  or  any  other  al- 
lowances 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  it  possible  that  some  of  the  roads  have 
new  engines,  introduced  since  you  look  up  this  work,  for  which 
the  rates  are  not  shown  in  these  tables  ? 

Mr.  Steiubergei':     Yes,  but  they  would  be  very  few. 

Mr.  Pliillii»s:  AVell,  although  they  might  be  few,  would 
such  engines  be  covered  by  these  tables? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir,  they  would  not. 

Ml".  I^hillips:  Why  have  you  included  the  sixteen  arti(rles 
submitted  to  arbitration  in  this  ])ook? 


427 

Mr.  Steinl>eij>er:  Just  simply  as  a  mattt^i-  of  lefereuce,  in 
case  it  would  be  necessary  to  refer  to  them. 

^Ir.  Pliillii)s:  Does  this  exhibit  refer  to  auvtliiim-  other 
than  the  rates  of  pay  f 

Mr.  Steinberi>er:     No,  sir,  it  does  not. 

;Mr.  Pliillii)s:  Simply  the  rates  of  pay  now  in  dToct  for 
engineers  and  iiremen  on  the  different  loeomotives  in  use  on  the 
different  railroads? 

Mr.  Steinber<;er :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     How  did  you  go  about  to  secure  these  rates? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  The  weights  on  drivers  were  taken  from 
official  blue  prints  oi-  classifications  for  each  of  the  respective 
railroads.  The  engines  were  grouped  by  weights  on  drivers, 
according  to  the  original  pro])osition  presented  to  the  i-ailroads 
on  October  10,  1913,  and  the  rates  were  taken  as  api)lied  to  such 
engines  by  groujis  from  the  schedules  in  effect  at  the  )»i('s<Mit 
time. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  say  you  used  the  groni>  blue  ))i-iiits  t(t 
determine  the  classification  of  locomotives? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  sir,  in  most  instances  they  were 
blue  prints;  in  other  instances  the  classification  books;  and  in 
some  instances  this  information  was  taken  from  the  chairmen, 
where  we  were  unable  to  get  the  official  blue  prints  or  classifica- 
tions from  the  officials  of  the  companies. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  Were  the  blue  prints  which  you  were  able 
to  secure  furnished  by  officials  of  the  different  roads? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     In  most  instances,  yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Philli])s:  In  addition  to  showing  the  rates  in  effect  on 
the  different  engines,  do  these  tables  also  show  tlic  rate  re- 
quested on  that  engine?. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  Classified  on  the  basis  pro]X)sed  in  the  arti- 
cles submitted  to  arbitration? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  sir;  immediately  following  the  rates 
in  effect  for  both  engineers  and  firemen  are  shown  the  rates 
requested  on  the  same  class  of  engine  for  engineers  and  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Are  the  rates  requested  higher  than  tlic  rates 
in  effect,  in  all  instances? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir,  they  are  not. 

Mr.  Philli]>s:     Arc  you  ])repared  to  say  on  liow  many  roads 


428 

souu'  or  all  of  tlu'  rates  ar<'  as  lii^li  or  higher  than  the  rates 
leiiiioisted  ? 

Mr.  Stoinher.iici-:  i^>>  ('oiinliiig-  ri,i;ht  straight  through  the 
exhibit,  either  for  engineers  or  lirenien,  where  rates  are  shown 
that  are  as  liigh  or  liiglier  tlian  those  requested,  I  find  tliere 
are  ',^6  roads  that  pay  either  in  some  class  of  service  a  rate 
that  is  as  high  or  one  that  is  higher  than  the  rates  recjuested. 

Mr.  Phillips:     How  is  that  shown  on  the  tabk'? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  It  is  indicated  by  three  stars  and  a  foot- 
note at  the  bottom  of  tlie  page,  which  reads:  "l^iesent  rate  as 
high  or  higher  than  requested." 

Mr.  Phillips:  Where  the  rates  in  elfe.ct  are  not  as  liigh 
as  the  rates  requested  in  Article  2  of  the  proposition  submitted 
to  arbitration,  do  you  show  the  per  cent  of  increase  requested! 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  sir,  immediately  following;  the  next 
colnmn. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  that  apply  all  the  way  through  the 
table? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :     For  all  of  the  railroads  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     For  all  of  the  railroads. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  for  all  of  the  engines? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Philli]xs :  Where  there  is  no  increase  shown,  have  you 
indicated  the  difference  between  the  rate  requested  and  a  higher 
rate  that  may  be  now  in  elfect? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  sir,  no  attempt  has  been  made.  It 
is  just  shown  there  ]>y  three  stars,  which  indicates  it  is  as  high 
or  higher.    The  ]iercentage  has  not  been  figured. 

Mr.  Philli])s :  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  you  took  these 
rates  from  the  schedules  of  the  different  railroads? 

Mr.  Steinberger:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Phillips :  Do  those  schedules  show  their  effective  dates 
on  the  different  roads? 

Mr,  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  compiling  these  tables  or  preparing  this 
data,  do  you  indicate  on  what  division  or  part  of  the  system 
of  a  railroad  the  different  rates  apply? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  immediately  under  the  name  of  the 
railroad  the  divisions  or  distances  are  shown. 


429 

Mr.  Pliillips:  AVell,  now,  Mr.  Steiiibcrger,  it'  you  will  turn 
to  page  1  of  your  exhibit,  under  this  Roman  **I,"  I  note  there 
is  the  numeral  ''1,*'  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  (Proper)? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  notice  the  very  first  entry  in  your  table 
of  figures  under  the  heading  "Passenger  service,"  you  show  en- 
gines less  than  80,000  pounds,  8-Wheel,  4-4-0,  paid  two  different 
rates,  or  rather  two  different  rates  are  shown  as  being  in  effect 
on  the  particular  part  of  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  lines 
that  those  rates  would  apply.    How  do  you  account  for  that  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  The  rates  for  engineers  in  passenger 
service  are  based  on  the  size  of  cylinder.  Both  of  those  engines 
are  less  than  80,000  pounds  on  drivers,  one  engine  has  cylinders 
less  than  18  inches  and  pays  $4.15;  the  other  has  cylinders  18 
inches  and  over  in  diameter  and  pays  $4.40. 

Mr.  Phillips :  AVhat  explanation  have  you  to  make  for  the 
firemen's  ratef 

Mr.  Steinberger :     The  same  applies  to  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Exactly  the  same  reason! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  taking  the  Mikado  engine,  further 
down  on  the  page  in  both  200,000  and  less  than  225,000  pound 
class,  and  the  225,000  to  250,000  pound  class,  you  show  two  en- 
gines but  the  same  rate,  evidently,  all  the  way  across  the  page. 
Why  is  this? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Both  of  those  engines  are  Mikado  type 
engines  and  carry  the  same  rate  in  passenger  service.  By  ref- 
erence to  page  5  of  the  same  road,  you  will  note  one  of  those 
engines  in  through  freight  service  carries  $5.20  and  another 
carries  $5.45.  The  Mikado  carrying  the  $5.45  rate  has  a  weight 
on  drivers  of  215,000  pounds,  and  consequently  carries  the  25 
cents  differential  for  engineers  and  for  firemen,  and  both  are  the 
same  kind  of  engine,  having  cylinders  of  24  inclies  or  over  in 
diameter. 

Mr.  PhiUii)s:  On  account  of  the  engine  being  differently 
classified,  vou  have  run  it  twice  in  the  same  table  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  What  is  the  meaning  of  this  little  symbol 
following  the  name  of  the  engine,  the  asterisk? 

Mr.  Steiiil)erger :     The  footnote  at  tlie  bottom  of  each  page, 


430 

l'(n-  one  still',  it  says  "cvlindt'is  24  inches,  or  over,  in  dianietei-.'' 

Mr.  Piiillips:     And  two  stars  indicate  what? 

Ml'.  Steiid)er^er :  "No  locomotive  of  tliis  wei^iit  in  serv- 
ice." 

Mr.  I?liillii)s:     And  three  stars? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  "Present  rate  as  higli  or  Jii^her  than 
requested. ' ' 

Mr.  Pliillips:  In  this  last  column  on  page  1,  where  three 
stars  appear,  that  would  indicate — they  appear  several  times 
there? 

Mr.  Steinherger :     Yes. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  In  the  column  representing  the  percent  of 
increase  recjuested  for  firemen? 

Mr.  Steinl)erger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Tliat  would  indicate  that  the  particular  class 
of  engine  in  which  these  stars  are  entered,  now  pays  as  high 
or  liigher  rates  to  tiremen  as  tlie  rates  requested? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  in  the  same  column  for  firemen  and  in 
the  fourth  column  of  figures,  the  last  column  for  engineers,  it 
would  show  the  percent  of  increase  requested,  where  the  rates 
re(jueste(l  are  higher  than  the  rates  in  effect? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  This  explanation  applies  to  the  engines  ap- 
pearing on  the  following  pages,  for  the  Santa  Fe  at  least  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  the  present  rate  in  the  third  from  the  last 
column — you  have  a  caption  there  of  "Present  Rate," — is  that 
present  rate  the  rate  for  coal  burning  engines  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  sir,  and  also  for  oil  burning  en- 
gines, as  this  passenger  service — that  is  on  page  1,  you  under- 
stand— and  there  is  no  differential  for  coal  or  oil  burning 
engines. 

Mr.  Phillips:     No  differential? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     In  passenger  service. 

Mr.  IMiillips:  You  stated,  I  believe,  that  the  Atchison,  To- 
peka  &  Santa  Fe  are  tabulated  on  the  following  pages,  or  in  the 
following  ])ageK,  in  the  same  manner  you  liave  ex])lainod  on  the 
first  page? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 


431 

Mr.  Pliillips:  Well,  on  page  3,  just  for  a  little  further  ex- 
jjlaiiatioii,  about  the  middle  of  the  page,  you  use  tiie  term 
''Prairie"  type,  and  also  the  ''Pacific"  type,  twice  in  the  engines 
grouped  under  140,()()()  i)Ounds  and  less  than  17(),0()()  pounds. 
Why  do  you  do  that? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  The  first  Prairie  type  engine  indicated 
by  (c),  we  have  a  footnote  at  the  bottom  of  each  page  that  (c) 
indicates  compound  locomotive.  The  same  also  refers  to  the 
Pacific  type. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  Why  arc  they  sliowii  twice  whci-c  they  both 
carry  the  same  rate  t 

Mr.  Steinberger:  The  comi)ound  engine,  while  tlie  rates 
are  the  same  for  the  engineer  in  passenger,  by  going  across  to 
the  firemeii's  rate,  you  will  find  the  rate  on  the  compound  engine 
is  only  $2.85,  while  on  the  engine  with  the  star  the  rate  is  $3.75. 
paid  because  the  engine  has  a  cylinder  24  inches  and  over,  as 
indicated  by  the  star. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  turn  to  page  5,  i)lease,  through  freight 
service.  All  the  preceding  pages  referred  to  ))assengei'  service, 
did  they  not '! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir,  on  the  different  districts. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  the  present  rates  shown  for  firenuMi.  in 
through  freight  service,  the  'coal  burning  rates  on  the  different 
types  of  engine? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir,  exclusively. 

Mr.  Phillips:  What  would  be  the  rate  for  oil  burning  en- 
gines in  through  freight  service? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  15  cents  less,  in  each  instance,  for  fire- 
men. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Would  that  api)ly  on  all  classes  of  engines 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  except  for  engines  with  cylinders 
24  inches  and  over  in  diameter,  or  compound  engines  weighing 
215,000  pounds  and  over  on  drivers,  and  Mallets. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  there  any  differential  on  engines  of  that 
type  on  account  of  fuel  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  this  true  of  all  railroads,  parties  to  this 
movement  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir,  all  except  one. 

Mr.  Phillips:     What  one? 


♦ 


432 

Mr.  StciiilKMucr:     Tlic  (  liicaiio.   lux'k   Island  «.V   i'a<'iH<-. 

Mr.  Pliilli|)s:     What  is  the  dit^Vrence  on  that  lino.' 

Ml'.  Sti'inhorger:  Tlu'v  show  a  15  cents  ditTeivntial  be- 
tween eoal  and  oil  in  freight  service,  on  engines  having  cylinders 
24  inches  and  over  in  diameter. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:      Do  yon  know  why  that  is? 

Ml-.  Steinherger :  No,  I  do  not;  hnt  I  have  been  informed 
hy  the  chaii'man  that  this  15  cents  differential  really  does  not 
apply. 

Mr.  Phillips:     That  tliey  have  no  engines? 

Mr.  Steinl)ergci- :  That  they  have  no  oil  bnrning  engines 
of  that  class. 

Mr.  Phillips:      l)iit  it  does  appear  in  the  schedule? 

Mr.  St<Mnb<'rger:     Yes,  it  does  at)pear  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Do  you  know  how  this  rate  was  established? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Well,  you  say,  1  believe,  that  the  rate  shown 
here  for  firemen  in  freight  service  is  the  coal  burning  rate? 

^Ir.  SteinlxM'ger :     Ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Am],  with  the  exceptions  noted,  a  differential 
of  15  cents  per  TOO  miles  wcmid  be  in  effect  on  all  oil  burning 
locomotives? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  oil  burneis  were  used,  carrying  the  corre- 
S])on(lingly  lower  rate,  would  the  c(mi])arison  of  increase,  as 
shown  in  the  last  column,  be  greater  in  case  the  requests  sub- 
mitted to  arbiti'ation  were  granted? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  take  tifteen  <'ents  from  the  present 
rate,  which  would  make  the  i)ercentage  of  increase  greater  be- 
tween the  rate  req nested  and  the  present  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  increase  for  oil  burning  engines  then 
would  be  just  proportionately  greater,  as  fifteen  cents  added 
to  the  i)resent  rate  would  make  the  figures? 

Mr.   Steinberger:     Y^es. 

Mr.  Phil]ii)s:  Is  there  any  differential  shown  in  engineers' 
wages  on  account  of  fuel  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  sir,  there  is  no  differential  m  euiri- 
neers'  wages  on  account  of  fuel, 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  And  if  I  understand  you  correctly,  it  does 
not  ap])ly  to  the  large  engines  in  freight  service,  for  firemen? 


433 

Mr.  Stoinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     It  does  not  apply  in  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Does  it  apply  in  yard  service? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Does  it  a])])ly  to  local  freights? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  would  apply  there  the  same  as  to  tliroiiii'i 
freight  service? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  your  investigations,  Mr.  Steinberger,  did 
you  lind  any  uniformity  in  the  method  of  classifying  engines  on 
the  different  railroads? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Y^ery  little. 

Mr.  Phillii)s :  Did  you  find  on  any  railroad  as  many  classes 
of  engines,  or  grouped  under  as  many  different  classifications. 
as  there  are  in  the  articles  submitted  to  arbitration '! 

Ml'.  Steinberger:  Oh,  many  more  gToups;  as  far  as  the  en- 
gines are  shown  in  blue  yirints,  there  are  many  more  grou])s  than 
we  have  classed  under  our  original  proposition. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Has  the  Santa  Fe,  which  we  are  discussing 
now,  very  many  different  classifications  of  engines? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  they  have  many  classifications  of 
engines. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is,  they  classify  them  in  a  good  many 
different  grou])s,  or  under  different  types! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Did  you  find  it  difficult  to  reconcile  all  ol' 
these  rates  under  a  weight  on  drivers  basis? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  it  was  quite  a  task. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  you  all  of  the  schedules  from  wiiicii 
your  fig-ures  are  compiled,  for  the  purpose  of  checking  and  veri- 
fying these  rates,  if  necessary? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Will  you  please  turn  to  i)age  '27  of  Kxiiibit  4  .' 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillii)s  :     Canadian  Pacific  Railway  (  West  of  Ft.  Will 
iam).    AVhy  do  you  put  the  ten-wheel  engine  and  the  eight-wheel 
engine  shown  in  the  first  entry  of  the  tabular  matter  in  tlie  saim- 
column  or  in  the  same  group? 


434 

Mr.  ISteiiil)erger:  They  both  weigh  less  than  80,0()()  poiuids 
on  drivers. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  And  (h)  tlicy  l)oth  pay  tlio  same  rate  on  the 
territory ! 

Mr.  Steinherger:  All  engines  pay  the  same  rate  on  that 
territory. 

Mv.  IMiillips:  The  division  shown  on  this  i)age  is  the  Al- 
l)erta  Division,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Steinherger :     Yes,  Field  to  Laggan. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Does  it  apply  to  the  entire  division,  or  only 
to  a  portion  of  the  division' 

Ml-.  Steinherger:     .Inst  between  Field  and  Laggan. 

Mr.  PhiHiiis:     l)o  yon  know  the  distance? 

Mr.  Sleiiibei*g(M" :  I  bave  been  told  it  is  ai)proxiiiiately 
twenty  miles. 

Mr.  Phillips :  l)o  yon  know  whether  the  engines  tirst  listed, 
the  4-4-0  and  the  4-0-0 — and  \  think  a  similar  engine,  but  weigh- 
ing more  on  drivers  is  also  included  in  the  next  grouj) — do  you 
know  whether  engines  of  that  type  are  in  use  on  the  Alberta 
division  between  Field  and  l^aggan? 

Mr.  Steinherger:     No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Phillii)s :  In  cominling  your  tables,  you  took  the  sched- 
ule for  the  road,  to  ascertain  what  the  rates  were  within  that 
territory  ? 

Mr.  Steinherger:     Yes. 

.Mr.  Phillii)s:  J)id  you  take  the  blue  prints  of  the  road  to 
learn  whethei-  they  had  the  ty])es  of  engines  here  described? 

Mr.  Steinl)erger:     Yes. 

Ml-.  P]iillii)s:  The  (.Canadian  Pacific  Railway  has  engines 
of  this  type,  according  to  the  blue  print,  has  it?  . 

Mr.  Steinherger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But  von  do  not  know  whether  thev  are  in 
use  on  this  ])articular  division? 

Mr.  Steinherger:     1  do  not. 

Mr.  ]*hilli])s:  It  would  appear  from  your  table  that  while 
the  grouj)  under  140.000  to  170,000  pounds  weight  on  drivers 
shows  a  slightly  higher  rate  for  firemen  than  the  jjreceding  group, 
the  rate  for  engineers  is  the  same.     Is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Stein])erger :     Page  27. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Page  27? 


435 

Mr.  Steiuber^er :  No,  sir.  The  rate  for  fiiciiuMi  is  the 
same  all  over  the  district,  for  all  classes  of  engines. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  rate  for  firemen  is  the  same  all  the  way 
down? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir,  until  yon  coiiu'  to  the  MaUet. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Until  yon  come  to  tlie  MalU't  eiij>;ine,  nincli 
further  down  the  ])age? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  rate  requested  is  sliglitly  higher  Tor 
firemen  when  you  reach  the  14(),()()0  to  170,0()():' 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir,  in  each  instance  it  is. 

Mr.  Pliilli])s:  In  the  different  groupings  the  rate  retjuested 
for  firemen  graduates — increases  slightly  in  cacli  different 
grouping '! 

Mr.  Steinlierger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  But  the  rate  paid  for  any  or  all  of  the  en- 
gines of  the  ty])e  described,  if  used,  is  in  all  cases  much  greater 
than  the  rate  recpiestedf 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is,  from  the  note  made,  or  the  three 
stars  appearing  at  the  foot  of  the  page?  That  a])])ears  to  be 
true  all  the  way  do\m  for  firemen  and  for  engineers,  until  you 
reach  the  Mallet  engine. 

Mr.  Steinberger :  •  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Does  this  grouping  show  a  very  large  Consol. 
or  Consolidated  engine  in  use  there! 

Mr.  Steinlierger:  No,  sir,  the  largest  engine  shown  here 
on  the  system  is  between  170,000  pcmnds  and  20(),()0()  pounds  on 
drivers. 

Mr.  Pliilli])s:  Would  you  consider  that  a  large  Consoli- 
dated engine,  as  compared  with  some  of  the  Consolidated  en- 
gines on  other  railroads! 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Well,  that  is  not  the  largest  type  of 
Consolidation  engine,  but  that  is  a  good  size  engine. 

Mr.  Philli]»s:  'I'hey  show  no  Mikado  engines  or  any  larger 
type  of  single  ex]>ansion  engine? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  but  since  this  table  was  prepaied 
they  have  placed  in  service  a  Mikado  tyi)e  engine  that  weighs 
197,300  pounds  on  drivers,  which  would  fall  in  tlic  same  grouj). 
Tbev  are  not  shown  in  this  table  ;it  all. 


436 

Air.  Pliilli))s:  But  tlicy  are  larger  tliaii  tlic  t'ligiiies  in  use 
at  the  time  your  tables  were  ])i'e|)arefl,  or  at  the  time  you  began 
your  ]n"e)iai"ation  ? 

Air.  SteinluMger :  Ves,  they  are  the  same  ))ei'eeTita,ge  of 
engines;  ])ay  the  same  rate. 

AJr,  Phillips:     They  would  pay  the  same  rate. 
Mr.  Steinhergei-:     They  earry  the  same  rate,  I  am  informed. 
Air.  Phillips:     Turn  to  the  Chicago  &  North  Western  Rail- 
road, on  page  41,  please. 

Air.  St<'inl)erger:  Before  you  leave  this  Canadian  Pacific, 
l)y  referiing  to  ]nige  29,  you  will  find  that  the  rates  as  shown 
on  i^age  27,  as  ajiplying  between  Field  and  Laggan,  also  apply 
in  the  British  Columbia  division,  mountain  subdivision  east  of 
Revelstoke,  Xakusp  and  Slocan  branch,  and  all  subdivisions  and 
branches  on  district  3,  west  of  Columbia  River. 

Air.  Phillij)s:  Is  that  an  entire  division  according  to  your 
undertanding :' 

Air.  Steinberger:  1  understand  that — while  I  am  not  sure 
about  this,  I  have  been  told  it  is  140  miles  and  branches. 
Whether  the  l)ranches  are  included  in  the  140  miles  or  not,  1 
do  not  know.  You  will  have  to  ask  someliody  off  the  Canadian 
Pacific  Railway. 

Air.  Phillips :  AVell,  was  this  caption  taken  from  the 
schedule  here,  where  it  reads:  "All  Subdivisions  and  Branches 
on  District  3"f 

Air.  Steinberger:  That  is  the  exact  language  that  is  in 
the  schedule. 

Air.  Phillips :  So  that  these  rates  which  are  in  eflfect  on 
that  part  of  the  C.  P.  R.  ap])ly  to  branches  as  well  as  to  main 
line  service '! 

Air.  Steinberger:     Evidently,  from  this  heading. 
Air.  Phillips :     You  got  that  impression  from  the  schedule 
and  the  information  you  have  at  handf 
Air.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Mr.  Steinberger,  if  you  desire  to  nuike  any 

further  explanation  of  this  table,  or  any  of  the  following  tables, 

I  wish  you  would  feel  at  liberty  to  do  so  at  any  time.    Turn  to 

page  41,  please,  the  Chicago  &  North  Western  Railway. 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Y^es,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     You  show  two  4-4-0  engines  in  the  80,000 


437 

pound  class,  and  also  a  -i-G-O  engine,  one  l)ein^-  an  S-wImm-I  and 
the  otlier  a  10-wheel,  I  take  it. 
Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  it  shown  that  any  of  the  engines  in  the 
next  class,  80,000  to  100,000  pounds,  draw  a  higher  rate  of  pay? 
That  is,  either  the  8-wheel,  for  either  engineers  or  firenu'n,  or 
the  10- wheel,  in  the  first  class  f 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  the  10-wheel  in  the  first  class  pays 
$4.95.  The  8-wheel  in  the  second  class  pays  $4.60.  That  is  the 
engineer's  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  a  10-wheel,  under  this  grouping  of 
engines  by  weight  on  drivers,  would  pay  less  than  an  8-wheel  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir,  if  she  weighed  in  a  lesser  group. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But,  as  they  stand  today  the  lighter  engine 
on  the  driver  pays  more  than  an  engine  heavier  on  the  drivers! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :     How  do  you  account  for  that  f 

Mr.  Steinberger :  Well,  I  don't  know.  That  is  the  way  they 
are  shown  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Then  you  do  not  attempt  to  account  for  it? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Phillips :  For  the  engineers  on  that  same  railroad,  Mr. 
Steinberger,  these  10-wheelers  weighing  less  than  80,000  pounds 
on  drivers,  pay  just  the  same  as  an  engine  weighing  between — a 
10-wheeler  weighing  more  than  100,000  pounds  on  the  drivers! 
Is  that  correct! 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  is  the  same  true  of  firemen! 

Mr.  Steinberger:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  evidently  a  much  larger  engine,  an 
engine  having  far  greater  weight  on  drivers,  does  not  pay  an 
increased  weight  to  the  engineers  and  firemen  in  proportion 
to  her  increased  power! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir,  not  in  this  particular  instance. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  do  not  suppose  you  know  mucli  about 
tractive  effort,  do  you! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  have  not  anything  in  your  tal)les  along 
that  line! 

Mr.  Steinberger :     No,  sir. 


438 

Mr.  Pliillips :  Wore  these  rates  compiled,  Mr.  Steiiiberger, 
witliout  re,ij:ar(l  to  hours  per  (hiy  or  gi-adient  differential,  or  any 
other  arbitrary  allowance:' 

Mr.  Steinberger  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  simply  quote  the  rates  and  show  them 
as  applying  to  different  engines? 

Mr.  St('inl)erger  :     Yes,  sir. 

^\v.  Phillijjs:  And  on  some  of  the  roads  these  rates  apply 
where  there  is  an  eight  hour  day? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  on  others  where  there  is  a  ten  hour  day? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phil]i])s:  Do  you  know  wliethei-  or  not  there  are  more 
ten  hour  loads  than  eight  hour  roads? 

jNlr.  Steinberger:  Oil,  yes,  there  are  more  ten  hour  roads 
than  eiglit  hour  roads. 

Mr.  Pliilli])s:  Do  you  know  whether  the  rates  are  generally 
higher  on  ten  hour  roads  than  on  eight  hour  roads? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Well,  I  don't  know  about  that. 

Mr.  Phi]li]is:  Have  you  noticed,  in  compiling  your  tables, 
any  material  difference? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  not  much  difference. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  it  your  impression  that  the  rates  are,  gen- 
erally speaking,  about  the  same  on  an  eight  hour  basis  as  they 
are  on  a  ten  hour  basis? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  that  a])|ily  to  both  freight  and  passen- 
ger service? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  sir,  that  has  no  refei-euce  to  passen- 
ger service  whatever. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Your  statement  was  with  reference  to 
through  freight  service? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Through  freight  service  only. 

^Ir.  Philliiis:  AVhere  you  have  a  five  hour  day,  or  a  ten 
hour  day  in  through  jiassenger  service,  do  you  note  any  differ- 
ence in  the  rates  as  they  ap])ear  on  the  different  roads? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  sir,  there  is  no  record  made  of  roads 
having  a  longer  day  in  ])assenger  service,  in  this  exhibit  what- 
ever. 


439 

Mr.  Pliillii)s:  I  iiiidcrstaiid  tliat  tliis  «'\liil)il  has  im  ictVr- 
erice  to  hours  whatever. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir,  it  is  not  supposed  to. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Well,  in  comi)iling  your  work,  did  you  have 
occasion  to  observe  the  roads  on  a  five  hour  basis  and  those  on 
a  ten  hour  basis,  for  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Steiuberger:     They  are  i)ractically  the  same. 

Mr.  Phillijis:     The  rates  would  be  practically  the  same? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  AVliile  you  had  no  occasion  to  clieck  thai,  it 
was  your  observation  that  tliey  were  about  tlic  same  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:     You  could  see  no  noticeable  difference? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  A  road  of  the  character  of  the  Denver  &  Rio 
Grande  for  example  (not  asking  you  to  define  the  method  of 
conii)uting  pay  on  that  particular  road),  but  if  you  undei^stand 
that  they  have  a  short  day  or  a  limited  number  of  miles  con- 
stituting a  day,  did  you  notice  any  particular  difference  in  the 
rates  on  that  road  from  the  other  roads  that  are  on  a  full  one 
hundred  miles  or  a  longer  number  of  hours  i)er  day '! 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  sir,  they  appear  to  be  practic^ally  the 
same.    They  run  about  the  same. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Take  the  Utah  Lines  of  the  Denver  &  Rio 
Grande  Railroad.  1  believe  they  have  a  four  hour  and  a  half 
day,  or  four  hours  and  20  minute  day,  or  something  like  that, 
in  passenger  service;  do  the  rates  there  seem  to  be  about  the 
same  as  on  roads  having  a  ten  hour  day  for  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  on  that  road  tliey  have  a  forty-four 
mile  day  also,  and  a  sixty-five  mile  day,  perhaps,  and  while  I 
do  not  ask  you  to  give  an  expert  opinion  on  the  different  methods 
of  computing  the  pay,  did  you  notice  any  marked  difference  in 
the  basic  rates  there,  as  between  roads  on  a  different  basis? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  whetlier  or  not  tlic  VA  l*aso  »S: 
Southwestern  Railroad  is  an  eight  hour  road  or  a  ten  hour  roadT 

Mr.  Steinberger :     An  eight  hour  road  in  freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Turn  to  page  73,  please.  The  rates  here 
shown  as  being  in  effect  for  cngiiuMM-s  and  fii-oincn  arc  about  the 


440 

saiut',  <)i-  at  least  not  lower,  than  on  tlie  ten  lioiir  road  ojK'rating 
the  saiiH'  territory. 

Ml-.  Steinl)erj>:er :     Yes,  sir,  they  are  higher. 

Mr.  INiillij.s:     Tliey  are  lnij:her? 

Mr,  St('inl)er^er :     Yes,  sir. 

^Ii-.  Phillips:  And  the  three  stars  appearing-  in  the  last 
eoluniii  for  firemen,  and  also  in  ] daces  in  the  column  for  en- 
j^ineers,  showing-  ])ercent  of  increase,  would  indicate  that  even 
thou««h  lliat  is  an  eight  hour  road,  the  rates  are  now  higher,  and 
no  increase  is  i'('(|uest<'d  foi-  cngineei's  and  fii-enien  on  that  rail- 
road. 

Mr.  Steinherger:  Yes,  but  there  is  an  explanation  to  make 
in  connection  with  this  road.  AVhile  a  $0.75  Hat  rate  is  shown  in 
freight  service  down  to  engines  200,000  to  225,000  pounds  on 
drivers,  yet  the  fact  remains  that  there  is  a  $3.55  rate  in  eifect 
from  Durand  to  Carrizozo.  1  understand  that  this  rate  is  only 
on  a  seventy  mile  division. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Well,  would  \ou  understand  that  the  $3.55 
rate  applied  for  seventy  miles? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s  :  That  a  fireman  would  not  be  required  to  work 
one  hundred  miles? 

Mr.  Steinl)erger  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s:     He  would  get  $3.55  for  seventy  miles? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  Yes,  sir,  but  the  $3.75  rate  a])i)lies  only 
to  the  rest  of  the  entire  system. 

Mr.  P]iilli])s:  ^Ir.  Steinberger,  you  stated,  or  I  got  the  im- 
pression at  least,  that  there  was  no  increase  requested  on  this 
road.    That  is  not  true  of  passenger  service,  is  it? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  Nor  is  it  true  of  eng'in<'ers  on  some  of  the 
freight  engines? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillijjs:  And  wliere  the  three  stars  are  shown,  that 
would  indicate  that  although  it  is  an  tnght  hour  road,  that  the 
rates  now  ])aid  are  as  high  or  higher  than  the  rates  requested? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Turn  to  page  80,  please,  Mr.  Steinberger. 
For  engineers  and  for  firemen,  beginning  with  the  third  group, 
or  the  grou])  of  100,000  to  140,000  pounds  on  drivers,  I  note  there 


441 

that  the  rates  seem  to  he  soinewliat  mixed,  ^i.^O,  $5.0o,  $4.80, 
$5.05,  $5.05,  $5.30,  $5.30,  and  then  eontinnini^-  ni  the  next  ^roup, 
140,000  to  170,000  jiounds  on  drivers,  the  rate  for  the  engineer  is 
$5.05,  $5.30,  $5.30,  $5.05,  and  so  on  down  tlie  colnnin.  Ihiv*'  you 
any  ex])lanation  for  this? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  No,  sir.  Those  are  the  lates  as  tlicy  ap- 
pear in  tlie  scliednle,  based  on  the  weiglit  on  (liivers. 

Mr.  Philli}>s:  That  is-,  o-roupini;-  them  uHih'r  the  \vci,i;ht  on 
drivers  basis  would  indicate  that  tliere  is  a  ,i>reat  valuation  in 
rates  on  en,<;ines  of  the  same  weiglit  on  drivers,  oi-  ap[)roxi- 
mately  the  same  weij>ht  on  drivers  within  the  limitation  of 
these  gTon])s  '■ 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliillips :  They  are  different  tyi)es  of  engines,  I  take  it, 
from  the  number  and  the  wheel  descri])tion  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But  they  are  apparently  within  a  nan-ow 
limitation  of  size  when  measured  by  weight  on  drivers.' 

Mr,  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Were  you  present  during  the  testimony  of 
the  preceding  witness  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Phillips:  Did  yon  liear  the  explanation  of  the  relation 
between  weight  on  drivers  and  tractive  power? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     I  did. 

Mr,  Phillips:  AVell,  if  there  is  any  weight  to  be  attached 
to  the  statement  ma(h%  would  you  understand  that  the  tractive 
power  of  the  engines  would  be  within  a  reasonable  limitation 
the  same  or  somewhat  similar? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliilli})s:  Their  drawbar  pull  or  tonnage  cai)acity 
wonhl  all  be  witiiin  a  medium  range? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     I  would  think  so. 

Mr.  Phillips:     All  approximately  tlie  same:' 

Mr.  Steinberger:      I   would  think  so. 

Ml'.  J^hillips:     Tiiere  would  be  variations,  of  course? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  I^hillips:  Those  variaticms,  I  presume,  arc  (luitc  dis- 
tinct in  specific  or  exceptional  cases  ? 

Mr.  Stein})ergei- :      Yes,  sii*. 


U2 

Mr.  Pliilli])s:  Xow,  turn  to  the  next  l)ai;(>,  switcliing-  lates. 
You  sliow  a  uunilcr  of  i-atcs  for  ])otli  on^iueers  and  liremoii  in 
switcliin^  service.     (";iii  you  <'\i)laiii  wliy  this  is? 

Mr.  Steiiihei-.ner :  Yes,  sir.  Take  the  first  rate — our  l)asis 
for  switeliinp:  rates  are  in  two  .nrou})s,  tliat  is,  tliree  i»:roups; 
less  tlinn  140,(M)(>  and  over  140,()()()  pounds  on  dii\-ers,  and  Mallet 
tyjje  engines.  Take  the  first  grouj)  of  engines  rated  at  $4  and 
$4.25.  That  is  first  and  second  class  yards.  That  applies  to  the 
firemen  also,  ^\•it]l  a  rate  of  $2.40  for  second  class  an<l  $2.50  for 
first  class  yards.  The  Great  Northern  Kailroad  has  a  method  of 
basing  their  switcli  engine  rates  on  road  engines  and  you  will 
notice  there  that  the  $2.75  rate,  while  it  is  not  on  a  switch  en- 
gine, it  is  on  an  eight  wheel  engine.  They  pay  a  differential 
thei-e  for  the  engineer  and  firemen  both,  engineer  $4.50  and  $4.75 
and  the  firemen's  rate  is  $2.75,  and  tliat  is  shown  twice  just  to 
keep  the  table  in  sha])e.  (hi  tlie  Mallet  engines  the  first  rate  for 
the  engineer  is  $5  and  tlie  next  is  $5.25.  On  the  second  Mallet 
engine  the  engineer  gets  $5.25  and  $5.50.  The  firemen's  rate  is 
the  same  for  engines  of  all  classes.  The  engineer's  rate  is  for 
an  engine  in  switcliing  service,  for  Mallets  of  275,000  or  less  on 
drivers  and  for  275,000  pounds  and  over  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Pliilli])s :     That  makes  a  difference  of  25  cents? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  Yes,  sir,  25  cents  differential.  ( )ne  of 
them,  the  275,000  and  less  on  drivers  gets  a  differential  of  75 
cents,  and  the  275,000  ])ound  and  over  on  drivers  has  a  differ- 
ential of  one  dollar. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  Did  1  understand  you  to  say  the  Great 
Northern  fixes  a  latc  foi-  road  engines  when  used  in  yard 
service  ? 

^Ir.  Steinberg(»r:  Yes,  sii".  They  also  show  a  rate  in  pas- 
sengei-  and  freight  service  for  the  switching  engines. 

Mr.  Phil]ij)s:  Do  all  of  the  road  engines  on  the  Great 
Northern  railroad  show  a  yard  rate? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  P]iilH))s:  And  do  all  of  the  switch  engines  show  a  road 
rate  in  both  freight  and  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phi]li])s:  Tn  this  particular  table  it  would  appear  that 
the  Mallet  rate  for  firemen  is  $4.     Ts  tliat  also  the  road  rate? 

^fr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 


443 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  that  also  the  rate  requested  for  that  en- 
gine ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes.  That  will  apply  not  only  to  the 
Great  Northern,  but  to  all  other  roads.  I  have  never  found  a 
place  where  a  Mallet  engine  used  in  switching  service  pays  less 
than  the  $4  rate  for  firemen,  which  is  the  rate  requested. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Will  you  please  turn  to  page  110,  the  Mis- 
souri, Oklahoma  &  Gulf  Railway,  and  the  Missouri,  Oklahoma 
&  Gulf  Railway  of  Texas.  The  first  engine  shown  there,  the 
4-4-0  and  the  4-6-0  in  the  first  group,  less  than  80,000  pounds, 
shows  a  rate  for  engineers  of  $5.20  and  for  firemen  a  rate  of 
$3.30  in  freight  service.  Do  you  know  whether  those  rates  are 
in  effect  on  that  road? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir,  they  are. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  you  know  whether  that  road  has  engines 
of  that  size? 

]\Ir.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  whether  those  eng-ines  are 
used  in  freight  service*? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  they  were  used  in  freight  service,  would 
they  carry  that  rate,  according  to  the  schedule? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  They  certainly  would,  because  the  $5.20 
rate  for  engineers  and  the  $3.30  rate  for  firemen  are  the  only 
rates  shown — flat  rates. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  said  a  moment  ago  that  the 
Great  Northern  had  road  rates  for  its  switch  engines  and  a  yard 
rate  for  its  i-oad  engines? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  also  said  in  your  opening 
answers  that  you  had  had  some  experience  as  a  railroad  man? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  it  sometimes  the  case  that  an  engine,  even 
though  called  a  passenger  engine,  and  always  so  addressed,  is 
sometimes  used  to  pull  box  cars  or  freight  trains? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  I  have  run  practically  every  class 
of  engine  used  in  passenger  service,  in  freight  service,  especially 
when  breaking  in  engines. 

Mr.  Phillii)s :  Do  you  think  that  is  the  general  custom  on 
most  railroads? 


444 

Mr.  Sti'iiil)C'r^i'r :  1  ilu  nut  kiiuw  as  t<>  lliat:  1  )ir<'s\inH'  it 
is. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  So  far  as  your  experience  as  an  engineer  or 
fireman  lias  gone,  yon  Itelieve  it  is? 

Mr.  JSteinberger :      I  never  worked  for  any  road  hut  one. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  if  this  engine  is  owned  by  the  Missouri, 
Oklahoma  &  Gulf,  and  is  ever  eou])led  to  a  freight  train,  the 
rates  shown  here  are  the  rates  that  would  ai»i)ly,  according  to 
the  schedule  of  that  railroad? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  because  they  have  only  one  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips:  T  wish  you  would  please  turn  1o  ]»age  153, 
the  Southern  Pacific  Pailway,  mountain  divisions. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Philli]is :  From  your  table  I  would  understand  that 
the  rates  in  effect  for  engineers  and  firemen  on  the  mountain 
divisions  of  the  Southern  Pacific  Company  are  in  the  main  as 
high  or  higher  than  the  rates  requested? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     ^J'liat  is  true  for  engineers,  is  it,  also? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     It  is,  down  to  the  ^Nfallet. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Down  to  the  Mallet  engines  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  Do  they  use  Mallet  engines  in  ])assenger 
service — or  do  you  know? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     i  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  May  I  interrupt  right  there,  so  that  I  will 
understand  this? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Certainly. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  ])age  15o  to  which  you  refer  is  purely 
the  mountain  divisions,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  it  is  so  stated  at  the  top  of  the 
page — ^mountain  divisions. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Just  so  that  I  may  understand  that — 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Tn  the  present  rate  you  have  stated  in  that 
column  the  rate  which  is  s]K^cifically  applicable  to  mountain  ter- 
ntory? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir,  as  I  understand  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  then  opposite  that,  in  "rates  re(|uested," 
you  have  set  out  the  rate  ap])licable  to  valley  territory? 


445 

jVlr.  Stein  be  I'ger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheoan :  If  you  add  the  ten  per  cent  to  the  rate  which 
would  be  applicable,  practically  all  of  these  stars  would  dis- 
appear from  that  page,  would  they  not? 

Mr.  Steinljerger :  Not  the  ten  per  cent,  hardly.  I  do  not 
think  that.  Of  course,  it  would  reduce  the  percentage,  as  far  as 
that  is  concerned. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  begin  at  $4.90  as  the  present  rate,  and 
take  ten  per  cent  of  $4.50,  or  45  cents,  and  add  it  to  $4.50  and 
you  have  $4.95  as  against  $4.90? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that,  as  I  said,  it  would  take  out  prac- 
tically all  the  stars. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  fact,  as  spread  here  on  this  page,  it  is  the 
comparison  of  a  valley  rate  with  a  mountain  rate,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  it  is  misleading. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Misleading? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  as  far  as  the  rates  are  concerned. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  interrupted  at  that  point  just  to  be  sure 
whether  I  understood  it. 

Mr.  Steinl)erger:     This  states  at  the  to|)  in  a  note: 

"  On  all  divisions  where  grade  is  one  and  eight-tenths  per 
cent  or  over,  an  increase  of  ten  per  cent  over  following  rate 
is  requested." 

I  do  not  know  whether  it  would  apply  on  this  division  or 
not.  This  grade  would  have  to  be  1.8  per  cent  or  over  before  this 
ten  ]>er  cent  would  apply.  So,  not  knowing  the  gradient  of  the 
road  or  having  a  print  of  the  profile,  we  would  not  know  what 
percentage  of  grade  that  is. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Pardon  the  interruption,  I  just  wanted  to 
make  sure  on  which  basis  it  was  made  up. 

Mr.  Phillips :  All  right.  The  purpose  of  the  examination 
is  to  have  it  clearly  understood. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  you  said  this  was  misleading.  Do 
you  not  understand  that  those  are  the  actual  rates  in  effect  on 
all  the  mountain  divisions? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 


446 

Mr.   Phillips:     Then  you  do  not  mean  that  it  is  misleading? 

^li-.  Sti'inbor^cr:  Oh,  no,  not  the  porcentag-es  botwoon  the 
two.  If  tliis  grade  is  1  .S  or  over,  these  rates  requested  would 
not  apply.    The  ten  per  cent  increase  would  apply. 

^fr.  ]*liillii»s:  if  it  was  not  a  1.8  ])er  cent  grade,  the  rate 
(pioted  is  absolutely  correct.' 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes.    That  is  what  I  am  explaining. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Ami  would  not  be  misleading  then? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  do  not  know,  of  course,  whether  addi- 
tional miles  are  allowed  in  addition  to  this  rate.  I  believe  you 
said  you  took  none  of  that  into  consideration  I 

Mr.  Steinl)erger :     I  did  not. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But  the  rates  quoted  here  would  be  the 
actual  rates  in  effect  according  to  the  schedule  1 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And,  according  to  the  request,  you  show  the 
difference  between  valley  territory  and  mountain  territory  on 
the  Southern  Pacitic  Railway? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  As  well  as  you  might  compare  one  railroad 
wdtli  another  railroad? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  do  not  know  how  much  mountain  terri- 
tory the  Southern  Pacific  has? 

Mr.  Steinberger  :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Or  how  much  territory  these  higher  rates 
would  cover? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :     <  )r  whether  the  grade  is  1.8  per  cent  or  not? 

jMr.  Steinberger:     I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Evidence  was  given  here  this  morning  that 
a  $3.90  rate  applied  on  the  Southern  Pacific.  Do  you  include 
that  in  the  tables  here? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  sir,  it  is  not  included  in  the  tables. 
I  understand  that  the  $3.90  is  paid  in  passenger  service  on  all 
engines  weighing  over  140,000  pounds,  between  Eoseville  and 
Truckee,  if  not  turned  at  Blue  Mountain.  As  far  as  that  rate  is 
concerned,  it  is  not  included  in  this  table  at  all. 

Mr.  Phillips :     It  is  not  in  the  table? 


447 

Mr.  Steiiiberger  :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips  :     Is  it  shown  in  the  schedule  t 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  it  is  shown  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Phillips  :     Why  did  you  not  include  it  in  your  table? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  To  tell  the  truth  about  it,  it  was  over- 
looked. Nobody  in  the  country  knew  it  but  you.  We  did  not  tell 
the  chief  about  it. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  rate  of 
$3.90  would  apply  in  the  passenger  service  to  all  engines  weigh- 
ing over  140,000  pounds  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  Yes,  and  in  freight  service,  in  the  moun- 
tain division,  the  $4  rate  would  ajiply  on  all  engines  weighing 
over  140,000  pounds  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  whether  the  Southern  Pacific 
has  anj'  engines  weighing  more  than  140,000  pounds  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  Do  you  know  whether  they  are  used  on  that 
particular  division? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     They  are? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Please  turn  to  page  157,  Southern  Pacific 
(Sunset  Lines).  Do  you  mean  Southern  Pacific  (Sunset  Lines) 
or  Southern  Pacific  (Atlantic  System)  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  It  used  to  be  called  the  Southern  Pa- 
cific (Atlantic  System) ;  it  is  now  called  Central  Lines,  or  Sun- 
set Lines. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  whether  any  more  lines  are 
included  in  the  operation  mider  Sunset  Lines? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     No,  sir,  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Your  table  is  intended  to  cover  what  has 
be,en  connuonly  known  as  the  Atlantic  System? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  notice  in  your  rates  here  for  firemen  you 
use  fractions  and  odd  figures.    Can  you  explain  why  that  is? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  That  is  the  way  they  were  given  to  me 
by  the  chairman  of  our  committee  on  that  road. 

Mr.  Phillips:  This,  then,  is  one  of  the  tables  which  was 
not  ])repared  by  ^^ourself? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes. 


448 

Mr.  IMiilli])s:  ^'()u  understand  it,  or  have  evei-y  t'ailli  in 
tlie  accuracv  of  the  figures? 

Mr.  Steiii])erger :     I  (h)  not  understand  it. 

'Sir.  l^hillijjs:     Well,  you  understand  it  to  be  correct.' 

Mr.  Steinl)ei*^ei-:     ^'es. 

Ml-.  IMiillii>s:  Perhaps  I  am  asking-  too  inucli  of  you,  Mr. 
Steinbergei-.  What  I  started  out  to  say  was  that  you  under- 
stand it  to  be  correct? 

Ml.  SteinluMger :     Yes. 

Ml'.  l*liilli]»s:  1  )o  you  know  wliy  tlie  general  cliairnian  was 
recjuested  to  ])rei)are  lliis  rate.' 

Mr.  Steinherger:  Sinii)ly  ])ecause  we  couhl  not  get  tlie  rate. 
The  Sunset  l^ine  rates  foi-  lirenien  air  on  a  tii))  l»asis,  and  not 
knowing  the  distance  l)etween  ])oints,  or  any  of  the  technicalities 
of  this  schedule,  he  was  re(]uested  to  make  uj>  these  rates,  and 
that  i>  wliat  he  uavc  us. 

.Mr.  Philli])s  :  Do  you  believe  he  would  have  had  less  trouble 
if  some  staudanl  metliod  of  classifying  engines  was  genei'ally 
adopted? 

Mr.  Steinherger:  V(\s.  we  did  not  have  any  such  trouhle 
on  any  of  these  other  roads. 

^\v.  Phillips:     Js  this  rate  made  on  a  mileage  basis? 

.Mr.  Steinherger:     On  a  triji  basis. 

Mr.  J*hillips:  You  said,  1  believe,  that  if  a  mileage  l)asis 
was  universally  adopted,  and  some  standard  uniform  method  for 
classifying  loc  omotives,  it  would  be  much  easier  to  reach  a  com- 
parison between  the  dil'ferent  railroads  and  to  understand  just 
what  is  being  paid  to  engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Steinherger:     Yes. 

Ml'.  Phillii)s :     Mr.  Stone,  do  you  wish  to  ask  any  questions? 

Mr.  Stone:  ^\v.  Steinherger,  will  you  refer  back  to  page  1 
for  a  moment  ? 

Mr.  Steinherger:     \"es. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  would  like  to  ask  you  a  question  in  regard 
to  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  (Proper).  For  the  group 
of  locomotives  ranging  from  140,000  to  170,000  pounds  weight 
on  drivers  the  ]ier('entage  of  increase  of  wages  requested  a]> 
pears  to  be  from  2'2  to  28  per  cent,  while  for  the  same  engines  on 
the  other  divisions  of  the  railroad  it  is  a  much  smaller  increase. 
How  do  von  account  for  this  ? 


449 

Mr.  Sti'i]il)erger:     Are  you  a8kiii<^'  about  pa^^c   1.' 

Mr.  Stone:  Take  page  1,  down  in  the  third  grouji,  140,()i)i) 
pounds  to  170,000  pounds,  on  a  Consol.  engine,  tlie  lireiuan's 
rate  is  given  at  $2.65. 

Mr.  Steinherger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :     And  the  percentage  of  increase  is  22.64  ? 

Mr.  Steinherger :     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  While  )-iglit  over  on  the  next  page,  on  the 
region  between  Pueblo  and  Denver,  the  same  Consol.  engine  is 
shown  as  carrying  a  rate  of  $2.94. 

Mr.  Steinherger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  do  not  mean  to  convev  hv  that  the  idea 
that  it  is  a  \ery  high  increase  for  this  other  territory '!  Is  it  not 
simply  an  indication  that  it  is  a  very  low  spot  in  the  firemen's 
wage  ? 

Mr.  Steinherger:  Yes,  it  is  nnich  lower  than  ou  the  dis- 
trict between  Pueblo  and  Denver. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  compiling  these  rates  do  you  not  find  these 
loM'  spots  all  over  the  different  roads  f 

Mr.  Steinherger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     On  some  particular  class? 

Mr.  Steinherger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  Take  for  exami)le,  on  page  44,  the  Chicago, 
Burlington  &  Quincy.  They  have  a  rate  there  for  the  Mikado 
type  weighing  less  than  200,000  pounds  on  drivers,  in  through 
freight  service,  of  $5.40  ? 

Mr.  Steinherger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean  :     What  page  is  that '! 

Mr.  Stone:  Page  44,  Mikado  type  weighing  less  than 
200,000  pounds  on  drivers;  Avhile  on  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  & 
St.  Paul,  on  page  50,  for  Mikado  type  weighing  less  than  225,000 
on  drivers  it  is  $5.55,  and  on  page  91,  on  the  Illinois  Central,  for 
the  same  type  of  engine,  a  Mikado  weighing  less  than  225,000 
pounds  on  drivers,  that  pays  $5.40.  Now,  these  are  the  modern 
type  locomotive,  yet  there  is  a  discrepancy  of  15  cents  between 
these  tAvo  rates. 

Mr.  Steinherger:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  simply  indicates  a  low  spot  again  ? 

Mr.  Steinherger:  I  am  afraid  you  are  overlooking  some- 
thing in  these  rates,  though.     Take  the  Mikado  type  engin<'  ou 


450 

tho  r.,  B.  tV  g.,  oil  page  44,  the  t'reighl  rate  for  that  engine  is 
$5.40. 

ISIr.  Stone :     That  is  the  way  I  have  it  here,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Steinberger :  Yes.  Now,  turn  to  the  next  ^1  ikado  rate 
you  call  attention  to  on  page  50 — 

Mr.  Stone:     The  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul. 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  the  $5.55  rate. 

Mr.  Stone:     Yes. 

Mr.  Steinberger :  You  will  notice  that  the  rate  above  that 
in  the  same  group  for  the  Mikado  engine  is  only  $5.30. 

Mr.  Stone :     $5.80. 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes.  One  of  those  engines  weighs 
215,000  pounds  and  over  on  drivers  and  the  other  one  does  not. 

Mr.  Stone:     A  difference  probal)ly  of  500  pounds. 

^Ir.  Steinberger:     Yes,  and  a  25  cent  differential. 

Mr.  Stone:     Yes,  T  knew  that.     T  think  that  is  all. 

(^Ross  exa:\iixation. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Mr.  Steinberger,  turn  to  pages  1  and  2,  the 
Atchison,  To])eka  &  Santa  Fe,  to  wliieh  Mr.  Stone  n'ust  adverted. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Air.  Sheean:  If  the  territory  between  Pueblo  and  Denver, 
on  ])age  2,  is  not  a  district  which  under  the  proposition  sub- 
mitted here  would  take  that  added  ten  ])er  cent,  rate,  then  the 
percentages  canied  in  tlie  last  column  on  the  page  would  not 
only  a])pioacli  bul  pio)ni))ly  would  pass  the  percentages  shown 
on  page  1,  would  they  not? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  it  would  a]iply,  just  the  same  as  >ou 
referred  lo  llie  Southefii  Pacific  a  short  time  ago. 

^Ir.  Sheean:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  i)art  of  the  Atchison, 
Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  system  shown  on  ]>age  1,  all  territory  except 
between  Pue])lo  and  Denver,  is  now  on  a  different  rate  tlian  the 
one  shown  on  i>age  2,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Steinl)erger:     Ves,  on  a  different  basis. 

Mr.  Sheean:     AVliere  the  diff(M'ential  exists — 

Mr.  Steinberger:  I  don't  know  whether  the  gradient  be- 
tween Pueblo  and  Denver  is  sufficient  to  carry  this  10  per  cent 
increase,  as  shown  at  the  head  of  this  table.    I  don't  know  tliat. 

]\fr.  Sheean:  And  I  take  it  it  is  so,  Mr.  Steinberger,  you 
have  no  know]<*dge  as  to  the  conditions  on  this  famous  twenty- 


451 

two  iiiile  run  from  Field  to  Laggaii,  on  which   ihcy  pay  $')M 
for  all  engines  except  Mallets? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Bnt  this  rate  does  not  only  apply  on  the 
Alberta  division  between  Field  and  Laggan,  but  on  the  British 
C^ohunbia  division,  as  shown  on  the  second  page  following,  it 
also  applies.    I  don't  know  anything  abont  that  district  eitliei-. 

Mr.  Slieean:  And  the  ])rovision  there  is  Just  the  same  on  all 
engines  except  the  Mallets,  they  take  the  $r).G5  rate? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  T  take  it,  Mr.  Steinberger,  f lom  what  you  have 
already  said,  that  >ou  have  no  knowledge  as  to  how  many  of 
these  engines  of  different  types  are  operated  on  any  ))avticular 
part  of  these  railroads? 

^Ir.  Steinberger:  No,  sir.  Some  classihcation  books  and 
blueprints  show  that,  but  we  have  made  no  effort  whatever  to 
keep  track  of  the  number  of  engines  of  different  classes.  How- 
ever, that  information,  1  remember,  w^as  requested  from  the 
(leueral  Managers'  Connnittee,  and  we  never  got  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  there  isn't  anywhere  in  this  comi)ilation 
— 1  haven't  run  over  it  all — there  is  no  eifort  to  assemble  any 
information  as  to  the  number  of  engines  that  take  a  jiarticular 
rate? 

Mr.  Steinl)erger :  No,  sir,  no  attempt  whatever  has  been 
made. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  of  course,  Mr.  Steinberger,  that  may  be 
in  these  schedules,  certain  rates  which  would  be  apjilieahlc  to 
engines  if  oi^erated  on  certain  divisions? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Sheean:  And  as  to  wliether  thev  ever  were  opci'ated 
on  such  divisions,  or  ever  took  such  rates,  you  don't  know.' 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Slieean  :  Noi-  does  this  purport  to  carry  any  sncli  in- 
formation? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     No,  sir. 

Ml'.  Sheean :  There  was  one  question  asked  you,  Mr.  Stcin- 
hergei-,  which,  as  I  understand  it,  was  whether  there  was,  in 
any  of  the  schedules,  a  higher  rate  as  to  any  or  all  classes  of 
engines,  in  the  present  schedules  and  in  your  ]iroposals — is  thcro 
any  i-oad  or  schedule  which  carries  a  higher  rate  of  pay  ou  all 


452 

the  engines  which  that  road  has  in  operation  than  tlie  propuisal 
here? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

^Ir.  Slieean  :  I  thonght  perhaps  you  did  not  intend,  in  using 
that  expression,  *'any  or  all"  to  infer  or  inii)ly  that  sneh  was 
the  case. 

.Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  ISheean:  AVlien  yon  speak  of  there  being  33  roads  in 
which  you  can  find  or  have  found  a  particular  rate  as  liigli  or 
higher  than  that,  that  may  be  a  rate  for  a  particular  engine 
0]ierated  in  a  i^articular  way,  that  would  carry  tliat  rate? 

^Iv.  Steinberger:     Either  for  engineers  or  firemen? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Either  for  engineers  or  firemen. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  whether  there  is  now  or  ever  has  been  a 
schedule  in  ojieration  on  that  road,  under  which  that  higher  rate 
was  ever  paid,  you  cannot  say  or  attem])t  to  sliow  1)y  tliis  sum- 
mary ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  in  manv  instances  we  actually  know  that 
these  engines,  where  the  excessive  rate  is  paid,  are  really  in 
service. 

Mr.  Sheean:     In  many  cases? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  sir,  practically  all  cases  exce])t  you 
take  the  C.  P.  R.  and  maybe  other  roads. 

Mr.  Sheean:  AVhat  I  meant  was  that  this  exhibit  does  not 
purport  to  show  that  fact. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir,  it  does  not. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  is  not  in  this  book,  is  there,  Mr.  Stein- 
berger, any  comparison  of  present  rates  in  work  train,  ])usher, 
hel]^er,  wreck,  mine  run,  belt  line  or  transfer  service? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  sir.  For  transfer  service  there  is 
a  group  of  small  roads  in  the  back  of  the  book,  beginning  witli 
page  187.  You  wdll  notice  that  there  is  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio 
Chicago  Terminal,  which  shows  a  transfer  service  and  suburban 
passenger  service.  Also  the  Chicago  &  Western  Indiana  and 
the  Belt  Eailway  of  Chicago.  The  other  roads  are  just  simply 
terminal  roads  and  refer  to  switching  service  only.  Those  two 
roads  are  the  only  ones  that  refer  to  transfer  service  in  any  ]iar- 
ticular  at  all. 

^fr.  Sheean:     Under  the  proposal  as  submitted.  Mr.  St«'iu- 


453 

berger,  there  is,  as  you  oi'  course  know,  a  request  that  puslier, 
helper,  work  train,  wreck,  mine  run  services  all  pay  a  tlirough 
frei,i2:ht  rate. 

Mr.  Steinberger  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Have  you  made  any  com])arison  or  tabu- 
lation of  the  present  work  train  rates  with  the  rates  proposed 
in  this  submission"? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     None  whatever. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Or  as  to  any  of  the  other  items  in  tliis  un- 
classified service! 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  sir,  except  transfer,  in  regard  to 
these  companies  back  here.    (Indicating  in  book.) 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  that  is  the  part  you  refer  to  here? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Sheean:  l^ou  haven't  made  an  extension  anywhere  of 
this  increase  of  10  per  cent! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Do  you  know  where  that  10  per  cent  is  to  be 
applied  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  sir;  there  is  nothing  whatever  in 
this  book  to  indicate  where  it  should  be  applied. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  mean  to  w^hat  you  apply  the  10  per  centf 

Mr.  Steinberger :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  is  there  any  comi)arison  of  way  freight 
rates! 

Mr,  Steinberger:     No,  sir, 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  have  some  figures  here  as  to  the  South- 
ern Pacific.  The  Southern  Pacific,  I  believe,  has  been  spoken  of 
as  being  on  an  eight  hour  basis'? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Part  of  it.    Which  system? 

Mr.  Sheean :     The  Pacific  system. 

Mr,  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  eight  hour  basis,  however,  provides 
that  one,  two  or  three  trips  may  be  ma<le  within  a  pei-iod  of 
eight  hours,  does  it  not? 

Mr,  Steinberger  :     I  don 't  know, 

Mr,  Sheean:  In  your  comparison  here,  did  you  figure  these 
rates  on  a  100  mile  basis  or  on  the  basis  of  actual  miles? 

Mr.  Steinberger  :  By  referring  to  page  111,  next  to  the  last 
paragraph,  it  states : 


454 

''Where  Kates  and  Percentages  shown  therein  are  based 
on  less  than  a  10-hour  day,  as  indicated,  the  jjercentages  of  in- 
crease are  more  ai)parent  than  real,  and  should  be  carefully  so 
considered. ' ' 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  let  us  take  that  Southern  Pacific  as  an 
example.  Under  their  present  eight  hour  day,  so-called,  in 
which  they  may  use  iin  engineer  or  fireman  on  three  trips  of  sixty 
miles  each,  made  witliin  the  eight  hour  period,  the  company 
would,  unck'r  that  schedule,  pay  for  one  hundred  and  eighty 
miles,  for  three  times  sixty  miles,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     1  presume  so. 

\\y.  Sheean:  Aik!,  under  tliis  schedule  which  you  propose, 
they  would  i)ay  for  tliree  hundred  miles,  or  three  days! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     I  don't  know  about  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  know  of  any  way,  in  which,  under 
the  Automatic  Eelease  rule,  there  would  be  any  possil)ility  of 
using  them  for  three  trips  and  adding  the  actual  mileage  to- 
gether? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  1  am  not  familiar  witli  tlie  application 
of  the  Automatic  Release  rule  at  all. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  you  do  know  in  this  comparison,  Mr. 
Steinberger,  that  the  Southern  Pacific  schedule  makes  pro\dsion 
for  using  engineers  or  firemen  for  three  trips  within  the  eight 
hour  period? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Xo,  1  don't  know  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  in  making  this  comparison  of  rates, 
did  you  extend  that  rate  as  though  it  were  on  a  one  hundred 
miles  l)asis? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  sir,  as  the  statement  says  in  the 
first  of  this  book,  "  Where  rates  and  i)ercentages  shown  here 
are  based  on  less  than  a  10-liour  day,  as  indicated,  the  per- 
centages of  increase  are  more  apparent  than  real."  That  is, 
we  did  not  take  into  consideration  any  number  of  hours.  It  was 
based  just  the  same  as  the  10-hour  loads. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  the  percentage  of  increase  or  de- 
crease— 

Mr.  Steinberger  (Interiupting)  :     AVorked  both  ways! 

Mr.  Sheean :     Worked  l)oth  ways. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     And  if,  under  the  Southern  Pacific  scliedule, 


455 

where  tliey  linve  an  eiglit-lioiir  day,  they  could  under  that  sched- 
ule, make  these  three  trips  and  pay  for  one  hundred  and  eighty 
miles,  and,  under  tlie  ])roposal,  would  be  reciuired  to  pay  for 
three  liundred  miles,  that  would  also  be  a  very  substantial  dif- 
ference, would  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  This,  then,  Mr.  Steinberger,  is  sim|)ly  a 
comparison  of  rates  with  no  consideration  whatever  of  the  basis 
to  which  any  of  them  is  apj^licable? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     None  whatever. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  as  to  this  Denver  &  Kio  Grande  schedule, 
al)out  which  some  questions  were  asked  as  to  the  four  lioni'  day 
or  the  mileage  basis,  and  the  minimum  guarantees,  you,  1  as- 
sume, have  made  the  best  comparison  that  you  c(nild  of  that 
kind  of  a  schedule  adapted  to  this  present  fonn  .' 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

]\[r.  Sheean :  Now,  when  you  speak,  Mr.  Steinberger,  of 
the  great  number  of  classifications  now  existing  on  the  different 
roads,  and  this  disparity  that  is  spoken  of  whereby  on  a  ten- 
wheel  engine  there  may  be  a  less  rate  of  pay  than  on  an  8-wheel 
engine,  all  of  those  bases  of  pay  on  the  different  roads  have 
been  arrived  at  by  mutual  agreement  between  the  organizations 
and  those  roads? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  I  presume  they  are  all  rates  that  have 
been  negotiated  by  the  committees  and  the  managements  of  the 
roads. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  these  schedules  that  you  speak  of,  that 
you  have  taken  these  rates  from,  are  the  agreement  of  the  men 
on  that  particular  road  with  the  management  of  that  road  as 
to  how  the  engines  on  that  road  should  be  classified  as  to  pay? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  it  shows  that  on  different  roads  engines 
that  may  weigh  the  same  amount  on  drivers,  may  be  given  a 
different  rating  as  to  basis  of  pay! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  it  is  true,  I  assume,  Mr.  Steinberger, 
that  from  your  railroad  experience  you  know  that  particular 
types  or  styles  of  engines  may  be  more  serviceable  upon  one 
kind  of  railroad  than  upon  a  railroad  operated  in  a  difTeront 
part  of  the  countiy,  better  adapted  to  the  ]ieculiaritics  of  that 
railroad  ? 


45(i 

Ml-.  StciiilnT^iT:  I  don't  kuow.  I  never  ran  or  tired  en- 
gines but  on  one  railroad. 

^fr.  Slieean:     And  where  was  that,  Mr.  Steinberger? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     On  the  Illinois  Central. 

Mr.  Slieean:     And  how  long  did  you  fire  there? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     About  two  and  a  half  years. 

Mr.  Slieean:     And  then  you  were  an  engineer? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.   Sheean:     About  how   long? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Four  or  five  years. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  how  old  are  you  now? 

^Iv.  Steinberger:     Thirty-eight. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Well,  from  an  examination  of  these  different 
schedules  it  is  apparent  that  tlie  different  classifieations  agreed 
upon  on  different  bases  have  been  in  existence  by  agreement 
between  the  employes  of  the  road  for  many  years. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Evidently. 

Mr.  Sheean:     I  think  that  is  all,  Mi-.  Steinberger. 

KE J )  1  H  KCT  EXAMINATK  )X. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Steinberger,  in  order  that  we  may  not  be 
misunderstood,  1  think  it  might  be  well  for  you  to  read  that 
special  infoiniatioii  y(m  compiled  there,  as  to  how  these  rates 
were  built  up,  on  j^age  3. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Page  8? 

:\Ir.  stone.     Yes. 

(Mr.  Steinberger  then  read  the  following  statement:) 

"This  Statemciil  has  been  prepared  to  show  what  is  the 
actual  increase  in  rates  of  wages  requested  in  the  Kngineers', 
Firemen's  and  Hostlers'  ])roposition  of  October  10,  1913,  for 
Engineers  and  Firemen  in  Passenger,  Freight  and  Switching 
Service.  To  accom])lisli  this  i)urpose  it  was  necessary  to  ascer- 
tain: 

(1) — The  late  jiaid  on  each  engine,  as  shown  in  the  sched- 
ules or  agreements  in  effect. 

(2) — The  weight  on  drivers  of  such  engines,  and  grouping 
them  as  in  the  proposition. 

(3) — The  ])ercentage  of  increase   (if  any)   requested. 

The  Engineers'  and  Firemen's  rates  shown  hen'in  do  not 


457 

include  the  'junior  rate'  in  effect  on  some  railroads  where  En- 
gineers are  not  paid  regular  Engineers'  rate  and  Firemen  are 
not  paid  regular  Firemen's  rates  until  they  have  served  as  such 
a  specified  time. 

These  statements  dt)  not  show  the  "differential"  pai«l  ou 
some  railroads  to  Engineers  and  Firemen  because  of  the 
gradient,  where  usually  a  certain  percentage  of  increase  above 
these  rates  is  allowed  on  account  of  heavy  grades. 

These  statements  are  intended  to  include  only  the  'rates' 
of  pay  and  do  not  show  either  the  rate  of  overtime  or  when  o\'er- 
time  begins. 

The  rates  shown  herein  are  limited  to  '  L*assenger,' 
'Through  Freight'  and  'Switching.'  The  wage  schedules  on 
a  number  of  the  railroads  included  herein  give  a  rate  for  all 
engines  in  Switching  Service,  but  in  these  statements  an  effort 
has  been  made  to  include  only  rates  in  Switching  Service  for 
the  engines  commonly  used  therein. 

The  wage  schedules  on  a  number  of  the  railroads  included 
herein  do  not  show  a  rate  for  both  Passenger  and  Through 
Freight  Service  for  all  engines,  but  in  order  to  show  what  the 
rates  would  be  on  all  engines,  regardless  of  whether  used  in 
passenger  or  through  freight  service,  the  rates  for  all  engines 
in  both  Passenger  and  Through  Freight  Service  are  shown 
herein. 

AVlien  Rates  and  Percentages  shown  herein  are  based  on 
less  than  a  10-hour  day,  as  indicated,  the  percentages  of  increase 
are  more  apparent  than  real,  and  should  be  carefully  so  con- 
sidered. 

Rates  and  Percentages  shown  herein  for  Firemen  are  for 
Coal  Burning  Engines.  Rates  are  15  cents  less  i)er  day  than 
herein  shown,  on  all  Oil  Burning  Engines  wherever  used  in 
Through  Freight  Service,  except  on  Simi)le  Engines  having 
cylinders  24  inches  or  over  in  diameter,  and  on  Coni])ound  En- 
gines weighing  215,000  pounds  or  more  on  drivers,  and  on  Mal- 
let Engines,  wdien  the  oil  rate  is  the  same  as  the  coal  rate." 

"All  information  concerning  Wages  and  Working  Condi- 
tions of  Engineers,  Firemen  and  Hostlers  not  shown  iicrcin  ap- 
pears in  other  statements  pre])ared  in  connection  liercwitli." 

Mr.  Stone:     Rea-ardin-'  this  next  statement  thnt  yen  make 


458 

here,  Mr.  Steinberger,  in  regard  to  the  ten  hour  day  ou  through 
freight  service :  to  the  best  of  your  knowledge  in  carefully  eheck- 
inu-  over  these  schedules,  do  vou  lielieve  that  to  be  correct? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Passing  down  to  the  next  list,  where  you  give 
a  list  of  the  railroads  having  a  considerable  number  of  oil  l)urn- 
ing  engines,  where  you  speak  of  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa 
Fe,  Eastern  and  AVestern  Lines,  do  you  mean  to  convey  the  in- 
formation that  they  have  all  oil  burners,  or  only  part? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Only  part,  imless  it  is  so  stated. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  have  no  knowledge  of  how  many  engines 
in  each  class! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Well,  that  brings  us  back  to  the  same  old  ques- 
tion of  these  engines  and  class.  From  your  personal  knowledge 
you  could  not  make  an  affidavit  today,  could  you,  that  there  is 
a  single  engine  in  operation  on  any  railroad? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr,  Stone :  Still  to  the  best  of  your  belief  they  are  using 
engines  of  some  class,  both  freight  and  passenger? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  The  nearest  I  have  seen  is  the  blueprint, 
the  closest  I  was  ever  to  them. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  say  practically  all  oil.  "^AHiat  do  you  mean 
bv  that? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Practically  all  locomotives  in  the  service 
of  the  company  are  oil  burners. 

Mr.  Stone:     In  road  service,  do  you  mean? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     Or  used  in  switching  service,  too? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  Well,  in  fact  all.  Now,  you  take  the  San 
Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass,  while  1  notice  here  that  it  says  prac- 
ticallv  all  oil,  it  does  not  follow  that  it  is  to  be  understood  that 
all  engines  on  the  road,  including  pum]ung  engines,  water  tanks, 
are  oil  burners. 

Mr.  Stone:     No  coal  used  for  fuel  at  all? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     None  at  all. 

Mr.  Stone:     On  that  road? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Tliat  is  vour  information? 


459 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  sir.  How  true  that  is,  I  really  don't 
know. 

Mr.  Stone:  Coming  back  to  that  question  of  that  rate  on 
the  Santa  Fe  between  Pueblo  and  Denver — page  2  T  think  it  is — 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  happen  to  be  fairly  familiar  with  that  terri- 
tory. If  it  could  be  shown  that  that  grade  is  only  76  feet  to 
the  mile,  that  would  not  take  a  mountain  rate,  of  course.  It 
would  be  the  valley  rate? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  I  don't  know  the  method  of  computing 
the  grade. 

Mr.  Stone:    Well,  it  is  less  than  1.8. 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Well,  if  it  is  less  than  1.8  that  would 
not  take  the  increased  rate  of  10  per  cent  over  the  rate  shown 
here.    The  rate  would  be  exactly  as  shown  here. 

Mr.  Stone:     The  rates  would  be  exactly  as  shown  here  then? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Referring  to  that  Southern  Pacific  run  where 
they  are  going  to  go  out  and  make  three  sixty-mile  trips  in 
eight  hours,  do  you  believe  it  is  possible,  under  the  present  sys- 
tem, for  a  freight  crew  to  go  out  and  make  three  turn-around 
trips  of  sixty  miles  each  in  eight  hours? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     I  have  never  seen  it  done. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  these  rates,  with  all  the 
differentials  that  are  shown,  are  really  built  up  through  con- 
ference with  the  different  operating  officials,  and  they  depend 
largely  on  the  generosity  of  the  officials  as  to  whether  or  not 
you  get  an  increase  when  you  come  to  go  in? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     I  presume  that  is  the  case,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Has  that  not  been  your  experience  in  com- 
mittee work? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     I  never  had  any  committee  work. 

Mr.  Stone:     Never  any  committee  work? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Lucky  man. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  compiling  these  rates,  how  many  roads  did 
you  find  that  carry  a  junior  rate  for  engineers? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Three. 

Mr.  Stone:     Three  roads? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 


460 

Ml.  Stoiir:  C\)ul(l  Villi  it'i-all  them  witliout  chocking  up 
voiir  iiotos? 

Mr.  Stciiibcrgvr:  Yes,  sir;  Chicago  &  Nortli  Western;  Chi- 
cago, St.  Paul,  Minneapolis  «S:  Omalia,  and  the  Minneapolis,  St. 
Paul  and  Sault  8te.  jSlarie. 

Mr.  StdiH':  I  s''e  the  cliairnian  of  the  conference  com- 
mittee of  th«'  railroads  sliaking  liis  liead,  so  you  must  be  mis- 
taken on  his  road. 

i\rr.  Steijiberger :     Tt  must  be. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  how  inaii\'  roads  did  yon  find  a  junior  rate 
for  firemen :' 

Mr.  Steinberger:     One. 

Mr.  Stone:     Wliicli  one  was  that? 

Mr.  Steinl)erger:     The  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy. 

Mr.  Stone:     The  Chicago,  P)Urlington  c^  Quincy? 

Mr.  Steinljcrger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  How  long  does  a  man  liave  to  fire  before  he 
becomes  a  full-fledged  fireman? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  "  P'iremen,  during  their  first  six  months 
euiph)yment  as  such,  except  experienced  firemen,  will  be  classed 
as  junior  firemen,  and  will  ))e  paid  90  per  cent  of  the  rates 
shown  herein." 

Mr.  Stone:     For  how  long? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     The  first  six  months. 

Mr.  Stone:  Have  you  the  information  there  in  regard  to 
the  junior  rates  for  the  engineers,  how  long? 

Mr.  Stein))erger:     Yes,  indeed. 

Mr.  Stone:     Will  you  read  it  to  us,  please? 

Mr.  Steinl)erger:  Yes,  sir.  Take  the  Chicago,  St.  Paul, 
Minneapolis  &  Omalia: 

**  Promoted  engineers  will  be  paid  80  per  cent  of  rates  sho^vIl 
herein  for  first  year  as  engineers.  Year  to  date  from  time  of 
doing  first  running.  This  rate  not  to  apjily  to  yard  or  transfer 
service." 

Mr.  Stone:     ^Vllat  does  the  Chicago  &,  North  Western  do! 

Mr.  Sheean :  Y^ou  mean  what  thev  do,  or  what  the  schedule 
shows,  ^fr.  Stone  ?  There  may  be  some  difference  betw^een  the 
two. 

Mr.  Stone:  There  generally  is — on  the  side  of  the  com- 
pany. 


461 

Mr.  Stciiilx'igor:  "  First  year  promoted  engineers  receive 
80  per  cent  of  rates  shown  in  the  schedule." 

I  will  take  the  Soo  Line.  I  do  not  believe  I  could  quote  the 
rule  for  the  Soo  Line.    Yes,  here  it  is. 

"Promoted  engineers  foi*  first  year's  service  receive  80 
per  cent  of  first  class  pay.    Not  to  apply  to  yard  service." 

Mr.  Trenholm:  If  1  may  be  pardoned,  mil  you  give  mfe 
the  date  of  that  schedule? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  The  Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  &  Sault  Ste. 
Marie ! 

Mr.  Trenholm:     No,  the  Omaha. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :     I  will  be  very  glad  to  learn  that  it  is  not  true. 

Mr.  Steinberger :  December  24,  1910,  the  date  of  the  Chi- 
cago Engineers'  Agreement. 

Mr.  Trenholm:  I  will  state  that  I  will  advise  the  Board 
on  that,  but  my  impression  is  that  that  was  abolished  by  a  rul- 
ing some  four  years  ago,  and  that  we  pay  standard  pay  from 
the  date  of  the  engineers'  promotion. 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Although  the  rule  still  appears  in  the 
schedule  ? 

Mr.  Trenholm:     The  rule  still  appears  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Stone :  Then,  Mr.  Steinberger,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  this 
indicates  that  on.  these  three  particular  roads,  they  are  not  as 
liberal  in  tlieir  pay  to  enginemen  as  the  other  roads  in  this  west- 
ern territory? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Two,  you  mean,  now? 

Mr.  Stone :     Well,  two,  I  should  say  then. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  just  want  to  ask  one  more  question  of  Mr. 
Steinberger. 

Getting  back  to  that  Santa  Fe  rate  out  around  Pueblo,  I 
believe  you  stated  that  if  the  grade  there  did  not  reach  1.8  per 
cent,  the  rates  requested,  if  granted,  would  apply  just  as  the)^ 
appear  in  this  tabulation? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir,  exactly. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  will  you  turn  to  the  Atchison,  Toi)eka 
&  Santa  Fe  Lines  on  page  7,  or  rather,  first,  on  page  5,  I  would 
call  your  attention  to  the  engines  appearing  in  the  grou]i  170,- 
000  pounds  to  200,000  pounds,  the  Consols. 


462 

Mr.  Stcinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr."  Pliillips:  One  Consol.  pays  $3.30,  the  otber  $3.75  to 
firemen  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliillips :  I  understand  the  $3.75  rate  is  made,  because, 
as  indicated  by  the  star  following  the  abbreviation  "Consol.," 
the  engine  is  a  Compound,  having  cylinders  24  inches  and  over 
in  diameter,  I  should  say  a  simple  engine  having  cylinders  24 
inches  and  over  in  diameter. 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes,  sir.  Those  three  engines — the  first 
Consol.  engine  is  the  789  class;  the  second  with  the  star  is  the 
798  class ;  the  Prairie  type  in  the  same  group  is  the  1800  class. 
That  is  the  way  they  are  classed  by  the  Atchison,  Topeka  & 
Santa  Fe  Company. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then,  the  Prairie  type  of  compound,  weigh- 
ing less  than  215,000  pounds  on  drivers,  carries  a  rate  of  $3.30, 
and  the  Consol.,  weighing  within  that  same  limit  (170,000  to 
200,000  pounds)  not  having  a  cylinder  24  inches  in  diameter, 
carries  a  rate  of  $3.30? 

Mr.  Steinberger:    Yes. 

Mr.  Pliillips  :  And  the  increase  requested  on  those  engines, 
the  per  cent  of  increase  of  the  two  $3.30  engines,  would  be  13.64 
per  cent? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But  no  increase  is  requested  on  the  Consol., 
having  a  24  inch  cylinder? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  No,  sir.  On  some  roads  Consol.  engines 
all  pay  the  $3.75  rate,  regardless  of  the  size  of  cylinders.  The 
Northern  Pacific,  for  instance. 

Mr.  Phillips  :     In  freight  service  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     In  freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  turn  to  the  Chicago  &  North  Western 
on  page  41,  please.  Well,  first,  these  figures  which  I  read  from 
the  Santa  Fe  on  page  5  apply  from  Chicago  west,  do  they  not, 
until  you  reach  the  territory  where  mountain  rates  begin  on 
the  Santa  Fe  lines? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Those  distances  were  furnished  me  by 
the  chairman  of  the  committees  on  that  road,  and  not  being 
familiar  with  the  physical  character  of  the  road,  or  anything  of 
the  kind,  I  could  not  say. 

Mr.  Phillips :    Well,  but  just  taking  your  total,  Mr.  Stein- 


46 


bei'ger,  which  I  understood  yoii  to   say  was  taken  from  the 
schedules — 

Mr.  Steinberger :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Of  the  companies  f 

Mr.  Steinberger:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  .Chicago  to  Canon  City,  and  Wellington  to 
Waynoka? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  That  is  not  territory  around  Pueblo  that  we 
were  discussing  a  moment  ago? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  No,  it  seems  not,  as  the  next  distance  is 
shown.  If  there  is  a  distance  shown  between  Puebk:)  and  Den- 
ver, I  would  suppose  that  began  the  distance. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  understand  that  to  be  the  district  run- 
ning out  of  Chicago.    It  says  '^ Chicago  west." 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Phillips :  Now,  turn  to  Chicago  &  Nortli  Western  on 
page  41.  That  is  hi  the  same  territory,  about,  that  the  Santa  Fe 
falls,  as  far  as  the  Missouri  Biver  anyway,  perhaps  west,  for 
some  distance.    It  is  all  in  the  Missouri  Valley,  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips  :     You  would  so  understand  it  ? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Well,  apparently  the  Chicago  &  North  West- 
ern has  no  Consols.  Aveighing  170,000  pounds  to  200,000  jiounds 
on  drivers,  but  they  have  one  weighing  140,000  to  170,000  pounds 
on  drivers,  much  smaller. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  Consols.,  they  liave  not. 

Mr.  Phillips:     It  is  a  Pacific  type? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli]xs:     Well,  it  is  an  engine? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Weighing  within  that  group! 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Now,  the  rate  there  is  $3.()0. 

Mr.  Steinlierger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s:     And  the  per  cent  of  increase,  if  the  inci-o:i 
requested  were  granted,  would  be  $1.39? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  turn  to  (Miicago,  Burlington  &  (^uincy 
on  page  44.    We  have  Prairie  ty])e  engines,  Pacific  tyix-  engines, 


464 

and  also  C.'ousol.  \\\>v  cii^iiu's,  140,000  pounds  to  170,000  |)ounds, 
paying  $:i.()0  for  tironien  there,  liave  we  not? 

Mr.  Steinl)erij:er:     Yes,  sir. 

^Ir.  l^liillips:  And  the  rate  per  cent  of  increase  recpiested 
is$l.:i9? 

Mr.  Steinherger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:     1.39  per  cent? 

Mr,   vSteinherger :     Yes,  the  same  as   the   North   Western. 

Mr.  ['hillii)s:  Xow,  turn  to  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St. 
Paul  on  page  50,  Take  the  Consols,  witliin  tliat  same  class, 
170,000  to  200,000. 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Y"es,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Tt  ai>pears  that  the  present  freight  rate  there 
is  $3.50  for  firemen? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir, 

Mr,  Phillips :  The  increase  requested  there,  if  granted, 
would  amount  to  7.14  per  cent,  I  have  selected  these  roads,  Mr. 
Steinberger,  l)elieving  that  they  operated  in  territory  similar  to 
tliat  th)-ougli  wliicii  tlie  Santa  Vo  runs  west  out  of  Chicago. 

Mr.  Stciulx'rger :     Yos,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  of  any  reason  why  these  same 
engines  should  iiol  pay  the  same  rate  as  ))aid  on  tlie  Santa  Fe,  as 
is  general  1\    i)aid  on  other  roads? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  AVould  not  those  figures  indicate,  that, 
instead  of  (piite  a  large  increase  being  asked  for  the  Santa  Fe 
Road,  that  that  road  has  enjoyed  a  very  low  rate,  has  secured 
the  services  of  its  firemen  at  a  very  low  rate  per  cent  of  the 
rate  thai  is  now  being  ])aid  on  other  railroads? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Ml-.  lMiilli))s:  Most  of  the  roads  ojx'rating  in  llic  same  ter- 
ritory. ii(»t  in  iiiounlaiu  tci  ritoiy,  but  in  similar  teri'itory  through 
llic  Mississippi  Valley,  are  now  i»aying  nearly  as  much,  if  not 
quite  as  much,  as  is  now  being  recpiested? 

Mr.  Steinl)erg('i-:     It  a]>i)ears  that  way,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillii»s:  P>ul  the  Santa  Fe  is  considerably  below  on 
the  same  class  of  engines? 

Mr.  Steinb(>rger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  Then,  it  is  because  of  another  one  of  those 
low  spots,  that  this  ai)parent  increase  of  13.64  ])er  cent  shown 
on  tlie  Santa  Fe  lines  for  this  })articular  class  of  engine,  and 


465 

an  increase  of  1.39  per  ,cent  shows  on  some  of  the  other  roads 
operating  through  the  same  territory? 

Mr.  Steinberger:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  would  like  to  ask  one  more  question,  if  I 
might. 

Have  you  the  rates  and  the  blueprints  that  these  were  com- 
piled from,  so  that  if  the  representatives  of  the  Managers  desire 
to  check  up  with  you,  that  they  can  be  checked  over? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

RE-CROSS  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Steinberger,  having  those  three  roads  be- 
fore you  there,  the  Santa  Fe,  the  Chicago  &  North  Western  and 
the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  about  which  the  last  ques- 
tion was  asked  you  by  Mr.  Phillips,  having  that  alone,  and 
without  knowing  any  other  provision  than  the  schedule  of  any 
one  of  those  three  companies,  with  reference  to  when  the  day 
begins  and  ends,  with  reference  to  whether  there  be  or  be  not 
initial  or  final  terminal  de\aj,  as  to  whether  there  be  or  be  not 
preparatory  time  allowance,  are  you  able  to  tell  which  one  of 
the  schedules  of  those  three  roads  will  pay  the  most  money  to 
the  engineers  and  firemen  who  have  a  one  hundred  and  twenty 
mile  run? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  I  will  say  that,  while  I  do  not  know  what 
the  schedule  provisions  are  in  regard  to  terminal  delay,  or  any 
of  those  trimmings,  by  simply  taking  the  rates  as  they  are,  it 
is  evident  that  the  North  Western  and  the  Milwaukee  pay  a 
much  higher  rate  for  that  class  of  engine. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Steinberger,  assuming  that  all  of  the 
provisions  as  to  when  a  day  begins  and  ends,  overtime  basis, 
initial  and  final  terminal  delay,  are  the  same,  of  course  we  will 
agree  that  if  that  high  rate  lie  applied  to  a  uniform  basis,  that 
the  higher  rate  will  produce  the  greater  jiay. 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  Mr.  Steinberger,  without  knowing  any-, 
thing  about  the  provisions  of  unj  one  of  those  schedules  as  to 
whether  one  does,  and  the  other  does  not,  make  provisions  as  to 
when  the  day  begins;  without  knowing  whether  they  do  or  do 
not  make  the  same  provisions  as  to  the  beginning  and  ending 
of  the  day;  as  to  whether  they  do  or  do  not  make  any  ])rovision 


466 

with  reference  to  preparatory  time,  initial  or  final  terminal  de- 
lay; are  you  able,  from  merely  knowing  the  rate  and  having  no 
knowledge  of  the  other  facts  that  enter  into  a  schedule,  able  to 
state  which  one  of  those  rates  will  produce  the  greatest  com- 
pensation in  runs  of  equal  length  from  Chicago? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  In  preparing  this  statement  as  stated  on 
the  first  pages,  no  consideration  was  taken,  whatever,  as  to  when 
overtime  begins. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Steinberger,  as  I  understood  your  an- 
swer to  Mr.  Phillips'  last  question,  you  indicated  or  intimated 
that  the  Santa  Fe  was  paying  less  to  its  men  for  service  out 
of  Chicago  than  the  other  roads  were. 

.  Mr.  Steinberger:     As  shown  by  this  exhibit. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  is  assuming  that  the  other  provis- 
ions of  the  schedule  that  do  operate  in  a  compensatory  w^ay  are 
identical. 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Well,  this  exhibit  is  not  based  at  all  on 
overtime,  and  has  no  reference  wliatever  to  overtime  rules  on 
the  Santa  Fe  or  the  C.  B.  &  Q.  or  the  North  Western,  either, 
as  far  as  that  is  concerned. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  without  having  some  knowledge  of  these 
other  rules,  you  could  not  tell  which  would  produce  the  largest 
sum  of  money  on  a  run  of  equal  length  out  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  No  further  than  what  this  exhibit  has  to 
show. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Mr.  Steinberger,  all  of  the  roads  which  I  have 
named  in  asking  my  questions  are  ten  hour  roads,  are  they  not, 
ten  miles  per  hour  road  for  freight  service? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Ten  hours  a  day,  yes,  sir.  They  are  not 
shown  in  this  table  shorter  than  the  ten  hour  day. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  Kock  Island  could  be  included,  could  it 
not,  as  having  a  rate  of  $3.60  for  a  Consol.  engine  of  that  type? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Could  not  the  comparison  be  carried  into 
other  territory  and  include  the  Union  Pacific,  which  also  paral- 
lels the  Santa  Fe  west  of  the  Missouri  Eiver,  or  in  a  measure 
runs  through  the  same  territory,  and  perhaps  include  other 
roads  through  the  Northwest,  where  the  $3.60  rate  would  apply, 
where  the  $3.25  applies  to  the  Santa  Fe? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  Any  road  except  the  ones  sho^vIl  in  this 
group  having  shorter  than  a  ten  hour  day. 


467 

Mr.  Phillips ;  Now,  if  it  could  be  shown  that  the  initial  and 
terminal  delay,  or  the  ''trimmings"  as  you  characterize  them, 
are  less  favorable  on  the  Santa  Fe  than  on  any  of  these  other 
roads,  on  any  one  of  them,  or  on  some  of  them,  could  you  under- 
stand that  not  only  was  the  rate  of  pay  higher  on  these  other 
roads,  but  the  other  perquisites  were  also  much  to  the  firemen's 
advantage? 

Mr.  Steinberger :  If  I  knew  that  such  was  the  case,  Avhy, 
certainly. 

Mr.  Phillips:     But  you  do  not  know! 

Mr.  Steinberger:     No. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But  if  that  could  be  shown,  you  would  have 
no  hesitancy  in  saying  that  the  rates  were  much  better,  but 
the  conditions  of  service  were  likewise  better? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  By  conditions  of  service  I  refer  to  these 
''trimmings"  Avhich  you  include  in  the  general  category? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  PhilliiDS :     I  think  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  Mr.  Steinberger,  you  must  and  do  al- 
ways consider  the  trimmings  and  perquisites  in  connection  with 
the  price  paid  to  firemen,  both  what  it  means  to  the  company 
and  to  the  men? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     I  would  say  so,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel :  You  do  not  Avant  them  to  be  regarded  as  trim- 
mings merely,  because  they  constitute  a  substantial  part  of  your 
claim,  don't  they? 

Mr.  Steinberger :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  those  working  conditions 
which  you  desig-nate  as  "trimmings"  are  really  a  part  of  what 
have  been  granted  to  the  men  in  order  to  make  up  a  legitimate 
day's  work? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Yes.  They  are  schedule  provisions 
negotiated  the  same  as  the  rates. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  thej^  have  always  been  so  considered  in 
making  up  the  part  of  the  men's  compensation? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     For  the  day's  work? 

Mr.  Steinberger:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  could  not  tell  by  looking  at  the  rate  on 
those  three  roads,  could  you,  which  engine  would  be  the  easiest 
to  fire,  or  which  one  you  would  rather  take  out? 


468 

Mr.  Steiuberger:  No,  sir,  I  have  been  out  of  service  so  long 
I  would  not  care  to  say  that. 

Mr.  Stone :  Well,  if  by  checking  up  these  rules  or  working 
conditions  that  they  speak  of,  it  could  be  shown  that  the  Santa 
Fe  is  much  less  liberal  than  the  other  two,  you  would  agree  that 
it  was  not  as  good  a  job,  would  you  not? 

Mr.  Steinberger:  Oh,  it  would  make  the  variation  wider 
in  favor  of  the  other  roads,  of  course. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Sheeau :  Just  one  question,  Mr.  Steinberger.  You  said 
it  was  so  long  since  you  have  been  out  of  service.  How  long 
since  you  quit  running  an  engine? 

Mr.  Steinberger:     1904. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Shea:  Mr.  Steinberger,  speaking  about  these  "trim- 
mings," it  does  not  necessarily  mean  that  even  on  a  road  that 
allows  initial  or  terminal  delay  that  the  engineer  and  fireman 
will  draw  wages  from  that  rule  every  trip,  does  it? 

^\v.  Steinberger:     Oh,  I  wouldn't  think  so,  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea :  AVeli,  it  is  possible  for  an  engineer  and  fireman 
to  go  out  and  come  back,  day  in  and  day  out,  week  in  and  week 
out,  month  in  and  month  out,  without  making  a  cent,  so  far  as  it 
applies  to  initial  or  terminal  delay,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Steinberger:    Yes,  sir,  and  also  including  overtime. 

The  Chairman:     Is  that  all?    Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  Stone :  Mr.  Chairman,  in  view  of  the  fact  that  it  is  only 
a  few  minutes  more,  if  it  is  agreeable  to  the  Board,  we  would 
much  prefer  not  to  put  our  next  witness  on  until  the  next  session, 
because  it  is  going  to  be  a  long  drawn  out  affair  with  our  next 
witness,  and  it  will  take  all  day  at  least.  However,  we  are  ready 
to  go  on  if  it  is  the  wish  of  the  Board.  I  simply  offer  that  as  a 
suggestion,  because  I  know  we  are  not  going  to  meet  tomorrow. 

The  Chairman:  I  think  we  shall  save  time  in  the  long  run 
by  adopting  your  suggestion. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  understand  that  when  we  adjourn  we  do  not 
meet  again  until  Monday  morning.    Is  that  correct? 

The  Chairman :  That  is  correct.  The  Board  will  adjourn 
until  10  0  'clock  Monday  morning. 

(Whereupon,  at  4:25  o'clock  P.  M.,  December  4,  1914,  an  ad- 
journment was  taken  until  10  o'clock  A.  M.,  December  7,  1914.) 


469 


IN  THE  MATTER  OF  THE 

ARBITRATION 
between  the 
WESTERN  RAILWAYS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 
ENGINEERS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD    OF    LOCOMOTIVE    FIRE- 
MEN AND  ENGINEMEN 

under  the  Act  approved  July  15,  1913,  by  agree- 
ment dated  August  3,  1914. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  December  7,  1914. 

Met  pursuant  to  adjournment  at  10  o'clock  A.  M. 

Present:     Arbitrators  and  parties  as  before. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Mr.  Carter,  will  you  take  the  stand,  please f 

W.  S.  CARTER  was  recalled  for  further  examination,  and 
having  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Trenholm:  I  would  like  to  make  a  statement  to  the 
Board.  On  Friday,  in  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Steinberger,  the 
Omaha  schedule  was  questioned,  and  I  promised  to  look  it  up  and 
see  whether  any  change  had  been  made  in  the  rule  as  it  is  written 
in  the  1910  schedule.  I. find  I  was  in  error,  that  that  rule  applies 
today.  What  misled  me  was  the  fact  that  a  little  earlier  we  had 
made  a  modification  of  that  rule  exempting  yard  men  and  trans- 
fer men. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  would  understand  that  you  do  still  have  a 
junior  rate  for  road  men  on  the  Omaha  road? 

Mr.  Trenholm :    As  the  rule  reads,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  have  you  prepared  some  data 
showing  the  comparative  hourly  rates  of  pay,  as  between  en- 
gineers and  firemen  and  employes  in  other  leading  industries  in 
the  Western  territory? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  have. 

Mr.  Phillips:     I  have  here,  Mr.  Carter,  a  volume  entitled 

9^ 


470 

** Rates  of  Wages  Per  Hour,  Increase  in  Rates  of  Wages  Per 
Hour,  and  Hours  of  Service  Per  Day— In  Western  States  and 
Provinces."  Do  you  identify  this  as  the  volume  prepared  by 
yourself? 

Mr.  Carter:     1  do. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  pleases,  I  desire  to  introduce 
this  as  exliil)it  No.  5. 

(The  document  so  otfered  and  identified  was  received  in 
evidence  and  thereui)on  marked  "Employes'  Exhibit  No.  5, 
December  7,  1914.") 

Mr.  Phillips :  Will  you  please  explain  the  purpose  of  this 
exhibit? 

Mr.  Carter :  The  purpose  is  set  forth  in  the  first  subdivi- 
sion here,  which  I  shall  read : 

"The  information  published  in  this  statement  is  i)rimarily 
for  the  purpose  of  demonstrating : 

"  (1)  That  rate  of  wages  of  Locomotives  Engineers,  Fire- 
men and  Hostlers  have  been  and  are  now  less  than  rates  of 
wages  paid  in  other  leading  industries ; 

''(2)  That  Locomotive  Engineers,  Firemen  and  Hostlers 
have  received  less  increase  in  wages,  1914  over  1907,  and  1914 
over  1910  than  have  emploj^es  in  other  leading  industries. 

''(3)  That  a  'day's  work'  required  of  Locomotive  En- 
gineers, Firemen  and  Hostlers  is  greater  than  is  required  by 
employes  in  other  leading  industries ; 

*'(4)  That,  while  required  to  work  hours  far  in  excess  of 
employes  in  other  industries,  Locomotive  Engineers,  Firemen 
and  Hostlers  receive  much  less  compensation  for  'overtime.'" 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  you,  in  ])reparing  this  work,  compiled 
some  basic  tallies  from  which  this  information  may  be  derived? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  have  some  tables  in  here  that  may  be  termed 
"basic,"  but  of  course  you  understand  that  they  are  derived 
from  supporting  data ;  that  is  from  other  authorities.  To  that 
extent  they  are  derivative  tables ;  but  so  far  as  the  use  in  this 
report  is  concerned  they  are  basic  tables. 

Mr.  Phillips :  For  the  purpose  of  explanation,  Mr.  Carter, 
will  you  ])lease  turn  to  page  18  of  this  exhibit,  table  7,  "Increase 
in  rates  of  wages  per  hour  of  Locomotive  Engineers  and  Fire- 
men in  freight  service  of  western  railroads,  from  1907  to  Novem- 


471 

ber  1,  1914,"  will  you  kindly  explain  the  method  used  in  prepar- 
ing this  table? 

Mr.  Carter:  An  attempt,  in  the  beginning-,  was  made  to 
include  all  railroads ;  but  inasmuch  as  this  research  is  limited  to 
the  rates  of  wages  per  hour,  we  found  it  necessary  to  eliminate 
certain  roads,  because  of  the  complications  that  would  arise 
should  we  include  them  in  this  list. 

For  instance,  we  first  had  the  Canadian  Northern  and  then 
eliminated  it,  because  on  the  Canadian  Northern  they  have  a 
nine-hour  day ;  and  in  order  to  avoid  as  many  complicated  situa- 
tions as  possible  we  removed  from  Table  7  the  Canadian  North- 
ern Railroad. 

We  have  several  eight-hour  days.  That  is,  we  have  several 
roads  where  they  have  the  eight-hour  day,  and  there  might  be 
some  question  as  to  what  the  rate  of  wages  was  per  hour  when 
compared  with  ten-hour  rates.  Therefore,  we  eliminated  those 
roads. 

We  have  one  road  in  particular  where  the  rate  of  wages  is 
on  the  trip  basis.  That  is,  they  get  so  much  money  for  going 
from  one  terminal  to  another. 

We  reached  the  conclusion,  or  at  least  I  did,  that  to  attempt 
to  include  those  railroads  would  only  bring  up  discussions  that 
would  not  be  beneficial. 

I  think  on  the  pages  from  18  to  58  you  will  find  thirty  ten- 
hour  roads  reported. 

The  first  column,  which  is  the  same  on  each  page  for  the 
thirty  railroads,  shows  the  railroads  and  the  classes  of  the 
engines  in  use. 

We  not  only  show  the  railroads,  but,  where  the  same  rate 
is  not  paid  on  all  portions  of  the  same  railroad,  we  show  the 
different  districts. 

In  order  to  present  information  from  a  different  viewpoint 
than  was  shown  in  Exhibit  4,  presented  Friday  afternoon,  I  have 
described  the  locomotives  in  this  first  column  just  as  they  ap]iear 
in  the  official  schedules. 

For  instance,  taking  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  east- 
ern and  western  lines,  Chicago  &  Canon  City,  including  l)ranclies, 
the  first  engine  reported  there  is  an  eight-wheel  engine. 

In  this  exhibit  there  is  no  attempt  even  to  intimate  how  large 


472 

that  eight-wheel  engine  is.  Of  conrse,  the  rate  being  low,  indi- 
cates that  the  engine  is  small. 

The  next  yon  will  find  is  a  ten-wheel  engine,  less  than  100,- 
000  pounds  on  drivers. 

Now,  yon  will  note  from  that,  that  on  this  road  at  least,  and 
on  some  other  roads  they  may  classify  one  engine  by  its  poinilar 
name,  and  the  very  next  engine  by  its  proper  name  and  make 
the  dividing  point  by  weights  on  drivers. 

The  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  Railroad  being  the  first 
in  the  alphabetical  list,  appears  first  here.  There  was  no  pur- 
pose whatever  in  presenting  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe 
for  any  reason  not  shown  in  the  fact  that  in  any  alphabetical  list 
of  railroads  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  appears  first.  In 
some  lists  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  Coast  Lines  appear 
before  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  Eastern  and  Western 
lines,  because  ' '  C "  comes  ahead  of  "  E ; "  but,  in  this  instance, 
considering  that  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  eastern  lines 
are  perhaps  the  parent  company,  we  have  included  them  first. 

The  Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe  is  also  a  subsidiary  line  and 
a  part  of  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  but  in  this  list  we 
have  placed  it  under  the  letter  G  instead  of  under  the  letter  A. 

I  think  you  will  find  in  the  next  column  that  the  engines  here 
reported  are  identically  the  same  as  reported  in  the  schedules. 

You  will  note,  hoAvever,  that  in  this  list  of  engines  appearing 
for  the  Chicago  &  Canon  City,  including  branches,  have  taken 
both  from  the  engineers'  schedule  and  from  the  firemen's 
schedule. 

Where  you  see  a  list  of  rates  extending  across  the  entire 
page,  it  indicates  that  the  engine  is  classified  in  both  the  en- 
gineers' and  firemen's  schedule  the  same;  but  where  you  find  a 
leader  line  for  the  engineers  and  rates  for  the  firemen,  or  vice 
versa,  it  indicates  that  there  is  a  difference  in  the  manner  in 
which  these  engines  are  described  in  the  Engineers'  and  Fire- 
men's schedules.  But  if  you  will  take  the  Engineers'  schedule 
and  the  Firemen's  schedule  you  will  note  all  of  those  descrip- 
tions therein. 

Turning  from  that  page,  to  others,  you  will  find  that  we 
continue  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  then  next  give  the 
Pueblo  and  Denver  division,  then  the  LaJunta  and  Raton,  Las 
Vegas  and  Albuquerque,  then  south  of  Albuquerque  and  Clo\ds 


473 

and  Belen,  then  the  Starkville,  Hebron,  Blossbiirg  and  Waldo 
bl'anches ;  bnt  in  the  Santa  Fe  district  you  will  note,  when  com- 
paring the  Santa  Fe  rates  with  other  roads,  that  they  have  prac- 
tically different  schedules  for  different  sections  of  the  same 
road.  It  requires  a  considerable  number  of  pages  to  show  the 
rates  of  wages  for  the  different  schedules  on  the  Santa  Fe  lines, 
while  such  roads  as  the  Chicago,  Burlingion  &  Quincy,  which  I 
consider  equally  as  important  a  road,  perhaps  employing  prac- 
tically as  many  men,  it  only  takes  half  a  page  to  tell  the  whole 
story. 

You  will  note  by  turning  back  to  page  18  that  there  are 
two  general  columns,  each  subdivided  into  five  columns;  or, 
rather,  under  the  Engineers'  heading  you  will  find  five  columns, 
while  under  the  Firemen's  heading  you  will  find  six  columns. 

The  first  column  for  both  the  Engineers  and  Firemen  shows 
the  rates  of  wages  per  hour  that  appeared  in  the  schedules  of 
wages  in  1907,  after  the  settlements  or  wage  agreements  of  that 
year. 

The  first  column  under  Engineers  and  the  first  column  under 
Firemen,  except  where  i't  says  "fuel"  there,  are  the  rates  that 
appeared  in  effect  in  1907.  These  are  taken  from  the  schedules 
then  in  effect  so  far  as  the  firemen  are  concerned.  We  have  the 
original  schedules  and  they  have  been  carefully  checked,  and 
those  are  the  rates  that  appear  therein. 

You  will  understand,  however,  that  where  the  schedule  says 
$4.55  a  day,  per  ten-hour  day,  we  simply  pass  the  decimal  point 
one  space  to  the  right  and  show^  that  it  is  45.5  cents  per  hour. 
It  is  very  easy  to  reduce  the  wages  from  the  daily  rate  to  the 
hourly  rate  on  a  ten-hour  road.  Not  so  easy  on  roads  where 
they  have  eight  and  nine  hours. 

As  I  stated,  the  firemen's  rates  are  taken  directly  from  the 
schedules  secured  in  1907.  The  engineers'  rates  are  taken  from 
a  volume  published  by  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  En- 
gineers, entitled  "Official  Eeport  of  Agreements  between  Rail- 
way Officials  and  Engineers,  1907-1908." 

In  this  volume,  the  date  that  each  schedule  became  effective 
is  shown.  In  some  instances,  however,  the  Engineers  did  not 
have  their  schedules  rewritten  until  early  in  1907,  but  the  wage 
rate  was  granted  and  went  into  effect  in — 

Mr.  Phillips :     Pardon  me,  may  I  interrupt  you  ? 


474 

Mr.  Carter:     11)08,  I  should  liave  said. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes,  1908. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes;  but  the  agreement  was  readied  and  the 
schedule  of  waj^es  became  effective  some  time  in  December. 
I  know  that  it  was  a  Christmas  present  to  the  engineers. 

Now,  it  may  appear  in  this  volume  tliat  a  rate  became 
effective  in  March,  1908,  so  far  as  the  schedule  is  concerned, 
but  it  was  effective  by  virtue  of  the  Chicago  Agreement  between 
the  Western  Railroads  and  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engi- 
neers, reached  in  the  month  of  December. 

The  second  column  under  "Engineers"  and  the  third  col- 
umn under  "Firemen"  are  taken  from  the  schedules  in  effect  in 
1910— 

Mr.  Stone:  If  I  might  interject,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  do  not 
desire  any  error  to  creep  into  the  record,  and  I  realize  that  Mr. 
Carter  is  stating  something  here  from  memory:  It  was  in  1910 
that  we  got  the  so-called  Christmas  present,  and  the  1907-1908 
settlement  was  made  some  time,  I  think,  early  in  February. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes,  February. 

Mr.  Stone:  Some  time  in  February  we  reached  an  agree- 
ment, and  it  was  applied  early  in  1908  to  the  different  schedules. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes;  my  error  was  in  using  the  1907  instead 
of  1910.  In  this  second  column  under  ' '  Engineers ' '  and  the  third 
column  under  "Firemen,"  the  wages  are  taken  from  the  wage 
settlements  of  the  year  1910.  So  far  as  the  Firemen  are  con- 
cerned, they  are  taken  directly  from  the  schedules  bearing  date 
of  that  year.  So  far  as  the  schedules  of  the  Engineers  are  con- 
cerned, what  I  have  just  said  about  1907  should  apply  to  1910; 
that  is,  it  was  in  December,  1910,  they  made  their  wage  settle- 
ment, and  it  may  appear  on  some  of  the  Engineers'  schedules 
that  it  was  not  applied  until  January,  or  February,  or  March, 
1911;  but  the  fact  remains  that  the  wage  rate  was  in  effect  in 
December,  1910. 

The  third  columns  under  "Engineers"  and  "Firemen"  show 
the  rate  in  effect  in  1914,  and  by  a  glance  at  these  two  columns 
for  1910  and  1914,  you  will  observe  there  is  practically  no  change, 
which  indicates  that  there  has  been  no  wage  settlement  since  the 
settlement  of  1910.  The  first  column  under  the  "Firemen" 
shows  the  fuel.    There  are  two  rates,  according  to  the  fuel  used. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  had 


475 

included  only  ten-hour  roads  in  this  compihition  / 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  only  those  on  a  ten-hour  basis f 

Mr.  Carter:  When  I  say  "ten-hour  road"  I  mean  a  road  on 
a  ten-hour  basis. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  I  understand  that  you  have  included  only 
freight  service? 

Mr.  Carter:  Only  freight  service.  Let  me  explain  that  no 
effort  was  made  to  go  into  any  other  class  of  service  except 
freight  service  until  after  the  book  was  in  print;  and,  later  on, 
I  added  two  classes  of  service,  which  will  be  explained  before  I 
get  through.  I  might  say  I  did  not  have  time,  from  August 
until  now,  to  do  much  more  than  I  did  do. 

Mr.  Phillips:  With  regard  to  this  fuel,  you  explained  here 
in  the  first  column,  in  the  Firemen's  tabulation,  that  it  so  per- 
tains to  fuel,  and  you  show  two  rates  for  firemen  throughout  the 
table,  as  far  as  I  have  looked  into  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir.  I  have  given  the  oil  rate  and  the 
coal  rate  for  all  locomotives  in  freight  service  on  all  roads  listed, 
regardless  of  the  fact  that  the  engine  cannot  be  both  oil  and 
coal  at  the  same  time. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  all  of  the  roads  both  kinds  of  fuel, 
engines  burning  oil  and  ,coal? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  not  all  of  them,  but  the  number  of  them 
is  rapidly  growing. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  the  number  of  roads  using  oil  as  a  fuel, 
or  changing,  from  oil  to  coal  from  time  to  time,  varying — in 
other  words,  do  roads  change  from  oil  to  coal,  and  from  coal 
back  to  oil  again? 

Mr.  Carter:  Without  having  any  specific  knowledge  upon 
the  subject,  I  so  understand. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  these  classifications  of  engines  which  you 
have  used  here,  which  I  understand  are  taken  from  the  present 
schedule  classifications,  indicate  the  number  of  roads  where 
rates  are  now  based,  wholly  or  partly,  on  weights  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  I  think  by  reading  that  first  column 
on  those  pages,  included  in  table  7,  you  will  find  that  a  large 
number  of  railroads  base  their  rates,  on  at  least  a  portion  of 
their  engines,  on  weights  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Phillips:    Well,  on  page  24,  now, — just  to  get  that 


476 

straiglit,  ill  the  second  entry,  under  the  name  of  the  railroad,  it 
shows  a  ten-wheel  engine,  less  than  100,000  pounds  on  drivers — 
it  gives  the  rates  all  the  way  across  the  page  for  engineers  and 
firemen;  and  the  next  entry  is  for  a  ten-wheel  engine,  100,000 
pounds  or  over  on  drivers.  Do  you  know  why  300,000  pounds 
was  selected  as  the  dividing  line? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Down  the  page  a  little  further  it  shows 
Consol.  less  than  170,000  pounds  on  drivers,  for  engineers,  and 
the  next  line  Simple  Consol.,  less  than  135,000  pounds  on  driv- 
ers, for  firemen.  Have  you  any  means  of  knowing  why  those 
were  made  different  for  engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  Just  an  arbitrary  division,  I  imagine,  between 
two  weights  of  engines. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  don't  know  whether  171,000  pounds 
would  be  nearer  the  right  figure  for  engineers,  or  134,000  pounds 
for  firemen  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir.  I  think  you  will  find  by  looking  over 
these  classifications  for  engines,  that  there  is  no  scientific  rule 
for  a  division  of  locomotives  by  weights  on  drivers,  and — par- 
don me  for  suggesting  at  this  time — ^it  was  to  avoid  what  seemed 
to  be  a  lack  of  rule  that  our  committee  grouped  the  engines  by 
weights  on  drivers  at  what  they  thought  would  be  a  fair  divid- 
ing line. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  was  your  purpose  in  adopting  a  gen- 
eral rule? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  that  was  the  purpose  of  the  committee. 
You  will  understand,  that  this  proposition  was  drafted  by  a 
sub-committee  that  reported  back  to  the  general  committee,  and 
the  general  committee  approved  or  adopted  the  reports  of  the 
sub-committee,  sometimes  modifying  them. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Was  this  sub-committee  in  possession  of  in- 
formation of  the  desires  or  opinions  of  the  managers  on  this 
subject? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  presume  so.  They  were  all  from  the  west- 
ern roads. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  think  they  were  influenced  in  pre- 
paring this  table  by  what  they  understood  to  be  the  wishes  of 
the  railroad  people? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  am  sure  they  did,  so  far  as  adopting  the 


477 

weights  on  drivers  for  pay  for  engineers  and  firemen.  I  won't 
say  the  divisions  were  made  to  meet  any  special  request  of  the 
railroads. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  in  reaching  the  divisions  contained  in 
the  proposition  submitted  to  arbitration,  they  tried,  as  nearly 
as  they  could,  to  reach  a  division  that  would  differentate  be- 
tween different  classes  and  sizes  of  engines.  Was  that  the 
purpose? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  presumably  went  about  it  in  the  same 
way  the  Santa  Fe  did  in  reaching  the  135,000  and  170,000 
pounds  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  know  what  the  Santa  Fe  officials  had 
in  mind  when  they  made  the  different  divisions  of  weights  on 
drivers.  That  applies  to  other  roads.  I  think  you  will  find 
quite  a  lack  of  uniformity  in  the  methods  of  these  railroads  in 
dividing  by  weights  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  purpose  of  your  committee,  in  prepar- 
ing the  articles  for  arbitration,  was  to  secure  uniformity,  was 
it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  called  attention  to  the  fact 
that  the  tables  for  the  Santa  Fe  are  covered  by  several  pages, 
5^2  pages,  I  believe? 

Mr.  Carter:  Five  and  one-half  pages  for  the  Eastern  and 
AVestern  lines,  and  about  three  and  one-half  pages  for  the  Coast 
lines.  That  is,  about  nine  pages,  to  show  the  different  rates 
and  different  classifications  on  the  Santa  Fe  Road  between  Chi- 
cago and  the  Pacific  Coast. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  did  not  include  the  Gulf,  Colorado  & 
Santa  Fe? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  doesn't  include  the  Gulf,  Colorado  & 
Santa  Fe. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  the  Burlington,  which  is  quite  a  large 
system  of  railroad,  is  all  on  about  half  a  page,  on  page  30,  is 
it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  the  Burlington  have  any  specific 
method  of  classifying  engines? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  think,  if  you  will  note  how  they  do  classify 


478 

them — tlioy  classify  tlicin  by  two  nietliods,  first  by  letters  and 
then  by  numbers,  and  then  they  group  them  for  the  purpose 
of  fixing  wages.  For  instance,  group  1  is  made  up  of  engines 
known  as  class  A-1,  A-2,  A-3,  A-4,  A-5,  K-6,  K-9,  H-5,  I-l.  I 
would  say,  however,  that  there  is  no  information  in  the  sched- 
ule that  would  indicate  what  type  of  engines  they  are,  or  what 
their  weight  on  drivers  is.  It  is  only  by  taking  the  schedules 
of  the  Engineers  and  Firemen,  and  then  taking  the  blue  prints, 
or  official  descriptions  of  locomotives,  published  by  the  com- 
pany, that  you  can  properly  group  them  by  Aveights  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Nothing  to  show  their  tractive  power  or 
other  dimensions  f 

Mr.  Carter :  Nothing.  I  would  say,  however,  that  the  rate 
is  a  pretty  good  index  of  the  increased  tractive  power, 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  feel  safe  in  assuming  that,  as  the  rates 
become  higher,  very  likely  they  are  for  larger  types  of  engines? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  think  that  is  very  likely. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  Burlington  has  the  same  classification 
for  engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  stated,  I  believe,  that  you  believed  the 
space  occupied  by  the  tabulation  of  these  engines,  showing  their 
w^eights  on  drivers  and  the  rates  applicable,  would  be  much  less 
if  some  such  plan  as  ^veights  on  drivers  were  adopted  as  a 
means  of  fixing  rates  of  pay  for  engineers  and  firemen  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  Maybe  I  am  mistaken,  but  I  believe  one  page 
would  show  accurately  the  rates  of  w^ages  of  all  engineers  and 
firemen  on  these  thirty  roads,  or  less  than  one  page ;  and  under 
the  present  methods  it  takes  forty  pages,  I  believe — from  eight- 
een to  fifty-eight — to  communicate  the  same  information. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  spoke  of  the  Santa  Fe,  Eastern  and 
Western  lines.  I  believe  you  explained  that  that  did  not  include 
the  Coast  lines,  or  the  Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir.  And,  for  years,  in  our  schedules  and 
in  referring  to  our  schedules,  we  have  always  referred  to  that 
portion  of  the  Santa  Fe  between  Chicago  and  Albuquerque — 
I  think  those  are  the  two  points — as  the  Santa  Fe  proper,  and 
I  think  formerly  some  of  the  Santa  Fe  literature  referred  to  it 
in  that  manner ;  but  in  recent  years  I  think  they  have  referred  to 
the  Santa  Fe  Eastern  lines  under  one  general  manager,  and  to 


479 

the  Santa  Fe  Western  lines  under  another  general  manager,  but 
both  of  these  grand  sub-divisions  are  under  one  higher  operating- 
official.  I  am  not  attempting  to  explain  the  details  of  it,  but  that 
is  generally,  I  think,  what  is  done.  The  Coast  lines  seem  to  be 
operated  more  or  less  distinctly  from  the  line  east  of  Albu- 
querque, as  they  do  the  Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe;  but  I  do 
not  want  to  pretend  that  I  know  exactly  how  they  handle  their 
operating  matters  or  financial  matters. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But,  under  the  general  caption  of  the  Atchi- 
son, Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  Eastern  and  Western  lines,  you  mean 
those  divisions  and  subdivisions  of  that  part  of  the  Santa  Fe 
line  commonly  known  and  referred  to  as  the  Santa  Fe  Proper? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  In  the  first  column,  on  page  18,  Mr.  Carter, 
there  is  a  small  ''1"  within  a  circle.  What  does  that  indicate 
— pretty  well  down  on  the  page? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  circled  1  was  adopted  as  a  reference 
figure  to  a  footnote  that  says,  *'No  engines  of  this  class  in  service 
that  5^ear. ' ' 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then,  we  would  understand  from  that,  that 
Mallet  engines  of  neither  class  shown  there,  were  in  service  on 
that  part  of  the  Santa  Fe  line  covered  by  this  portion  of  the 
schedule,  in  1907? 

Mr.  Carter :  If  they  were,  no  rate  was  quoted  for  them  in 
the  schedules  of  Engineers  and  Firemen,  and  I  want  to  make  it 
thoroughly  understood  that  for  my  information  I  have  depended 
upon  the  schedule.  They  may  have  had  Mallets  there,  but  there 
was  no  rate  for  a  Mallet  in  the  schedules. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Wlien  the  railroads  get  new  locomotives, 
presuming  they  are  larger  than  any  in  use,  or  any  covered  by 
the  schedule  rate,  do  you  know  what  the  practice  is  in  paying 
engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  it  depends  largely  on  what  road  the 
latest  big  engine  is  introduced.  On  some  roads  the  committees 
have  no  trouble  whatever  in  immediately  securing  a  special  rate 
for  that  engine.  In  fact,  the  men  learn  in  advance  that  the 
engines  have  been  ordered,  and  I  am  quite  sure  in  some  instances 
they  agi'ee  upon  the  rate  for  that  engine  before  the  engine 
actually  reaches  the  road.  On  other  roads  they  are  less  liberal. 
They  sometimes  have  a  rule  in  their  schedules  that  says  all 


480 

engines  above  a  certain  weight  or  larger,  a  certain  size,  will 
take  a  certain  rate. 

Now,  if  it  so  happens  that  the  new  big  engine  is  introduced 
on  the  road,  I  think — at  least  I  have  been  so  informed — I  will 
not  attempt  to  specify — I  think  that  they  insist  that  regardless 
of  the  size  of  the  engine  it  will  take  the  old  rate  as  fixed  in  the 
schedule  until  a  different  rate  is  negotiated.  But,  after  an 
engine  of  a  certain  type  and  weight  is  introduced  on  one  road,  or 
two  roads,  and  a  special  rate  is  established  for  it,  usually  it 
requires  but  little  effort  on  the  part  of  the  engineers  and  firemen 
to  have  all  roads  ado]it  that  practically  as  a  standard,  or  some- 
thing near  akin  to  tJiat,  even  though  it  is  not  included  in  the 
schedule  until  the  next  schedule  is  printed. 

Mr.  Phillips :  These  reference  notes  appear  to  run  through 
the  table  from  place  to  place,  and  they  mean  the  same  all  the  way 
through,  do  they? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Your  reference  note  2.  reading  ' '  Including 
the  principal  railroads  on  10-hour  basis  of  wages,"  that  I  find 
is  in  the  caption  here,  would  that  reference  note  2  appear  all 
the  way  through  the  table? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir,  the  caption  of  Table  7  is  ''Increase 
in  Rates  of  Wages  Per  Hour  of  Locomotive  Engineers  and  Fire- 
men in  Freight  Service  on  Western  Railroads. ' '  After  the  word 
"railroads"  there  is  a  circled  figure  2,  and  by  referring  to  the 
corresponding  circled  figure  2  at  the  foot  of  the  page  you  will 
find  it  reads  "Including  the  principal  railroads  on  10-hour  basis 
of  wages." 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  your  reference  here  in  note  3,  "the 
rates  for  1907  and  1910  are  taken  from  wage  agreements  made 
effective  in  those  years.  Rates  for  1914  with  few  exceptions  are 
the  same  as  1910" — that  is  in  line  with  the  explanation  you 
made  a  few  moments  ago,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  The  rates  in  effect  in  1914  are  practi- 
,cally  the  same  as  in  effect  after  the  wage  settlement  of  1910. 
But  do  not  misunderstand  me.  There  are  certain  variations 
therefrom.  For  instance,  in  1910,  in  that  schedule  a  certain 
engine  may  not  have  been  in  service  on  a  certain  road,  but, 
since  that  time,  that  engine  has  been  introduced,  and  it  has 
taken  the  going  rate.     I  will  explain  by  saying  that  "going 


481 

rate"  is  a  term  used  iu  the  making  of  railway  employes'  sched- 
ules, which  means  the  rate  that  is  generally  in  effect  in  that 
territory. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is,  if  one  of  these  large  engines  to  which 
you  referred  a  moment  ago  was  introduced  on  some  railroad, 
and  after  negotiations  a  higher  rate  was  allowed  or  paid  on 
that  engine  than  had  been  paid  before  on  any  other  class  of 
engines,  other  roads  getting  the  same  kind  of  engine  would 
pay  that  as  the  going  rate  on  that  kind  of  engine.    Is  that  right? 

Mr.  Carter:  Some  roads  do.  I  understand  that  some  do 
not.  I  understand  it  takes  quite  an  interesting  series  of  nego- 
tiations before  they  will  do  that.  I  state  that,  however,  without 
any  special  knowledge  upon  the  subject.  I  get  that  from  the 
general  chairmen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  is  sometimes  necessary  to  arbitrate  before 
they  ,can  get  those  things  settled? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  I  make  that  statement  without  refer- 
ring to  any  special  arbitration. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  show  in  these  columns  of  rates  here, 
rates  for  1907  for  both  engineers  and  firemen.  I  understand 
you  have  taken  the  rate  appearing  in  the  wage  schedules  of  the 
engineers  and  firemen  on  the  different  roads  after  their  wage 
adjustments  of  1907  had  been  made? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  without  referring  to  the  historical  mat- 
ter myself,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  wage  settlements  of  the 
Engineers,  in  1907,  were  made  about  February  and  became  effec- 
tive about  that  month,  perhaps  February  1,  and  the  Firemen's 
settlements  were  made  shortly  thereafter  and  became  effective 
April  1,  of  that  year? 

Mr.  Carter:     That  was  in  1907. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  it  was  not  1908  before  any  of  these 
settlements  became  effective  for  the  roads  that  j^articipated  in 
the  concerted  movement  of  that  year? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  and  my  error  in  making  that  state- 
ment was  that  I  had  in  mind  the  settlement  made  in  1910. 

Mr.  Phillips:    You  had  them  confused  slightly. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Now,  for  1907  you  use  the  schedule  contain- 


482 

ing  the  rates  found  therein  after  the  wage  adjustment  of  that 
vear? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  For  1910  you  use  the  schedules  containing 
tlie  rates  found  therein  after  the  wage  adjustments  of  1910?  Is 
tliat  correct? 

]\Ir.  Carter:  It  shows  the  changes  in  the  rates  made  by  the 
settlements. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Without  referring  to  the  record,  the  fire- 
men's rates  of  that  year  became  effective  as  of  May  16,  did  they 
not?  ' 

Mr.  Carter:  The  award  was  reached,  I  think,  on  June  4, 
1910,  and  made  retroactive  as  of  May  16,  1910.  I  make  that 
statement  without  referring  to  the  record. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  if  I  am  correct  in  this  assumption — 
and  if  not  Mr.  Stone  will  correct  me — the  engineers  reached 
their  settlement  on  December  24.  That  was  the  Christmas  pres- 
ent you  alluded  to,  in  1910,  and  it  became  effective  as  of  that 
date.    Is  that  your  understanding? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  have  heard  so. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  although  some  of  those  rates  may  not 
have  been  shown  in  the  schedules  of  1910,  and  were  not  incor- 
porated until  later,  possibly  1911,  were  those  the  rates  you  have 
included  in  your  rate  of  1910  here? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  in  1914  you  show  the  rates  appearing 
in  the  schedule  as  of  1914? 

Mr.  Carter:  We  show  the  rates  appearing  in  the  schedules 
in  effect  in  1914;  but,  as  stated  with  regard  to  other  periods, 
it  is  possible  that  since  those  schedules  were  printed  some  of 
the  roads  that  did  not  have  the  larger  engines  have  introduced 
them  in  service,  and  are  now  paying  the  going  rate  on  those 
larger  engines,  but  it  is  not  shown  in  the  printed  schedules. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  one  or  two  or  three  wage  increases  took 
place  between  1907  and  1910,  I  understand  that  you  would  not 
show  the  several  different  rates? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  I  have  not  attempted  to  check  each 
one. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  simply  show  the  rate  in  effect  in  1907 
and  then  the  rates  found  in  the  schedules  in  1910 1 


483 

Mr.  Carter:  Do  not  misunderstand  me.  The  schedules 
reached  in  1907  were  also  in  effect  in  1910,  until  the  wages  were 
changed  for  that  year.  Understand,  as  I  said  before,  partic- 
ularly in  the  case  of  the  engineers,  they  did  not  have  their  sched- 
ules reprinted  until  early  in  1911,  and  their  schedules  may 
bear  date  of  1911.  But  tlie  wages  shown  therein  became  effective 
as  of  December  21,  1910,  as  I  understand. 

Mr.  Phillips:     December  24? 

Mr.  Carter :     Well,  December  24,  the  ' '  Christmas  present. ' ' 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  point  I  wish  you  to  make  clear  if  you 
can,  Mr.  Carter,  is  that  if  two  or  more  increases  in  pay  were 
granted  the  engineers  or  firemen  on  any  railroad  between  1907 
and  1910,  any  number  of  increases,  if  several  were  granted, 
would  all  be  included  in  the  rate  sho\\Ti  in  the  schedules  for 
1910. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  if  such  a  condition  exists,  but  I  do  not 
know  that  such  a  condition  does  exist. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  do  not  attempt,  then,  to  show  the  va- 
ried increases,  if  such  varied  increases  occurred,  but  you  show 
the  rates  in  effect  in  1907 ;  you  show  the  rates  in  effect  in  1910, 
and  you  show  the  rates  in  effect  in  1914,  according  to  the  re- 
spective schedules  in  effect  in  the  different  years. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  and  on  each  locomotive  shown  in  the 
schedule,  and  on  each  railroad,  and  on  each  di\dsion,  if  they 
have  different  rates  on  each  division. 

Mr.  Phillips :  So  that  so  far  as  the  roads  eniunerated  here 
are  concerned — thirty  roads — 

Mr.  Carter:     Thirty  roads.     It  takes  forty  pages. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Thirty  ten  hour  roads? 

Mr.  Carter:     Listed  here. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Freight  service? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  So  far  as  they  are  concerned,  that  is  the 
fact? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  referred  to  some  rates  as  being  diff'erent 
in  this  Santa  Fe  table. 

Mr.   Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  you  stated  that  the  Santa  Fe  was 
not  selected  by  design  f 


484 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  occupies  the  same  position,  I  suppose, 
in  the  wage  movement  as  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio  does  in  the  East- 
ern movement — it  is  first  at  bat. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  referred  to  the  difference  in  the  rates 
on  the  different  districts  or  the  different  divisions.  On  page 
18  again,  for  firemen,  taking  the  rate  of  the  Mikado,  Decapod 
and  Santa  Fe  type  of  engines  on  the  Chicago  &  Canyon  City 
including  branches,  the  first  part  of  the  tabulation — 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  that  is  from  the  Firemen's  schedule. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Yes.  You  show  a  rate  of  30  cents.  I  sup- 
pose that  would  be  three  dollars  per  day  of  ten  hours,  would  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Three  dollars  for  a  hundred  miles  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is  in  1907.  And  you  show  a  rate  of 
37.5  per  hour  in  1910  or  371/2  cents  per  hour.  That  would  be 
$3.75  per  hundred  miles? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:    You  show  the  same  rate  in  1914? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is  also  true  of  the  Simple  Engines  with 
cylinders  24  inches  or  over  in  diameter,  and  compound  engines 
weighing  215,000  pounds  and  over  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     The  same  statement  applies? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Now,  on  the  next  page? 

Mr.  Carter:     AVhat  division? 

Mr.  Phillips:  La  Junta  and  Eaton,  Las  Vegas  and  Albu- 
querque. Take  Mikado,  Decapod  and  Santa  Fe  types.  It  ap- 
pears that  the  rate  there  was  341/2  cents  in  1907.  That  would  be 
$3.45  a  hundred,  or  $3.45  a  day,  would  it? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  that  rate  is  now,  or,  in  1910,  was  37.5, 
and  the  same  in  1914,  37.5? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Or  3.75  per  hundred? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 


485 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  would  appear  that  the  rate  for  Chicago 
to  La  Junta  was  much  less  on  the  same  type  of  en,Q:ine  than 
from  La  Junta  west.    Can  you  explain  that? 

Mr.  Carter:     Well,  they  have  a  higher  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  mean  that  the  rate  in  1907  was  much  less, 
Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  the  rate  is  higher  on  your  La  Junta  and 
Raton,  Las  Vegas  and  Albuquerque  division,  tlian  it  was  on  the 
Chicago-Canon  C'ity,  including  branches,  and  if  you  look  at 
Pueblo,  on  page  19,  you  will  still  see  a  different  rate  between 
Pueblo  and  Denver. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes,  for  the  same  type  of  engine? 

Mr.  Carter:     Same  engine  description. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Between  Pueblo  and  Denver  at  that  time  they 
paid  33.5,  and  you  show  a  rate  in  1910  of  37.5,  or  37 Vi*  cents  an 
hour. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     The  rate  is  now  standard  or  uniform,  is  it? 

Mr.  Carter:-  For  engines  of  that  description,  weight  and 
size  of  cylinders. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  again  on  page  21,  South  of  Albuquerque 
and  Clovis  and  Belen  it  shows  a  rate  of  32.5.  I  am  using  these 
figures  as  decimal  figures;  I  think  that  is  permissible. 

Mr.  Carter:     32.5,  yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  32.5  an  hour  in  1907  and  37.5  per  hour  in 
1910,  and  the  same  in  1914? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Still  a  different  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  and  you  have  skipped  another  one. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  was  not  trying  to  catch  them  all;  the  book 
is  too  large. 

Mr.  Carter:  On  page  20,  you  will  find  there  is  still  a  differ- 
ent rate,  or,  I  won't  say  it  is  still  a  different  rate — yes,  it  is  still 
a  different  rate  between  Raton  and  Las  Vegas. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  you  will  look  up  the  page  a  little  higher 
there,  Mr.  Carter,  I  want  to  ask  you  about  your  Atlantic,  Pacific, 
Prairie,  Mogul  and  Consol.,  less  than  143,700  pounds  on  drivers, 
rates  fixed  for  engineers.  Have  you  any  means  of  knowing  how 
that  particular  weight  was  decided  upon? 

Mr.  Carter:      I  have  no  knowledge.    They  just  seemed  to 


486 

have  liad  Ihat  dividing-  point.  I  should  imagine,  however,  that 
they  perhaps  had  different  classes  of  engines  that  fell  above  and 
below  that  point  and  they  wanted  some  point  to  divide  the 
wages  on. 

Mr.  Phillips:  My  reason  for  calling  attention  to  that  was 
that  it  had  escaped  my  notice  in  speaking  to  you  a  few  minutes 
ago  about  the  weights  on  drivers  and  the  reasons,  and  that 
seemed  like  such  an  odd  weight.  You  have  no  other  explana- 
tion than  that  they  probably  had  some  different  weights  of 
engines,  one  above  and  one  below  that  figure? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  our  divisions  are  more  scientific. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  turn  to  page  22,  please,  Starkville, 
Hebron,  Blossburg  and  Waldo  branches,  these  Simple  Engines, 
with  cylinders  24  inches  or  over  in  diameter,  and  the  Mikado, 
Decapod  and  Santa  Fe  type,  they  seem  to  come  in  there,  there 
are  three  groups  of  them,  evidently,  and  they  pay  a  rate  of  28.5 
cents  an  hour  or  $2.85  per  hundred,  that  is,  in  1907 — 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  they  paid  37.5  in  1910  and  the  same 
in  1914? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     The  same  engine,  evidently? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  it  is  the  same  group  of  engines. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  on  the  same  railroad  all  the  way? 

Mr.  Carter:     The  same  railroad. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  whether  the  3.75  or  the  37 V2 
cents  per  hour  rate  is  now  in  effect  on  various  other  railroads 
throughout  the  same  territory  ? 

Mr.  Carter:    Why,  I  think  so;  it  should  be. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  kno\s^  what  the  rates  were  on  the 
other  roads  prior  to  1910,  hourly,  or  per  hundred  miles,  for  an 
engine  of  similar  type? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  think  that  any  other  road  than  the 
Santa  Fe  had  this  huge  locomotive  in  service,  at  least  there 
were  no  rates  for  engines  with  cylinders  24  inches  or  over  in 
diameter.  I  think,  if  you  will  look  through  the  table,  you  "will 
find  that  in  nearly  every  instance  where  the  37.5  rate  appears 
for  firemen  in  that  cohmm,  for  1910,  you  won't  find  any  rate 
for  that  engine  in  1907.  You  will  find  a  circle  figure  1,  which 
means  that  there  were  no  engines  of  that  type  in  the  service 


487 

of  that  road  for  that  year,  so  far  as  the  schedules  show.  As  I 
said  before,  they  may  have  had  that  engine  in  service,  but  there 
was  no  rate  shown  for  it  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  you  any  means  of  knowing  whether 
these  engines  are  used  on  these  particular  districts  now? 

Mr.  Carter:     The  schedule  says  so. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  schedule  shows  a  rate,  but  does  it  say 
the  engine  is  working  there? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  will  have  to  confess  I  do  not  know  whether 
they  have  got  any  locomotives  there  or  not.  They  may  have 
airships ;  but  the  schedule  provides  a  rate  for  those  engines  on 
those  divisions. 

Mr.  Phillips :  There  would  be  no  means  of  comparing  the 
engines  for  which  the  rates  have  just  been  quoted,  with  the 
engines  of  other  roads,  would  there? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  According  to  the  present  methods  of  classi- 
fication ? 

Mr.  Carter:  We  have  done  it  and  presented  it  yesterday 
in  Exhibit  4 — 


Mr.  Phillips:     Do  you  mean  Friday? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  Friday  in  Exhibit  4. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  have  compared  them  on  a  weight  on 
drivers  basis,  have  you  not? 

Mr.  Carter :     That  is  the  only  way  you  can  «ompare  them. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But,  I  mean  in  going  through  your  tables 
here,  there  is  no  means  of  comparing  engines  on  one  road  with 
the  same  kind  of  engines  on  another  road? 

Mr.  Carter:  None  whatever,  unless  they  give  the  weight 
on  drivers.  If  you  find  there  that  the  Mikado  engine  under  a 
certain  weight  on  drivers  is  paying  a  certain  rate,  and  over 
that  weight  on  drivers  is  paying  a  higher  rate  and  then  are  so 
fortunate  as  to  find  another  railroad  that  makes  a  division  of 
the  same  weight  on  drivers  you  would  be  able  to  compare  the 
rates  in  that  specific  case.  I  do  not  believe  you  \vill  find  it, 
however;  they  all  have  different  methods. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  let  us  turn  to  the  next  column  a  mo- 
ment.    These  increases — 

Mr.  Carter:    What  page? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Well,  we  will  begin  with  page  18  again  for 


488 

the  purpose  of  exemplification.  Your  fourth  and  fifth  columns 
in  the  tabulation  under  the  general  head  ''Engineers,"  show 
the  per  cent  of  increase  received,  first,  increase  1914  over  1907 ; 
and  in  the  second  column,  increase  1914  over  1910.  Is  that 
correct  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  shows  the  exact  increase  that  has  been 
received  on  each  of  those  engines  for  the  period  covered  in  this 
report,  the  percentage  of  increase. 

Mr.  Phillips :  This  is  the  percentage  of  increase  based  on 
an  hourly  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:     On  an  hourly  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  have  reached  the  hourly  rate  by  divid- 
ing the  daily  rate  by  ten,  these  being  ten  hour  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:  In  effect  I  did  that,  but  I  only  had  to  just 
shift  the  decimal  point  one  point  over  to  the  right  to  get  the 
di\asion. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is  because  the  schedules  are  on  a  deci- 
mal basis,  they  all  go  by  tens? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And,  you  in  effect  divide  the  daily  rate  by 
ten,  by  moving  your  decimal  point  one  point  to  the  right,  and 
thereby  you  establish  the  hourly  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  the  rate  for  a  fireman  was  3.75,  in  the 
rate  column  it  would  appear  37.5.  The  rate  per  hour  is  37.5, 
in  that  case,  on  a  ten  hour  road. 

Mr.  Phillips:  All  of  these  percentages  show  that  hourly 
basis  here? 

Mr.  Carter:  All  on  an  hourly  basis;  it  has  nothing  to  do 
witli  the  mileage  system. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Being  on  a  ten  hour  basis,  however,  would 
it  be  a  true  indication  of  the  percentage  of  increases  of  the  daily 
basis! 

Mr.  Carter :     It  would  be  the  same. 

Mr.  Phillips:  "With  the  exception  of  the  change  of  the 
decimal  point? 

Mr.  Carter :  That  is  all.  I  mean  to  say  that  the  daily  rate 
has  increased  in  exactly  the  same  percentage  as  the  hourly  rate. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  The  per  cent  of  increase,  1914  over  1907, 
Mr.  Carter,  as  shown  in  the  column  under  "Engineers",  shows 
8.79  per  cent  on  the  first  engine  named  or  described,  an  eight 


489 

wheel  engine;  that  includes  all  of  the  increase  for  the  period 
1907  to  1914,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes.  On  the  16th  of  next  May  it  will  be  five 
years  for  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Five  years  for  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  so.    Isn't  it  I 

Mr.  Phillips :     Your  table  shows  1907  to  1914. 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  four  years  last  May  16th.  I  said  next 
May  16tli  would  be  five  years.  Last  May  16th  it  would  be  four 
years.    Let's  see  if  I  am  right. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Take  the  first  column,  increase,  1914  over 
1907— 

Mr.  Carter:  Wait  just  a  moment,  I  want  to  correct  my- 
self if  I  have  made  a  mistake.  Let  me  get  straightened  out 
here. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Take  the  first  column,  increase  1914  over 
1907. 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  but  I  want  to  estimate  the  number  of 
years. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Yes,  that  is  what  I  want  to  get  at. 

Mr.  Carter:  The  firemen's  was  from  May  16 — No,  I  beg 
pardon,  from  April,  and,  I  cannot  remember  the  date,  1907,  as 
shown  herein,  up  to  November  1st,  1914.  Figure  that  out  for 
me,  Mr.  Stone.  It  will  give  you  the  exact  number  of  years  and 
months. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is  seven  years  and  seven  months,  isn't 
it? 

Mr.  Carter:     Seven  years  and  seven  months. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  the  column,  1914  over  1907,  for  fire- 
men, covers  a  period  of  seven  years  and  seven  months? 

Mr.  Carter:     Have  j^ou  figured  it  out!     I  haven't. 

Mr.  Phillips :     I  just  ran  through  it. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  had  not  anticipated  that  question.  I  think 
anybody  can  make  the  calculation  by  taking  a  pencil  and  paper. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  do  not  think  a  minute  calculation  is  essen- 
tial. A  general  statement  as  to  the  time,  I  believe,  is  sufficient. 
It  is  over  seven  years  for  the  firemen;  and,  Avith  the  under- 
standing that  the  engineers  reached  their  settlements  in  1907, 
earlier  than  the  settlements  for  the  firemen  were  reached,  it 
would  be  approximately  the  same  time  for  the  engineers? 


490 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  it  would  be  eight  years  next  month. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Eight  years  in  February,  wouldn't  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  thought  it  was  January.  Eight  years  in 
February,  then. 

Mr.  Phillips:     It  is  over  seven  years'? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  your  first  column,  increase  1914  over 
1907,  covers  a  period  of  something  over  seven  years? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And,  you  include  there  in  your  8.79  per 
cent  of  increase  all  of  the  increases  received  by  the  engineers 
whether  received  at  one  time  or  at  several  different  times? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :     It  would  all  be  shown  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  show  a  cipher  in  the  next  column,  show- 
ing that  no  part  of  that  increase  was  received  in  1914  over  1910, 
is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  nought  appearing  in  the  column  ''In- 
crease 1914  over  1910",  indicates  that  there  has  been  no  in- 
crease shown  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  the  8.79  per  cent  of  increase  was  grant- 
ed, or  became  effective,  at  some  time  between  1907  and  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:    And  no  part  of  it  since  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  except,  where  indicated  in  that  column, 
you  will  find  some  engines  where  they  have  had  an  increase. 

Mr.  Phillips :  All  down  that  page,  as  far  as  I  have  looked, 
and  on  the  next  page,  I  see  no  figures  in  the  last  column  for 
either  engineers  or  firemen.  Are  we  to  take  it  from  that  that 
no  increases  have  taken  place,  for  either  engineers  or  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter :     You  can  find  one  on  page  21  for  the  engineers. 

Mr.  Phillips :     I  have  not  turned  to  page  21. 

Mr.  Carter :     Well,  that  is  the  same  railroad. 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  page  21  of  the  Santa  Fe,  now  that  you 
call  my  attention  to  it,  I  find  an  increase  of  8.85  per  cent  1914 
over  1910.    Can  you  explain  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  You  will  note  that  that  engine  was  not  in 
service  in  1907.  If  it  was,  it  was  not  rated  in  the  schedule.  The 
circle  1  there  indicates  that  there  were  no  Mallets,   275,000 


491 

pounds  or  less  on  drivers,  in  service  on  that  road,  at  that  time. 
Without  stating  it  to  be  a  positive  fact,  it  would  indicate  that 
when  that  engine  was  introduced  in  1910,  it  did  not  take  as  high 
a  rate  there  as  was  being  paid  elsewhere,  but,  later,  the  higher 
rate  was  applied  and  therefore  the  percentage  of  increase,  8.85, 
was  made  in  the  year  1910. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  wasn't  your  purpose  in  prepar- 
ing these  tables  to  include  the  aggregate  per  cent  of  increase 
in  the  next  to  the  last  column  for  the  engineers?  Just  look  again 
at  the  figure  we  were  discussing  there ;  you  will  note  that  there 
was  an  increase  shown  of  8.85  per  cent  in  1914  ovei'  1910,  but  no 
increase  shown  1914  over  1907.    How  do  you  explain  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  Without  having  any  special  knowledge  upon 
the  subject,  I  should  judge,  that  the  Mallets  over  275,000  pounds 
on  drivers  took  the  high  rate  in  that  year,  while  the  Mallets  less 
than  275,000  pounds  on  drivers  did  not  take  the  righ  rate  until 
later. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  would  understand  that,  Mr.  Carter,  from 
our  reference  note  and  explanation,  but,  I  would  like  to  have  you 
explain  why  that  per  cent  of  increase,  1914  over  1910,  is  not 
shown  in  the  column  1914  over  1907  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  There  were  no  engines  of  this  character 
shown  in  the  schedule  for  1907.  Therefore,  you  cannot  show  a 
percentage  of  increase  over  1907  for  either  of  these  engines. 
However,  you  can  show  an  increase  of  1914  over  1910  for  Mallets 
weighing  275,000  pounds  or  less  on  drivers,  because  the  rate  in 
1910  was  56.5  per  hour,  while  on  that  same  engine,  the  rate  for 
1914  was  61.5  per  hour,  showing  a  percentage  of  increase  of  8.85. 
On  the  larger  engines,  the  Mallet  over  275,000  pounds  on 
drivers,  it  shows  a  rate  in  1910  of  64  cents  per  hour,  and  shows 
identically  the  same  rate  for  1914.  Therefore,  there  is  no  in- 
crease or  percentage  of  increase,  1914  over  1910. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  your  reason  for  not  including  that 
percentage  of  increase  in  the  first  column  is  because  it  cannot 
be  compared  with  the  year  1907,  not  having  been  there  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  Where  a  blank  space  appears  in  the  first  per- 
centage column  there  for  the  engineers  or  firemen,  1914  over 
1907,  it  indicates  that  there  were  no  engines  or  there  was  no 
engine  of  that  classification  shown  in  the  schedule  for  1907,  and. 


492 

thorefore,  there  beiii^  no  rate  wc  cannot  show  a  jiercentage  of 
increase  in  rate. 

Mr.  I^liillips:  The  exjtlanations  you  have  made  witli  re- 
gard to  the  Eastern  and  Western  lines  of  the  Santa  Fe  would 
ai»ply  in  a  general  way  to  the  Coast  Lines  of  the  same  railroad, 
would  they? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  so.  I  think  you  will  find  about  the 
same  engine  descriptions  in  the  Coast  Lines,  as  on  the  Santa 
Fe  proper. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  find  that  any  increases  in  pay  have 
been  granted  in  the  column  showing  increases  1914  over  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  think  there  is  a  single  increase  on  the 
Coast  Lines. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  Xow,  take  the  Canadian  Pacific,  Mr.  Carter, 
on  page  27.  There  is  shown,  for  firemen  aj^i^arently,  an  increase 
of  1.25  per  cent  on  Mallet  type  engines,  on  the  Manitoba  and 
Saskatchewan  division.  The  same  explanation  you  have  just 
made  with  regard  to  the  Santa  Fe,  where  the  engine  was  not  in 
use  in  1907,  applies  here,  does  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  To  prevent  confusion,  will  you  tell  me  where 
that  rate  appears? 

Mr.  Phillips :     On  page  27. 

Mr.  Carter:     I  had  the  wrong  page. 

Mr.  Phillips :  About  one-third  of  the  way  down  the  page, 
and,  also  again,  a  little  more  than  half  way  down  the  page,  it 
shows  an  increase  for  Mallet  type  engines,  1914  over  1910,  of  1.25 
per  cent;  it  appears  in  two  places.  Still  further  down  the  page 
it  shows  an  increase  of  2.5  per  cent. 

Mr.  Carter:  You  will  understand,  that  the  Canadian 
Pacific  Railroad  did  not  participate  in  the  Firemen's  Arbitra- 
tion in  1910 ;  but  shortly  thereafter  I  am  informed  that  the  Fire- 
men's Connnittee  had  no  difficulty  in  having  the  same  rate 
applied  as  though  the  Canadian  Pacific  Railroad  had  been  a 
party,  and,  in  addition  thereto,  it  appears  they  got  still  higher 
rates  on  some  of  the  divisions  than  were  named  in  the  Arbitra- 
tion Award  for  the  Firemen ;  but  that  is  so  slightly  higher  that 
it  does  not  amount  to  much.  For  instance,  on  Mallet  engines, 
on  the  Manitoba  and  Saskatchewan  division,  east  of  Laggan  and 
Crows  Nest,  the  rate  was  40  cents  ]ier  hour,  while  in  1914  it  is 


493 

41^  cents  per  hour.  I  don't  know  why  that  is.  It  ap])ears  that 
way  in  the  schedule;  I  haven't  consulted  with  the  connnittee. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Do  you  mean  41 1/^  cents  or  401/.  cents? 

Mr.  Carter:  40V^  cents  per  hour.  Tliat  would  be  5  cents 
a  day,  I  think. 

Mr.  Phillips :  In  other  words,  instead  of  being  $4  a  day  it 
would  be  $4.05  a  day? 

Mr,  Carter:     It  would  appear  that  way. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  just  continue  down  to  near  the  bottom 
of  the  page,  the  Alberta  division;  you  will  see  on  the  Cbnsol. 
and  Consol.  Compound,  Alberta  Division  (Field  to  Laggan),  an 
increase  of  14.29  per  cent  1914  over  1907,  and  you  show  an  in- 
crease of  5.26  per  cent,  1914  over  1910.  Does  the  entire  increase 
between  1907  and  1914  appear  in  the  14.29  per  cent,  as  shown  in 
the  next  to  last  column? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir.  By  looking  at  that  you  will  note  that 
in  1907  they  paid  $3.50  and  in  1910  they  paid  $3.80,  and  in  1914 
they  paid  $4  per  day.  Dividing  that  by  ten,  you  will  see  the 
rate  per  hour  increased  in  like  manner. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  a  part  of  this  increase  apparently  was 
granted  between  1907  and  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  that  can  be  accounted  for  by  the  fact 
that  the  Canadian  Pacific  Railway  did  not  participate  in  the 
arbitration,  and  they  applied  in  two  different  wage  increases  the 
same  rate  received  on  Mallet  engines  in  the  Arbitration. 

Mr.  Phillips:     A  part  of  it  being  applied  before  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  it  would  appear  so. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  5.26  per  cent  was  applied  subsequent  to 
1910? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Well,  on  the  next  page,  now,  is  the  same 
true  of  the  first  figures,  near  the  top? 

Mr.  Carter:     For  the  Canadian  Pacific? 

Mr.  Phillips :     Canadian  Pacifi,c,  page  28. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  but  I  want  to  call  attention  to  an  error. 
Notwithstanding  repeated  checkings  by  different  persons,  some 
of  whom  are  experts,  the  increase  of  1914  over  1907,  shown  on 
the  first  two  engines  there,  for  firemen,  is  really  the  percentage 
of  increase  of  1910  over  1907.  The  percentage  of  increase  of 
1914  over  1907,  instead  of  being  8.57,  is  14.29. 


494 

Mr.  Phillips:     The  same  as  on  the  previous  page? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Are  the  figures  the  same? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  figures  are  the  same,  but  the  error  was 
made  in  this  manner:  Instead  of  calculating  the  increase  of  the 
rate  shown  in  the  column  1914  over  the  rate  shown  in  1907,  the 
percentage  was  calculated  on  the  rate  shown  in  the  column,  1910 
over  1914.  I  can  say,  however,  if  you  will  combine  those  two 
percentages  of  increase  in  the  two  columns,  it  will  be  approxi- 
mately the  same  as  if  the  usual  method  had  been  followed. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Near  the  bottom  of  the  page,  again,  on  the 
British  Columbia  Division,  I  find  the  same  figures  and  the  14.29 
per  cent  in  1914  over  1907,  and  10  per  cent  1914  over  1907, 
appear  as  on  the  preceding  page. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  That  is  the  way  it  should  appear  up 
there. 

Mr.  Phillips:     This  is  just  a  mistake  in  calculation? 

Mr.  Carter:  Understand,  there  was  no  error  in  the  calcu- 
lation; the  error  was  in  comparing  1910  with  1907  when  it  should 
have  compared  1914  with  1907. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  continuing,  as  we  turn  these  pages,  it 
would  appear  that  in  the  column  showing  the  percentage  of 
increase  1914  over  1910,  a  cipher  appears  for  both  engineers  and 
firemen,  for  practically  all  railroads. 

Mr,  Carter:  Very  few  instances  where  there  is  an  increase, 
and  then  you  will  find  an  increase  usually  not  considerable. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Turning  to  page  36,  there  is  an  exception, 
the  Chicago,  St.  Paul,  Minneapolis  &  Omaha  Railway,  for  the 
engineers,  near  the  bottom  of  the  page,  ten  wheeler,  with  trailer, 
class  E,  shows  an  increase  of  3.85  per  cent  over  1910. 

Mr.  Carter:  That  is  accounted  for  by  the  fact  that  in  1907 
they  probably  did  not  have  that  engine;  at  least,  there  was  no 
rate  quoted  for  that  engine. 

Mr.  Phillips:    Your  reference  note  so  indicates,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  In  1910,  they  had  a  rate  of  52  cents  an 
hour,  or  $5.20  a  day.  They  increased  that  rate  to  54  cents  an 
hour,  or  $5.40  a  day,  between  1910  and  1914,  and,  therefore,  in 
that  instance,  there  is  an  increase  of  3.85  per  cent,  1914  over  1910. 

Mr.  Phillips:    I  believe  you  said,  Mr.  Carter,  that  you  could 


495 

not  state  positively  what  roads  were  oil-burning  or  coal-burning 
roads? 

Mr.  Carter:     No  attempt  was  made  to  show  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  a  road  was  exclusively  an  oil -burning  road, 
the  percentage  of  increase,  as  shown  here  for  the  different  years, 
would  be  the  percentage  for  oil  burners,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  For  example,  turning  to  page  41,  take  the 
Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe ;  that  is  an  oil-burning  road,  largely, 
is  it  not? 

Mr,  Carter:     J  think  so. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  don 't  feel  warranted  in  saying  so,  posi- 
tively? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  every  record  would  indicate  that  they 
are. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  there  is  no  difference  in  the  rates  of 
pay  for  engineers  on  account  of  fuel,  I  understand. 

Mr.  Carter:    None  whatever. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But,  taking  the  Firemen,  as  shown  on  the 
table  on  page  41,  it  would  appear  that  in  1914  over  1907,  an 
increase  of  10.91  per  cent  had  been  granted,  in  one  group  of 
engines,  classified  by  weights  on  drivers,  and  that  10.34  per 
cent  for  another  group,  and  9.84  per  cent  for  still  another  group, 
on  coal  burners.  Now,  the  same  groups  of  engines  show  an 
increase  of  5.45,  5.17,  and  4.92  per  cent  for  oil  burners.  Now, 
if  the  road  is  an  oil  burning  road,  the  percentage  of  increase 
for  firemen  there  would  be  as  shown  for  oil  burners? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  Less  than  6  per  cent  in  am^  instance 
on  oil  burners. 

Mr.  Phillips:  No  increase  for  either  engineers  or  firemen 
in  1910? 

The  Chairman :    Less  than  what  per  cent  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  you  will  note  in  the  entire  period  cov- 
ering the  oil  burners,  firemen  received  less  than  6  per  cent 
increase.  I  want  to  state  that  it  is  my  opinion  that  in  1907, 
or  shortly  before  that  time,  there  were  many  coal  burning  en- 
gines on  the  Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa  Fe  Railroad.  At  some 
time,  they  changed  their  engines  from  coal  to  oil.  It  is  possible 
that  some  engine  has  remained  burning  coal.  I  don't  think  so. 
It  is  possible,  that,  in  the  future,  they  may  change  from  oil  to 


496 

coal.  The  purpose  of  this  statement  was  to  show  that  if  it 
were  a  coal  burning  engine  tliis  would  l)e  the  increase  in  rates; 
if  it  were  an  oil  burning  engine,  this  would  be  the  increase  in 
rates. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Without  desiring  to  take  up  the  time  of  the 
Board,  unnecessarily,  these  tables  set  forth  clearly  the  matters 
you  have  explained  in  detail,  do  they  not,  Mr.  Carter,  so  far  as 
rates  are  concerned  f 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  the  percentages  of  increase.  I  want  to 
call  your  attention  to  something  that  may  be  misleading  on 
page  18,  near  the  middle  of  the  page.  It  would  appear  that 
Mikado,  Decapod,  and  Santa  Fe  types,  there  has  been  an  in- 
crease of  25  per  cent  in  rates.  That  is  accounted  for  by  the 
extremely  low  rate  in  1907.  You  will  find  the  rate  much  lower 
than  elsewhere.  You  will  find  on  those  big  engines  on  another 
portion  of  the  Santa  Fe  they  only  paid  $2.85  a  day,  28.5  an 
hour. 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  page  22  you  will  note  that  on  the  Stark- 
ville,  Hel)ron,  Blossburg  &  Waldo  branches  they  paid  28.5,  and 
on  the  Santa  Fe  28.3  was  paid. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  as  low  as  28.3,  and  so  there  was  an  in- 
crease of  as  much  as  31  per  cent  in  order  to  come  up  to  the 
level. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  attribute  this  to  the  fact  that  the  rate 
for  the  engine  was  extremely  lowf 

Mr.  Carter:  It  was  down  to  $2.83  for  a  ten  hour  day,  or 
28.3  cents  an  hour. 

I  want  to  call  attention  to  the  fact  that  the  great  increase 
shown  does  not  indicate  that  they  are  getting  any  more  money 
now  than  on  other  roads,  but  they  got  a  great  deal  lower  rate  in 
1907  than  they  are  getting  in  1914. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  viiW  you  please  turn  to  page  59.  You 
have  here  table  8,  Increases  in  rates  of  wages  per  hour,  May 
15,  1907  to  May  15,  1913,  in  seventeen  western  cities.  Will  you 
please  explain  this  table,  and  its  meaning  and  purpose? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  beginning  of  the  compilation  of  Table  7 
indicated  that  if  we  were  to  make  any  comparisons  between  the 
wages  of  engineers  and  firemen  in  freight  service,  and  the  wages 
of  employes  in  other  industries,  we  must  take  the  same  years. 

I  found  that  in  Bulletin  131,  issued  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor 


497 

Statistics  under  date  of  August  15,  1913,  it  siiowed  tlie  rates  of 
wages  in  many  classes  of  service  in  sixteen  western  cities. 

The  first  two  columns,  1907  and  1910,  were  copied  from 
Bulletin  131. 

Subsequently  Bulletin  143,  issued  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor 
Statistics,  was  taken,  in  order  to  find  the  rates  for  191  ;>. 

You  will  understand  that  these  statistics  are  published  ap- 
proximately one  year  after  the  reports  are  made.  That  is,  Bul- 
letin 143  was  issued  under  date  of  March  4,  1914,  and  quoted 
rates  of  wages  in  effect  May  15,  1913.  That  being  the  last  in- 
formation available,  we  copied  in  the  third  column,  in  1913,  the 
rates  shown  in  Bulletin  143. 

By  reading  this  subhead  here,  you  will  see  some  of  the  diffi- 
culties with  which  we  were  confronted.  This  subhead  or  note 
reads : 

''Derivative  table  prepared  from  information  published  by 
the  United  States  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics  in  Bulletin  131 
(Aug.  15,  1913),  and  Bulletin  143  (March  4,  1914).  Bulletin 
143  includes  unions  not  found  in  Bulletin  131,  and  is  more  pre- 
cise in  describing  class  of  work.  This  statement  includes  only 
unions  reported  in  both  Bulletins  131  and  143.  Where  descrip- 
tive titles  have  been  slightly  changed,  they  have  been  identified 
by  the  rate  per  hour,  reported  in  both  Bulletins  for  1912." 

After  having  copied  these  rates  in  the  three  columns  then, 
in  the  same  manner  that  we  estimated  the  percentages  of  in- 
creases, 1914  over  1907,  and  1914  over  1910,  w^e  here  show  the 
percentage  of  increase  of  all  these  employes  for  the  periods 
covered. 

We  attempted  to  include  one  more  city  than  is  shown  here, 
that  is  the  city  of  St.  Paul ;  but  at  the  last  moment  we  omitted 
St.  Paul  Avithout  changing  the  quotation. 

The  reason  for  omitting  St.  Paul  is  that  we  could  not  carry 
the  comparisons  all  the  way  through. 

Bulletin  131  shows  no  reports  for  St.  Paul  in  1907 ;  and  in 
order  that  vexatious  complications  might  be  avoided,  we  omitted 
St.  Paul  in  its  entirety.  If  St.  Paul  had  been  reported  in  1907 
it  would  have  been  showii  here,  and  completed  the  seventeen 
cities. 

The  cities  shown  and  included  in  table  8  are  Chicago,  Illi- 


498 

iiois;  Dallas,  Texas;  Deuver,  Colorado;  Kansas  City,  Missouri; 
Little  Rock,  Arkansas;  Los  An^^eles,  California;  Minneapolis, 
Minnesota;  Milwaukee,  Wisconsin;  Memphis,  Tennessee;  New 
Orleans,  Louisiana;  Omaha,  Nebraska;  Portland,  Oregon;  Se- 
attle, Washington;  Salt  Lake  City,  Utah;  San  Francisco,  Cali- 
fornia; and  St.  Louis,  Missouri,  extending  from  page  59  to 
page  92. 

The  trades  include  all  the  trades  reported  by  the  Bureau  of 
Labor  Statistics  in  each  city.  You  will  note  that  they  vary 
slightly.  That  is,  Chicago  includes  reports  on  a  larger  number 
of  employes  than  do  some  other  cities ;  but  in  every  instance  all 
the  employes  reported  in  all  the  Bulletins  are  here  reproduced 
or  presented. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  you  have  taken  these  figures  from  the 
Government  reports,  and  you  have  omitted  St.  Paul  because 
one  year  was  omitted  from  the  reports  from  that  city? 

Mr.  Carter:  Understand  that  St.  Paul  was  not  omitted. 
It  was  included,  and  it  appeared  last;  but  anticipating  that 
wherever  there  was  a  possibility  of  muddying  the  water  it  would 
be  muddied,  I  arbitrarily  took  it  otf,  so  there  could  not  be  any 
question  about  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:    I  note  that  you  included  Minneapolis. 

Mr.  Carter:  Minneapolis  is  so  close  to  St.  Paul  that  the 
Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics  did  not  include  Minneapolis  until 
they  heard  from  St.  Paul,  or  St.  Paul  was  determined  by  where 
Minneapolis  was. 

Mr.  Phillips :     You  have  evidently  lived  in  the  Twin  Cities? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  but  I  have  been  there,  and  have  heard 
them  both  talk. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  show  the  hourly  rate  for  these  given 
classes  of  employes,  in  the  divisions,  do  you,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     In  the  first,  second  and  third  columns  here? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     In  1907,  1910  and  1913? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  explained  why  1913  was  used 
in  compiling  these  tables,  while  1914  had  been  used  in  compiling 
the  tables  for  engineers  and  firemen. 

Mr.  Carter :     Approximately  the  same  rates  of  wages  have 


499 

been  in  effect  for  engineers  and  firemen  since  the  increases  of 
1910,  np  to  date.  Therefore,  the  rates  quoted  in  Table  7  for 
engineers  and  firemen  were  approximately  the  rates  in  1913; 
but  I  wanted  to  bring  Table  7,  rates  of  engineers  and  firemen, 
up  as  nearly  to  date  as  practicable,  so  I  arbitrarily  said  it  was 
November  1,  1914 ;  but  the  last  report  issued  by  the  Bureau  of 
Labor  Statistics  on  wages  of  employes  in  other  industries  is 
as  of  date  March  4,  1914.  That  is  the  date  of  the  report,  and  it 
is  the  last  report  available.  It  gives  the  rates  for  1913.  Al- 
though the  report  l)ears  date  March  4,  1914,  it  quotes  rates  for 
1913. 

Mr.  Pliillips :  Do  you  say  that  the  engineers '  and  firemen 's 
rates  have  been,  generally  speaking,  the  same  since  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  this  also  true  of  other  employes  covered 
by  these  tables? 

Mr.  Carter :  Oh,  no,  they  have  had  increases  from  time  to 
time.  For  instance,  we  will  take  brick  layers  in  the  building 
trades.  The  rate  there  shown  for  brick  layers  in  1907  is  621/2 
cents  an  hour,  and  in  1910  67i/^  cents  an  hour. 

Now,  it  may  be  that  that  increase,  covering  the  four  year 
period,  may  be  made  up  of  one  increase  each  year.  I  only 
show  the  rate  in  1907  and  in  1910,  without  regard  to  how  many 
increases  were  made  between  1907  and  1910,  and  the  same  ap- 
plies between  1910  and  1913. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  understood  you  to  say  your  tables  from 
which  this  information  was  derived,  the  Bulletins  of  the  United 
States  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics,  covered  only  some  point  in 
1913,  and  bears  date  some  time  early  in  1914.  Do  you  know 
whether  increases  have  been  received  by  any  of  these  different 
employes  in  any  of  these  different  industries  since  the  figures 
for  the  reports  were  furnished  to  the  United  States  Bureau  of 
Labor  Statistics? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  did  not  include  that  in  my  investigation, 
but  I  am  informed  by  officials  of  other  organizations  that  there 
have  been  a  considerable  number  of  increases  since  1913  up 
to  date. 

Mr.  Phillips:     But  you  have  not  included  them? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  have  not  included  them,  because  I  did  not 
want  to  include  anything  in  rates  of  wages  of  otlier  employes 


500 

that  were  iu)t  authorized  by  the  Department  of  Labor  of  the 
United  States. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  How  do  the  hourly  rates  of  the  employes 
whom  you  have  listed  here,  taken  from  these  government  re- 
ports compare  with  the  hourly  rates  of  engineers  and  firemen  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Oh,  I  think  you  will  find  about  a  third  of  them 
are  higher  than  the  highest  rate  paid  to  the  engineers  on  the 
biggest  engines,  and  I  think  you  will  find  that  about  80  per  cent 
of  them  are  higher  than  the  highest  rate  paid  to  locomotive  fire- 
men on  the  biggest  engines.  Of  course,  the  difference  will  be 
much  greater  on  the  smaller  engines. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Taking  this  trade  you  referred  to  a  mo- 
ment ago — 

The  Chairman:     AVliat  page  are  you  on? 

Mr,  Phillips :  Page  59.  Let  us  begin  at  the  top  of  the  page, 
Chicago,  Illinois,  Bakers,  first  hands,  Bohemian  Union,  receiv- 
ing 29.63  cents  per  hour  in  1907,  33.33  cents  per  hour  in  1910,  and 
35.19  per  hour  in  1913.  How  do  those  rates  compare  with  engi- 
neers'  hourly  rates? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  them  less  than  engineers' 
rates. 

Mr.  Phillips:     How  about  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  Elsewhere  I  have  made  careful  comparisons. 
I  do  not  want  to  turn  to  that  now,  but  I  w^ant  to  call  your  at- 
tention to  something  that  you  have  overlooked. 

The  rate  that  you  quoted  for  the  Bakers,  First  hands,  Bo- 
hemian Union,  is  for  day  Avork ;  but  when  employes  in  these  in- 
dustries work  at  night  they  receive  a  much  higher  rate  of  w'ages. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  have  not  overlooked  that.  I  had  not  come 
to  that.  I  will  be  glad  to  have  you  explain  those  things  as  you 
go  along. 

Mr.  Carter:  In  1907,  the  rate  for  the  Bakers,  First  hands, 
Bohemian  Union,  Day  work,  -vvas  29.63  cents  an  hour,  while  the 
rate  for  night  work  was  33.33  an  hour,  and  1  think  if  you  will  go 
through  the  list  there  is  something  like  the  same  ditference  in 
rates  between  day  and  night  work. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  will  find  day  workers  paid  a  less  rate 
per  hour  or  day  than  night  workers,  as  a  rule. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  you  will  find  in  all  the  rates  reported 
by  the  Government,  that  where  men  are  required  to  work  at 


501 

iiigiit  at  any  tinie,  they  have  a  special  rate  for  iiijL>lit  work, 
higher,  I  think,  in  practically  every  instance,  than  the  rate  for 
the  same  work  in  daylight.  I  think  you  will  lind  also  that  in 
nearly  every  industry  aside  from  railroading,  even  when  no  rat*' 
is  provided  for  night  work,  they  receive  time  and  one-half,  if  not 
double  time,  when  they  are  required  to  work  nights,  with  tlie 
exception  that  some  trades  will  have  regular  night  shifts,  and 
for  those  exceptions  you  will  see  a  special  rate  for  night  work. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  take  up  the  building  trades  for  a 
moment.  The  next  ones  listed  on  the  same  page  are  the  Brick- 
layers. In  1907  they  are  listed  as  drawing  62i/>  cents  per  hour; 
in  1910  drawing  67i/>  cents  per  hour,  and  in  1913  drawing  75 
cents  per  hour.  How  do  those  rates  compare  with  our  rates 
for  engineers  in  freight  service? 

Mr.  Carter:  Much  higher  than  any  rate  that  any  locomo- 
tive engineer  ever  received,  on  the  hourly  basis,  I  mean. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Did  some  of  the  other  trades  pay  as  high  as 
75  cents  per  hour? 

Mr.  Carter:     In  1913? 

Mr.  Phillips:    Yes. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  you  will  find  perhaps  four  or  five  or 
six  trades  paying  75  cents  per  hour  in  1913,  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Gas  fitters,  for  example,  and  inside  wire 
men,  plasterers,  plumbers,  steam  fitters  and  stone  masons,  ap- 
pearing in  that  table. 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  you  will  find  it  as  you  have  read  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Others,  carpenters  for  example,  received  ()5 
cents  per  hour. 

Mr.  Carter:  Also  the  cement  workers  (finishers),  and  the 
sheet  metal  workers,  outside  work. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  painters? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes..  You  will  note  by  referring  to  the  sheet 
metal  workers  that  their  rate  is  practically  as  high  as  the  car- 
penters' rate,  although  I  must  confess  that  I  cannot  run  my  eye 
down  that  column  fast  enough  to  make  the  comparison. 

Mr.  Phillips :  According  to  this  table  the  sheet  metal  work- 
ers engaged  in  outside  work  draw  65  cents  per  hour,  and  in  gen- 
eral work  inside  they  draw  45  cents  per  hour.  Cornice  and  sky- 
light work  showed  for  1910  a  rate  of  50  cents  per  hour,  as  com- 


502 


pared  with  -15  cents  per  hour  in  1907,  but  there  is  no  showing  for 
1913.    Can  you  explain  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  In  Bulletin  143  they  omitted  that  classifica- 
tion of  sheet  metal  workers,  and  I  left  it  blank. 

You  will  notice,  however,  that  when  sheet  metal  workers 
work  inside  they  get  20  cents  an  hour  less  than  when  they  work 
out  in  the  rain  or  cold? 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  is,  the  outside  workers  get  more  than 
the  inside  workers? 

Mr.  Carter :  Apparently  20  cents  an  hour  less.  Let  us  see 
if  that  is  so.  Yes,  45  cents  is  the  rate  per  hour  for  the  inside 
workers,  and  65  cents  is  the  rate  for  the  outside  worker. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  in  the  marble  and  stone  trades,  the 
granite  cutters,  stone  cutters  and  so  forth,  follo^\^ng  in  the  same 
table,  their  rates  are  given  there  for  the  purpose  of  comparison, 
are  they  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  the  next  page,  page  60,  begin  the  metal 
trades,  showing  rates  per  hour  for  blacksmiths  in  manufactur- 
ing shops,  40  cents  an  hour,  outside  men  68.75 ;  in  railroad  shops 
40  cents  an  hour.  I  believe  you  said  a  moment  ago  that  the 
employes  engaged  in  these  various  trades  receive  time  and  one- 
half,  and  sometimes  double  time,  for  overtime. 

Mr.  Carter :     That  will  be  shown  later  in  a  table  here. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  applies  to  railroad  workers,  as  well 
as  other  workers  engaged  in  these  callings? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  think  so,  in  some  instances. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  printing  trades,  which  follow  in  detail, 
showing  varying  rates  from  40  to  50  cents  per  hour,  and  as 
high  as  56  cents  or  57  cents,  or  even- higher  in  some  instances, 
do  they  not? 

I  see  62  cents  here. 
Sixty-two  cents  per  hour  for  newspaper  com- 


Mr.  Carter: 

Mr.  Phillips 
positors. 

Mr.  Carter: 

Mr.  Phillips 


English  compositors. 
And  on  the  next  page  for  night  work  Eng- 
lish compositors  receive  67  cents  per  hour.     Is  that  correct? 
Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 
Mr.  Phillips:     Five  cents  an  hour  more. 


503 

Mr.  Carter :  Five  cents  an  hour  more  for  working  at  night 
than  for  working  in  the  day  time,  on  the  same  work. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  understood  you  to  say  that  these  classi- 
fications of  employes  were  all  taken  from  the  United  States 
Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics  Reports? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  that  while  as  great  a  number  of  trades 
would  not  be  shown  in  all  cities,  you  reported  every  trade 
shown? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  only  trades  omitted  were  those  shown 
in  Bulletin  143  that  were  not  shown  in  Bulletin  131.  Usually 
they  are  not  complete  trades,  but  divisions  of  trades. 

For  instance,  it  may  be  shown  that  in  the  bakery  trades 
there  was  a  Bohemian  Union,  or  a  Hebrew  Union,  or  something 
of  that  kind,  shown  in  Bulletin  143,  that  was  not  shown  in  Bul- 
letin 131 ;  and  in  order  to  avoid  useless  explanations,  I  just  did 
not  put  it  in  at  all;  but  wherever  there  is  a  possibility  of  iden- 
tifying all  the  trades  shown  in  Bulletin  131,  mth  all  the  trades 
shown  in  Bulletin  143, 1  have  included  them. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  where  a  comparatively  small  number  of 
trades  are  shown  in  any  city,  it  is  because  they  were  not  reported 
from  that  city. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  there  much  variation  in  the  rates  as  shown 
in  the  different  cities?  Have  you  made  any  comparison  to 
determine  that? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  not,  but  the  table  will  show  for  itself. 
For  instance,  bricklayers  in  Chicago  got  75  cents  an  hour  in 
1913. 

In  Dallas,  Texas,  they  got  87^2  cents  an  hour. 

In  Denver  they  got  75  cents  an  hour. 

In  Kansas  City  they  got  75  cents  an  hour. 

In  Little  Rock  they  got  75  cents  an  hour. 

In  Los  Angeles  they  got  75  cents  an  hour. 

In  Minneapolis  they  got  65  cents  an  hour. 

In  Milwaukee  they  got  67 y^  cents  an  hour. 

In  Memphis  they  got  75  cents  an  hour. 

In  New  Orleans  they  got  62i/o  cents  an  hour. 

In  Omaha  they  got  70  cents  an  hour. 

In  Portland  they  got  75  cents  an  hour. 


504 

In  Seattle  they  ^ot  75  cents  an  hour. 

In  Salt  Lake  they  got  75  cents  an  hour. 

In  San  Francisco  they  got  871/2  cents  an  hour. 

In  St.  Louis  they  got  70  cents  an  hour.  That  is  about  the 
variation. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  And  witli  tliese  slight  variations,  there  is  a 
general  similarity  in  the  rates  paid  in  the  different  cities,  al- 
though they  may  vary  slightly? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  there  is  a  similarity, 
while  I  must  confess  I  have  not  made  any  special  research  to 
ascertain  what  that  similarity  is. 

Mr.  Philli])s:     Still  there  is  a  similarity? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  is  the  first  time  I  checked  the  cities, 
but  you  will  notice  how  similar  the  bricklayers'  rates  were. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  turning  back  to  page  59,  I  want  to  ask 
another  (juestion  with  regard  to  tliese  percentages  of  increase. 
You  show  the  increase,  1913  over  1907,  in  the  various  trades,  of 
the  employes  in  the  various  industries. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  increase  includes  the  aggregate  increase 
for  the  six-year  period? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  includes  identically  the  same  period  as  was 
covered  in  table  7,  for  engineers  and  firemen,  as  was  explained, 
1913  over  1907.  I  don't  mean  that.  It  includes  one  vear  less, 
because  this  table  only  shows  1913  over  1907,  while  the  same 
columns,  for  engineers  and  firemen,  in  table  7,  would  be  1914 
over  1907.  It  shows  the  aggregate  percentage  of  increase,  in- 
cluding all  the  increases  between  1907  and  1913.  I  think  the 
tables  show  that  these  increases,  in  many  instances,  have  pro- 
gressed slightly  every  year,  almost  every  year;  but  I  have  only 
shown  three  rates  here,  the  rates  for  the  years  stated. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Well,  your  last  column,  1913  over  1910,  sets 
forth  the  percentage  of  increase  since  1910  up  to  the  point  in 
1913  covered  by  your  table? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  Where  the  noughts  appear  in  table  7, 
that  indicates  there  has  been  no  increase.  In  1914  over  1907, 
in  this  table,  you  will  note  no  noughts.  I  think  you  will  find  in 
every  instance  there  have  been  considerable  increases  between 
1910  and  1913. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  the  per  cent  of  increase  for  the  six-year 


505 

period  covered  would  show  in  the  next  to  the  last  .coliiinn  the 
aggregate  percentage  of  increase  for  that  period  and  the  i)er 
cent  eifective  since  1910  would  a|)pear  in  the  last  column? 

Mr.  Carter:  Only  the  percentages  of  the  increases,  up  to 
and  including  1913,  are  shown  in  the  last  column.  I  mean  to 
say,  by  that,  I  am  quite  sure  there  have  been  many  increases  in 
the  rates  of  wages  of  many  of  these  employes,  in  many  other 
leading  industries  since  1913,  and  therefore  the  last  column  only 
includes  up  to  1913, 

Mr.  Phillips:  Perhaps  you  did  not  ([uite  understand  my 
question,  Mr.  Carter.  I  asked,  if  the  next  to  the  last  column 
would  include  the  aggregate  of  all  increases  for  the  period 
covered,  percentage  of  increase,  and  the  last  column  would  show 
the  increases,  effective  subsequent  to  1910,  up  to  the  point 
covered  bj''  these  tables? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Some  time  in  1913,  I  understood  you  to  say? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  I  understood  you  to  ask  the  question  if 
this  was  the  percentage  of  all  increases  since  1910. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  meant  for  the  period  covered  by  your 
tables,  of  course. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  would  appear  then,  in  these  various  trades, 
taking  the  very  first  one,  for  example,  the  Bohemian  Union,  1913 
over  1907,  18.76  per  cent. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  5.58  per  cent  of  that  is  in  etfect,  1913 
over  1910. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes;  but  vou  will  understand  that  the  18.76 
includes  the  5.58. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  you  explained  that  before,  Mr.  Car- 
ter, so  it  was  clearly  understood.  Now,  as  you  go  on  down  the 
line,  taking  the  German  Union,  machine,  under  the  same  group- 
ing there,  an  aggregate  increase  of  32.37  per  cent  has  been 
granted  within  the  six-year  period,  and  25,02  per  cent  of  that  has 
become  eifective  between  1910  and  1913,  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  are  not  prepared  to  say  whether  any 
additional  increases  have  been  granted  since  that  time? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  don't  know. 


506 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  take  the  night  work,  the  German 
Union,  the  same  thing,  you  show  there  an  increase  of  37.50  per 
cent  for  1913  over  1907,  and  33.73  per  cent  hav  become  effective 
since  1910,  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  there  has  been  a  great  increase  in  night 
work  over  day  work  in  many  of  the  trades.  I  think  they  are 
making  more  distinctions  in  regard  to  that  for  printers  and 
bakers,  and  those  who  work  at  night. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  Hebrew  Union,  bakers,  second  liands, 
that  shows  an  increase  of  43.80  per  cent,  1913  over  1907?  I 
understand  that  includes  all  increases. 

Mr.  Carter :  All  increases. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And,  in  the  next  column,  the  figures  are 
exactly  the  same,  43.80. 

Mr.  Carter :  The  entire  increase  was  granted  between  1910 
and  1913. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Between  1910  and  1913,  the  period  covered 
by  your  table  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  If  you  will  refer  back  to  your  three 
columns,  you  will  note  the  rate  was  the  same  in  1907  and  1910, 
and  that  the  increased  rate  was  made  for  1913. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  the  same  applies  throughout  the  table, 
does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  there  any  place  in  there  where  a  decrease 
in  pay  is  shown  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  in  one  or  two  instances.  For  instance, 
on  page  61,  you  will  note  that  for  stereotjT)ers,  which  is  the  last 
line  and  refers  to  footnote  4,  there  is  shown  a  decrease  of  3.12 
per  cent  1913  under  1910.  The  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics  has  ex- 
plained that  the  hours  were  increased  in  1913,  with  earnings 
the  same  per  day  as  in  1912.  The  rate  was  the  same,  but  they 
worked  a  little  longer. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  there  other  exceptions  where  decreases 
appear? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  sir,  in  two  or  three  instances.  T^ery  few, 
however ;  they  indicate  an  error  corrected  rather  than  a  change 
in  the  rate.  In  some  instances — very  few,  however — two  or 
three — ^you  will  find  that  it  is  explained  or  at  least  intimated 
that  the  rate  quoted  in  Bulletin  131,  reported  for  1907  or  1910. 


507 

or  whatever  it  may  be,  was  in  error,  and,  in  order  to  correct  the 
error,  they  show  a  decrease.  In  carrying  out  the  plan  of  com- 
piling this  table,  we  have  shown  a  decrease,  although  it  is  an 
error  in  showing  such  decrease. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Although  a  few  exceptional  cases  of  that 
character  may  appear,  in  the  main,  there  have  been  material 
increases  in  these  various  branches  of  industry,  according  to 
the  Bureau  of  Labor  table? 

Mr.  Carter:  In  practically  all  instances  there  have  been 
marked  increases.  In  very,  very  few.  Without  counting,  I  will 
say  three  or  four  instances,  the  decrease  is  shown  and  usually 
it  is  explained,  which  would  indicate  an  error  rather  than  a 
decrease. 

Mr.  Phillips:  A  .considerable  portion  of  this  increase  has 
become  effective  since  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  will  you  turn  to  page  93.  You  have 
Table  9  there,  ''Hours  of  Labor  and  Overtime  Rates  in  Fourteen 
Western  Cities,  In  Effect  May  15th,  1912."  Would  you  please 
explain  this  table  and  its  intent. 

Mr.  Carter :  This  table  was  prepared  under  the  supervision 
of  the  Commissioner  of  Labor,  from  wage  agreements  on  file 
in  the  United  States  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics.  The  table 
evidently  was  prepared  some  time  ago,  and  it  only  brings  up 
the  information  to  May  15,  1912,  approximately  two  years  and 
a  half  ago.  I  had  no  information  of  a  similar  nature  of  a  later 
date,  therefore  I  used  this. 

Mr.  Phillips:  According  to  the  caption,  Mr.  Carter,  you 
used  the  fourteen  cities.  Why  did  you  not  use  the  same  number 
as  appear  in  your  previous  tables? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  did  not  find  them  in  the  table  prepared  by 
the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  these  fourteen  cities  a  part  of  the  sixteen 
included  in  your  former  tables? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Two  cities  have  been  omitted  and  you  have 
included  fourteen  of  the  sixteen? 

Mr.  Carter:  You  will  understand,  in  all  these  bulletins 
issued  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics,  they  include  both 
eastern  and  western  cities  and  also  southern  cities.    In  Table  8, 


508 

which  we  liavc  just  exi)lainod,  I  took  only  the  cities  from  Bulle- 
tins 131  and  143,  which  were  located  in  the  same  district  in 
which  this  wa^e  movement  is  bein^"  conducted.  Now,  I  did  not 
include  any  cities  in  the  Southeast  oi-  East,  because  there  was 
iM)  occasion  to  do  so.  Now,  the  same  applies  to  Table  9.  In 
this  table,  prepared  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics,  they 
show  the  same  information  for  New  York,  Philadelphia,  and 
other  cities;  but  I  only  re])roduced  information  for  those  cities 
wdiich  are  covered  in  the  present  arbitration. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  you  understand  that  for  the  cities  in- 
cluded, are  the  same  classes  of  employes  in  the  same  cities  that 
are  covered  by  your  previous  tables? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  your  investigations  shown  that  the 
hours  of  service  for  employes  in  industries  other  than  the  loco- 
motive service,  are  shorter  or  more  favorable  than  tlie  hours  for 
engineers  and  tiremen  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  in  all  wages  reported 
in  the  bulletins  issued  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics,  an 
eight-hour  day  is  in  effect,  with  possibly  some  exceptions — the 
eight-hour  day  is  usually  in  effect. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  note  you  show  here,  with  regard  to  the 
bricklayers,  the  first  appearing  in  this  table,  that  they  work 
from  8  A.  M.  to  5  P.  M.,  Monday  to  Friday,  8  A.  M.  to  12  noon 
on  Saturday,  44  hours  during  the  week.  What  would  be  their 
rate  of  overtime  if  required  to  work  outside  of  these  hours  dur- 
ing the  week  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  From  Monday  to  Friday,  if  they  were  required 
to  work  over  eight  hours,  or  on  Saturday,  if  required  to  work 
over  four  hours,  they  would  receive  one  and  one-half  times  the 
rate;  that  is,  the  rate  would  be  increased  fifty  per  cent.  On 
Saturday,  if  the  time  began  before  8  A.  M.  and  if  they  worked 
any  time  on  Sundays  or  holidays,  they  would  receive  double 
wages. 

Mr.  Phillips :  What  would  they  receive  after  noon,  if  they 
worked  on  Saturdays? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  table  is  not  quite  clear  on  that.  It  says 
Monday  to  Friday,  one  and  one-half  time.  There  is  a  footnote 
there,  number  1,  which  says,  **No  work  shall  be  done  between 
5  and  7  P.  M.  and  6  and  8  A.  M.,  except  in  cases  of  actual  ne- 


509 

cessity."  Their  rule  would  preclude  their  working-  those  hours, 
under  any  circumstances,  except  in  cases  of  necessity.  Then 
the  overtime  rate  would  apply. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  the  colmnn  headed  "Saturday,"  second 
line! 

Mr.  Carter:     Double  time  after  noon. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Would  that  indicate  that  double  time  would 
be  paid? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes.     I  did  not  read  that  second  line. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Also  for  Sundays  and  holidays  1 

Mr.  Carter:     Double  time  for  Sundays  and  holidays. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Does  the  same  apply  to  carpenters '! 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  the  carpenters  get  double  time  all  the 
time  after  eight  hours — four  hours  on  Saturday. 

Mr.  Phillips :  After  four  hours  on  Saturday,  double  time, 
if  required  to  work  more  than  four  hours  f 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  stated,  Mr.  Carter,  in  explaining  this 
table  at  the  beginning,  that  you  had  made  use  of  such  informa- 
tion as  was  available,  having  only  these  tables  w^hich  were  com- 
pleted down  to  May  15,  1912.  Have  you  any  reason  to  believe 
that  the  conditions  of  service  of  these  employes  are  less  favor- 
able now  than  they  were  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Carter:  Why,  much  more  favorable,  and  I  had  a 
special  report  on  that  matter  which  I  thought  I  had  included 
in  the  table,  but  I  don 't  see  it  now ;  but  I  had  a  reply  to  an  in- 
quiry that  I  made  of  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics,  and  it 
indicates  that  many  more  trades  have  gone  on  the  eight-hour 
basis  and  time  and  a  half  for  overtime  than  sliow^n  in  the  list 
prepared  for  May  15,  1912;  but  on  account  of  the  lack  of  time 
to  complete  all  these  investigations,  I  could  not  wait  to  get  a 
revised  statement ;  I  had  to  take  what  I  had. 

Mr.  Phillips :     In  that  footnote  4  here,  Mr.  Carter — 

Mr.  Carter :     What  page  1 

Mr.  Phillips:  Page  93 — you  say:  ''Forty-nine  and  a  half 
hours  during  June,  July,  August  and  September."  What  is 
meant  by  that,  can  you  tell  us — it  refers  to  carpenters,  millmen  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  Under  the  caption  ''Hours  of  Labor 
per  Week"  it  shows  54  hours.  The  footnote  says  "Forty-nine 
and  a  half  hours  during  June,  July,  August  and  September." 


510 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  is  shown,  I  believe,  if  you  read  across 
the  page,  they  have  a  nine-hour  day,  which  would  be  54  hours 
a  week,  but  work  only  forty-nine  and  one-half  hours  during  the 
hot  months.     Is  that  what  you  understand  from  that? 

Mr.  Carter :  That  is  a  conclusion  one  could  reach.  Under- 
stand, that  this  table  is  given  for  what  it  is  worth. 

Mr.  Phillips :  This  double  time  for  holidays  and  Sundays 
— do  you  know  what  holidays  are  included? 

Mr.  Carter:  No.  I  think  you  will  find  in  the  footnotes 
that  they  sometimes  refer  to  that.  These  footnotes  are  repro- 
duced from  the  table,  as  printed.  I  should  surmise  it  means 
all  holidays  that  are  generally  kept,  by  everybody  except  rail- 
road men. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Here  is  a  footnote  here,  number  6,  which 
reads :  ' '  No  work  to  be  done  on  Labor  Day  under  any  pretense 
except  by  consent  of  Presidents  of  Manufacturers'  Association 
and  Carpenters'  Distriot  Council."  I  should  think  that  would 
be  one  holiday  that  they  would  all  observe,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  should  presume  so.  That  is,  if  they  could 
make  the  rule  stick. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Footnote  10  also  says  *'No  work  to  be  done 
on  Labor  Day,  except  in  case  of  necessity,  the  contractor  to  be 
the  judge  of  necessity." 

Mr.  Carter :    Well,  there  the  contractor  is  the  judge. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  engineers  and  firemen  get  any  extra  paj" 
for  any  holidays  allowed  them  ? 

Mr.  Carter :     Not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  they  get  any  extra  pay  for  working  on 
Sundays  or  holidays? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  have  never  noticed  a  schedule  making  any 
special  provision  for  an  extra  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  the  conditions,  reported  for  the  various 
cities  referred  to  here,  similar  to  those  reported  for  Chicago? 

Mr.  Carter :  Similar,  yes.  You  will  understand,  that  table 
was  placed  in  there  and  if  I  had  more  time  I  might  have  drawn 
some  comparisons  very  favorable  to  our  side ;  but  I  am  not  going 
to  do  it,  because  anyone  who  has  the  book  can  draw  his  own  com- 
parisons. This  was  all  done  in  less  time  than  should  have  been 
used. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Have  you  made  any  estimate  of  the  average 


511 

earnings  of  the  employes  covered  by  the  tables  in  this  exhibit? 

Mr.  Carter :  On  page  8,  table  1,  there  is  shown  the  average 
rate  paid  to  all  employes,  in  other  industries  in  the  sixteen  cities. 
This  average  was  secured  by  the  simple  process  of  adding  all  the 
rates  on  an  adding  machine  and  dividing  the  sum  by  the  number 
of  rates. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  include  therein  the  rates  for  en- 
gineers and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  in  the  same  manner.  All  the  rates  for 
engineers  are  added,  regardless  of  the  size  of  the  engine,  a  big 
engine,  a  little  engine,  a  middle-sized  engine — all  the  rates  are 
added  together,  and,  then,  after  you  have  your  ribbon  off  your' 
adding  machine,  you  count  the  rates  and  divide  the  sum  by  the 
number  of  rates,  and  that  is  the  average.  On  page  9  you  will 
see  the  same  character  of  table  for  the  year  1910.  The  table  on 
page  8  are  the  rates  for  1907,  and  on  page  10  you  will  find  the 
average  for  1913.  The  same  list  of  employes,  except  it  shows  the 
average  rates  for  the  three  different  periods. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  give  here  the  names  of  the  cities  in  the 
footnote,  do  you  not,  Mr.  Carter — the  cities  included? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  the  cities  included  in  the  averages  are 
shown. 

Mr.  Phillips:     They  are  the  same  cities  included  in  Table  7? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  in  Table  8. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Tables  7  and  8? 

Mr.  Carter:  No.  Table  7  includes  a  myriad  of  cities, 
towns  and  villages. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Table  7  applies  to  engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Table  8  includes  cities  within  the  territory 
through  which  these  railroads  operate? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :     And  those  are  the  names  of  the  cities  there? 

Mr.  Carter :  These  are  the  names  of  the  cities  included  in 
bulletins  131  and  143  in  this  territory. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  have  not  here  included  St.  Paul,  I  note, 
and  you  have  explained  why  that  city  is  not  included  in  the 
table? 

Mr.  Carter :  When  this  entire  book  was  sent  to  the  print- 
ers, we  had  St.  Paul  in  there;  we  had  seventeen  cities  in  the 


512 

lioadiiii^'  and  had  vSt.  Paul  in  the  footnotes;  then  tlic  (juestion 
t-amo  up  of  wliy  should  I  include  St.  Paul  and  have  someone 
get  nj)  and  question  the  accuracy  of  the  table,  so  I  left  out  St. 
Paul. 

j\Ir.  Piiillips:  Vou  explained,  I  believe,  that  you  put  the 
hourlv  rates  on  an  adding  machine  and  then  divided  the  total 
by  the  number  of  rates  added? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  The  same  method  was  used  for  engineers 
and  firemen  as  for  the  other  employes,  I  understood  you  to  say? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr,  Phillips:  You  did  not,  then,  Mr.  Carter,  take  the  rate 
paid  on  the  largest  locomotive,  the  highest  rate  paid  to  engi- 
neers, and  then  the  rate  paid  on  the  smallest  locomotive,  and 
add  those  and  reach  an  average  of  that  character  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Under  the  present  methods  of  wage  making, 
it  would  be  practically  impossible  to  do  anything  of  the  kind. 
I  will  say  however,  that  if  the  wages  in  this  territory  were  based 
on  weights  on  drivers,  grouped  like  our  proposition,  it  would  be 
a  simple  matter. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But,  here  you  have  found  a  general  average 
or  an  arbitrary  average,  I  believe  you  termed  it,  did  you  not?. 

Mr.  Carter :  Well,  it  is  a  general  average.  It  is  arbitrary 
in  not  showing  the  average  rates  of  engineers  on  different  classes 
of  locomotives.  It  shows  the  average  rates  of  engineers  and 
firemen  on  all  the  rates  reported. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Did  you  find  it  more  difficult  to  find  the  aver- 
age hourly  rate  of  engineers  and  firemen  than  you  did  for  em- 
ployes in  other  lines  of  labor? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  just  had  to  add  more  rates,  was  all.  There 
were  numerous  rates  shown.  You  will  note,  that  so  far  as  ap- 
plies to  bricklavers,  which  heads  the  list  here.  I  have  onlv  to 
add  fourteen  rates,  while  for  engineers  and  firemen  I  had  to 
add  all  the  rates,  shown  for  every  road,  on  every  locomotive, 
for  engineers,  and  the  same  for  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  said  you  added  for  brick  layers  fourteen 
rates  I 

Mr.  Carter:     Fourteen,  ves. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Did  you  mean  to  say  sixteen  rates? 


513 

Mr,  Carter:  1  meant  to  say  sixteen  rates,  yes.  Under- 
stand, however,  the  fourteen  applies  to  Table  10. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Table  9,  isn't  it! 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  Table  9. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Showing  the  rates  and  hours  for  overtime? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  In  order  to  place  that  right  on  the  rec- 
ord, Table  9  showing  the  day's  work,  and  the  rates  for  over- 
time, includes  fourteen  western  cities. 

Table  8,  showing  the  rates  for  emi)loyes  in  other  industries 
includes  sixteen  cities. 

Table  7,  for  engineers  and  firemen,  includes,  we  may  say, 
every  railroad  terminal  in  the  district  involved  in  this  arbitra- 
tion. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  entire  territory  covered  by  the  rail- 
roads? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  After  having  reached  this  average  hourly 
rate,  Mr.  Carter,  how  do  you  find  your  engineers  compare  with 
workers  in  other  industries? 

Mr.  Carter:  Of  the  forty-six  averages  shown,  or  rather, 
of  the  averages  show^n  for  forty-six  trades,  and  that  includes 
firemen  twice,  once  for  oil  burning  engines  and  once  for  coal 
burning  engines, — of  these  forty-six  different  classes  of  labor, 
the  locomotive  engineers  in  freight  service  fall  down  to  the  four- 
teenth position  in  the  list.  That  is,  thirteen  other  trades  are 
getting  higher  average  rates  than  the  locomotive  engineers  are, 
in  the  same  territory. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And,  for  firemen  how  is  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  In  1907,  firemen  on  coal-burning  engines  fell 
to  thirty-seventh  in  the  list  of  forty-six,  and  on  oil-burning  en- 
gines fell  from  thirty-eighth  in  the  list  of  forty-six.  That  was 
in  1907. 

Mr.  Phillips:     How  did  they  stand  in  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:  They  ranked  in  the  same  manner.  That  is, 
locomotive  engineers  in  freight  service,  were  number  14  in  the 
list  of  forty-six;  locomotive  firemen  on  coal-burning  engines, 
freight  service,  were  number  37;  locomotive  firemen  on  oil- 
burning  engines,  freight  service,  were  38.     That  was  for  1910. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Now,  take  1913,  where  do  they  stand  in  1913? 

Mr.  Carter:     In  1913  tlie  engineers  and  firemen  lost  two 


514 

numbers.  That  is,  the  engineers'  rate  instead  of  being  number 
14,  as  in  1907  and  1910,  now  appears  as  number  16.  It  shows 
that  they  are  falling  in  average  rates  compared  with  other 
employes. 

The  locomotive  firemen,  coal-burning  engines,  fell  from  37 
to  38;  and  on  oil-burning  engines,  from  38  to  39. 

Mr,  Phillips:  What  classes  of  laborers  rank  ahead  of  loc(i- 
motive  engineers,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:     Take  the  present  time,  last  year,  for  instance? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes;  that  will  exemplify  it,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Carter:  Bricklayers,  plasterers,  steamfitters,  plumbers, 
gasfitters,  marble  setters,  structural  iron  workers,  cement  work- 
ers, granite  cutters,  compositors,  stone  cutters,  inside  wiremen, 
carpenters,  linotype  operators,  book  and  job  offices. 

The  Chairman:     Mr.  Phillips,  will  you  kindly  suspend. 

The  Board  will  take  a  recess  until  2:30. 

(Whereupon,  at  12:30  o'clock  P.  M.,  a  recess  was  taken  until 
2:30  o'clock  P.M.) 

After  Recess. 

W.  S.  CARTER  was  recalled  for  further  examination,  and, 
having  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  I  believe  just  before  adjourn- 
ment we  were  on  page  10,  discussing  Table  3,  or  possibly  we 
were  on  page  8  or  9,.  discussing  Table  2;  but  these  tables  are 
very  similar,  except  that  they  are  for  different  years.  I  believe 
I  had  asked  a  question  as  to  the  relative  position  occupied  by 
locomotive  freight  engineers  in  comparison  with  employes  in 
other  lines  of  industry,  and  j'ou  had  answered  that  they  stood 
sixteenth,  and  had  named  the  different  classes  of  employes  who 
rank  ahead  of  them  in  hourly  rates.    Do  you  so  recall  it? 

Mr.  Carter:    Average  hourly  rates. 

The  Chairman:  The  witness  had  just  enumerated  certain 
cities  in  comparison  with  others,  at  the  .close  of  the  morning 
session. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Is  that  correct? 

The  Chairman:    Yes. 

Mr.  Carter:     Certain  cities  for  certain  trades. 

Mr.  Phillips:    Now,  in   Table  3  on  page  10,  how  many 


515 

different  classes  of  employes  rank  ahead  of  locomotive  firemen 
in  average  hourly  rates? 

Mr.  Carter:     Thirty-seven  out  of  a  possible  forty-six. 

Mr.  Phillips:  A  large  number  of  them.  I  believe  I  asked 
you  how  many  ranked  ahead  of  locomotive  engineers.  Now, 
what  trades  rank  behind  them — not  the  number,  but  the  classes 
of  service  that  rank  behind  locomotive  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  Steamfitters'  helpers,  bakers — third  hands, 
laborers,  blacksmiths'  helpers,  boiler  makers'  helpers,  press 
feeders  (book  and  job),  and  inside  wiremen's  helpers. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Cement  workers'  laborers,  bakers — second 
hands,  and  numerous  other  branches  of  service  which  are  gener- 
ally considered  unskilled  labor,  rank  ahead  of  locomotive  fire- 
men, do  they  not  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  The  hod  carrier  in  all  these  cities  shows 
an  average  rate  of  wages  per  hour  of  40.27,  while  the  locomotive 
fireman  on  coal-burning  engines  and  freight  service,  averages 
33.85  cents  per  hour. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  pointed  out  that  as  between 
1907  and  1913,  or  perhaps  between  1910  and  1913,  some  addi- 
tional branches  of  service  had  some  increases  which  put  them 
ahead  of  both  locomotive  engineers  and  locomotive  firemen  in 
freight  service,  when  their  wages  were  considered  on  an  average 
hourly  basis? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  I  think  it  was  the  carpenters  and  the 
linotype  operators  in  book  and  30b  offices,  who  passed  the  engi- 
neers between  1907  and  1913.  Bakers — third  hands,  who  I  un- 
derstand are  helpers,  passed  the  firemen  between  1910  and  1913. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  will  you  please  turn  to  page  14,  table  5  ? 
Will  you  explain  the  meaning  and  intent  of  this  fable? 

Mr.  Carter :  It  simply  shoAvs  the  methods  adopted  to  reach 
th«  average  wages.  Table  5  and  Table  6,  appearing  on  pages 
14  to  17  inclusive,  are  identical  except  as  to  arrangement.  Table 
5  was  arranged  in  order  of  amount  of  increase  in  rates  of 
wages,  1913  over  1907. 

Table  6  is  arranged  in  order  of  amount  of  increase  of  rates 
of  wages,  1913  over  1910. 

Understand,  this  is  not  arranged  according  to  the  average 
rates  of  wages,  but  the  percentage  of  increase  in  wages. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Then  in  the  next  to  the  last  column,  the 


516 

31.85  per  cent  of  increase  in  1913  over  11)07  would  sliow  that 
the  bakers — tliird  hands — received  the  highest  per  cent  of  in- 
crease within  tliat  period. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Pliillii)s:     Tlie  highest  aggregate  per  cent  of  increase! 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes;  cement  workers'  helpers  next,  boiler 
makers'  lidpers  next,  bakers — second  hands — next,  and  press 
feeders,  book  and  job,  next.     I  take  the  first  five. 

I  think  you  will  find,  that  those  who  were  the  low^est  paid 
in  1907  seem  to  have  received  the  greatest  increases  since  that 
time.     There  is  a  tendency  to  raise  them. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  say  Table  6,  on  page  16,  is  similar,  but 
arranged  on  a  different  basis '! 

Mr.  Carter:  The  only  difference  is  the  names  are  arranged 
in  order  of  the  amounts  of  increase  of  the  rates  of  wages,  1913 
over  1910 — that  is,  the  percentages  of  increase. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  other  words,  the  next  to  the  last  column 
governs  the  relative  position  of  the  different  classes  of  service 
in  Table  5,  and  the  last  column  governs  their  relative  position 
in  Table  6,  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Wliere  do  locomotive  engineers  and  firemen 
appear  in  Table  6,  page  14  f 

Mr.  Carter:  Locomotive  engineers  appear  as  number  39, 
in  a  list  of  45.     That  is  for  the  entire  period,  1913  over  1907. 

Mr.  Phillips :     And  firemen  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Locomotive  firemen,  on  coal  burning  engines, 
appear  as  number  36  in  a  list  of  46.  Jjocomotive  firemen  on 
oil  burning  engines  appear  as  number  44  in  a  list  of  45 ;  only  one 
lot  of  people  worse  off  than  the  firemen  on  oil  burning  engines, 
and  they  are  the  stone  cutters. 

Mr.  Phillips :  How  do  the  rates  appearing  here  of  stone 
cutters  compare  with  the  locomotive  firemen! 

Mr.  Carter:     In  1914? 

Mr.  Phillips:  For  the  different  years  for  which  the  com- 
parisons are  made. 

Mr.  Carter :  In  1907,  on  page  8,  Table  1,  they  were  receiv- 
ing 59.79  cents  an  hour,  while  locomotive  firemen  were  receiving 
29.26  cents  an  hour.     The  stone  cutters  w^ere  advanced  from 


517 

59.79  cents  in  1907  to  (31.04  cents  in  1913.     They  had  a  very 
slight  increase. 

Mr.  Phillips:  How  were  the  firemen's  wages  for  tliat  par 
ticiilar  year,  freight  fii'emen? 

Mr.  Carter:     What  year? 

Mr.  Phillips :  1913.  You  gave  1907,  1  believe,  as  L>9  cents 
and  something. 

Mr.  Carter :  In  the  arrangement  of  these  trades,  in  accord- 
ance with  the  volume  of  percentage  increase  in  wages,  tliat 
places  the  locomotive  engineers  at  the  foot  of  tiie  list  with  an 
increase  of  .06  of  one  per  cent. 

Mr.  Phillips  :     You  are  speaking  now  from  Table  (i :' 

Mr.  Carter:     Table  6. 

Mr.  Phillips:     On  page  16? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes.  You  understand,  these  tables  all  extend 
from  page  16  to  page  17. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  engineers  and  firemen  didn't  get  on  the 
first  page,  did  they? 

Mr.  Carter :  No.  The  lowest  in  the  list  of  45  are  the  loco- 
motive engineers,  who  received,  1913  over  1910,  a  percentage  of 
increase  equalling — that  is,  the  average  percentage  of  increase 
equalling  .06  of  one  per  cent.  If  they  had  received  100  times  as 
much  as  they  did  receive,  they  would  have  had  a  six  per  cent 
increase.  The  next  is  locomotive  firemen  on  coal  bui-ning  en- 
gines; they  received  the  exact  same  amount  of  i)ercentage  of 
average  increase,  .06  of  one  per  cent.  Locomotive  firemen  on  all 
oil  burning  engines  received  .09  of  one  per  cent.  You  under- 
stand that  is  the  average  of  all  the  rates.  Everyl)ody  else 
received  from  1.11  per  cent  up  to  9.21  per  cent  in  three  vears, 
1910  to  1913.  *        ■ 

Mr.  Phillips:  Some  of  the  higher  paid  trades — I  see  the 
stone  cutters  at  the  bottom  again — received  a  smaller  increase? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  you  will  find  that  those  receiving  the 
highest  rates  of  wages  in  1910  usually  received  a  small  increase 
since  1910.  You  will  find  the  stone  cutters,  bricklayers,  black- 
smiths, and  such  as  that,  are  low.  In  fact,  you  will  find  tlie  hod 
carriers  have  received  only  2.47  per  cent  increase,  since  1910.  up 
to  1913.    They  rank  quite  high,  however,  on  the  list. 

Mr.  Phillips:  They  were  ahead  of  the  firemen,  tlic  freight 
firemen? 


518 

Mr.  Carter:     Verj'  much  so. 

Mr.  l*hilli])s:  Were  stoue  cutters,  l)laeksmiths  and  these 
others  aliead  of  engineers? 

Mr.  Carter:     Very  much  so. 

Mr.  Pliillii)s:  Kven  though  they  were  far  ahead  of  engi- 
neers in  1910  in  the  hourly  rate,  still  since  1910  they  have  re- 
ceived more  in  the  increases? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  And  their  rates  are  considerably  ahead  of 
the  engineers  still? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  I  think  by  referring  to  table  6,  pages 
16  and  17,  you  will  note  that,  ordinarily,  those  receiving  the 
highest  percentage  of  increase  are  those  that  appear  well  down 
on  the  table  number  3  on  page  10. 

Cement  Avorkers'  helpers  show  a  percentage  of  increase, 
1913  over  1910,  of  19.21  per  cent  in  the  three  years. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  You  will  find  cement  workers'  helpers  on 
page  8,  Table  1,  Mr.  Carter.  I  find  you  have  here  listed  cement 
workers '  laborers. 

Mr.  Carter :  That  is  a  change  in  the  name  between  Bulletin 
131  and  Bulletin  143. 

Mr.  Phillips :     You  understand  it  to  be  the  same  employes  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  understand  it  to  be  the  same. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Their  rate  at  that  time  was  34.82  cents  per 
hour. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  You  mean  as  to  Table  1.  The  cement 
workers'  helpers  there  appear  as  36.28.  I  thought  that  was 
what  you  were  talking  about. 

Mr.  Phillips:  No,  I  caught  the  cement  workers'  laborers. 
Now,  in  the  next  table  they  appear  as  38.53,  that  is  the  cement 
workers'  helpers,  page  9. 

Mr.  Carter:     That  is  right. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  between  1910,  when  their  rate  w^as 
38.53,  up  to  1913,  when  their  rate  appears  at  43.89  cents  per 
hour,  that  shows  that  increase  of  19.21  per  cent  there,  does  it, 
the  highest  increase  within  the  period  as  shown  in  table  6? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  you  are  mistaken  in  quoting  the  rate. 
The  rate  is  29.72  cents  per  hour. 

Mr.  Phillips :     No,  turn  to  page  10,  Mr.  Carter. 

Mr.  Carter:     All  right. 


519 

Mr.  Phillips :  In  the  first  line  of  the  sixth  group,  cement 
workers'  helpers. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :     43. S9  cents  per  hour. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Now,  in  1910— 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  In  the  next  to  the  last  line  of  the  sixth  group 
you  have  38.53  cents  per  hour. 

Mr.  Carter:     What  page  are  you  quoting  from? 

Mr.  Phillips :     Page  9,  Table  2. 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  38.53. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  difference  between  38.53  and  43.89,  as 
appearing  in  the  next  table,  is  indicated  by  this  19.21  per  cent 
of  increase  during  that  period? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Those  rates  are  considerably  more  than  the 
rates  paid  to  locomotive  firemen,  are  they  not,  by  the  hour; 
average  hourly  rates  for  freight  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter :  Look  on  page  10,  Table  3,  and  you  will  see  it 
is.  They  are  just  two  numbers  above.  Locomotive  firemen  on 
oil  burning  engines  show  an  average  of  32.86;  the  next  one 
above,  locomotive  firemen,  coal  burning  engines,  freight  service, 
33.85. 

Next,  bakers-second  hands,  34.96.  Now,  comes  cement 
workers'  helpers — 

Mr.  Phillips:     No,  isn't  that  laborers? 

Mr.  Carter:     Laborers. 

Mr.  Phillips:     The  helpers  go  much  higher. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  the  helpers  go  much  higher.  Where  are 
those? 

Mr.  Stone:     Two  sections  above  that. 

Mr.  Carter:     Two  sections  above  that.    That  would  be  10. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  one  point  I  wanted  j^ou  to  explain,  Mr. 
Carter,  if  you  could,  is  how  these  apparently  high  percentages 
of  increases  appear  for  these  men?  I  believe  you  explained  tliat 
generally  they  applied  to  the  lower  paid  workers. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  I  noticed  it  while  looking  at  this  table. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  would  .consider  a  cement  worker,  a  ce- 
ment laborer  or  a  cement  helper  among  the  low  paid  workers? 


520 

Mr.  Carter:  Ai)i>areiitly  not,  if  you  will  go  back  to  page  10, 
he  would  be  about  the  medium;  run  about  the  middle  of  the  page. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  you  comjuled  any  averages  for  yard- 
men, engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  you  comjiiled  any  tables  showing  their 
rates  of  wages? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Where  will  they  be  found,  please? 

Mr.  Carter :  Table  10,  beginning  on  page  105,  shows  ' '  Rates 
of  Wages  Per  Hour  and  Earnings  for  Continuous  Service  of 
Engineers  in  Switching  Service  on  Western  Railroads." 

By  referring  to  page  113,  you  will  find  Table  11,  which  is 
"Rates  of  Wages  Per  Hour  and  Earnings  for  Continuous  Service 
of  Firemen  in  Switching  Service  on  Western  Railroads. ' ' 

I  will  say  that  all  that  appears  after  page  104,  which  is 
made  up  of  Tables  10,  11  and  12,  was  prepared  after  the  other 
matter  was  in  type  and  had  been  sent  to  the  printers.  It  seemed 
that  we  might  have  time  to  get  up  a  little  more  information 
and  having  about  completed  our  work  for  the  printers,  we  de- 
voted our  time  that  we  had  left  to  finding  out  something  about 
switching  engineers  and  switching  firemen  and  hostlers. 

Mr.  Phillips:  How  many  roads  have  you  included  in  this 
tabulation,  Mr.  Carter;  all  of  the  principal  lines  in  the  move- 
ment? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  I  have  not  counted  them.  They  are 
there;  you  can  see  them.  They"  extend  from  page  105,  over  to 
and  including  page  112.   .About  eight  pages. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  there  appear  to  be  any  uniformity  in 
the  rates  paid  for  yard  service  in  different  parts  of  the  western 
territory? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  there  is  a  close  approach  to  uniformity 
or  standardization,  as  you  like  to  call  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  a  higher  rate  paid  to  engineers,  when 
large  engines,  or  road  engines,  are  used  in  yard  service? 

Mr.  Carter:  A  comparatively  few  roads  have  made  special 
rates  for  the  large  engines.  Most  of  the  roads  only  make  rates 
for  the  engines  generally  used  in  yard  service. 

Mr.  Phillips:     I  note,  throughout  this  table,  on  the  first 


521 

page  and  on  the  succeeding  pages,  that  rates  for  first  and  second 
class  yards  are  shown.    Do  you  know  why  this  is? 

Mr.  Carter:  During  past  years,  as  wage  increases  have 
been  secured  by  engineers  and  firemen,  they  have  been  unable 
to  secure  the  wage  increase  in  all  yards,  but  they  have  secured 
increases  for  the  principal  yards,  and  the  wage  schedules  desig- 
nate them  as  first  and  second  class  yards.  In  order  to  give  addi- 
tional information,  you  will  notice  that  there  are  reference  notes 
all  through  Table  10.  By  referring  to  pages  121  and  122  you 
will  see  wiiere  these  first  and  second  class  yards  are. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  what  constitutes  the  (lilTprfTico 
between  a  first-class  vard  and  a  second-class  vard? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  I  do  not,  unless  it  is  that  they  use  a  big, 
heavy  engine  in  the  first-class  yards,  and  have  to  on  account  of 
heavier  traffic,  or  heavier  work  to  do.  I  think  that  ordinarily 
where  a  railroad  has  two  classes  of  switch  engines,  you  will  find 
the  smaller  engine  in  the  second-class  yard  and  the  larger  engine 
in  the  first-class  vard.    At  least,  that  is  where  it  should  be. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  If  the  work  in  the  second-class  yard  became 
heavy  enough  to  require  the  use  of  large  first-class  engines, 
would  that  be  any  different  than  in  the  first-class  yards'? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  under  the  system  employed  in  tlie  past, 
no  difference  what  the  size  of  the  engine,  if  it  is  in  a  second-class 
yard  it  takes  the  lower  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  understand  that  the  rates  are  diff'erent, 
but  do  you  think  the  work  would  be  any  different,  if  the  work 
got  heavy  enough  in  the  so-called  second-class  yard  to  necessi- 
tate the  employment  of  a  large  engine?  Would  the  work  done 
by  a  large  engine  in  a  second-class  yard  be  any  different  from 
the  work  done  by  the  same  engine  in  a  first-class  yardf 
Mr.  Carter:  I  cannot  see  any  difference  whatever. 
Mr.  Phillips :  On  page  106  I  should  like  to  call  your  atten- 
tion to  one  road,  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  eastern 
lines.  At  the  top  of  the  page  are  given  first  the  rates  for  first 
and  second-class  vards,  and  then  follows  a  classification  bv  let- 

•  7  » 

ters,  presumably  the  system  method  of  classifying  engines. 
Would  you  understand  from  that  that  these  were  road  engines? 
Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  most  of  them  are  road 
engines,  but  I  would  not  be  surprised  if  you  should  find  some 
very  large  switch  engines  on  that  road,  right  here  in  the  city  of 


522 

Chicago.    1  will  confess  I  have  not  seen  them,  but  my  judgment 
would  lead  me  to  believe  they  are  there. 

]\lr.  Phillips:  These  various  classifications,  when  used  in 
yard  service,  regardless  of  whether  they  are  road  engines  or 
yard  engines,  carry  a  higher  rate  of  pay  for  engineers  than 
a]i]iears  in  the  first  tabulation,  do  they  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  if  they  are  road  engines,  it  would  ap- 
pear that  on  that  road  they  have  a  higher  rate  of  pay  when  road 
engines  are  used  in  yard  service? 

Mr.  Carter :     It  seems  so  from  the  rates  quoted, 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  page  108  there  is  even  a  more  extensive 
classification  for  the  Great  Northern  Railroad. 

Mr.  Carter:  Without  having  specific  knowledge  u])oii  the 
subject,  I  think  that  perhaps  they  quote  a  yard  rate  for  all  their 
locomotives. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  that  a  road  engine  used  in  yard  service 
would  pay  a  higher  rate  than  a  yard  engine  used  for  switching 
in  the  yard? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  rates  as  they  appear  here  for  engineers 
in  yard  service  on  the  Great  Northern  are  as  low  as  42.5  to  as 
high  as  50  cents  an  hour. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  were  quoting  a  first  class  yard  rate,  were 
you  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Philli])s :  I  note  that  second  class  yards,  at  the  top  of 
the  page,  pay  as  low  as  40  cents  an  hour. 

Mr.  Carter:  A  second  class  yard  would  pay  40  cents,  and 
then  on  one  of  the  yards  below  it  is  50  cents. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  will  note  there  that  engines  of  the  last 
classes,  N-1,  M-1,  M-2,  and  L-1,  pay  55  cents  an  hour,  do  they 
not? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  but  engines  of  class  N-1  and  M-1  on  the 
Great  Northern  are  very  large  Mallet  engines. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Do  they  ever  use  Mallets  in  yard  service? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  cannot  answer  that. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  do  not  mean  on  the  Great  Northern.  I 
mean  any  place. 

Mr.  Carter:  1  am  infonned  from  the  audience  that  they 
are. 


523 

Mr  Phillips:  Now,  turn  to  Table  11,  beginning  on  page 
113.  Is  the  information  given  therein  for  firemen  similar  to 
that  for  engineers  f 

Mr.  Carter :  Table  11  is  a  companion  table  to  Table  10,  the 
only  difference  being  that  Table  10  gives  engineers'  rates  while 
liable  11  gives  firemen's  rates. 

Mr.  Phillips :     I  believe  you  explained  as  to  page  121,  that 

the  reference  notes  are  to  continue  on  page  122,  covering  tables 

10  and  11,  showing  the  points  where  the  second  class  yards  exist. 

Mr.  Carter :     It  shows  where  the  rates  are  paid. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Where  second  class  rates  are  paid,  or  rates 

are  paid  for  second  class  yards. 

Mr.  Carter:  For  instance,  take  on  page  121,  the  sixth  ref- 
erence note,  Chicago  &  North  Western,  the  first  class  yards  are 
Chicago,  Milwaukee,  Council  Bluffs,  North  Fond  du  Lac,  Belvi- 
dere,  Clinton,  Des  Moines,  Sioux  City,  South  Omaha,  Boone, 
Baraboo,  Belle  Plaine,  Green  Bay,  Winona,  Escanaba  (Lower 
Yard),  Deadwood,  Janesville,  Missouri  Valley,  Cedar  Rapids 
and  Ashland. 

Now,  the  statement  is  made,  ' '  Second  class  yards :  All  other 
yards ' '.  Now,  I  don 't  know  the  names  of  the  other  yards.  They 
are  not  shown  in  the  schedule,  the  names  are  not  shown  there. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  turn  to  the  next  page,  please,  page  123, 
Table  12.  The  caption  of  Table  12  reads :  ' '  Eates  of  Wages 
Per  Hour  and  Earnings  for  Continuous  Service  of  Locomotive 
Hostlers  on  Western  Railroads."  Will  you  please  explain  this 
table  and  its  purpose. 

Mr.  Carter:     The  purpose  is  very  similar  to  that  of  the 
table  in  regard  to  switch  engines,  except  there  are  no  first  and 
second  class  yards.    You  will  notice,  however,  that  some  roads 
have  a  large  number  of  rates.    For  instance,  the  Denver  &  Rio 
Grande  has  five  different  rates  on  the  Colorado  lines  and  five 
different  rates  on  the  Denver  &  Rio  Grande  lines,  as  shown.    I 
understand  that  they  only  have  five  different  rates. 
Mr.  Phillips :     You  mean  the  Utah  lines  f 
Mr.  Carter:     The  Colorado  lines  and  the  Utah  lines.   You 
will  note  opposite  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  a  leader  line 
showing  no  rates  at  all,  and  there  is  a  footnote  to  that.    By  turn- 
ing to  page  125  for  references,  you  will  find,  note  2,  "Atchison, 
Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  (Eastern  and  Western  Lines)— no  rate  re- 


524 

ported  for  liostlcrs.  When  firemen  are  required  to  act  as  hostlers 
they  are  paid  firemen's  rates,  except  when  assigned  for  a  definite 
period,  in  wliich  case  they  shall  receive  hostlers'  wages."  Bnl 
no  place  in  the  schedule  is  it  indicated  what  the  hostlers'  wages 
are.  That  same  mil  apply  to  any  other  road  having  a  leader 
line  following,  such  as  the  Baltimore  &;  Ohio  Chicago  Terminal, 
the  Chicago  ^  Alton,  the  Chicago  &  Southern,  etc.;  but  you  mil 
find  reference  notes  to  other  tables,  ten,  eleven  and  twelve, 
giving  much  information  which  should  be  understood  while 
reading  these  tables. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  This  reference  here,  the  third  reference  note 
on  page  125,  Mr.  Carter,  reads:  ''Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe 
(Coast  Lines) — One  hour  allowed  for  meals.  If  hour  for  eating 
is  not  given,  hostlers  are  paid  25  cents  in  addition  to  regular 
pay."  Would  you  understand  they  were  paid  that  25  cents 
extra  if  they  were  not  allowed  a  full  hour  to  eat  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  would  so  understand  it  from  reading  the 
schedule.  You  must  understand,  I  liave  not  been  there  nor 
interviewed  these  men. 

Mr.  P]iillii)S :  All  of  this  information  is  taken  from  the 
schedule  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  stated  that  this  table,  as  well 
as  the  two  preceding  tables,  was  compiled  after  you  had  started 
the  other  work,  or  practically  completed  the  other  work? 

Mr.  Carter :  The  other  work  had  practically  been  com- 
pleted and  was  in  the  hands  of  the  printer.  We  then  learned 
that  the  arbitration  was  postponed  from  the  9th  to  the  30th — 

Mr.  Phillips:     Of  November? 

Mr.  Carter :  From  the  9tli  to  the  30tli  of  November,  and  we 
utilized  those  eighteen  days  in  doing  what  we  could,  and  among 
the  things  we  did  do  was  to  get  up  tables  for  switch  engineers, 
switch  firemen  and  hostlers,  and  they  are  added,  as  you  will 
note,  to  the  back  of  the  book.  There  is  only  one  table  that  was 
already  in  type,  that  we  had  corrected  to  include  smtch  engi- 
neers, smtch  firemen  and  hostlers. 

Mr.  Phillips:     ^Vliat  table  is  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  Table  4  on  page  12.  But  I  think  that  is  a 
mistake,  for  we  included  there,  hostlers  for  the  Chicago,  Bur- 
lington &:  Quincy  Railroad  on  table  4,  and  there  is  no  rate  given 


525 


for  hostlers  on  the  Chicago,  Biuliiigton  &  Quincy  Railroad  in 
the  schedule.  I  had  a  representative  visit  the  terminals  here 
to  ascertain  what  the  rate  was,  to  get  a  report  on  it.  You  will 
find  the  rate  on  pages  12  and  13,  for  Table  4.  I  do  not  think  you 
have  ever  handled  Table  4  before. 

Mr.  Phillips :  No,  I  am  afraid  we  missed  that.  We  will  go 
back  to  that  now.  ''Comparative  Rates  of  Wages  per  Hour  and 
Earnings  for  Continuous  Service  of  Locomotive  Engineers  and 
Firemen,  Employed  by  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  Rail- 
road Company,  and  Employes  in  the  Building  Trades,  in  the 
City  of  Chicago."  Before  you  attempt  to  explain  that,  Mr. 
Carter,  you  say  that  the  hostlers  and  assistant  hostlers  should 
not  be  included  there  because  of  the  fact  that  they  have  no  rate 
sho^vn  on  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy. 

Mr.  Carter:  In  order  to  explain  why  the  Chicago,  Burling- 
ton &  Quincy  rates  for  hostlers  appear  on  jjages  12  and  13,  Table 
4,  and  do  not  appear  on  page  123,  Table  12,  it  is  because  I  am 
quite  sure  there  is  no  rate  shown  in  the  schedule,  the  only  rates 
shown  in  the  schedules  are  shown  in  Table  12.  When  tliis  table 
here  was  prepared,  the  purpose-  was  to  take  men  working  out  of 
the  City  of  Chicago  and  compare  their  wages,  per  hour,  and 
their  earnings  for  continuous  service,  with  other  men  working 
in  the  same  city.  For  instance,  a  railroad  running  into  Chicago 
will  pass  a  vast  number  of  buildings  and  other  industrial  plants 
where  men  are  employed  between  here  and  the  outskirts  of  the 
city,  and  I  wanted  to  compare  their  wages  in  the  same  immediate 
locality.  The  reason  I  selected  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy 
Railroad  is  because  they  have  a  very  concise  and  brief  schedule. 
I  think  they  have  about  five  groups  of  engines,  and  it  only 
takes  a  very  few  lines  to  show  all  their  rates.  I  did  not  select 
the  Cliicago,  Burling-ton  &  Quincy  because  of  any  special 
reason.  It  was  because  I  thought  the  Chicago,  Burlington  & 
Quincy  was  typical  of  one  of  the  principal  western  railroads 
operating  out  of  the  City  of  Chicago,  it  has  large  terminals  here, 
and  I  thought,  inasmuch  as  they  have  only  about  five  or  six  rates, 
it  would  be  easier  to  use  that  road  for  comparison's  sake.  After 
the  table  was  prepared,  however,  I  found  that  I  had  no  hostlers ' 
rate  for  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy,  and  I  had  a  represen- 
tative go  and  interview  the  hostlers,  get  their  names  and  find 
out  what  they  were  earning.    Now,  understand,  the  information 


526 

that  appears  in  Table  4,  concerning  hostlers  and  assistant 
hostlers,  is  based  niion  the  information  commnnicated  to  me  by 
my  representative  whom  I  sent  ont  there  to  make  inquiry. 

Mr.  Pliillips:     And  not  taken  from  the  schedule? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  they  do  not  have  any  rate  in  the 
schedule  for  hostlers. 

Mr.  Phillips :    What  is  a  hostler,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  suppose  the  name  had  its  origin  in  the  coach- 
ing days  of  old,  long  before  we  had  railroads,  when  the  driver 
of  a  team  would  drive  up  to  an  inn  on  the  wayside,  and  a  hostler 
would  como  out  and  take  the  team,  take  care  of  it,  had  charge  of 
it  until  the  ])arty  was  ready  to  leave,  and  then  the  hostler  would 
bring  the  team  out  again.  I  think  that  is  the  basis  of  the  word 
''hostler"  in  use  todaj^  A  hostler  is  a  man  who  has  charge  of, 
and  is  responsible  for  the  locomotive  after  the  road  crew  sur- 
renders the  engine  and  before  they  take  it  again. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Would  that  apply  to  a  man  employed  to  take 
care  of  switch  engines  when  they  were  turned  in  at  the  end 
of  a  day's  work? 

Mr.  Carter:  Any  man  who  handles  an  engine,  who  is  re- 
sponsible for  the  handling  of  that  engine,  has  charge  of  that 
engine  while  it  is  not  operated  in  regular  service,  is  a  hostler. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  these  are  the  Employes  covered  hj  the 
rates  quoted  from  the  schedules,  as  they  appear  in  Table  12? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But  for  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy,  in 
this  comparison  made  here,  the  rates  of  wages  for  hostlers,  per 
hour  or  by  the  day,  were  secured  by  direct  information  from 
the  employes  in  the  service  of  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy 
Railroad? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  you  the  information  available  if  any- 
body desires  to  make  a  check  on  that? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  it.  I  have  a  report  of  an  employe  of  the 
Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  Railroad,  working  right  out  of 
his  town.  I  have  his  report  and  shall  be  glad  to  produce  it  at 
any  time. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  what  was  the  particular  purpose  of 
Table  4,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:     The  particular  purpose  of  Table  4  was  to 


527 

compare  the  hours  of  service  per  day  that  employes  in  all  of 
these  different  trades  here  are  required  to  work.  You  will  note 
that  I  have  selected  the  buildings  trades  in  the  city  of  Chicago 
and  compared  them  with  locomotive  engineers  and  firemen  in 
freight  service,  locomotive  engineers  and  firemen  in  switching 
service,  and  hostlers  and  assistant  hostlers  on  the  Chicago,  Bur- 
lington &  Quincy  Eoad;  and,  as  I  explained,  the  only  reason 
that  I  had  to  get  that  information  was,  after  I  liad  arranged  the 
table  and  attempted  to  insert  the  hostlers'  rate,  1  found  there  was 
no  hostlers'  rate  in  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  schedule. 

Mr.  Phillips:  What  do  you  find  by  a  comparison  of  these 
different  classes  of  employes,  on  an  hourly  basis,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:  All  of  the  building  trades  in  the  city  of  Chi- 
cago have  their  hours  of  labor  limited  to  eight  hours.  They 
cannot  be  required  to  work  longer  than  eight  hours  without 
paying  them  a  higher  rate  than  is  received  for  the  regular  hours. 
So  far  as  locomotive  engineers  and  firemen  in  freight  service 
are  concerned,  or  in  switching  service,  they  have  no  limit  except 
the  limit  of  sixteen  hours,  fixed  by  the  Federal  Hours  of  Service 
Law.  They  may  work  six  hours,  eight  hours,  ten  hours,  twelve 
hours,  fourteen  hours  and  sixteen  hours,  legally,  and  not  violate 
any  schedule,  nor  violate  any  law.  Sometimes,  without  violating 
the  law,  they  work  tAventy  hours,  or  twenty-four  hours,  when  it 
can  be  shown  that  some  accident  has  happened  which  does  not 
come  within  the  law,  or,  rather,  an  accident  has  hapyjened  that 
makes  it  permissible  for  engineers  and  firemen  to  remain  on 
service  longer  than  sixteen  hours. 

Mr.  Phillips:  When  you  speak  of  the  law,  you  refer  to 
the  Federal  Hours  of  Service  Law? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  United  States  Federal  Law,  Hours  of 
Service  Law.  Canada  hasn't  any  law  upon  the  subject.  They 
are  agitating  a  fourteen-hour  law  now,  I  believe,  in  Canada. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Your  reference  to  the  law  has  no  reference 
to  the  law  of  humanity  1 

Mr.  Carter:     That  is  not  considered  in  railroading. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  want  to  get  at  just  what  you  mean  by  this 
unlimited  service  of  locomotive  engineers  and  also  locomotive 
firemen,  as  shown  further  down  the  line,  in  different  groupings. 
You  say  they  have  no  limit  under  the  law.  These  are  freight 
employes,  engineers  and  firemen. 


528 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  they  have  a  limit  of  sixteen  hours. 
Mr.   Phillips:     They   are   in   the   freight   service   or   yard 
service  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     They  have  a  Ihnit  of  sixteen  hours. 
Mr.  Phillips:     Aren't  they  generally  supposed  to  be  work- 
ing on  a  ten-hour  day? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think,  by  referring  to  the  table,  you  will  find 
that  usually  it  is  a  ten  hour  day,  but  probably  there  will  be  two 
or  three  deviations  from  that  in  Tables  10  and  11,  giving  smtch 
engine  wages.  T  think  possibly  in  the  footnotes  there  may  be 
some  deviation;  but  ten  hours  is  a  day's  work,  ordinarily,  and 
so  considered. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Where  they  have  a  ten  hour  day,  just  for 
comparison  with  these  trades  that  evidently  have  an  eight  hour 
day,  would  you  understand  that  the  engineer  or  fireman  would 
just  work  ten  hours  and  receive  pay  for  ten  hours,  or,  is  it 
possible  they  may  work  longer  than  ten  hours  and  receive  no 
pay,  except  for  the  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  with  two  switch 
engine  crews  working  continuously,  except  where  the  schedule 
provides  for  thirty  minutes,  or  an  hour's  relief  for  eating.  Now, 
I  think  there  are  roads,  I  am  quite  sure  but  I  won't  attempt  to 
say  what  roads  they  are,  that  perhaps  have  a  time  for  cleaning 
the  fires  of  the  switch  engines,  putting  coal  and  water  on,  by 
hostlers,  and  if  that  is  the  case,  I  can  see  where  there  is  a  lapse 
of  time  between  the  two  crews '  work  unless  it  is  that  crews  are 
otherwise  engaged  at  the  same  time  that  the  hostlers  are  being 
worked  with  the  engine. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  give  a  number  of  those  here  in  the  first 
column  of  this  table,  the  first  column  under  ''Hours  per  day," — 
the  number  of  trades  evidently  working  eight  hours  per  day, 
])lasterers,  plumbers,  carpenters,  etc. 

Mr.  Carter:     And  hod  carriers. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  understand  that  they  work  eight  hours 
per  day? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Uusually  from  eight  to  five,  with  an  hour 
off  for  noon,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :     If  they  were  required  to  come  down  at  7 :30 


529 

and  were  not  relieved  until  5 :30  in  the  evening,  would  they  get 
pay  for  more  than  eight  hours? 

Mr.  Carter:     ^^^lat  is  your  question — say  it  again? 

Mr.  Phillips:  From  7:30  A.  M.  to  5:30  P.  M.,  a  total  of 
nine  hours. 

Mr.  Carter:     That  would  be  nine  hours. 

Mr.  Phillips:     For  what  would  they  receive  pay? 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  I  think  some  roads  pay  continuous 
time. 

Mr.  Phillips :     I  am  speaking  of  these  other  trades,  now. 

Mr.  Carter:  They  would  not  receive  any  pay  for  the  time 
they  are  eating  their  meals,  one  hour. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is  not  the  point  I  wished  to  have  made 
clear,  if  you  can  make  it  clear  for  us — if  a  hod  carrier  or  a  brick 
layer,  or  a  carpenter,  or  any  of  these  other  trades  you-  have 
enumerated,  are  worked  thirty  minutes  before  the  eight  hour 
period  begins,  getting  ready,  we  will  say,  and  then  worked  thirty 
minutes  after,  putting  his  tools  away,  or  something  of  that  kind, 
or  cleaning  up  the  debris  of  the  day's  work,  would  he  receive 
any  additional  compensation  for  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  quite  sure  he  would  receive  tlie  rate 
fixed  for  overtime. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  if  these  engineers  and  firemen,  work- 
ing ten  hours  a  day,  had  no  specific  rule  granting  pay  for  pre- 
paratory time,  could  the  railroads  require  their  engineers  and 
firemen  to  come  do^vn,  thirty  minutes,  or  some  period  of  time 
before  their  day  began,  and  also  to  remain  on  duty  after  their 
day  ended,  without  compensating  them  for  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     Do  you  refer  to  switching  service? 

Mr.  Phillips :     Either  switching  service  or  road  service. 

Mr.  Carter :  They  have  not  a  regular  ten  hour  day  in  road 
service. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  understood  you  to  say  that  ten  hours  con- 
stitutes a  day. 

Mr.  Carter :  Only  as  fixing  a  basis  of  pay.  When  you  work 
ten  hours  they  say  you  are  entitled  to  this  pay,  but  they  do  not 
say  you  are  entitled  to  quit. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Let  us  confine  it  to  the  switching  service. 
Then,  if  these  men  engaged  in  the  switching  service  had  to  come 
down  thirty  minutes  before  their  work  began,  and  then  had  to 


530 

remain  thirty  niiinites  after  their  day  was  over,  would  they  re- 
ceive pay  for  it  on  all  railroads  f 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  quite  sure  they  would  not,  unless  it  was 
specifically  provided  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  IMiillij^s :  Let  us  make  a  few  comparisons.  I  do  not 
want  to  drag  this  out  too  long.  If  a  plasterer  works  eight 
hours  on  a  week  day,  what  will  be  his  earnings? 

Mr.  Carter:     Six  dollars. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  take  a  locomotive  engineer  in  the  first 
group  there.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  those  were  the  highest 
paid  engines,  the  ones  coming  first? 

Mr.  Carter:     Group  6. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Suppose  an  engineer  works  eight  hours  on 
that  64  cents  an  hour  engine,  what  w^ould  he  receive? 

Mr.  Carter:  He  would  get  $6.40,  just  the  same  as  if  he 
worked  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  a  plasterer  worked  ten  hours  on  a  week 
day,  what  would  he  get? 

Mr.  Carter:     He  would  get  $9. 

Mr,  Phillips:  And  how  much  would  the  engineer  get  for 
working  ten  hours? 

Mr.  Carter :     He  would  get  the  same  $6.40. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  if  the  plasterer  worked  twelve  hours 
on  a  week  day,  wiiat  would  he  get? 

Mr.  Carter :     He  would  get  $12. 

Mr.  Phillips:     "What  would  the  engineer  get? 

Mr.  Carter :     He  w^ould  get  $7.68. 

Mr.  Phillips:     If  the  plasterer  worked  fourteen  hours? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  a  plasterer,  an  inside  wireman,  plumber, 
gasfitter,  or  a  steamfitter,  those  four  anyhow,  would  get  $15  if 
they  worked  continuously  fourteen  hours. 

A  locomotive  engineer  on  the  biggest  engine  would  get 
$8.96. 

If  a  man  employed  in  any  one  of  the  four  top  trades  should 
work  sixteen  hours  on  a  week  day  he  would  get  $18,  while  the 
engineer  on  the  biggest  engine  would  get  $10.24. 

The  engineer  on  the  smallest  engine  would  get  $7.63,  and 
a  switch  engineer  would  get  $6.80,  for  sixteen  hours '  continuous 
work. 

Going  down  to  the  bottom,  you  will  see  that  the  firemen  and 


531 

switch  engine  firemen  and  liostlers  are  hardly  given  enough  to 
be  in  the  list  at  all. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  spoke  of  firemen.  A  fireman  working 
on  a  switch  engine  in  Chicago,  working  sixteen  hours,  would 
receive  $4,  would  he  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     $4. 

Mr.  Pliillii)s:  A  while  ago  we  compared  liiiii  witli  the  liod 
carrier.  Wliat  would  the  hod  carrier  get  if  he  worked  sixteen 
hours  on  a  week  day! 

Mr.  Carter:     $9.60. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Suppose  any  of  these  crafts  or  trades  worked 
sixteen  hours  on  a  Sunday  or  holiday — I  mean  those  you  first 
mentioned — what  would  they  get? 

Mr.  Carter :  They  would  get  $24  for  working  sixteen  hours 
on  a  Sunday  or  holiday. 

Mr.  Phillips :  AVould  there  be  any  difference  in  the  pay 
of  the  engineer  1 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Or  the  fireman? 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Just  the  same  as  on  a  week  day,  and  just  the 
same  at  night  as  for  day  work? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Just  the  same  for  overtime  as  for  straight 
time? 

Mr.  Carter:     No  difference. 

Mr.  Phillips:  That  apparently  does  not  ap]ily  witli  any  of 
the  other  trades? 

Mr.  Carter:  All  the  other  trades  get  excessive  rates,  or  I 
mean  rates  in  excess  of  the  regular  rates,  for  overtime. 

I  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  this  table  was  arranged 
in  the  order  of  the  amount  of  earnings  for  a  ten  hour  week  day. 
If  you  will  look  at  the  ten  hour  heading,  week  days,  and  note  the 
amount  received,  you  will  find  that  it  progresses  downwardly, 
from  plasterers  to  assistant  hostlers  and  switcli  engine  firemon. 

For  instance,  it  starts  in  with  plasterers  $9,  inside  wiremen 
$9,  plumbers  and  gasfitters  $9,  steamfitters  $9,  bricklayers  $8.25, 
and  then  goes  on  down.  Then  after  sheetmetal  workers  it  strikes 
the  engineer,  on  the  biggest  engine  on  the  **Q"  road,  I  supi)ose. 
Anyhow,  it  is  group  6,  the  highest  rate,  and  he  would  ixoi  $n.40. 


532 

And,  you  see  as  the  groups  change,  the  first  four  groups  bring 
the  wage  down  to  $5.40.  Eight  between  the  first  four  and  the 
last  three  groups  of  engineers,  as  shown  there,  appear  the  hod 
carriers.  The  hod  carrier  comes  in  midway  in  the  group  of  en- 
gineers. The  hod  carrier  gets  $5.28.  Then  comes  three  more 
groups  for  locomotive  engineers,  bringing  it  down  to  $4.80. 

The  switch  engineer  in  Chicago  gets  $4.25  for  ten  liours' 
work. 

Now,  we  come  to  locomotive  firemen.  Commencing  with 
the  biggest  engine,  the  locomotive  fireman  gets  $4,  in  group  6, 
which  I  understand  includes  the  Mallets ;  then  $3.75,  then  $3.60, 
then  $3.30,  then  $3.15,  then  $2.95. 

Now,  we  come  to  the  switch  engine  fireman.  He  gets  $2.50, 
or  25  cents  an  hour.  The  hostler — and  this  is  the  C,  B.  &  Q. 
hostler — gets  $2.50  a  day. 

Mr.  Stone:     $2  a  day. 

Mr.  Carter:  He  works  twelve  liours  and  gets  $2.50  for  it. 
No,  I  beg  your  pardon,  he  gets  $3  for  it  as  you  will  notice  over 
in  the  twelve  hour  column.  Now,  I  think  that  is  an  error. 
Although  the  schedule  don't  say  so,  there  is  nothing,  no  contract 
on  the  part  of  the  railroads  to  pay  a  hostler  anything  less  than 
a  full  day's  pay,  and  it  is  possible  that  if  this  hostler  on  the 
C,  B.  &  Q.  only  worked  eight  hours  he  would  receive  eight- 
tenths  of  a  day.  If  he  does  receive  $3,  it  is  because  the  road 
wants  to  pay  him  that,  and  it  is  not  because  of  any  agreement 
to  that  effect  that  I  can  find.  It  may  be  there  is  a  private  agree- 
ment between  that  hostler  and  the  company. 

Now,  the  assistant  hostler  out  here  on  the  C,  B.  &  Q.  gets  21 
cents  an  hour.  If  he  worked  ten  hours  he  would  get  $2.10.  I 
don't  know  who  that  assistant  hostler  is,  Init  I  have  alwavs  con- 
sidered  that  an  assistant  hostler  is  a  man  who  actually  hostles 
engines  and  assists  the  head  hostler.  It  is  possible  that  he 
might  be  a  fire  knocker,  I  don't  know;  but  if  he  is,  and  does  not 
handle  engines,  he  is  not  a  hostler;  he  is  misnamed.  If  he 
handles  engines  he  is  a  hostler  and  if  he  is  working  under  a 
head  hostler  he  is  an  assistant  hostler. 

Mr.  Phillips :  From  this  table,  Mr.  Carter,  it  would  appear 
that  all  of  these  different  trades  you  have  listed,  and  which,  I 
understand,  are  taken  from  the  tables  that  appear  elsewhere 


533 

in  this  exhibit,  draw  time  and  a  half  or  double  time  for  overtime ; 
all  except  engineers,  firemen  and  hostlers? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  A  while  ago,  yon  made  a  statement  some- 
thing to  the  effect  that  jow  wished  to  get  these  people  working 
in  the  building  trades  or  in  other  industries  in  the  same  territory 
that  these  yard  men  worked — 

Mr.  Carter :  Right  outside  of  the  track  or  the  yard,  as  these 
men  work  in  the  yards.    Right  beside  the  track. 

Mr.-  Phillips :  Now,  let  us  take  an  industry  beside  the  track 
and  the  car  yard  of  a  railroad  company  outside  the  fence.  Those 
employes  working  there  within  sight  of  each  other,  within  calling 
distance  of  each  other  day  after  day ;  do  you  know  of  any  reason 
why  those  yard  men  should  not  expect  to  receive  remuneration 
for  their  additional  service  the  same  as  the  employes  working 
in  the  building  trades  and  other  industries  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  If  you  will  divide  that  question,  I  will  answer 
it.  I  know  that  there  is  no  reason  why  they  should  not  expect, 
but  there  are  good  reasons  why  they  do  not  receive  it. 

Mr.  Phillips :  What  are  the  reasons  why  they  do  not  receive 
it? 

Mr.  Carter:    We  have  not  been  able  to  get  it  yet. 

Mr,  Phillips :  That  might  be  a  debatable  question,  whether 
that  is  a  reason  or  not.  If  I  had  asked  you  if  they  do  receive  it 
and  you  had  answered  in  the  negative,  I  could  understand  that 
they  were  not  getting  the  money,  but  I  could  not  take  that  as  a 
reason  why  they  were  not  getting  it. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Do  you  believe  that  men  working  under  such- 
conditions,  in  a  railroad  yard,  or  on  a  railroad  between  stations, 
should  have  the  same  compensation  for  overtime,  comjnited  in 
the  same  manner  that  it  is  computed  for  these  building  employes, 
and  the  employes  in  other  industries  listed  in  your  exhibit? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  would  say  that  for  the  same  reason  that  ex- 
cessively high  rates  are  paid  for  overtime  in  tlie  other  trades 
they  should  certainly  be  paid  in  yard  service  to  engineers  and 
firemen,  and  that  purpose  is  to  prevent  the  use  of  these  men 
longer  than  a  certain  number  of  hours. 

Our  proposition  only  asks  that  their  day  be  ten  hours,  while 
these  other  people  all  have  an  eight  hour  day.    Without  taking 


534 

into  eonsidoration  the  difference  in  the  number  of  hours  they 
are  re(iuirod  to  work  before  overtime  be^^ins,  I  have  never  been 
able  to  understand  why  yard  engineers  and  firemen  should  not 
be  worked  an  eight  hour  day  and  paid  as  liberally  as  employes 
in  other  industries  are  paid  for  an  eight  hour  day,  and  receive 
excessively  high  rates  of  compensation  for  overtime  when  they 
were  compelled  to  work  overtime. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But  still  you  only  ask  for  a  ten  hour  day, 
do  you  notf 

Mr.  Carter:  I  rather  think  that  the  men  want  an  eight 
hour  day,  but,  as  in  other  matters,  they  thought  if  they  could 
standardize  on  a  ten  hour  day  they  would  do  well. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe,  in  your  proposition,  you  ask  for 
only  time  and  a  half  for  overtime? 

Mr.  Carter:     Time  and  a  half  for  overtime  after  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  practically  all  of  these  leading  trades 
and  industries  listed  in  your  exhibit  show^  double  time  after 
eight  hours? 

Mr.  Carter:  Some  of  them  only  time  and  a  half.  The 
bricklayers  only  get  time  and  a  half  if  they  work  over  eight 
hours,  except  on  Sundays  and  holidays.  Carpenters  and  a  great 
many  other  trades,  of  course,  get  double  time. 

You,  of  course,  understand  these  high  rates  of  overtime  are 
punitive  in  their  nature.  The  men  do  not  want  to  work  over  a 
full  day's  work,  and  in  order  to  prevent  the  possibility  of  their 
being  compelled  to  work  more  than  a  regular  day's  work,  in- 
stead of  being  insubordinate  and  saying  "We  won't  work," 
they  say  "You  will  pay  me  time  and  a  half  or  double  time  if  I 
do  work." 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr,  Carter,  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to 
what  appears  to  me  to  be  an  error  in  figuring  these  rates  here. 
For  the  hod  carriers,  under  the  twelve  hour  caption,  week  days, 
ap])ears  a  I'ate  of  6.72.  Now,  I  note  the  same  rate  of  6.72  for 
hod  carriers  under  fourteen  hours;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  is  an  error.  I  had  not  noticed  that. 
That  should  be  increased.  They  would  make  more  than  that  if 
they  worked  fourteen  hours.  A  hod  carrier  would  not  work; 
fourteen  hours  for  $6.72. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  wlietlier  hod  carriers  get  double 
time  or  time  and  a  half  for  overtime,  without  looking  it  up? 


535 

Mr.  Carter:     In  Chicago,  do  j^ou  mean? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes. 

Mr.  Carter:  Hod  carriers  and  building  laborers  have  a  44 
hour  week,  from  8  A.  M.  to  5  P.  M.,  Mondays  to  Fridaj^s;  and 
8  A.  M.  to  12  noon  Saturdays,  and  they  get  time  and  a  half  for 
overtime,  except  on  Sundays  and  holidays,  when  they  get  double 
time. 

Mr.  Phillips:  This  is  figuring  a  week,  and  if  I  have  figured 
it  right  here  that  should  be  $8.16. 

Mr.  Carter :  That  is  an  error  there.  That  has  been  checked 
over  and  over  again;  it  would  remain  for  you  to  find  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:     That  $6.72  should  be  $8.16,  should  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :     If  you  have  computed  it,  I  w^ill  say  yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  do  not  guarantee  my  figures  but  I  see  there 
is  a  discrepancy  there.  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  I  wish  you  would  turn 
back  to  page  1  just  a  moment,  the  first  page  of  this  exhibit. 
Under  the  subject,  "Piece-Work  and  Seniority,"  near  the  bot- 
tom of  the  page  I  note  you  say:  "Eates  of  wages  of  Locomotive 
Engineers  and  Firemen  in  road  service,  being  usually  fixed  upon 
a  'piece-work  basis,'  at  a  certain  rate  'per  hundred  miles,'  it 
follows,  that  the  higher  the  average  speed  of  a  train  between 
terminals  the  greater  the  earnings  in  a  given  time." 

WHiat  do  you  mean  by  that? 

Mr.  Carter :  So  long  as  the  speed  of  the  train  is  equal  to, 
or  exceeds,  ten  miles  per  hour,  the  wages  are  fixed  on  the  piece- 
work system,  or  so  much  per  hundred  miles.  Now,  if  it  took 
ten  hours  to  go  a  hundred  miles,  the  mileage  rate  and  the  daily 
rate  would  be  the  same ;  but,  as  the  speed  of  the  train  increases, 
the  earnings  for  the  trip, — that  is,  the  earnings  for  a  given 
time  would  be  increased. 

For  instance,  going  from  A  to  B,  100  miles  in  ten  hours, 
they  would  get  100  miles  pay  which  is  equal  to  ten  hours  work. 
But,  if  they  went  in  eight  hours  they  would  get  100  miles  pay 
in  the  same  manner  as  if  they  had  worked  ten  hours.  It  is 
purely  a  piece-work  system.  They  make  miles,  and  that  is  the 
expression  they  are  using,  ''making  miles."  That  is  their 
product,  they  say. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  roads  were  operated  on  a  basis  so 
that  men  could  make  miles,  in  other  words,  turn  out  piece-work 


536 

rajndly,  w(iul(]  tlioy  make  more  than  if  they  operate  on  an  hourly 
basis! 

Mr.  Carter:  As  the  speed  of  the  train  increases  so  does 
the  earnings  per  car  when  the  wages  are  fixed  on  the  mileage 
basis. 

I  would  like  to  explain  that.  The  wages  are  fixed  per 
hundred  miles  of  the  actual  miles  made,  and  as  I  stated  a  while 
ago,  if  an  engine  crew  was  going  a  hundred  miles  in  eight  hours, 
or,  say  seven  hours,  their  rate  per  hour  would  increase  in  the 
same  ratio  or  proportion;  but,  in  making  that  statement,  I  do 
not  take  into  consideration  that  the  crew  that  required  seven 
hours  to  make  100  miles,  were  possibly  called  two  hours  before 
they  started  to  make  this  100  miles;  or  they  may  have  been 
delayed  at  the  end  of  the  trip,  and,  it  is  possible,  that,  while  th^ 
records  of  the  company  would  show  that  they  had  been  on  duty 
only  seven  hours,  the  fact  of  the  matter  is  they  might  have  been 
on  dutv  ten  hours,  if  thev  were  called  two  hours  before  the 
leaving  time  of  the  train. 

It  is  difficult  to  determine  when  a  man  does  go  on  duty.  He 
may  be  asleep  after  eiglit  hours  rest,  at  2  o  'clock  in  the  morning. 
The  caller  will  waken  him,  or  the  telephone  may  waken  him. 
His  train,  we  will  say,  leaves  two  hours  later.  Now,  it  takes 
him  a  certain  time  to  put  his  clothes  on,  get  something  to  eat, 
and  get  to  the  place  where  he  will  find  his  engine.  Possibly  that 
is  his  own  time,  but  that  is  something  that  has  to  be  done. 
Before  a  man  can  go  out  on  the  road  he  has  got  to  get  something 
to  eat  and  to  put  his  clothes  on.  It  is  difficult  therefore  to  say 
just  how  much  time  after  a  man  is  called  is  really  time  con- 
tributed by  himself  or  required  by  the  company;  but  in  cal- 
culating and  estimating  the  earnings  of  firemen  on  the  mileage 
basis,  that  is,  when  their  speed  exceeds  ten  miles  an  hour,  it  is 
difficult  to  saj^  how  long  a  man  does  work  for  his  pay. 

It  may  show  in  passenger  service,  for  instance,  that  he  was 
only  two  hours  going  a  hundred  miles,  or  an  average  of  fifty 
miles  an  hour,  while  the  engine  was  in  motion  between  ter- 
minals. It  is  possible,  however,  that  he  came  down  two  hours 
before  that  engine  left  and  was  working  around  his  engine;  or 
he  may  have  been  taking  that  engine  from  a  distant  round- 
house down   to  the  point  where  the  train  leaves.     The  des- 


537 

patcher's  sheet  would  not  show  that,  and  any  wages  based  upon 
that  I  am  afraid  Avould  be  misleading. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  if  the  schedules  did  not  specifically 
provide  compensation  for  this  preparatory  time,  even  though 
that  work  might  be  done,  no  pay  would  be  received  for  it  by 
engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  there  was  what  we  have  been  pleased  to 
term  an  arbitrary  allowance,  it  would  be  paid  as  an  arbitrary 
and  not  under  the  mileage.  He  would  get  so  much  for  making 
that  hundred  miles,  and  maybe  he  would  be  paid  for  the  time  he 
put  in  before  he  began  to  make  that  one  hundred  miles  and 
maybe  he  would  not. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Under  some  schedules  he  would  and  under 
some  would  not? 

Mr.  Carter :     That  is  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:  When  a  hundred  miles  is  made  in  a  com- 
paratively short  time,  I  understand  you  to  say,  that,  as  piece- 
workers, engineers  and  firemen  earn  money  more  rapidly  than 
if  they  were  making  just  ten  miles  an  hour,  or  say  working  on 
an  hourly  basis? 

Mr.  Carter:  Like  any  other  piece-work,  if  you  got  so 
much  money  for  making  brick  or  mining  coal;  and  in  mining 
coal  the  miners  have  an  eight  hour  day  and  yet  they  are  paid 
on  a  piece-work  system  of  so  much  per  ton.  Two  miners  may 
be  working  in  the  same  pit,  both  working  eight  hours,  and  yet 
the  man  who  mines  the  most  coal,  knocks  down  the  most  coal 
and  loads  it  and  sends  it  out,  gets  a  higher  rate  than  the  man  in 
the  next  breast  who  knocks  down  a  less  number  of  tons  and 
sends  it  out  in  the  same  eight  hours. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  this  engineer  and  fireman  got  the  train 
over  the  road  in  less  time  and,  as  you  say,  would  earn  money 
more  rapidly  than  on  an  hourly  basis,  would  they  also  be  earn- 
ing money  more  rapidly  for  the  company,  in  your  judgment? 

Mr.  Carter :  Oh,  I  suppose  so.  They  would  be  performing 
the  same  service  for  the  company  in  say  seven  hours,  that  they 
might  next  day  require  ten  hours  to  perform,  or  fourteen  hours 
to  perform. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  point  is  this,  Mr.  Carter,  if  you  can  en- 
lighten us  on  it :    Would  the  company  receive  the  same  revenue 


538 

for  the  train  if  it  got  over  the  road  in  seven  hours  as  if  it 
moved  over  the  road  in  fourteen  hours ! 

Mr.  Carter:  1  am  not  a  traffic  man,  but  I  understand  Red 
Ball  Freight  brings  a  higher  return  than  coal  trains. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  spoke  of  the  preparatory  time.  I  under- 
stood you  to  say,  that  in  some  cases  the  engineers  and  firemen 
were  paid,  and  in  some  cases  they  were  not,  for  the  time  spent  in 
getting  their  engine  ready  to  leave  and  move  out! 

Mr.  Carter:  I  make  that  statement  without  being  able  to 
call  attention  to  any  scheduk'.  If  that  is  a  material  point,  I 
would  suggest  that  if  you  will  turn  to  Exhibit  1  or  2,  you  will 
find  exactly,  under  the  name  of  each  road,  just  what  they  pay 
for  preparatory  time  or  for  terminal  time. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  don 't  know  what  regulations  the  Inter- 
state Commerce  Commission  have  instituted,  governing  the 
time  on  duty,  that  shall  apply  to  an  engineer  and  fireman,  do 
you? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  am  going  to  make  a  statement  that  I  think 
is  true.    If  I  am  wrong,  I  hope  to  be  corrected. 

The  Federal  Hours  of  Service  Law  requires  an  engine  crew 
to  be  off  duty,  we  will  say,  eight  hours.  It  does  not  say  for  rest ; 
it  says  off  duty.  For  instance,  a  train  may  come  into  the  yard  at 
one  o'clock  in  the  morning  and  the  engineer  and  fireman  be 
relieved  from  duty  at  one  o'clock.  Another  train  may  leave 
at  nine  o'clock,  we  will  say,  eight  hours  later.  The  same  crew 
may  be  required  to  leave  on  that  train,  and  not  violate  the  law, 
because  the  law  says  eight  hours  off  duty. 

Now,  in  practice,  and  in  fact,  by  the  time  that  engineer 
and  fireman  wash  up,  go  and  get  something  to  eat,  go  home,  get 
to  bed,  an  hour  or  more  has  gone.  Then,  the  caller  will  prob- 
ably come  around  an  hour  or  an  hour  and  a  half  before  nine 
o  'clock,  to  get  them  up  to  get  their  clothes  on  and  get  something 
to  eat,  so  when  the  government  says  you  must  give  this  engi- 
neer and  fireman  eight  hours  off  duty,  they  don't  say  that  you 
must  give  them  ten  minutes  rest.  If  he  is  off  duty  on  the  road 
he  has  got  to  find  the  rest,  if  he  can. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  the  government  consider  the  time  off 
duty,  the  time  between  the  ending  of  responsibility  and  the  sub- 
sequent assumption  of  responsibility? 


539 

Mr.  Carter :  It  does  not  say  that.  The  tinie  between  being 
relieved  from  duty  and  again  required  to  go  on  duty. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  these  men  were  required  to  report  thirty 
minutes  before  leaving  time,  receive  no  pay  for  it,  and  their 
time  began  thirty  minutes  after  being  required  to  report,  when, 
under  the  government  regulations,  would  their  hours  on  duty 
begin  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  am  quite  sure  that  when  they  are  required  to 
report  for  duty  is  the  time,  I  do  not  think  it  is  the  leaving  time 
of  the  train. 

For  instance,  suppose  an  engine  crew  was  called  to  go  out 
at  eight  o'clock,  and  they  were  there,  and  the  train  was  de- 
layed and  did  not  go  out  until  noon.  I  am  quite  sure  all  the 
time  they  were  lajdng  there  they  would  be  considered  as  being 
on  duty  under  the  Hours  of  Service  Law. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Suppose  a  crew  was  called  to  depart  on  a 
train  at  9  A.  M.,  and  under  the  rules  of  the  company  they  were 
required  to  report  for  duty  at  8 :30  A.  M.,  no  compensation  being 
provided  by  the  schedule,  would  you  understand  that  their  time 
on  duty  began  at  8 :30  A.  M.  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  do  not  know  whether  there  has  been  a  court 
decision  on  that  point  or  not,  and  not  being  a  judicial  mind,  I 
am  not  able  to  say,  but  it  seems  to  me  that  "relieved  from  duty'* 
means  relieved  from  duty,  and  that  ' '  resuming  duty ' '  means  re- 
suming dutj'.  I  will  have  to  confess  I  do  not  know,  and  I  can- 
not answer  that  question.  Most  of  these  matters,  you  know, 
have  been  disputed,  and  have  found  their  way  into  the  courts, 
and  the  courts  have  decided  them. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  on  the  next  page,  page  2,  about  the 
middle  of  the  page,  or  the  third  paragraph  from  the  top  you 
say: 

''When  the  speed  of  a  train  falls  below  10  miles  per  hour  on 
10-hour  railroads,  the  basis  of  Engineers'  and  Firemen's  wages 
changes  from  'piece  work'  to  the  'hourly'  basis;  thus,  if  it  re- 
quires 16  hours  to  pull  a  train  125  miles,  the  miles  run  are  dis- 
regarded and  the  Engineer  and  firemen  are  paid  for  sixteen 
hours  work.  The  rate  per  hour  for  overtime  is  usually  the  rate 
for  10  miles,  that  is,  no  excess  or  'punitive'  rate  is  payable  as  in 
other  industries." 

What  was  your  purpose  in  making  that  statement? 


540 

Mr.  Carter:  To  distinguish  between  overtime  as  applied  to 
engineers  and  firemen,  and  overtime  as  applied  to  employes  in 
other  industries.  Overtime  in  nearly  every  industry  except  the 
railroad  industry  carries  with  it  the  suggestion  that  there  is  a 
higher  rate  for  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  overtime  with  engineers  and  firemen 
simply  means  that  the  time  has  been  extended,  and  that  they 
are  going  on  at  the  same  rate.    Is  that  a  correct  understanding? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  shall  I  read  that  next  paragraph?  I 
think  it  will  throw  some  light  on  the  subject. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  it  is  explanatory,  I  shall  be  glad  to  have 
you  read  it. 

Mr.  Carter:  (Reading)  ''As  in  all  industries  where  rates 
of  wages  are  based  upon  the  'piece  work'  system  a  compara- 
tively few  Locomotive  Enginemen  earn  high  wages,  and  the  high 
wages  of  these  few  are  accepted  by  the  public  as  typical  of  the 
earnings  of  all.  Because  of  this  misunderstanding  of  the  real 
earning  power  of  all  railroad  emploj^es  under  their  'piece  work' 
system,  great  injustice  has  been  suifered  by  its  victims.  With 
regard  to  the  high  earnings  possible  under  the  present  system 
of  compensating  engineers  and  firemen,  no  thought  is  given  by 
the  uninformed  to  the  ambitious,  if  not  selfish  struggle  of  these 
employes  to  'make  miles'  while  the  opportunity  is  presented  to 
add  to  earnings.  Thus,  an  engineer  or  fireman  may  work  20 
hours  continuously  and  thereby  earn  two  days'  pay  in  one  day, 
with  the  knowledge  that  he  may  earn  nothing  the  next  day.  As 
with  days  so  mth  months ;  an  engineer  or  fireman  may  earn  in 
one  busy  month  twice  as  much  as  in  a  dull  month.  Many  fire- 
men with  memories  of  a  few  months  of  high  earnings  often  find 
themselves  with  no  work  at  all,  no  income,  and  their  average 
earnings  for  all  months  not  sufficient  to  keep  their  family  from 
hunger  and  want." 

I  will  not  read  any  further. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  attribute  this  to  the  piecework 
system? 

Mr.  Charter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  seniority? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  attribute  it  to  the  peculiarity  of  railroad 
employment.  A  man  may  double  the  road  today  and  he  may 
not  go  over  the  road  at  all  tomorrow.    In  one  busy  month  he 


541 

may  show  excessively  high  earnings.  In  another  dull  month 
he  may  show  no  earnings  at  all.  For  instance,  an  engineer  may 
be  hired,  and  almost  from  the  beginning  he  may  show  high 
wages  on  this  piecework  system.  He  may  make  a  large  number 
of  miles.  He  may  make  a  large  number  of  hours,  but  when  that 
rush  of  business  is  over,  what  they  call  "cutting  the  list"  takes 
place,  and  that  man  may  find  himself  without  a  penny's  earnings 
for  six  mouths. 

The  same  would  apply  to  a  fireman  on  the  foot  of  the  list. 
He  might  go  without  anything  to  eat,  or  without  anything  to 
earn  it. 

The  result  is  that  when  men  do  have  the  opportunity  to 
work,  they  want  to  do  it  all.  They  want  to  do  two  men's  work 
and  get  two  men's  Avages,  and  they  do.  Their  purpose  is  to  work 
every  minute  and  make  every  mile  they  can,  because  they  do  not 
know  what  is  going  to  happen  next  month. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Is  that  an  inevitable  incident  to  the  employ- 
ment? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  so. 

Mr.  Nagel:  But  3'ou  think  it  grows  out  of  the  character 
of  the  business,  and  not  out  of  the  management? 

Mr.  Carter:     It  grows  out  of  the  character  of  the  business. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  fluctuations  from  season  to  season,  and 
the  rush  periods  that  occur  from  time  to  time  on  different  rail- 
roads ? 

Mr,  Caiier:  There  is  no  class  of  labor  of  which  I  have  any 
knowledge,  whose  opportunities  to  earn  money  are  so  precarious 
as  those  of  the  locomotive  fireman,  for  many  years  of  his  expe- 
rience. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  read  the  statement  here  that  a  compara- 
tively few  locomotive  engineers  and  firemen  earn  high  wages 
under  this  piecework  system.  Are  we  to  understand,  then,  that 
there  are  a  great  number,  or  quite  a  considerable  proportion  who 
have  an  up"  and  down  existence,  that  they  earn  a  big  month  and 
then  make  no  month  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  if  you  will  take  the  average  man,  from 
the  time  he  enters  the  service  as  a  fireman  until  he  has  his  last 
experience  at  being  put  back  on  the  engineers'  extra  list,  it  will 
show  a  very  checkered  career. 

You  will  find  that  for  the  first  three  or  four  years  of  his 


542 

service  as  liremau,  on  several  occasions  lie  did  not  earn  anything 
for  weeks,  or  maybe  for  months.  Then  he  worked  himself  up 
to  a  hii^h-priced  job  of  firing,  and  he  did  not  hold  that  very  long, 
for  business  changed  and  he  was  promoted  to  be  an  extra  engi- 
neer, and  then  he  starved,  or  business  fell  off,  and  the  engineer 
came  back  and  took  his  job  as  fireman,  and  he  hunted  a  job. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  we  to  imderstand,  that  these  compara- 
tively few  men  to  whom  j^ou  refer  here,  earn  good  wages  by 
working  long  hours,  or  making  quite  extensive  mileage? 

Mr.  Carter:  On  high  speed  trains  the  earnings  in,crease 
as  the  speed  increases.  Therefore,  on  an  excessively  high  speed 
train,  if  they  have  the  physical  ability,  they  may  make  two  or 
three  or  four  hundred  miles  in  a  day.  The^^  Avould  not  do  it  if 
they  knew  that  their  earnings  were  fixed,  but  the  average  man 
does  not  know  how  long  he  will  hold  that  run,  particularly  a 
fireman  or  a  demoted  engineer.  A  man  on  a  certain  passenger 
run  today  may  be  the  oldest  man  on  the  firemen's  seniority  list. 
Tomorrow  he  may  be  promoted  to  the  position  of  engineer.  Two 
months  later  he  may  be  away  back  down  on  the  list  as  a  fireman, 
and  have  50  per  cent  of  the  men  older  than  he  on  the  firemen's 
list. 

It  is  not  an  uncommon  thing  to  find  every  engine  on  a  road 
fired  by  an  engineer,  and  every  fireman  out  of  work. 

Mr.  Phillii)s :  AVhy  is  it  necessary  to  adopt  these  rules  of 
seniority? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  is  absolutelj^  necessary,  bad  as  it  is,  and 
hard  as  the  struggle  is  to  earn  positions  where  high  wages  are 
paid.  It  is  better  for  them  to  make  this  struggle  than  not  to 
have  their  senioritj^  rules. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Why  do  you  make  this  statement? 

Mr.  Carter:  Before  the  days  of  seniority,  the  man  did 
not  know  whether  he  had  a  job  or  not.  The  best  jobs  were 
always  given  to  the  friends  of  those  who  furnished  the  jobs. 
I  remember  a  time,  when,  if  a  mechanical  official  resigned,  or 
lost  his  position  on  one  railroad  and  went  to  another  railroad, 
he  generally  took  his  friends  with  him,  the  engineers  partic- 
ularly, and  when  he  went  with  that  other  road,  his  friends  that 
came  with  him  got  the  passenger  jobs,  the  best  paying  jobs.  On 
the  same  road,  a  fireman  who  did  not  attract  the  favorable  at- 
tention of  those  who  had  authority,  very  seldom  got  promoted 


543 

and  very  seldom  got  a  choice  run,  and  I  have  heard  it  said  that 
there  were  worse  conditions  than  that. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then,  do  you  understand  that  these  seniority 
and  piecework  conditions  which  you  have  described,  are  prefer- 
able to  a  condition  without  seniority  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Without  seniority  I  am  sure  that  favorites 
would  have  all  the  high  priced  jobs,  where  they  make  two  days 
in  one, 

Mr.  Phillips:     Why  do  you  say  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  was  the  history  of  railroading  before 
seniority  was  adopted.  That  was  what  made  the  adoption  of 
seniority  absolutely  essential.  Understand,  seniority  has  its  bad 
features  for  the  men.  They  all  recognize  the  very  bad  features 
that  I  have  described,  about  having  a  job  today  and  no  job  to- 
morrow; but,  the  fact  remains  that  with  seniority,  every  man 
who  is  meritorious,  every  man  who  fulfills  the  requirements  of 
the  service,  is  assured  that  in  his  turn  he  will  have  a  chance  at 
these  high-paid  runs.  You  understand,  however,  that  in  the 
weeding-out  process  or  collapsing  process,  as  applied  to  firemen, 
only  a  very  few  ever  reach  high  joaid  runs. 

Mr.  Phillips:     The  high  paid  run  is  a  delusion  then,  is  it? 

Mr.  Carter :     Oh,  no,  it  is  a  very  real  fact. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  not  speaking  of  those  days  in 
the  past  to  which  you  have  referred,  do  you  think  that  at  this 
day  there  is  any  railroad  where  favoritism  would  be  shown,  or 
improper  advantage  taken  of  any  man  if  the  seniority  rule  did 
not  prevail? 

Mr.  Carter :  With  the  knowledge  that  every  man  I  ever  saw 
is  absolutely  honest,  there  is  hardly  an  industry  today  in  which 
the  petty  officials  do  not  make  more  money  by  selling  jobs  than 
they  make  from  their  salary. 

Mr.  Phillips  :     T\Tiy  do  you  make  that  statement? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  it  was  demonstrated  in  the  courts  here 
in  Chicago  quite  recently.  I  think  the  Italian  section  foremen 
here  are  purchasing — I  do  not  believe  they  call  them  estates — but 
something  in  Italy  that  indicates  excessive  property  holdings,  by 
the  money  they  make  off  the  poor  section  hands  who  have  to  pay 
to  get  a  job  and  then  pay  to  keep  it,  and  unless  they  pay  more  to 
keep  it  than  another  fellow  ^-ill  pay  next  month  to  get  it,  why,  the 
force  is  changed. 


544 

Mr.  Byraiii :     What  makes  you  think  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  Tlirough  proceedings  in  court;  I  have  read  a 
report  of  the  court  proceedings. 

Mr.  By  ram :  That  is  not  ^vhat  I  mean.  Do  you  think  that 
applies  generally  to  railroads  f 

Mr.  Carter:  I  can  only  quote  Richard  J.  Knight,  who  is 
chief  inspector  of  emplojTnent  agencies,  and  who  has  been  work- 
ing on  this  subject  in  Illinois  for  some  time. 

(Reading)  :  "Richard  J.  Knight,  Chief  Inspector  of  Em- 
plo\nnent  agencies,  who  had  been  working  on  the  DeJoy  case 
since  July,  said  he  believes  that  90  per  cent  of  the  section  bosses 
employed  by  railroads  in  the  vicinity  of  Chicago,  enjoyed  privi- 
leges similar  to  those  through  which  DeJoy,  as  he  admitted  in 
court,  enabled  him  to  buy  a  villa  in  Italy.  Grand  Jury  action, to 
stop  this  form  of  grafting  will  probably  be  taken,  Mr.  Knight 
said. 

*'It  was  estimated  by  Inspector  Knight  that  section  bosses 
rake  in  $100,000  a  year  by  grafting  oft'  day  laborers.  The 
bosses  in  many  of  the  factories  employing  foreign  help  are  also 
believed  by  the  inspector  to  profit  by  the  same  system  of  charg- 
ing each  employe  a  fee  before  permitting  him  to  work.  In  many 
instances  the  factory  bosses  are  said  to  accept  presents  of  valu- 
able furniture  and  silverware  instead  of  cash. 

" DeJoy 's  method  was  set  forth  as  this:  he  makes  a  trip 
from  Shermerville,  where  he  bosses  a  gang,  once  a  month,  and 
takes  away  with  him  about  75  jobless  men.  These  men  pay  him 
from  $5  to  $10  for  their  jobs.  They  work  for  a  month  and  then 
are  discharged  to  make  room  for  new  recruits  with  'entrance 
fees. '  In  addition  the  workers  are  said  to  be  forced  to  buy  their 
supplies  from  a  supply  car,  which  charges  war  prices. 

''DeJoy  took  the  stand  after  thfese  facts  had  been  related, 
and  did  not  deny  the  charges." 

He  was  fined  $200.    I  could  read  you  a  great  deal  on  that. 

I  believe  if  those  section  men  were  working  under  the  sen- 
iority rule,  that  abuse  would  not  arise,  and  I  want  to  say  that  the 
railroads  are  not  responsible.  The  railroads  themselves  are 
greater  losers,  perhaps,  than  the  men,  by  the  dishonesty  of  these 
bosses.  I  am  not  blaming  the  railroads.  I  am  saying  that,  with- 
out regard  to  the  disposition  for  fairness  of  the  management 
without  seniority ;  that  is  the  history  of  the  world. 


545 

Mr.  Park:  Do  vou  believe  that  all  section  foremen  are 
grafters? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  believe  there  are  just  as  many  honest  men 
among  section  foremen  as  there  are  among  other  people  perhaps. 

Mr.  Park:  Do  you  believe  any  section  foreman  in  Chicago 
is  getting  $100,000  a  year  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  Mr.  Knight  said  the  section  foremen 
collectively.  He  did  not  mean  one.  But,  understand,  I  am  only 
quoting  the  Inspector  of  Factories,  and  not  quoting  my  own 
opinion,  because  it  was  a  great  surprise  to  me  to  learn  that 
that  condition  existed.  The  Court  believed  it  did  exist,  and 
fined  DeJoy  $200. 

Mr.  Byram :     What  did  they  fine  him  for  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     1  understand,  for  that. 

Mr.  Byram:     For  what? 

Mr.  Carter:  For  hiring  boys  and  paying  them  men's 
wages.  That  is  what  I  understand.  I  was  not  in  court.  I  read 
about  it.  If  I  am  wrong,  I  will  go  and  get  the  court  record.  I 
understand  he  hired  boys  and  paid  them  men's  wages,  and  then 
made  the  boys  divide  their  wages  with  him. 

Mr.  Byram:     Was  he  an  employe  of  a  railroad  company? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  understand  so.  I  only  cited  that  as  an  illus- 
tration of  why  they  should  have  seniority  today;  and  pardon 
me  for  saying  it,  I  think  the  quicker  the  railroads  have  seniority 
in  all  branches  of  the  service,  the  quicker  they  will  prevent  just 
such  abuses. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Is  that  question  of  the  institution  of  the  seni- 
ority rule  raised  by  your  demand  here? 

Mr.  Carter:  Seniority  is  the  reason  why  some  of  these 
men  get  these  high-paid  jobs.  The  question  was  asked  ''  Then 
why  do  we  have  seniority. ' '    I  am  explaining  it. 

Mr.  Park:  Mr.  Carter,  before  the  adoption  of  seniority, 
do  you  think  that  the  mechanical  officials  sold  the  positions  of 
locomotive  engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  not.  I  think  most  of  the  complaint 
was  as  I  described  a  while  ago.  We  will  say  that  there  was  a 
mechanical  official  on  the  Illinois  Central  Eailroad.  He  had 
many  friends  there,  engineers  maybe  not  very  high  in  the  serv- 
ice.   They  were  his  good  friends.    He  went  to  work,  we  will  say, 


546 

on  the  Colorado  Southern.  Of  course  that  road  was  not  in 
existence  at  that  time,  but  I  will  use  that  for  an  example.  He 
felt  that  he  wanted  his  friends  with  him.  When  he  got  there, 
he  wrote  back  to  the  engineers  that  he  liked  on  the  Illinois 
Central  and  he  said:  "If  you  will  come  out  here,  I  will  give 
you  a  passenger  run,"  and  maybe  a  man  who  had  been  on  that 
passenger  run  under  a  former  master  mechanic  for  years  had 
to  give  up  the  run  to  the  new  man  he  brought  with  him.  That, 
I  think,  was  the  abuse  that  brought  on  the  adoption  of  the 
seniority  rule. 

Mr.  Park:  Was  it  not  the  fact  that  when  the  new  roads 
were  building  in  the  west,  like  the  Union  Pacific  and  the  Santa 
Fe,  that  they  were  stocked  with  new  men  who  were  brought 
from  the  east? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  all  new  roads  are  stocked  with  men 
brought  from  other  roads. 

Mr.  Park:  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  seniority  has  been  in  effect 
for  twentv-five  or  thirty  years? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  The  second  road  I  went  to  work  on,  in 
1883,  had  seniority. 

Mr.  Park:  Yes,  I  hardly  remember  when  it  has  not  been 
in  vogue.  I  do  remember  of  engineers  going  from  the  east  into 
the  west  with  superintendents  of  machinery  and  taking  posi- 
tions as  engineers,  because  there  were  no  engineers  there. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  (|uite  sure  that  seniority  is  absolutely 
necessarj',  although  it  apparently  results  in  a  few  of  the  favored 
men  earning  the  big  wages. 

Mr.  Park:     I  think  we  all  agree  with  you  on  that. 

Mr.  Byram:  Coming  back  to  that  question  of  this  man 
trafficking  in  these  men — 

Mr.  Carter:     De  Joy — 

Mr.  Byram:  Are  you  sure  he  was  an  employe  of  a  railroad 
or  was  he  an  employment  agency  to  secure  laborers? 

Mr.  Carter  (Eeading) :  "Frank  DeJoy,  Section  Foreman 
of  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul  Railroad,  who  spends  the 
winter  months  on  his  estate  in  Italy,  was  fined  $200  and  costs 
when  arraigned  in  Municipal  Judge  Joseph  E.  Ryan's  court 
yesterday  on  the  charge  of  operating  an  employment  agency 
without  a  license." 

Mr.  Byram :     That  is  what  I  wanted  to  know. 


547 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  believe  conditions  under  seniority  are 
preferable  to  conditions  without  seniority? 

Mr.  Carter:     Most  assuredly  so. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Even  under  seniority  there  are  many  hard- 
ships and  conditions  which  are  hard  to  reconcile,  are  there  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  very  conditions  which  make  it  possible, 
under  seniority,  for  the  oldest  engineer  on  the  road  to  earn  what 
may  appear  to  be  abnormally  high  wages,  because  that  man  has 
struggled  for  twenty  or  thirty  years  under  adverse  conditions, 
in  order  to  get  that  high  paying  run. 

Mr.  Phillips:  So,  if  you  take  his  average  earnings  for  a 
period  of  years,  within,  say,  the  last  two  or  three  or  five  j^ears, 
they  might  appear  to  be  quite  high;  but  the  average  earnings 
for  the  whole  period  of  years  would  not  be  so  high  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  nearly  so  high.  It  is  only  so  long  as  his 
seniority  entitles  him  to  these  high  paid  runs  that  his  wages  are 
so  high.  You  understand  that  is  not  so  variable  with  the  engi- 
neers as  with  the  firemen.    Far  more  variable  with  the  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  taking  up,  on  page  3,  the  average 
rates  of  wages,  which  is  a  subject  you  have  dealt  with  exten- 
sively, we  reach  a  table,  down  near  the  bottom  of  the  page, 
exemplifying  some  average  earnings  of  engineers  and  firemen. 

Mr.  Carter:    Average  rates  of  wages. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes,  average  hourly  rates  of  wages. 

Mr.  Carter:  Pardon  me.  I  don't  know — I  don't  presume 
the  board  will  require  to  have  these  seven  pages  of  introductory 
matter  read,  but  it  should  be  understood  b}'  the  board,  to  have 
a  thorough  understanding  of  the  tables  that  follow.  Much  is 
said  in  these  eight  introductory  pages  and,  if  it  is  desirable, 
I  will  repeat  them  into  the  record. 

The  Chairman:  The  presumption  is  that  the  board  will 
read  them. 

Mr.  Carter:     It  is  not  necessary  for  me  to  read  them? 

The  Chaiiman:    Not  at  all. 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  will  not  be  my  purpose  to  burden  the 
record  with  that  nor  to  inflict  it  upon  the  board.  My  reason 
for  referring  to  the  printed  matter  on  these  pages  was  in  con- 
nection with  the  paragraph  following  the  table  on  page  4.  Still 
dealing  with  average  increases  in  rates  of  wages,  you  say: 

"For  reasons  already  stated  the  apparent  Increase  in  Rates 


548 

of  Wages  sliowii  above  is  erroneous,  for  the  locomotives  placed 
in  service  subsequent  to  1907  were  practically  all  of  the  largest 
types.  It  is  by  this  process,  however,  that  the  pu])lic,  and  even 
some  members  of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  have 
been  grossly  misled." 

Why  do  you  make  that  statement,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  know  it  to  be  a  fact  that  members  of  the 
Interstate  Commerce  Commission  have  been  grossly  misled,  and 
I  will  explain  why  and  how.  The  Interstate  Connnerce  Com- 
mission requires  railroads  to  make  reports  on  certain  forms. 
They  are  required  to  report  the  number  of  employes  in  service 
as  of  a  certain  date.  The  provisions,  however,  are  such  that 
they  are  not  clearly  understood  by  railroads,  for  some  railroads 
only  report  the  entire  number  making  a  full  day's  pay  on  the 
last  day  of  June — at  least,  I  have  been  so  informed  at  a  hearing 
of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission.  Others  adopt  differ- 
ent methods,  and  some  of  them  are  very  inaccurate  methods.  In 
any  event,  they  do  not  pretend  to  report  all  the  names  of  the 
employes  on  their  payrolls,  and  they  say,  with  good  reason, 
that  the  Interstate  Conunerce  Commission  does  not  require  them 
to  do  so. 

On  another  form,  they  are  required  by  the  Interstate  Com- 
merce Commission  to  report  the  total  compensation  paid  to 
employes  of  different  classes.  For  instance,  we  will  say  on  a 
certain  road  there  are  1,000  firemen ;  but  in  the  report  they  in- 
clude only  800  of  them,  and  they  honestly  believe  they  are  com- 
plying with  the  requirements  of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Com- 
mission. 

On  another  page  in  the  report  they  give  the  total  compensa- 
tion paid  to  the  1,000  firemen,  and  then  the  statistical  gentle- 
men connected  with  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  divide 
the  800  firemen  into  the  total  compensation  paid  to  the  1,000 
firemen,  and  say  that  the  result  is  the  average  compensation 
of  the  firemen  in  the  service.  That  is,  all  the  money  paid  to 
the  1,000  firemen  is  divided  by  the  number  of  men,  using  the 
800  reported  to  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission.  Now, 
that  is  not  an  error  of  the  railroads,  it  is  an  error  of  the  statis- 
tical department  of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission. 
Someone  evidently  was  responsible  for  the  error,  who  should 
have  kno^\^l  better;  but,  within  recent  years,  complaints  have 


549 

been  made  to  the  extent  that  a  special  hearing  was  granted  by 
the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  some  year  or  maybe  more 
than  a  year  ago,  and  Mr.  Stone  and  myself  and  others  protested 
against  any  records  of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission 
being  used  in  arbitration  proceedings,  when,  on  their  face,  they 
were  absolutely  false.  The  result  is  that  the  Interstate  Commerce 
Commission  has  acknowledged  it,  has  changed  the  method  of 
reporting. 

In  the  Engineers'  Arbitration — you  will  understand  the  ar- 
bitration was  not  under  the  law — the  five  neutral  members  of  the 
Board,  and  I  say  this  without  disrespect  to  them,  seemed  not  to 
be  satisfied  with  the  evidence  presented  either  by  the  railroads 
or  by  the  engineers,  and  they  employed  a  statistical  expert  and 
asked  him  to  supply  them  evidence  on  which  to  render  an  award. 
This  statistical  expert  naturally  went  to  the  records  of  the  Inter- 
state Commerce  Commission,  and  he  fell  into  the  same  error  and 
showed  an  average  wage.  Before  the  award  was  reached,  the 
arbitrator  for  the  engineers  protested,  sent  a  leter  to  the  Chair- 
man of  the  Interstate  Conmaerce  Commission,  Mr.  E.  E.  Clark. 
Mr.  E.  E.  Clark  wired  him  in  reply  intimating  that  no  depend- 
ence could  be  put  upon  the  average  wages  as  shown  by  the 
records  of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission. 

After  the  protest  of  the  arbitrator  of  the  engineers,  and 
after  they  had  reached  an  award,  I  am  told  they  inserted  some 
paragraphs  saying  that  they  recognized  that  that  was  not  exactly 
right,  but  they  kept  it  in  their  award  just  the  same. 

Now,  that  was  a.  little  bit  too  much.  I  came  on  two  or  three 
months  afterwards,  and  every  bit  of  evidence  that  was  presented 
of  that  character  by  the  railroads  in  the  Eastern  Arbitration  I 
protested  against,  I  even  protested  against  the  exhibits  pre- 
sented by  our  own  statistical  man,  where  he  had  fallen  into  the 
same  error.  As  counsel  for  the  Firemen  and  Hostlers,  I  was 
placed  in  the  peculiar  position  of  saying  that  our  own  exhibits 
were  inaccurate  because  the  statistical  man  took  the  average 
wages  as  reported  by  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  as 
being  accurate. 

Mr.  Nagel:  May  I  ask  a  question?  Has  such  report  been 
offered  in  evidence  before  this  Board  f 

Mr.  Stone :    Not  yet. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Not  as  yet. 


550 

Mr.  Nagel:     Is  lie  not  attacking  it  in  anticipation? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir.    It  is  in  reply  to  what  he  said. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  statement  has  been  made  that  the  Inter- 
state Conmierce  Commission  and  others  have  been  grossly  mis- 
led.   I  asked  Mr.  Carter  to  explain  that. 

Mr.  Nagel :  That  may  be  a  very  interesting  fact,  but  is  it 
germane  to  the  inquiry  before  this  Board? 

Mr.  ('arter:  1  am  going  to  anticipate  that  they  are  going 
to  offer  the  same  line  of  argument  liere  that  they  offered  before. 

Mr.  Nagel :  I  do  not  want  to  interrupt  you,  but  I  simply 
suggest  it  miglit  be  well  enough  to  see  whether  they  do  so  or  not. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  understand  Mr.  Sheean,  for  the  railroads, 
has  said  that  it  is  their  purpose  to  file  all  of  the  Eastern  awards, 
together  with  all  of  the  findings.    Is  that  correct,  Mr.  Sheean? 

Mr.  Sheean:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  will  say  further,  if  it  is  not  their  intention 
to  do  so,  I  shall  be  verj'^  glad  to  furnish  the  Board  ^^^.th  a  copy 
of  the  awards  and  findings,  for  its  information.  It  was  not  our 
purpose  to  file  them  as  exhibits,  however,  because  they  are  so  ab- 
solutely bad  we  do  not  care  to  give  them  that  much  recognition. 
We  will  be  very  glad  to  file  it  if  Mr.  Sheean  does  not. 

Mr.  Nagel:  You  misunderstood  me,  Mr.  Stone,  I  simply 
raise  the  question,  whether  we  are  here  attacking  everything 
that  is  bad  or  shall  we  wait  until  it  becomes  geraaane  to  this  in- 
quiry? 

Mr.  Stone:  For  the  benefit  of  the  Board,  I  hope  you  are 
not  going  to  attack  everything  that  is  bad,  because  if  you  do,  it 
is  going  to  be  a  prolonged  session. 

Mr.  Nagel :  That  is  what  I  was  thinking  of.  Even  so,  what 
is  to  be  the  order  of  inquiry  here,  are  we  to  anticipate  what  has 
been  promised  by  way  of  evidence,  or  do  you  propose  to  wait 
until  it  is  offered  in  evidence  and  then  meet  it  bv  rebuttal? 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  pleases,  the  purpose  of  my  ques- 
tion was  merely  to  permit  Mr.  Carter  to  explain  why  he  had 
made  this  statement.  Now,  the  statement  as  made  here,  was 
that  the  pul)lic,  and  also  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission, 
have  been  misled.  I  would  like  to  have  Mr.  Carter  explain,  if 
he  can,  and  it  is  proper,  how  this  misrepresentation  has  come 
about,  or  this  wrong  impression  that  has  seemed  to  have  been 


551 

reached  by  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  or  some  of  its 
members. 

Mr.  Nagel :  I  do  not  want  to  be  the  cause  of  delay  here,  I 
merely  want  to  add  that  the  mere  fact  that  the  witness  has 
made  a  statement  does  not  entitle  him  to  continue  to  talk  about 
it,  unless  it  belongs  in  this  part  of  the  case. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  can  readily  understand  the  point  made  by 
the  gentleman,  and  it  will  not  be  our  purpose  to  attack  ''bogies," 
or  anything  like  that.  I  think  Mr.  Carter  felt  it  was  necessary 
to  go  into  some  detail  and  explain  the  statement  that  he  had 
made  here ;  and,  as  Mr.  Stone  has  said,  we  can  file  the  awards, 
which  will  speak  for  themselves— or  copies  of  them,  for  refer- 
ence or  for  the  information  of  the  Board,  if  they  will  be  in  any 
way  useful.  I  am  sure  there  will  be  no  objection  from  our 
friends,  because  Mr  Sheean  has  already  signified  his  willingness 
to  do  so. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  do  not  think  they  should  be  made  an  exhibit, 
and  I  did  not  so  intend.  My  suggestion  was  that  all  of  these 
awards,  some  of  which  have  been  touched  upon  or  discussed 
somewhat,  and  similar  matters,  ought  to  be  filed,  so  as  to  be  ac- 
cessible to  the  Board. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  think  that  was  the  prime  reason  that  brought 
out  the  question,  because  we  knew  that  Mr.  Sheean  had  made 
that  statement,  and  knew  these  awards  would  be  before  the 
Board.  Of  course,  while  I  do  not  suppose  the  Board  is  going 
to  be  interested  in  what  caused  the  strike  of  the  French  mail 
carriers,  or  matters  of  that  kind,  yet  it  is  in  the  award  and  in 
the  opinion  handed  down  by  the  Board. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  you  may  proceed  to  ex- 
plain, if  it  is  agreeable  to  the  Board. 

(The  last  portion  of  Mr.  Carter's  answer  was  repeated  to 
him  by  the  reporter.) 

Mr.  Carter:  I  haven't  anything  further  to  say  on  that, 
except  to  say  that  there  is  another  way  that  anyone  may  easily 
be  misled,  even  members  of  Boards  of  Arbitration. 

We  will  take  the  matter  of  average  wages  and  increases  in 
average  wages.  Let  us  say,  in  1907,  on  a  certain  road,  unnamed, 
they  had  100  small  engines,  on  which  there  was  a  low  rate  of 
wages  paid.  In  1910  they  had  those  small  engines  and  another 
100  engines,  midway  between  the  largest  and  smallest,  on  which 


552 

a  higher  rate  was  paid.  In  1914,  they  had  the  largest  engine  in 
service,  on  which  the  highest  rate  was  paid.  Now,  the  Interstate 
Commerce  Commission  and  the  Bureau  of  Railway  Economics, 
maintained  in  Washington  by  the  railroads,  have  seemingly 
overlooked  that  if  they  take  the  average  rate  in  each  of  those 
years  paid  on  that  railroad,  it  shows  a  wonderful  increase,  when, 
in  fact,  there  may  not  hav^e  been  a  penny  of  increase.  They  are 
comparing  the  rates  on  the  small  engines  in  1907,  with  the  rates 
of  the  medium  sized  engines,  in  1910,  and,  in  1914,  ^\dth  the  rates 
on  the  largest  engines,  and  they  say  the  average  rate,  in  1907, 
we  will  say  was  27  cents  an  hour.  Now,  by  the  introduction  of 
larger  power  in  1910  it  might  be  30  cents  an  hour;  and  by  the 
introduction  of  still  larger  power  in  1914,  it  may  be  an  average 
of  35  cents  an  hour,  and  they  say  that  is  the  increase  in  rates, 
when  the  fact  is  possible  that  there  would  not  be  a  penny  of  in- 
crease in  rates  on  the  same  engines.  Now,  the  whole  world  has 
been  deceived  in  that  way. 

The  railroads  maintain  at  Washington  what  is  known  as 
the  Bureau  of  Railway  Economics.  They  have  had  very  learned 
men  in  charge,  Mr.  McPherson — of  what  university  is  that — was 
nominally  in  charge,  and  Mr.  Dixon,  a  statistician  of  repute,  was 
next  in  charge,  I  think.  Now,  they  did  not  discover  that  condi- 
tion, nor  did  they  discover  if  you  divide  800  firemen  into  what 
1,000  firemen  earn,  you  do  not  show  the  true  average. 

Now,  the  Bureau  of  Railway  Economics  has  gotten  out 
bulletins,  from  time  to  time,  for  the  purpose  of  showing  that 
railroad  men  were  receiving  excessively  high  wages,  and  they 
have  overlooked,  statisticians  as  they  were,  the  inaccuracy  of 
their  deductions. 

As  the  best  evidence  that  the  members  of  the  Interstate 
Commerce  Connnission  have  been  misled  and  as  the  best  evi- 
dence that  the  railroads  have  availed  themselves  of  that,  I  have 
here  the  brief  of  the  railroads  in  the  Firemen's  Arbitration,  and 
they  begin  the  brief  with  this  quotation: 

"  Railroad  labor,  certainly  organized  railroad  labor,  is 
probably  as  well  paid,  and  some  say  better  paid  than  labor  of 
other  kinds,  upon  the  average.  Advance  in  Rates  Cases,  20  I. 
C.  C.  R.,  243.)" 

Now,  members   of  the  Interstate   Commerce   Commission 


553 

have  as  much  as  intimated,  in  open  hearing,  that  they  misunder- 
stood the  facts  when  they  made  that  statement;  and  the  rail- 
roads must  not  have  understood  that  they  were  misleading-  the 
public,  because  I  believe  that  if  they  had  thought  that  to  divide 
the  earnings  of  1,000  firemen  by  800  men  was  misleading,  they 
would  not  have  used  it  in  their  brief  to  defeat  the  firemen  in  their 
efforts  for  an  increase  in  wages.  I  am  not  attributing  any  dis- 
honesty of  purpose  to  them,  I  think  it  was  an  oversight.  When 
they  say  that  when  a  railroad  pays  $4  a  day  on  a  Mikado  and 
only  paid  $3  on  a  small  engine,  that  is  a  25  per  cent  increase 
in  wages,  when  they  saj' ' '  We  are  paying  $4  and  before  we  only 
paid  $3,"  I  am  sure  they  would  not  deliberately  deceive  the 
public  in  their  bulletins  issued  by  the  Bureau  of  Railway  Eco- 
nomics. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  I  understand  you  correctly,  there  are  two 
ways  in  which  a  lajinan,  even  a  learned  man,  may  fall  into 
error;  first,  by  taking  the  total  amount  of  wages  earned  and 
dividing  that  total  by  a  number  of  employes  less  than  actually 
worked  in  earning  that  aggregate  amount,  that  would  bring  a 
higher  average  per  man  than  would  actually  be  the  case? 

Mp.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then,  by  another  method,  a  small  engine,  as 
you  say,  carrying  a  three  dollar  rate  at  one  time,  may  be  entirely 
supplanted  by  a  large  engine  carrying  a  four  dollar  rate  five 
years  later  or  three  years  later,  and  there  appears  to  be  a  33 1/3 
per  cent  increase  in  pay,  when,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  there  has  been 
no  change  in  rates  at  all? 

Mr.  Carter :     That  is  what  I  was  trying  to  bring  out. 

Mr.  Phillips :  In  citing  such  examples  you  only  do  so  for 
the  purposes  of  exemplification,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  do  it  to  show  that  we  here  should  be  guarded 
against  the  errors  that  everybody  else  has  conunitted.  I  do  not 
want  the  members  of  this  Board  to  fail  into  the  same  error  that 
the  members  of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  did,  or  tlie 
statisticians  of  the  railroads  in  their  Bureau  of  Railway  Eco- 
nomics, and  the  fact  that  they  all  fell  into  this  error  shows  how 
easy  it  is  to  fall  into  an  error  honestly,  and  I  do  not  want  any- 
body to  fall  into  an  error  of  that  kind  here. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Do  you  believe  that  the  fact  that  the  forms 


554 

on  wliich  these  reports  have  been  made  have  been  changed,  is 
evidence  that  they  were  recognized  as  being  inaccurate? 

Mr.  Carter:  They  were  changed  because  of  great  com- 
plaint. I  made  a  protest  to  the  Chairman  of  the  Interstate  Com- 
merce Commission  that  it  was  unfair  to  railroad  employes  for 
the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  to  permit  such  statistics, 
taken  from  that  office,  to  be  used  in  arbitration  proceedings. 
They  seemed  to  take  considerable  interest  in  it,  and  Mr.  Stone 
and  I  and  others  were  notified  that  there  would  be  a  special  hear- 
ing on  the  subject,  and  there  was  a  hearing,  and  I  brought  out 
the  manner  in  which  any  person,  no  matter  how  honest,  and,  I 
might  say,  how  expert  as  a  statistician,  might  fall  into  an  error ; 
and  I  do  not  know  whether  it  was  what  I  said  or  not,  but  they 
have  changed  the  method,  and  hereafter  they  are  not  going  to 
permit  such  errors. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  before  closing  with  this  ex- 
hibit, I  understand  that  some  of  the  tables  contained  herein  are 
derivative  tables,  from  other  tables,  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Carter:  What  you  might  call  the  basic  tables  of  this 
report  are  tables  7,  8  and  9.  While  table  7  is  a  basic  table  of 
this  report,  it  is  a  derivative  table  from  the  schedules  in  effect 
for  the  years  named.  Table  8,  while  used  as  a  basic  table  in 
this  report,  is  a  derivative  table  from  Bulletins  131  and  143, 
issued  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics.  Table  9  is  based 
upon  a  statement  prepared  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics 
two  years  ago,  I  think,  but  I  had  nothing  nearer.  Now,  other 
tables  in  this  report  are  based  upon  tables  7,  8  and  9. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Mr,  Carter,  have  you  the  bulletins,  the  gov- 
ernment editions,  to  which  you  have  referred  as  Bulletins  num- 
bers 131  and  143? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  have  here  Bulletin  of  the  United  States 
Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics,  Number  131.  Do  you  identify  this 
as  the  bulletin  from  which  you  have  quoted? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  We  desire  to  introduce  this  as  Exhibit  Num- 
ber 6. 

(Bulletin,  so  offered  and  identified,  was  received  in  evi- 
dence and  thereupon  marked  ** Employes'  Exhibit  No.  6,  De- 
cember 7,  1914.") 


555 

Mr.  Phillips :  We  have  here  Bulletin  Number  143,  from  the 
Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics.  Is  this  the  volume  from  which 
your  figures  were  taken! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  We  desire  to  introduce  this  Bulletin  num- 
ber 143,  as  Exhibit  number  7. 

(The  Bulletin,  so  offered  and  identified,  was  received  in 
evidence  and  thereupon  marked  ' '  Employes '  Exhibit  No.  7,  De- 
cember 7, 1914.") 

Mr.  Burgess:  I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Carter  a  question 
before  you  go  to  your  other  exhibit. 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  will  not  be  our  purpose  to  ask  a  single 
question  on  these  exhibits.  We  file  them  as  supporting  data, 
that  is  all. 

Mr.  Burgess :  I  do  not  want  to  interrupt  you  if  you  are  not 
through. 

Mr.  Phillips :    You  are  not  interrupting  me  at  all. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Mr.  Carter,  please  turn  to  table  4,  page  12. 
In  order  that  there  will  be  no  mistake,  I  would  like  to  ask  you 
where  you  obtained  the  figures  which  set  forth  that  a  hod  carrier, 
working  in  the  city  of  Chicago,  would  receive  $15.36  for  sixteen 
hours  work  on  a  Sunday  or  a  holiday,  while  an  engineer  on  the 
Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  Railroad,  running  the  largest 
type  of  engines,  would  receive  $5.12  less  money  with  the  same 
basis  of  hours? 

Mr.  Carter :  The  hod  carrier 's  rate  was  taken  from  Bulle- 
tin number  143,  for  the  year  1913,  and  the  rate  of  overtime  was 
taken  from  table  8,  for  the  city  of  Chicago,  on  page  93  of  Exhibit 
5,  as  reported  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics,  at  Washington. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Well,  that  applies,  then,  to  all  the  rates  that 
we  find  in  this  table,  namely,  that  the  same  hod  carrier  would 
receive  $8.96  more  than  a  locomotive  fireman,  on  the  largest  en- 
gine, for  sixteen  hours,  provided  the  service  was  rendered  on  a 
Sunday  or  a  holiday  1 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes ;  but  do  not  misunderstand  me,  these  hod 
carriers  do  not  do  that  work.  If  they  were  required  to  do  that 
work  they  would  be  so  paid,  but  no  employer  would  pay  them, 
he  would  hire  more  hod  carriers,  you  know. 

Mr.  Burgess :  But,  if  he  was  required  to  do  that  work,  he 
would  receive  that  much  more  money? 


556 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes. 

Mr.  Park :  Are  the  hod  carriers  required  to  work  between 
certain  specified  hours? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  believe  they  have  certain  hours  to  report  and 
certain  liours  to  quit. 

Mr.  Park:  Tlien,  if  it  was  necessary  to  i)ush  a  buikling 
along,  it  would  be  necessary  to  pay  the  double  time,  wouldn't  it, 
so  that  they  would  get  the  big  pay  for  the  day's  work? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  think  they  would  hire  more  hod  carriers. 

Mr.  Park :  Can  they  hire  more  hod  carriers  if  the  character 
of  the  work  is  such  that  it  has  got  to  go  along  during  the  night, 
sav? 

Mr.  Carter:  They  pay  the  excessive  rate  if  they  do  the 
work  at  night,  and  that  applies  to  nearly  all  trades,  except  the 
printing  trade,  where  they  have  two  shifts,  and  the  bakers'  trade, 
where  they  have  two  shifts,  and  then  they  pay  a  higher  rate. 

Mr.  Park :  So  they  could  not  escape  the  paying  of  double 
time  by  employing  more  hod  carriers;  that  would  not  be  per- 
mitted, would  it,  one  going  off  and  the  other  coming  on  at  a  cer- 
tain time? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  know  what  they  would  do  if  they  had 
a  night  force  of  hod  carriers. 

Mr.  Park:  As  I  understand  it,  they  work  say  between 
7.  A.  M.  and  4  P.  M.,  for  certain  defined  hours.  If  that  is  true — 
T  tliink  it  is  true  of  the  bricklayers — if  they  w^ork  outside  of  those 
hours,  they  get  the  double  time? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  so.  I  don 't  know  but  what  there  may 
l)e,  however,  an  arrangement  where  a  building  where  they 
worked  continuously  could  not  run  two  shifts.  I  don't  see  any- 
tliing  in  any  schedule  or  reports  or  bulletins  to  that  effect  but 
I  am  not  saying  it  could  not  be  done. 

Mr.  Park :  If  you  -worked  three  shifts  of  eight  hours  each, 
you  would  not  have  any  overtime  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  it  is  permissible.  I  don't  know  whether 
it  is  or  not.  But  where  they  have  an  agreement  to  work  night 
work  they  always  have  a  much  higher  rate  for  night  work  than 
for  the  day  work.  That  applies  in  the  bakery  trade  and  in  the 
printing  trade  where  they  do  work  day  and  night. 

Mr.  Burgess :  The  intent  of  the  question  was  without  tak- 
ing into  consideration  what  restrictions  might  be  placed  around 


557 

the  hod  eairiev,  I  presume  it  is  the  intention  not  to  work  an 
engineer  sixteen  hours  or  a  fireman  either  one,  but  if  they  do 
work  sixteen  hours  the  hod  carrier  would  draw,  if  these  tables 
are  correct,  and  I  have  the  correct  understanding  of  them,  $15. .'J6 
against  the  engineer's  $10.24,  or  $5.12  more  money,  and  he  would 
draw  $8.96  more  money  than  the  fireman,  and  $11.36  more  money 
than  the  hostler  for  the  same  number  of  hours. 

Mr.  Park:  I  understand  that  it  is  generally  conceded  that 
it  takes  about  80  per  cent  of  the  cost  of  a  building  to  pay  the 
labor  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Burgess :     That  might  be.    Are  you  through,  Mr.  Park? 
Mr.  Park:     That  is  all,  yes. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Mr.  Carter,  there  has  been  considerable  in- 
terrogation by  counsel  from  both  sides  in  regard  to  the  reason 
that  prompted  the  selection  of  certain  weights  on  drivers  as  the 
proper  method  to  measure  the  compensation  for  engineers  and 
firemen.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  for  many  years  the  size  of  the 
cylinder  was  the  controlling  factor  for  determining  the  compen- 
sation for  Engineers  and  Firemen? 
Mr.  Carter:     On  some  roads. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Can  you  state  whether  or  not  the  principle 
that  governed  the  selection  of  the  figures  in  your  proposal  known 
as  weights  on  drivers,  was  that  they  were  selected  because  they 
conformed  approximately  to  the  weight  that  they  found  with 
engines  that  had  a  certain  size  cylinder,  before  that  expression 
was  used? 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  necessarily  so,  in  every  instance. 
Mr.  Burgess:  No,  but  in  a  general  way? 
Mr.  Carter:  In  a  general  way  you  will  find  that  on  roads 
where  the  rates  of  wages  of  Engineers  and  Firemen  are  based 
on  cylinder  dimensions,  that  the  rate  increases  with  the  size  of 
the  locomotive.  That  is,  the  low  rate  under  cylinder  dimension, 
would  be  a  low  rate  under  weight  on  drivers,  and  vice  versa. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Yes,  but  as  I  remember  the  testimony,  as 
yet  there  has  been  no  clear  statement  as  to  why  given  weights 
as  appear  in  your  proposal,  were  selected.  In  order  to  clear 
that  situation,  in  my  own  mind  at  least,  I  assumed  that  an  en- 
gine that  was  formerly  spoken  of  as  an  18-inch  cylinder,  was 
now  spoken  of  as  a  certain  weight  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Carter:    Well,  approximately,  that  is  correct. 


558 

Mr.  Burgess:  And  that  weight  was  detennined  by  the 
weight  they  found  on  the  drivers  when  they  spoke  of  her  as  a 
certain  sized  cylinder  engine? 

Mr.  Carter:  Approximately  that  is  correct,  but  in  some 
instances  it  is  not  correct.  A  locomotive  may  have  a  22-inch 
cylinder,  carrying  225  pounds  of  steam.  On  account  of  that 
high  steam  pressure  it  calls  for  heavier  weight  on  drivers. 
Another  engine  having  the  same  size  cylinder  may  only  have  160 
pounds  of  steam,  and  while  the  cylinders  on  both  engines  are 
the  same,  you  will  find  that  the  size  and  weight  of  the  loco- 
motives are  vastly  different. 

Mr.  Burgess:  I  was  speaking,  of  course,  Mr.  Carter,  in  a 
general  way. 

Mr.  Carter:  In  a  general  way  you  will  find  that  the  in- 
crease is  intended  to  cover  the  same  idea. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Carter,  I  should  like  to  ask  you  in  these 
hourly  rates  you  show  here  for  engineers — 

Mr.  Carter:    What  page,  please? 

Mr.  Stone:  Pages  18  to  58;  you  arrive  at  that  by  dividing 
the  daily  rate  by  10,  which  gives  the  hourly  rate. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  any  one  of  these  men  could 
be  worked  ten  hours  at  that  rate  without  receiving  any  more 
additional  pay  than  the  daily  rate  shown? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  that  is  the  intent  of  the  rate.  You  will 
understand,  however,  that  if  wages  are  fixed  on  the  mileage 
basis  of  so  much  for  one  hundred  miles,  when  that  hundred 
miles  has  been  performed,  that  money  has  been  earned,  and 
employes  are  not  required  to  fill  out  the  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  is  true;  while  he  might  possibly  earn  that 
amount  of  money  in  less  than  that  number  of  hours,  yet  the  fact 
remains  that  that  number  of  hours  would  have  to  be  exceeded 
before  any  additional  pay  would  be  received? 

Mr.  Carter:  On  a  division  of  100  miles,  unless  it  requires 
over  ten  hours  to  make  the  trip,  why  there  would  be  no  addi- 
tional pay  received. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  showing  this  increase  for  this  night  service 
to  all  these  other  crafts,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  railroads  recog- 
nize this  same  principle  for  men  in  the  shop  trades,  such  as 
machinists,  boiler  makers  and  so  forth? 


559 

Mr.  Carter:  I  cannot  answer  that  question.  I  have  not 
made  an  investigation.  I  will  say,  that  I  had  started  the  prepara- 
tion of  an  exhibit  of  several  hundred  pages,  showing  the  wage 
schedules  of  all  these  other  trades,  but  the  arbitration  came  toe 
quick.    I  did  not  get  to  finish  it. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  yard  crews  such  as  switch- 
men and  yard  conductors  and  yard  foremen,  such  as  they  are 
called,  are  paid  a  higher  rate  for  the  night  workers  slip  tricks. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  understand  that  switchmen  working  in 
yards  receive  a  higher  rate  for  night  work  than  for  day  work. 
I  cannot  certify  to  the  accuracy  of  that.  I  have  seen  it  in 
schedules,  but  I  don't  remember  what  schedules. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  speaking  of  these  men  who  work  alongside 
the  track  in  the  building  trades,  is  there  any  comparison  of  the 
responsibility  between  the  two  men,  the  men  in  the  cab  of  the 
locomotive  and  the  men  in  the  building  trades  1 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  from  my  viewpoint;  but  I  do  not  know 
what  their  viewpoint  is. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  think  you  said  you  were  not  aware  of  the 
Interstate  Commerce  Commission  ruling  that  the  time  begins 
when  responsibility  begins,  and  ends  when  responsibility  ceases? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  have  overlooked  that  ruling. 

Mr.  Stone:     Is  it  not  a  fact  that  there  is  such  a  ruling? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  say  if  there  is  I  have  overlooked  it.  I  have 
all  the  rulings  of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  on  the 
Hours  of  Service  Law.    Not  here,  however. 

Mr.  Stone :     That  is  all,  I  think. 

Mr.  Phillips :     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman :  You  may  go  ahead ;  we  have  fifteen  minutes 
more. 

CEOSS  EXAlVnNATION. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  turning  to  the  first  page  of  your 
exhibit  and  the  part  referred  to,  in  which  the  statement  is  made 
that: 

''Eates  of  wages  of  Locomotive  Engineers  and  Firemen  in 
road  service,  being  usually  fixed  upon  a  *  piece-work'  basis,  at  a 
certain  rate  'per  hundred  miles,'  it  follows  that  the  higher  the 
average  speed  of  a  train  between  terminals  the  greater  the  earn- 
ings in  a  given  time,"  are  you  able  to  state  what  proportion  of 


560 

the  earnings  of  Engineers  and  Firemen  is  now  made  on  this 
piece-work  basis? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  practically  all  passenger  service,  and 
perhaps  all  fast  freight;  but  I  think  that  the  vast  majority  of 
the  heavy  freight  service  is  on  an  hourly  basis,  and  I  am  quite 
sure  that  all  the  time  of  switch  engineers  and  switch  firemen  is 
on  the  hourly  l)asis,  and  I  am  quite  sure  that  all  the  time  of  the 
locomotive  hostlers  is  on  the  hourly  basis. 

Mr.  Slieean:  So  that  if  the  comparative  tables  with  other 
trades  were  compiled  in  the  manner  in  which  you  liave  com- 
piled this  through  freight,  it  would  not  be  a  fairly  comparable 
basis  to  compare  with  any  of  the  passenger  service? 

Mr.  Carter:  This  statement  specifically  states  it  is  only 
comparing  througli  freiglit  rates  per  hour,  and  not  passenger 
rates. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  understood  you  to  say  that  a  large  part  of 
the  fast  freights  were  not  now^  paid  for  on  an  hourly  basis. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  quite  sure  that  it  is  paid  on  the  mileage 
basis. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  in  the  comparisons  which  you  have 
made,  no  distinction  has  been  drawn  between  any  of  the  fast 
freight  and  the  other  rates  of  freight. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  a  distinction  has  been  drawn.  I  want  it 
specifically  understood  that  it  is  only  when  locomotive  Engi- 
neers and  Firemen  are  working  on  the  hourly  basis  that  this 
statement  is  comparable. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Only  when  they  are  working  on  the  hourly 
basis? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then  if  in  fact  the  statistics  and  figures 
should  show  that  in  the  through  freight  service  less  than  30 
per  cent  was  paid  on  the  hourly  basis,  this  would  compare  with 
only  30  per  cent  of  that  through  freight  service? 

Mr.  Carter :     If  that  is  a  fact,  that  would  be  the  conclusion. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  it  would  not  compare  with  any  of  the 
passenger  service? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  does  not  compare  with  any  of  the  way 
freight  service,  because  the  rates  here  extended  are  not  way 
freight. 


561 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  way  freight  men  are  generally  on  the 
hourly  basis,  and  therefore  it  would  compare. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Except  that  you  have  not  shown  the  way 
freight  rates  here. 

Mr.  Carter;  I  have  not  shown  the  way  freight  rates,  but 
if  the  way  freight  rates  were  the  same  as  through  freight  rates, 
I  feel  sure  that  the  way  freight  men  would  be  on  an  hourly 
basis.    That  is  what  I  mean. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes,  but  you  know,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  that 
the  way  freight  rates  are  not  the  through  freight  rates. 

Mr.  Carter :     They  are  generally  higher. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Generally  higher  1 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes, 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  is  recognized,  is  it  not,  in  the  tables  with 
which  you  make  the  comparison,  that  wherever  piece-work  enters 
into  and  forms  part  of  the  wage  of  any  employes,  such  piece- 
work rate  cannot  be  fairly  compared  with  the  rate  shown  in 
this  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics  Bulletin. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  do  not  think  you  will  find  piece-work  used  in 
the  trades  there,  except  where  the  employes  have  been  coerced 
into  accepting  piece-work. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Right  at  the  very  beginning  of  the  Bulletin 
on  which  your  comparisons  are  based.  Bulletin  No.  131 ,  is  it  not 
stated  in  the  second  paragraph  of  that  bulletin : 

''The  wage  scales  published  in  this  report  are  all  for  time 
rates.  In  some  localities  certain  trades  have  piece  rate  scales 
which  it  was  not  deemed  practicable  to  publish.  In  other  local- 
ities there  were  nominal  time  rates  which  have  not  been  ])ub- 
lished,  as  they  were  not  representative  of  actual  earnings  under 
prevailing  rates  or  bonuses." 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  that  is  true,  and  for  the  same  reason  I 
could  not  consider  the  rates  of  wages  of  engineers  or  firemen 
on  a  piece-work  basis,  because  you  cannot  tell  anything  about 
that. 

Mr.  Sheean :  No.  Now,  in  the  actual  through  freight  opera- 
tion, even  running  first  in  and  first  out,  in  pool  or  unassigned 
service,  is  it  not  true  that  when  the  men  are  running  first  in  and 
first  out,  those  who  are  on  hours  one  day,  will  be  on  miles  on 
their  next  trip  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Very  probably  so. 


562 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  at  the  end  of  their  monthly  pay  roll 
it  is  hard  to  find,  even  in  the  through  or  unassigned  or  pool  serv- 
ice, a  man  who  gets  the  entire  month  on  hours,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :     Not  in  yard  service,  but  in — 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  talking  about  freight  service.  There  is 
no  dispute  about  the  yards  being  on  an  hourly  basis. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  would  say  everything  would  depend  on  the 
])ractice  of  the  railroads.  On  some  divisions  and  some  roads 
they  do  not  consider  it  economical  to  get  freight  over  the  road 
at  a  much  faster  speed  than  ten  hours,  from  the  beginning  to 
the  end.  They  generally  load  their  locomotives  to  that  extent 
that  they  cannot  exceed  that  speed. 

On  other  roads  they  have  a  different  policy,  and  may  load 
their  trains  lighter,  and  want  to  get  them  over  the  road. 

Mr.  Sheean :  "Well,  these  comparative  tables  are  all  made 
to  compare  only  with  the  wages  of  men  who  work  all  of  the  time 
on  hours, 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir.  I  will  try  to  state  it  distinctly,  so 
that  there  shall  be  no  misunderstanding. 

These  rates  quoted  in  this  table  for  engineers  and  firemen 
are  the  rates  paid  by  railroads  when  Engineers  and  Firemen 
are  working  on  the  hourly  basis,  or  when  the  freight  trains 
equal  or  exceed  a  rate  of  speed  of  ten  miles  an  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is  never  accumulated  except  to  the  ex- 
tent of  one  trip,  is  it,  that  the  pay  for  each  trip  is  reckoned  either 
in  miles  or  hours,  whichever  is  greater  for  the  man. 

Mr.  Carter:     Each  trip. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  in  making  the  comparison,  here  is  the 
rate  per  hour,  where  the  payment  is  made  by  the  hour. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  .  In  obtaining  the  rate  per  hour  as  shoAvn  in 
your  tables  1,  2  and  3 — 

Mr.  Carter :     Average  rate  per  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Just  how  is  that  average  rate  obtained? 

Mr.  Carter:    For  what  industry — for  what  trade? 

Mr.  Sheean :    For  the  engineers  and  firemen. 

Mr.  Carter:  We  took  table  7  as  it  was  completed,  to  the 
third  column.  That  is,  when  table  7  had  been  completed  to 
that  degree  that  we  had  the  rates  for  each  engine  for  each  year, 
we  took  the  table  to  the  adding  machine  and  registered  each 


563 

rate  shown,  whether  it  was  100  or  100,000  in  each  year,  without 
regard  to  the  size  of  the  locomotive.  We  added  the  rates  of  big 
locomotives  and  little  locomotives,  all  together.  When  we  had 
added  the  last  rate,  we  pulled  the  total.  We  then  took  the  ribbon 
and  counted  the  number  of  rates,  and  divided  them  into  the 
total,  and  the  resulting  quotient  was  the  average  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is,  Mr.  Carter,  you  took  the  rate  quoted 
on  an  eight-wheel  engine  in  freight  service  as  having  equal  value 
in  this  average,  with  a  rate  quoted  on  an  engine  weighing  be- 
tween 140,000  and  170,000  pounds  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  did,  greatly  to  the  detriment  of  the  men, 
and  greatly  to  the  benefit  of  the  railroad  companies. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  that  rate  quoted  on  an  eight-wheel 
engine,  whicli  would  be  used  in  freight  service  only  in  case  of 
emergency,  would  it  not — 

Mr.  Carter:     How  is  that? 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  small  eight-wheel  engine  would  be  used 
in  freight  ser\dce  only  with  great  irregularity. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  should  hate  to  answer  that  question,  because 
I  do  not  positively  know,  but  I  should  judge  that  to  be  true. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  number  of  engines  taking  the  weight 
on  drivers  between  140,000  and  170,000  pounds,  might  run  into 
the  hundreds  of  engines? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  but  in  finding  an  average  of  rates,  it 
does  not  matter  anything  about  the  number  of  engines. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Nothing  about  the  numbers  of  engines ! 

Mr.  Carter:     It  has  nothing  to  do  with  the  average. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Nor  how  many  operate  under  any  actual 
rate? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Or  whether  any  of  them  actually  paid  that 
rate.  You  took  the  number  of  rates  shown  in  the  schedule,  and 
totaled  the  number;  but  whether  any  engine  actually  operates 
under  any  of  those  rates  at  any  time,  you  arrive  at  the  average 
by  dividing  the  total  rate  by  the  total  number  quoted? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  is  the  average  rate  for  each  one  of 
these? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  is  the  average  rate.  May  I  explain  the 
difference  between  average  rate  and  average  earnings? 


564 

Mr.  JSheeau:  1  wisli  you  would,  because  I  do  not  tliiuk  you 
have  always  made  that  distinction  in  your  testimony,  between 
average  rate  and  average  earnings. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  will  say  that  the  earnings  of  a  hundred  fire- 
men on  a  railroad  may  increase  or  decrease  at  a  different  ratio 
than  the  earnings  of  any  one  of  them,  for  eacli  one  depends  upon 
the  rate  on  one  engine,  while  the  earnings  for  the  one  hundred 
men  depend  upon  the  earnings  for  the  hundred  engines. 

Now,  an  average  rate  is  an  average  of  rates,  not  an  average 
of  earnings. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  rates  thus  averaged  are  the  rates 
which  appear  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Irrespective  of  the  number  of  engines  that 
may  operate  under  any  rate,  and  irrespective  of  the  fact  that  no 
engine  may  have  operated  under  certain  of  the  rates  during 
the  particular  time. 

Mr.  Carter:     That  is  true. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  the  per  cent  of  increase  here  is  a 
per  cent  based  u])on  the  numbers  of  rates  shown  in  the  different 
schedules. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  but  it  will  be  much  higher  than  if  we 
had  excluded  these  little  engines  that  you  say  are  not  in  freight 
service.  If  they  had  been  excluded,  it  would  be  much  higher 
than  I  have  shown. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  percentage  average  shown  in  any  par- 
ticular line  would  be  dependent  upon  how  many  different  rates 
were  quoted  in  that  schedule.  The  greater  number  of  rates  there 
were  quoted,  the  greater  deduction  it  would  accomplish  in  the 
average. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  and  I  want  to  confess  that  if  it  is  true 
that  the  smaller  engines  are  no  longer  in  freight  service,  the 
average  rate  is  less  in  the  book  than  it  is  in  fact ;  because  if  you 
exclude  those  small  engines  from  the  computation,  you  will 
naturally  find  a  higher  average  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  will  find  a  higher  average  rate,  and 
therefore  a  higher  average  increase,  for  you  are  di\4ding  it  by 
a  less  number. 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  necessarily  so.  I  think  the  contrary  is 
true.    I  think  it  would  be  less. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Mr.  Carter,  if  you  are  taking  an  aggregate 


565 

total  of  percentages  and  are  dividing  that  simply  by  an  ag- 
gregate number  in  order  to  find  the  average  per  cent,  by  as  much 
as  you  reduce  the  number,  by  so  much  you  will  increase  the  per- 
cent, if  the  total  remains  the  same,  will  you  not"? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir.  If  you  add  six  and  six  together  and 
divide  by  two,  the  average  will  be  six.  If  you  add  six  and  six 
and  six  together  and  divide  by  three,  the  average  will  be  six; 
and  if  you  only  use  six  once,  it  will  be  six;  so  that  the  number 
you  use  does  not  affect  the  average. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  number  of  rates  that  are  quoted  in  the 
schedule  will  affect  your  percentage? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  if  you  left  out  all  the  high  rates  on  these 
big  Mikados  and  Mallets,  it  would  make  it  leas,  and  if  you  leave 
out  all  the  eight  wheel  engines  that  you  talk  about  being  out 
of  the  freight  service,  it  would  be  more;  therefore  that  state- 
ment there  is  largely  against  the  men  and  very  favorable  to 
the  company. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  if  you  had  here  one  engine,  an 
eight  wheel  engine,  which  in  1910  was  taking  this  rate,  and  one 
ten  wheel  engine  which  was  taking  this  rate,  and  500  Consoli- 
dation engines  which  were  taking  that  rate,  and  then  in  1913  the 
numbers  had  changed  in  the  actual  operation  of  that  road,  could 
you  tell  anything  about  what  was  the  average  payment  to  the 
men  on  that  road? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  would  not  want  to,  and  it  has  nothing  to  do 
with  the  average  rate  or  the  average  price.    If  you  wiU  take — 

Mr.  Sheean :  Let  me  ask  you  this :  Has  it  anything  to  do 
with  the  average  of  what  the  company  pays,  or  the  average 
money  the  man  receives  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  It  shows  the  exact  average  rate  that  the  man 
receives,  but  not  what  the  men  receive. 

The  Chairman:  We  will  take  an  adjournment  until  10 
o  'clock  tomorrow  morning. 

(Whereupon,  at  5  o'clock  P.  M.,  Monday,  December  7, 1914, 
an  adjournment  was  taken  until  10  o'clock  A.  M.,  Tuesday,  De- 
cember 8,  1914.) 


567 


IN  THE  MATTER  OF  THE 

ARBITRATION 
hetiveen  the 
WESTERN  RAILWAYS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 
ENGINEERS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD    OF    LOCOMOTIVE    FIRE- 
MEN AND  ENGINEMEN 
under  the  Act  approved  July  15,  1913,  by  agree- 
ment dated  August  3,  1914. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  December  8,  1914. 

Met  i)ursuant  to  adjoiuiiment  at  10  o'clock  A.  M. 
Present:    Arbitrators  and  parties  as  before. 

W.  S.  CARTER  was  recalled  for  further  examination,  and, 
having  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

The  Chairman:     Proceed  with  the  witness. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  will  you  kindly  turn  to  page  562 
of  the  printed  transcri])t  of  yesterday's  proceedings.  About 
the  middle  of  the  page  I  asked  this  question: 

"Well,  these  comparative  tables  are  all  made  to  compare 
only  with  the  wages  of  men  who  work  all  of  the  time  on  hours." 

The  answer  given  by  you  a})pears  as  follows : 

"No,  sir.  I  will  try  to  state  it  distinctly,  so  that  there  shall 
be  no  misunderstanding. 

"These  rates  quoted  in  this  tal)le  for  engineers  and  fire- 
men are  the  rates  aid  by  railroads  when  Engineers  and  Fire- 
men are  working  on  the  hourly  basis,  or  when  the  freight  trains 
equal  or  exceed  a  rate  of  s])eed  of  ten  miles  an  hour." 

Mr.  Carter:  That  was  an  error,  and  I  have  it  corrected  in 
my  copy. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  should  be— 


566 

Mr.  Carter:  Wlicii  tliey  do  not  exceed  ten  miles  an  hour. 
I  liave  tliat  marked  to  read  into  tlie  record  later  on  as  a  cor- 
rection. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  the  tahles  that  you  ])repared,  or  the 
tables  shown  in  this  ex]iil)it,  are  api^licable  by  way  of  compari- 
son only  in  the  case  where  the  men  are  i)aid  on  the  hourly  ])asis, 
or  where  the  si)eed  is  not  ,a:reater  than  ten  miles  ])ei-  hour? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  so,  in  the  comparisons  tiiat  you  make, 
where  the  i)ay  for  twelve  hours  is  set  out,  if  in  that  twelve  hours 
a  man  ran  160  miles,  it  would  be  1.6  times  the  rate  set  forth 
instead  of  1.2  times  the  rate  that  you  set  out  in  your  table? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  rate  would  l)e  33M{  per  cent  higher.  For 
twelve  hours,  160  miles,  he  would  get  paid  for  160  miles,  or  the 
equivalent  of  16  hours.    That  would  be  33Mi  per  cent  more. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  ex})lained  yesterday  the  difference  l)e- 
tween  average  rates  and  average  earnings.  Is  it  a  fact  that 
in  the  exhibit  you  ])repared  yesterday,  in  the  columns  ''Rate  of 
wages  per  hour,"  those  are  the  average  rates  as  distinguished 
from  the  average  earnings? 

^fr.  Carter:     On  what  page  is  this? 

Mr.  Sheean:     In  any  of  the  exhibits. 

Mr.  Carter:     Table'?? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Table  7. 

Mr.  Carter:     Will  you  ask  the  question  again? 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  each  of  these  columns  headed  "Rate  of 
wages"  tlie  extension  there  made  is  the  rate  as  distinguished 
from  the  earnings. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Where  you  pointed  out  that  there  was  a  dis- 
tinction l)etween  the  average  rate  and  the  average  earnings. 

Mr.  Carter:  Tlie  rate  and  the  earnings  would  be  equiva- 
lent, or  1  might  say  representative  of  each  other,  so  long  as  the 
speed  of  the  freight  train  does  not  exceed  ten  miles  per  hour. 

Mr.  She<'an:  Well,  the  manner  in  which  your  tables  are 
made  up,  where  you  reduce  them  to  averages,  w-onld  be  by  way 
of  exaggerated  illustration  that  if  one  engine  took  a  $4  rate  and 
999  engines  took  a  $6  rate,  you  would  show  the  average  rate 
as  $5? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  the  average  of  rates. 


'k    k     K  %    «    •    •  X^ 


569 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  throughout  all  of  these  averages,  they 
are  made  up  on  that  basis? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  but  you  will  understand,  by  reading 
the  descriptive  matter  that  begins  on  page  3,  that  I  do  not 
hesitate  to  criticise  this  method  of  reaching  averages. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  if  you  will  please  turn  to  Table  7, 
which  I  believe  you  said  was  the  first  one  of  the  basic  tables  in 
the  exhibit,  I  note  that  on  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe 
you  have  set  out  the  rates  on  the  different  divisions  of  that 
road.  Without  going  into  the  detail  of  those  different  divisions, 
it  is  a  fact,  is  it  not,  Mr.  Carter,  that  the  classifications  and  the 
rates  on  these  different  divisions  have  been  separately  nego- 
tiated by  the  employes  on  those  divisions'? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  am  not  familiar  with  what  was  said  at  the 
conferences  that  led  to  this  arrangement. 

Mr,  Sheean:  But  you  do  know  as  a  matter  of  fact  that 
one  general  chairman  negotiates  for  one  of  these  divisions  and 
another  general  chairman  for  another? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir.  They  have  one  local  chairman  for 
each  division  of  the  engineers  or  lodge  of  the  firemen,  but 
collectively  on  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  Eastern  and 
Western  lines,  they  have  one  general  chairman. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  west 
of  Albuquerque,  the  rates  there  are  negotiated  by  the  same 
men  as  those  between  Albuquerque? 

Mr.  Carter:  We  do  not  consider  that  as  a  different  divi- 
sion of  the  Santa  Fe  proper.  We  consider  that  as  a  different 
railroad.  It  has  a  dift'erent  schedule,  and  different  officers  nego- 
tiate the  schedules.  Mr.  Wells  has  charge  of  the  matters  west 
of  Albuquerque  and  his  part  of  the  road  is  known  as  the 
''Coast  Lines." 

Mr.  Sheean:  These  classifications  of  engines,  designated 
either  by  number  or  otherwise,  have  all  been  the  result  of  nego- 
tiations between  the  men  and  the  managing  officers  upon-  the 
different  roads? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  you 
called  attention  to  the  fact  that  there  were,  I  think  you  said, 
only  four,  five  or  six  different  classifications  there? 

Mr.  Carter :     Groups. 


570 

Mr.  Sheean:     Groups! 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  tliero  are  six  groups,  plus  a  special  rate 
on  an  0-2  and  M-1  engine. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  those  groups  of  engines,  either  designated 
by  letter  or  by  number,  they  have  taken  a  certain  rate  in  pursu- 
ance of  tlie  agreement  reached  between  the  men  on  tliat  road 
and  the  managing  officers  of  tliat  road? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes, 

Mr.  Sheean :  Your  cUissitication,  as  proposed  here,  would 
introduce  a  larger  number  of  classifications  of  engines  than  now 
appears  in  the  Burlington  schedules. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  remember  how  many  classifications 
we  have.    Twelve,  it  has  been  suggested. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  would,  as  shown  by  your  other  exhibits, 
create  a  spread  between  these  engines  which  the  men  have  now 
agreed  upon  with  the  management,  as  taking  the  same  rate; 
some  of  these  classifications  shown  on  this  page  would  be  thrown 
into  one  rate,  and  separated  from  others  as  to  which  they  now 
take  the  same  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  there  is  no  question  but  what  they 
are  trying  to  change  existing  agreements  and  settlements  on 
descrijitions  of  engines.  I  am  quite  sure  the  men  who  nego- 
tiated that  schedule  on  the  Chicago,  Burlingion  &  Quincy  Eail- 
road  would  gladly  make  the  change.  I  mean  to  say,  it  is  not 
with  any  reluctance  that  they  have  made  this  proposition  of 
weight  on  drivers  as  a  basis  of  pay  for  engineers  and  firemen. 

I  want  to  call  attention  to  the  fact  that,  np  until  1910,  wage 
schedules  were  negotiated  between  the  officers  of  a  company 
and  the  committee  representing  the  men,  entirely  independent 
of  what  might  occur  on  another  road.  But,  in  1910,  the  first 
settlement  of  that  year  was  made  by  arbitration  for  the  firemen. 
Immediately  thereafter,  some  of  our  men  wanted  changes.  They 
wanted  to  improve  on  the  arbitration.  I  mean  after  the  expira- 
tion of  the  arbitration  award  they  wanted  to  change  the  rates, 
improve  the  rates;  and  I  think  the  usual  reply  was,  ''The 
wages  that  j^ou  are  now  paid  were  fixed  in  a  concerted  move- 
ment, and  they  will  have  to  stay  that  way  until  they  are  changed 
by  a  concerted  movement." 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  the  basis  as  to  which  uni- 
formity was  established  in  1910,  l>oth  for  the  Engineers  and 


571 

Firemen  and  the  uniform  minimum  of  weights  on  drivers,  is 
now  215,000  pounds,  isn't  it?  That  is  the  only  basis  that  is 
uniform  among  weights,  as  to  weights  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  has  to  be  a  Compound  engine  that  has  a 
weight  of  225,000  pounds  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Sheean:     215,000  pounds. 

Mr.  Carter:  215,000  pounds  on  drivers,  that  only  refers 
to  a  Compound  engine,  as  I  remember  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  is,  both  as  to  engineers  and  firemen, 
in  the  western  territory,  uniformity  beginning  at  215,000 
pounds  weight  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Carter :     Well,  and  ending  there. 

Mr.  Sheean:    What  is  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  And  ending  there;  beginning  and  ending 
there. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  isn't  it  engines  weighing  more  than 
215,000  pounds  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Carter:     You  will  find  special  rates  for  those. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that  rate,  Mr.  Carter,  and  that  basis  of 
engines  Aveighing  more  than  215,000  pounds,  is  now  the  only 
uniform  basis  for  both  engineers  and  firemen  in  the  Western 
territory? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  misunderstand  the  language 
of  the  award.  Notwithstanding,  that  the  award  said  that  on 
simple  locomotives  with  cylinders  24  inches  or  more  in  diameter, 
and  compound  locomotives,  weighing  215,000  pounds  or  more 
on  drivers,  the  rate  shall  be  $3.75,  I  think  that  that  language 
does  not  convey  the  true  intent,  for  immediately  thereafter 
compound  engines  of  the  Mallet  type  have  a  rate  of  $4,  so  there 
is  a  conflict  right  there.    It  does  not  really  mean  what  it  says. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  I  am  getting  at,  Mr.  Carter,  is  that 
below  this  weight  of  215,000  pounds  on  drivers,  both  for  engi- 
neers and  firemen,  in  Western  territory,  there  has  been  left 
to  the  management,  and  to  the  several  roads,  the  negotiation 
of  the  lower  class  of  engines,  as  to  rates  and  classifications? 

Mr.  Carter:  Until  the  1910  Joint  Movement,  and,  since 
that  time,  I  think  you  will  find  no  railroad  that  will  consent  to 
negotiate  with  engineers  and  firemen  independent  of  a  move- 
ment like  this. 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  concerted  movement  of  1910,  both  as  to 


572 

engineers  and  tiienieii,  left  to  the  several  roads  the  classifica- 
tion and  the  rates  helow  tliis  wcif^lit  of  215,000  pounds  on 
drivers? 

Mr.  Carter:  T  woidd  not  say  it  that  way.  No,  sir,  I  don't 
tliink  tliey  left  it  to  the  roads  at  all,  because  the  increase  granted 
the  firemen  and  engineers  was  a  special  movement  on  different 
characters  of  engines.  For  instance,  the  firemen  received  a  15 
cents  increase  in  1910  on  all  i)assenger  engines,  regardless  of 
fuel,  and  on  all  freight  engines  using  oil  as  a  fuel,  and  then  the 
firemen,  on  coal-burning  engines,  got  15  cents  additional;  that 
is,  they  got  a  raise  of  30  cents ;  and  there  was  nothing  said  at 
any  time  in  the  negotiations,  until  after  the  award  was  ren- 
dered, as  to  why  the  basis  should  be  changed.  After  the  award 
was  rendered  and  it  appeared  to  the  railroads  that  this  pay  of 
$3.75  on  engines  of  certain  cylinder  dimensions  was  costing 
them  more  money  than  if  it  was  on  weights  on  drivers,  they 
innnediately  protested  against  the  bases  of  fixing  firemen's 
wages  on  these  different  roads,  and  I  am  quite  sure  that  right 
then  and  there  our  committee  said,  ''Well,  then,  we  believe  it 
best  that  all  of  these  wages  should  be  fixed  upon  the  same  basis, ' ' 
and  I  am  quite  sure  that  they  were  convinced  by  the  argimient 
of  the  Managers '  Committee  that  what  we  are  doing  here  today 
was  not  only  the  right  thing  to  do,  but  the  thing  that  the  Mana- 
gers' Committee  wanted  us  to  do. 

Mr.  Slieoan :     It  has  not  been  done,  as  a  matter  of  fact. 

Mr.  Carter :     We  are  hoping  that  it  will  be  done  here. 

Mr.  Slieean:  That  is  what  I  was  trying  to  make  clear,  that 
at  the  present  time  the  situation  is  that  below  215,000  pounds 
on  drivers  there  is  no  uniform  basis  among  the  different  rail- 
roads for  classifying  rates  of  pay  or  weights  on  drivers? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  don't  think  there  is. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But,  at  215,000  pounds  or  over,  there  is,  both 
as  to  engineers  and  firemen,  by  reason  of  the  concerted  move- 
ment, a  starting  point  at  215,000  pounds  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir,  it  is  not  a  starting  point ;  it  is  simply 
a  rate  for  one  class  of  engines,  and  the  Western  movement  got 
more  money  for  engines  weighing  more  than  that  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  not  technical  and  did  not  intend  to  imply 
anything  by  the  use  of  the  words  "starting  point" ;  but  there  is 
a  line  at  215,000  pounds  on  drivers  which  is  found  uniformly 


W."."/  A  h,  ^  »■«-»  »-»  J 


573 

in  the  schedules  of  the  roads  which  were  parties  to  tlie  Western 
concerted  movement  of  1910. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  would  not  want  to  call  it  a  line.  There  is  a 
special  rate,  as  I  quoted  just  now,  which  is  uniform;  it  is  not 
a  line ;  it  is  not  a  starting  point,  nor  is  it  a  quitting-  point ;  and 
I  may  explain  that  there  was  an  effort  made  to  place  the  same 
rate  on  the  compound  engine  as  was  placed  on  the  simple  engine. 
As  you  know  and  as  is  well  known,  a  compound  engine  has  two 
kinds  of  cylinders ;  the  high  pressure  cylinder  is  very  small  and 
the  low  pressure  cylinder  is  very  large;  therefore,  we  had  to 
describe  that  engine  in  some  way  differently  from  the  simple 
engine  and  yet  accomplish  the  same  purpose.  It  was  thought 
that  where  simple  engines  had  cylinders  24  inches  or  over  in 
diameter,  the}'^  would  be  about  equal  to  compound  engines  weigh- 
ing about  215,000  pounds  on  drivers.  It  is  not  a  line,  it  is  not 
a  starting  point ;  it  is  just  one  specific  rate. 

Mr.  Slieean :  Well,  that  rate  is  on  engines  weighing  215,000 
pounds  or  more  on  drivers! 

Mr.  Carter:     Compound  engines. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Compound  engines  weighing  215,000  pounds 
or  more  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Carter:  And  yet  it  does  not  mean  what  it  says,  be- 
cause, on  some  roads  they  have  other  compound  engines  weigh- 
ing more  that  get  more  money,  that  is,  on  the  Mallets.  All 
Mallets  are  compound.     It  does  not  say  what  it  means. 

Mr.  Slieean:  That  215,000  pounds  is  used,  w^hatever  it 
means,  it  is  used  uniformly  for  both  engineers  and  firemen  in 
the  Western  territory. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  think  it  applies  to  engineers,  but  it 
does  apply  to  firemen. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  as  a  part  of  the  concerted  movement  of 
1910  with  the  engineers,  there  is  a  reference  to  215,000  pounds 
on  drivers  or  above  that,  as  taking  a  special  rate,  is  there  not! 

Mr.  Carter:     What  is  the  question? 

(Question  repeated  by  the  reporter.) 

Mr.  Carter:  I  will  read  the  rates  effective  December  24, 
1910,  not  by  arbitration  but  through  mediation.  This  is  the 
agreement  reached  by  the  Managers'  Committee  and  the  Com- 
mittee of  Engineers.     This  is  in  freight  service: 


574 

"For  en«i:iiu'ers  in  t'lvight  service  an  increase  of  40  cents 
per  100  miles  or  less,  ten  hours  or  less  (except  on  engines  weigh- 
ing 2ir),0()0  i)onn<ls  or  over  on  drivers  and  on  engines  of  the 
Mallet  type),  (c)  For  engineers  in  tlirough  freight  or  passen- 
ger service,  on  engines  other  than  Mallet  type,  weighing  215,000 
pounds  and  over  on  drivers,  a  differential  of  25  cents  per  day 
higher  than  the  next  highest  rate  in  the  same  class  of  service 
on  each  particular  road." 

You  will  understand  hy  that,  that  it  was  not  a  standard- 
ization of  rates  at  all.  If  a  diflerent  late  was  in  effect  on  each 
road  for  that  weight  of  engine,  that  engine  would  take  25  cents 
higher.  For  th<'  firemen  it  was  different,  they  taking  $3.75; 
but  the  engineers  only  got  25  cents  more  than  what  was  paid 
at  that  time;  it  may  have  been  more  or  less — on  some  roads 
it  may  have  been  a  great  .deal  more  tlian  on  other  roads.  Now, 
it  goes  on  to  say: 

"For  engines  in  all  classes  of  service  and  Mallet  type  en- 
gines weighing  275,000  ])ounds  or  less  on  drivers,  a  differential 
of  75  cents  per  day  higlicr  than  the  highest  rate  paid  on  other 
classes  of  engines  weighing  less  than  215,000  pounds  on  drivers, 
and  for  engineers  on  Mallet  type  engines  weighing  over  275,000 
pounds  on  drivers  a  differential  of  $1  per  day  over  the  highest 
rate  paid  on  other  types  of  engines  w^eighing  less  than  215,000 
pounds  on  drivers,  in  the  same  class  of  service,  for  each  par- 
ticular road." 

There  again,  they  did  not  fix  a  Mallet  rate,  they  simply 
fixed  a  differential,  and  wliatever  the  Mallet  rate  w^as  on  a  par- 
ticular road,  they  had  $1  more  added  to  the  rate,  and  the  rate 
on  that  road  may  have  been  ten  per  cent  higher  than  on  any 
other  road.  It  did  not  change  those  rates.  To  show  how  the 
firemen's  award  did  not  mean  exactly  what  it  said,  this  Mallet 
rate  quoted  here  is  for  compound  engines,  and  Mallet  engines 
are  compound  engines ;  therefore,  that  other  rate  does  not  mean 
what  it  says  at  all.  A  Mallet  weighs  more  than  215,000  pounds 
on  drivers  and  yet  it  says  ''compound  engines"  and  does  pay  a 
higher  rate  than  $3.75. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Since  1910,  on  all  the  roads  in  the  West, 
parties   to   the  concerted   movement,  with   the   engineers   and 


0/0 

parties  to  the  concerted  movenieiit  with  the  firemen,  215,000 
pounds  on  drivers  is  made  use  of  in  fixing  some  rate  for  that 
particular  road! 

Mr,  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  215,000  pounds  on  drivers  is  the  only 
uniform  weight  on  drivers  applicable  to  all  railroads  in  the 
Western  territory  at  the  present  time! 

Mr.  Carter:  As  stated  in  this  cross-examination,  that  is 
correct;  but  I  do  not  want  it  to  appear  that  that  is  a  starting 
point,  or  a  quitting  point,  or  a  line. 

Mr.  Nagel:     It  is  a  fact,  isn't  it! 

Mr.  Carter:  It  is  a  fact.  It  is  not  a  starting  point  or  any- 
thing else. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Suppose  we  call  it  what  we  like  and  accept 
it  as  a  fact. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Turning  to  Table  7,  Mr.  Carter,  in  your  col- 
umn 1907— 

Mr.  Carter :    What  page,  please  ? 

Mr.  Sheean :  Page  18,  where  it  begins  in  the  first  column 
headed  1907,  the  rates  there  extended  are  the  rates  which  were 
in  efifect  after  the  concerted  movement  of  1907  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  month  of  January,  1907,  how  much 
lower  than  the  rates  shown  in  this  column,  1907,  were  the  rates  of 
engineers  and  firemen  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  made  no  investigation,  but  we  can  file 
the  agreements  of  1907,  which  will  show  exactly  what  it  is. 

Mr.  Sheean :  No.  Mr.  Carter,  I  do  not  intend  either  to  ask 
that  there  shall  be  that  much  work,  or  that  you  should — 

Mr.  Carter :     It  is  not  work ;  it  is  a  pleasure. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Or  that  you  should  be  held  down  to  exact  per- 
centages. All  I  want  is  the  fact  that  in  January,  1907,  the  rates 
then  in  effect  were  considerably  lower  than  the  rates  which  you 
have  extended  in  the  column,  1907. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  know  whether  it  would  be  *'consider- 
ably"  or  not.  I  think  they  were  not  uniform.  In  some  instances 
it  might  have  been  considerable,  and  in  others  hardly  worth 
considering. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Without  attempting  to  average  percentages, 
can  you  tell  us  approximately  what  the  rates  were  in  January, 


576 

1907,  as  compared  with  the  rates  which  followed  the  agreements 
in  the  concerted  movements  of  1907 ! 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  here  the  memorandum  of  agreement  with 
the  General  ^lanagers'  Association  of  lines  west  of  Chicago,  ef- 
fective February  1, 1907,  for  Engineers.  I  had  better  read  their 
proposal  or  request. 

"One  hundred  miles  or  less,  eight  hours  or  less,  will  consti- 
tute a  day  in  freight  service ;  overtiiue  in  freight  service  to  be  com- 
puted and  jiaid  for  on  a  basis  of  twelve  and  one-half  miles  per 
hour." 

Now,  here  was  the  agreement : 

"In  lieu  of  the  proposal  as  above  stated,  there  shall  be  an 
increase  over  rates  of  pay  of  engineers  in  effect  January  1,  1907, 
on  all  classes  of  engines  in  freight  service,  of  40  cents  per  day 
of  ten  hours  or  less,  one  hundred  miles  or  less ;  no  change  to  be 
made  in  the  method  of  computing  overtime.  This  advance  is  not 
to  apply  to  engineers  of  freight  engines  working  on  a  basis  of 
twelve  and  one-half  miles  per  hour. ' ' 

Therefore,  so  far  as  eight  hour  rates  are  concerned,  it  was 
not  "considerable,"  and  it  did  not  apply.  Now,  I  can  read  from 
the  Firemen's,  if  you  like. 

Mr.  Sheean :     If  you  will  tell  us  about  what — 

Mr.  Carter:  I  would  rather  read  it,  because  I  want  it  ac- 
curate. 

Mr.  Sheean:     All  right,  Mr.  Carter. 

Mr.  Carter:  Here  is  the  agreement  of  1910  for  the  Engi- 
neers. 

Mr.  Sheean :  No,  I  Avanted  the  starting  point  in  1907,  the 
time  that  the  rates  were  changed  in  1907,  and  about  what  the 
change  was. 

Mr.  Carter:  Would  you  like  to  have  me  file  them?  I  have 
them  readv  to  file,  if  vou  like. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  think  w^e  can  shorten  the  record  if  you  will 
just  give  us  that  one  item. 

Mr.  Carter :  This  is  the  memorandum  of  agreement  between 
the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen  and  a 
committee  of  General  Managers  of  Railways  representing  the  fol- 


577 

lowing  named  roads,  wliicli  are  stated.    It  was  signed  April  8, 
1907.    The  first  article  reads : 

' '  There  shall  be  an  increase  over  the  rates  of  pay  of  firemen 
in  effect  January  1, 1907,  on  all  classes  of  engines  in  through  and 
irregular  freight,  local  freight  and  mixed  train  service,  of  25 
cents  per  day  of  ten  hours  or  less,  one  hundred  miles  or  less,  no 
change  to  be  made  in  the  method  of  computing  overtime;  this 
advance  not  to  apply  to  firemen  working  on  a  basis  of  twelve  and 
one-half  miles  per  hour." 

It  is  practically  the  same  in  its  application  as  the  Engineers '. 
It  does  not  equalize  wages,  nor  it  does  not  give  the  same  increase 
to  all  men. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  your  Exhibit  No.  7,  beginning  at 
page  18,  is  made  to  include  only  ten-hour  roads,  I  think  you 
explained  yesterday. 

Mr.  Carter :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  in  the  last  two  columns,  or  rather  in 
the  next  to  the  last  column,  "Increase  1914  over  1907,"  if  you 
carried  back  the  basis  of  pay  to  January  1, 1907,  in  this  compari- 
son, the  base  which  you  would  have  on  January  1, 1907,  would  be 
25  cents  a  day  lower  for  Firemen  and  40  cents  a  day  lower  for 
Engineers  than  the  base  from  which  you  start  here? 

Mr.  Carter :     Than  the  rates  shown  under  1907. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  from  January  1,  1907,  to  January  1, 
1914,  or  January  1,  1915,  there  w^ould  be  this  greater  percentage 
of  increase  than  is  shown  in  this  column,  in  these  two  respects 
which  you  have  just  explained. 

Mr.  Carter :     There  is  no  question  about  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  if  you  turn  to  Table  8,  please,  Mr. 
Carter,  which  is  the  next  of  your  basic  tables. 

Mr.  Carter:    What  page,  please? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Page  60.  Page  59  it  begins,  Mr.  Carter. 
The  rates  in  the  various  trades  shown  here  are  the  imion  rates 
at  the  cities  designated,  are  they? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  just  like  our  rates  are  union  rates. 

Mr.  Sheean:  These  rates  in  the  other  trades  are  taken 
from  sixteen  cities? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  it  was  sixteen  cities. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  those  are  the  larger  cities  where  indus- 
try in  these  lines  is  most  intensive? 


578 

Mr.  Carter:  I  presume  so.  You  understand  that  they  are 
the  only  cities  rei)orted  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics  in 
Bulletins  131  and  143. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  territory  covered  by  tlie  railroads 
here  and  as  to  which  this  extension  is  made,  there  are  probably 
three  hundred  or  more  terminals  of  the  various  railroads  repre- 
sented, are  there  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  rates  which  you  have  extended  here, 
are  the  rates  of  uniform  application  over  these  entire  systems? 

Mr.  Carter:     So  far  as  the  railroads  are  concerned. 

Mr.  Sheean:  For  comparison  with  the  rates  in  the  build- 
ing industries  in  these  cities  of  intensive  activity? 

Mr.  Carter :  AVell,  we  will  presume  it  is  intensive  activity. 
Some  of  them  are  awfully  dull  now. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes.  Do  you  know  of  any  schedule  in  any 
of  these  building  industries  where  there  is  a  provision  of  eight 
hours  or  less  entitling  these  men  to  a  day's  pay? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not;  no.  I  have  not  informed  myself 
upon  that  point. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  of  these  other  in- 
dustries having  the  provision  which  is  in  the  railroad  schedules, 
of  paying  for  a  day  where  less  than  a  day's  time  was  worked, 
or  is  the  hourly  rate  here  extended,  the  rate  per  hour  actually 
worked  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  it  is  the  rate  per  hour  actually 
worked,  but,  as  I  understand  it,  they  almost  invariably  make 
the  day. 

For  instance,  in  these  other  industries  there  is  a  certain 
hour  to  go  to  work,  when  the  whistle  blows.  They  are  supposed 
to  be  there  to  go  to  work,  they  are  supposed  to  work  until  the 
whistle  blows  again.  Then  they  take  their  luncheon,  and  the 
whistle  blows  again,  and  they  go  to  work  and  work  until  the 
whistle  blows  again,  when  they  quit.  I  think  you  will  find 
in  practically  all  of  these  industries,  that  that  is  the  practice. 
Men  are  not  called  in  other  industries,  and  then  relieved  perhaps 
in  two  hours,  as  they  would  be  in  railroading.  That  is,  they 
understand  they  are  to  get  a  day's  work  when  they  report. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  in  case  of  depression,  is  it  at 
all   unusual  in  these  industries  to   shorten  the  hours  of  the 


579 

day,  from  an  eight  hour  day  to  a  seven  hour,  to  a  six  hour,  or 
even  to  a  five  hour  day,  and  thereby  share  with  all  of  the 
employes  the  five  hours  per  day  that  they  work? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  in  practically  all  indus- 
tries, except  that  of  railroading,  that  when  there  is  a  depression 
in  business,  they  agree  among  themselves  to  share  the  burdens 
of  the  depression. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is,  a  shop  which  employs  eight  hundred 
men  on  an  eight  hour  basis,  instead  of  discharging  a  number  of 
them,  might  shorten  up  the  hours  of  work  per  day  and  distribute 
to  all  of  those  employes  six  hours'  pay  per  day? 

Mr.  Carter :     There  is  no  question  of  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  under  the  seniority  system  to  which  you 
adverted  yesterday,  that  practice  does  not  obtain  in  railroading, 
does  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr,  Sheean:  In  railroading,  the  number  of  men  who  are 
retained  upon  the  extra  board,  is  largely  in  the  hands  of  the 
employes  themselves,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  Ordinarily,  yes;  but  we  have  information  to 
the  effect,  and  I  think  it  will  be  presented  here  in  evidence,  that 
the  railroads  are  protesting  against  restoring  them  to  the  list, 
and  therefore  the  men  who  are  working  are  working  more  than 
they  want  to  work. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  in  case  the  men  who  are  assigned  to  a 
particular  class  of  service,  find  that  their  earnings  are  not  satis- 
factory to  them,  the  schedules  usually  contain  the  provision,  do 
they  not,  that  the  men  themselves  can  cause  that  board  to  be 
reduced  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     That  is  true. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  the  older  men  may  cause  the  younger 
men  to  drop  out  of  that  service,  and  thereby  keep  their  own 
earnings  up? 

Mr.  Carter :  Under  the  seniority  system,  it  guarantees  the 
oldest  men  to  earn  just  as  much  as  they  want  to  earn. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  this  seniority  system,  Mr.  Carter,  has 
been  the  growth  and  development  of  many  years  of  negotiations, 
has  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes;  I  think  we  stated  yesterday  why  the 
seniority  system  is  absolutely  necessary. 


580 

Mr.  Slu'caii :  Tt  is  a  system  that  the  mon  themselves  have 
fatliered,  and  tliat  tliey  liave  insisted  upon  and  still  insist  upon! 

Mr.  Carter:     There  is  no  question  of  tliat. 

Mr.  Slieean:  So  tliat  any  criticism,  if  there  was  any  criti- 
cism in  your  remarks  yesterday  concerning  that  system,  is  not 
directed  at  tlie  management  of  the  railroad  companies  for  giving 
assent  to  this  system  which  now  generally  obtains? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  the  criticism  yesterday  was  not  against 
seniority,  hut  against  the  causes  that  resulted  in  seniority. 

]\li-.  Sheean :  AVhere  the  men  are  employed,  and  a  certain 
numlxM-  assigned  to  doing  the  woi'k  on  a  particular  district,  and 
their  earnings  are  not  satisfactory,  that  board  must  be  reduced 
under  most  of  the  schedules,  upon  the  request  of  the  men,  must 
it  not  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Generally  speaking,  that  is  the  practice. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  any  dismissal  of  junior  men  is  ordi- 
narily done  at  the  request  of  the  men  themselves,  in  order  to 
keep  up  the  earnings  of  the  older  men? 

Mr.  Carter :  Ordinarily,  but  I  think  we  will  find  many  in- 
stances where  the  men  do  not  want  the  list  cut,  or  rather,  they 
want  men  put  back  on  the  list  and  the  minor  officers  refuse  to 
put  them  back,  and  this  forces  the  men  to  work  and  earn  more 
than  they  want  to  earn,  and  that  has  been  very  marked  since  this 
negotiation  began. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  mean  where  the  earnings  of  some  of 
the  men  on  particular  runs  are  more  than  they  want  to  earn? 

Mr.  Carter :  We  have  comnmnications  here  Avhich  lead  us 
to  believe  that  thev  have  made  grievances — I  don't  know  whether 

*  cry 

the  Board  understands  a  grievance,  it  is  a  complaint — made 
grievances  of  the  refusal  of  the  minor  officers  to  restore  men  to 
the  list,  so  they  would  not  have  to  work  so  hard,  make  so  many 
miles,  work  so  many  hours;  and  I  think  in  one  instance  our 
general  chairman  took  it  up,  although  I  do  not  know  what  suc- 
cess lie  has  had.  He  cannot  get  the  men  back  on  the  runs. 
They  are  earning  more  money  than  they  want  to  earn,  more 
than  they  should  earn,  and  more  than  they  are  physically  able. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Just  what  instances  can  you  give  us  of  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  thifik  we  will  present  that  at  length  in  the 
testimony. 

Mr.    Sheean:     All    right.     The    reduction    of    the    Board, 


T»ii"-""  ^  ^  k  h.%  I 


581 

though,  resulting  in  the  dismissal  of  men  to  which  you  adverted 
yesterday,  is  entirely  in  the  hands  of  the  men? 

Mr.  Carter:  Generally  speaking.  Whenever  the  men  in 
service  think  that  their  earnings  have  been  made  too  low,  they 
make  requests  for  the  board  to  be  cut;  that  is,  the  number  of 
extra  engineers  to  be  reduced,  or  the  number  in  the  pool  to  be 
reduced.  That  is  done  to  assure  them  a  guarantee  of  a  day's 
wages,  or  rather  a  month's  wages.  That  is  the  practice  under 
the  seniority  system,  which  I  must  confess  is  diametrically  op- 
posed to  the  practice  in  other  industries. 

You  Avill  understand,  however,  that  when  these  boards  are 
cut,  it  is  because  the  business  of  the  company  has  decreased 
so  that  there  is  not  enough  business  at  that  point  to  give  them 
all  a  fair  month 's  earnings,  and  therefore,  instead  of  dividing 
the  loss  of  earning  power  equally,  they  ask  that  the  youngest 
men  be  taken  off  the  list,  so  as  to  maintain  not  a  high  rate  of 
wages,  but  what  they  are  expected  to  earn. 

Now,  it  may  be  that  even  after  the  cutting  of  the  list,  a 
sudden  rush  of  business  would  require  every  man  to  do  a  great 
deal  more  work  than  is  usually  expected  of  one  man.  Ordi- 
narily, however,  the  railroads  add  to  the  list  so  as  to  relieve  the 
men  of  this  excessive  overwork.  It  is  very  peculiar.  It  is  a 
piece-work  system. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  that  piece-work  system,  Mr.  Carter,  the 
number  of  miles  to  be  run  on  a  single  trip  is  ordinarily  between 
terminals  well  established;  it  is  not  a  case  of  a  man  going  out 
and  running  as  far  as  he  wants  to,  or  making  any  number  of 
miles  that  he  wants  to,  is  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  runs  are  between  terminals  well  estab- 
lished, and  long  established? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  on  tlie  great  majority  of  roads,  the  men 
run  first  in  and  first  out? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  practically  on  all  roads. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Practically  all  roads? 

Mr.  Carter:  With  this  exception,  they  have  regularly  as- 
signed crews  to  make  certain  runs.  For  instance,  in  the  pas- 
senger service,  the  same  crew  may  make  the  same  trip,  and 
they  have  a  regular  leaving  time. 


582 

M  r.  Shccaii :  Now,  this  matter  of  the  hazard  of  uncertainty 
of  employment  to  which  you  adverted,  does  not  obtain  in  the  case 
of  assigned  crews,  does  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  would  if  they  put  another  man  in  the  serv- 
ice to  divide  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  in  case  of  two  trains  being  operated, 
they  have  three  crews  to  take  care  of  those  two  trains,  assigning 
three  crews  to  that  train? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes ;  sometimes  they  only  have  two  crews. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But,  even  then,  running  under  the  first  in,  first 
out,  rule,  those  three  crews  there  would  ordinarily,  on  an  assigned 
run,  earn  about  the  same  amount  of  money  during  the  month? 

Mr.  Carter :     That  is  the  expectation. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  in  the  assigned  passenger  trains,  or  what- 
ever assigned  trains  there  are,  there  is  ordinarily  no  uncertainty 
about  the  amount  of  money  that  the  engineer  and  fireman  will 
make  on  his  assigned  run? 

Mr.  Carter :  Ordinarily,  no,  but  understand  there  are  many 
exceptions. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  in  the  great  majority  of  cases  on  as- 
signed runs,  the  remuneration  of  both  Engineer  and  Fireman, 
from  month  to  month,  remains  the  same  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  It  should  be  the  same.  That  is  the  intention 
of  the  assignment;  but,  understand,  there  are  exceptions.  He 
may  not  go  out  on  his  own  run.  He  may  be  called  in  an  emer- 
gency for  some  other  run. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Don't  all  schedules  ordinarily  pro\dde  if  you 
want  an  assigned  man  for  another  run,  that  that  other  run  must 
guarantee  him  as  much  pay  as  if  he  had  remained  on  his  assign- 
ment ? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So,  if  he  is  called,  he  gets  what  his  regular 
assignment  would  pay,  or  more,  if  the  special  work  he  is  called 
for  earns  him  more  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  ordinarily  true,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Did  you  make  any  investigation,  Mr.  Carter, 
as  to  the  certainty  or  continuity  of  the  employment  in  any  of  these 


583 

other  trades,  as  to  how  many  weeks  a  year  these  different  lines 
of  employment  secures  full  time  ? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Sheean :  These  are  rates  extended  on  the  purely  hourly 
basis? 

Mr.  Carter :  Hourly  basis,  and  that  applies  to  the  Engineer 
who  may  not  earn  ten  dollars  in  any  one  month  for  a  period  of 
a  month.  It  applies  to  Firemen  who  may  only  make  one  trip 
in  a  month. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  it  does  not  apply  to  the  Fireman  who 
makes  his  pay  in  miles! 

Mr.  Carter:  It  does  not  apply  to  the  Fireman  when  the 
speed  of  the  train  is  ten  miles  or  more. 

Mr.  Sheean :  It  also  applies  to  the  bricklayer,  or  the  car- 
penter who  may  not  work  one  hour  a  month  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  Well,  he  would  have  to  work  the  hour  in  order 
to  get  the  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes,  but,  as  I  understood  you  yesterday,  these 
are  the  rates  which  are  shown  as  a  comparison  of  the  rates,  and 
not  of  the  earnings. 

Mr.  Carter :  It  is  a  comparison  of  the  rates,  and  has  nothing 
to  do  with  the  earnings. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  in  this  comparison  of  the  rates  derived 
from  these  bulletins  issued  by  the  United  States  Department  of 
Labor — 

Mr.  Carter :     Which  bulletin,  please ! 

Mr.  Sheean :  Bulletin  143.  Speaking  of  one  of  the  rates  as 
to  which  comparison  is  made,  and  referring  to  page  8  in  this 
bulletin,  it  is  said  concerning  the  rates  shown  for  bakers — first 
hands,  is  it  not,  that  ' '  the  increases  in  rates  of  wages  per  hour 
were  nearly  counterbalanced  by  the  reduction  of  working  hours 
per  week;  so  that  while  the  time  required  to  make  a  week's  earn- 
ings was  reduced,  the  income  per  week  would  be  but  slightly  in- 
creased, and  the  relative  rates  of  wages  per  full  week  in  1907  for 
this  occupation  were  97  per  cent  of  the  rates  of  wages  per  full 
week  in  19131" 

Mr.  Carter:  Pardon  me,  I  have  been  unable  to  catch  tliat. 
.    Mr.  Sheean :    At  the  top  of  page  9  of  Bulletin  143. 

Mr.  Carter :     I  have  it  now. 


584 

Mr.  Slieean:  I  correctly  read  tlio  statement  and  comment, 
(li.l  I  not? 

.Mr.  Carter:      I  was  not  loUowing  you,  but  1  know  you  did. 

;Mr.  Slieean:  Then  Table  8,  as  introduced  by  you,  does 
not  i)urport  to  show  in  any  manner  tlie  earnino^s  for  any  ])ar- 
ticular  period  of  time? 

Mr.  Carter:     Kxcept  one  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Except  one  hour;  and  tliat  is  assuming;-  that 
one  hour  was  actually  worked? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  Pardon  me  for  volunteering  something. 
I  think  you  will  find  that  it  has  been  the  policy  of  employes  in 
most  of  the  industries  to  re<luce  their  hours  of  em])l()yment 
rather  than  to  increase  their  earnings.  F  think  you  will  find 
that  tliev  earn  as  much  oi-  more  in  many  instances  for  working 
an  eight-hour  day  than  they  did  when  working  a  ten-hour  dav; 
but  it  luis  been  the  policy  of  employes  in  most  of  the  leading 
industries  outside  of  the  railroad  business  to  i-educe  liours  of 
labor  rather  than  to  increase  their  earnings. 

I  haye  heard  it  said  that  a  printer  today  makes  a  great 
deal  more  money  working  eight  hours  than  he  used  to  make 
under  the  old  ])iece-work  system  working  fourteen  hours,  on 
the  morning  ])apers.  T'nderstand,  it  was  piece-work,  so  much 
per  thousand  ems,  and  a  man  could  c(mie  around  before  noon 
if  he  so  desired,  and  go  on  his  alley,  go  to  liis  case  and  start 
setting  type,  and  he  could  work  until  the  last  man  was  out  of 
the  office  at  two  o'clock  next  morning,  when  the  foreman  said 
he  would  haye  to  close  the  forms. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  building  trades  particularly,  Mr. 
Carter,  the  conditions  of  weather  and  various  other  considera- 
tions alYect  the  ability  of  ix'oplc  in  those  lines  to  kee])  steady 
employment,  do  they  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not  think  it  is  expected  of  men,  in  other 
lines  of  em])loyment  than  railroading,  to  be  exposed  to  the  in- 
clenK'Ucy  of  the  weathei-. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  when  tliey  are  not  exposed,  their  op- 
portunity to  earn  ceases '! 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  but  if  a  railroad  man  wants  to  lay  otf 
when  the  thermometer  is  20  degrees  below  zero,  at  two  o'clock 
in  the  morning,  he  will  ])robably  have  to  go  or  lose  his  job. 

Mr.  Sheean :     The  matter  of  laying  off  in  railroad  practice 


k     »   «     »    r-r  M    tt-Wi 


585 

is  much  more  common  than  it  is  in  any  other  line  of  industry, 
is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  not. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Do  you  know,  or  have  you  made  any  inves- 
tigation as  to  how  frequently  men  will  of  their  own  volition 
in  railroad  service — engineers  and  firemen — lay  off  two  days, 
three  days  or  ten  days? 

Mr.  Carter:  Unfortunately  for  the  younger  men  they  do 
not  lav  off  enouuh. 

Mr.  Sheean:  They  do  not  lay  off  enough,  and  the  older 
men  ordinarily,  or  all  the  men  ordinarily  are  permitted  to  lay 
off  such  length  of  time  as  they  wish,  provided  an  extra  board 
of  sufficient  size  is  there  to  do  the  company's  business? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  it  is  convenient,  and  does  not  interfere 
with  the  handling  of  traffic,  and  the  notice  of  a  desire  to  lay  off 
is  filed  in  a  formal  manner  as  prescribed,  there  is  very  seldom 
any  difficulty  in  being  released. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  matter  of  having  an  extra  board  of 
sufficient  size  and  sufficient  elasticity  to  take  care  reasonably 
of  the  company's  business  is  ordinarily  in  the  control  of  the 
men? 

Mr.  Carter:     Ordinarily,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  have  made  no  investigation  as  to  what 
either  the  weekly  or  monthly  or  yearly  earnings  of  any  of  the 
people  in  these  trades  may  be,  which  you  have  enumerated  in 
Table  8? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  if  you  will  take  Table  8  and  consider 
it  in  conjunction  with  Table  9,  you  will  find  that  a  bricklayer, 
at  the  rate  named  in  Table  8,  works  the  number  of  hours  for  a 
week  named  in  Table  9.  The  bricklayer  works  44  hours  a  week, 
in  the  city  of  Chicago,  at  the  rate  of  75  cents  an  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes,  but  the  distinction  that  you  made  be- 
tween average  rates  and  average  earnings  obtains  as  to  Table  8 
as  well  as  to  your  other  tables,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  There  is  no  effort  to  compare  the  earnings. 
I  do  not  know  that  there  is  any  method  of  comparing  them. 
The  government  in  all  its  researches  has  never  been  able  to 
ascertain  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  is  a  movement,  the  purpose  of  whic^ 
is  to  affect  earnings  rather  than  to  affect  rates.     You  are  not 


586 

interested  in  rates  tliat  do  not  produce  money  to  the  men,  are 

you? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  but  if  you  will  give  the  men  a  high  enough 
rate,  they  will  take  care  of  their  earnings. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  all  of  the  tables  which  you  have  pre- 
pared here  merely  reflect  rates? 

Mr.  Carter:     Rates. 

Mr.  Sheean:    And  no  effort  is  made  to  reflect  earnings? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  if  you  will  read  on  the  first  page  of  the 
table,  the  first  word  is  ''rates,"  and  if  you  will  read  the  intro- 
ductory pages,  you  will  see  how  particular  I  am  to  confine  the 
entire  investigation  to  rates.  We  have  one,  however — without 
anticipating  the  future — that  has  to  do  with  earnings,  not  of 
employes  in  other  industries,  but  of  employes  on  engines. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Speaking  generally,  Mr.  Carter,  as  to  your 
Table  9,  it  is  your  understanding  that,  in  these  other  lines  of 
industry,  the  employer  ordinarily  has  the  right  to  determine  the 
actual  hours  of  labor  of  the  employe,  and  to  pay  for  those  hours? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  I  do  not  think  he  has.  I  think  it  is 
agreed,  by  mutual  agreement  between  the  employes  and  employ- 
ers in  an  industry,  that  they  will  work  an  eight  hour  day.  They 
sometimes  agree  that  they  will  work  only  four  hours  on  Satur- 
day ;  and  if  business  should  be  very  much  depressed  as  in  a  rail- 
road shop,  it  is  not  unusual — at  least,  I  do  not  think  it  is  unusual — 
for  the  machinists  and  the  boiler  makers  in  that  shop,  instead 
of  laying  off  a  man,  to  reduce  the  hours  of  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Take  the  building  industry  here,  or  any  of 
these  schedules,  and  the  man  reports  for  work  at  eight  o'clock 
this  morning.    If  he  works  imtil  ten,  how  much  is  he  paid? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  must  confess  that  I  have  not  investigated 
that,  but  it  is  my  opinion  that  such  a  case  would  be  unusual. 
I  do  not  know  of  any  people  who  have  more  fixed  hours  for 
working  than  men  in  other  industries  that  are  quoted  here.  For 
instance,  when  a  man  goes  to  work  at  a  certain  hour  in  the  morn- 
ing, he  has  every  reason  to  anticipate  that  unless  something 
imusual  transpires,  he  is  going  to  have  a  day's  work. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Is  there  any  provision  in  any  of  these  sched- 
ules, in  any  of  these  crafts  that  you  have  ever  seen,  similar  to 
ox  Jike  the  provision  which  engineers  and  firemen  have,  whereby 
in  those  crafts  tliey  must  pay  a  full  day.? 


587 

Mr.  Carter:  I  cannot  say,  unfortunately,  for  after  I  had 
secured  hundreds  of  these  agreements  for  the  purpose  of  present- 
ing them  I  found  I  did  not  have  time  to  read  them  before  the 
arbitration  began. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  have  you  ever  heard  of  a  provision  in 
any  of  these  crafts  whereby  the  eight-liour  day  is  an  eight-hour 
or  less  day? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  not ;  but  I  think  the  rules  require,  when 
the  work  is  there,  for  the  man  to  have  a  full  day's  work.  You 
have  got  to  guarantee  him  a  full  day 's  work.  Now,  I  do  not  mean 
if  some  catastrophe  should  occur,  that  they  would  pay  him  for  his 
time  while  he  was  off  duty. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Your  Table  10,  Mr.  Carter,  at  page  106;  the 
heading  there  is  '^  Rates  of  wages  per  hour  and  earnings  for 
continuous  service."  Now,  is  the  distinction  you  have  made 
between  rates  and  earnings  carried  through  Table  10? 

Mr.  Carter :  Purposely,  There  can  be  no  question  but  what 
engineers  and  firemen  in  switching  service,  are  on  an  hourly 
basis  at  all  times,  and  their  earnings  may  be  easily  determined 
by  knowing  the  hours  they  work.  Now,  you  will  understand  that 
this  table  here  was  prepared  after  Table  4,  which  appears  on  page 
12.  On  page  12,  Table  4,  there  was  an  effort  to  compare  the  earn- 
ings of  all  men  in  different  trades  with  the  earnings  of  engineers 
and  firemen,  for  continuous  hourly  service.  Then,  subsequent 
to  the  preparation  of  that  table,  I  found  time  to  go  into  the  switch 
engine  matter.  Now,  I  prepared  this  table  so  you  could  compare 
it  to  Table  4.  For  instance,  we  have  here  what  the  switch  engi- 
neer would  earn  if  he  was  required  to  work  eight  hours  or  ten 
hours,  or  twelve  hours,  or  fourteen  hours,  or  sixteen  hours,  and 
that  may  be  compared  with  the  building  trades  in  Chicago,  in 
Table  4,  to  show  who  would  earn  the  most. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  what  they  would  earn  if  there  was 
operation  in  this  manner  in  these  trades  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir.  I  think,  however,  that  the  only 
reason  that  the  switch  engine  men  do  not  insist  that  they  be 
relieved  at  the  end  of  eight  hours  is  because  their  rate  is  so 
low  that  they  cannot  make  a  living  at  it;  and  I  think,  if  you 
will  compare  those  rates  with  other  people  who  work  eight 
hours,  you  will  see  the  great  difference;  you  will  find  that  a 
switch  engineer  would  have  to  work  many  more  hours  in  a  day 


588 

than  a  bricklayer,  iii  order  to  earn  the  same  amount;  and  a 
fireman  would  have  to  work  many,  many  more  hours  than  a  hod 
carrier  in  a  day  to  earn  the  same  amount.  It  is  because  of  these 
low  rates  that  they  are  compelled  to  work  these  longer  hours. 
If  a  switch  engineer  is  entitled  to  the  same  consideration  as 
carj tenters  and  ]irinters  and  wiremen  and  what  not,  in  the  rates 
of  wages,  why,  I  am  quite  sure  there  should  be  an  eight  hour 
day  in  switch  service.  There  is  no  reason  why  the  railroads 
could  not  have  three  shifts  as  well  as  two  shifts,  and  the  engine 
would  be  always  going  then;  there  would  never  be  any  noon 
hour;  but  if  they  say  to  the  engineer  or  firemen,  ''You  can  only 
work  eight  hours,"  I  don't  see  how  they  could  Iniy  meat  and 
bread,  if  you  will  compare  what  other  men  of  equal,  or,  I  might 
say,  without  any  disrespect  to  them,  not  equal  responsibility 
or  ability,  are  earning, 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  that  brings  us  to  a  discussion  you  had 
yesterday  as  to  these  classes  of  yards,  classified  on  different 
railroads,  in  which  certain  designated  points  in  in-actically  all 
the  schedules  are  spoken  of  as  first  class  yards,  and  all  others 
are  second  class  vards.  Is  it  vour  understanding  that  those  are 
based  merely  on  the  size  of  engines  used  in  those  yards? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir.  I  will  tell  3^ou  how  the  second  class 
yard  crept  in.  Realizing  the  extremely  low  rate  of  wages  paid 
switch  engineers  and  firemen,  these  committees  tried  to  get  in- 
creases, and  not  being  able  to  get  what  they  w^anted,  they  com- 
promised, and  the  committee  representing  the  railroads  said, 
"Well,  we  will  give  you  this  rate  in  these  yards,  but  w^e  won't 
give  you  this  rate  in  the  other  yard,"  and  they  had  to  accept  a 
lower  rate,  or,  rather,  they  did  not  have  the  influence  to  secure 
the  higher  rate  on  all  the  yards. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  now,  these  first  class  yards  specified  in 
the  different  schedules  are  ordinarily  yards  at  busy  division 
points  or  large  yards  where  there  is  more  business  than  at  the 
other  yards. 

Mr.  Carter:  It  depends  entirely  on  the  liberality  of  the 
railroad.  Some  railroads  say,  **We  will  pay  the  rate  in  all 
yards,"  and  the  other  railroads  say,  "We  will  pay  it  in  certain 
yards  but  we  will  not  pay  it  in  other  yards." 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  in  any  event,  as  the  result  of  negotia- 
tions between  the  men  of  the  several  roads,  and  the  management 


589 

of  those  roads,  the  dassification  of  the  yards  has  ])e(^n  made? 
Mr.  Carter:     Under  those  circumstances. 
Mr.  Sheean :     And  by  mutual  agreement  it  has  been  agreed 
that  in  certain  yards  a  higher  rate  will  l)o  i^aid  than  in 'other 
yards? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     And,  generally  in  the  schedules  of  the  differ- 
ent roads,  by  that  agreement,  certain  yards  are  thus  specified  as 
taking  a  particular  rate. 
Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  isn't  anything  in  these  schedules,  T 
believe  you  said,  showing  a  definition  of  what  physical  charac- 
teristics will  make  it  a  first  class  yard  or  a  second  class  yard? 
Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  first  class  yards,  on 
some  roads,  are  of  less  importance  than  second  class  yards  on 
other  roads.  For  instance,  without  going  into  details,  I  think 
the  Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas  has  only  one  class  of  yard — is 
that  true? — one  of  the  gentlemen  whom  I  know  is  informed, 
says  that  it  is  true.  Now,  they  are  all  first  class  yards  and  take 
the  first  class  rate.  I  am  quite  sure  that  on  other  roads  you 
will  find  second  class  yards  of  double  or  treble  the  importance 
of  some  of  the  yards  on  that  road,  so  it  has  not  been  a  question 
of  classification  of  yards  according  to  the  work  performed,  but 
entirely  according  to  the  ability  of  the  committee  to  get  results. 
Mr.  Sheean :  As  a  result  of  negotiations  of  the  committees 
with  the  management  of  the  particular  roads,  they  have  made 
the  classifications  which  appear  in  the  ditferent  schedules? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir,  and  I  think  those  classifications  re- 
flect the  liberality  of  the  managements.  Some  roads  would  not 
give  you  the  higher  rate  on  but  two  or  three  yards,  and  other 
roads  would  give  you  the  higher  rate  on  half  of  the  yards,  and 
others  on  maybe  75  per  cent,  and  still  others,  still  more  liberal, 
will  give  the  first  class  rate  on  all  yards. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  is  a  yard  at  the  end  of  a 
branch  line,  on  a  small  terminal,  where  eight  or  ten  trains  a  day, 
all  told,  come  in, — in  your  judgment,  is  the  work  of  a  switch 
engineer  in  that  yard  fairly  comparable  with  the  work  of  a  switch 
engineer  in  a  yard  such  as  a  yard  at  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  It  would  depend  on  the  business,  and  I  think 
our  committee  had  that  in  view  when  they  made  two  rates  on 


590 

the  switch  engiiio;  they  realized  that  the  small  engines  are  used 
just  as  you  say;  they  found  that  they  would  be  used  in  the 
smaller  yards,  and  they  were  willing  to  accept  a  less  rate  on 
those  yards  because  of  the  fact  that  those  smaller  engines  were 
used, 

Mr.  Sheean:  Tlic  less  rate  is  j)redicated  entirely  upon 
w  eights  on  drivers, 

Mr.  Carter :     There  nmst  be  some  basis. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  your  thought  is,  the  purjjose  of  this  pro- 
posal is  to  make  the  classification  of  yards  dependent  on  the 
weights  on  drivers  of  the  engines  used  in  the  yards,  rather  than 
on  the  density  of  business,  the  amount  of  business  done  in  those 
yards? 

Mr.  Carter :  It  is  certainly  more  fixed,  and,  I  believe,  fairer 
to  all  concerned,  because  the  density  of  traffic  in  any  given  yard 
is  variable  from  day  to  day;  stock  rushes,  grain  movements 
and  many  things  change  the  congestion  of  traffic  in  a  given  yard. 
For  instance,  at  some  little  outlying  yard  where  ordinarily  there 
is  but  one  switch  engine,  a  very  small  sw^itcli  engine,  they  have 
stock  pens.  Now,  there  may  occur  a  stock  rush;  in  will  come 
the  stock  trains  and  they  have  got  to  be  unloaded  and  fed  and 
watered — sometimes  they  try  to  feed  them  in  the  cars  and  water 
them;  but  the  authorities  get  after  them — and  all  of  that  work 
all  at  once  falls  on  that  little  yard,  and  it  becomes  immediately 
a  very  important  yard,  and  perhaps  after  the  stock  rush  gets 
over  it  falls  back  into  its  inconsequential  position  on  the  road. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes.  Now,  where  it  ordinarily  occupies  that 
inconsequential  position,  you  would  have  the  rates  in  that  yard 
changed  from  day  to  day  during  this  rush  of  business? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  you  had  to  use  road  engines,  the  proposi- 
tion specifically  provides  for  that  emergency;  but  if  you  use 
switch  engines,  the  switch  engine  proposition  would  provide 
for  that  emergency. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  assuming  that  the  same  engine  stayed 
there  all  the  time,  the  small  engine  that  ordinarily  did  .the  work 
for  that  vard,  and  ordinarilv  <lid  it  in  five  or  six  hours  of  work 
during  the  day — 

Mr.  Carter:     Hard  times — bad  business. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Bad  business,  and  was  paid  the  ten  hours  or 
less  each  one  of  those  davs,  when  there  was  not  more  than  four 


591 

or  five  hours  work  for  it  to  do,  you  would  change  the  classifi- 
cation of  that  yard  if  a  heavier  engine  was  put  in  during  this 
heavy  traffic! 

Mr.  Carter :  I  would  say  yes ;  but  the  officer  that  did  such 
a  thing  would  have  to  account  for  it.  It  would  be  like  putting 
a  Mallet  on  a  four-car  passenger  train,  taking  a  four-dollar  rate 
for  the  fireman. 

Mr.  Sheean:  By  the  way,  in  that  connection,  Mr.  Carter 
— putting  a  Mallet  on  a  certain  kind  of  work — your  proposition 
contemplates  that  a  fireman  or  engineer,  while  delayed  on  a 
Mallet,  receives  a  higher  rate  of  pay  than  a  man  who  is  an 
engineer  or  fireman  who  was  seated  on  a  smaller  engine  waiting 
for  an  opportunity  to  move,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  haven't  the  proposition  here. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  you  do  know  that  all  the  higher 
weighted  engines  on  drivers  pay,  up  to  and  including  the  Mallet 
type,  a  higher  rate  during  all  the  time  that  the  person  is  in 
service  with  that  engine? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  if  an  engineer  and  fireman  on  a  Mallet 
engine  were  held  at  the  terminal  before  starting  out,  for  a  couple 
of  hours,  the  man  who  was  on  that  Mallet  engine  for  that  two 
hours  would  draw  considerably  higher  money  than  another  en- 
gineer who  was  seated,  during  the  same  time,  on  a  smaller  engine 
on  a  side  track! 

Mr.  Carter:  As  I  remember  the  proposition,  he  would 
draw  the  rate  of  the  last  service  performed  by  him. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  assuming  before  they  start  out  on  their 
trip,  one  going  out  with  a  light  engine  and  another  going  oiit 
with  a  heavy  engine,  and  both  waiting  for  an  opportunity  to 
get  out  on  the  road ;  both  on  duty  and  waiting  for  their  oppor- 
tunity to  get  out  of  the  initial  terminal,  and  both  delayed  two 
hours,  the  men  on  the  Mallet  engine  would  draw  much  higher 
rates  of  pay  than  those  on  the  other  weight  of  engine! 

Mr.  Carter :  They  would  have  to  be  there  some  time  before 
they  would  be  seated  on  the  Mallet. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  said  two  hours  in  my  example. 

Mr.  Carter:  A  Mallet  would  keep  them  busy  for  quite  a 
while  to  get  ready  to  go. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Assuming,  whatever  may  be  the  length  of 


592 

time,  two,  or  tliree  or  four  hours,  initial  torininal  delay,  is  it 
not  a  fact  that  the  man  who  is  waiting  for  an  opportunity  to 
get  out  on  the  road  draws  a  liigher  rate,  under  your  proposi- 
tion, if  he  is  waiting  to  go  out  with  a  Mallet  than  if  he  is  waiting 
to  go  out  with  a  smaller  engine? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir.  I  want  to  explain  that  I  am  not  as 
familiar  with  this  proposition  as  I  should  be.  I  haven't  had 
time  to  read  it  since  we  adjourned  last  August;  I  have  been 
working  on  entirelv  different  matters. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  if  you  will  turn,  if  you 
please,  to  your  earlier  tables,  1,  2  and  3 ;  the  averages  obtained 
in  those  rates  of  wages,  extended  in  Tables  1,  2  and  3,  are  also 
made  up  in  the  same  way  as  your  other  averages,  by  counting 
each  rate  as  one  and  simply  taking  the  total  rates  shown  and 
dividing  bv  the  number  added? 

Mr.  Carter :  For  rates  of  wages  in  Tables  1,  2  and  3,  yes. 
When  you  come  to  percentages  of  increase,  it  is  not  that  way. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  percentage  is  the  one  shown  in  Table  5, 
is  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  shows  the  method  of  reaching  percent- 
ages of  increase. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  that  you  have  added  the  sum  of  the 
percentages  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  divided  by  the  number  of  rates  that  enter 
into  that  total  percentage  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes;  but  in  that  instance  we  have  taken  the 
exact  i)ercentage  of  increase  on  each  locomotive. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  how  many  locomotives  did  you  take 
it  on? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  did  not  mean  each  locomotive,  I  meant  loco- 
motives named  in  the  schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Each  rate  named  in  the  schedule? 

Mr.  Carter:  Each  locomotive  named  in  the  schedule,  the 
rate  for  that  locomotive,  or  the  increase  in  the  rate.  Understand, 
this  table  has  been  prepared  by  taking  each  percentage  of  in- 
crease that  appears  in  Table  7,  and,  therefore,  the  smaller  en- 
gines are  given  their  accurate  percentage  of  increase  and  the 
larger  engines  are  given  their  accurate  percentage  of  increase. 
Witli  Tables  1,  2  and  3,  we  took  all  the  engines  collectively. 


593 

and  in  this  table  where  we  take  percentages,  we  take  the  exact 
percentage  shown.  For  instance,  if  the  percentage  was  greater 
on  one  engine  than  another,  even  though  the  rate  would  be 
higher,  it  would  tend  to  decrease  the  average  percentage.  For 
instance,  it  might  be  shown  that  the  percentage  of  increase  on 
a  Mallet  was  10  per  cent. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  for  instance,  how  much  money  would 
that  be? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  cannot  tell  you  without  looking  it  up. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Ten  per  cent  increase  on  a  Mallet  which  took 
a  seven  dollar  rate  would  be  70  cents,  wouldn't  it  I 

Mr.  Carter :     If  it  took  that  rate,  ves. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  on  your  eight  wheel  engine,  which  drew 
four  dollars,  an  increase  of  10  per  cent  there  would  be  40  cents, 
would  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  am  looking  for  that  four  dollar  rate.  Where 
do  vou  find  it  ? 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  simply  took  that  for  the  purpose  of  making 
the  figures  simple. 

Mr.  Carter:  Let  us  take  the  seven  dollar  rate.  I  think 
these  rates  are  rather  deceptive,  because  I  think  you  are  making 
a  wider  spread  than  exists. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Let  us  take  the  $4.50  rate  and  the  $8  rate, 
then. 

Mr.  Carter :     There  is  no  eight  dollar  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Well,  a  seven  dollar  rate. 

Mr.  Carter:  Let  us  find  the  seven  dollar  rate  before  we 
talk  about  it.    Will  you  show  it  to  me,  please  1 

Mr.  Sheean :     There  are  no  seven  dollar  Mallet  rates  f 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  not  saying  there  are  not,  but  I  would 
like  to  see  them.  There  may  be,  but  I  haven't  noticed  them. 
I  think  they  are  asking  for  something  like  that.  Perhaps  that 
is  what  you  are  thinking  about ;  they  are  asking  for  $7.50. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Where  are  Mallets  operated  that  you  have 
carried  out  here  1 

Mr.  Carter:  You  will  find  the  Mallets  ordinarily  the  last 
engines  and  the  highest  rates  in  each  subdivision.  Take,  on 
page  18,  the  first  page  of  Table  7,  you  will  find  that  there  are 
two  classifications  of  Mallets  at  the  end  of  each  general  division. 


594 

Air.  JSheeaii:  Well,  on  page  18,  and  following  page  18,  over 
to  page  20,  there  is  a  $6.55  rate. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  that  is  about  what- it  is.  Without  inves- 
tigating, I  am  going  to  say  that  is  what  it  is. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Take  a  $6.50  rate  and  a  $4.50  rate.  Now,  in 
the  carrying  out  of  your  percentages,  you  would  carry  out  the 
10  per  cent  increase  on  the  $4.50  as  of  equal  value  with  a  10  per 
cent  increase  on  the  $6.50  rate? 

Mr.  Carter :  Pardon  me.  I  am  not  saying  there  is  not  a  $4.50 
rate,  but  I  cannot  find  it.    Can  you  find  it? 

Mr.  Sheean:     For  through  service? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Let  us  take  the  low  rate  that  is  shown  on  the 
same  one  that  we  took  the  $6.50  rate  from — $4.55. 

Mr.  Carter :     That  is  better. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  you  prefer  to  take  $4.55  and  $6.55,  as  shown 
on  that  one,  you  would  carry  out  the  451/2  cents,  the  10  per  cent 
increase  on  the  $4.55,  as  being  of  equal  value  with  the  651/0  cents 
carried  out  on  the  10  per  cent  increase  on  the  $6.55  rate. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  the  difference  should  be  greater, 
perhaps. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  don't  want  to  debate  with  you  whether  it 
should  or  should  not  be  done.  I  am  simply  trying  to  arrive  at 
the  method  you  adopted  in  making  your  Table  5. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  method  adopted. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  in  your  Table  5  you  have  carried  out  the 
per  cent  as  to  all  of  these  various  industries,  and  the  increase 
on  any  of  the  hours  of  any  of  these  various  crafts  would  be 
carried  out  merely  in  the  percentage  relationship ;  that  is,  a  20 
cents  increase  on  a  two  dollar  rate  would  have  equal  value  with 
a  65  cents  increase  on  a  $6.50  rate? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  first  having  obtained  the  percentages, 
you  totaled  these  percentages  in  the  column  headed  '*  Sum  of  Per- 
centages of  Increase. ' '    That  is  true  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  the  percentages  thus  totaled  are  all  refer- 
able to  different  bases,  are  they  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And,  for  the  purposes  of  illustration,  they  may 
be  based  on  20  cents  an  hour  to  as  high  as  80  cents  an  hour? 


595 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Having  obtained  the  percentages  from  differ- 
ent bases,  you  total  the  percentages  thus  obtained? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     And  divide  them  by  the  total  number  of  rates  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir,  and  I  will  say  that  is  the  only  way 
that  I  could  reach  it.    I  don't  know  of  any  other  way. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  as  I  said,  Mr.  Carter,  I  simply  wanted 
to  know  the  way  in  which  it  was  done,  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Carter :  Without  repeating  it,  I  think  you  will  find  in  the 
introductory  pages,  that  I  have  discredited  some  of  these  methods 
myself  and  there  I  show  why  I  have,  if  you  will  read  that.  I 
have  said  that  if  these  engines  were  grouped  by  weights  on 
drivers,  something  like  our  proposition,  then  you  could  accu- 
rately determine  all  these  matters  for  each  group;  but  so  long 
as  there  is  no  method  of  classifying  these  locomotives,  no  stand- 
ard of  wages,  you  have  got  to  adopt  these  methods  to  secure 
results. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  brings  me  back  again  to  something  I  had 
intended  to  ask  you  about,  that  Mr.  Burgess  asked  some  ques- 
tions about  yesterday,  on  the  proposition  based  on  weights  on 
drivers.  Can  you  give  any  reason  why  the  starting  point  based 
on  weights  on  drivers  should  be  made  uniform  in  western  terri- 
tory at  80,000  pounds,  or  at  any  particular  basis  below  the  215,000 
pounds  which  now  appears  in  those  schedules? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  will  say  that  the  divisions  of  this  proposition 
are  as  scientific,  are  as  fair  as  if  you  would  change  every  one 
of  them  five  thousand  pounds,  either  up  or  down.  There  had 
to  be  something  to  start  with. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  granting  that,  and  that  was  embodied 
in  my  question,  215,000  pounds  being  now  in  the  schedules,  a 
uniform  provision  as  to  computation  of  rates,  can  you  tell  us  the 
reason  or  the  reasons  for  starting  at  80,000  pounds,  100,000 
pounds,  or  at  any  other  particular  place. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  it  was  decided  by  the  sub-committee 
that  drafted  this  proposition,  that  by  fixing  the  minimum  weight 
at  80,000  pounds,  that  is  the  group  for  the  minimum  or  lowest 
rate  of  wages,  they  would  include  the  engines  that  properly  should 
come  within  that  minimum  rate.    They  are  the  smaller  locomo- 


596 

tives.  Then  1  think  they  progressed  to  the  second  group,  80,U0U 
to  100,000,  and  there  they  included  engines  that  are  more  in  gen- 
eral use,  doing  important  work,  such  as  the  heavy  eight-wheel 
engines  and  medium  ten-wheelers,  small  Moguls  and  such  as  that, 
and  I  think  that  they  tried  honestly  and  sincerely  to  group  the 
same  class  of  engines  or  character  of  engines  as  are  grouped 
today  in  the  wage  schedules.  I  think  it  was  an  earnest  and  honest 
effort.  I  do  not  think  they  had  any  scheme.  If  they  did,  they 
kept  it  from  me. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr,  Carter,  there  has  been  no  suggestion  or 
intimation  on  my  part  of  any  scheme.  I  was  trying  to  find  out, 
if  1  could,  why  a  starting  point  was  taken  at  80,000  pounds, 
when,  as  I  understood  you  to  say  the  other  day,  they  now  take 
a  uniform  rate  on  a  number  of  engines  on  the  Rock  Island  Rail- 
road, for  instance,  in  which  the  weight  ran  all  the  way  from 
80,000  pounds  clear  up  to  200,000  pounds,  taking  a  uniform  rate 
at  the  present  time. 

Mr.  Carter:  You  are  mistaken.  It  don't  do  anything  of 
the  kind.  No,  sir,  there  are  lots  of  lower  weights  than  those 
sho^^^l  there.     For  instance — 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  you  misunderstand  my  question,  I 
think,  Mr,  Carter.  I  understood  vou  to  sav  the  other  day  that 
under  the  present  provisions  of  schedules,  in  passenger  service, 
an  engine  weighing  all  the  way  from  80,000  pounds  up  to  close 
to  200,000  pounds,  would  have  the  same  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir.     Today? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Yes. 

Mr.  Carter:  Oh,  no.  Turn  to  page  18  and  you  will  find 
it  begins  with  an  8-wheel  engine  at  a  low  rate  of  $4.95.  It  next 
steps  to  a  10-wheel  engine  less  than  100,000  pounds  on  drivers 
at  the  same  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  am  talking  about  the  Rock  Island  schedule. 

Mr.  Carter:  Oh,  the  Rock  Island  schedule.  Well,  I  \nll 
turn  to  that.     What  page  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  don 't  know. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  will  find  it.  Chicago,  Rock  Island  &  Pacific. 
Page  35. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Now,  this  is  entirely  freight,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     This  Rock  Island  rate  is  entirely  freight. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Now,  I  un<lerstood  you  to  say  the  other  day, 


597 

Mr.  Carter,  that  in  passenger  service,  engines  weighing  all  the 
way  from  80,000  pounds  or  below  80,000  pounds,  clear  up  to  as 
high  as  200,000  pounds,  w^ould  take  the  same  passenger  rate. 

Mr.  Carter:     In  our  proposition,  you  mean? 

Mr.  Sheean:     No,  in  the  present  practice. 

Mr.  Carter :  Why,  no.  It  is  now  based  on  cylinders  largely, 
without  regard  to  weight.  If  I  said  that,  I  did  not  intend  to 
say  anything  of  the  kind. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  but  based  upon  the  cylinder,  if  you 
please — 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Sheean:  (Continuing) — that  tliey  might  run  in  actual 
weight  on  drivers,  starting  from  80,000  pounds  up  close  to 
200,000  pounds? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  they  might. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  they  take  a  uniform  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  they  do  not.  Take  the  Rock  Island,  for 
instance,  you  will  find  some  of  those  larger  engines  taking  all 
kinds  of  rates  on  the  Rock  Island.  In  passenger  service — well, 
I  would  have  to  have  the  Rock  Island  schedule.  Have  you  got 
the  Rock  Island  schedule  here?     Let  me  take  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  how  wide  a  spread  would  you  say 
there  was  in  engines  in  passenger  service,  in  weights  on  drivers, 
on  engines  which  now  take  the  same  rate? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  cannot  tell  without  referring  to  this.  I  have 
not  attempted  to  investigate  that  at  all.  I  want  to  turn  to  the 
Chicago  &  Rock  Island,  to  see  what  it  says. 

Mr.  Stone:     In  passenger  service. 

Mr.  Carter:     I  do  not  seem  to  be  able  to  find  it  here. 

Mr.  Shea :     Just  turn  to  the  index  to  show  rates  of  wages. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Page  92. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  it.  Unfortunately  we  called  these  the 
Rock  Island  Lines,  and  this  Avas  indexed  away  down  in  the  R's. 
That  is  why  I  could  not  find  it.  It  was  a  mistake,  whoever  in- 
dexed it  in  this  way,  without  indexing  it  the  other  way. 

Here  we  have  it.  Passenger  engines,  8-wlieel,  18-inch  cyl- 
inder and  under,  for  passenger  service,  $2.65;  19-inch  cylinder 
and  under,  $2.75 ;  19  to  21-inch  cylinder,  with  trailer  or  Atlantic 
type,  $2.85. 

Now,  it  comes  to  6-wheel  connected ;  18  and  19-inch  cylin- 


598 

der,  $2.85;  18  to  19-iiicli  cylinder  Mo^iil,  $2.85;  2U  to  22-iiich 
cylinder,  $,S.10;  20  to  23-inch  cylinder  with  trailer,  Pacific,  $3.10; 
24-inch  cylinder  and  over.  Pacific,  $3.10.  Now,  we  come  to  the 
Consolidations. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  will  do,  Mr.  Carter.  On  that  $3.10  rate 
there,  how  much  of  a  variation  would  you  say  there  was,  or 
spread  in  weights  on  drivers,  on  that  uniform  $3.10  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:     On  the  Rock  Island? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Yes. 

Mr.  Carter :     I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Can  you  give  us  any  idea  about  how  wide 
the  spread  would  be  in  weights  on  drivers  on  that  uniform  rate 
of  $3.10? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  cannot  tell  you,  I  must  confess  that.  I  could 
take  the  blueprints  and  check  up — 

Mr.  Sheean:  No,  I  thought  you  would  know  something 
about  that  spread. 

Mr.  Carter:  Turn  to  Exhibit  2.  I  think  that  will  give  us 
some  information. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Exhibit  4. 

Mr.  Carter :     Ts  it  Exhibit  4?     I  mean  the  one  that  shows — 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  it  is  in  one  of  the  exhibits  w^e  can  get  that 
later.     I  thought  perhaps  you  would  be  able  to  tell  generally. 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  I  can  give  it  to  you  exactly. 

Mr.  Byram :     Turn  to  page  55,  Mr.  Carter. 

Mr.  Carter:  Thank  you.  Now,  by  turning  to  page  55  of 
Exhibit  number  4  I  tliink  you  will  find  the  information  that  you 
requested.  You  will  find  how  the  rates  and  weights  on  drivers 
fall. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Take  that  uniform  rate  of  $3.10,  and  give  us 
the  number  of  different  weights  to  which  that  rate  now  applies, 
and  which  would  be  changed  by  your  proposal  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  There  is  one  Pacific  engine  which  seems  to 
have  slightly  less  than  140,000  pounds  on  drivers,  and  it  falls 
in  that  group. 

Then  it  extends  from  that  up  to  the  highest  in  the  next 
group.  One  group  practically  covers  all  of  it,  so  far  as  weight 
on  drivers  is  concerned.  That  is,  there  is  one  engine  that  falls 
in  the  fourth  group. 

Mr.  Sheean:     One  engine,  or  one  rate? 


599 

Mr.  Carter :  I  mean  one  rate  that  falls  in  the  fourth  group, 
and  two  of  the  three  rates  in  the  next  group,  are  $3.10  rates. 
I  will  take  that  back.  It  falls  in  three  groups.  Commencing  at 
140,000  pounds,  they  apparently  have  a  Pacific  engine  in  there 
that  draws  the  $3.10  rate.  Then  all  of  the  next  group,  140,000 
to  170,000  pounds,  except  the  first  Consol.,  draw  the  $3.10  rate, 
and  then  all  the  next  group  at  the  $3.10  rate. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is,  according  to  this  tabulation  as  I  get 
it,  there  are  six  different  types  of  engines  wliich  now  take  the 
same  rate! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  which,  under  your  proposal,  would  take 
three  different  rates! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  and  properly  so,  if  you  will  note — 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  did  not  want  to  debate  that. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  want  to  show  why  it  does.  You  asked  the 
question  and  I  want  to  explain  why  it  does. 

You  w^ill  find  that,  under  the  present  conditions,  an  engine 
may  weigh  200,000  pounds  on  drivers  and  still  draw  that  $3.10 
rate,  and  there  are  engines  as  low  as  140,000  pounds,  and  that 
is  not  fair  to  the  company. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Let  us  take,  on  that  same  page,  the  engineers ' 
wages  on  that  same  road.  That  is  what  I  was  starting  to  talk 
about. 

Ml-.  Carter:     Page  55. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  there  seem  to  be,  in  the  less  than  80,000 
pounds  on  drivers,  two  groups  of  engines  taking  the  $4.40  rate. 
There  seem  to  be,  in  the  80,000  pounds  and  less  than  100,000 
pounds,  four  different  groups  which  now  take  the  same  rate  of 
$4.40,  that  would  be  thrown  into  a  separate  classification.  There 
seem  to  be  five  in  the  100,000  and  less  than  140,000  now  taking 
the  uniform  $4.40  rate.  There  seem  to  be  three  which  would  fall 
into  the  140,000  and  less  than  170,000,  now  taking  the  $4.40 
rate,  and  three  in  the  170,000  and  less  than  200,000  which  now 
take  a  uniform  rate,  but  which  would  l)e  thrown  into  a  separate 
classification  here. 

So  tliat  it  is  a  fact,  is  it  not,  that  in  the  passenger  service  of 
the  Chicago,  Rock  Island  &  Pacific,  engines  which  now  take  a 
uniform  rate,  and  which  vary  in  weights  on  drivers  from  less 
than  80,000  pounds,  up  to  and  including  l)etween  170,000  and 


600 

200,000  pounds,  would  be  given  five  different  rates  by  your  pro- 
posal, where  they  now  take  the  same  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:  Graduated  according  to  the  size  of  the  engine 
and  the  work  it  does. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  coming  back  to  where  I  started,  can 
you  tell  us  the  reason  or  reasons  which  caused  the  committee 
which  divided  this  into  five  different  classes,  to  start  at  80,000 
pounds  in  making  their  classification? 

Mr.  Carter:  T  did  not  interview  them,  but  I  am  going  to 
say  what  I  think  were  their  reasons. 

They  ])elieved  that  it  was  absurd  to  demand  the  same  rate 
of  wages  on  a  little  8-w^heel  engine  pulling  passenger,  as  on  a 
huge  Pacific  engine  pulling  passenger.  In  the  one  instance  it 
might  have  three  little  cars  on  a  local  branch  line  of  some  kind,  and 
in  the  other  case  it  is  an  engine  pulling  a  from  nine  to  twelve 
steel  car.  high  speed  train.  They  thought  that  was  not  scientific, 
to  say  the  least ;  and  in  order  to  base  these  rates  on  some  scien- 
tific basis  they  tried  to  fix  a  rate  in  accordance  with  their  pro- 
ductive efficiency,  their  earnings  for  the  railroad,  and  the  labor 
and  responsibility, 

Mr.  Shea :  Mr.  Sheean,  may  I  get  a  little  information  there? 
I  understood  you  to  say  that  the  present  rates  of  pay  for  engi- 
neers on  the  Kock  Island  were  uniform  for  five  different  groups. 
Did  I  misunderstand  you! 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  would  not  say  positively  whether  that  was 
what  I  said,  but  what  I  intended  to  say  was  that  on  the  Rock  Is- 
land Railioad,  engines  running  all  the  way  from  less  than  80,000 
pounds  on  drivers  up  to  and  including  between  170,000  and  200,- 
000  pounds  on  drivers,  some  engines  varying  in  those  weights, 
take  a  rate  of  $4.40. 

Mr.  Shea :     I  understood  you  to  say  that  they  were  uniform. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  uniform  rate  of  $4.40  is  applicable  to 
certain  engines  which  vary  from  below  80,000  pounds  to  above 
170,000  pounds  weight  on  drivers, 

Mr.  Shea  :     That  is  right. 

Mr.  Carter:  Pardon  me  for  expressing  an  opinion.  I  think 
it  is  time  somebody  was  changing  the  conditions  on  the  Rock 
Island. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  in  connection  with  these  settle- 
ments or  concerted  movements,  both"  of  1907  and  1910 — 


601 

Mr.  Carter :     The  Engineers  ? 

Mr.  Sheean:  No;  speaking  generally  of  both  the  move- 
ments in  1907  and  1910,  there  were  changes  in  certain  rules  in 
both  those  movements,  as  well  as  changes  in  rates,  were  there 
not? 

.       Mr.   Carter:     What  rules?     I  must  confess,   I  don't  re- 
member. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  did  not  want  to  take  up  the  time  as  to  what 
they  were,  but  simply  as  to  whether  or  not  we  could  get  the 
general  statement  that  certain  rules  as  well  as  wages  were 
changed, 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Those  rules  as  thus  changed  were  more  favor- 
able to  the  employes  than  the  previously  existing  rules  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  They  were  more  favorable,  but  not  so  favor- 
able as  the  employes  tried  to  get. 

Mr.  Sheean:  No;  but  the  rules  that  were  agreed  upon 
did  bring  additional  com^Densation  to  the  men? 

Mr.  Carter :     In  some  instances,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  All  I  wanted  to  bring  out  was  that  there  were 
certain  compensatory  rules,  as  well  as  an  increase  in  rates? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  hate  to  answer  the  question  without  check- 
ing up  this  list  to  see  that  that  is  true.  I  hate  to  say  yes,  when 
I, don't  know;  but  it  is  possible  that  that  is  true. 

.    Mr.  Sheean :    You  are  quite  sure  that  no  rules  went  in  that 
operated  to  reduce  the  compensation  of  the  men? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  not.  I  am  quite  sure  of  that,  but  I 
don't  want  to  state  something  about  the  engineers'  settlement 
of  1907  that  is  false.  I  have  all  these,  however,  for  the  express 
purpose  of  introducing  them,  if  it  is  desired,  so  the  Board  will 
have  access  to  them  at  any  time. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  might  add,  Mr.  Chairman,  that,  if  it  will 
expedite  matters  any,  we  will  be  very  glad  to  have  one  of  our 
men  called  as  a  witness  for  the  defense;  or,  I  will  take  the 
stand  myself  as  a  witness  for  the  defense,  and  show  exactly 
what  was  done  in  the  two  wage  movements,  of  1906-1907  and 
1910. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  think  we  shall  ask  leave  to  file  copies  of 
these.  They  are  short  in  both  cases,  as  to  the  requests  and  the 
allowances,  and  T  think  we  shall  ask  leave  to  file  them  in  connec- 


602 

tion  witli  the  other  dociiinents  tliat  we  have  asked  leave  to  file. 

The  Chairman:  Tlie  Secretar>^  of  the  Board,  as  I  under- 
stand it,  has  already  filed  a  copy  of  those  agreements  with  the 
Board.    T  tliiiik  we  have  copies  of  them. 

Mr.  Nagel :  ^fr.  Stone,  tliere  is  a  question  here  as  to  who 
is  the  defendant  in  this  case. 

Mr.  Stone:  T  should  sui)pose  that  we  were  the  plaintiff  in 
the  case,  as  we  oi)ened  the  case  first  and  prosecuted  it  first,  and 
that  the  railroads,  I  would  take  it  for  granted,  are  the  defend- 
ants.   They  usually  are. 

Mr.  Philli])S:  Soniotiiuos  tlio  Arbitration  Board  are  the 
defendants. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Pardon  me,  Mr,  Stone,  but  you  said  you 
would  take  the  witness  stand  for  the  defense?  You  meant  the 
comjilainant? 

Mr.  Stone:  No,  I  meant  for  the  defense.  If  thev  are  anx- 
ious  to  call  me  as  a  witness  for  the  defense  I  should  be  very 
glad  to  take  the  stand,  that  is,  if  they  think  their  case  needs  my 
testimony. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  think  that  is  all,  Mr.  Carter. 

REDIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  In  computing  the  averages  which  appear  in 
Exhibit  numlier  5,  w^as  an  adding  machine  used,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir.  Well,  in  computing  the  averages,  the 
averages  were  all  com])uted  on  a  special  com]mting  machine 
different  entirely  from  an  adding  machine. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Did  you  use  the  adding  machine  to  compute 
the  different  rates  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Oh,  the  averages?  I  thought  you  meant  the 
percentages.  The  averages  were  all  computed  on  the  Burroughs 
adding  machine.  The  percentages  were  all  computed  on  the 
Lome  Com]itometer,  made  in  England. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Is  the  adding  machine  reliably  accurate? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  machine,  I  don't  think,  would  ever  make 
a  mistake.    The  o])erator  may  make  mistakes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  But,  if  the  figures  are  entered  in  the  ma- 
chine ])roperly  the  sums  reached  w^ill  be  accurate  in  every 
instance? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 


603 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  This  other  machine  to  which  you  refer,  by 
which  you  made  your  divisions  or  struck  your  averages,  did  that 
also  work  automatically  and  accurately? 

Mr.  Carter :  Most  wonderfully.  Turn  a  crank  and  it  turns 
out  percentages  just  like  sausage  out  of  a  sausage  machine. 

Mr:  Pliillips:  Then,  you  feel  that  these  averages,  or  sums 
you  added,  or  the  averages  w^iere  the  divisions  have  been  made, 
are  as  accurate  as  they  can  be  made  by  human  agency,  aided  by 
most  a.ccurate  machinery  f 

Mr.  Carter:     Shall  I  describe  how  it  is  done? 

Mr.  Pliillips:  I  don't  think  we  need  to  bring  that  out  in 
detail,  Mr.  Carter.  The  point  I  wanted  to  bring  out  was  that  the 
figures  in  the  exhibit  were  absolutely  reliable. 

Mr.  Carter:  It  has  been  checked  and  re-checked,  and  I 
have  had  men  from  the  University  of  Michigan  here  to  verify 
them,  and  I  have  sent  them  to  Washington  and  had  statistical 
experts  there  verify  them,  and  yet  I  find  here  and  there  some- 
thing thej'  have  overlooked. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Aside  from  the  error  of  composition  or 
maybe  typogTaphical  errors,  which  may  at  all  times  occur 
through  some  human  agency,  you  believe  them  to  be  absolutely 
accurate ! 

Mr.  Carter:  I  want  to  say  that  I  have  discovered  since 
that  book  has  been  olfered,  in  one  or  two  instances,  where  there 
are  errors  and  I  have  tried  to  call  attention  to  them;  but  other 
than  the  errors  I  have  referred  to  I  believe  them  to  be  absolutely 
accurate. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  were  asked  a  question  yesterday,  I  be- 
lieve, Mr.  Carter,  as  to  why,  in  considering  the  average  hourly 
rates  of  engineers  and  firemen  in  freight  service,  you  did  not 
include  the  average  hourly  rate,  or  the  hourly  rates  of  men  in 
local  or  way  freight  service.  Why  was  that  not  done? 
Mr.  Carter:  In  Table  7? 
Mr.  Phillips:     In  Table  7. 

Mr.  Carter:  Table  7  specifically  states  it  is  limited  to 
freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillips:  What  is  the  difference,  if  any,  between 
through  freight  rates  and  lo.cal  freight  rates  for  engineers  and 
firemen?    Is  it  marked,  or  is  it  slight? 

Mr.  Carter:    Well,  I  think  it  varies.    I  am  not  an  expert 


604 

on  eugiueers'  schedules.  1  dou't  kuow  what  it  is,  but  I  thiuk 
possibly  it  goes  as  high  as  40  cents,  and  firemen  as  high  as  25 
cents.  Sometimes  it  is  ten  per  cent,  which  makes  it  more  accord- 
ing to  the  size  of  the  engine.     It  is  variable. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  it  could  be  shown  that  the  prevailing  rate, 
possibly  the  average  rate  or  nearly  the  average  rate,  for  both 
engineers  and  firemen,  was  25  cents  per  hundred  miles,  that 
would  be  2y2  cents  per  hour,  would  it  not,  on  a  ten  hour  basis? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  but  then  understand,  it  is  more  than  25 
cents  per  hour  for  engineers. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Are  you  sure  of  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  in  some  instances  they  get  a  higher 
rate. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Well,  in  a  general  way,  do  you  know? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Assuming  that  it  is  slightly  more  than  that, 
even  three  cents  per  hour,  Avould  the  small  number  of  men, 
engineers  and  firemen,  engaged  in  local  service,  make  any  appre- 
ciable difference  in  the  average  rates  you  have  found? 

Mr.  Carter:     Not  in  the  rates,  but  in  the  earnings,  yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  the  earnings  of  the  individual,  but  not  in 
the  average  rates  which  you  have  found  here  or  which  you  have 
reached  I 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  not  in  the  earnings  of  the  individual  be- 
cause I  have  never  found  any  individual  that  could  ever  run  or 
fire  two  engines  at  the  same  time.  It  would  be  when  the  rate 
applied  to  the  individual,  but  collectively,  to  all  the  men,  it 
would  be  different. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  understood  you  yesterday  to  say  that  en- 
gineers and  firemen  were  firing  three  engines  on  the  Erie. 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  thev  mould  them  in  the  factorv,  three 
in  one;  they  are  all  made  as  one  engine. 

Mr.  Phillips:    All  under  one  management? 

Mr.  Carter:     One  captain,  yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Here  is  what  I  wanted  to  get  at:  If  a  num- 
ber of  men  on  each  railroad  are  engaged  in  handling  local  freight 
trains  and  receive  a  differential  of  three  cents  per  hour  in  their 
established  rate,  would  that  make  any  gi*eat  difference  in  the 
average  rate  for  freight  engineers,  which  you  have  struck? 

Mr.  Carter:     It  would  not  make  anv  difference  so  far  as 


605 

the  numbers  are  concerned,  but  it  would  make  a  differeu,ce  so 
far  as  the  rates  are  concerned.     Tlie  rates  are  higher  per  hour. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Would  it  make  it  very  much  higher? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  ordinarily  they  draw  a  higher  rate 
in  local  and  way  freight  service  than  that  same  engine  in  through 
freight  service. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  you  think  the  position  of  the  engineer 
or  fireman  would  be  changed  numerically  in  the  tables,  where 
you  show  them  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Maybe  I  do  not  understand  what  you  are 
asking. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Table  3,  on  page  10,  for  example ;  you  show  in 
that  table  the  ranking  position  according  to  average  rate  per 
hour  for  engineers  and  firemen,  and  employes  in  various  other 
lines  of  industry.  Do  you  think  if  the  rate  for  local  men  had  been 
included  in  reaching  these  averages,  that  the  ranking  position  of 
engineers  and  firemen  would  have  been  noticeably  changed  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  would  have  been  changed,  perhaps,  to  the 
right  of  the  point  in  the  decimal  figures,  but  I  do  not  think  it 
would  have  been  changed  in  the  cents  column. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  you  said,  in  answer  to  a  question  yes- 
terday, Mr.  Carter,  that,  by  using  the  very  low  rates  that,  from 
the  question  it  might  be  inferred  were  in  effect  on  small  engines 
in  freight  service,  that  the  averages  had  been  made  more  inac- 
curate. Now,  if  a  rate  was  used  in  compiling  these  averages,  a 
low  rate  applicable  to  a  small  engine,  and  that  engine  was  not 
actually  used  in  freight  service,  would  not  that  have  had  the 
effect  of  making  the  average  rates  even  lower  than  they  actu- 
ally are? 

Mr.  Carter:  There  is  no  question  of  it.  The  more  low 
rates  you  add  to  the  total,  the  lower  the  average  will  be. 

Mr.  Phillips :  With  regard  to  this  average,  Mr.  Carter,  turn 
to — or,  I  do  not  know  that  you  need  to  turn,  but  I  want  to  ask 
you  a  question  regarding  Table  7,  appearing  on  page  18.  Are 
we  to  understand  that  the  rates  appearing  here,  45i/^  cents  per 
hour  for  engineers  on  an  8-wheel  engine,  and  the  first  rate  on  the 
next  page,  at  the  top  of  the  page,  511/2  cents  per  hour  in  1907,  for 
example,  and  I  am  just  reading  these  for  the  purpose  of  ex- 
emplification, are  we  to  understand  that  that  is  an  average  rate 
or  the  actual  hourly  rate  ? 


606 

Mr.  Carter :     Do  you  mean  the  columns  IIMIT,  1910  and  1914? 

Mr.  Phillips :     Yes. 

Mr.  Carter :     That  is  the  actual  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips :     The  actual  rate? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:     And  not  an  average  rate! 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir ;  that  is  an  actual  rate. 

Mr.  Phillips:  None  of  the  rates  appearing  in  Table  7  is  an 
average  rate;  they  are  all  actual  rates? 

Mr.  Carter:     They  are  all  actual  rates. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  the  rates  appearing  under  the  year  1914 
are  the  rates  in  effect  for  those  engines  at  this  time! 

Mr.  Cartel-:     Yes,  sir? 

Mr.  Phillii)s:     And  not  average  rates! 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  The  only  places  average  rates  are 
shown  are  in  Tables  1,  2  and  3,  and  on  pages  8,  9,  10  and  11,  and 
I  think  I  go  to  special  pains  to  explain  why  they  are  not  a  scientific 
average. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Mr.  Carter,  considerable  has  been  said  about 
a  215,000  pound  engine  on  drivers,  and  you  have  been  asked 
as  to  whether  or  not  that  was  a  starting  point,  or  a  dividing 
point.  Were  the  engines  of  215,000  jiounds  on  drivers  in  general 
use  prior  to  1910? 

Mr.  Carter :  T  am  (juite  sure  that  in  1910  an  engine  weighing 
215,000  pounds  on  drivers  was  a  very  large  engine,  except  the 
Mallets,  understand. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Yes ;  and  rates  fixed  before  that  time  had  not 
been  on  a  weight  on  drivers  basis  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Generally  speaking? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  would  the  fact  that  the  railroads  ac- 
cepted or  were  parties  to  a  settlement  on  a  weight  on  drivers 
basis  for  a  new  engine,  indicate  to  you  that  they  believed  that 
was  the  proper  method  of  fixing  the  rates  for  all  engines ! 

Mr.  Carter :  As  I  remember  it,  the  question  of  weight  on 
drivers  was  never  o1)jected  to  by  any  railroad  committee,  in  any 
negotiations,  imtil  we  adopted  it  in  our  Eastern  proposition,  and 
then,  of  course,  they  attacked  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:     I  believe  T  understood  you  to  say  the  other 


607 

day,  Mr.  Carter,  reading  from  a  former  exhibit,  that  the  propo- 
sition of  adoi)ting  a  general  standardization  of  weights  on  drivers 
for  fixing  the  rates  for  firemen  on  a  fair  basis,  was  made  by  a 
Committee  of  Managers,  did  you  not! 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  sir ;  and  I  have  a  great  many  quotations 
from  that. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  you  did  not  understand  that  the  Com- 
mittee of  Managers  wanted  to  begin  at  215,000  pounds,  did  you  1 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  I  rather  think  the  impression  was  that  that 
was  about  the  biggest  engine  they  had.  About  the  biggest;  I 
don't  mean  to  say  the  biggest,  but  215,000  pounds  or  up  was  a 
very  large  engine;  of  course,  with  the  exception  of  the  Mallets 
where  there  was  a  special  rate  made  for  the  Mallets. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  understand  Mallets  to  be  compound  en- 
gines, do  you? 

Mr.  Carter:  They  are  compounds.  I  understand  they 
have  experimented  on  them  otherwise,  with  superheaters,  and 
they  are  finding  that  they  will  probably  abandon  the  compound 
feature.  The  compound  engine,  at  that  time,  was  the  engine 
from  a  mechanical  viewpoint,  for  twenty  years. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  engineers 
differentiate  in  compound  engines  on  weights  on  drivers,  at  a 
weight  above  215,000  pounds  I 

Mr.  Carter :     They  may ;  I  don 't  know. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  they  do,  that  w^ould  indicate  that  even 
the  railroads  accord  two  classifications  on  weights  on  drivers 
above  215,000  pounds,  would  it  not! 

Mr.  Carter :  In  the  instance  of  the  firemen  it  was  an  arbi- 
tration award,  and  you  could  not  say  the  railroads  agreed  to 
it  of  their  own  accord ;  but  in  the  settlement  with  the  engineers 
it  was  not  an  arbitration,  and  I  think  it  can  be  truly  said  that 
they  agreed  to  it  voluntarily. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  was  referring  to  the  settlement  with  the 
engineers,  Mr.  Carter. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  were  asked,  Mr.  Carter,  if  you  carried 
these  rates  of  pay  back  to  January  1st,  1907,  in  compiling  these 
tables.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  you  did  not  do  so.  Is 
that  correct! 

Mr.   Carter:     No,  I  thought  if  I  went  back  to  1907  and 


608 

brought  it  up  to  dale,  J   was  uudcrtaking  to  do  as  much  as  I 
could  do  within  tlio  limited  ])eriod  of  time. 

Mr.  riiiliips:  But  for  the  engineers  you  went  back  to  Feb- 
ruary 1st,  1907! 

Mr.  Carter:  I  went  back  in  both  instances  to  the  wage  set- 
tlements of  the  year  1907. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  would  be  February  1st  or  April  1st,  for 
the  engineers  and  firemen,  respectively,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  am  quite  sure  that  is  right. 

Mr.  Phillips :  In  these  other  branches  of  industry,  did  you 
go  back  to  January  1st,  1907,  in  taking  their  rates  for  that  year? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  I  think  it  is  much  later  in  1907  than  that ; 
I  think  you  will  find  that  the  basic  rates  used  in  Table  7,  for 
engineers  and  firemen,  antedate  the  basic  rates  used  for  em- 
ployes in  other  industries.     I  think  so. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  I  believe  counsel  for  the  rail- 
roads asked  you  a  question  about  the  practice  of  men  laying 
off,  intimating,  to  me  at  least,  by  the  question,  that  engineers 
and  firemen  laid  off  a  great  deal  more^than  employes  in  other 
lines  of  industry.     Do  you  understand  that  to  be  the  fact? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  that  is  true.  ^Tien  business  is  good 
I  do  not  believe  the  men  can  follow^  their  engines,  and  they  have 
to  lay  off,  much  as  they  would  like  to  earn  the  money.  They 
have  to  lay  off. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  you  believe  if  they  do  lay  off,  period- 
ically or  occasionally,  it  is  because  the  hours  have  been  too  long 
or  the  labor  has  been  too  heavy,  and  they  find  it  necessary  to 
lay  off  to  recuperate? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  would  say  that  accounts  for  a  large  major- 
ity of  the  instances  where  men  do  lay  off.  I  do  not  mean  to  say 
men  do  not  lay  off  for  other  purposes.  They  may  lay  off  be- 
cause they  are  sick;  they  may  lay  off  for  a  vacation;  or  they 
may  lay  off  to  give  another  fellow  a  trip. 

Mr.  Phillips:  About  these  other  industries  that  work  on 
an  eight-hour  day,  I  understood  you  to  say  that  as  a  rule  when 
an  eight-hour  man  was  called  to  work  he  had  a  fair  assurance  of 
a  day's  work. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  think  there  is  any  question  of  the 
fact  that  the  men  in  these  industries,  other  than  railroads  named 
in  this  report,  have  a  more  fixed  period  of  service  ordinarily. 


609 

I  mean  to  say  that,  for  a  guess,  99  per  cent  of  the  priuters  who 
walk  into  a  printing  office,  work  the  full  period  of  time. 

I  will  confess  it  is  possible  for  the  foreman  to  walk  over 
and  say,  ''Well,  you  will  have  to  go  home,"  and  I  do  not  know 
whether  there  is  any  rule  in  their  wage  agreements  that  pro- 
hibits it.  I  have  their  wage  agreement,  but  I  have  not  had  time 
to  read  it.  I  don't  know  that  there  is  any  rule,  but  I  am  going 
to  say  there  would  not  be  one  instance  out  of  many  hundreds 
where  such  an  incident  would  occur. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Would  you  from  your  knowledge  be  able  to 
say  that  it  would  be  as  likely  to  occur  to  one  of  them  as  it  would 
to  a  yard  engineer  or  fireman  in  the  switching  service  1 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  you  will  find  that  men  in  other  services 
are  laid  off  and  sent  home  just  about  as  often  as  they  do  that 
for  the  switch  engineer  or  switch  fireman — not  very  often. 

Mr.  Phillips :  It  would  be  a  rare  exception  in  either  event, 
would  it  not  1 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  about  these  road  men,  where  they  have 
a  daj'  for  one  hundred  miles  or  less,  or  for  ten  hours  or  less, 
can  you  tell,  from  your  own  knowledge  or  experience,  or  infor- 
mation which  you  may  have  on  the  subject,  what  proportion  of 
engineers  and  firemen  get  a  day  for  less  than  ten  hours  f 

Mr.  Carter :  So  far  as  passenger  men  are  concerned,  they 
practically  all  do,  on  account  of  the  high  speed  of  their  trains, 
and  the  intensity  of  the  conditions  of  emplojanent,  mental  and 
physical.  They  usually  have  a  five  hour  day,  and  in  the  East 
practically  altogether  so,  and  it  is  considered  that  in  passenger 
service  a  man  does  a  day's  work  in  five  hours.  It  is  true  the  rate 
is  less  in  passenger  service  than  it  is  in  freight  service ;  but  as 
it  applies  to  passenger  service  it  is  usually  a  five  hour  day. 

As  it  applies  to  freight  service,  I  do  not  believe  that  on  some 
roads  many  freight  trains  get  over  the  road  at  a  less  speed  than 
ten  miles  per  hour ;  and  if  you  will  take  into  consideration  the 
hour  or  hour  and  a  half  they  were  called  before  the  train  left, 
and  possibly  a  half  hour  on  the  other  end  of  the  trip,  I  do  not 
believe  they  would  ever  make  the  trip  in  ten  hours  to  the  hun- 
dred miles. 

Now,  as  I  said  yesterday,  there  are  roads  that,  for  some 
reasons  best  known  to  themselves,  have  never  loaded  these  new 


610 

superlioater  enjdnes  to  tlioir  capacity.  1  lind  that  they  are  get- 
ting over  tlie  road  in  s]ilenclid  shape,  but  it  is  because  they  are 
not  loaded  down.  Whenever  they  load  those  engrines  down  like 
they  <lo  on  other  roads,  or  on  other  engines,  it  will  be  the  same 

old  drag. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  it  your  belief,  Mr.  Carter,  that  the  ma- 
jority of  engineers  and  firemen  in  freight  service,  the  masses 
of  them,  the  rank  and  file  of  freight  engineers  and  firemen,  give 
100  miles  or  its  equivalent  in  hours  for  a  day's  service? 

Mr.  Carter :  If  you  will  take  them  both  collectively,  I  will 
say,  in  accordance  with  the  schedule,  yes;  but  there  are  times 
when  a  division  is  only  85  miles  long,  and  tlie  schedule  specif- 
ically provides  that  100  miles  or  less,  or  ten  hours  or  less,  shall 
constitute  a  day's  work.  In  that  instance  they  do  not  make  the 
ten  hours,  and  they  do  not  make  one  hundred  miles,  but  they  do 
perfoi-m  the  service  expected  of  them  by  the  schedule. 

In  another  instance  there  may  be  a  one  hundred  mile  divi- 
sion where,  because  of  some  specially  undesirable  feature,  such 
as  mountain  grades,  they  will  say,  "We  will  give  you  one  hun- 
dred and  ten  miles  pay  for  it.  It  is  only  a  one  hundred  mile 
division ;  but  regardless  of  the  time  in  which  you  go  over  that 
division  we  will  give  you  this  additional  ten  miles."  It  is  not 
constructive  mileage.    It  is  a  special  payment  for  that  grade. 

Now,  on  other  roads  thev  will  make  a  dav  of  sixtv  miles,  or 
six  hours,  or  sometimes  less  than  that,  all  to  compensate  for  the 
heavy  grade. 

I  think  you  will  find  that  on  the  Denver  &  Rio  Grande,  in 
the  mountain  districts,  the  length  of  a  day's  service  either  in 
miles  or  hours,  changes  from  mile  post  to  mile  post,  on  one  divi- 
sion, according  to  the  grade. 

Mr.  Philli])s :  An  engineer  or  fireman  going  over  that  divi- 
sion would  change  his  rate  of  pay  from  time  to  time. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not  know  how  they  do  it,  but  I  think 
where  grades  are  a  certain  percentage,  they  have  four  hours 
per  day,  or  forty  miles  per  day,  in  order  to  earn  a  day's  pay. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Going  back  to  the  former  question,  you  an- 
swered it  in  a  general  way.  That  is,  you  covered  the  exceptions. 
I  would  understand  that  there  are  exceptions,  where  an  engi- 
neer or  a  fireman  may  not  work  one  hundred  miles  or  ten  hours ; 
but,  generally  speaking,  and  taking  the  two  collectively,  as  I 


611 

believe  they  are  taken  in  all  schedules,  do  you  believe  that  freight 
engineers  and  firemen  give  one  hundred  miles  or  ten  hours' 
service  for  a  day's  work? 

Mr.  Carter:     In  through  freight  service? 

Mr.  Phillips :     In  through  freight  service. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  there  are  very  few  divisions  in  the 
west  that  fall  less  than  one  hundred  miles;  but  if  there  was  a 
division  of  eighty  miles,  and  a  man  ran  from  one  terminal  to 
the  other  terminal,  he  would  receive  the  same  rate  of  i)ay  for 
those  eighty  miles,  when  paid  on  a  mileage  basis,  as  if  it  was  one 
hundred  miles. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  he  was  ten  hours  making  it,  that  would 
be  the  equivalent  of  one  hundred  miles. 

Mr.  Carter:  If  he  were  ten  hours  making  it,  he  would  be 
paid  on  the  hourly  basis;  but  if  he  were  only  eight  or  nine  hours 
making  it,  he  would  receive  the  pay. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  mean  that  he  would  receive  addi- 
tional pay? 

Mr.  Carter:  He  would  receive  the  same  pay  as  if  he  w^ere 
ten  hours  making  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  he  w^ere  ten  hours  he  would  receive  no 
more  pay? 

Mr.  Carter :     Just  the  same. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  schedules,  however,  provide  that  en- 
gineers and  firemen  will  receive  a  day  for  one  hundred  miles  or 
less? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Or  ten  hours  or  less? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  an  engineer  or  fireman  were  thirty  seconds 
under  that  schedule,  each  of  them  would  be  entitled  to  a  day's 
pay,  would  he  not,  for  that  service! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  he  moved  an  engine — I  would  not  say  if 
he  ran  an  engine — but  if  he  moved  an  engine  thirty  feet,  under 
that  schedule  he  would  be  entitled  to  a  dav,  would  he  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Technicallv,  ves. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Do  you  think  that  is  the  practice? 

Mr.  Carter:     Oh.  no. 


612 

.Mr.  Pliillii)s:  Do  yon  tliiiik  aii>  great  proportion  of  men 
get  their  day's  pay  for  any  sncli  service? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  but  I  want  to  say  to  you  that  tech- 
nically ten  hours  or  less  means  thirty  seconds'  work,  and  one 
hundred  miles  or  less  means  ten  feet  of  travel;  but  in  practice 
no  such  abuse  of  it  is  ever  thought  of. 

^fr.  Piiillips:  I  l)elievf'  there  is  in  the  Bible  the  scriptural 
injunction,  "Thou  shalt  not  kill."  Would  you  understand  by 
that  that  you  were  forbidden  to  kill  a  fly? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  but  that  strictly  and  technically  you 
should  not  kill  anything,  not  even  time. 

Mr.  Phillii>s:  You  were  asked  a  question  about  divisions 
of  engines,  and  grouping  of  engines  according  to  weight  on 
drivers.  How  do  you  account  for  the  fact  that  on  engines 
weighing,  we  will  say  200,000  iwunds,  on  the  Rock  Island  Rail- 
road, engineers  are  paid  the  same  rate  as  they  are  paid  on 
engines  weighing  less  than  80,000  pounds  on  drivers? 

^Ir.  Carter:     How  do  I  account  for  it? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Or  can  you  account  for  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  T  cannot  account  for  it.  I  will  have  to  see 
Joe  McCray. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:     Is  there  any  way  to  explain  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  Or  rather,  it  is  not  McCray;  I  believe  it  is 
the  Engineers'  man.  I  cannot  see  how  you  could  determine  that 
on  a  large  Pacific  type  engine  weighing  practically  200,000 
pounds  on  di'ivers,  you  should  not  receive  more  pay  than  on  an 
eight  wheel  engine  weighing  less  than  80,000  pounds  on  drivers, 
not  only  on  account  of  the  weight  of  the  engine,  but  the  char- 
acter of  the  service  in  which  you  always  tind  these  engines. 
If  you  find  an  eight  wheel  passenger  engine,  you  do  not  find  it 
running  between  here  and  Davenport,  Iowa,  on  these  big  trains 
on  the  Rock  Island.  You  find  it  somewhere  else,  where  the  exac- 
tions are  not  so  great.  Now,  you  find  the  great  Pacific  type 
engine,  weighing  say  200,000  pounds  on  drivers,  in  just  such 
service. 

Undoubtedly  the  engineer  and  fireman  should  receive  more 
money  for  running  one  of  these  high  grade  passenger  trains  on 
the  Rock  Island  from  here  to  Davenport  than  for  running  per- 
ha]is  some  little  two  or  three  car  passenger  train  with  a  little 
eight  wheel  engine  weighing  80,000  ]>ounds  on  drivers.     They 


613 

earn  more  money  for  the  company.  Their  re^sponsibilities  are 
greater.  Their  productive  efficiency  is  greater,  and  there  is 
every  scientific  reason  for  having  a  liiglier  rate. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  Then  are  we  to  understand  that  your  pur- 
pose in  introducing  this  weiglit  on  drivers  basis  for  fixing  rates 
of  pay  for  engineers  and  firemen  is  tliat  the  pay  would  be  more 
fairly  fixed  t 

Mr.  Carter:  I  had  in  mind  carrying  out  the  expressed  opin- 
ions of  railroad  oflicials,  and  i)articularly  the  statements  of  the 
chairman  of  the  western  managers  to  us  in  1910,  and  the  prin- 
•cipal  witness  for  the  railroads  in  the  Engineers'  Arbitration  in 
the  East  in  1912.  I  think  he  said  they  thought  the  men  should 
have  their  wages  graduated  in  accordance  with  their  earning 
capacity  for  the  company.  1  think  they  said:  "We  cannot  get 
away  from  that  principle."  Now,  we  are  adhering  strictly  to 
that  principle.  It  is  the  other  fellow  who  is  trying  to  get  away 
from  it  now. 

Mr.  Philli))s:     Mr.  Stone,  do  you  care  to  ask  any  <|uestions? 

Mr.  Stone:  In  reaching  a  settlement  with  the  operating 
officials  of  these  various  lines  on  wage  agreements,  is  it  not  a 
fact  that  the  managing  officer  is  both  the  judge  and  the  jury  in 
the  case? 

Mr.  Carter :     He  tries  to  be.    Sometimes  he  is  not. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  case  you  cannot  reach  an  amicable  agree- 
ment, the  last  resort,  and  really  the  only  power  the  men  have, 
after  argument  has  failed,  is  a  strike,  is  it  not! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  also  a  fact  that  oftentimes  men  accept 
conditions  as  a  basis  of  settlement  that  are  not  satisfactory,  but 
accept  them  rather  than  go  on  strike  with  their  men  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  that  90  per  cent  of  the  cases  are  com- 
promised. The  men  on  the  one  hand  are  trying  to  get  what 
they  are  asking  for,  and  the  company's  official  on  the  other  is 
trying  to  keep  them  from  getting  anything,  and  they  generally 
compromise  on  something,  and  the  men  do  not  think  they  have 
got  enough,  and  the  company  thinks  they  have  got  too  much,  and 
there  it  is. 

Mr.  Stone :  Referring  back  to  the  wage  movements  of  1906, 
1907  and  1910,  was  either  one  of  them  satisfactory,  either  to  the 
Firemen's  Organization  or  the  Engineers? 


614 

Mr.  I'arti'i-:  For  tlie  Firemen 's  Organization,  1  should 
say  not. 

Mi-.  Stone:  llasc  yon  been  ahle  to  have  it  put  into  effect 
on  all  the  railroads  in  tlie  western  territory? 

Mr.  Carter:  Tlicic  is  an  evident  desire  on  the  part  of  some 
railroads  not  to  do  what  the  Board  of  Arl)itration  said  they 
should  do. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  the  result  is  that  the  men  did  not  get  what 
the  award  gave  them? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir.  Understand  the  award  expired  in 
twelve  months  after  May  1(5,  1910,  and  I  presume  that  lately 
either  side  would  have  the  right  to  do  what  they  wanted  to  do; 
but  in  wage  matters  there  is  only  one  side  that  can  do  anything, 
and  that  is  the  com{)any.  The  men  might  want  to  make  their 
wages  higher,  and  they  would  have  to  go  through  negotiations. 
I  think  it  is  generally  understood  that  when  a  settlement  is 
made,  even  through  ail)itration,  that  settlement  or  arbitration 
award  shall  remain  in  effect  until  formal  negotiations  are  taken 
up  to  change  it;  not  remain  in  effect  by  law,  but  by  consent 
of  both  inirties.  On  these  roads  in  the  west  they  have  refused 
to  abide  by  the  interpretation  of  the  Firemen's  Award,  as 
interpreted  by  the  Arl)itration  Board  themselves.  They  say 
that  it  should  be  weight  on  drivers,  and  not  size  of  cylinders. 

Mr.  Stone:  Coming  back  to  this  (juestion  of  wages  being 
reduced  during  times  of  depression,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  men  in 
chain  gang  freight  service  are  largely  ])iece  workers,  and  their 
wages  are  automatically  reduced  during  times  of  depression '! 

Mr.  Carter:  J  think  if  we  should  reduce  it  to  percentages, 
the  losses  of  engineers  and  firemen  because  of  reduction  of 
business  are  much  greater  than  the  losses  to  the  company. 

Mr.  Stone:  is  it  not  a  fact  that  on  many  of  these  roads,  at 
the  present  time,  we  are  experiencing  the  fact  that  men  in  chain 
gang  freight  service  are  assigned  to  regular  engines,  and  the 
company  refuse  to  i)nt  more  men  in  the  pools  because  it  will 
break  up  that  system? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  have  heard  so.  I  have  no  positive  infor- 
mation upon  the  subject. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  some  of  these  trains  are 
being  held  in  the  yards  at  terminals  at  the  present  time,  for  the 
men  to  comply  with  the  legal  time  for  duty  required  by  the 


615 

Hours  of  Service  Law,  and  are  then  run  out  as  soon  as  their 
rest  period  is  up? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  liave  heard  so,  Imt  I  cannot  testify  to  the 
accuracy  of  that. 

Mr.  Stone:  Coming  hack  to  the  small  switch  cHgiiies  at 
these  small  points,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  at  many  of  these  places 
they  are  required  to  switch  on  the  main  line  all  the  while,  and 
keep  out  of  the  way  of  all  first  class  and  second  class  trains  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  it  is  in  the  smaller 
yards  where  switch  engineers  and  firemen  arc  re([uire(l  to  be 
on  the  main  line  most  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  that  case  there  would  be  just  as  much  re- 
sponsibility on  the  man  in  the  small  yard  as  on  the  man  in  the 
large  yard,  would  there  not  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  There  are  other  conditions  that  offset 
it  in  the  large  yard ;  but  in  the  large  yards  they  often  switch  all 
day,  and  never  get  out  of  the  way  of  a  first  class  passenger  train. 

Mr.  Stone:  Speaking  of  that  yard,  that  little  insignificant 
yard — ** inconsequential,"  I  believe  was  the  word  used,  up  at 
the  end  of  a  branch,  that  had  ten  trains  a  day ;  can  you  conceive 
of  any  small,  inconsequential  yard  where  they  have  ten  of  these 
modern  trains  a  davf 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  when  you  liavt'  ten  trains  as  big  as 
they  come  today,  it  is  not  very  inconsequential.  I  want  to  say 
another  thing  in  regard  to  tlie  small  yard ;  sometimes  men  work 
just  as  hard  in  the  small  yards  as  they  jjossibly  can  in  the  large 
yards.  Sometimes  in  the  smaller  yards  they  never  get  a  chance 
to  eat,  hardly.  It  is  according  to  the  business  done,  not  accord- 
ing to  the  size. 

Mr.  Stone:  Referring  to  that  Mallet  engine  crew  laying 
at  the  terminal  two  or  three  hours  waiting  to  get  out  and  taking 
the  high  rate,  is  it  not  a  fact,  if  they  were  not  there,  if  they  were 
out  on  the  road  reeling  off  miles,  they  would  still  get  the  higher 
rate  for  that  engine  during  that  time '! 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir,  and  if  they  had  not  been  called  until 
the  proper  time,  they  would  have  been  in  bed  resting. 

Mr.  Stone:  When  you  call  a  man  otf  the  extra  board,  he 
is  called  for  any  engine;  he  takes  whatever  rate  he  is  ])aid  for 
that  trip,  whatever  rate  that  engine  takes? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 


616 

Ml.  Stone:  For  cxaiiipk*,  lie  may  run  a  Mallei  this  trip 
and  receive  the  higher  rate  and  run  an  8-wlieeler  the  next  trip 
and  take  the  lower  rate,  is  that  true? 

Mr.  Carter:     That  is  true. 

^Ir.  Stone:  Coniin.y  hack  lo  that  (lueslion  of  beinj^•  called 
lor  special  service.  I  l)elieve  you  said  that  the  man  was  guar- 
anteed the  amount  lie  would  make  on  his  run  while  he  was  on 
special  service.  Can  vou  refer  me  to  any  rule  in  any  schedule 
that  guarantees  any  such  thing? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  have  such  confidence  in  counsel  for  the  rail- 
roads that  when  he  says  a  thing  is  true  I  have  gotten  into  the 
habit  of  saying  yes.     1  (lon't  know  whether  that  is  true  or  not. 

Mr.  Stone:  AVell,  not  desiring  to  question  your  confidence, 
I  should  like  very  much  to  have  counsel  for  the  railroads  to  sub- 
mit to  me  a  list  of  roads  where  they  guarantee  that  that  man 
shall  l)e  \)i\'u\  the  same  as  he  would  make  on  his  run. 

Mr.  Slieean :  A  regularly  assigned  man,  was  the  (juestion, 
was  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Stone:     I  think  it  ^vas  a  reguhn'ly  assigiied  man. 

Mr.  Sheean:     I  will  try  to  look  it  up. 

Mr.  Stone :  Going  back  to  the  continuity  of  service  in  other 
trades,  if  engineers  and  firemen  Avere  paid  the  high  rates  paid 
ill  many  of  the  building  trades,  would  it  be  necessary  for  them 
to  work  niuhts  and  Sundays  and  holidays? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  one  of  the  first  demands,  or,  to  use  a 
milder  word,  propositions  of  the  engineers  and  firemen,  if  they 
got  the  rates  that  are  paid  in  other  classes  of  service,  they  would 
protest  against  working  more  than  eight  hours.  T  think  that 
would  particularly  a])ply  to  yard  service. 

The  Chairman :  Will  you  suspend  now,  Mr.  Stone !  We 
will  take  a  recess  to  2:30  o'clock. 

(Whereupon,  at  12  :.S0  o'clock  P.  M.,  a  recess  was  taken  until 
2::^,n  (,Vlo('k  V.  M.) 

After  Recess. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Chairman,  unless  the  other  side  desires 
to  ask  further  (|iiestions,  we  will  not  ask  any  more  questions  on 
the  direct. 

Mr.  Sheean:     We  have  no  further  questions. 


617 

The  Chairman  :  Just  one  moment.  A  member  of  the  Board 
desires  to  ask  some  questions. 

W.  S.  CARTER  was  recalled  for  further  examination,  and, 
having  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Nagel :  Mr.  Carter,  in  speaking  of  the  rule  of  seniority, 
I  understand  that  you  do  not  criticise  the  rule. 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel :     But  you  do  criticise  the  method  of  application? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir.  I  criticised  the  conditions  that  made 
the  adoption  of  the  rule  necessary. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Then,  if  the  adoption  of  that  rule  has  removed 
the  conditions,  you  have  nothing  further  to  criticise? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir.  I  have  explained,  however,  why  some 
men  apparently  earn  so  much  money,  is  because  of  their  age,  and 
should  not  be  taken  as  typical  of  all  the  men  in  the  service.  For 
instance,  of  a  hundred  men,  the  ten  oldest  men  would  be  able  to 
earn  ordinarily  much  more  money  than  any  other  ten  men  of 
the  hundred, 

Mr.  Nagel :  Then,  is  it  your  opinion,  that  the  human  factor 
enters  into  it  and  accentuates  an  uncertainty  which  is  inherent 
in  the  occupation  itself? 

Mr.  Carter:     It  has  been  so  considered. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Do  you  think  that  the  uncertainty  or  irregu- 
larity of  employment,  in  the  case  of  engineers  and  firemen,  can 
be  fairly  compared  to  the  uncertainty  which  obtains  in  the  case 
of  industrial  wage  earners? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  I  understand  the  question,  I  will  say  that 
what  is  known  as  panics  in  mill  industries,  throwing  men  out 
of  employment  at  certain  intervals  of  time,  we  find  on  railroads 
sometimes  two  and  three  times  a  year.  You  will  find  the  lists 
cut,  and  a  lot  of  men  out  of  service,  while  the  general  business 
of  the  country  is  not  aflFected. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Is  there  an  uncertainty  in  the  employment  of 
engineers  and  firemen,  which  is  constant? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel :     And  against  which  it  is  more  difficult  to  guard  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir;  except  as  I  say,  the  older  men,  by 
seniority,  are  assured  of  constant  employment. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Is  it  for  that  reason  that  you  seek  to  obtain, 
both  an  increase  of  rates  and  rules,  to  provide  against  the  un- 


618 

certainty  of  employment,  juul  to  obtain  a  greater  certainty  of 
nltiniate  compensation? 

Mr.  Carter:  With  regard  to  the  time  and  a  lialf  for  over- 
time, I  tliink  we  all  recognize  that  if  we  secure  that  in  this 
arbitration,  the  railroads  will  call  a  new  man  rather  than  have 
anotlier  man  remain  on  duty  nearly  sixteen  hours,  we  will  say. 
It  will  be  cheaper  for  them  to  do  so,  and  by  that  means  we  limit 
the  earnings  of  a  man  to  a  reasonable  day's  work,  and  there 
will  not  be  so  many  men  thrown  out  of  employment. 

Mr.  Park:  Mr.  Carter,  r.egardless  of  seniority,  is  it  not  a 
fact  that  the  work  is  gauged  by  the  wishes  of  the  men ;  that  is, 
on  certain  runs  where  three  men  are  assigned,  is  it  not  a  fact 
that  if  the  men  so  elect,  four  men  could  be  employed  on  that  run? 

Mr.  Carter :  Very  often  that  is  the  case,  but  it  is  not  always 
the  case. 

Mr.  Park:  Does  not  the  seniority  list  affect  the  younger 
men  more  than  the  older  men? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  but  there  is  a  medium  stage,  call  it  the 
chrysalis  stage,  when  you  are  changing  from  a  fireman  to  an 
engineer.  A  man  who  has  a  high  paid  passenger  run  and  is 
promoted,  usually  finds  his  earnings  are  decreased,  although  he 
is  an  engineer  after  his  promotion  and  was  a  fireman  l^efore, 
because  he  then  becomes  an  extra  engineer,  while  he  has  aban- 
doned the  best  passenger  run,  perhaps,  on  the  road,  and  he  has 
to  make  his  struggle  over  again,  with  the  understanding  that 
some  times  when  he  is  cut  off  the  extra  list,  he  gets  a  l)etter  job 
of  course,  gets  the  passenger  job  back;  but,  the  fact  remains, 
as  his  age  accumulates  there  is  an  ascending  vscale,  and  then  as 
there  is  a  promotion  he  starts  down  from  upward.  But,  there 
is  a  period  of  perhai)s  of  from  one  year  to  ten  years,  varying 
on  different  roads  and  on  different  occasions,  where  a  man  who 
is  a  fireman  on  a  regular  engine  and  who  is  then  the  engineer 
on  the  extra  list,  is  probably  earning  less  than  he  earned  l)efore 
his  promotion,  and  in  tliat  way  it  is  very  precarious. 

Mr.  Park:  Is  not  that  condition  of  employment  due  to  an 
adjustment  made  by  tlie  men  themselves,  as  to  seniority,  and  not 
on  the  part  of  the  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  it  is  a  necessary  condition  as  long  as 
we  promote  men.     If  we  hire  engineers,  they  suffer  worse,  be- 


619 

cause  when  this  depression  sets  in  they  have  no  work  at  all. 
They  are  like  the  firemen.     They  are  out  of  a  job. 

Mr.  Park:     That  is  all  due  to  seniority,  is  it  not? 
Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir;  somebody  has  to  go  probably,  and  it 
is  the  young  men  who  go  instead  of  somebody  else. 

Mr.  Park:  That  is  seniority.  The  youngest  man  goes,  and 
the  oldest  man  holds  the  position. 

Mr.  Charter:  The  only  effect  that  seniority  has  upon  it  is 
the  rigid  rule  as  to  who  will  go.  If  it  was  not  for  seniority  they 
might  pick  out  a  man  who  has  been  there  eight  years  and  say 
**We  do  not  need  you.    You  go." 

Mr.  Park :  The  employed  engineer  has  no  seniority  on  the 
fireman's  list. 

Mr.  Carter:     The  employed  engineer,  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:  He  has  no  seniority  as  a  fireman.  He  cannot 
go  back  as  a  fireman. 

Mr.  Carter:  And  he  suffers  worse  than  the  promoted 
engineer. 

Mr.  Park:     That  is  all  I  care  to  ask. 

Mr.  Nagel :  You  understand,  I  am  not  endeavoring  to  cross- 
examine.  I  want  to  get  what  light  I  can,  in  view  of  what  I  have 
listened  to. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:  In  opening  your  statement  you  undertook  to 
give  the  grounds  on  which  you  claim  rates  and  rules  should  be 
predicated.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  it  was  chiefly  the 
responsibility  and  efficiency  of  the  engineers  and  firemen,  and 
that  perhaps  these  factors  could  best  be  gauged  by  the  weight 
on  drivers.    Is  not  that  true? 

Mr.  Carter:     Not  exactly  in  my  statement ;  almost,  but  not 

Substantially  that? 

I  can  explain  the  difference. 

Your  statement  is  in  the  record? 

Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Afterward  a-ou  intimated  that  in  certain  con- 
tingencies the  rule  of  profit-sharing  might  be  invoked.  Now  I 
should  be  glad  to  know  whether  you  think  that  the  rule  of  profit- 
sharing  would  be  a  safe  guide  in  a  case  of  this  kind,  in  which 


quite. 

Mr. 

Nagel : 

Mr. 

Carter: 

Mr. 

Nagel : 

Mr. 

Carter : 

620 

you  ask  for  au  iiuToaso  oJ"  rates  and  for  better  rules,  and  for  a 
standardization  at  the  same  time. 

^Ir,  Carter :  I  was  asked  tliat  question,  and  my  answer  was, 
"Yes,  if  the  men  had  sniiervision  over  the  disbursements  of 
the  profits."  Now,  what  1  meant — perhaps  that  was  in  a  jocular 
manner — I  meant  that  if  we  could  apply  the  profits,  I  thought 
we  could  manage  to  get  a  good  wage  out  of  it. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Of  course,  the  jocular  element  is  not  in  the  rec- 
ord, and  I  should  like  to  know  whether  that  rule,  driven  to  its 
legitimate  conclusion,  would  not  present  to  us  the  question 
whether  we  could  standardize  rates  for  a  profitable  road,  and  for 
a  road  in  the  hands  of  a  receiver  at  the  same  time? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  I  do  not  think  that  could  be  done.  It 
would  not  be  practicable. 

Mr.  Nagel :  In  other  words,  you  are  dealing  with  a  condi- 
tion, not  a  theory,  and  your  demand  really  eliminates  that  con- 
sideration from  the  case,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  except  to  this  extent.  I  believe  we  were 
discussing  the  installation  of  electric  locomotives,  where  the 
labor  cost  was  greatly  reduced,  or  the  income  of  the  same  creAv, 
and  I  made  the  remark  that  the  profit  sharing  ought  at  least  to 
maintain  as  high  a  rate  in  electrical  service  as  was  formerly  paid 
in  steam  service. 

Mr.  Nagel :  In  other  words,  if  your  demands  are  to  be  met, 
it  will  be  necessary  to  consider  the  services  of  the  engineers  and 
firemen  upon  their  merits,  regardless  of  the  immediate  condi- 
tion prevailing  in  the  country,  and  regardless  of  the  condition 
of  any  particular  road.  Y^ou  are  asking  for  a  standardization 
for  the  entire  territory  west  of  the  Mississippi  River? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel :  And  it  will  therefore  have  to  stand  on  the  mer- 
its of  the  men.    Is  not  that  so? 

Mr.  Carter :  The  merits  of  the  men,  or  the  merits  of  the 
evidence  we  present  ?    Do  you  mean  the  merits  of  the  men  ? 

Mr.  Nagel :     I  mean  the  value  of  their  services. 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  I  would  take  it  so,  but  I  confess  that  there 
are  a  great  many  exceptions  to  the  rule. 

Mr.  Nagel:  You  can  always  obscure  a  record  by  making 
too  many  exceptions.  T  am  trying  to  get  at  the  general  con- 
siderations. 


621 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Now,  even  so,  we  have  to  deal  with  partieuhir 
conditions.  For  instance,  economic  conditions  in  different  parts 
of  this  great  territory  may  be  different ;  the  state  laws  may  vary 
greatly  within  that  territory,  and  so,  to  meet  your  views,  we 
would  have  to  eliminate  all  these  things  to  arrive  at  a  conclu- 
sion as  to  what  the  men  ought  really  to  have  for  their  work ; 
isn't  that  true? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  that  is  the  way  it  has  to  be  done ; 
taking  everything  into  consideration. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Now,  you  have  given  us  the  wages  of  employes 
in  a  number  of  industrial  lines,  and  yet  to  arrive  at  that  average 
wage  you  have  to  take  the  different  wages  that  govern  in  dif- 
ferent parts  of  the  territory  in  question,  and  in  doing  that  you 
really  are  compelled  to  emphasize  a  variation  which  j'ou  are  try- 
ing to  eliminate  in  your  demand  for  standardization  in  your  par- 
ticular case;  isn't  that  true? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  didn't  catch  that. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Well,  you  have  wages  from  65  to  75  or  80 
cents  an  hour  in  the  industrial  lines  in  different  parts  of  this 
territory.  You  average  them  to  show  what  a  reasonable  wage 
would  be,  and  in  doing  it  you  have  to  admit  that  different  wages 
obtain  in  different  parts  of  this  territory,  the  very  condition 
from  which  you  seek  to  escape  with  respect  to  your  own  de- 
mands I 

Mr.  Carter:  There  is  no  question  of  that.  I  think  there  is 
an  effort  on  the  part  of  all  to  standardize. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Is  there  any  reason  in  your  mind  why  stand- 
ardization should  be  insisted  upon  in  reference  to  locomotive 
engineers  and  firemen,  when  it  does  not  obtain  in  the  usual  in- 
dustrial employments  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  you  will  find  that  there  is  an  approxi- 
mate approach  to  standardization  in  the  list  of  wages  I  showed 
you  here,  with  slightly  varying  rates  on  account  of  conditions, 
but— 

Mr.  Nagel:  Bdfore  we  go  to  that,  as  I  remember  it,  even 
in  the  large  cities,  there  is  a  variation  anywhere  from  65  to  75 
cents  an  hour;  isn't  that  true? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  recall  that.  Do  you  mean  between 
Bohemian  unions  and  Hebrew  unions? 


622 

Ml.  Xaiifcl :     Xo,  tlR'  UK'ii  ill  a  jjaiticular  eiiiploynu'iit. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  thiiik  so,  not  in  the  same  employment. 
There  is  that  variation  between  one  class  of  employment  and 
another,  yes,  sir.  For  instance,  a  hod  carrier  does  not  get  as 
ninch  as  a  bricklayer. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Have  yon  any  table  to  show  what  wages  are 
paid  other  employes  of  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  I  have  made  no  investigation  along 
that  line  at  all. 

Mr.  Nagel :     Have  yon  any  idea  what  a  station  agent  gets  ? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir,  I  have  not. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Do  you  think  it  would  be  fair  to  have  sonie- 
tbing  ai)])roacliing  equalization  to  all  classes  of  employes? 

Mr.  Cart<M-:  T  am  (|uit<'  sure  station  agents  are  greatly 
underpaid. 

Mr.  Nagel :     Tliat  is  an  impression  that  I  have. 

Mv.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  railway  employes,  as  a 
lule,  are  a  little  bit  underpaid.  For  instance,  I  think  you  will 
find  in  the  city  of  St.  Louis,  from  whence  you  come,  that  the 
agreements  of  boiler  makers  and  machinists,  with  the  industrial 
plants  of  that  city,  carry  higher  rates  than  the  agreements  with 
the  railroads  entering  that  city. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Then,  would  a  fair  consideration  of  the  ques- 
tion which  we  have  before  us  involve  a  consideration  of  what 
other  employes  of  the  railroads  ought  to  be  paid! 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  not. 

Mr.  Nagel:  It  all  goes  to  fix  the  responsibility  of  the 
carrier. 

Mr.  Carter:  Xo,  sir,  I  don't  think  so.  I  Avill  tell  you  why 
I  did  not.  I  am  sure  that  if  railway  clerks  were  just  permitted 
to  organize  so  that  they  could  make  their  wants  kno^vn,  that  they 
would  get  much  more  money  than  they  get  now. 

Mr.  Nagel:  I  am  not  disputing  that.  I  am  asking  whether 
they  ought  to  get  more  money. 

Mr.  Carter:  They  should  get  more,  there  is  no  question 
of  it.  A  railroad  clerk  gets  less  money  perhaps,  cash,  than  he 
would  get  in  any  other  line  of  employment,  for  his  ability  and 
the  work  he  does;  but  you  know,  as  a  joke,  they  say  he  expects 
to  be  general  manager,  and  that  is  part  of  his  pay. 

Mr.  Nasrel :     T  am  jrlad  he  has  some  consolation.     How  do 


623 

the  rates  of  engineers  and  firemen  compare  with  the  compensa- 
tion of  captains  and  pilots  and  crew  on  steamboats? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  know.  I  haven't  any  idea.  I  have 
read  that  the  captains'  pay  on  the  ocean  liners  is  very  low,  so 
much  so  that  their  presents  or  perquisites  from  the  passengers 
amount  to  more  than  their  salary.  I  am  told  that  fifteen  or 
twenty  dollars  tip  to  a  Captain  is  almost  beneath  his  notice. 

Mr.  Nagel:     I  don't  know  that  that  is  so. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  understand  that  is  so.  I  have  been  over  the 
water,  but  I  would  not  venture  above  the  steward. 

Mr,  Nagel :  That  would  only  disclose  the  same  conditions ; 
it  would  not  be  much  of  an  argument  for  retaining  the  low 
compensation,  would  it?  But  you  don't  know  how  much  they 
get? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir;  but  I  have  read  that  they  get  very 
low  wages. 

Mr.'  Nagel :  Their  responsibility  and  efficiency  also  are 
perhaps  more  like  the  responsibility  and  efficiency  of  an  engi- 
neer and  fireman  than  the  ordinary  occupation  to  which  you 
would  turn? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  is  rather  a  supervisory  responsibility,  to 
see  that  somebody  else  does  it  instead  of  doing  it  himself.  Of 
course,  if  it  is  to  take  a  reckoning  as  to  latitude  and  longitude, 
he  has  his  first  officer  or  assistant  officer  generally  to  do  that. 
His  is  more  of  a  supervisory  capacity. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Wouldn't  you  say  the  pilot  has  a  good  deal  of 
responsibility? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  pilot  in  a  harbor  has  great  responsibility, 
but  the  wheelman  at  sea  simply  keeps  his  eye  on  the  binnacle, 
and  he  does  not  know  where  he  is,  nor  does  he  care. 

Mr.  Nagel :  I  have  been  with  them  at  times — I  did  not  think 
it  was  so  simple. 

Mr.  Carter :     In  a  storm,  you  mean? 

Mr.  Nagel :  In  all  sorts  of  weather.  However,  you  say  you 
don't  know  what  the  rate  is? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel :  I  wondered  whether  it  would  be  of  interest  to 
compare  them.  Not  that  it  is  conclusive  at  all,  but  it  would  be 
an  interesting  fact. 


624 

Mr.  Carter :  1  iniderstand  that  the  wages  paid  on  the  Traus- 
Atlantic  steamers  are  very,  very  low. 

Mr.  Nagel :    How  about  the  lake  steamers  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Tliey  have  had  several  strikes.  I  think  they 
have  succeeded  in  defeating  them,  and  they  are  very  low.  The 
lake  cai^tains  made  the  last  ei¥ort,  and  they  lost  too.  They  have 
struggk'd,  however,  to  benefit  their  condition. 

Mr.  Nagel :     That  is  all. 

^fr.  Park :  Mr.  Carter,  you  say  that  the  railroad  agents  are 
underpaid.    ITow  do  you  make  that  comparison? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  always  heard  so.  I  don't  know  whether 
it  is  true  or  not;  but  T  think  they  will  say  so. 

Mr.  Park:  Well,  are  they  underpaid,  as  compared  with  the 
wages  of  other  railroad  employes '? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  know.  I  have  always  heard  that  the 
agents  think  that  they  are  the  least  paid  people,  for  the  services 
they  perform,  in  the  country.  I  heard  that  or  learned  that  while 
1  was  in  train  service,  engine  service,  and  I  know  they  think  they 
are  awfully  under])aid.  Now%  I  do  not  mean  to  say  all,  because, 
there  may  be  some  I  have  no  knowledge  of  that  receive  high  rates 
of  pay ;  but  ordinarily,  I  mean. 

Mr.  Park:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Byram :  Do  you  think  it  would  be  possible  for  the  rail- 
roads to  find  the  means  to  raise  the  rates  of  all  their  employes 
that  are  considered  too  low,  including  those  of  the  enginemen,  to 
the  level  that  they  think  they  ought  to  be! 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  that  the  wages  in  any  industry  should 
be  commensurate,  and  I  believe  if  the  conditions  which  confront 
that  industry  are  such  that  there  is  not  the  revenue,  then  the 
conditions  should  be  changed. 

Mr.  Byram :     Yes,  if  that  were  possible. 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  I  don't  think  that  any  request  has  been 
made  for  an  increase  in  freight  rates  on  the  promise  that  they 
will  increase  the  wages  of  these  underpaid  railroad  employes. 
1  believe  you  would  get  it,  if  you  did  that. 

Mr.  Byram :  What  I  had  in  mind  was  the  general  statement 
that  you  made  that  all  employes  of  railroads  were  underpaid. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  said  ordinarily.  Now,  you  take  the  teleg- 
raphers, and  in  the  last  fifteen  or  twenty  years  they  have  ad- 
vanced their  wages  considerably. 


625 

Mr.  Byram :  They  are  still  very  much  below  the  eiiginemau 
and  trainman,  aren't  they? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  I  think  not.  If  you  take  a  young  man, 
when  he  first  enters  the  service  at  some  outlying  train  order  of- 
fice, compared  with  the  fireman,  I  think  he  gets  as  much  money 
or  more  than  the  fireman,  because  he  only  works  nine  hours, 
and  he  gets  a  month's  pay  for  thirty  or  thirty-one  nine-hour 
days.  But,  as  he  gets  more  important  stations,  why,  he  would 
get  better  pay. 

Mr.  Byram:  You  think  his  rate  compares  favorably  with 
the  fireman's? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  won't  say  that.    T  have  not  compared  them. 

Mr.  Byram :  What  I  had  in  mind  was  that  this  vast  army 
of  emploj^es  that  conduct  the  business  of  the  railroads,  assum- 
ing that  they  are  all  underpaid,  of  course,  to  do  away  with  that 
criticism  would  make  it  necessary  to  raise  their  pay.  Now, 
considering  the  fact  that  the  enginemen  are  only  comparatively 
a  small  portion  of  the  whole,  to  raise  the  pay  of  the  whole  num- 
ber would  require  a  vast  sum  of  money,  to  a  level  that,  in  your 
opinion,  would  make  them  adequate  payment.  Do  you  think  it 
would  be  possible  for  the  railroads  to  find,  under  the  circum- 
stances, enough  money  to  do  that! 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  it  would  be.  I  am  quite  sure  that  any 
failure  on  the  part  of  enginemen  to  get  an  increase  was  never 
reflected  in  an  increase  in  wages  of  these  other  people. 

Mr.  Byram:  That  isn't  what  I  meant.  Of  course  if  the 
railroads  did  not  have  the  money,  they  could  not  pay  it. 

Mr.  Carter :  Even  when  they  did  have  the  money,  they  did 
not  pay  it. 

Mr.  Byram :     It  has  never  been  undertaken — 
Mr.  Carter:     I  think  the  man  who  combines  with  his  fel- 
lowman  in  other  branches  is  immediately  discharged. 
Mr.  Byram:     I  didn't  get  that. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think,  if  a  railway  clerk,  on  most  of  the 
roads,  should  join  the  railway  clerks'  union,  he  would  be  imme- 
diately discharged.    That  is  the  only  method. 

Mr.  Byram:  I  wasn't  asking  you  about  the  method. 
Whether  it  would  be  possible  to  do  what  you  think  ought  to  be 
done,  whether  it  would  be  possible  for  the  railroads  to  produce 


626 

eiiough  moiioy  to  lovol  up  these  low  rates  you  speak  of,  and  to 
place  thorn  where  they  ought  to  be. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  so.  I  think  if  there  were  such  a  thing 
possible  as  to  put  it  to  a  referendum  vote  of  every  man  in  the 
United  States  that,  if  every  penny  that  he  individually  con- 
tributed in  increased  freight  rates  would  go  to  these  people,  he 
would  vote  yes. 

Mr.  Byram :     Yes,  provided  it  was  possible  to  get  it. 
Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Byram:     That  is  what  I  wanted  to  see,  whether  you 
had  an  idea  or  comprehension  of  the  very  large  sum  of  money 
which  would  be  necessary  to  do  what  you  think  ought  to  be  done. 
Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir,  it  would  take  a  great  deal  of  money. 
Mr.  Byram:     You  think  the  railroads  could  get  it? 
Mr.  Carter:     I  think  so.     I  will  tell  you  what  I  think.     I 
think  that  there  is  a  general  public  opinion,  perhaps  exem}>lified 
more  extensively  or  intensively  in  the  protective  tariff  theory 
than  anything  else,  to  show  that  the  American  ])eoi)le  are  willing 
to  pay  more  for  what  they  purchase,  if  it  will  help  the  Amer- 
ican working  man.    I  will  not  say  the  American  working  man 
gets  it,  understand,  but  that  makes  it  possible  for  the  Amer- 
ican working  man  to  get  it,  even  though  they  import  another 
cargo  of  immigrants  to  take  the  American  working  man's  place. 
Mr.  Byram:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Mr.  Carter,  you  claim  that  if  all  the  re&«ources 
of  the  railroads  were  employed  strictly  for  the  railroad  business, 
it  would  be  possible  to  do  more  for  all  the  employees  than  is 
now  being  done? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  don't  get  that,  Mr.  Nagel. 
Mr.  Nagel:     I  understood  jou  to  say,  that  if  you  had  the 
management  of  the  railroad,  that  a  good  deal  could  be  done 
that  is  now  not  being  done. 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  I  did  not  say  that. 
Mr.  Nagel :  It  was  not  very  far  from  that.  What  I  want  to 
lead  up  to  is  this:  don't  you  think  that  the  entire  rate  question 
of  railroads  ought  to  be  considered,  with  a  view  to  proper  service 
for  shipper  and  passenger,  and  proper  condition  for  employes? 
Mr.  Carter:  I  think  so,  yes,  sir;  and  I  think  the  shipper,  if 
vou  will  limit  him  to  the  manufacturer  out  here,  would  want  the 
railroad  employes  and  general  managers  to  work  for  about  one- 


627 

third  what  they  are  getting  now,  so  he  would  get  lower  rates. 
But,  if  you  will  refer  to  the  consumer,  the  man  who  makes  the 
final  payment,  I  am  quite  sure  that  they  are  very  liberal  if  they 
know  Avliere  the  money  is  going  that  they  contribute. 

Mr.  Nagel:  You  do  not  think  the  shipper  has  learned  the 
obvious  lesson  that  good  service  depends  upon  fair  compensa- 
tion? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  the  shipper  is  as  a  rule  selfish  and  is 
looking  out  for  his  own  interests. 

Mr.  Nagel :     Is  he  blind,  too  ? 

Mr.  Carter :     Xo,  he  is  simply  looking  out  for  the  shipper. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Is  he  looking  out  for  the  shipper,  if  he  insists 
upon  unreasonable  demands? 

Mr.  Cartel':  He  acts  like  he  was.  He  protests  against  any 
increase  of  freight  rates,  and  he  protests  against  any  improve- 
ment of  conditions  that  does  not  benefit  him. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Properly  speaking,  do  not  the  interests  of  the 
shipper  and  the  passenger  and  the  employe  of  the  railroad  hang 
together?    Is  it  possible  to  serve  two  at  the  expense  of  one? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:     Successfully? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  I  think  that  the  shippers  are  not  com- 
plaining of  the  increases  in  passenger  rates  that  are  now  being- 
instituted;  but  you  just  touch  their  freight  rates  and  see  how 
quickly  they  will  kick.  The  passenger  rates  may  increase  right 
along  and  the  shipper  sits  quiet  and  says  nothing,  but  you  just 
touch  his  freight  rates,  and  hear  him  complain. 

Mr.  Nagel:  I  thought  the  truth  was  beginning  to  dawn  on 
us.    That  is  all  I  desire  to  ask. 

The  Chairman:     Proceed  with  your  testimony. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Mr.  Carter,  you  made  the  statement,  I  be- 
lieve, in  connection  with  a  previous  exhibit,  that  the  earnings 
of  engineers  and  firemen  were  variable  for  the  first  few  years 
of  their  service  with  the  railroad  companies.     Is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  you  compiled  any  data  or  information 
tending  to  show  the  variable  earnings  of  engineers  and  firemen 
during  the  first  few  years  of  their  service  as  such? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.   Phillips:     I  have  here  a  volume  entitled  ''Earnings 


628 

of  Loconiotivo  Engfiiu'cit;  and  Firemen  lor  First  Few  Years  in 
Service,  and  Effect  Thereon  of  Fluctuations  in  Railroad  Busi- 
ness."   Do  you  identify  this  as  the  work  you  have  prepared? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  do. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  If  the  Board  please,  we  desire  to  introduce 
this  as  Exhibit  No.  8. 

(The  pamphlet  so  offered  and  identified  was  received  in 
evidence  and  tliereupoii  marked  "Employes'  Exhibit  No.  8, 
received  in  evidence  December  8,  1914.") 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  will  you  please  explain  to  the 
Board  the  manner  in  which  this  was  compiled,  and  the  tables 
tliat  are  contained  herein  prepared? 

Mr.  Carter :  Almost  a  year  ago,  several  montlis  before  an 
agreement  was  reached  to  arbitrate  these  matters,  a  question 
arose  as  to  the  real  effect  of  fluctuations  in  railroad  business 
upon  the  men  in  the  service. 

I  think  it  w^as  in  January  last  that  question  forms  were  sent 
out  to  divisions  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers 
and  lodges  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Engi- 
men,  asking  them  to  give  certain  information  in  regard  to  the 
number  of  engineers  and  firemen  a^jpearing  on  the  lists  at  dif- 
ferent times,  and  the  earnings  of  the  men  but  recently  employed, 
and  many  other  questions  of  that  character. 

The  letter  reached  its  destination  in  most  instances,  when  it 
was  learned  that  the  local  officials  were  reluctant  to  give  the 
necessary  information,  or  permit  the  members  of  these  lodges 
and  divisions  to  get  information  from  the  records.  About  that 
time,  however,  we  received  a  letter  from  the  chairman  of  the 
managers  connnittee,  Mr.  Tinsman,  who  was  the  chairman  at 
that  time,  saying  that  he  had  sent  out  a  circular,  and  had  sug- 
gested that  any  information  that  should  be  furnished  would  come 
through  the  managers  committee,  and  very  kindly  offered  to 
furnish  us  any  information  that  we  desired. 

At  the  conferences  it  was  agreed  upon  as  to  about  what  we 
wanted  to  know,  and  in  the  course  of  a  few  months,  through 
the  kindness  of  the  managers  committee,  we  received  a  large 
number  of  reports  communicating  the  information  that  we  de- 
sired. These  reports  were  filed  in  sheet  form,  and  were  so  used, 
because  there  was.no  time  to  wait  for  the  binding;  hut  finally 
thev  were  bound  in  twentv-one  volumes. 


629 

Mr.  Phillips:     Have  you  those  twenty-one  volumes  herein 

Mr.  Carter :     They  are  here. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  please,  we  desire  to  introduce 
the  original  twenty-one  volumes.  They  are  numbered  consecu- 
tively. We  offer  them  as  corrol^orative  evidence  of  exhibit  No. 
8,  which  is  a  compilation  from  these  volumes,  or  a  condensed 
statement  of  the  information  contained  within  the  twenty-one 
volumes. 

Mr.  Nagel:     That  is  a  condensed  statement  is  it? 

Mr.  Phillips:  This  is  a  condensed  statement,  the  tables 
herein  being  derived  from  the  information  contained  in  the 
twenty-one  volumes,  and  this  is  what  I  presume  would  be  termed 
supporting  evidence,  or  supporting  data. 

The  Chairman:  Have  you  more  than  one  copy  of  these 
records  ? 

Mr.  Phillips :  These,  Mr.  Chairman,  are  the  originals  fur- 
nished by  the  railroads.  I  do  not  think  we  have  duplicate 
copies ;  and  if  you  will  pardon  the  suggestion,  I  doubt  if  it  will 
be  advisable  for  the  Board  to  refer  to  these ;  but  they  are  here 
for  the  information  of  the  Board,  for  reference,  if  you  deem 
them  advisable. 

The  Chairman:  And  not  to  l)e  offered  as  a  ])art  of  the 
record  in  this  case. 

Mr.  Phillips:  They  are  simply  filed  as  an  exhibit  for  the 
purpose  of  information  corroborative  of  this  exhibit  No.  8. 

The  Chairman :  In  order  to  avoid  that,  you  may  just  offer 
to  file  them  and  we  will  keep  them  for  such  purposes  as  we  may 
desire  in  the  consideration  of  this  case.  Otherwise  you  would 
have  to  have  a  copy  made  in  order  that  one  copy  might  be  filed 
with  the  court  record,  and  another  transmitted  to  the  Board  of 
Mediation  at  Washington. 

Mr.  Phillips :     That  is  entirely  satisfactory,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  We  will  file  them  for  the  reference  and  in- 
formation of  the  Board  of  Arbitration. 

The  Chairman:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  One  thing  I  desire  to  make  ])lain  is,  if  there  is 
any  question  in  regard  to  any  of  the  figures  in  this  Exhibit  8, 
here  is  the. data  to  prove  it.    It  is  simply  corroborative. 

The  Chairman :     Verv  well. 


630 

Mr.  I'liillips:  That  beiu.i^-  true,  will  it  be  proper  or  neces- 
sary, Mr.  (Miairinaii,  that  these  volumes  take  an  exhibit  numl)er? 

The  Chairnian  :  Not  at  all.  If  they  took  an  exhibit  number 
they  would  I>ecome  a  i)art  of  the  record,  and  as  such  a  copy 
would  have  to  be  filed  here  and  a  copy  transmitted  to  the  Board 
of  Mediation  at  Washini»ton ;  and  it  is  to  avoid  tliat  that  I  make 
the  suggestion  that  you  just  simply  offer  them  as  information. 

Mr.  Philli]>s:  If  there  is  no  objection  on  the  part  of  the 
other  side,  we  arc  perfectly  agreeable  to  that,  and  the  exhibit 
numbers  now  on  each  one  will  be  disregarded,  and  we  will  number 
our  next  exhibit  accordingly. 

The  Chairman:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  This  information,  T  understand,  Mr.  Carter, 
was  furnished  you  by  the  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     By  mutual  agreement! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Upon  recjuest  of  the  representatives  of  the 
engineers  and  firemen  f 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  page  4,  Mr.  Carter,  of  your  exhibit,  is  a 
form  designated  form  15.  Is  this  similar  to  the  forms  contained 
in  these  volumes,  which  have  just  been  referred  to  the  board? 

Mr.  Carter:  This  form  15  extends  over  two  pages  and 
should  be  so  read.  Reading  from  page  4  to  page  5.  It  is  a  repro- 
duction, as  near  as  i)ractical)le  in  its  original  form,  of  a  typ- 
ical form  15.  This  is  the  Colorado  &  Southern  Railway,  but  the 
same  form  is  practically  used  for  other  railroads. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Will  you  explain  this  form,  Mr.  Carter,  and 
some  of  tlic  information  brought  out  in  the  detail? 

Mr.  Carter:  By  reading  the  left  column,  numbered  from 
one  down  to  eight,  across  the  two  pages,  you  will  note  the  ques- 
tions asked ;  and  then  under  the  different  headings  of  seniority 
districts,  you  will  note  that  it  ap]ilies  as  applied  to  each  of  those 
seniority  districts. 

The  last  column  shows  the  same  information  for  the  entire 
road.  It  shows  the  number  of  engineers  on  the  Engineers'  List 
on  February  1,  1913.  It  shows  the  number  of  engineers  on  the 
Engineers'  List  on  February  1,  1914. 


631 

It  shows  the  firemen  on  the  Firemen's  List  foi-  hotli  of  the 
dates  named. 

The  third  question,  question  3  (a),  shows  the  number  of 
years  of  seniority  as  an  engineer,  of  the  oldest  firemen  firing 
on  February  1,  1914,  and  gives  tlie  name  of  the  oklest  fireman 
in  each  seniority  district. 

For  instance,  the  Wyoming  Seniority  District,  the  okk^st 
fireman  on  that  district  was  named  T.  J.  Krafezik.  He  liad  three 
years  seniority  as  an  engineer.  Tliat  is,  three  years  iiad  elai)sed 
since  he  was  first  promoted  to  the  ])osition  of  an  engineer,  and 
3'et  at  the  same  time,  February  ],  1914,  he  was  back  firing. 

Now,  in  the  Ft.  Collins  Seniority  District,  a  man  named 
Smith  only  had  one-(iuarter  of  a  year's  seniority  as  an  engineer. 

On  the  Clear  Oreek  Seniority  District,  the  fireman  had  ten 
years'  seniority. 

On  the  Pueblo  Seniority  District,  he  had  four  vears'  senior- 
ity. 

Platte  Canon  Seniority  District,  fourteen  years. 

Ijeadville-Gunnison,  twelve  years'  seniority. 

Southern  District,  four  years'  seniority. 

Now,  that  does  not  mean  seniority  as  a  fireman,  but  as  an 
engineer.  That  is,  these  men  had  been  running  at  the  dates 
named  before. 

There  are  some  explanations,  however,  following  three  3(b) 
that  are  not  clear  in  my  mind. 

For  instance,  on  the  Clear  Creek  district  it  is  said  that  so 
far  as  G.  Williamson  is  con,cerned,  he  has  ten  years  seniority  as 
an  engineer,  yet  they  say  "Used  him  in  emergency  cases  only". 
Evidently  the  seniority  does  not  apply  there. 

The  totals  for  the  road  are  shown  as  I  liave  stated,  iu  the 
right  column. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  And  down  on  the  next  i)age  of  the  same  table 
are  shown — 

Mr.  Carter:     The  number  of  engineers. 

Mr.  Phillips:     The  number  of  engineers  set  back  living? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  the  number  of  engineers  set  back  firing  as 
of  February  1, 1914. 

The  number  of  engineers  on  the  extra  list. 

The  number  of  firemen  who  are  on  the  Firemen's  Extra  List. 

The  number  of  firemen  on  each  seniority  district  laid  ofl:' 


632 

siiK'c  tlu'  y(>iiiiii:«'st  tironu'ii  letaincd  in  the  j^ervico  was  employed, 

Tlie  iimiiber  of  engineers  i)ronioted  since  January  1,  1912. 

Tlie  nuni1)er  of  engineers  hired  since  January  1,  11)12. 

And,  the  nunil)er  of  firemen  liired  sin,ce  January  1,  1912. 

Mr.  riiillips:  Mi-.  Carter,  on  that  hist  I  note  the  number 
of  tiremen  liired  since  January  1,  1912,  on  that  railroad  is  235; 
the  total  iiuniher  of  firemen  on  the  list  on  February  1,  1913,  was 
148,  and  on  Februar>  1,  1!)14.  was  Kil.  How  do  you  account  for 
that? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  caiiiK^t  account  for  it  unless  the  men  were 
dismissed  by  the  comi)any  because  they  could  not  fill  the  re- 
quirements, or  they  could  not  stand  the  Mork;  or  they  could  not 
stand  the  low  earnings.  T  do  not  know  which.  Something  was 
wrong;  they  wouldn't  stay. 

Mr.  .Philli])s:     This  is  a  sam])le  form,  T  understand? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  form  15, 

Mr.  l*liiHi]>s:     You  have  a  similar  form  for  each  of  the  rail- 


road 


; 


Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir,  I  have  them  here  in  these  volumes. 

Mr,  Pliillii)s:  Yes,  I  so  understand.  The  next  page  now, 
]>age  6,  I  find  form  16,  Will  you  please  explain  the  purpose  of 
form  16? 

^Ir.  Carter:  Form  16  shows  the  wages  earned  as  engineers, 
by  engineers  who  have  been  promoted  since  January  1,  1912. 
This  particular  form  is  reproduced  from  the  original  for  the 
Chicago  division  of  the  Illinois  Central  Eailroad,  known  as  form 
16,  and  that  extends  over  two  ])ages  also. 

You  will  understand  that  there  are  many,  many  sheets  just 
like  form  1(5,  but  this  is  just  one  of  them  picked  at  random,  I 
think  yon  will  find  many  of  them  very  similar  to  this,  on  different 
roads, 

Mr.  I*liilli])s  :  Mr,  Carter,  you  say  this  form,  as  the  caption 
indicates,  shows  the  wages  earned  as  engineers,  by  engineers  who 
have  been  i»romoted  since  January  1,  1912. 

Take  the  first  one  there,  just  for  example,  L.  R.  Proudfit; 
earnings  shown  in  January,  1912,  that  would  indicate  that  he 
was  ]>r()moted  in  that  month,  would  it  not? 

Mr,  Carter :  He  would  not  have  been  reported  on  form  16  if 
he  was  ])romoted  before  that  month. 

Mr.    Philli|ts:     T  wouM  so  take  it  from  the  caption  of  the 


633 

list.  Now,  on  down  the  list,  the  amounts  shown  in  the  several 
months  indicate  his  earnings  as  an  engineer  for  those  months. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Some  of  the  forms  are  blank  down  there; 
how  do  you  explain  that?  That  is  the  space  following  the 
month  is  blank. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  presume  these  blank  months  are  months 
when  he  was  cut  off  the  Engineers'  Extra  List  and  back,  firing. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  the  total  at  the  bottom  there  would 
indicate  his  annual  earnings  as  an  engineer,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  total  there  is  his  earnings  for  the  entire 
year,  as  an  engineer.  It  does  not  show  what  he  earned  while 
he  was  back  firing. 

Mr.  Phillips :  No,  but  it  shows  his  earnings  for  those  sev- 
eral months,  or  for  the  months  worked  as  an  engineer? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     During  the  year  1912? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  there  is  a  continuation  for  the  same 
man  in  the  first  column  on  the  next  page? 

Mr.  Carter:     For  the  year  1913? 

Mr.  Phillips:     For  the  year  1913. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  also  show  for  January  and  February, 
1914.  In  this  particular  case  there  apparently  being  no  earn- 
ings, is  that  right? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  he  was  set  back  in  Augiist,  1913,  and 
did  not  run  any  more  for  the  period  covered  in  this  report. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  next  page  now,  page  8,  form  17,  wages 
earned  as  engineers,  by  engineers  who  have  been  hired  since 
January  1,  1912.  Would  this  show  the  same  information  for 
hired  engineers  as  is  shown  for  promoted  engineers  in  the  pre- 
vious tables? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  You  see  the  senioritv  district  is  not 
named  there,  but  we  have  a  circle  figure  1  and  the  reference 
says  there  is  ''Only  one  seniority  district  on  this  railroad.'* 
That  is  the  Canadian  Northern  Railway. 

You  will  note  that  the  lines  are  entirely  blank  from  January 
to  September,  1912,  inclusive,  and  I  account  for  this  with  the 
understanding  that  no  engineers  Avere  hired  during  that  period. 


634 

Business  must  have  picked  up  in  October,  1912,  and  November, 
and  you  see  how  tliese  men  went  to  work  there,  and  when  they 
went  to  work. 

Mr.  I'hillips:  It  would  appear  from  this  sample  form  that 
these  men  who  began  work  in  the  fall  of  1912  continued  in  1913, 
and  many  of  them  worked  but  little  in  1913.    Is  that  apparent? 

Mr.  Carter:  There  were  some  of  them  only  made  a  month 
here  and  there.  Some  of  them  didn't  make  any.  Now,  it  is 
possible  some  of  those  men  might  have  been  dismissed  from  the 
service. 

;Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  on  the  next  page,  page  10,  form  18, 
wages  earned  by  firemen  who  have  been  hired  since  January  1, 
1912,  the  same  information  is  given  for  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  That  is  the  Hannibal  Division  of  the 
Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  Railroad.  You  will  understand 
that  there  might  be  more  pages  than  that.  That  is  only  a  sample 
case. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  they  are  all  for  different  railroads,  these 
are  not  for  the  same  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Phillips :  These  are  samples  for  the  purposes  of  expla- 
nation ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Just  to  show  what  those  same  forms  in  the 
twenty-one  volumes  would  look  like. 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  originals  of  these  forms,  as  well  as  the 
originals  for  all  the  others,  would  be  found  in  the  volumes  filed 
with  the  Board? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes;  it  makes  up  twenty-one  volumes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  understood  you  to  say,  Mr.  Carter,  that  all 
of  these  reports  were  furnished  by  the  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter :     Very  kindly  furnished  by  the  railroads. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  Have  you  attempted  to  verify  the  accuracy 
of  the  figures  contained  therein? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  we  would  not  have  time  to  do  that. 
We  accepted  the  totals  shown  for  each  year  as  being  accurate, 
and  I  do  not  know  whether  a  check  of  those  pages,  or  any  of 
those  pages,  would  show  an  inaccuracy.  We  have  never  attempted 
to  check  them  because  it  would  have  been  impossible  for  us  to 
have  done  so  in  the  limited  time.       Wliere  it  savs,  Proudfit 

V         7 


635 

$291.39,  in  1913,  we  divided  that  by  the  number  of  months  that 
he  worked. 

Now,  please  understand,  that  the  average  was  unfair  to  the 
men,  for  this  reason — well,  maybe  we  can  show  it  better  by  turn- 
ing to  page  9,  which  is  the  lower  portion  of  form  17,  for  hired 
engineers. 

You  will  note  that  on  page  9,  in  the  fifth  column,  is  H.  I. 
Moore.  I  took  that  name  at  random.  The  others  are  verv  simi- 
lar.  You  see  that  he  worked  in  November  and  December  in 
1912.  Now,  in  1913  he  worked  in  January  and  February  as  a 
hired  engineer,  and  then  for  March,  April,  May,  June,  July  and 
August  he  did  not  earn  a  penny.  He  was  laid  off.  Then  he  be- 
gins to  work  again  in  September,  and  he  works  all  the  rest  of 
the  time  down  to  December,  and  his  total  earnings  for  the  year 
are  shown  to  have  been  $763. 

Now,  in  reaching  his  monthly  average,  in  a  waj^  that  was 
very  unfair  to  him,  I  only  counted  the  six  months  that  he  did 
work,  and  divided  the  total  amount  of  his  earnings  by  the  six 
months  that  he  did  work;  while  really  in  fairness  to  the  man 
himself  the  total  earnings  for  the  year  should  have  been  divided 
by  twelve  months,  w^hich  would  have  shown  his  monthly  earn- 
ings to  have  been  just  one-half  of  what  I  have  shown  them.  I 
am  taking  the  position  that  possibly  he  earned  something  at 
some  other  business  during  the  six  months  that  he  was  laid  off. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Would  an  engineer  laid  off  under  such  con- 
ditions be  permitted  to  enter  the  service  of  another  railroad  com- 
pany as  engineer,  under  the  general  schedule  rules? 

Mr.  Carter:     Sometimes  they  do,  but  not  usually. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Usually  to  enter  the  service  of  another  com- 
pany severs  connection  with  the  company  by  which  laid  off? 

Mr.  Carter:  Unless  there  is  a  special  arrangement.  Take 
particular  roads,  like  the  iron  ore  roads  up  north,  they  expect 
their  men  in  the  winter  time  to  go  elsewhere  and  get  employment 
if  they  can. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  please  turn  to  page  13,  and  explain  this 
table  briefly,  in  order  that  it  may  be  understood, 

Mr.  Carter:  This  is  inserted  not  really  as  a  table,  but  as 
an  explanation  of  how  the  conclusions  reached  in  the  tables  were 
brought  about,  and  perhaps  to  show  what  we  had  to  do  in  order 
to  accomplish  results.    It  is  given  by  roads,  subdivided  just  as 


636 

tliey  appear  on  the  forms  as  furnished  by  the  companies.  You 
Mill  find  the  numl)er  of  enj^ineers  reported  by  each  subdivision, 
and  the  number  of  computations  which  were  necessary  to  reach 
the  average  earnings  of  a  i)articular  man  per  month. 

By  turning  to  page  14,  which  is  a  contiimation  of  the  same 
tabular  statement,  you  will  note,  that  in  order  to  prepare  this 
table,  we  had  to  make  the  following  computations  from  the 
twenty-one  volumes  of  original  reports. 

The  total  number  of  promoted  engineers  reported  was  4,098. 

The  number  of  hired  engineers  reported  was  1,296,  and  the 
number  of  firemen  hired  was  23,919. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  give  in  a  column  there  the  number  of 
.computations.    What  do  you  mean  by  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  Why,  it  is  to  show  what  work  it  was  to  get 
this  up.  There  were  over  60,000  computations  to  find  the  average 
earnings  per  month,  and  that  was  done  twice. 

Mr.  Phillips:  On  the  next  page,  page  15,  without  reading 
the  entire  matter,  I  note  that  you  say  a  typewritten  transcript 
was  made,  and  average  earnings  reached,  and  so  forth.  This  is 
compiled  into  five  volumes.  That  is  the  substance  of  the  para- 
graph. 

Mr.  Carter:     The  first  paragraph  there  states: 

''From  the  data  found  in  the  twenty-one  volumes  of  forms 
15, 16, 17  and  18,  prepared  by  the  railroads,  and  from  information 
compiled  therefrom  in  typewritten  derivative  tables  I,  II,  III,  IV, 
V  and  VI  (six  volumes),  the  information  presented  in  this  re- 
port is  derived.  For  convenience  this  matter  is  presented  in  nine 
tables,  as  follows."    Xow,  where  are  the  five  volumes? 

Mr.  Stone:     You  took  them  aw^ay. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  please,  there  are  five  volumes, 
in  addition  to  those  already  furnished. 

Mr.  Carter:     Six  volumes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  they  are  at  your  disposal  for  the  same 
purposes  of  reference  and  information. 

The  Chairman:     All  right. 

Mr.  Carter :  If  at  any  time  you  want  an  explanation  as  to 
what  those  five  volumes  are,  we  shall  be  glad  to  make  it,  al- 
though I  intend  to  do  it  here  before  we  file  them. 

Mr.  Stone :    You  had  better  do  it  now. 

Mr.  Carter :     Can  I  get  one  of  the  volumes  ? 


637 

Mr.  Pliillii^s :     I  have  no  copy  here. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  will  send  and  get  one  of  the  five  large  vol- 
umes, and  the  small  volume,  number  VI. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  this  first  paragraph  you  say  you  have 
five  volumes,  and  in  the  next  paragraph,  the  two  line  paragraph, 
I  note  you  say  ' '  Tj^oewritten  tables  IV,  V  and  VI  were  derived 
from  information  found  in  Forms  14  and  15  and  have  been 
bound  in  one  volume." 

Then  the  five  which  you  have  explained,  and  the  one  made 
up  of  other  tables,  constitute  the  six  volumes  which  you  have 
offered,  do  they  not  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Now,  please  explain  them. 

Mr.  Carter:  This  is  Volume  1,  of  the  five  volumes,  which 
are  the  first  derivative  tables  from  the  twenty-one  volumes.  In 
these  five  volumes  you  will  find  the  name  of  every  man  that 
appears  in  the  twenty-one  volumes,  and  opposite  his  name  shows 
the  number  of  months  he  worked  each  year,  and  his  average 
earnings  for  each  month  for  the  years  1912,  1913  and  1914. 
Then,  it  shows  the  number  of  months  he  w^orked  covering  this 
entire  period  of  two  years  and  two  months,  and  his  average 
earnings  for  the  entire  period. 

The  last  column  shows  the  number  of  months  in  which  he 
did  not  work  at  all  during  this  period. 

In  reaching  that  conclusion  I  did  not  include  any  months 
antedating  his  first  appearance  in  the  reports.  For  instance,  if 
he  had  appeared  as  an  engineer  or  a  fireman  in  December  of 
1913,  I  took  it  for  granted  that  that  was  his  first  service;  and, 
if  he  worked  in  December  and  did  not  work  in  January,  but  did 
work  in  February,  I  accepted  it  as  a  fact  that  he  had  only  been 
in  the  service  of  the  company  three  months,  one  of  which  months 
he  did  not  work  at  all,  and  the  other  two  he  did. 

There  are  five  volumes  of  this  typewriting,  and  I  think  an 
exact  reproduction  of  the  information  obtained  in  the  twenty- 
one  volumes;  except,  instead  of  showing  the  monthly  earnings 
here,  are  shown  the  average  monthly  earnings  and  the  number 
of  months  worked.  There  are  five  of  those,  numbered  from  1 
to  5.  This  one  which  I  have  here,  which  we  thought  we  were 
going  to  introduce  and  make  it  an  official  record,  is  taken  from 
Form  15.    There  are  three  tables,  tables  4,  5  and  6. 


638 

Table  4  shows  tlic  oii.niiiecis  longest  in  ser\ice,  as  sucli, 
firinic  locomotives  on  P^ebniaiy  1,  1914. 

Mr.  Pliilli])s :  Does  your  table  4  as  contained  in  the  vohiiue 
you  are  explMininu-  Ihci'c  l.car  the  same  numl)er  as  table  4  in  the 
other? 

Air.  Carter:  It  lias  nothiui;-  to  do  with  it,  except  that  the 
information  contained  in  the  exhibit  was  derived  from  this. 

The  tables  were  j^repareil  for  the  purpose  of  preparin<? 
these  tables.  This  is  rather  a  second  derivative  table  from 
the  twenty-one  volumes;  and  the  reason  I  thought  this  should 
have  been  filed  is,  because,  they  have  great  bearing  upon  the 
subject,  lait  we  have  only  one  copy. 

Table  ."3  shows  the  number  of  engineers  on  the  list  February 
1,  and  other  information  found  in  Form  15  filed  by  the  railroads. 

Table  ()  shows  information  concerning  firemen.  But,  upon 
these,  first  on  the  twenty-one  volumes  of  original  reports  and 
then  upon  the  six  vohimes  of  those  averages,  and  tlie  one  vol- 
ume there,  this  book,  Exhibit  8,  has  been  founded. 

Mr.  Phillips:  This  is  a  condensed  compilation  showing  the 
totals  and  the  averages  and  the  details  in  a  briefer  form  than  it 
ai»i)ears  in  the  numerous  volumes  filed! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  with  certain  modifications. 

Mr.  Philli]is :  Please  turn  to  page  38  of  your  Exhibit  8. 
We  have  table  9  beginning  on  page  38,  ''Monthly  Earnings  of 
Locomotive  Engineers  Promoted  on  Certain  Western  Railroads 
since  January  1,  1912,  for  the  Alonths  of  February,  June  and 
October  of  1913,  and  February,  1914." 

This  first  table  apparently  is  for  the  Atchison,  Topeka  & 
Santa  Fe  Railroad  system  (Eastern  Lines).  Why  did  you  se- 
lect those  four  months? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  selected  February,  1914,  because  it  was  the 
last  month  reported;  and  for  purposes  of  comparison  I  selected 
Fel)ruary,  1913,  which  was  just  the  twelve  month  period  preced- 
ing. 

Then,  I  selected  two  other  months,  one  of  which  usually 
shows  the  dull  month  of  the  year,  which  is  June,  and  the  other 
which  usually  shows  the  busy  month  of  the  year,  which  is  Octo- 
ber. 

I  showed  for  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  and  other 
roads,  as  will  be  noted  in  the  index,  what  the  earnings  of  the 


639 

men  were  who  had  been  employed  or  promoted  since  January 
1,  1912,  for  those  four  months. 

Now, I  am  quite  sure  that  with  the  exception  of  October,  1913, 
they  will  not  show  very  much  variation,  except,  as  I  said,  June 
is  usually  a  dull  month,  and  you  can  see  about  where  February 
of  both  years  will  fall,  and  you  will  notice  how  busy  they  were 
in  October. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  did  not  attempt  to  show  the  earnings  for 
all  months  of  that  year,  then? 

Mr.  Carter:  Just  for  the  four  months  out  of  the  twenty- 
six  month  period  I  arbitrarily  selected  those  four  months,  as 
showing  how  the  earnings  would  vary  in  different  months  in  one 
year's  period,  the  purpose  being  to  show  that  from  February, 
1913,  to  February,  1914,  there  were  all  kinds  of  variations  in 
traffic,  or,  rather  variations  in  earnings,  which  were  almost  the 
same  as  the  traffic. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  you  say  February,  1913,  and 
February,  1914,  inclusive.  That  would  be  a  thirteen  month 
period,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     You  said  26  months;  I  think  you  meant  13. 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  I  said  that  in  this  period  covered  here,  a 
twelve  month  period,  which  is  really  a  thirteen  month  period, 
it  included  all  the  earnings  for  all  the  men  who  had  been  em- 
ployed or  hired  in  the  twenty-six  months  period  since  January 
1,  1912. 

Now,  to  show  how  completely  that  has  been  carried  out,  you 
find  many  names  there  where  there  is  nothing  opposite  their 
names,  and  the  statement  is  made,  no  services  for  these  months. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  you  compiled  these  tables  for  all  of  the 
railroads! 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir.  By  turning  to  the  first  page  of  the 
index  you  will  note  that  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  Sys- 
tem was  selected  because  it  came  first  in  the  alphabet,  and  then 
it  was  a  large  system,  and  had  not  been  selected  in  some  of  the 
other  tables.  You  will  find  that  is  subdivided  into  Eastern 
Lines;  Western  Lines;  Coast  Lines;  Grand  Canyon  Railway; 
Santa  Fe,  Prescott  &  Phoenix  Railway;  Gulf,  Colorado  &  Santa 
Fe  Railway;  Gulf  &:  Interstate  Railway,  and  Texas  &  Gulf 
Railway. 


(UO 

That  i.s  tlie  Santa  Fe  System;  and  tlie  reaisuii  tliey  are  listed 
liere  in  that  manner  is  because  that  is  tlie  way  they  are  listed 
in  the  rejiorts  of  the  railroad  Forms  1(3,  17  and  18. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Showing  the  different  divisions  and  different 
seniority  districts? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes.     'J'hat  is  one  railroad. 

The  next  railroad  selected  was  the  Chica.uo,  Milwaukee  & 
St.  Paul  System,  that  bein«i:  subdivided  into  Eastern  Lines; 
Puget  Sound  Lines;  Bellin,i»:ham  &  Xorthern  Railway,  and 
Tacoma  Eastern  Railroad. 

Now,  that  Avas  not  an  arbitrary  arrangement.  That  was 
just  as  they  appeared  on  the  reports  of  the  railroad. 

The  next  railroad  was  the  Great  Northern  Railway,  which 
has  no  subdivision. 

The  next  was  the  Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  lV:  Sault  Ste.  Marie 
Railwav,  without  subdivisions. 

Then  comes  the  Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas  Railway  System, 
subdivided  into  Missouri,  Kansas  k  Texas  Railway;  Beaumont 
&  Great  Northern  Railway;  Texas  Central  Railroad;  and  Wich- 
ita Falls  &  Northwestern  Railway. 

Then,  the  next  and  last  system  selected  was  the  Missouri 
Pacific  Railway  System,  made  up  of  the  Missouri  Pacific  Rail- 
way and  the  St.  Louis,  Iron  Mountain  &  Southern  Railway. 

Now,  in  the  selection  of  those  roads  I  tried  to  select  roads 
typical  of  the  different  sections  of  the  country,  with  probably 
the  exception  of  the  Great  Northern,  and  the  reason  I  included 
the  Great  Northern  was  to  show  how  greatly  the  fluctuations  in 
traffic  affected  engineers  and  firemen,  and  then,  another  road 
that  was  selected  for  a  specific  purpose  was  the  Missouri,  Kansas 
&  Texas,  which  showed  that,  for  some  reason,  there  had  been 
but  very  few  men  employed;  and,  if  you  will  turn  to  the  Missouri, 
Kansas  &  Texas,  you  will  notice  there  is  a  very  slight  fluctuation 
as  reflected  in  this  report.  Therefore,  taking  the  Missouri,  Kan- 
sas &  Texas  as  one  of  the  roads  that  shows  the  least  fluctuations, 
and  the  Great  Northern  as  the  one  that  shows  the  greatest,  the 
others  would  probably  fall  between;  but,  I  think  the  roads 
selected  are  typical  of  the  entire  territory. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Was  your  reason  for  not  including  all  roads 
in   this  tabulation,   the  voluminous  nature   of  the  matter — it 


641 

would  have  made  more  than  llic  tweutv-one  volumes,  wouldn't 
it? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  didn't  care  so  much  about  the  size  of  tlie 
book,  but  it  made  so  much  work  for  us  to  do  that  we  could  not 
do  it,  we  didn't  have  time  to  do  it,  and  it  would  have  been  too 
expensive  to  do  it. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  said  these  lii^iires,  where  they  appear  in 
the  adjoining  columns  under  the  earnings  of  the  engineers,  for 
the  different  months,  promoted  engineers, — 

Mr.  Carter:     Table  9? 

Mr.  Phillips :  Table  9,  on  page  38,  that  where  amounts  are 
shown  that  would  indicate  months  in  which  the  engineers  worked 
as  engineers. 

Mr.  Carter  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  where  a  blank  appears,  that  would  indi- 
cate— and  I  think  in  parentheses  it  is  stated  from  place  to  place, 
that  there  was  no  service  for  those  months — take  page  46  for 
example. 

Mr.  Carter :  There  are  tw^o  blanks  there  on  page  38.  For 
instance,  on  the  Southern  Kansas  division,  the  Middle  division 
and  the  Oklahoma  division  of  the  Eastern  Lines  of  the  Santa  Fe, 
there  were  no  firemen  promoted  at  all  during  the  period  since 
January  1,  1912 ;  while,  taking  the  last  line  on  that  page,  on  the 
Arkansas  River  Division,  you  will  notice  that  Thomas  E.  Stan- 
ley's name  appears,  but  no  amount  is  shown  as  earned  for  any  of 
the  four  months  here  reported.  I  only  show  four  months  out  of 
the  twenty-six.  It  so  happens  that  he  did  not  earn  anything  in 
those  four  months. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Presumably  Stanley  was  promoted  subse- 
quent to  (January  1, 1912,  but  did  not  work  at  any  time  in  1913. 

Mr.  Carter :     Not  during  those  four  months. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  you  use  these  four  months  all  the  way 
through? 

Mr.  Carter :  All  the  way  through  I  have  taken  these  four 
months,  to  show  the  effect  of  the  fluctuation  in  business  during 
a  one  year  period  or  a  thirteen  months  period,  on  the  earnings 
of  the  man. 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  page  46,  I  just  picked  out  one  there  that 
seemed  striking,  it  seemed  indicative  of  the  variations,  J.  C. 
Dudley,  in  the  month  of  February,  1913,  earned  $17.70. 


642 

Mr.  Carter :     $17.70  in  February,  1913  / 
Mr.  Phillips:     And,  iu  June  $26  and  some  cents,  and  in 
October  $81  and  some  cents,  and  nothing  in  February,  1914. 
Mr.  Carter :     That  shows — 
Mr.  Phillips  :     That  is  on  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul 

Kail  way. 

Mr.  Carter:  You  will  notice  that  he  earned  as  high  as 
$81.49  in  October,  which  is  a  great  deal  more  than  he  earned  in 
the  other  three  months  combined. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  turn  to  page  71,  please.  I  believe,  Mr. 
Carter,  you  ex])lained  these  blank  lines  under  the  Atchison, 
Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  Railway  System,  shown  on  Tal)le  10,  monthly 
earnings  of  Locomotive  Engineers,  hired.  Would  we  under- 
stand from  that  no  engineers  were  hired  at  all  on  any  of  those 
divisions  since  January  1,  1912  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     On  that  page — 

Mr.  Phillips:     Page  71. 

Mr.  Carter:  On  page  71,  Chicago  terminals,  Illinois  Di- 
vision, Missouri  Division,  Eastern  Division,  Southern  Kansas 
Division,  Middle  Division  and  Oklahoma  Division,  no  engineers 
were  hired  since  January  1,  1912. 

Mr.  Phillips:  On  the  adjoining  table.  Western  Lines,  C.  A. 
Winberg,  there  appears  all  the  way  across  the  page  a  leader 
line  and  no  earnings  shown.  Would  that  indicate  that.  Winberg 
had  been  hired  subsequent  to  January  1,  1912,  but  did  not  work 
in  1913  during  these  particular  months! 

Mr.  Carter :  That  is  the  intention.  Now^,  without  referring 
to  the  original  reports,  I  cannot  tell  what  months  he  did  work 
in,  but  by  referring  to  the  original  forms  17  and  turning  to  that 
division  and  that  railroad,  you  would  find  just  what  months 
he  did  work  during  this  twenty-six  months'  period. 

Mr.  Shea:  This  only  goes  to  show  that  he  did  not  work 
these  months? 

Mr.  Carter :  All  this  indicates  that,  during  the  four  months 
selected,  to  show  the  fluctuations  in  earnings,  this  man  did  not 
earn  anything,  although  he  appeared  on  the  railroads'  report. 
Now,  I  have  not  included  them  here  for  any  purpose  except  I 
wanted  to  include  all  the  men  reported  on  that  division.  It 
might  be  that  Winberg  was  dismissed,  I  don't  know. 


643 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  tuniing  to  page  86,  Table  11,  this  con- 
tinues through,  I  think,  a  large  number  of  pages. 

Mr.  Carter:  Table  11  extends  from  page  86  to  page  243, 
making  up  158  pages,  reporting  the  names  of  the  firemen  who 
were  hired  on  these  railroads  in  this  twenty-six  months '  period. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Are  these  the  same  roads  for  which  the  engi- 
neers, promoted  and  hired,  are  shown? 

Mr.  Carter :  Same  roads  and  same  divisions  except  this  is 
taken  from  the  railroads'  form  No.  18. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  is  the  sample  form  shown  in  the  front 
of  the  book? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  the  same  information  as  shown  for 
hired  engineers  would  be  shown  here  for  hired  firemen! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  wish  you  would  turn  back  to  page  15  again 
for  a  moment.  Perhaps  we  can  save  some  time  here,  if  you 
will  describe  it  very  clearly.  You  have,  under  the  head  of 
tabular  statements,  presented  in  this  statement  a  description  of 
the  tables  Avhich  I  have  just  briefly  referred  to.  Will  you  please 
describe  the  tables  and  bring  out  what  is  shoAvn  therein,  in  a 
general  way  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  "Table  I  shows  the  number  of  Engineers 
(promoted).  Engineers  (hired),  and  Firemen  (hired),  who  per- 
formed service  during  the  months  of  February,  June  or  October, 
1913,  or  in  February,  1914,  as  shown  in  tables  III,  IV  and  V, 
grouped  as  to  monthly  average  earnings. 

"Table  II  presents  the  same  information  in  slightly  dif- 
ferent form," 

This  statement  is  made  here  that  "of  4,098  Promoted  Jjn- 
gineers,  2,249,  or  54.88  per  cent  have  earned  for  the  montJis 
worked,  an  average  of  less  than  $80.00  pc^v  month.  Only  1,068, 
or  26.06  per  cent  have  earned  more  than  an  aN'erage  of  $100  per 
month  for  the  months  worked. 

"Of  1,296  Hired  Engineers,  518,  or  ;]9.97  per  cent,  have 
earned  for  the  months  worked  an  average  of  less  tlian  $90.00 
per  month.  Only  619,  or  47.74  per  cent,  have  earned  more  than 
an  average  of  $100  per  month  for  the  months  worked. 

"Of  23,919  Firemen,  10,786,  or  45.09  per  cent,  have  earned 
for  the  months  worked  an  average  of  less  than  $50.00  per  month. 


644 

Only  2,423,  or  10.13  i)er  cent,  have  earned  more  than  an  average 
of  $S0.00  i)er  month  for  the  montlis  worked. 

•'In  eomputina:  tlie  earnings  of  Engineers  and  Firemen  in 
Tables  I  and  II  (and  in  all  other  tal)les  herewith  presented), 
the  months  in  which  no  service  was  performed  are  not  consid- 
ered, for  it  has  been  understood  that  dnrinc:  such  months  En- 
gineers and  Firemen  have  been  'laid  off'  on  account  of  decrease 
in  business.  Had  all  months  been  considered,  the  earnings 
shown  herein  would  have  been  a  great  deal  less.  A  glance  at 
Tables  IX,  X  and  XI  will  demonstrate  this  fact." 

Xow,  here  is  a  description  of  Tables  3,  4  and  5,  which  shows 
much  that  I  have  already  stated,  and  there  are  some  subsidiary 
tai)les  there  on  pages  16  and  17  that  bring  out  the  details  and 
what  is  meant  by  other  tables. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Taking  this  small  table  on  page  16,  Mr.  Car- 
ter, the  first  one  there,  that  shows  first  the  number  of  engineers 
promoted  in  February,  1913.  Do  you  mean  by  that  the  number 
of  promoted  engineers  who  worked  in  that  month? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  means  the  number  of  engineers  who 
were  promoted  since  January  1,  1912,  and  whose  earnings  ap- 
pear on  the  forms  su]iplied  by  the  railroads. 

Mr.  Philli])s :  Tlien  the  same  would  be  true  of  June,  would 
it? 

Mr.  Carter:     June  and  October. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:     And  February,  1914? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

^Ir.  Phillijjs :  And  you  next  give  their  total  earnings,  of 
the  promoted  engineers  in  the  months  named  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Total  earnings  and  average  earnings.  The 
purpose  of  these  three  tables  is  to  compare  the  numl)er  of  men, 
their  total  earnings,  their  average  earnings,  as  affected  by  the 
fluctuations  in  business.  Now,  vou  will  note  the  second  table 
on  jiage  16,  is  a  com])arison  between  February,  1914,  and  Feb- 
ruary, 1913,  showing  how  the  business  varies,  while  the  table  at 
the  head  of  ]iage  17  is  a  comparison  between  October,  1913,  and 
June,  1913,  and  shows  how  it  will  vary  between  what  is  gen- 
erally the  best  month  and  what  is  generally  the  ]ioorest  month 
of  the  railroad's  l)usiness  for  the  year. 

Mr.  Phillij^s:  Do  these  tables  show  that  February,  1914, 
was  less  busv  than  February,  1913? 


645 

Mr.  Carter:  For  every  item  except  the  miinber  of  pro- 
moted engineers  in  service  as  engineers,  there  is  a  minus  sign 
there,  which  sliows  a  decrease.  The  first  column  shows  the 
amount  of  decrease ;  the  last  column  shows  the  percentage.  You 
will  notice  there  is  a  ])lus  sign  opposite  the  first  number  in  that 
column,  which  indicates  that  is  an  increase. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  That  is,  the  number  of  promoted  men  in 
1913,  Fel)ruary,  was  greater  or,  rather,  the  number  of  promoted 
men  in  February,  1914,  was  greater  than  in  February,  1913? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  number  of  ])romoted  men  serving  as  en- 
gineers. 

Mr.  Pliilli])s:  How  does  October  compare  with  June,  or 
witli  tlie  other  months? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  number  of  engineers  employed  in  Oc- 
tober, 1913,  over  June,  1913,  was  955.  Just  eliminating  the  num- 
bers and  taking  u])  the  percentages,  the  number  of  engineers 
increased  from  June  to  October,  including  only  the  men  cov- 
ered in  the  reports  of  the  railroads,  52  per  cent.  The  total  earn- 
ings of  these  engineers  increased  84  per  cent,  and  the  average 
earnings  increased  20  per  cent.  Now,  for  hired  engineers,  the 
number  increased  30  per  cent;  total  earnings  of  hired  engineers 
increased  56  ]wy  cent,  and  average  earnings  per  month  of  the 
hired  engineers  increased  19  per  cent. 

The  number  of  firemen,  October,  1913,  over  June,  1913,  only 
considering  the  men  found  on  these  forms  supplied  by  the  rail- 
roads, increased  48  per  cent.  The  total  earnings  of  these  firemen 
increased  68  per  cent,  and  the  average  earnings  per  month  in- 
creased 13  per  cent,  which  shows  even  within  a  five  months 
period  how  the  earnings  of  the  men  are  affected  by  fluctuations 
in  traffic. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Does  this  also  show  that  October,  1913,  was  a 
very  busy  month,  in  tliat  year? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  busiest  month  of  the  year  I  am  quite 
sure.    At  least  it  would  be  indicated  by  the  railroads'  forms. 

Mr.  Phillips  :  Now,  the  total  number  of  employes,  Mr.  Car- 
ter, as  shown  on  page  17;  the  number  on  the  engineers'  list 
February  1,  1913,  does  that  mean  the  total  number  of  men  on 
the  engineers'  senioritv  list! 

Mr.  Carter:  This  table  here  includes  all  the  men  in  the 
service,  not  the  men  who  have  been  liii-ed  sinco  Jnuuai-y  1,  1912. 


G4(i 

This  is  from  form  15.  You  will  understand  that  form  15  covers 
all  tlio  mon  in  service,  while  forms  1(),  17  and  18  only  affect  men 
employed  or  i)romoted  since  January  1,  ]912.  Now  then,  these  re- 
ports show  that  on  all  the  railroads  reporting  the  numl)er  of 
engineers  on  the  engineers'  list,  February  1,  191.'),  were  31,915. 
The  numbci-  of  engineers  on  the  Engineers'  List  February  1, 
1914,  one  year  later,  was  32,038.  The  number  of  engineers  on  the 
Engineers'  Extra  List,  February  1,  1914,  was  5,229.  The  num- 
ber of  engineers  set  back  firing,  Fe])ruary  1, 1914,  was  5,451,  and 
so  on. 

Now,  the  Firemen's  List,  showing  the  same  information, 
shows  that  the  numl)er  of  firemen  on  the  Firemen's  List,  Febru- 
ary 1, 1913,  was  30,937.  The  number  of  firemen  on  the  Firemen's 
List  on  February  1,  1914,  was  29,645.  The  nmnber  of  firemen  on 
the  Firemen's  Extra  List  on  February  1, 1914,  was  7,197.  And,  I 
want  to  say  here  that  I  understand  that  those  given  on  the  extra 
list  are  also  included  in  the  larger  number  for  the  Engineers' 
List.  I  mean  to  say  this,  that  a  man  would  be  on  the  Engineers ' 
List  and  at  the  same  time  he  may  be  on  the  extra  list.  The  num- 
ber of  firemen  laid  off  since  the  youngest  fireman  retained  in 
the  service  February  1,  1914,  was  en)i)loyed,  was  6,086.  That 
would  indicate  that  on  February  1st,  on  account  of  the  depres- 
sion in  business,  of  these  30,937  firemen,  6,086  had  no  employ- 
ment at  all.  The  numl)er  of  firemen  hired  since  January  1, 1912, 
two  years  and  one  month,  were  23,919. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  apparently  the  force  is  practically 
renewed  within  two  years,  is  it  not! 

Mr.  Carter:  Oli,  1  think  you  will  find  that  is  the  usual  case. 
1  think  if  you  take  all  the  men  who  enter  the  railroad  service  as 
firemen  and  then  find  how  many  stay  long  enough  to  learn  to 
run  an  engine,  you  will  find  it  is  exceedingly  small.  Of  all  the 
men  who  get  to  run  an  engine  one  trip — well  so  many  of  them 
fall  l)y  the  wayside  before  they  get  these  high  priced  runs  T  was 
talking  about  this  morning — 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  the  23,919  men  would  not  indicate  that 
that  many  had  been  added  to  the  list,  but  that  it  had  been  neces- 
sary to  hire  that  many  in  order  to  keep  the  number  up  to  the 
requisite  })oint '? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  would  say  that  that  number  of  men  entered 
the  service  and  most  of  them  found  out  that  thev  dichi't  like  it; 


'647 

that  tlioh'  earnings  Avere  not  high  enough  or  that  the  work  was 
too  hard. 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  the  next  pages,  Mr.  Carter,  18  and  19,  are 
two  tables.  Tables  1  and  2.  Will  you  briefly  explain  those  tables, 
please  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  in  order  to  show  the  earnings  of  the 
men  as  reported  on  forms  10,  17  and  18,  as  furnished  by  the 
railroads,  these  two  tables  were  prepared  and  they  are  identical, 
except  in  the  arrangement.  Table  1  is  arranged  in  progressive 
groups,  according  to  earnings,  while  table  2  is  arranged  to  sliow 
the  nmnber  earning  less  than  stated  amounts.  For  instance, 
if  you  will  take  for  the  promoted  engineers,  in  table  1,  you  \vill 
see  the  number  and  the  percentage  that  earned  between  certain 
amounts.  In  table  2  yon  will  find  those  that  earned  less  than 
ceftain  amounts.     This  includes  only  23,919  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Would  you  understand  from  that,  ]\lr.  Car- 
ter, that  526  engineers,  or  twelve  and  a  fraction  per  cent,  earned 
less  than  twenty  dollars  per  month? 

Mr.  Carter:  12  per  cent  or  rather  12.84  per  cent  of  all 
the  engineers  promoted — this  shows  that  they  earned  less  than 
$20  per  month. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  2,989  firemen  or  a  little  over  12  per 
cent,  earned  less  than  $20  per  month? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir,  al)out  the  same  percentage. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  this  figured  for  the  whole  twenty-six 
months,  or  for  the  four  months  shown  in  some  of  the  other 
tables! 

Mr.  Carter :     This  is  for  the  whole  period. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Not  counting  the  month  unless  he  worked 
part  of  the  month. 

Mr.  Carter:  It  only  counts  the  months  that  they  worked. 
If  a  man  worked  every  other  month  during  the  year  his  total 
earnings  were  divided  by  six  instead  of  twelve,  which,  of  course, 
was  not  an  exaggeration  of  low  earnings. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  The  total  number  hired  and  ]nomoted  and 
so  forth,  would  be  the  same  as  the  totals  in  the  other  tables? 

Mr.  Carter :     1  think  so. 

Mr.  Phillijis :  Sim]:>ly  segregating  them  in  another  way  for 
the  sake  of  making  another  comparison? 


648 

Mr.  Carter:  It  is  a  different  presentation  of  th.e  matter 
found  in  the  railroads'  reports. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Only  fourteen  of  the  engineers  promoted  or 
.34  per  cent — that  would  be  thirty-four  one-hundredths  of  one 
per  cent — earned  more  than  $170  per  month — upwards  of  $170 
per  month. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  and  about  the  same  number,  fourteen, 
and  the  same  percentage,  earned  between  $160  and  $169.99 — 
only  thirty-four  one-hundredths  of  one  per  cent.  This  other 
table  over  here  is  more  communicative,  I  might  say,  because 
3'ou  get  more  information  with  less  effort. 

Mr.  Phillips :  All  right,  then,  turn  to  the  next  table.  The 
question  I  Avas  about  to  ask  you  is  this,  Mr,  Carter :  You  show 
526  promoted  engineers  earning  less  than  $20  j^er  month.  You 
next  show  768  engineers  earning  less  than  $30  per  month. 
Would  these  include  the  526  first  quoted. 

Mr.  Carter :  Each  succeeding  number  includes  all  above  it. 
For  instance,  it  is  shown  here  that  for  engineers  promoted,  82 
per  cent  earned  less  than  $110  per  month.  Now,  that  includes 
all  of  those  above  in  that  same  column. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  hired  engineers,  65  per  cent  earned  less 
than  $110  per  month? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And,  for  hired  firemen,  99  and  a  fraction 
per  cent  earned  less  than  $110  per  month? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Turn  now  to  the  next  table,  Mr.  Carter,  on 
page  20,  table  3.  This  appears  to  be  an  entirely  different  table. 
Will  you  explain  this  for  us,  please? 

Mr.  Carter :  This  is  a  table  of  totals  taken  from  these  five 
volumes. 

The  Chairman:     What  page  is  that? 

Mr.  Carter:  Pages  20  and  21.  I  want  to  call  your  atten- 
tion to  the  peculiarity  of  that  table.  In  order  to  get  all  of  those 
columns  in,  you  will  note  the  table  extends  over  across  both 
pages,  and  the  table  reads  across  both  pages.  In  order  to 
be  able  to  trace  the  lines  in  each  column,  I  repeated  the  name  of 
the  railroad  on  the  right  as  well  as  on  the  left,  so  if  you  are 
looking  at  the  right  side  of  the  page  you  can  glance  at  the  road 
there  to  see  what  the  railroad  is,  and  with  the  left  the  same 


H9 

way ;  but  it  is  all  one  table  extending  across  the  two  pages,  and 
you  will  note  it  is  continued  over  and  really  makes  four  pages  of 
tables  for  that  form,  pages  20,  21,  22  and  23. 

Mr.. Phillips:     You  have  included  all  of  the  railroads  here? 

Mr.  Carter :  All  of  the  railroads  reporting  on  these  forms, 
but  only  for  the  months  of  February,  1913,  June,  1913,  Octo- 
ber, 1913,  and  February,  1914.  It  would  be  impossible  to  have 
reproduced  these  for  all  the  months.  It  would  have  been  too 
great,  an  effort.  This  is  a  bigger  job  than  I  thought  it  was 
when  I  -started  it. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  these  tables  also  show  the  variations  in 
the  month? 

Mr.  Carter:     On  each  railroad. 

Mr.  Phillips:     As  to  the  average  earnings? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir,  on  each  railroad. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  show  the  number  of  engineers  pro- 
moted, the  number  of  engineers  hired  and  the  number  of  fire- 
men hired  on  the  different  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  exactly  that  way.  It  shows  the  number 
of  promoted  engineers  who  were  promoted  since  January  1st, 
1912,  who  worked  during  these  months.  You  will  understand 
that  Forms  15,  16,  17  and  18  have  nothing  to  do  with  men  who 
were  in  the  service  previous  to  January  1st,  1912. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  so  understood,  b}^  your  first  explanation. 
Then  for  the  purpose  of  further  comparison  you  have  selected 
these  four  months,  four  typical  months  you  take  them  to  be, 
and  compiled  the  figures  from  which  these  conclusions  are 
dra^ni  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  it  shows  the  average  earnings  for  the 
men  working  in  these  months,  the  men  hired  or  promoted  since 
January  1st,  1912? 

Mr.  Carter:       Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Now,  on  page  24  begin  table  4. 

Mr.  Carter:  That  is  the  same  thing,  except  it  is  for  hired 
engineers.    Table  3  was  for  promoted  engineers. 

Mr.  Philli])s:  You  show  for  the  same  raihoads  and  for  the 
same  months'? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  and  if  you  will  look  at  the  bottom  of  the 


\mgo  for  eat* li  tal)lt',  or  i]w  second  pai»:o,  yon  will  find  the  sfeneral 
conclusions  rcaclu'd  hy  r<'adinii  tlic  tal)l('. 

j\lr.  l*liillii)s:  'I'hc  t'oolin.ns  in  each  instance  are  given  on 
the  second  ])a^e  t'ol lowing-,  tliat  is,  at  the  end  of  tlie  next  two 
pages,  are  they  not? 

M)-.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliillii)s:  And,  is  tahie  nnniber  5  tlie  same  information 
for  firemen? 

Mr.  (.'arter:  'I'ahle  5  is  tlie  same  information,  hut  it  covers 
firemen.  You  will  notice  the  page  includes  a  great  many  more 
figures. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Now,  turn  to  page  IVI,  Mr.  Carter. 

Mr.  Carter:     Page  32? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes,  table  6. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  "Engineers  longest  in  service  (as  such)  fir- 
ing locomotives  on  February  1st,  1914."  What  is  the  purpose 
of  this  table? 

Mr.  Carter:  This  table  is  taken  from  Form  15,  and  it  shows 
the  average  age  of  all  the  firemen  on  all  the  seniorit>'  districts 
who  were  oldest  in  service  as  engineers.  That  is  their  average 
age  as  engineers. 

We  will  take  the  Atchison,  Topeka  t^"  Santa  Fe  Railway, 
Eastern  Lines.  There  Avere  six  seniority  districts  rei>orted. 
Those  six  oldest  firemen  had  an  average  age  of  3.83  of  seniority 
as  engineers,  not  as  firemen,  but  as  engineers.  And,  if  you  will 
go  right  down  that  list  j^ou  will  find  for  each  railroad,  and  each 
subdivision  of  railroad,  the  ninnber  of  seniority  districts  re- 
ported, that  is,  the  numbei-  of  oldest  firemen  re))orted;  and  the 
last  column  shows  the  average  length  of  seniority  as  an  engineer 
on  February  1st,  P)14.  You  will  find  that  on  practically  all  of 
the  roads,  engineers  Avere  firing  the  engines. 

Where  the  circle  figure  1  ai^pears  the  reference  nott^  shows 
that  no  i-epoi-t  was  made  by  this  railroad,  that  is,  for  this  infor- 
mation. This  lailroad  may  have  reported  all  of  the  information 
except  this,  but  foi-  this  special  matter  there  was  no  report  by  it. 

Y'^ou  will  find  ordinarily  the  subsidiary  lines.  For  instance, 
the  first  one  shown  is  the  Oulf  and  Interstate  Railway,  and  the 
second  one  is  the  Duluth,  Winnijieg  and  Pacilic  Railway.  The 
Duluth,  Winnii>eg  and  Pacific  Railway  is  a  ])art  of  the  Canadian 


651 

Northern  Railroad,  1  understand,  hut  tlioy  did  not  t'lirnisli  Form 
15  altlioiigh  they  did  furnisli  Forms  16, 17  and  18  for  the  Duliitli, 
AVinnipeii:    and  Pacific  Railway. 

Footnote  2  shows  ''All  promoted  engineers  were  running 
on  February  1,  1914,"  and  you  mil  see  how  few  of  all  these  roads 
there  are  where  there  was  not  an  engineer  firing  an  engine. 

Anfl.  understand  another  thing,  tliis  only  shows  one  en- 
gineer. 1  think  that  is  a  point  that  ought  to  be  brought  out.  If 
you  will  turn  back  to  page  4,  3  (a),  the  question  is:  "How  many 
years  of  seniority  as  an  engineer  has  the  oldest  fireman,  firing 
on  February  1st,  1914,  on  each  seniority  district!" 

We  will  take  the  first  district,  which  is  the  Wyoming  seni- 
ority district.  We  see  that  that  man,  T.  J.  Krafezik,  was  the  old- 
est man  firing.  That  is,  he  had  three  years  seniority  as  an  en- 
gineer: Imt,  I  take  it  that  that  also  means  that  ever\'  other  en- 
gineer that  had  been  promoted  during  those  years  was  also  back, 
firing,  because  under  the  rules  the  promotion  takes  place  in  the 
reverse  order  of  their  seniority,  and  in  order  to  reduce  Krafezik, 
who  had  three  years  seniority,  you  would  have  to  set  back  all  of 
the  engineers  who  had  been  promoted  since  that  time.  If  it  was 
six  years,  it  would  include  all  the  engineers  that  had  been  pro- 
moted for  six  years;  so  while  I  only  show  one  name  here,  the 
length  of  time  he  has  seniority  as  an  engineer  would  indicate 
that  there  must  have  also  been  many  other  engineers  set  back. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  that  might  indicate,  Mr.  Carter,  in  this 
case,  that  numerous  engineers  having  three  years  seniority,  or 
less,  were  firing  the  engines  on  that  division  of  that  railroad? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Would  you  use  that  in  support  of  your 
former  statement  that,  in  some  instances,  all  engineers  were 
found  firing  the  engines? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  think  it  is  an  unusual  experience,  in 
times  of  great  depression  in  railway  traffic,  to  find  all  of  the 
passenger  engines  and  most  of  the  regular  freight  engines,  fired 
by  men  who  have  been  promoted. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Is  it  your  purpose  in  bringing  this  out,  Mr. 
Oarter,  to  show  the  unusual  time  usually  occupied  by  a  fireman 
before  he  reaches  that  position  that  has  been  referred  to  here, 
I  think,  as  a;  delusion,  once  or  twice? 

Mr.  Carter:    I  didn't  say  that. 


652 

Mr.  Pl)illi])s:  Didn't  somebody  say  that  he  looked  forward 
with  great  liope  to  the  time  when  he  would  be  a  passenger  en- 
gineer on  one  of  these  high  paid  jobs? 

Mr.  Carter:     That  is  mostly  a  delusion. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  I  hoard  it  so  referred  to.  But,  your 
reason  in  bringini»-  this  out  here  is  to  show  the  great  length  of 
time  that  may  be  oecu]iiod  by  a  fireman  in  the  service  of  a 
railroad  company,  ])assing  through  the  periods  of  examination 
and  ))romotion,  and  running  an  engine  extra  and  going  back  to 
firing,  lunning  back  and  forth,  running  at  times  and  fii'ing  at 
times  until  he  finally  has  reached  a  ])oint  where  his  seniority 
wouM  <'ntitl<'  him  to  earn  fair  and  regular  wages? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Philliiis:  Have  you  shown  here  by  any  figures  the 
average  length  of  time  these  firemen  are  worked  on  these  differ- 
ent roads? 

Mr.  Carter:  Xo,  sir,  I  never  made  that  investigation.  In 
asking  the  question  we  really  thought  that  that  was  asking 
too  much. 

Mr.  Phillips:  ]\Ir.  Carter,  I  read  on  one  of  the  previous 
pages  here,  I  don't  know  that  I  can  turn  to  it  right  now — yes, 
page  17 — 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  first  paragraph  following  the  tabular 
matter  at  the  to])  of  the  page,  and  the  last  sentence  of  the  para- 
graph, "It  appears,  from  this  Table," — referring  to  Table  6 — 
"that  the  average  'age'  as  Engineer  of  each  of  these  Firemen 
was  3.44  years." 

Mr.  Carter :  Of  all  the  reports  for  all  the  railroads  and  all 
the  seniority  districts,  the  average  age  as  an  engineer  of  the 
oldest  fireman  was  3.44  vears,  nearlv  three  and  a  half  vears,  the 
average  throughout  on  February  1,  1914. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Previous  to  that,  each  one  of  these  engineers 
])romoted  had  gone  through  the  experience  of  a  fireman,  begin- 
ning as  a  fireman  and  going  through  the  extra  list  viscissitudes 
until  he  finally  got  a  regiilar  job  as  a  fireman  and  then  he  found 
liimself  as  an  extra  engineer? 

Mr.  Carter:  They  thought  they  were  engineers  t-hree  and 
a  half  years  before  that.  They  discovered  three  and  a  half  years 
later  thev  were  firemen. 


653 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  believe  you  said  that,  for  hired  engineers, 
the  conditions  were  even  worse,  because  they  had  no  job  to  I'alJ 
back  on  when  they  were  cut  off  the  engineers'  list? 

Mr.  Carter:  Infinitely  worse.  They  are  like  the  firemen. 
When  the  fireman  is  cut  oft"  he  generally  limits  another  job, 
and  never  comes  back.  He  has  got  enough  of  it.  One  experi- 
ence is  enough. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Is  it  probable,  when  they  cut  a  man  off 
one  road,  that  jobs  will  be  plentiful  on  another  road? 

Mr.  Carter:  Ordinarily,  unless  it  is  some  local  condition, 
when  men  are  furloughed  or  taken  off  because  of  depression  in 
business,  the  same  depression  has  caused  the  same  result  on 
other  railroads.  Therefore,  when  men  are  out  of  emplo^Tiient 
on  one  road,  it  is  useless  for  them  to  look  for  employment  on 
another  road.  On  the  other  hand,  when  business  is  so  good 
on  one  road  that  they  need  engineers,  the  chances  are  that  there 
are  no  engineers  to  hire,  because  they  are  all  working  at  the 
jobs  they  formerly  worked  at. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Now,  turn  to  pages  34  and  35,  table  7. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Fluctuations  in  employment  of  engineers. 
What  is  showTi  by  this  table! 

Mr.  Carter :  This  shows  what  Form  15  shows,  as  indicated 
on  pages  6  and  7.  It  is  a  compilation  of  one  table  from  all  the 
railroads.  It  shows  the  total  number  of  engineers  on  the  Engi- 
neers'  List  by  railroads,  and  so  forth,  all  the  way  across.  By 
the  way,  this  table  does  not  run  across.  It  is  a  continued  table 
from  the  bottom  of  page  34  to  the  top  of  page  35.  The  footings, 
however,  are  on  page  35. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  turn  to  page  36,  Table  8.  Does  this 
give  the  same  information  for  hired  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  Table  7  gives  the  information  for  engineers, 
and  Table  8  gives  the  same  information  for  firemen,  and  has  the 
like  footings. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Now,  for  firemen,  taking  the  Atchison,  To- 
peka  &  Santa  Fe  again,  being  first  out,  for  the  purpose  of 
exemplification  it  shows — 

Mr.  Carter:  It  shows  613  firemen  on  the  firemen's  list. 
242  of  them  were  on  the  extra  list. 

Mr.  Phillips :     That  was  the  point  I  was  about  to  bring  out. 


The  tolals  shown  are  for  both  eiiiiineers  and  firemen? 

Mx.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  I  understood  you  to  say  a  moment  ago 
that  in  times  of  business  depression  a  great  m^uy  of  the  men 
firing  were  engineers. 

Mr.  Carter:     Always. 

^fr.  Phillips:  Then,  are  w<'  to  understand  they  are  still 
carried  on  the  engineers'  list? 

Mr.  Carter:     And  the  firemen's  list,  l)oth. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Can-ied  on  both  lists? 

Mr.  C'arter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  we  to  understand,  then,  that  the  number 
of  firemen  included  on  the  firemen's  list  February  1,  1914,  given 
as  totaling  29,645,  included  any  of  those  engineers,  or  did  they 
appear  in  the  engineers'  list? 

Mr.  Carter:  Of  the  29,645  firemen  reported  in  service 
February  1,  1914,  5,451  were  demoted  engineers;  and  in  addi- 
tion to  that  7,197  appeared  to  have  been  on  the  extra  list.  That 
would  leave  of  the  total  only  16,997  firemen  holding  jobs  as 
firemen,  who  had  been  firemen,  who  had  never  been  promoted 
to  the  position  of  engineer. 

Mr.  Burgess:     May  I  ask  a  question? 

The  Chairman:     Certainly. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Pardon  me,  will  you  repeat  the  number  of 
demoted  engineers  who  were  back  firing? 

Mr.  Carter:     Demoted! 

Mr.  Burgess:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:    You  Avill  find  that  on  page  35. 

Mr.  Carter:  Page  35,  the  fourth  column,  number  of  engi- 
neers set  back  to  firing  February  1,  1914,  total  5,451. 

Mr.  Burgess:  AVould  that  indicate  that  there  were  5,451 
firemen  doing  nothing  at  all  when  those  engineers  w^ent  back 
to  firing? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  not  only  indicates  that,  but  the  reports 
show  that  there  were  7,197  firemen  doing  nothing  at  all,  men 
who  had  been  firemen  and  ]ierhaps  had  earned  very  high  wages 
some  months;  but  7,197  of  them  were  not  earning  anything  on 
February  1,  1914. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  do  tljese  tables  prove  conclu- 
sively, to  you,  that  your  statement  that  the  earnings  of  engi- 


655 

neer-sand  firemeu  for  the  lii'st  few  years  of  eoiployiijent  wece 
comparatively  low,  is  a  correct  statenxent? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  this  verifies  my  statement. 

Mi-.  Phillips:  Do  you  helieve  that  these  tables,  and  the 
information  contained  in  this  exhibit,  also  verifies  your  state- 
ment that  the  variableness  of  an  engineer's  and  fireman's  work 
at  the  outset  is  very  great? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  I  have  used  the  word  "precarious,"  and 
I  think  that  conveys  a  true  idea.  Their  earnings  and  their 
employment  are  exceedingly  precarious,  dependent  on  some- 
thing over  which  they  have  no  control. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  some  of  the  older  men,  by  reason  of 
their  seniority,  may  have  comparatively  well  paid  jobs,  but  a 
great  many  of  those  men  are  fighting  the  extra  list,  as  it  is  com- 
monly termed  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  and  I  think  I  can  safely  state  that  very, 
very  few  of  the  men  who  enter  the  service  as  firemen  remain 
long  enough  to  have  these  high  paid  jobs  permanently. 

Mr.  Phillips :  It  was  asked  here  today  by  a  member  of  the 
Board,  I  believe,  who  I  am  sure  asked  purely  for  information,  if 
this  was  not  a  condition  that  could  never  be  remedied.  Now,  is 
it  not  a  fact  that  these  variations  will  always  occur,  and  that  if 
we  did  not  have  senioritv  they  might  be  far  more  burdensome  on 
some  men  than  they  are  at  present? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  appears  to  me  that  the  only  effect  of  seni- 
ority is  this,  that  the  burden  falls  on  the  younger  men.  With- 
out seniority  the  same  burden  would  fall  upon  the  same  number 
of  men,  but  the  man  who  had  charge  of  assigning  the  sei*vice 
would  pick  the  men  upon  whom  the  burden  would  fall. 

Mr.  Phillips :  But  the  fluctation  would  not  vary  any  more 
without  seniority? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  the  fluctuation  would  be  there  just 
the  same. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  stated,  and  I  believe  the  title  of  your 
book  wmild  indicate,  that  this  was  all  due  to  fluctuations  in  rail- 
road business.  Now,  are  these  variations  due  entirely  to  fluctu- 
ations in.  railroad  business  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  We  started  out  to  prove  that,  but  in  some  in- 
stances we  proved  something  else.  We  proved  that  on  some 
railroads  it  was  not  fluctuations  in  business,  but    that   it   was 


656 

fluctuations  in  locomotives.  We  found  on  some  railroads  that 
it  was  the  big  engine  that  did  the  work,  not  a  depression  in 
business. 

We  found  on  the  Missouri,  Kansas  &  Texas  Railroad  that 
they  had  not  hired  anybody  during  the  rush  period,  and  they  did 
not  liave  anyl)ody  to  lay  off,  comparatively  speaking,  I  mean. 
I  began  to  want  to  know  why  it  was.  I  have  heard  that  the  M. 
K.  &  T.  Eailroad  is  one  of  the  prosperous  southwestern  rail- 
roads, and  an  investigation  developed  the  fact  that  there  were, 
I  do  not  know  how  many  fewer  engines,  but  the  engines  they  put 
in  service  there  did  the  same  thing  and  had  the  same  effect  that 
the  depression  in  business  had  on  other  roads  so  far  as  the  men 
were  concerned. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  if  a  railroad  introduces  very  much 
modern  power,  and  is  able  to  handle  the  same  tonnage  that  it 
ordinarily  handles,  with  one-half  the  locomotives  formerly  used, 
the  effect  on  engineers  and  firemen  will  be  just  the  same  as  if 
half  the  business  has  fallen  off,  will  it  not  f 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  I  think  you  will  find  that  the  builders  of 
locomotives,  particularly  in  their  advertisements,  which  appear 
to  be  verv  attractive  to  railroad  officials,  because  they  send  them 
out  to  them,  make  as  their  main  claim  that  a  railroad  should  buy 
the  big  locomotives,  because  on  a  certain  railroad  two  of  them 
took  the  place  of  five  others,  or  46  of  them  took  the  place  of  100 
others,  so  that  w^ith  that  many  less  engineers  and  firemen  the 
same  traffic  can  be  handled. 

The  Chairman :  Mr.  Carter,  Mr.  Shea  desires  to  ask  you  a 
question. 

Mr.  Shea:  Mr.  Carter,  for  the  purpose  of  illustration,  sup- 
pose on  a  seniority  district  there  w^ere  fifty  engineers  and  fifty 
firemen  employed  to  handle  the  business  under  normal  condi- 
tions, but  because  of  a  depression  in  business  it  became  necessary 
to  demote  twenty-five  engineers,  what  effect  would  that  have 
upon  the  firemen's  list  as  it  stood  under  normal  conditions? 

Mr.  Carter:  Every  reduction  of  a  day's  work,  or  loss  of 
emplojTuent  by  an  engine  crew,  is  suffered  by  two  men,  an  en- 
gineer and  a  fireman.  Now,  in  the  process  of  demotion,  when 
extended  down  to  the  bottom,  the  men  who  finally  suffer  are  the 
two  youngest  firemen. 

Mr.  Shea:    Then,  according  to  that,  the  entire  fifty  fire- 


657 

men  who  were  firing  under  normal  conditions  would  be  cut  off 
the  firemen's  list,  in  case  they  demoted  twenty-five  engineers f 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  that  is,  if  there  were  fifty  engine  crews 
under  good  first  class  conditions,  and  the  business  of  the  road 
was  depressed  to  one-half  that,  so  that  twenty-five  crews  could 
do  the  work,  why,  twenty-five  of  the  oldest  engineers  would  run 
the  engines  and  twenty-five  of  the  youngest  engineers  would  fire 
the  engines.  And  that  is  what  the  men  want,  understand.  They 
would  prefer  to  take  their  chances  that  way,  than  to  take  them 
the  other  way. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Then  if  twenty-five  big  engines  were  bought, 
that  would  do  the  work  of  those  former  fifty  engines,  would  not 
the  elfect  be  just  the  same,  without  any  depression  in  business? 

Mr.  Carter:  Theoretically,  this  statement  will  bo  made; 
but  on  a  railroad  Avith  a  given  traffic  that  was  handled  Ijy  fifty 
engine  crews,  that  is,  fifty  engineers  and  fifty  firemen,  one  of  the 
locomotive  building  establishments  should  take  in  exchange 
these  fifty  locomotives  and  deliver  twenty-five  of  the  modern 
locomotives,  it  would  mean  that  twenty-five  of  the  oldest  engi- 
neers would  run  the  twenty-five  big  engines,  twent>-five  of  the 
youngest  engineers  would  fire  the  biggest  engines,  and  the  fifty 
firemen  would  be  out  of  a  job. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  effect  w^ould  be  the  same  whether  there 
was  a  fifty  per  cent  depression  in  business  or  the  engines  would 
handle  one  hundred  per  cent  more! 

Mr.  Carter:  After  going  into  this  investigation,  I  am  con- 
vinced that  the  introduction  of  larger  engines  has  exactly  the 
same  effect  upon  the  precariousness  of  employment  and  earn- 
ings of  firemen  as  a  reduction  in  the  traffic.  I  do  not  mean  to 
say  it  has  the  same  effect  on  the  company.    I  mean  on  the  men. 

Mr.  Shea:     What  effect  would  it  have  upon  the  company? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  would  transport  the  same  amount  of  traffic, 
and  presumably  bring  the  same  earnings,  with  slightly  more 
than  half  of  the  expense  for  engineers  and  firemen.  The  engi- 
neers and 'firemen  on  these  big  engines,  you  understand,  will 
draw  a  higher  rate  than  on  the  little  engines,  but  the  number 
would  be  decreased  one-half,  and  they  would  pay  each  man  more 
money. 

Mr.  Burgess:    Mr.  Carter,  that  would  be  permanent,  would 


656 

it  not .'  It  would  not  be  i)i-oi'aii()Us.  It  would  bo  pormanent, 
would  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  Oii,  I  i>uess  you  are  ri^^lit  about  that.  There 
is  this  difYereuce  betwc^en  the  effect  of  the  big  engine  and  the 
effect  of  depreciation  in  business.  The  business  can  pick  up, 
but  the  engines  never  will  uvt  little.  I  am  glad  you  called  my 
attention  to  that. 

Mr.  Phillips:     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman:     The  witness  is  with  you,  Mr.  Sheean. 

CROSS  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  that  assumption  of  the  installation 
of  the  larger  engine  i)roceeds  on  the  theory  that  that  is  going 
on  on  all  branch  lines  in  the  same  way  as  on  main  lines? 

^Ir.  Carter:  Yes.  I  think  you  will  find  that  as  the  evolution 
develops  itself,  the  engine  gets  larger  everywhere.  That  is, 
except  on  the  scrap  heap.    There  is  where  the  little  engines  go. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  the  80,000  pound  engines,  weight  on  driv- 
ers, are  gradually  disappearing? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  gradually  disappearing,  and  it  has  been 
argued  by  the  manufacturers  of  locomotives  that  no  such  en- 
gines should  be  in  use,  that  it  would  be  cheaper  for  the  railroads 
to  junk  them  all  and  buy  big  locomotives. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  reconstruct  their  bridges  so  that  they 
would  carry  heavier  weights  on  branch  lines'? 

^Ir.  Carter:  So  far  as  branch  lines  are  concerned,  that 
might  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Heavier  rails  also  on  the  branch  lines  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     That  might  apply. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  irrespective  of  whether  there  were  just 
the  two  light  coaches  that  you  spoke  of  this  morning,  and  that 
that  was  all  th(»  traffic  they  could  get  on  the  branch  line. 

Mr.  Carter :  1  think  you  will  find  the  traffic  on  these  branch 
lines  develops  as  rapidly  as  do  the  locomotives,  ordinarily,  that 
is,  by  the  development  of  the  country.  For  instance,  when  the 
branch  line  is  first  l)uilt,  there  are  not  many  people  there  ordi- 
narily, ))ut  the  peo])le  begin  to  settle  in  that  country  and  it  de- 
velo])s  its  own  l)usiness. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  just  what  effect  does  this  change 
of  the  extra  list  have  on  your  assigned  service  ? 


659 

Mr.  Garter:  Exi)Iaiii  to  nie  just  exactly  what  you  uii-an 
by  ''assigned  service." 

Mr.  Slieean:  I  mean  the  passenger  runs  that  run  every 
day  at  tlie  same  time,  and  the  same  crews  man  them. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  understand  that  recently  the  Pennsylvania 
Railroad  has  pulled  of^'  nearly  one-third  of  its  i)assenger  trains, 
which  were  assigned  runs  before  they  were  pulled  ot¥. 

Mr.  Slieean:  And,  then,  ujion  those  trains  being  taken  off, 
fhe  men  wlio  had  those  runs  took  the  next  best  paying  runs? 

Mr.  Carter:     They  went  back  into  the  freight  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:  They  did  unless  they  got  something  better 
than  a  freight  run,  to  which  their  seniority  entitled  them? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  then,  outside  of  the  depression  becom- 
ing so  acute  that  they  actually  have  to  abandon  trains,  that  they 
had  before,  the  shutting  oft"  of  the  service  or  the  decrease  in 
service  does  not  affect  the  men  on  assigned  runs,  does  it? 

Mr.  Garter:  Not  the  man  who  is  so  fortunate  as  to  stay, 
but  it  does  affect  the  man  who  has  to  move  his  position. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  do  you  mean  by  the  man  wlio  is  so 
fortunate  as  to  stay! 

Mr.  Garter :  A  man  who  is  old  enough  not  to  be  working 
on  a  run  that  is  abandoned. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Then  on  the  passenger  service,  as  to  the  aban- 
donment of  passenger  trains,  is  it  your  observation  that  the 
passenger  trains  are  getting  less  and  less  in  number? 

Mr.  Garter :  I  understand,  and  I  get  this  information 
largely  from  newspapers,  that  about  a  year  ago  the  Pennsyl- 
vania Railroad,  in  the  Eastern  Rate  Case,  stated  that  they 
would  have  to  abandon  their  passenger  trains,  and  did  abandon 
many  passenger  trains;  and  I  have  ])a]iers,  where  the  ])eo])le 
along  the  road  held  indignation  meetings  l)ecause  there  was  not 
standing  room  in  the  trains  they  left. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Garter,  is  it  your  observation  that 
the  passenger  trains  are  getting  less  in  num])er  in  the  Western 
territory  involved  in  this  arliitration? 

Mr.  Garter :     I  think  they  are  getting  greater  all  the  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Greater  in  numl)er? 

Mr.  Garter:     Yes,  as  the  country  develops. 

Mr.  Sheean :     And  as  thev  get  greater  in  number,  so  tlie 


660 

niiinlu'r  of  men  who  arc  not  snl).ioct  to  this  precarious  liazard 
incroasos  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     T  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  that  ]>art  of  the  service,  with  the 
growth  and  development  of  tlu'  country,  is  getting  more  and 
more  certain .' 

:Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  Imt— 

M  V.  Slieean  :  And,  the  earnings  of  both  the  engineer  and  the 
fireman  ujjon  the  assigned  runs  remain  fixed,  certain  and  reg- 
ular? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     From  day  to  day  and  month  to  month? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  this  precarious  condition  you  speak 
of,  in  the  last  analysis,  runs  down  to  the  class  of  service  that  is 
protected  hy  what  are  known  as  extra  boards'? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  AVhat  other  class  of  service  has  this  pre- 
carious hazard  that  you  s])eak  of? 

Mr.  Carter:  You  find  todav  manv  men  who  are  firing  en- 
gines,  who  had  regular  engines  to  run  before  the  big  engines 
came,  or  before  business  fell  off.  They  were  regularly  assigned 
men. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Can  yon  give  an  instance  of  a  man  holding  an 
assigned  run  who  is  firing  now? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  cannot  now,  ]>ut  I  am  quite  sure  it  could 
be  done. 

Mr.  Sheean:  AVhat  other  class  of  service  than  the  service 
protected  l)y  an  extra  board  suffers  this  danger  of  hazard  or 
precariousness  that  you  speak  of? 

Mr.  Carter:  A  man  mav  be  ten  numbers  above  this  Pjugi- 
neers'  Extra  Board  the  first  of  a  certain  month.  The  first  of 
the  next  month  that  same  man  may  find  himself  on  that  extra 
board.  The  first  of  the  next  month  may  find  him  down  ten 
numbei-s  on  the  firemen's  list.  So  it  is  not  the  class,  but  it  is 
the  individual  that  is  affected. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Can  you  answer  the  (juestion,  what  class  of 
service  other  than  tlie  class  protected  by  an  extra  board  does 
undergo  this  hazard  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  ordinarily  every  one,  except,  as  you 


661 

say,  these  assigned  runs  that  the  oldest  men  can  hold,  every 
man  on  the  road  is  affected. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Mr.  Carter,  in  addition  to  the  assigned  pas- 
senger runs,  way  freights  are  assigned,  are  they  not! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  I  think  so,  on  most  roads. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Branch  line  runs  are  also  usually  assigned? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  they  are  usually  bid  in. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Bid  in  by  the  oldest  men  ? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  practically  all  the  branch  line  service 
is  covered  ? 

Ml".  Carter:  I  will  not  say  bid  in  by  the  oldest  men — by 
somebody. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  the  oldest  man  does  not  want  it,  then  the 
next-  oldest  man,  until  they  find  a  man  who  wants  to  take  it  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  is  purely  a  matter  of  choice  of  the 
men  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  of  that  is  protected  by  assignment,  is  it 
not? 

Mr.  Carter:  Xo,  I  do  not  think  so.  The  job  is  there  but 
the  men  constantl}^  change. 

Mr.  Slieean :  Is  that  changed  by  reason  of  their  exercising 
seniority  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  except  as  I  said,  that  if  ten  men  have  to 
walk  the  plank,  seniority  says  which  ten  men  will  have  to  walk. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  and,  outside  of  the  extra  service,  or  out- 
side of  the  service  that  is  protected  by  an  extra  board,  can  you 
tell  of  an  instance  in  the  assigned  service  where  a  regularly 
assigned  passenger  engineer  has  been  demoted? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  cannot  name  him  here,  but  I  am  quite  sure 
there  are  plenty  of  cases. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  speak  of  demotion,  Mr.  Carter.  In  the 
list  wliich  you  have  furnished  here  have  you  included  all  men 
who  have  (|ualified  as  engineers,  even  though  tliey  never  ran 
as  engineers? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  quite  sure  that  they  are  not  included. 
If  they  ai-o  included,  the  railroad  forms  wei-c  not  i^roiicrly  lillcd 
out. 


662 

Mr.  Slicoan:  A  i>ersoii  taking  his  examination  an^l  pro- 
moted as  an  en^nneer  Ijecomes  <|ualitied  as  an  en<i:ine(M-  upon 
siieli  i^romotion.  (lo<'s  lie  not? 

Mr,  Carter :  He  becomes  (pialilicd,  ))ut,  he  is  not  an  enui- 
neer.  He  does  not  i^oi  a  date  until  he  rnns,  as  a  rnk',  on  some 
road. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Until  he  runs? 

Mr.  Carter:     lentil  he  rnns. 

Mr.  Sheean:  .Vssnmin,i>-  thai  he  makes  one  run  a>  an  engi- 
neer in  a  ])usy  time  in  the  month  of  October  tliat  yon  spoke  of — 

Mr.  (^arter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  His  seniority  dates  from  that  date  on  which 
he  makes  liis  first  trip  as  an  engineer? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Slieean:  And,  that  inay  be  the  only  tri})  that  lie  makes 
as  an  engineer,  and  yet  his  seniority  as  an  engineer  dates  from 
that  time? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  I  understood  you  to  say  that,  in  a  list  of 
29,000  ]ieoi)h'  who  were  firing  on  a  particular  date,  about  5,000 
were  those  who  liad  at  some  time  oi)erated  as  engineers? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  so  understood. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  there  were  abont  twenty  per  cent  of 
men  on  a  date  named  in  your  form  who,  by  reason  of  their  ap- 
prenticeshii^,  although  firing  on  that  date,  were  qualified  to 
act  as  engineers  when  opportunity  came  and  gave  them  that 
business? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  understand  about  twenty  ]ier  cent  of  the  real 
engineers,  men  who  thought  they  were  engineers  for  life,  were 
back  firiiii"-  on  February  1,  1i)14. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  you  not  think  it  is  a  i)ro]ier  ])ractice  that 
in  railroad  ()]»eration,  in  which  the  fireman  eventually  becomes 
an  engineer,  there  should  be  in  that  service  men  who  are  quali- 
fi«'(l  to  become  engineers  with  the  expansion  of  business  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  Without  an  expression  of  opinion  on  that  spe- 
cial answer  I  will  say  that  I  think  the  practice  we  are  discussing 
is  proper  jiractice. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Of  having  about  twenty  per  cent  of  tho.se 

Mr.  Carter:     Xo,  no ! 

Mr.  Sheean:     T  will  not  limit  the  i)er  cent,  but,  of  ha\'ing 


r*  ■  #  1  ^^  ----^  •  • , 


663 

available  in  the  uext  order  of  promotion  men  who  have  already 
(jualified  by  examination? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr,  Sheean :     To  operate  the  engines  as  engineers  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  You  are  mistaken.  On  some  railroads  fire- 
men are  required  to  pass  annual  examinations,  and  at  the  end 
of  three  years  or  three  years  and  a  half  they  pass  their  final  ex- 
amination and  receive  a  certificate  of  qualification  as  engineers. 
Now,  it  is  not  necessary  that  that  man  should  make  one  trip  in 
order  to  be  available.  He  is  just  as  available  before  he  makes 
the  first  trip  as  he  is  after  he  makes  the  trip. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  understand  you  to  say — I  may  be  wrong 
about  that — that  on  some  roads  his  date  of  seniorit\^  began  from 
the  time  that  he  was  qualified,  under  their  examination  and 
rules,  to  operate  as  an  engineer,  and  on  other  roads  that  it  be- 
gan from  the  time  that  he  made  his  first  trip  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  On  roads  where  engineers  are  hired,  such  a 
practice  could  not  prevail. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  that  comes  to  another  thing,  the  mat- 
ter of  whether  the  roads  can  or  cannot  hire  engineers  without 
promoting  tliem  is  usually  covered  by  schedule  provisions,  is  it 
not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Some  provision. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Some  provision! 

Mr.  Carter:      Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  As  to  how  many  may  be  hired  by  the  railroad 
instead  of  promoted;  there  is  usually  some  provision  in  that  re- 
gard, is  there  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  some  schedules  go  as  far  as  to  prohibit 
the  railroad  company  from  hiring  engineers  as  engineers,  do 
they  not? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  do  not  recall  any  special  road,  but  I  am  (luite 
sure  some  roads  do  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :     There  is  that  practice  then! 

Mr.  Carter :     On  some  roads. 

Mr.  Sheean :  On  some  roads.  As  to  other  roads  there  are 
schedule  provisions  that  only  a  certain  proportion,  or  percent- 
age, of  the  engineers  shall  be  hired  as  engineers,  and  that  all  the 
rest  shall  be  promoted  from  the  ranks  of  the  firemen? 


GG4 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes. 

Mr.  Slieean :  So  that  the  matter  of  hiring  engineers,  even 
during  rusli  business  iii)()n  particular  roads,  is  not  left  entirely 
to  the  judgment  and  discretion  of  the  management  of  those 
roads,  is  it  ? 

Mr.  Carter  :  L  think  that  whenever,  in  their  judgment,  they 
want  to  hire  ten  engineers,  unless,  as  I  said  before,  business  is 
good  all  over  the  country,  they  will  certainly  be  able  to  hire  those 
ten  engineers,  and  experience  in  the  past  demonstrates  that  they 
do  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Assuming  that  their  practice,  their  rule,  their 
schedule  provision  or  their  understanding  with  their  firemen  is 
that  they  shall  not  hire  engineers — 

Mr.  Carter :  AVell,  where  there  are  such  rules,  I  tliink  they 
are  wrong,  and  I  think  they  ought  to  change  them. 

Mr.  Sheean  :     You  think  they  ought  to  be  changed  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  would  you  be  willing  to  recommend  to 
your  organization  that  if  there  are  any  such  rules  on  any  of  these 
railroads,  that  they  be  so  changed? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  long  advocated  that  the  promotion  and 
hiring  of  engineers  should  depend  upon  the  length  of  time  that 
firemen  are  required  to  fire  on  a  road  before  promotion. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  mean  that  the  particular  proA'ision  that  en- 
gineers shall  not  be  hired — 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  told  you  what  I  would  substitute  there- 
for. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  you  do  not  tliink  tliat  is  a  proper  sched- 
ule provision? 

Mr.  Carter :     1  think  it  is  rather  a  narrow  view. 

Mr.  Slieean :  You  do  not  approve  of  some  agreement  br 
understanding  with  reference  to  the  percentage  or  proportion 
that  shall  be  hired  and  the  percentage  or  proportion  that  sliall  be 
promoted,  do  you .' 

Mr.  ('artci- :     1  have  advocated  that  for  a  long  while. 

Mr.  Sheean:     For  a  long  time? 

Ml.  Carter:  But,  1  have  not  been  able  to  accomplish  my 
purpose. 

Mr.  Sheean:  H\\\,  iierhajjs  they  could  not  agree  as  to  the 
percentage.     But,  you  do  agree — 


665 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  1  will  tsay  tliis  iiiiicli:  1  think  it  ia  a  case 
of  conservatism.  What  has  been,  remains,  and  1  think  that 
applies  both  to  the  hiring  of  the  men  and  the  i)romoting  of  them. 

Mr,  Sheean :  It  is  a  fact,  is  it  not,  Mr.  Carter,  that  whether 
a  railroad  have  the  right  to  hire  engineers  or  whether  they  must 
promote  firemen,  and,  if  so,  in  what  proi)ortions  they  may  hire 
and  in  what  proportions  promote,  are  matters  of  discussion  as 
between  the  railroad  company  and  the  organization? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  it  has  been  adjusted  amicably  to  both 
sides.  Where  firemen  have  succeeded  in  getting  a  rule  pro- 
hibiting the  hiring  of  engineers,  it  has  always  been  with  the 
consent  of  the  officials  of  that  road. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Oh,  undoubtedly,  but  these  agreements  have 
been  reached,  have  they  not  I 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  suppose,  an  agreement  always  implies  that 
it  is  with  the  consent  of  the  parties  making  it. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  mean  to  say  that  there  was  no  great  pres- 
sure necessary  to  get  them  to  consent  to  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  jou  do  think,  A\dthout  limiting 
you  to  any  percentage,  that  it  is  a  proper  and  safe  and  prudent 
practice  that  a  part  of  the  force  of  firemen  should  be  qualified 
to  operate  as  engineers,  even  though  they  are  not  in  charge  of 
engines  and  drawing  salaries  as  engineers  on  particular  days ! 

Mr.  Carter:  I  not  only  think  that,  but  I  know  it  to  be  a 
fact  that,  on  practically  all  railroads,  except  where  business  has 
increased  very  rapidly,  they  have  an  abundance  of  firemen  who 
would  easily  qualify.  For  instance,  out  of  this  city,  I  w^ould  not 
be  surprised  if  you  had  firemen  firing  engines  who,  since  they 
first  began  firing,  have  been  in  the  service  ten,  twelve  and  four- 
teen years. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  you  have  made  no  compilation  of  any- 
thing of  that  sort? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     In  fhis  exhibit  at  least? 

Mr.  Carter:     No^  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  this  exhibit,  Mr.  Carter,  as  I  get  the  fo»m 
of  request  that  was  sent  out — by  the  way,  the  form  of  that  re- 
quest was  outlined  by  the  proponents  of  this  new  schedule,  was 
it  not? 


666 

Mr.  (aitor:  No,  I  will  say  tlio  qiu^stioiis  wore  asked  and 
the  Maiiaii:ers'  Coiimiittee  devised  that  form,  and  l)eliind  their 
hacks  I  have  comi)liinented  them. 

Mr.  Slieean :  After  yonr  request  was  sent  out,  tliey  sub- 
mitted this  ii-eneral  form  to  you,  to  see  wliether  or  not  it  did 
furnish  all  of  the  infoi'mation  that  you  soupfht  to  elicit  by  the 
questions  ? 

Mr.  Carter:      1  think  so. 

]\Ir,  Sheean:  And  whethei-  that  was  a  satisfactory  form 
OH  which  to  compile  that  information? 

]\Ir.  Carter:  Yes,  sir;  that  I  think  covers  everything  we 
asked  them. 

]\Ir.  Slieean  :  Mr.  Carter,  if  you  will  turn,  please,  to  page  6, 
form  J(),  the  heading  there  is  "Wages  Earned  as  Engineers," 
and  1  notice  under  the  first  name  there,  L.  R.  Proudfit,  October, 
1912,  $4.40  extended  there.  That  indicates  that  Mr.  Proudfit 
made  just  one  trij)  as  engineer  that  month,  does  it  not"? 

Mr.  Carter:  To  me  that  would  indicate  that  in  AugTist, 
1912,  the  list  was  cut,  and  in  September,  October,  November, 
December,  1912,  January  and  February,  1913,  he  was  on  the 
Firemen's  List:  and  in  October,  1912,  lie  made  a  trip  as  an 
engineer. 

Mr.  Sheean :  He  made  just  one  trip  as  an  engineer,  one 
hundred  miles  or  less,  ten  hours  or  less? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  got  $4.40  for  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  that  is  what  I  would  understand. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  your  monthly  averages  here  that  you  have 
subsequently  extended,  you  have  shown  Mr.  Proudfit  as  earn- 
ing $4.40.  He  counts  as  one  month  and  as  one  man,  with  one 
month's  pay  of  $4.40,  does  he? 

]\lr.  Carter:     Yes.  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  extends  throughout  all  of  these 
averages,  that  if  a  man  made  a  single  trip  as  an  engineer,  his 
average  wage  as  engineer  would  average  that  one  triji? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  vou  will  find  that  the  real  difference 
between  what  the  engineer  would  have  earned,  had  he  not  been 
set  back,  will  be  found  by  refeiring  to  form  17,  hired  engineers. 
That  shows,  I  think,  what  is  the  true  earnings  of  the  engineer. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Now,  ^Ir.  Carter,  if  in  the  month  of  October, 


667 

11)12,  Mr.  L.  R.  Proudfit,  shown  as  eaiiiing-  $4.4U  as  engineer, 
also  earned  the  sum  of  $117.51  as  fireman,  do  vou  think  that  vour 
average  in  which  you  carry  out  his  wage  as  $4.40,  is  a  fan- 
average  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Absolutely  fair,  because  if  you  will  read  the 
heading  and  read  the  introductory,  you  will  see  that  the  only 
purpose  has  been  to  show  the  earnings  as  engineers.  Now, 
if  it  was  not  my  purpose  to  put  a  danger  signal  there  against 
anybody  misunderstanding  its  purport,  I  would  not  have  said, 
''Wages  earned  as  engineers,  by  engineers  who  have  been  pro- 
moted." I  think  that  the  thing  itself  explains  why  it  does  not 
show  all  the  earnings. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  this  man,  during  that  month,  as- 
suming that  he  did  earn  $117.51,  as  fireman,  and  made  one  trip 
as  an  engineer,  was  practically  a  fireman  during  that  month, 
was  he  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Except  that  trip. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Except  that  one  trip.  And  you  average  that 
one  trip  with  the  earnings  tlirougli  the  other  months  included  in 
that  form? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir,  that  is  for  promoted  engineers  and  not 
for  hired  engineers. 

Mr.  Sheean :     No,  that  is  for  a  promoted  engineer. 
Mr.  Carter :     That  is  for  a  promoted  engineer,  yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Sheean:     Now,  Mr.  Carter,  in  all  of  the  averages  that 
you  have  obtained  as  to  promoted  engineers,  does  that  ignore 
in  the  getting  of  the  averages,  any  of  the  earnings  that  the  man 
may  have  made  as  fireman  during  that  same  period! 

Mr.  Carter:  It  does  not  ignore  that  fact,  because,  if  you 
will  trace  those  volumes,  I  think  that  any  man,  who  has  been 
in  close  touch  with  the  railroad  business,  can  almost  tell  in- 
stantly when  that  man  has  been  on  the  Engineers'  Extra  List, 
running  as  an  engineer,  and  when  he  is  back,  firing  during 
emergency  running. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  taking  that  same  form,  we  will  say  on 
page  6,  and  beginning  with  the  first  item  in  it,  Mr.  L.  R.  Proud- 
fit,  he  was  promoted  since  January  1,  1912,  and  he  earned  as 
engineer,  $132.17. 

Mr.  Carter :     The  first  month. 
Mr.  Sheean :     The  first  month. 


668 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  don 't  know  whether  in  that  month,  and 
before  his  promotion,  he  earned  any  other  sum  as  fireman,  do 
vou? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  I  do  not,  but  I  am  going  to  guess  that 
he  did  not  earn  much. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  Mr.  Proudfit's  earnings  there 
as  engineer  are  carried  out  through  the  total  year  as  being 
$291.39. 

Mr.  Carter:  Three  months  of  which  he  did  not  work  at 
all,  and  two  months  of  which  he  only  made  emergency  trips. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  getting  at  your  average  earnings  as  engi- 
neers, under  your  system  that  you  adopted,  what  did  you  show 
as  an  average  earning  for  Mr.  Proudfit? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  would  have  to  go  through  these  to  find  what 
form  it  is.  You  see  there  are  so  many  of  these  forms,  and  at 
random  I  picked  this  out  of  the  Illinois  Central  Railroad,  and 
I  would  have  to  go  through  it.  I  can  do  that,  however,  if  you 
have  time — no,  I  haven't  the  Illinois  Central  in  this  book.  The 
Illinois  Central  would  fall  in  volume  2  or  volume  3. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Can't  you  tell  from  this  exhibit  on  page  6, 
as  to  what  amount  of  monthly  earnings,  or  what  class  you  put 
Mr.  Proudfit  in,  whether  he  is  a  $40  or  a  $100  a  month  man  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  should  say,  for  a  guess,  that  he  would  fall 
within  about  the  $30  bunch. 

Mr.  Sheean:  $30  a  month,  engineers.  And  if  it  should 
develop  that  Mr.  Proudfit,  in  fact,  drew  over  $100  a  month  during 
that  entire  year,  averaged  $100  a  month,  that  would  not  change 
the  deductions  that  you  are  making  from  these  tables ! 

Mr.  Carter :  I  hope  that  you  will  not  convince  the  Board 
that  I  am  making  deductions  that  I  am  trying  to  deny.  I  am 
telling  you  that  the  purpose  of  this  table  was  to  show  the  wages 
earned  as  engineers,  by  engineers,  who  have  been  promoted. 
Now,  if  it  was  my  purpose  to  convey  the  idea  that  that  is  all 
that  they  earned,  I  would  not  have  said  "Wages  Earned  by 
Engineers,  by  Engineers." 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  I  understood  you  to  say  this 
morning  that  after  a  man  had  gotten  up  in  the  firing  service 
to  where  he  got  a  reasonably  steady  wage  as  fireman  and  then 
when  he  was  promoted  as  engineer,  you  had  the  ascending  scale 


669 

and,  then,  as  you  described  it,  a  descending-  scale,  by  reason  of 
his  becoming  an  engineer? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  then  have  to  go  tlirough  all  of  this  pro- 
ceeding once  more? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes  sir,  and  sometimes  three  or  four  times. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  taking  the  first  example  that  we  find 
here  on  page  6,  if,  in  fact,  in  addition  to  all  of  the  earnings,  as 
an  engineer,  which  you  say  Mr.  Proudfit  received,  averaging  $30, 
or  thereabouts,  a  month,  he  received  over  $1200  as  fireman  dur- 
ing that  same  period,  or  during  that  same  year 

Mr.  Carter :  I  would  say  that  he  was  a  very  fortunate  in- 
dividual, and  no  wonder  his  name  heads  the  list. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Let  us  take  the  second  man  then,  Mr.  Prouty. 
Where  do  you  put  Mr.  Prouty  as  to  his  earnings  as  an  engineer 
during  that  year?  He  is  also  a  man  promoted  since  January  1st, 
1912,  and  this  is  beginning  with  the  very"  month  in  which  he  was 
promoted. 

Yes. 
Do  vou  show  earninii's  there  as  engineer  of 


Mr. 

Carter : 

Mr. 

Sheean 

$313.12. 

Mr. 

Carter : 

engineer 

•at  all? 

Five  months  of  which  he  did  not  ^^•ork  as  an 

Mr.  Sheean:  If,  during  that  same  year,  from  January  to 
January,  Mr.  Prouty  earned  over  one  thousand  dollars  as  fire- 
man, making  a  total  of  thirteen  hundred  dollars,  all  during  the 
year,  or  nearly  fourteen  hundred  dollars,  would  that  also  show 
the  dip  in  service  that  you  spoke  of,  immediately  following  pro- 
motion? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  sir,  because  if  that  is  the  practice  on  the 
Illinois  Central  Railroad,  they  are  violating  a  well  established 
practice  on  every  other  railroad,  and  if  I  picked  out  a  road,  the 
Illinois  Central  Railroad,  that  violates  all  the  practices  generally 
in  effect,  why,  I  was  very  unfortunate  in  picking^  out  such  a  rail- 
road. You  will  understand,  that  in  90  per  cent  of  the  practice 
that  the  man  is  actually  promoted  and  placed  on  the  engineers' 
extra  list,  and  while  he  is  on  the  engineers'  extra  list  he  does  not 
do  any  firing;  it  is  only  when  he  is  cut  off  the  list  that  he  does 
firing.  Now,  if  the  Illinois  Central  does  not  maintain  an  engi- 
neers' extra  list  and  have  their  firemen  doing  their  work,  they 


670 

are  doing  au  injustice  to  the  tiremen.  They  ought  to  promote 
thcni  and  make  engineers  of  them. 

Mr.  Slieean  :  I  understood  this  exhibit  was  of  the  men  who 
were  in  fact  promoted  to  become  engineers,  and  was  compiled 
to  show  the  "chrysalis  state"  I  l)elieve  you  spoke  of  this  morn- 
ing, intermediate  between  the  regular  run  and  abandoning  his 
run  i)ermanently  as  a  fireman. 

Mr.  Carter:  When  I  made  that  statement  I  did  not  have  in 
view  any  road  that  is  an  excei)tion  to  the  rule. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  only  other  one  that  is  on  this  exhibit  that 
1  have  the  details  of  is  form  17,  on  the  next  page,  page  8. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  shall  make  inquiry  to  find  out  why,  on  the 
Illinois  Central  Eailroad,  they  use  firemen  to  run  their  engines. 

The  Chairman:  Will  you  kindly  suspend,  Mr.  Sheean? 
We  will  adjoui-H  until  10  o'clock  tomorrow  mornin"-. 

(Whereupon,  at  5  o'clock  P.  M.,  December  8,  1914,  an  ad- 
journment was  taken  until  10  o'clock  A.  M.,  December  9,  1914.) 


671 


IN  THE  MATTER  OF  THE 

ARBITEATION 

behveen  the 

WESTERN  RAILWAYS 

and 

BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 

ENGINEERS 

and 

BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE  FIRE-' 

MEN  AND  ENGINEMEN 

under  the  Act  approved  July  15,  1913,  by  ayree- 

ment  dated  August  3,  1914. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  December  9,  1914. 

Met,  pursuant  to  adjounnnent,  at  10  o'clock  A.  M. 
Present:    Arbitrators  and  ])arties  as  before. 

W.  S.  CARTER  was  recalled  for  further  e.xamination  and, 
having  been  previously  sworn,  testiiied  as  follows : 

Mr.  Sheean:  May  it  please  the  Board,  in  yesterday's  pro- 
ceedings Mr.  Stone  requested  that  F  furnish  to  him  a  list  of  the 
roads  where  engineers  ])erforming  s])ecial  service  were  guaran- 
teed the  amount  which  they  would  make  "on  their  regular  assign- 
ments. In  pursuance  of  that  request  I  have  prepared  a  partial 
list,  which  gives  reference  to  the  schedule  ])rovisions  from  which 
the  statement  made  yesterday  was  taken.  I  will  begin  with  the 
Southern  Pacific  Company  (Pacific  System). 

Southern  Pacific  Company  (Pacific  System). 

Art.  26.  Engineers  held  at  any  point  for  special  service 
will  be  paid  one  day's  pay  at  the  minimum  rate  of  the  division 
and  for  service  so  held  for  each  calendar  day  on  which  no  service 
is  begun.  When  held  at  home  terminals,  the  time  to  be  computed 
from  the  time  he  should  have  been  sent  out  in  his  regular  turn. 
Engineers  on  assigned  runs  so  held  shall  receive  not  less  than  if 
not  held  off  his  run. 

The  Missouri  Pacific  Railway  Company. 

Art.  20.     When  an  engineer  is  taken  off  his  regular  run  to 


672 

handle  an  official  special,  or  similar  service,  and  does  not  make 
the  regular  allowance  made  on  his  regular  run,  he  will  be  allowed 
not  less  than  sitch  regular  allowance,  not  including  overtime. 

Northern  Pacific  Railway  Company. 

Rule  89.  Wlien  engineers  are  held  for  special  service  from 
their  regular  service  (regular  run,  chain  gang  or  extra  list)  the 
time  so  held,  to  a  maximum  of  ten  hours  in  any  twenty-four 
hour  period,  will  be  added  to  the  time  or  mileage  made  on  the 
trip.  If  held  and  not  used  they  will  be  allowed  ten  hours  for 
each  twenty-four  hour  period  so  held,  at  rate  applying  to  engine 
and  service  in  which  last  used. 

Engineers  so  held  will  he  paid  not  less  than  they  would  have 
earned  in  their  regular  service. 

Cotton  Belt  Route  (St..L.  S.  W.  Ry.). 

Art.  40.  Par.  (e).  The  Company  will  select  such  engi- 
neers for  special  passenger  service,  as  in  its  judgment  is  neces- 
sary. If  the  engineer  (extra  man  excepted)  selected  for  such 
service  does  not  earn  as  much  in  the  aggregate  as  he  would 
have  earned  had  he  remained  on  his  regular  run,  he  shall  be 
paid  for  time  lost. 

Great  Northern  Railway  Company, 

Rule  17.  When  engineers  are  held  from  their  runs  or  serv- 
ice, their  pay  until  their  return  to  their  runs  or  service  shall  not 
be  less  tlmn  it  would  have  been  had  such  interruption  to  their 
regular  work  not  occurred. 

New  Orleans,  Texas  &  Mexico  R.  R.  Co. 

The  Beaumont,  Sour  Lake  &  Western  Ry.  Co. 

The  Orange  &  Northwestern  R.  R.  Co. 

Sec.  9,  Regularly  assigned  engineers  who  may  be  held  for 
special  service  or  runs  will  be  paid  the  same  as  they  would  have 
made  had  they  remained  on  their  runs,  except  compensation  for 
special  service  is  greater,  in  which  case  the  highest  rate  of  pay 
will  be  allowed. 

St.  Louis.  San  Francisco  &  Texas  Ry.  Co. 
Ft.  Worth  &  Rio  Grande  Ry.  Co. 

Art.  6.  Sec.  1.  Engineers  held  for  special  service  at  any 
point  (if  regularly  assigned  men),  shall  be  paid  for  time  lost 


mJ 


673 

before  being  used,  provided  tliat  the  compensation  received  is 
less  than  on  regular  run. 

St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco  E.  E.  Co. 

Art.  7.  Sec.  1.  Engineers  held  for  special  service  at  any 
point  (if  regularly  assigned  men),  shall  be  paid  for  time  lost 
before  being  used,  provided  that  the  compensation  received  is 
less  than  on  regular  run. 

Other  engineers  will  be  paid  one  day  at  passenger  rate  for 
each  twenty-four  hours  or  fraction  thereof,  provided  they  would 
have  made  other  mileage  if  not  so  held. 

San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass  Ry.  Co. 

Art.  19.  1  (a).  When  an  engineer  is  taken  off  his  regular 
assigned  run  for  other  service,  he  will  be  paid  for  all  time  or 
mileage  actuaUy  lost  hy  such  change. 

Spokane,  Portland  &  Seattle  Ry.  Co. 

Rule  11.  When  engineers  are  held  from  their  turn  or  train 
for  special  service  on  a  run,  they  ivill  be  paid  not  less  than  they 
ivoidd  have  received  had  they  remained  on  their  regular  run, 
and,  if  held  at  a  point  to  await  the  return  of  such  train,  they  will 
be  ]iaid  at  the  same  rate  while  so  held. 

St.  Louis,  Brownsville  &  Mexico  Railway. 

Engineers  losing  time  in  special  service  shall  be  reimbursed 
for  all  lost  time. 

Western  Pacific  Railway. 

Sec.  15.  Engineers  handling  officers'  specials,  pay  trains, 
or  inspection  trains  will  be  paid  at  passenger  rates.  If  taken 
off  regTilar  runs  to  handle  such  trains  and  do  not  make  as  much 
as  would  have  been  made  on  regular  runs,  they  ivill  be  allowed 
not  less  than  their  regular  run  would  have  paid. 

Canadian  Pacific  Railway. 

Art.  15.  Engineers  held  olT  on  company's  business  will  be 
paid  schedule  rates  for  mileage  lost,  and  extra  men  will  be  paid 
a  minimum  of  one  hundred  miles  for  each  day  of  twenty-four 
hours  so  held,  and  will  be  reimbursed  reasonable  expenses  when 
away  from  home. 

Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  &  Sault  Ste.  Marie  Railway. 

Art.  16.     When  engineers  are  assigned  to  regular  runs  or 


674 

enj^nes  and  are  held  from  such  runs  or  engines  for  special  trains 
or  service  they  shall  he  paid  for  the  time  lost  on  their  run  or 
evffine. 

Mr.  Stone:  If  I  may  ask,  and  this  is  digressing  from  the 
testimony  of  the  witness — do  you  know  tliat  these  men  that  are 
hehl  for  this  service  on  these  different  roads  are  paid  in  accord- 
ance with  these  agreements  you  have  just  read? 

Ml".  Slioean :  I  have  no  knowledge.  You  asked  me  yester- 
day to  furnish  you  a  reference  to  any  schedule  i)ro\dsions.  I 
have  no  knowledge  of  the  operations  on  any  road,  but  I  assume — 
I  don't  know  that  I  have  any  right  to  make  any  assumption 
because  I  will  say  frankl>'  T  liave  no  knowledge  of  any  oper- 
ations. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  I  was  wondering  was  whether  they  were 
paid  according  to  this  rule  or  whether  it  is  another  switch  en- 
gine case  like  the  Northern  Pacific  that  we  have  referred  to, 
where  it  was  not  paid  so  as  to  bring  it  Ijefore  this  Arbitration. 
Take  the  Minneapolis  &  St.  Paul  provision,  I  would  like  to  call 
your  attention  to  the  reading  of  the  article :  ' '  When  engineers 
are  assigned  to  regular  runs  or  engines" — it  does  not  say  the 
great  rank  and  file  of  men  who  are  perliai)s  assigned  to  neither. 
The  same  is  true  of  the  Western  Pacific  where  it  says, ' '  If  taken 
off  regular  runs."  The  great  rank  and  file  of  men  are  not  on 
regular  runs.  The  same  is  true  of  the  Missouri  Pacific,  where  it 
says,  ''When  an  engineer  is  taken  off  his  regular  run."  It  is 
safe  to  say  that  90  per  cent  of  the  men  are  not  on  regular  runs. 
The  same  is  true  of  the  San  Antonio  &  Aransas  Pass.  It  is 
a  very  easy  matter  to  verify  that  a  great  joercentage  of  the  men 
are  not  assigned  on  either  regular  service  or  assigned  runs. 
I  have  not  had  time  to  cheek  it  over.  I  question  whether  it  is  of 
very  great  importance,  one  way  or  the  other. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  order  that  there  may  be  no  misunderstand- 
ing, I  want  to  call  the  Board's  attention  to  the  colloquy  which 
took  place  at  page  616  of  the  record. 

"Mr.  Stone:  Coming  back  to  that  question  of  l>eing  called 
for  special  service.  I  believe  you  said  that  the  man  was  guaran- 
teed the  amount  he  would  make  on  his  run  while  he  was  on 
special  service.  Can  you  refer  me  to  any  rule  in  any  schedule 
that  guarantees  any  such  thing? 


675 

"Mr.  Carter:  1  have  such  confidence  in  counsel  for  the 
railroads  that  when  he  says  a  thing  is  true  I  liave  gotten  into 
the  habit  of  saying  yes.  I  don't  know  wliother  that  is  true 
or  not. 

"Mr.  Stone:  Well,  not  desiring  to  question  your  con- 
fidence, I  should  like  very  much  to  have  counsel  for  the  railroads 
to  sul)mit  to  me  a  list  of  roads  where  they  guarantee  that  tliat 
man  shall  be  paid  the  same  as  he  would  make  on  his  run. 

' '  Mr.  Sheean  :  A  regularly  assigned  man,  was  the  (luestion, 
was  it  not? 

"Mr.  Stone:     I  think  it  was  a  regularly  assigned  man. 

' '  Mr.  Sheean :     I  will  try  to  look  it  up. ' ' 

W.  S.  CARTER  was  recalled  for  further  examination,  and 
having  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  pleases,  Mr.  Carter  desires  to 
make  a  correction  or  two  iu  the  record. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  find  on  reading  that  part  of  testimony  re- 
ported on  page  621  of  the  proceedings  of  December  8,  that  my 
replies  to  Mr.  Nagel  were  perhaps  inaccurate.  I  think  a  reading 
of  all  of  my  replies  to  Mr.  Nagel  would  indicate  that  there  was 
a  failure  on  my  part  to  concentrate  my  mind  upon  the  questions 
asked  and  the  particular  correction  I  want  to  make  is  that  where 
Mr.  Nagel  asked  the  question  and  in  reply  I  sav,  "I  didn't  catch 
that." 


"Mr.  Nagel:  Well,  you  have  wages  from  65  to  75  or  80 
cents  an  hour  in  the  industrial  lines  in  different  parts  of  this 
territory.  You  average  them  to  show  what  a  reasonable  wage 
would  be,  and  in  doing  it  you  have  to  admit  that  different  wages 
obtain  in  different  parts  of  this  territory,  the  very  condition 
from  which  you  seek  to  escape  with  respect  to  your  own  de- 
mands 'I 

'  *  Mr.  Carter :  There  is  no  question  of  that.  I  think  there  is 
an  effort  on  the  part  of  all  to  standardize. 

' '  Mr.  Nagel :  Is  there  any  reason  in  your  mind  why  stand- 
ardization should  be  insisted  upon  in  reference  to  locomotive 
engineers  and  firemen,  when  it  does  not  obtain  in  the  usual 
industrial  employments? 

"Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  there  is  an  approximate 
approach  to  standardization  in  the  list  of  wages  I  sliowed  you 


676 

here,  witli  sliglitly  varying  latos  on  account  of  conditions,  but — 

**Mr.  Nagel :  Before  we  go  to  that,  as  I  remember  it,  even 
in  tlie  large  cities,  there  is  a  variation  anywhere  from  65  to  75 
cents  an  hour;  isn't  that  true? 

"Mr.  Garter:  I  don't  recall  that.  Do  you  mean  between 
Bohemian  unions  and  Hebrew  unions? 

'*Mr.  Nagel :     No,  the  men  in  a  particular  employment. 

"Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  think  so,  not  in  the  same  employ- 
ment. There  is  that  variation  between  one  class  of  employment 
and  another,  yes,  sir.  For  instance,  a  hod  carrier  does  not  get 
as  much  as  a  bricklayer." 

By  referring  to  i)age  i)03  of  the  proceedings  of  Deceml)ei-  7 
you  will  note  that  1  specifically  stated  just  the  facts  that  Mr. 
Nagel  tried  to  bring  out,  but,  for  some  reason,  I  did  not  grasp 
exactly  what  was  meant.  By  reference  to  page  503,  you  will  note 
that  1  do  acknowledge  that  there  is  a  variation  of  rates,  and  I 
want  to  apologize  for  my  seeming  inattention  to  your  inquiry. 

Mr.  Xagel:     No  ai)ology  is  needed. 

Mr.  Carter:     I  did  not  grasp  it  somehow  or  other. 

Mr.  Xagel:  I  am  glad  I  am  not  in  your  place.  I  would 
probably  be  more  confused. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Mr,  Carter,  at  the  time  of  adjournment  last 
evening  we  were  talking  of  form  16,  as  shown  on  page  6,  of  your 
Exhibit  No.  8.  I  think  you  stated,  Mr.  Carter,  that  in  the  com- 
pilations based  upon  this  form  16,  that  the  average  eainings  in 
every  case  was  only  the  earnings  as  engineer. 

y\v.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  on  form  16,  the  earnings  of  R.  E. 
Williams  for  June,  1912,  shown  as  one  dollar,  would  be  carried 
out  in  your  averages  as  one  man  w^orking  a  full  month  and  earn- 
ing one  dollar  as  engineer, 

Mr.  (.^arter:     As  an  engineer. 

Mr.  Sheean:    As  an  engineer? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  if,  during  that  month  of  June,  1912, 
Mr.  R.  E.  Williams  earned  $109.46  as  fireman,  making  some  one 
special  trip,  or  being  called  and  not  used  as  an  engineer,  there- 
fore drawing  one  dollar  as  an  engineer,  do  you  think  that  the 
deductions  which  you  base  on  the  assumption  that  his  earnings 
as  an  engineer  were  one  dollar  for  the  entire  month,  are  sound? 


677 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  that  carries  out  exactly  the  iutent  of 
the  table  with  this  exception.  At  the  time  these  deductions  were 
made  I  did  not  know  that  it  was  the  practice  on  any  railroad  to 
have  firemen  on  the  highly  paid  firemen's  jobs  to  protect  the 
engineers'  extra  board.  I  was  of  the  opinion  that  when  it  ap- 
peared that  engineers  were  earning  some  considerable  amount, 
that  that  was  earned  as  an  engineer,  but,  if  you  will  turn  to  page 
12,  I  say:  ''It  will  be  noted  that  in  forms  16,  17  and  18,  many 
blank  lines  appear  for  months  after  engineers  and  firemen  first 
performed  service  as  such.  In  almost  every  case  these  blanks  in 
form  16  indicate  that  the  promoted  engineers  have  been  demoted 
or  set  back,  and  were  then  serving  as  firemen. ' ' 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  if  the  practice  which  is  evi- 
denced as  to  the  Illinois  Central  generally  obtains  upon  these 
railroads,  then  the  deductions  which  you  have  made  here,  are 
unsound,  are  tliej  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  I  could,  not  answer  that  question 
affirmatively,  because  to  do  so  is  to  convey  a  wrong  impression. 
I  Avill  say  to  you  that  the  practice  set  forth  on  pages  6  and  7  is 
not  in  general  practice  on  the  roads. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  that  is  on  6  and  7,  I  understood  you 
to  say — 

Mr.  Carter :     I  meant  to  say  4  and  5. 

Mr.  Sheean:    No,  I  think  it  is  6  and  7. 

Mr.  Carter:     Six  and  7,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If,  Mr.  Carter,  it  should  appear  that  the  total 
earnings  of  the  men  embodied  in  your  form  16  as  engineers  was, 
during  the  period  covered  by  that  exhibit,  about  $3,600,000  while 
the  same  men  during  the  same  period  actually  received  $5,400,- 
000  as  firemen,  would  you  still  say  that  that  practice  was  not  a 
common  practice  on  these  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  would  say  whatever  statements  they  are, 
those  cover  it,  because  you  cover  a  period.  For  instance,  a  fire- 
man may  work  from  January  to  June  as  a  fireman  and  earn  a 
considerable  amount  of  money.  He  may  work  from  June  until 
December  as  an  engineer  and  earn  a  considerable  amount  of 
money.  Then,  if  you  would  make  that  statement  for  that  entire 
year,  it  would  be  foreign  to  the  intent  of  this  exhibit. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If,  during  the  same  month  that  a  man  draws 
one  dollar  as  engineer  it  is  found  that  he  drew  $109  or  $110  as  a 


()78 

fireman.  tluMi  \v(»iiM  llic  'Icductioiis  wliicli  you  liavc  drawn  ))e 
sound  / 

Mr.  Carter:  Xot  in  that  special  case,  for  that  would  indi- 
cate tliat  that  man  was  a  bona  fide  fireman,  not  posin^j;  as  an 
engineer,  but,  that  in  some  emerjLjfency  lie  liad  l)een  called  to  ])ro- 
tect  the  interests  of  the  comi>any  in  the  absence  of  any  extra 
ensfineers  fn^n  that  terminal.  But,  the  other  cases  cited  in  Form 
16  would  indicate  that  instead  of  maintaining  an  extra  list  of 
enufineers  to  do  r'Hirineeis'  woik,  tiie  eniiineei's  are  holdinix  down 
the  hiirh  paid  jobs  as  iiremen,  and  theiefore  the  firemen  never 
get  a  smell  of  those  good  jobs.  Pioudfit,  1  understand,  is  back 
in  fieight  service,  which  would  indicate  that  tliere  are  many 
other  engineers  older  than  he.  We  will  take  Pronty  and  we  will 
take  Silver;  and  if  it  is  a  fact  that  those  men  are  earning  the 
wages  shown  there  while  serving  as  firemen,  it  is  a  most  nnusual 
l)rocedure,  and  one  I  think  very  unfair  on  the  one  hand  to  the 
firemen  who  are  deprived  of  an  opportunity  to  occupy  these  higli 
paid  runs,  and  on  the  other  hand  to  the  hired  engineer,  who  is 
Avalking  the  streets,  without  anything  to  do,  and  yet  these  fire; 
men  are  doing  the  work  that  he  should  be  doing. 

Mr.  Sheean :     You  have  prepared  this  table,  as  I  understood 
it,  for  the  purpose  of  showing  the  fluctuations  in  employment? 
Mr.  Carter:      Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  the  Huctuations  are,  simply,  that  a  man 
on  one  day  is  called  an  engineer,  or  makes  a  run  as  an  engi- 
neer, while  on  the  other  twenty-seven  days  of  these  tw^o  Febru- 
aries  that  you  have  taken,  he  operates  as  fireman,  the  fluctuations 
would  not  be  fluctuations  in  earnings,  but  fluctuations  between 
whether  he  was  designated  an  engineer  part  of  the  month  and  a 
fireman  another  part  of  the  month? 

Mr.  Cart<'r:  ll  would  be  the  fluctuations  in  his  earnings 
as  an  engineer.  But  for  the  one  case  that  you  have  just  speci- 
fied, there  \vill  be  a  hundred  cases  on  Form  15  reported  by  the 
railroads  that  are  not  ai)plicable  to  the  proposition  that  you 
have  just  made.  I  will  say  that  for  one  case  that  you  have 
cited  as  appearing  in  the  practice  on  the  Chicago  Division  of  the 
Illinois  Central  road,  there  will  be  a  hundred  cases,  if  not  five 
hundred  cases,  where  the  men  are  actually  promoted,  and  are 
on  the  engineers'  extra  list,  and  it  shows  all  of  their  earnings 


679 

as  eiigiiieeis.    Therefore,  1  would  say  you  are  ri^lit  to  the  extent 
of  a  ratio  of  one  to  one  hundred. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  this  exhibit,  as  1  understand  you — and 
that  was  all  1  was  cross-examining  you  about — this  exhibit  does 
not  purport  to  show  the  hundreds  of  instances,  or  any  i)articu- 
lar  number  of  instances  in  which  all  of  the  earnings  are  shown 
under  the  heading  of  earnings  aS  engineers  in  the  case  of  pro- 
moted firemen  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  In  every  instance  every  name  that  appears 
on  Form  16,  as  completed  by  the  railroads,  is  transcril)ed  and 
the  deductions  are  made  therefrom.  Unfortunately,  we  did  not 
have  two  coi)ies.  AVe  wanted  to  introduce  that  as  an  exhibit,  and 
make  it  as  much  a  part  of  this  record  as  we  could.  I  understand 
the  Board  lias  that,  and  I  am  going  to  make  this  statement, 
that  where  there  is  one  case  like  you  have  raised  here  there  are 
one  hundred  cases  where  the  promoted  man  does  not  make  a 
penny  as  a  fireman. 

Mr.  Sheean :  As  I  said,  I  am  talking  about  the  exhibit.  Is 
there  anything  from  your  exhibit  by  which  you  can  tell  whether 
the  figures  which  you  have  taken  do  or  do  not  represent  all  of  the 
earnings  of  the  promoted  fireman  who  was  working  as  engineer'? 

Mr.  Carter:     You  simply  have  to  use  your  judgment. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  am  asking,  whether,  from  the  exhibit,  Mr. 
Carter — 

Mr.  Carter:     Do  you  mean  to  say  from  pages  6  and  7"? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Or  any  part  of  the  exhibit. 

Mr.  Carter :     Do  you  mean  the  exhibit  ? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Yes.    Take  your  Table  6. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  will  say  that  Form  16  as  here  reproduced 
is  only  one  of  several  hundred.  Unfortunately  I  took  one  from 
a  road  where  they  use  the  high  paid  jobs  of  firemen  as  a  basis 
of  operation  for  their  engineers,  where  they  deprive  firemen  of 
the  right  of  firing  the  high  paid  runs,  giving  them  to  engineers, 
and  where,  if  a  hired  engineer  was  demoted,  instead  of  returning 
him  to  the  extra  list,  as  they  should  do,  they  leave  the  extra 
engineer  to  walk  the  street,  where  this  fireman  is  doing  the  work. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  coming  back  to  the  question  that  I  last 
asked  you,  are  you  able  to  tell,  from  the  Exhibit,  or  any  informa- 
tion contained  in  the  exhibits,  whether,  in  your  Table  9,  under 
the  headings  "Earnings  for  months,"  there  set  out,  you  have 


680 

or  have  not  includod  all  of  the  earnings  of  those  men  for  those 
months  t 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  not  pretended  to.  I  think  I  specifically- 
state  that  when  they  are  set  back  as  firemen  it  is  not  included. 
I  will  read  it  again,  page  12:  *'In  almost  every  instance  these 
blank  lines  in  Form  16  indicate  that  the  promoted  engineers  have 
been  demoted  or  set  back  and  are  then  serving  as  firemen." 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  taking  a  particular  month's  earnings 
— for  the  month  of  February — is  there  anything  in  any  of  the 
tables  by  which  you  can  tell  whether  all  of  the  earnings  during 
that  month  are  embodied  in  the  columns  from  which  your  aver- 
age is  made? 

Mr.  Carter:  Do  you  mean  in  the  Forms  15  furnished  by 
the  railroads? 

Mr.  Sheean:  No,  I  meant  in  the  tables  from  which  you 
derive  it. 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  there  is  nothing  in  that  table,  not  the 
Chicago  Division  of  the  Illinois  Central. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  am  talking  about  your  general  tables. 

Mr.  Carter :     Do  you  mean  Form  15,  from  which  it  is  taken? 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes,  and  therefore  the  derivations  which  you 
make  from  that. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  will  say  that  any  man  who  has  a  general 
knowledge  of  the  practice  ordinarily  followed  would  determine 
when  a  promoted  engineer  was  scheduled  as  a  promoted  engineer 
or  as  a  fireman  used  only  in  emergency  cases.  I  think  you  will 
find  on  Form  15,  as  furnished  by  all  the  railroads,  there  is  an 
indication  to  anyone  who  has  technical  information,  and  for 
every  case  like  that  found  on  the  Chicago  Division  of  the  Illinois 
Central  Eailroad  you  will  find  100  cases  where  these  promoted 
men's  wages,  as  reported  on  Form  15,  cover  every  penny  they 
made,  and  they  are  not  back,  firing. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Can  you  tell  from  this  exhibit  what  part  of 
the  exhibit  is  made  up  to  include  all  of  the  earnings  during  the 
month,  or  what  proportion  of  it? 

Mr.  Carter:    Not  accurately. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  turning  to  your  Form  15,  Mr.  Carter,  at 
page  5, 1  note  that  among  the  questions  asked  under  3(b),  there 
was  asked:  "What  proportion  of  his  time,  prior  to  February  1, 
1914,  has  he  been  employed  as  an  engineer,  and  what  proportion 


681 

as  a  fireman,  since  his  first  promotion  to  the  i)ositiou  of  en- 
gineer?" Was  any  tabulation  or  assembling  of  that  data  made 
in  any  of  your  tables  here? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  I  think  not;  but  1  tliiiik  tliat  answers 
the  question  that  you  have  been  asking  me  for  a  long  while,  and 
that  I  should  have  answered,  and  I  am  obliged  to  you  for  calling 
my  attention  to  that  (luestion.  It  shows  that  on  that  seniority 
district,  that  this  man  Krafezik  worked  twelve  months  as  an 
engineer  and  twenty-seven  months  as  a  fireman.  Now,  I  think 
it  was  the  intent  of  the  one  who  prepared  that  statement  to  state 
that  for  twelve  months  he  was  an  engineer  and  that  for  twenty- 
seven  months  he  was  a  fireman,  and  I  must  apologize  for  over- 
looking that  when  you  asked  me  the  question. 

Mr.  Sheean:  By  the  way,  this  Colorado  &  Southern,  Mr. 
Carter,  is  in  a  rather  unusual  situation,  is  it  not,  as  to  seniority? 

Mr.  Carter:  Unfortunately,  when  I  selected  these  pages 
at  random,  I  found  myself  in  several  unusual  situations,  when 
they  got  into  the  book. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  happened  to  select,  as  to  the  Colorado  & 
Southern,  in  showing  the  length  of  time  between  first  promotion 
down  to  date,  a  road  in  ^vhich  they  had  abandoned  operations  on 
a  part  of  their  line  in  1911,  did  you  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir,  I  had  no  knowledge  of  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  happened  to  select  a  road  on  which  that 
is  the  fact. 

Mr.  Carter:  If  you  say  it  is  the  fact,  I  will  accept  it  as  the 
fact.    I  don't  know  anything  about  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  length  of  time  here,  the  age  of  these  men, 
you  do  know  from  the  averages  which  you  obtained  on  other 
systems,  is  very  much  higher,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  No.  I  think  that  the  exception  of  those  men 
who  apparently  were  engineers  and  w^ere  not  engineers,  such  as 
the  men  Scneder  and  Williamson — ^Williamson  appears  ten  years 
as  an  engineer,  but  they  say  they  used  him  in  emergency  cases 
only.  Scneder  appears  four  years  as  an  engineer  and  they  used 
him  in  emergency  cases  only.  I  want  to  say  to  you  that  I  never 
saw  that  until  after  it  w^as  in  the  book. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  did  not  know  anything  about  the 
change  in  operations  on  the  Colorado  &  Southern  by  which  a 
part  of  their  line  had  been  abandoned  ? 


682 

Mr.  Charter:     No,  sir. 

Ml".  Sliceaii:  And  operations  ceased  in  the  latter  part  of 
li»ll  over  that  part  of  the  line? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  engineers  in  that  situation  would  iro 
back  and  <'xereise  their  seniority  as  firemen? 

.Mr.  Cartel-:     If  that  is  true  I  did  not  know  it  until  now. 

.Mr.  Shccaii:  Well,  under  this  3(b),  Mr.  Carter,  the  infor- 
mation there  furnished  on  all  the  roads,  if  carried  out  and  tabu- 
lated, would  show  about  what  the  average  i)ro])ortion  of  time  of 
these  men  was,  used  as  engineers,  and  what  as  firemen,  during 
this  average  spread  of  3.44  years. 

Mr.  Carter:     What  table  is  it  that  shows  that? 

Mr.  Sheean:  1  don't  find,  Mr.  Carter,  any  table  in  which 
there  is  a  carrying  out  or  extension  of  the  information  which 
you  assemble  under  3(b). 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  but  practically  the  same  thing  is  assem- 
bled under  3(a). 

Mr.  Phillips:     On  ])age  17  you  will  find  the  statement. 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  that  is  not  it.  I  have  a  statement  in  here 
showing  3.44  years  is  the  average. 

Mr.  Trenholm:    Page  32. 

Mr.  Carter:  Thank  you.  By  turning  to- page  32,  you  will 
find  the  average  length  of  seniority,  as  an  engineer,  of  the  oldest 
firemen  firing  on  each  seniority  district,  February  1, 1914.  Now, 
that  took  every  man  reported,  and  in  order  to  show  the  number 
reported,  the  first  column  shows  it  by  railroads,  over  to  page  33. 
Now,  T  did  not  attempt  to  get  an  average  of  the  averages  there. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  on  that  table  6,  page  32,  Mr.  Carter,  that 
table  was  compiled  by  taking  a  named  individual  who,  on  the 
1st  day  of  February,  1914,  was  the  oldest  man  on  that  date  firing 
an  engine. 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  the  average  you  take  is  the  average 
of  the  oldest  men  on  a  i)articular  date  firing  an  engine? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  after  taking  the  oldest  men  on  all  of 
these  railroads  and  averaging  the  oldest  men,  you  reach  the 
conclusion  shown  in  that  table  and  state  it  again  on  page  17, 
that  that  average  was  ."'.44  vears? 


683 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  then,  under  3  (b),  1  would  like  to  know 
whether  you  did  obtain  information  as  to  what  part  of  the  3.44 
years  was  put  in  at  firing-  and  what  part  as  an  engineer. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  did  not;  but  if  the  Board  will  permit  it,  we 
will  recall  the  exhibits  or  volumes,  and  I  will  have  that  statement 
for  you  within  a  very  short  time. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  understand  that  the  basic  figures  are  simply 
here  so  as  to  be  accessible  to  the  Board  or  to  either  of  the  ])ar- 
ties,  for  such  purposes  as  they  may  be  needed. 

Mr.  Carter:  My  re])ly  was  predicated  upon  the  under- 
standing that  YOU  wanted  that  information.  I  will  prepare  it 
for  you. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Tf  that  can  be  readily  prepared,  Mr.  Carter, 
I  should  like  very  much  to  have  it. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  On  page  32,  Mr.  Carter,  Table  (>,  apparently 
the  greatest  length  of  time  or  oldest  average  of  the  oldest  men 
is  the  Pierre,  Rapid  City  &  Northwestern  Railway,  8.08  years? 

Mr.  Carter:  Let  me  see  that.  That  is  under  the  North- 
western, isn't  it? 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes,  under  the  North  Western ;  l^ierre, 
Rapid  City  &  Northwestern  Railway. 

Mr.  Carter :  The  Pierre,  Raind  City  &  Northwestern  Rail- 
way reported  only  one  man,  and  liis  length  of  seniority  as  an 
engineer  was  8.08  years. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Do  you  know  liow  long  that  railroad  is.' 

Mr.  Carter:  I  haven't  any  idea.  As  I  never  heard  of  it 
up  to  this  moment,  I  don't  think  it  is  very  long. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  whether  or  not  that  man  who  has  been 
firing  out  there,  that  one  man  they  reported,  has  no  seniority 
rights  except  on  that  one  division  where  the  engineers  have  been 
operating,  you  do  not  know  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  depended  ujion  the  forms  supplied  by  the 
railroads,  just  like  you  depended  a  while  ago  on  the  rules  from 
the  Engineers'  schedules.    I  have  not  gone  behind  the  returns. 

Mr.  Sheean :  All  that  I  wanted  to  elicit  on  that,  Mr.  Carter, 
was  that  in  getting  this  average  of  the  oldest  man,  you  took  rail- 
roads, some  of  which  you  had  nevei  heard  of  before,  and  in 
reporting  this  average,  a  road  of  that  sort  was  of  just  thn  same 


684 

value  ill  reaching  your  average  and  conclusion  HvS  a  Trans- 
Continental  line? 

Mr.  Carter:  Because  the  railroads  made  a  report  for 
that  line.  U  \  had  oxoludod  it,  I  would  have  been  falsifying 
the  record. 

Mr.  ISheean:  I  am  only  getting  at  how  you  reached  the 
average  time  here,  Mr.  Carter.  That  is,  you  took  each  railroad 
here  as  shown  on  this  page  82,  irrespective  of  its  -length,  loca- 
tion or  operation,  ascertaining  the  oldest  man  on  that  railroad 
who  on  that  i)articular  date  was  tiring,  and  treated  that  as  of 
the  same  weight  as  that  on  a  Trans-Continental  system? 

Mr.  Carter :  In  this  table,  yes ;  I  segregated  this  informa- 
tion by  roads,  not  only  b}'  roads,  but  by  portions  of  roads.  For 
instance,  take  the  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  you  find  seven 
different  reports.  Therefore,  if  there  should  be  some  unusual 
condition  of  affairs  on  any  one  of  tlie  roads,  it  would  not  affect 
even  indirectly  the  results  here  shown  of  all  other  roads. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  all  I  meant  by  that  was  that  on 
these  Trans-Continental  lines,  take  the  Atchison,  To])eka  & 
Santa  Fe,  for  instance,  the  first  three  items  there  of  the  average 
length  of  the  seniority  of  the  oldest  engineer,  who  was  on  that 
particular  day  firing,  you  have  3.83. 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  the  oldest  engineer — yes,  the  oldest  engi- 
neer who  was  firing ;  yes. 

Mr.  Slieean :     3.83  years,  2.42  years,  2.56  years,  1 .02  years. 

Mr.  Cai^ter:    And  5.77. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  5.77;  yes.  Now,  each  of  those  averages 
is  given  ecpial  value  in  >our  final  average  with  the  8.08  years 
shown  on  tlie  Pierre,  Ra])id  City  c^'  Northwestern  Railway? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sliet'an:  And  each  of  those  averages  on  that  Trans- 
Continental  line  is  given  the  same  value  as — let  ns  take  the  next 
highest,  7.92  years,  shown  on  the  ]Vrineral  Range  Railroad.  Do 
you  ha]i])en  to  know  where  the  Minerial  Range  Railroad  is,  or 
how  long  that  is  and  how  many  men  operate  on  it? 

Mr.  Carter :     The  Mineral  Range,  that  is  under  Duluth — 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  Duluth,  South  Shore  &  Atlantic  Rail- 
way. 

Mr.  Carter:  From  the  fact  that  they  only  have  one  man 
reported,  T  would  consider  it  was  not  a  very  extensive  rail- 


685 

road,  even  though  I  did  not  have  knowledge  of  that  fact  other- 
wise. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  getting  your  final  average  here  of  3.44 
years,  you  totaled  the  averages  shown  in  that  last  column? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  divided  that  by  the  number  of  railroad 
systems  1 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir — not  the  number  of  railroad  systems, 
but  by  the  number  of  railroad  systems  reporting.  You  will 
notice  that  in  some  columns  a  circle  1  appears,  indicating  that 
there  was  no  report. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Whether  a  railroad  system  or  a  division, 
you  counted  in  that  average  the  Mineral  Range  Railroad,  for 
instance,  as  being  one  divisor,  just  the  same  as  the  Canadian 
Northern  Railway  being  a  divisor? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  did  because  the  railroads  did.  If  I  had  done 
otherwise  I  would  have  been  changing  the  record.  I  want  to 
explain  that  this  subdivision  of  railroads  here  is  not  my  work. 
When  these  questions  were  asked,  I  presume  of  the  highest 
operating  ofificial  of  the  Santa  Fe  System,  apparently  he  passed 
the  questions  along  to  the  managing  officers  of  these  subsidiary 
lines ;  and,  when  these  forms  came  back  to  us,  they  came  back 
segregated,  and  I  think  it  would  have  been  very  imptroper  on 
my  part  to  have  done  that  which  you  think  I  ought  to  have 
done. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  am  not  suggesting  what  you  ought  or  ought 
not  to  have  done.  I  am  simply  trying  to  arrive  at  how  these 
averages  were  obtained.  The  responses  were  made  by  the  rail- 
road companies  of  whom  you  made  the  request,  were  they  not? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  and,  if  the  responses  of  the  railroad  com- 
pany are  inaccurate,  then  my  derivative  tables  are  inaccurate. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Yes,  and,  if  the  responses  are  perfectly  accu- 
rate, you  treat,  in  the  average,  a  railroad  which  has  one  engi- 
neer and  one  division,  as  of  the  same  value  as  a  Trans-Conti- 
nental system? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  I  must  necessarily  do  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  railroads  showed  no  averages  in  their 
returns,  did  theyf 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  these  averages  have  all  been  reached 
bv  mvself. 


686 

About  the  Chicago  <Sc  North  Western  Kailroad,  1  imagine 
that  on  that  railroad  they  would  consider  that  they  were  almost 
a  Trans-Continental  line,  as  they  start  in  the  direction  of  the 
Pacific.  Anyhow,  they  are  quite  an  important  line,  and  you  will 
find  that  on  as  great  a  system  as  the  Chicago  &  North  Western 
Kailway,  that  reports  fifteen  different  seniority  districts,  the 
average  age,  as  an  engineer,  of  the  oldest  fireman  is  almost  six 
years.    To  be  exact,  it  is  5.71  years. 

M  r.  Slieean :  That  is  the  average  of  the  oldest  man  on  each 
seniority  district? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  and  indicates  that  every  engineer  on  that 
roa<l  who  has  been  i)romoted  within  that  average  period  of 
nearly  seven  years  is  also  back,  firing;  and  would  indicate 
further  that  the  firemen  who  have  been  displaced — well,  I  do 
not  know  what  they  are  doing.  Perhaps  they  are  contrilniting 
to  the  necessity  of  providing  soup  kitchens. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  information  is  also  shown,  is  it,  by  this 
exhibit — what  you  last  volunteered? 

Mr.  Carter:     That  firemen  are  laid  off!    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  firemen  are  now  contributing  to  soup 
kitchens. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  I  prefaced  that  statement  by  saying 
I  do  not  know  what  they  are  doing.  They  may  be  contri])uting 
to  the  necessity  of  soup  kitchens ;  and  from  what  I  have  lieard, 
they  are  in  a  most  distressing  state  of  affairs. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If,  in  fact,  the  firemen  here  shown  in  this 
exhibit,  or  the  engineers  who  were  promoted  an  average  of  3.44 
years  before  the  date  which  you  selected  to  ascertain  the  oldest 
engineer  firing  on  that  date — if,  in  fact,  the  earnings  which  you 
show  here  as  l)eing  the  earnings  of  those  men  as  firemen  are  only 
40  ])er  cent  of  what  those  men  actually  drew  from  those  rail- 
road companies,  would  you  still  say  that  this  exhibit  had  the 
proi)ativc  effect  that  you  have  given  it? 

Mr.  Carter :     T  would  say  I  would  be  exceedingly  astonished. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  And  there  is  nothing  about  this  exhibit,  or  the 
separation  of  their  earnings  as  engineers  from  their  earnings 
as  firemen  that  would  make  impossible  the  fact  that  they  did 
draw  the  earnings  at  that  time! 

Mr.  Carter:  I  can  hardly  conceive  of  any  railroad  using 
firemen,  hired  since  January   1,  1912,  within  the  next  twenty- 


687 

six  months — using  those  firemen  as  engineers;  and,  therefore, 
I  would  never  give  a  thought  to  the  fact  that  possibly  one  of 
those  firemen  who  had  been  hired  since  January  1,  1912,  might 
have  earned  something  as  an  engineei-. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  but  do  iiol  your  laMes  show  the  earn- 
ings of  engineers  f 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  of  the  men  employed  since  January  1, 
1912,  who  are  the  only  firemen  covered  in  the  request  or  report. 
Form  IG  only  referred  to  firemen  who  had  been  em])loyed  since 
January  1,  1912;  and  I  surmised  that  when  those  fellows  were 
out  of  work,  so  far  as  firing  work  was  concerned,  unless  they 
secured  temporary  employment  elsewhere,  they  earned  nothing. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Eight  in  that  connection,  where  are  firemen 
recruited  from!  Is  it  at  all  unusual  for  people  who  have  served 
as  engine  wipers,  or  around  the  roundhouses,  to  become  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think,  on  the  Canadian  Pacific  Eailway,  that 
practice  is  adhered  to  quite  strictly;  and  many,  many  years  ago 
that  was  the  practice  generally;  but,  I  think  that  now,  on  account 
of  the  rigid  examinations  and  exactions  or  requirements  of  fire- 
men entering  the  service,  they  can  no  longer  take  the  same 
material  that  they  take  for  wipers. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  was  not  asking  about  schedule  })rovisions, 
but  asking  you  from  what  source  firemen  were  generally  re- 
cruited, if  vou  knew? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  firemen  are  generally  recruited  from 
any  source,  whether  the)''  are  farmers'  sons,  or  sons  of  employes, 
or  sons  of  average  citizens,  who  are  able  to  pass  the  i)hysical 
and  mental  examination  that  is  required  of  them.  They  are  far 
above  the  class  of  men  who  were  accepted  without  question  not 
more  than  twenty  years  ago,  or  fifteen  years  ago. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then,  there  is  nothing  inconsistent  in  the  fact, 
as  shown,  for  instance,  at  page  11  on  Form  18  of  the  C.  B.  &  Q. 
that  Mr.  G.  C.  Crawford,  who  is  showm  in  the  month  of  February 
as  earning  $2.16  as  a  fireman,  may  have  earned  other  money  in 
the  shops  during  that  month? 

Mr.  Carter:     You  mean  as  an  engineer? 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  a  fireman;  wages  earned  by  firemen, 
page  10. 

Mr.  Carter:  Oh,  I  see.  I  thought  you  meant  the  other 
table,    (to  «head  again.    I  did  not  get  you. 


688 

Mr.  Sbeeau:    Please  read  the  question. 

(The  steno£:rapher  read  the  question  as  follows: 

"Then,  there  is  nothing  inconsistent  in  the  fact,  as  shown, 
for  instance,  at  page  11,  on  Form  18  of  the  C.  B.  &  Q.,  that  Mr. 
G.  C.  Crawford,  who  is  shown  in  the  month  of  February  as  earn- 
ing $2.16  as  a  fireman,  may  have  earned  other  money  in  the  shops 
during  that  mouth?") 

Mr.  Carter:  If  he  were  promoted  from  the  shops,  I  would 
sav  that  is  true. 

Mr.  Sheoan :  Now,  that  $2.16  that  you  start  out  with  there 
evidently  was  a  single  day's  work  as  fireman,  was  it  not — a  sin- 
gle trip  as  fireman? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  would  presume  that  he  made  one  trip,  if  he 
was  promoted  to  be  a  fireman  during  that  month.  That  is,  I  am 
going  on  the  assumption  tliat  you  say  he  was  promoted  from  the 
shops. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Assuming  that  he  was  not  promoted  from  the 
shops,  and  that  he  was  hired  on  the  27th  or  the  28th  day  of  the 
month,  the  $2.16  shows  that  this  man  made  one  trip  during  the 
month  of  Februarv,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that  one  trip  is  carried  in  your  averages 
as  though  that  man  had  been  available  for  duty  during  the  entire 
month  of  February. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  average  is  also  carried  out  without 
any  knowledge  or  infonnation  as  to  whether  that  $2.16  was  the 
only  money,  earned  by  that  man,  from  that  railroad  company, 
during  that  month  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  intent  of  Form  18  and  the  questions 
thereon  was  to  ascertain  how  much  they  earned  as  firemen,  with 
the  knowledge  of  the  fact  that,  on  most  roads,  if  a  fireman  should 
accept  employment  anywhere  else,  while  he  had  his  name  on  the 
payroll,  they  would  immediatelv  take  his  name  off  of  the  pay- 
roll. 

Now,  if,  as  you  seem  to  indicate,  on  the  C.  B.  &  Q.  Railroad 
firemen  are  permitted  to  be  on  the  firemen's  list  and  earn  the 
money  shown  on  Form  18,  and  work  as  grocers'  clerks  on  the 


689 

outside,  that  is  almost  as  niuisnal  as  the  conditions  on  the  Illinois 
Central. 

Mr.  Sheeau:  You  understood,  that  I  asked  you,  simply, 
about  money  that  he  earned  from  the  same  railroad  eomi^any, 
did  you  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     From  the  same  railroad  company  f 

Mr.  Sheean :  Fi-om  the  same  railroad  comi)any.  I  have 
not  asked  anything  about  em])loyment  as  a  grocer's  clerk. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  thought  you  said  suppose  he  was  not  pro- 
moted from  the  shops.  Tlien  1  would  think  he  was  not  working 
for  the  same  railroad  com]iany. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  he  were  not  i)ronioted  from  the  shop,  and 
was  hired  on  the  271h  day  of  that  month,  you  carry  into  your 
averages  the  $2.16,  as  though  he  were  available  for  duty  by  the 
Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy  throughout  that  entire  month, 
and  that  his  total  earnings  were  $2,161 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes ;  and,  if  you  will  go  down  to  January, 
191-1,  you  will  see  that  he  earned  $2.61,  and  I  did  the  same  thing 
there. 

Mr.  Sheean:  January,  ]9]1:.  You  have  no  knowledge,  I 
take  it,  as  to  whether  or  not,  in  either  of  those  months,  he  was 
in  fact  available  for  duty,  or  whether  he  was  off  on  leave? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  have  no  knowledge  of  the  facts  only  as 
shown  on  the  reports. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  is  not  an  unusual  provision  or  practice, 
both  vnth.  engineers  and  firemen,  to  be  granted  leave  of  absence 
for  a  definite  period,  at  their  request,  and  still  retain  their 
seniority,  is  it? 

Mr.  Carter:  A  very  unusual  practice  for  a  man  to  earn 
only  for  one  trip,  and  lay  oft'  the  rest  of  the  month. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Just  read  my  cpiestion. 

(The  stenographer  read  the  question  as  follows: 

"It  is  not  an  unusual  j>rovision  or  practice,  both  with  engi- 
neers and  firemen,  to  be  granted  leave  of  absence  for  a  definite 
period,  at  their  request,  and  still  retain  their  seniority,  is  it?") 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes;  but  not  as  extensive  as  is  shown  here. 
Mr.  Sheean:     Do  you  mean  it  is  unusual? 
Mr.  Carter:     Pardon  me.     If  your  question  has  reference 
to  what  we  are  now  talking  about,  a  man  earning  $2.64,  I  will 


690 

say  it  is  extreuiely  unusual;    l»ut  it'  you  are  referring  to  cases 
where  ji  man  lays  off  ten  days  or  sometliing  of  tluit  kind,  it  is 
^not  unusual. 

Mr.  Slieean  :      i  will  take  tiie  rase  o\'  layinu-  oft'  six  uionths. 

Ml-.  Carter:     \'ery  unusual. 

Mr.  Slieean:  During  slack  business.  Is  it  not  the  ])rac- 
tice  on  many  railroads  that,  at  the  request  of  the  men,  if  they 
desire  to  lay  otT,  even  for  a  i)eriod  of  six  months,  they  may  do 
so  if  they  want  to  and  retain  their  seniority,  and  come  back  to 
work  again  upon  that  railroad? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  imagine  that  is  permissible  on  any  railroad, 
but  very  unusual. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Charter,  in  the  number  of  tiremen  hired, 
as  shown  on  Table  S  at  pages  36  and  o7,  the  last  column,  num- 
ber of  firemen  hired  since  January  1,  1912,  if  tiremen  were  hired 
under  the  form  as  you  ask  to  have  it  sulimitted  to  the  railroad 
comjiany,  if  a  man  were  used  in  an  emergency  or  hired  as  a 
fireman,  his  name  would  be  counted  in  this  total? 

Mr,  Carter :  If  any  man  was  hired  as  a  fireman,  he  would 
be  included  in  this.  I  say  so.  1  think  so.  I  think  that  was  what 
the  railroads  did  in  Form  18. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  if,  in  an  emergency,  no  extra  man  was 
available,  and,  for  a  single  trip,  some  shop  man  fired,  and  ap- 
peared upon  the  firemen's  payroll,  he  would  also  be  counted? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  do  not  think  that  would  be  practicable  under 
the  seniority  rules  on,  any  railroad,  without  violating  those 
rules. 

Mr.  Slieean :  1  iiieaii  in  the  information  which  you  re- 
quested here. 

Mr.  Carter :  With  my  knowledge  of  the  [practices,  I  would 
say  no,  that  they  would  not  take  a  man  out  of  the  shop  and  use 
him  as  a  fireman  one  tri}).  Tliey  might  do  it  tem])orarily.  But, 
he  would  be  a  fireman  from  that  tri]). 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  what  I  mean,  that  under  the  informa- 
tion you  requested,  if  any  of  the  railroads  did  find  themselves, 
where,  during  this  period  of  time,  they  had  to  use  men  in  an 
emergency  to  make  a  single  trip,  it  would  go  into  this  grand 
total? 

Mr.  Carter:     If  they  have,  yes. 
'       Mr.  Sheean:     And  if  a  man  was  hired  at  any  time  during 


691 

these  twenty-live  oi-  Iweiity-six  iiioiitli  jxTJods,  and  was 
dropped — 

Mr.  Carter:     Disehari^ed. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Well,  (liscliars»ed,  or,  as  yon  say,  looked  for 
other  emphn'uient,  tlioiii>lit  lie  would  like  soiii('tliiii,i>:  else  better, 
and  came  back  ivj;i\u\  and  tried  it  auaiii,  as  many  times  as  he 
tried  it  and  was  hired,  he  would. be  counted  that  many  times? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  was  not  our  intention,  if  a  man's  name 
a]»|)eared  twice,  we  have  counted  him  once. 

Mr.  Sheean  :     Did  you  i^o  throu,i>ii,  to  ascertain  the  names? 

Mr.  Carter :  It  might  be  that  a  man  appeared  on  the  Chi- 
cago &  North  Western  once,  and  then  on  the  Chicago  Great 
Western,  and  I  will  confess  I  did  not  cheek  that — 

Mr.  Sheean:     No. 

Mr.  Carter:  But,  if  any  report  from  any  road  siiowed 
the  same  name  twice,  our  purpose  was  to  count  it  only  once. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  there  was  no  effort  to  ascertain  whether 
or  not  the  same  name  appeared  elsewhere !  Even  if  you  got  the 
same  name,  it  would  not  necessarily  mean  that  it  was  the  same 
individual. 

Mr.  Carter :  The  instructions  to  those  who  were  preparing 
the  original  information  was  that,  whenever  the  same  man's 
name  appears  twice,  they  were  to  count  him  as  once,  and  take 
the  collective  earnings  of  the  man  twice ;  that  is,  we  consolidated 
his  name  and  his  earnings  and  counted  him  as  one  man ;  but  I 
think  it  is  very  seldom  that  that  appears. 

Mr.  Sheean :  All  I  wanted  on  that  was  whether  you  had 
checked  up  names  to  ascertain  whether  there  were  duplications. 

Mr.  Carter :  Those  were  the  instructions  given,  and  I  hon- 
estly believe  that  wherever  they  discovered  two  names  reported 
on  the  same  sheet,  or  from  the  same  railroad  or  subdivision 
thereof,  or  seniority  district,  as  they  came  to  us,  wherever  there 
were  two  names  that  appeared  to  be  the  same  person,  the  in- 
structions were  to  treat  the  two  names  as  one  and  to  treat  the 
earnings  of  both  as  one.  But  that  was  veiy  seldom  the  case, 
that  such  a  thing  was  found. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  arriving  at  the  averages,  Mr.  Carter,  aver- 
age earnings,  I  mean,  which  you  show  in  some  of  the  tables  here 
— I  do  not  care  to  distinguish  one  from  the  other,  but  in  arriving 
at  the  average  earnings  per  month,  each  month  in  which  any 


692 

amount  was  earned,  was  counted  without  regard  to  the  number 
of  days  that  the  employe  was  available,  whether  he  was  off  part 
of  the  month  on  sick  leave,  leave  of  absence  or  for  any  other 
cause,  whether  he  began  at  an  intermediate  part  of  the  montli  or 
quit  during  the  month,  and  the  averages  were  arrived  at  with- 
out giving  consideration  to  any  of  these  elements ;' 

Mr.  Carter:  I  certainly  gave  consideration  to  all  of  those 
elements,  and  if  we  had  been  permitted  to  have  had  two  copies 
of  these  reports,  so  that  we  could  have  introduced  them  as 
exhi])its,  it  was  our  purpose  to  dwell  at  length  upon  those  ex- 
liibits,  bringing  out  much  of  the  information  you  are  asking 
for.  I'nfortunately  for  the  present  situation,  we  only  had  one 
copy  furnished  by  the  railroads.  Under  the  law,  we  can  intro- 
duce notliing  as  an  exhibit  unless  we  have  two  copies ;  therefore, 
many  of  the  questions  you  asked  me  could  be  very  easily  an- 
swered by  simply  turning  from  page  to  page  of  these  twenty-one 
volumes.  I  want  to  say  to  you,  that  I  paid  no  attention  to  the 
time  of  the  month  the  man  began  or  the  time  of  the  month  he 
ceased  to  work  for  the  company,  but  I  presumed  that  where  it 
was  shown  that  there  was  continuous  earnings  during  the  months 
intervening  between  his  entering  the  service  and  leaving  the 
ser\dce,  that  he  was  employed  in  that  service.  I  did  not  consider 
that  he  might  have  left  the  service  and  entered  the  service 
every  month.  I  considered  his  length  of  service  where  his  wages 
appeared,  and  he  remained  in  the  service  down  the  column  until 
there  was  no  entry  of  wages  for  him.  Those  months  I  used  in 
computing  averages ;  but  I  want  to  say  one  thing  that  I  did  not 
do,  which  will  offset  everything  that  has  been  brought  out  here 
to  rob  this  exhibit  of  our  estimate  of  it.  If  a  man  appeared  as 
working  in  January,  February,  March,  April,  May  and  June, 
did  not  work  in  July  and  August,  and  worked  in  September, 
October,  November  and  December,  we  know,  or  think  we  know, 
that  that  man  practically  had  nothing  to  do  when  he  was  cut  off 
the  list.  Instead  of  dividing  the  total  earnings  of  that  column 
by  twelve,  wiiich  would  have  been  fair  to  him,  to  avoid  any 
semblance  of  exaggeration,  we  only  added  the  number  of  months 
tliat  he  actually  worked.  If  we  had  in  estimating  his  earnings 
added  the  months  that  he  did  not  earn  anything,  it  would  have 
bpen  nmch  lower  than  shown  here. 

^^r.  Sheean:     In  arriving  at  your  divisor,  you  carried  it 


■  I  II 


693 

do\^ii  to  the  point,  as  shown  on  the  Illinois  Central  Exhibit, 
where  you  found  one  dollar  earned  in  a  month,  and  averaged  it 
down  to  that  extent. 

Mr.  Carter :  Wherever  it  appeared  that  a  man  worked  as 
an  engineer,  promoted  engineer,  or  as  a  fireman,  we  added 
that  in. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  where  you  had  no  earnings  whatever  in 
a  month,  and  no  knowledge  or  information  as  to  whether  the 
man  was  on  that  road  or  not,  whether  he  was  available  or  not, 
you  did  not  include  the  months  where  there  was  no  amount  of 
money  in  striking  your  average  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  We  understood  that  he  was  available,  and  in 
my  judgment  he  was,  but  there  was  no  work  for  him.  In  order 
not  to  exaggerate  the  conclusions  reached  in  here,  we  did  not 
use  that  in  the  number  of  months  in  which  we  divided  the 
earnings. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  say  your  information  was  that  he  was 
available.  What  was  that  information  on  which  you  base  that 
statement? 

Mr.  Carter :  General  knowledge  of  the  conditions,  the  im- 
mense correspondence  that  reaches  our  office  from  these  very 
men  who  are  asking  me  if  I  know  where  they  can  get  a  job. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  now%  Mr.  Carter,  let  us  take  one  of  the 
men  here  as  shown  in  this  exhibit  with  whom  you  have  had  that 
correspondence  during  any  part  of  that  time,  and  just  give  us 
that  one  individual. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  can  not  without  going  to  Peoria  to  get  the 
records.  I  will  say  we  have  abundance  of  evidence,  and,  if  the 
Board  please,  I  would  suggest  that  we  take  up  the  time  of  the 
Board  in  putting  on  as  many  witnesses  as  may  be  necessary,  and 
the  Board  will  say  when  they  are  tired,  showing  the  distress  of 
these  men,  whose  time  I  did  not  get. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  in  making  the  average,  what  you 
did,  was  to  take  any  man,  wherever  any  man  was  shown  in  a 
month,  count  that  month  as  a  month  and  that  man  as  available 
for  the  entire  month. 

Mr.  Carter:  It  is  my  opinion,  professionally,  if  you  like, 
that  when  a  man  is  cut  off  the  list  on  account  of  depression  in 
business,  a  fireman,  that  he  is  not  only  available,  but  he  is  beg- 
ging for  the  permission  to  work. 


694 

Mr.  Slifcaii:      l^'iid  the  (|iiesti()ii. 
(Question  lead,  as  above  I'cconlcd.) 

My.  < 'alter:  \'('S,  sir.  1  uiulcrstand  tlicic  arc  cxccplioiis. 
A  Tiiaii  iiiiulit  (Vw  and  lie  would  hardly  be  availablt*  after  tliat. 

Mr.  Slict'aii:  Voii  have  no  knowledge  or  information  as  to 
whether  men  hiid  off  of  their  own  accord  dniinu-  any  ])art  of  tlie 
time .' 

Mr.  Carter:  Where  men,  particularly  liremen,  are  r<'(iuired 
to  lire  lieaA'y  freiylits,  they  lind  it  absolutely  necessary  to  lay  off 
re])eatedly,  on  the  larger  engines.  I  think  you  Avill  tind  that  it 
would  be  iin|:)ossi])le  foi-  a  lirenian  on  one  of  these  large  freight 
engines,  with  the  tonnage  that  belongs  w^ith  the  engine,  to  follow 
that  engine  as  many  miles  as  he  w^ould  on  one  of  the  smaller 
engines,  therefore,  that  man  must  lay  oft'  and  does  lay  ofl",  to 
recu|)erate,  in  order  to  be  able  to  fire  the  engine. 

^Ir.  Slieean:  And  that,  you  think,  obtains  through  these 
tables  ai)plicable  to  these  extra  lists. 

Mr.  Carter:  1  think  you  will  find  that  most  of  the  firemen 
that  lay  off  do  lay  off  for  rest,  and  that  should  apiily  to  engineers, 
too. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  that  api)liesto  these  tables,  also,  does  it; 
the  tables  of  this  particular  exhibit,  that,  in  the  months  where 
you  showed  the  earnings,  there  were  lay-ofiPs  of  the  men  at  their 
request  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     No  question  of  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  what  those  lay-oft's  amounted  to  or  how 
many  days  of  a  i)articular  month  they  were  available,  you  have 
no  knowledge  or  infonnation? 

^Ir.  Carter:     Xo,  sir;  except  a  general  knowledge. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  in  arriving  at  the  monthly  earnings, 
you  took  two  mouths  of  J''el)ruary,  a  month  of  June  and  a  month 
of  October,  did  you  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  think  you  said  that  the  month  of  June  was 
ordinarily  tlie  liirlit  month  in  operation  and  October  the  high 
one. 

Ml".  Carter:  Ordinarily,  according  to  my  judgment,  before 
the  crop  begins  to  move,  the  farm  products,  there  is  a  low-  tide 
of  the  movement  of  trains;  w'hile,  in  October,  when  wheat,  corn 
and  cotton  and  other  agi'icultural  products  are  moving,  there  is 


695 

a  general  increase  in  business.  1  would  say  that,  in  my  judg- 
ment, taking  the  agricultuiai  states  in  consideration,  that  Octo- 
ber would  be  one  of  the  months  where  there  was  more  work  for 
men  than  any  other  month.  Ordinarily,  .June  ought  to  be,  unless 
there  is  something  unusual  that  occurs,  the  low  month.  Febru- 
ary, how^ever,  is  shown  in  this  table  as  also  being  a  low  month. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Both  a  low  month  and  a  short  month  in  days. 

Mr.  Carter:  Perhaps  that  has  something  to  do  with  the 
amount  of  business;  a  28-day  month  would  be  considerably  less 
than  a  31 -day  month. 

Mr.  iSheean:  There  are  again,  in  and  about  the  different 
periods  of  the  year,  certain  activities  on  certain  roads,  at  a  ]iart 
of  the  yeai-,  that  there  are  not  on  others. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  in  this  Form  No.  17,  at  page  8,  in  which 
the  return  of  the  Canadian  Northern  Railway  is  set  forth,  it  is  a 
usual  condition  upon  Canadian  roads  that,  in  October,  November 
and  December,  the  movement  of  wheat  makes  that  a  verv  busv 
season  for  those  roads,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  I  think  not.  I  mean  to  say  I  think  the 
navigation  has  closed  on  the  lakes,  so  as  not  to  include  December 
traffic.    Maybe  I  am  mistaken. 

Mr.  Sheean:  When  does  the  heavy  wheat  movement  ordi- 
narily begin  up  there? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  not  personally  acquainted.  I  imagine 
the  wheat  is  heaviest,  the  heavy  movement  of  wheat  to  lake  ports 
ceases  with  the  closing  of  navigation,  and  then  it  is  diverted  by 
rail,  perhaps,  to  sea  ports  like  Montreal.  I  won't  state  that,  but 
that  is  a  guess, 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  J  wanted  is  the  fact  that  there  are  sea- 
sonal conditions  which  affect  the  volume  of  traffic  on  certain 
roads. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  make  necessary  the  em])loyment  of 
larger  numbers  of  crews  during  a  short  period  of  the  year, 
than  tind  employment  during  the  remainder  of  the  year? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And.  during  that  i)eriod  of  time,  if  the  road 
has  seniority  rules,  whereby  they  do  not  hire  engineers  from  the 
outside  but  promote  firemen,  there  will  be  ])romoted  and  de- 


696 

tailed  as  engineers,  during  the  months  of  heavy  business,  cer- 
tain engineers  for  wliom  there  is  no  employment  on  tliat  road 
except  during  those  months  of  heavy  traffic. 

Mr.  Carter :     That  is  true. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  on  those  roads,  the  giving  to  the  engi- 
neers temi)orarily  ])romoted  to  take  care  of  this  heavy  seasonal 
traffic,  the  riglit  to  droj)  l)ack  and  to  retain  their  rights  as  fire- 
men during  the  lighter  seasons,  is  the  growtli  and  development 
of  the  requests  of  the  men,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :  So  far  as  the  promoted  engineer  is  concerned, 
there  is  no  question  but  what  that  is  the  policy  desired  by  the 
men. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  in  that  situation,  the  men  who,  during 
the  three  months  of  activity,  would  operate  as  engineers,  would, 
during  the  remainder  of  the  year,  drop  back  and  hold  their  posi- 
tions as  firemen? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  exi)ansion,  during  certain  seasons  of 
the  5'ear,  is  general  to  many  roads,  is  it  not?  T  don't  mean  the 
same  period  of  time,  but  there  are  periods  of  greater  activity 
on  almost  all  of  the  roads  in  the  western  territorv  than  at  other 
seasons  of  the  year. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  fluctuation  in  the 
railroad  l)usiness  is  usual,  and,  for  the  purpose  of  bringing  out 
the  fluctuations  in  the  railroad  business,  and  the  effect  on  the 
men,  this  exhibit  was  compiled.  We  had  knowledge  that  there 
were  such  fluctuations  when  we  got  up  this  exhibit. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  fluctuation  and  the  dropping  back 
through  eight  or  nine  months  of  the  year  to  the  ])ositiou  of 
fireman,  is  something  that  the  men  have  insisted  upon,  and  has 
been  the  result  of  dealings  between  the  roads  severally  and  their 
respective  men,  has  it  not,  as  to  just  how  this  expansion,  during 
certain  seasons,  should  be  taken  care  of? 

Mr.  Carter:  T  think  the  way  you  started  your  question 
out  would  indicate  that  these  fluctuations  were  their  desire? 

Mr.  Sheean:    No. 

Mr.  Carter :    You  mean  the  demotion  of  the  men  ? 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  manner  of  handling  their  business  dur- 
ing  the  few  months  of  unusual  expansion,  which  the  railroads 
may  anticipate ;  the  manner  of  taking  care  of  that  traffic  during 


697 

that  period,  is  the  result  of  iiei>'otiatioiis  betwe<'n  the  men  and 
the  railroads  severally. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  will  you  turn  to  i)a,^:e  IG  of  your 
exhibit,  please.  I  am  not  sure  that  1  understand  just  how  you 
arrived  at  the  figures  given  opposite  the  lines,  ''Number  of 
engineers  (promoted),"  "Number  of  engineers  (hired)," 
"Number  of  liremen,"  as  extended  in  these  several  months. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think,  if  I  remember  aright,  they  are  simply 
the  footings  of  Tables  3,  4  and  5. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Well,  how  did  you  get  at  tiie  number  of  engi- 
neers promoted  February,  1913? 

Mr.  Carter :  Do  you  mean  the  men  wlio  were  ])r()moted  in 
February,  1914? 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  am  not  sure  I  understand. 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  that  is  not  the  intent.  This  shows  the 
number  of  men  who  have  been  promoted  since  January  1,  1912, 
who  worked  in  the  month  of  February,  1913 ;  and  the  reason  that 
I  only  reported  them  is  because  those  were  the  only  men  shown 
in  Forms  15,  16,  17  and  18. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  I  think  that  I  understand. 
That  was  what  I  w^as  not  clear  about.  Should  not  that  line 
then — I  am  not  criticising  the  abbreviation  of  it — when  you 
extend  it,  when  you  extended  that  line,  following  up  page  17, 
number  of  engineers  promoted,  it  means,  does  it  not,  number 
of  engineers  promoted  since  January  1,  1912,  who.  in  the  month 
of  February,  1913,  were  working  as  engineers? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes;  and  if  you  will  turn  back  to  page  5,  I 
think  that  idea  is  communicated.  This  being  a  derivative  table, 
or  a  summary  of  tables,  I  did  not  repeat  it  there.  You  will 
notice  I  very  carefully  i)laced  the  word  "promoted"  in  paren- 
theses. If  I  had  intended  to  convey  the  idea  that  they  were  pro- 
moted that  month,  I  would  have  said  that  they  were  promoted, 
without  the  i^arentheses. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  if  I  understand  correctly,  in  the 
month  of  February,  1913,  there  were  working  as  engineers  2,154 
men  who  had  been  promoted  since  January,  1912? 

Mr.  Carter:  January  1,  1912.  The  same  applies  to  the 
number  of  hired  engineers  and  the  number  of  firemen.  You  will 
understand  that  all  that  appears  in  this  exhibit  is  based  upon 


698 

forms  furnished  by  the  raihoads,  and  there  is  nothing  in  the 
forms  furnished  l)y  the  railroads  that  has  to  do  with  any  em- 
ploye exempt  those  i)romoted  or  hired  since  January  1,  1912. 
Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all,  Mr.  Carter. 

RKDIRFAT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  l*hillii>s:  Mr.  Carter,  you  were  asked  if  arrangements 
for  demotion  in  ease  of  fluctuation  of  business  were  not  made  to 
suit  the  wishes  of  tlie  men.  I  believe  you  answered,  in  substance, 
that  tlijit  was  true.  Admitting  that  such  is  the  case,  does  not  the 
fact  still  remain  that  there  are  great  fluctuations? 

Mr.  Carter:  There  are  great  fluctuations,  and  it  was  for 
the  pnrpose  of  communicating  the  intensity  of  these  fluctuations, 
that  this  book  was  pre])ared,  and  I  might  say  that  the  original 
questions  asked  of  the  railroads,  answers  to  which  were  fur- 
nished on  forms  completed  by  the  railroads,  were  for  the  pur- 
pose of  offsetting  an  argument,  made  in  all  previous  negotiations 
of  this  character,  that  the  employment  of  railroad  employes  was 
permanent,  and  therefore  could  not  be  compared  with  the  wages 
of  employes  in  other  industries  where  it  was  not  permanent. 
I  had  heard  that  so  many  times,  used  in  several  arbitrations,  that 
I  concluded  to  find  out  whether  it  was  permanent  or  not,  and 
this  is  the  result. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  do  not  understand,  then,  Mr.  Carter, 
from  your  rei>orts,  that  a  fireman  entering  the  service  of  a  rail- 
road company  as  a  fireman,  or  an  engineer  entering  the  service 
of  a  railroad  company  as  a  hired  engineer,  becomes  a  full  paid 
worker  immediately  upon  accepting  or  securing  employment. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  the  records  will  show  that  a  man 
with  a  family  to  support,  taking  employment  either  as  a  fire- 
man or  as  a  hired  engineer,  ordinarily  is  to  be  pitied,  on  account 
of  these  fluctuations  in  traffic. 

Mr.  Stone.  Mr.  Carter,  I  wish  you  would  take  yesterday's 
proceedings  and  turn  to  page  617.  A  question  that  Mr.  Nagel 
asked  you;  down  about  the  middle  of  the  page  you  will  find  a 
question  regarding  the  uncertainty  or  irregularity  of  employ- 
ment of  engineers  and  firemen,  and  whether  or  not  they  could 
l)e  fairly  compared  as  to  the  uncertainty  which  obtains  with 
other  industrial  wage  earners. 

Mr.  Carter:     Will  you  quote  the  question? 


699 

Mr.  Stone:     Mr.  Nagel  asked  tlie  folUnving  question: 

**Do  you  think  that  the  uncertainty  or  irregularity  of  em- 
ployment, in  the  case  of  engineers  and  firemen,  can  be  fairly 
compared  to  the  uncertainty  which  o])tains  in  the  case  of  indus- 
trial wage  earners!" 

In  any  of  the  industrial  trades,  outside  of  the  railroads,  do 
you  know  of  any  rigid  discipline  being  enforced  for  a  slight 
infraction  of  the  rules? 

Mr.  Carter:  Xo.  I  have  often  had  that  in  mind  and  dis- 
cussed it  with  employes  in  other  industries,  and  I  think  you  mil 
find — I  have  discussed  it  particularly  with  officers  of  other  indus- 
tries, and  to  them  it  seems  incredible  that  a  man  might  serve 
ten,  fifteen  or  twenty  years  for  one  employer  and  then,  because 
of  a  mistake,  he  is  practically  deprived  of  ever  earning  any  more 
money  at  his  chosen  trade.  I  have  discussed  that  with  the 
president  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Carpenters,  and  he  tells  me 
that  while  a  carpenter  who,  through  a  mistake  or  incompetency, 
perhaps,  destroys  material,  that  it  is  not  unusual  for  him  to  be 
discharged,  if  his  offenses  are  of  grave  character  or  repeated; 
but  that  is  not  held  against  the  man  if  he  should  go  anywhere 
else  for  employment.  It  is  true  that,  if  he  had  a  reputation  of 
being  a  poor  carpenter,  he  would  have  a  hard  time  keeping  a 
job ;  but  the  fact  that  he  had  made  a  mistake  or  was  dismissed 
by  one  carpenter  would  not  work  against  him  at  all  in  getting  a 
job  with  another  employer  as  a  carpenter. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  other  words,  if  a  man  was  discliaigcd  in 
one  of  the  industrial  trades,  when  he  went  over  to  get  a  job  on  a 
building  in  the  next  block  he  Avould  not  have  to  give  a  reference 
from  his  former  employer,  would  he  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  I  don't  know  whether  that  is  true  or 
not;  but,  I  do  know,  from  my  observation,  that  the  same  car]»en- 
ters  usually  do  all  the  carpenter  work  in  the  same  town,  year 
after  year.  Sometimes,  if  business  gets  very  bad,  they  go  to 
other  towns;  but  you  do  not  find  them  digging  ditches  or  doing 
something  else  because  one  employing  carpenter  has  dismissed 
them  for  making  a  mistake. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  he  could  not  get  a  job  at  his  trade  else- 
where? 


700 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  know  of  any  of  the  industrial  trades 
wiiere,  if  a  man  takes  a  leave  of  absence  for  thirty  days  or  dur- 
ing depression  of  business  he  is  out  of  Avork  for  thirty  days,  he 
will  have  to  take  a  physical  examination  when  he  gets  work 
before  he  can  begin  his  duties! 

Mr.  Carter:  Perhaps  I  may  be  mistaken,  but  1  do  not  call 
to  mind  that  these  physical  examinations  are  required  when  they 
first  enter  the  service,  and,  I  am  quite  sure  if  they  took  one  at 
first,  they  would  not  be  required  to  undergo  another  examination. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  know  of  any  of  these  industrial  trades 
where  there  is  an  age  limit  which  prevents  a  man  securing  other 
similar  employment  in  case  he  loses  his  position? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  quite  sure,  in  the  average  industry,  there 
is  a  disi)osition  to  ditch  the  old  men,  but,  it  is  not  so  pronounced 
as  it  is  in  the  railroad  industry,  for  this  reason.  I  understand 
that  the  railroads  have  adopted  a  rule  among  themselves  that 
men  of  over  a  certain  age  will  not  be  employed.  AVhile  I  am 
quite  sure  there  is  no  such  rule  in  other  industries,  I  understand 
that  there  is  a  necessity,  according  to  their  contention,  for  this 
rule  by  the  railroads  in  order  to  j^rotect  their  so-called  pension 
fund. 

Ml-.  Stone:  You  say  you  understand.  Don't  you  know  it  to 
be  a  fact  that  thev  have  these  regulations  regarding  the  age 
limit? 

]\Ir.  Carti-r:  1  understand  so.  I  never  saw  them,  but  I  have 
heard  it  so  often  that  I  know  it  is  true.  I  think,  as  I  have  stated 
here,  that  the  employment  and  earnings  of  railroad  locomotive 
engineers  and  firemen  is  more  precarious  than  that  of  ;uiy  other 
industry  of  which  I  have  knowledge. 

The  Chairman:  Is  there  an  age  limit  for  tho  retirement  of 
engineers  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  I  am  (juite  sure  there  is  not,  and  I  am 
quite  sure  it  is  the  seniority  rule  that  prevents  it. 

The  Chairman:  At  Avhat  age  do  they  usually  retire  from 
emi)loyment  ? 

Mr.  Park:     ()5,  on  the  Illinois  Central. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact,  Mr.  Cartel",  tliat  thry  nr*'  re- 
quired to  retire  at  that  age  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  have  heard  so. 


■■  *9  ..^J 


701 

Mr.  Byram:    That  is  where  they  have  a  pension  system. 

Mr.  Park :  For  the  information  of  the  Board,  on  the  Illinois 
Central,  on  the  pension  system,  an  engineer  may  retire  between 
65  and  70.  He  may  be  retired  between  65  and  70.  It  is  optional 
with  him  or  with  the  company. 

Mr.  Carter:     I  so  understand. 

Mr.  Park:     But,  it  is  obligatory  at  70. 

The  Chairman:    Any  provision  made  for  him  after  that? 

Mr.  Park:  He  will  get  a  jDercentage  of  the  average  salary 
for  the  last  ten  years  based  on  the  number  of  years  he  has  been 
employed  in  the  service  in  any  capacity,  wiper,  fireman,  engineer, 
or  whatever  it  may  have  been.  If  forty  years,  it  would  be  forty 
per  cent  of  his  average  for  the  last  ten  years. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  might  say  that  that  is  one  reason  why  a  man 
is  anxious,  a  senior  man  is  anxious  to  pile  up  his  big  earnings  the 
last  few  years,  because,  on  those  roads  that  do  have  a  pension, 
the  pension  is  based  on  his  average  yearly  earnings  of  the  last 
ten  years;  therefore,  he  is  anxious  to  make  as  many  trips  and 
lay  oil'  as  little  as  possible,  is  that  not  correct? 

Mr.  Park:  That  is  true.  I  had  an  engineer  sa}^  to  me  the 
other  day:  "I  am  not  taking  my  usual  vacation.  I  am  in  the 
last  ten-year  period  of  my  i^ension,  and  I  am  going  to  work  every 
day  that  I  can." 

Mr.  Stone:  It  might  also  be  interesting,  along  that  line,  to 
have  a  statement  from  the  other  side  with  regard  to  the  number 
of  roads  who  do  pay  i^ensions,  and  you  will  find  them  very  few, 
and,  also,  have  a  statement  in  regard  to  the  number  of  roads  that 
liave  a  so-called  voluntary  relief  association — that  is,  voluntary 
in  name  only,  you  had  better  belong  if  you  want  to  get  along — 
and,  also,  the  roads  that  have  the  so-called  hospital  fund  that 
you  must  carry  if  you  want  to  work.  I  think  that  information 
would  be  a  splendid  thing  for  the  Board  to  have.  It  would  show 
to  tlie  Board  that  a  man  is  not  allowed  to  get  all  the  money  he 
really  earns.  They  take  out  part  of  it,  the  first  thing,  for  their 
share.  A  member  of  3'Our  Board,  Mr.  Byram,  can  no  doubt  sup- 
ply that  information  for  the  Burlington. 

Mr.  Park:  I  would  be  very  glad  to  furnish  you  with  the 
pension  system  of  the  Illinois  Central,  and  the  rules  and  regula- 
tions of  the  hospital  department. 

Mr.   Stone:     I  would  also  like  to  have  furnished  to  the 


702 

Board,  wliile  we  are  on  tliat  same  siil)ject,  if  you  will  pardon 
the  digression  again — I  wonld  like  to  have  each  railroad  furnish 
the  age  limit,  beyond  wliieh  they  will  not  hire  lirenien,  and 
beyond  which  they  will  not  hire  engineers,  that  is,  on  those  roads 
that  do  hire  engineers.  There  are  roads  in  the  Western  conntry 
that  never  hire  engineers.  They  occasionally  rlischarge  one, 
bnt  they  never  hire  anyone. 

The  Chairman:  That  is  the  information  that  I  sought  a 
while  ago,  when  I  asked  the  Hi-st  (|uestion. 

Mr,  Park:  1  think  tlie  general  ])roi)osition  is  that  some 
railroads  do  not  employ  new  men  over  35  or  old  lucii  over  45; 
that  is,  men  of  experience. 

Mr.  Stone:  Pardon  iiic  again,  but  is  it  not  a  fact  that,  on 
many  of  the  roads,  they  will  not  hire  a  fireman  beyond  28  years? 

Mr.  Park:  I  have  no  personal  knowledge  of  any  limit  ex- 
cept that  of  35. 

Mr.  Stone:  One  of  the  gentlemen  in  the  rear,  from  the 
Great  Northern,  says  the  (Jreat  Northern  limit  is  27  for  firemen. 
I  thought  it  was  somewhere  in  the  neighl)orhood  of  27  or  28.  Tf 
>  on  are  beyond  the  age  of  28  they  will  not  hire  you.  If  I  wanted 
a  position  as  engineei-,  because  I  have  white  hair,  although  1  am 
only  53  years  old,  there  would  not  be  any  of  the  roads  in  Western 
territory  which  would  em])loy  me  if  I  was  looking  for  a  job. 

Mr.  Park :  (.)h,  yes,  we  would  em]ilo>-  you  :  Imt  you  would 
not  be  eligible  to  the  ])ension  fund. 

Mr,  Stone:  1  can  bring  in  man  after  man,  gentlemen,  if  it 
is  necessary  to  prove  to  you,  that  they  will  tell  you  first — when 
you  ask  for  a  position  the  first  thing  they  look  at  is  your  age, 
and,  if  you  are  over  35  years  of  age,  they  will  tell  you  that  you 
need  not  fill  out  the  blank  because  they  will  not  consider  it. 
With  some  of  the  roads  it  is  42,  other  roads  it  is  40,  some  of 
these  AVest(^rn  roads  the  age  limit  is  35.  Tf  you  get  beyond  that 
age  you  don't  need  to  fill  out  an  a])i)lication,  because  it  will  not 
be  considered. 

Coming  back  to  this  table — 

Mr.  Carter:     What  table  is  that? 

Mr.  Stone:  The  table  showing  the  earnings  the  man  made 
as  an  engineer.  Von  have  only  one  table  there  that  shows  these 
earnings  by  months.  This  table  doesn't  ])urport  to  show  any- 
thing  but   what   a   man   earned   as   an   engineer   during   those 


703 

months.  For  exanipk',  if  a  man  was  cut  oif  the  board  and  went 
out  harvesting  to  earn  a  living-  for  his  family,  this  tables  does 
not  show  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  H  he  went  to  work  at  any  other  labor  outside 
of  railroad  work,  this  table  would  not  show  anvthino-  of  that 
kind  at  all? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Park:  Mr.  Carter,  you  mentioned,  1  think  at  least 
twice,  that  you  would  be  willing  to  enter  into  a  profit  sharing 
proposition  if  you  could  manage  the  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:  Do  I  gather  from  that,  that  the  tiremen  could 
manage  the  railroads  better  than  they  are  managed  now? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  believe,  if  the  employes  had  jurisdiction 
over  the  financial  affairs,  that  the  money  would  be  spent  differ- 
ently. 

Mr.  Park:  Isn't  it  a  fact,  Mr.  Carter,  that  such  men  as 
Mr.  Eipley,  Mr.  Gardner,  Mr.  Markham  and  Mr.  Bush  were 
clerks  at  one  time,  and  that  such  men  as  Mr.  Earling  and  Mr. 
Mohler  were  telegraph  operators ;  and  such  men  as  Mr.  Aishton 
and  Mr.  Smith  were  bridge  carpenters;  and,  isn't  it  a  fact  that 
nearly  all  of  the  presidents  and  managing  officials  did  start  as 
firemen  or  machinists  or  clerks  or  operators  or  agents?  Do 
you  think  that  the  firemen,  without  any  experience,  or  with  the 
experience  that  they  have  had,  would  be  more  com])etent  to  run 
these  railroads,  and  run  them  more  fairly  than — 

Mr.  Carter :  If  we  owned  the  railroads  we  would  hire  Mr. 
Earling,  but  we  would  tell  him  what  to  do  with  our  money. 

We  believe  the  men  who  are  operating  these  roads  now 
have  the  highest  degree  of  managerial  efficiency;  but  the  me^ 
who  tell  them  what  to  do  are  not  employes.  To  my  mind,  I 
know,  if  we  owned  the  railroads,  we  would  like  these  men  in 
exactly  the  same  positions  they  now  occupy;  or,  to  explain  it 
differently,  if  the  government  owned  the  railroads,  I  truly  think 
that  men  who  have  demonstrated  their  high  ability  for  man- 
agerial efficiency  would  be  still  employed  by  the  government. 
They  could  not  help  it ;  they  would  have  to,  and  pay  them  just 
as  good  salaries. 


704 

Mr.  Park:  On  governinont-owiied  railroads,  where  rates 
are  two  or  three  times  higher  than  they  are  on  the  railroads  in 
the  United  States,  do  the  firemen  and  engineers  get  more  pay 
and  do  they  have  better  working  conditions'? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not  know  of  any  government-owned  rail- 
road in  the  United  States.    There  may  be  one. 

Mr.  Park :  The  Panama  Railroad  is  owned  by  the  govern- 
ment, is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  rather  think  that  the  Panama  Railroad  has 
been  operated  by  engineers  and  firemen;  or,  rather,  engineers 
and  conductors  from  this  country,  and  they  have  paid  even  as 
high,  if  not  a  higher  rate,  I  think  you  will  find — that  is,  the 
officers  and  railroad  men,  managing  officers  sent  there,  are  usu- 
ally paid  a  compensatory  rate,  except  when  they  use  army  of- 
ficers, and  they  very  seldom  pay  army  officers  as  high  wages  as 
men  in  industrial  life.  I  think  when  Mr.  Shonts  went  there  first 
—    Am  I  right,  was  it  Mr.  Shonts  that  first  went  there? 

Mr.  Park:    Wallace. 

Mr.  Carter :  When  Mr.  Wallace  went  there  I  think  the  rec- 
ords will  show  that  they  paid  him  at  least  a  fair  salary.  I  think 
when  Mr.  Shonts  went  there  the  government  paid  him  a  fair 
salary ;  but  whenever  the  Army  Department,  or  whatever  it  was, 
took  over  the  road,  I  am  quite  sure  that  the  officers  of  the  United 
State  Army  did  not  get  as  high  salaries  as  were  paid  to  their 
predecessors,  or  would  have  been  paid  the  same  men  in  other 
industries. 

Mr.  Park :  Isn  't  it  a  fact  that,  under  the  government  own- 
ership of  the  Panama  Railroad,  no  organization  of  the  engineers 
and  firemen  was  permitted? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  I  think  not.  We  have  been  accused  the 
other  way.  We  have  been  accused  of  trying  to  interfere  with 
the  operation  of  the  road ;  but  I  want  to  say  here,  speaking  for 
the  engineers  particularly,  that  all  we  did  down  there  was,  we 
tried  to  get  the  laws  of  the  United  States  extended  to  the  Panama 
Canal. 

j\Ir.  Park:  You  have  some  knowledge,  then,  of  the  employ- 
ment of  engineers  and  firemen  there.  Were  they  not  subjected 
to  a  rigid  physical  examination? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  you  will  find  they  were  subjected  to 


m    .  ft^MB 


705 

the  same  physical  examination  they  would  have  been  on  any 
other  railroad. 

Mr.  Park :  If  incapacitated  for  any  reason  they  were  per- 
emptorily put  out  of  the  service  without  any  pension  compen- 
sation I 

Mr.  Carter:  Without  specific  knowledge  of  the  subject, 
I  would  say  yes. 

Mr.  Park:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  would  like  to  ask  one  more  question,  if  I 
may.  In  the  government-owned  railroad  that  you  are  taking, 
you  would  recommend,  of  course,  these  high  operating  officials, 
but  do  you  think  the  government  would  hire  some  of  these  finan- 
cial pirates  who  have  been  exploiting  some  of  these  western 
railroads  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  am  not  a  competent  witness.  I  don 't  think 
the  Chicago  &  Alton  Eailroad  would  have  been  wrecked,  as 
it  was,  and  many  other  railroads. 

Mr.  Park:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  capitalization  of  the 
Panama  Railroad  has  been  raised  since  the  government  took  it 
.over  from  about  $60,000  a  mile  to  $250,000? 

Mr.  Carter :    I  do  not  know  that.    It  may  be. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Mr.  Carter,  do  you  believe  that,  if  the  govern- 
ment took  over  the  roads,  compensation  would  be  continued  at 
the  rates  which  now  obtain,  or  be  raised  or  lowered? 

Mr.  Carter:  Prefacing  my  reply  with  the  expression  of 
opinion  that  I  hope  the  government  will  not  take  over  the  rail- 
roads, I  mil  say  that  I  believe  that  our  men  would  be  on  an 
eight-hour  day  and  would  be  compensated  in  some  manner  not 
now  appearing,  should  they  be  required  to  work  over  eight  hours 
a  day.  I  think  that  civil  service  would  apply,  which  would  be 
practically  a  substitution  for  our  seniority  rule;  in  fact,  I  don't 
think  our  seniority  rule  w^ould  be  interfered  with,  and  I  think, 
perhaps,  that  taking  the  railroad  men  in  all  ranks,  it  would  be  a 
great  godsend  to  them.  I  mean  to  say,  section  men  and  the 
clerks  in  the  offices  and  such  as  that,  but,  as  it  applies  to  the 
organized  crafts,  I  doubt  very  much  that  it  would  be  to  their 
advantage  to  have  the  government  take  over  the  railroads. 

Mr.  Nagel :  What  is  the  highest  salary  paid  by  the  govern- 
ment, excepting  the  President  and  Vice-President? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  don't  know,  I  must  confess. 


706 

Mr.  Na^^cl:  Well,  excepting  the  President  aud  the  Vice- 
President  and  the  Justices  of  the  Supreme  Court,  do  you  recall 
any  salary  over  $12,000? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  I  do  not,  except  a  man  wlio  may  be 
employed  for  some  special  commission. 

Mr.  Nagel :     I  am  speaking  of  the  regular  salaries. 

^Ir.  Carter:     No,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Nagel:    "What  do  you  think  bureau  chiefs  get! 

Mr.  Carter:     I  don't  know. 

Mr,  Nagel:  $5,000  is  quite  a  considerable  salary,  isn't  it? 
Even  assistant  secretaries  don't  get  more  than  that. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think,  from  the  information  I  get,  that  they 
are  very  well  paid. 

Mr.  Nagel:  When  you  go  below  the  chief  of  bureau, 
$2,000  is  quite  an  unusual  salary,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Carter:    I  don't  know. 

^[r.  Nagel:  I  think  you  will  find  it  so.  When  you  come  to 
the  clerks,  $1500  and  $1800  salaries  are  regarded  as  very  good 
compensations. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  know,  but  I  think  it  would  be  a  pleasant 
dream  for  the  average  railroad  clerk  to  get  one  of  those  clerk- 
ships. 

Mr.  Park:    Mr.  Nagel,  isn't  that  the  maximum? 

Mr.  Nagel:  I  am  speaking  of  good  salaries.  I  merely 
wanted  to  indicate  that  the  government  is  hardly  offering  much 
encouragement  in  the  line  of  high  salaries.  With  respect  to 
hours,  a  subject  upon  which  you  dwelt,  the  situation  is  entirely 
different. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  that  is  accurate  so  far  as  it  refers  to 
salaried  positions;  but,  I  think  you  will  find  that,  when  it  comes 
to  the  mechanical  trades,  or,  if  they  have  got  a  ditch  to  dig.  if 
they  have  got  a  ship  to  build,  or,  if  they  have  got  a  gun  to  make, 
you  will  find  that  they  pay  equally  as  high  wages  to  boiler 
makers,  machinists  and  ditch  diggers  as  do  other  industries,  and 
at  the  same  time  they  are  working  an  eight-hour  day. 

^Ir.  Nagel:  Then,  that  would  present  the  question  within 
which  class  you  would  come? 

Mr.  Carter:  We  would  not  be  clerks  nor  salaried  men.  We 
woiild  be  paid  for  what  we  earned. 

Mr.  Nagel :    You  might  be  compared  with  some  of  the  scieu 


707 

tific  bureaus  where  salaries  are  very  low.  I  have  known  men 
to  receive  a  thousand  dollars  a  year,  and  get  five  thousand  dol- 
lars on  the  day  when  they  walked  out. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  know,  it  is  a  shame,  I  know  that. 

Mr.  Park:  I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Nagel  if  you  have  knowl- 
edge of  the  minimum  wages  in  the  departments  for  clerks? 

Mr.  Nagel :  I  have  an  impression.  The  minimum  wage,  of 
course,  is  extremely  low,  as  low  as  $600  and  $900,  and  $1,000. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  don't  want  you  to  think  that  the  reason  I  am 
opposed  to  government  ownership  is  that  I  might  be  out  of  a 
job,  but  I  think  you  will  find  that  engineers,  firemen,  conductors 
and  trainmen  believe  that  their  interests  are  best  served  by  pres- 
ent methods,  rather  than  government  ownership.  My  remarks 
apply  to  those  classes  of  railroad  employes  who  have  never 
been  able  to  help  themselves.  It  will  require  the  government 
to  help  them  if  they  are  to  be  helped  at  all. 

Mr.  Nagel:  I  was  trying  to  prevent  a  misconception  of 
those  averages.  Is  it  not  true  that  a  mistake  made  by  an  en- 
gineer or  a  fireman  is  a  much  more  grave  matter  tlian  a  mistake 
made  by  a  carpenter  or  hod  carrier? 

Mr.  Carter:     There  is  no  question  about  that. 

Mr.  Nagel:  In  one  case  a  plank  or  a  board  may  be  spoiled, 
and  in  the  other  case  a  train  may  be  wrecked? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:  That  fixes  the  responsibility  of  the  engineer 
and  fireman,  which  you  name  as  one  of  the  chief  grounds  for  a 
wage  increase? 

Mr.  Carter:     We  recognize  that. 

Mr.  Nagel:  So  it  is  difficult  to  institute  comparisons  be- 
tween those  occupations? 

Mr.  Carter:  We  recognize  that  it  is  right  that  engineers 
and  firemen  should  be  held  responsible,  and  that  their  discipline 
should  be  far  more  exacting  than  that  of  a  bricklayer,  or  a  hod 
carrier,  or  a  carpenter. 

Mr.  Nagel :  And  that  is  the  ground  which  you  allege  for  a 
raise? 

Mr.  Carter :     One  of  the  grounds.    We  have  several. 

Mr.  Nagel :  I  asked  you  yesterday  whether  you  could  not 
state  a  reason  in  favor  of  the  standardization  of  the  wages  of 


708 

engineers  and  lii(?inen  in  your  entire  territory,  whieli  would  not 
obtain  in  the  case  of  private  employment? 

Mr.  Carter:  Railroads  are  not  limited  in  their  operations 
to  one  locality.  For  instance,  the  Santa  Fe  Railroad,  leaving 
Chicago,  goes  to  the  Pacilic  Coast  in  one  direction,  goes  to  the 
Gnlf  Coast  in  another  direction,  perhaps  intersecting,  for  a 
guess,  twelve  or  fourteen  states. 

i  mention  the  Santa  Fe  Road  without  any  special  reason 
for  selecting  it.  The  same  would  apply  to  the  Chicago  &  North 
Western,  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  &  St.  Paul,  the  Rock  Island, 
or  any  other  road.  We  believe  that  each  one  of  these  roads 
should  pay  the  same  rate  to  the  engineers  and  tiremen  where 
the  same  class  of  service  is  performed.  That  is,  if  a  Consoli- 
dation engine,  weighing  200,000  pounds  on  drivers,  out  of  Chi- 
cago gets  a  certain  amount  of  money,  on  that  same  engine  the 
engineer  out  of  Los  Angeles,  or  out  of  any  other  town,  should 
receive  the  same.  We  do  make  this  exception,  that  in  the  moun- 
tain districts,  where  the  grade  is  1.8  per  cent,  there  should  be  a 
ditferential  ]iaid;  but  otherwise  we  think  there  should  be  a 
standardization  of  rates ;  and  the  reason  Ave  think  so  is  because 
we  have  abandoned,  I  think  with  the  consent  of  the  railroads 
themselves,  the  individual  wage  bargain,  and  have  now  adopted 
a  concerted  w^age  bargain.  Now,  having  adopted  a  concerted 
wage  bargain,  it  will  only  be  through  this  concerted  wage  bar- 
gain that  we  can  get  a  standardization  of  wages.  Under  the 
old  plan  it  might  have  been  said  to  us,  ''AVhy,  if  the  Atchison, 
Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  does  not  pay  you  as  much  money  for  a 
given  work  as  does  the  C.  B.  &  Q.,  why  do  not  the  men  on  the 
Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe  get  busy?"  That  was  the  railroad 
expression.  Now,  there  was  a  time  when  they  could  get  busy, 
when  they  could  negotiate  with  their  officials,  or  coerce  their 
officials  to  pay  them  as  much  money  as  the  C.  B.  &  Q.  paid ;  but 
when  they  abandoned  the  individual  bargain — and  the  railroads 
apparently  with  the  consent  of  the  managers  have  drifted  into 
the  collective  bargain— then  the  men  employed  on  the  Santa  Fe 
road  lost  their  opportunity  to  bring  the  wages  up  to  the  C.  B.  & 
Q.,  and  must  bring  u]i  their  wages  by  this  kind  of  a  proceeding. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Now,  you  stated  the  reason,  that  in  private 
business  each  locality  governs  all  the  conditions  that  would  go 


709 

to  make  the  rate,  whereas  in  the  railroad  business  one  system 
may  extend  through  the  whole  territory. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:     That  is  one  reason? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  that  is  one  reason. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Is  there  not  a  further  reason  to  be  found  in 
the  fact  that  a  common  carrier  is  a  quasi-public  corporation, 
and  is  subject  to  government  regidation  with  respect  to  the 
rates  which  it  may  charge,  which  are  fairly  standardized,  and 
which  may  therefore  justify  a  standardization  of  wages,  which 
in  a  measure  are  dependent  upon  the  rates  received? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  and  I  will  say  that  in  nearly  everything 
except  wages  matters  have  been  standardized  for  railroads. 
The  Master  Car  Builders'  Association  have  practically  stand- 
ardized evervthing  mechanical.  The  Master  Mechanics'  Asso- 
ciation  have  standardized  all  things  perhaps  as  nearly  as  they 
can,  and  I  think  you  will  find  there  is  a  strong  desire  to  stand- 
ardize wages.  I  think  Mr.  Park  has  made  that  statement  in 
the  past,  perhaps. 

Mr.  Nagel :  I  was  trying  to  distinguish  between  the  desire 
and  the  reason  for  it. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  I  have  a  quotation  from  Mr.  Park 
himself,  where  he  said  he  believed  there  should  be  a  standardi- 
zation of  rates  of  wages,  and  rules  of  discipline. 

The  Chairman:  Are  government  clerks  as  a  general  rule 
satisfied  with  the  salaries  they  are  now  receiving? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir,  I  do  not  think  they  are.  They  are  all 
struggling  for  an  increase.  But  I  mean  this,  Mr.  Chairman, 
that  I  do  not  know  of  clerks  in  any  other  industry — ordinary 
clerks,  I  mean — who  would  not  be  glad  to  accept  employment  at 
Washington  with  the  government. 

Mr.  Park:  You  have  no  figures,  Mr.  Carter,  showing  the 
relative  pay  of  clerks,  say,  in  Marshall  Field  «&  Company  and 
the  other  large  department  stores  and  industries  as  compared 
with  railway  clerks? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not  know  what  their  bookkeepers  re- 
ceive, and  when  I  make  the  statement  I  am  about  to  make,  I  do 
not  mean  Marshall  Field  &  Company ;  but  I  understand  the  pay 
that  girls  receive  usually  in  these  department  stores  has  almost 
resulted  in  scandal. 


710 

Mr.  raik:  TIk'H  you  do  not  know  tliat  the  wages  of  the 
clerks  in  the  industries  and  stores  are  higher  than  those  paid  by 
tlio  railroads? 

Mr.  Carter:  J  am  (|nite  sure  they  are.  For  instance,  I  can 
not  get  a  good  stenogra])her— I  say  a  good  stenograi)her,  an 
expert  male  stenograplier — for  less  than  $125  or  $100  at  the  very 
least,  and  I  have  tried  hard.  1  have  sought  stenographers  of 
that  character,  and  I  understand  that  a  stenographer  working  in 
a  railroad  office  seldom  gets  that  much. 

Mr.  Park:  1  hoj^e  Mr.  Hagerty  does  not  put  in  the  paper 
the  statement  that  you  want  a  stenograplier  for  $140  a  month. 
I  think  vou  would  have  a  good  many  applications. 

Mr."  Carter:     Did  I  say  $140?     I  thought  I  said  $125.     I. 
want  to  say  to  you  that  we  pay  $125,  and  are  glad  to  pay  it,  in 
order  to  get  the  services  required,  and  we  sometimes  have  great 
difficulty  in  getting  the  service  for  that  money. 

Mr.  Park:  Is  it  not  a  fact,  Mr.  Carter,  that  the  wages  of 
clerks  are  raised  according  to  individual  capacity,  that  they  are 
not  all  given  a  blanket  raise,  but  one  .clerk  may  develop  the 
faculty  for  increased  responsibility,  and  that  is  recognized,  and 
he  may  be  advanced  and  go  around  other  clerks  older  in  the 
service?    Could  you  apply  strict  seniority  to  that  kind  of  w^ork? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  perhaps  it  could  not  be  strict,  but 
seniority  could  be  applied,  and  I  am  quite  sure  that  those  clerks 
who  are  overlooked,  seriously  think  that  they  have  been  over- 
looked unjustly. 

Mr.  Park:  1  have  in  mind  a  personal  friend  of  mine  who 
has  a  very  good  position  in  your  office,  and  I  think  there  are 
other  men  there  who  are  older  in  the  service  than  he  is,  who  are 
not  as  well  i)aid.  Do  you  have  seniority  in  the  office  of  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen? 

Mr.  Carter:  Mr.  Donehower,  who  is  one  of  our  most  effi- 
cient clerks,  and  I  think  one  of  your  best  friends,  has  been  in  the 
office,  I  think,  sin,ce  1895,  and  he  has  been  advanced,  and  he  is 
now  receiving  next  to  the  highest  rate  of  pay  paid  in  that  office. 
The  only  man  receiving  a  higher  rate  is  Mr.  Bennet,  who  is  chief 
clerk,  and  he  has  been  there  I  think  since  1887. 

Mr.  Park:  Mr.  Donehowor  then  has  developed  a  capacitj'^ 
for  increased  responsibility  which  entitles  him  to  more  pay  than 
some  of  the  other  clerks  who  mav  be  older  in  the  service? 


711 

Mr.  Carter;  Well,  he  always  had.  I  mean  to  say  that  Mr. 
Donehower  is  an  exceptionally  studious  man.  He  is  a  man  who 
tries  to  fit  himself  at  all  times  for  any  work  to  which  we  assign 
him. 

Mr.  Park:  We  have  in  the  railroads  a  great  many  clerks 
of  that  character,  and  they  usually  go  ahead  of  the  others.  We 
have  clerks  who  get  $1800  and  $2000  and  $2500,  and  I  guess 
$3000.  I  think  the  railroads  pay  their  clerks  better  than  the 
government  does.  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  question  about 
that. 

Mr.  Shea:  Mr.  Carter,  I  was  going  to  ask  you  about  Mr. 
Donehower.    Does  he  not  rank  second  on  the  seniority  list? 

Mr.  Carter:  He  is  the  next  to  the  oldest  man  on  the  senior- 
ity list  in  our  office. 

Mr.  Shea:     And  he  is  paid  accordingly,  is  he  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  He  has  been  advanced  almost  exactly  in  his 
seniority  order. 

Mr.  Park :    But  you  do  not  apply  seniority  in  the  office  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Well,  nearly  so.  If  a  man  is  capable,  he  is 
advanced.  We  can  not  advance  a  clerk  who  is  not  an  expert 
stenographer,  to  a  position  as  an  expert  stenographer. 

Mr.  Park:  But  you  have  no  organization  in  your  office  that 
compels  you  to  advance  by  seniority? 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  but  vou  will  find  that  senioritv  has  been 
very  closely  adhered  to. 

Mr.  Park:  That  is  the  natural  thing  to  do,  all  things  being 
equal. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  it  is.  I  think  the  government  tries  to 
do  that  under  its  Civil  Service. 

Mr.    Park :    I  do  not  know  about  the  government. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  they  favor  the  old 
clerks. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  conductors  and  train- 
men in  the  western  country  have  a  standard  rate  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  understand  that  so  far  as  the  wages  of  con- 
ductors and  trainmen  are  concerned,  they  have  already  accom- 
plished what  we  have  tried  to  accomplish  here. 

Mr.  Burgess:  That  applies  on  all  the  railroads  that  are  in 
this  particular  movement? 

Mr.  Carter:     T  will  not  positively  so  state,  but  it  is  my 


712 

opinion  tliat  there  is  practically  a  standardization  of  the  pay  of 
conductors  and  trainmen.  I  understand  there  are  some  excep- 
tions, but  there  is  an  almost  complete  standardization. 

Mr.  Burgess:     That  is  all  I  wish  to  ask. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  by  standardization,  you  mean  the 
adoption  both  of  a  uniform  rate  and  of  a  uniform  base  to  which 
to  apply  it? 

Mr.  Carter:    I  presume  so. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  think  we  went  into  the  question  of  stand- 
ardization one  day  here.  A  mere  rate,  unless  applied  to  a  uni- 
form base,  which  measures  uniformly  the  day  and  everything 
that  pertains  to  it,  would  not  bring  about  uniformity  in  com- 
pensation. 

Mr.  Carter :  It  would  bring  about  uniformity  in  rates.  It 
would  then  require  another  movement  like  this  to  bring  about 
uniformity  in  rules. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Applying  simply  uniformity  in  rates,  unless 
the  base  to  which  it  was  applied  was  uniform,  would  not  cause 
the  same  money  to  be  paid  by  the  railroad  company  to  its  em- 
ployes that  another  railroad  company  might  pay  to  its  employes 
for  the  same  service? 

Mr.  Carter:  For  the  same  service,  exactly  the  same;  but 
the  other  company  may  pay  for  service  that  this  railroad  com- 
pany does  not  pay  for,  and  therefore  a  man's  earnings  would 
be  increased. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Where  there  is  a  reservation,  as  there  is  here, 
whereby  an  engine  for  instance  which  now  takes  a  rate,  because 
of  size  of  cylinders,  which  is  higher  than  the  rate  which  you 
request,  the  higher  rate  will  be  retained,  will  it  not,  and  your 
exhibit  as  introduced  shows  that,  by  leaving  that  space  blank! 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  that  is  the  understanding. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  a  uniformity  of  standardization, 
wliether  it  was  on  10,000  pounds  on  drivers,  or  250,000  pounds 
on  drivers,  would  not  in  fact  bring  about  uniformity  in  pay 
unless  the  base  to  which  that  would  apply  was  uniform  on  all 
roads? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  would  effect  uniformity  only  so  far  as  it 
did  effect  unifonnity.  It  would  not  effect  uniformity  in  those 
things  not  provided. 


713 

Mr.  Sheean :     It  would  effect  uniformity  only  insofar  as  the 
base  was  uniform. 

Mr.  Carter:     So  far  as  the  rates  were  uniform  I 

Mr.  Sheean:     Mr.  Carter,  you  distinguished  yesterday  be- 
tween rates  and  earnings. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mere  uniformity  in  rates  will  not  bring  about 
uniformity  in  earnings. 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  you  have  got  to  have  uniformity  of  rates 
and  base. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  should  like  to  explain,  if  the  Board  please, 
that  the  use  of  the  saving  clause  is  an  evidence  of  the  conser- 
vatism of  the  request  to  be  aribtrated,  or  to  be  settled  through 
negotiation.  If  the  requests  of  the  men  were  radical,  they  would 
ask  for  the  highest  rates  now  paid  on  any  railroad,  and  by  that 
process  eliminate  the  necessity  for  a  saving  clause.  It  is  only 
because  they  have  asked  this  standardization  to  be  adopted  at 
less  than  the  highest  rates  that  it  is  necessary  to  protect  those 
rates  which  are  higher.  Now,  if  saving  clauses  are  to  be  aban- 
doned, it  would  necessitate  that  the  requests  be  made  still 
higher ;  and  therefore  I  say  to  you  that  the  presence  of  a  saving 
clause  is  prima  facie  evidence  of  the  conservatism  of  the  request. 

Mr.  Byram :  Mr.  Carter,  the  desirability  of  standardization 
would  not  carry  you  so  far  as  to  want  a  standardization  that  did 
not  involve  an  increase  in  pay,  would  it? 

Mr.  Carter :  It  is  our  purpose  to  help  the  engineers  get  in- 
creases, and  we  would  protest  against  decreases. 

Mr.  Byram:  Would  it  be  better  to  treat  standardization 
as  a  separate  proposition,  than  to  standardize  on  the  present 
basis,  if  you  please,  and  then  consider  the  proposition  of  an 
increase  separately? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  it  has  been  the  purpose  to  standardize 
the  wages  on  the  present  basis,  and  then  next  to  standardize 
the  rules,  and  then  everything  would  be  standardized. 

Mr.  Byram:  Yes,  but  the  standardization  which  you  pro- 
pose here  involves  a  very  decided  increase  in  pay  along  with  it, 
does  it  notf 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  Exhibit  4  shows 
exactly  the  increase  in  pay  on  each  engine. 


714 

Mr.  Byraiii :  it  involves  an  increase  in  pay.  It  is  not  stand- 
ardization solely  for  the  purpose  of  standardization,  but  it  also 
involves  an  increase  in  pay. 

Mr.  Carter:  It  involves  an  increase  in  pay,  except  where 
indicated  in  Exhibit  4  by  three  stars. 

The  Chairman:     Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  in  connection  with  a  former  ex- 
hibit, I  believe  you  stated  that  it  was  your  belief  that  the  wages 
of  engineers  and  firemen  would  be  increased  in  proportion  to 
the  task  they  performed,  and  in  proportion  to  their  earnings 
for  their  employers  and  in  proportion  to  their  productive  effi- 
ciency. Is  there  anv  other  reason  whv  you  believe  that  the 
wages  of  engineers  and  firemen  should  be  increased? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  my  statements  pertaining  to  increased 
responsibility,  increased  labors  and  increased  productive  effi- 
ciency were  })articularly  with  reference  to  the  gradations  of 
wages  by  weights  on  drivers.  I  think  that  was  the  matter  under 
discussion,  and  I  now  state  that,  regardless  of  a  division  of 
weights  on  drivers  as  basis  of  pay  of  engineers  and  firemen, 
those  same  reasons  should  now  be  considered  in  increasing  the 
wages  of  locomotive  engineers  and  firemen ;  but  I  have  another 
reason  which  has  nothing  to  do  with  a  division  of  weights  on 
drivers,  why  the  engineers  and  firemen  should  have  their  wages 
increased,  and  that  is  the  increased  cost  of  living. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  you  prepared  any  tables  or  data  which 
bear  out  this  statement? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  I  have  in  my  hand  a  book  entitled  ' '  Increased 
Cost  of  Living  of  Locomotive  Firemen,  Hostlers  and  Engineers 
in  Twenty-nine  Western  Towns."  Do  you  identify  this  as  the 
work  you  have  prepared? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  do. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  pleases,  I  desire  to  introduce 
this  volume  as  Exhibit  No.  9. 

(The  document  so  offered  and  identified  was  received  in 
evidence  and  thereupon  marked  ''Employes'  Exhibit  No.  9,  re- 
ceived in  evidence  December  9,  1914.") 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  will  you  kindly  explain,  for  the 
benefit  of  the  Board,  the  purpose  of  this  exhibit  and  the  manner 
in  which  it  has  been  prepared? 


715 

Mr.  Carter:  As  stated  before,  we  had  knowledge  that  the 
last  increase  in  wages  for  locomotive  firemen  in  the  western 
district,  secured  througii  an  arbitration,  imder  the  Federal  Law, 
was  based  entirely,  in  the  majority  of  cases,  upon  the  increased 
cost  of  living.  We  had  knowledge  that  even  on  the  coal-burning 
locomotives  the  Board  had  based  one-half  of  the  increase  solely 
on  account  of  the  increased  cost  of  living.  Tiaving  that  knowl- 
edge,  last  November  it  appeared  to  me  that  an  investigation 
should  be  made,  a  special  investigation,  to  ascertain  if  there 
had  been  another  increase  in  the  cost  of  living  of  locomotive 
engineers  and  firemen,  in  the  same  towns  and  employed  on  the 
same  roads  that  were  included  in  the  award  of  1910. 

I  had  at  my  command  the  official  reports  of  the  Bureau  of 
Labor  Statistics  of  the  United  States;  but  I  found  that  they 
applied  only  to  the  larger  cities,  the  larger  centers  of  popula- 
tion, and  I  anticipated  that  if  we  depended  upon  the  govern- 
ment reports,  as  issued  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics,  that 
some  one  might  question  whether  the  same  increase  affected 
engineers  and  firemen  in  outlying  districts,  in  the  smaller  towns. 
I  also  recognized  the  fact  that,  in  the  large  cities,  the  retail 
prices  vary  with  the  business  site  or  location.  For  instance, 
you  might  find,  in  some  localities,  merchants  were  selling  goods 
at  a  lower  retail  price  than  in  other  localities  in  the  same  cities. 
I  also  recognized  the  fact  that  many  merchants  in  the  larger 
cities  catered  to  a  trade  that  did  not  include  firemen,  and  all  of 
these  things  might  be  brought  out  for  the  purpose  of  discrediting 
the  value  of  the  governmental  reports. 

I  found  nothing  in  Canada  that  went  back  to  1909  and  1910 
for  retail  prices.  Tiiey  have  been  printing  a  most  extensive 
report  there  on  wholesale  prices,  but  it  has  only  been  within 
the  last  year  or  so  that  they  have  begun  presenting  informa- 
tion concerning  retail  prices,  and,  as  evidence  that  it  is  but  a 
recent  addition  to  their  work,  they  now  publish  it  as  an  appendix 
to  their  wholesale  prices. 

I  also  recognize  it  is  a  fact  that  we  should  ascertain  what 
had  been  the  increase  in  retail  prices  of  articles  actually  pur- 
chased by  firemen.  Having  in  view  the  necessity  of  something 
unusual,  I  devised  certain  schedules  or  report  forms.  When  I 
use  the  word  "schedule"  I  mean  a  list  of  matters  to  be  investi- 
gated, and  to  which  replies  should  be  added. 


716 

I  first  took,  for  the  meat  schedule,  exactly  the  same  schedule 
as  adopted  by  the  Uuitod  States.    There  being  no  milk  schedule, 
or  increase  in  price  of  milk,  shown  in  the  governmental  reports, 
or  at  least  issued  by  the  United  States  Bureau  of  Labor  Sta^ 
tistics,  I  found  it  impracticable  to,  myself,  devise  any  extensive 
schedule,  so  I  limited  it  to  the  price  of  milk  when  sold  in  different 
quantities  and  the  difterent  kinds  of  milk  sold.    With  regard 
to  groceries,  I  realized  there  are  many  things  purchased  from 
a  grocer  not  at  all  included  in  the  reports  of  the  United  States 
Government,  and  which  at  that  time  had  not  been  included  in 
the  reports  of  the  Canadian  Government,  so  I  called  to  my 
assistance  one  of  the  grocers  of  the  city  of  Peoria,  who,  per- 
ha]is,  does  the  most  extensive  business,  and  he  and  I  went  over 
price  lists  and  he  finally  0.  K.'d  a  list  of  one  hundred  and  eleven 
standard  articles,  or  items  perhaps  they  should  be  called,  which 
are  usually  purchased  l)y  the  average  family.     You  will  note, 
by  referring  to  the  schedule  of  this  grocery  report,  beginning 
on  page  5  and  extending  over  to  page  7,  that  there  are  111  items. 
The  purpose  in  numbering  these  items  by  number  was  so  that 
you,  without  reading  the  line,  could  compare  them  by  item  num- 
bers.   The  item  numbers  were  inserted  to  facilitate  future  com- 
pilations, computations  and  derivative  tables.     You  will  note 
in  the  first  items,  1,  2,  3  and  4,  that  they  apply  to  apples.    Now, 
in  order  to  be  able  to  answer  whether  this  was  a  Ben  Davis 
apple,  or  if  I  knew  Avhether  it  was  a  Jonathan  apple,  I  wanted 
to  say  yes,  and  you  will  see  there,  I  have,  as  item  No.  1,  No.  1 
Baldwins ;  No.  2,  No.  1  Greenings ;  No.  3,  No.  1  Jonathans ;  and 
No.  4,  No.  1  Ben  Davis.    You  will  also  find  that  in  coffee  I  show 
several  grades.     In  cheese,  three  grades.    In  flour,  I  grouped 
that  by  the  quantity  purchased.    You  will  find,  in  many  instances, 
that  there  is  a  grouping  of  the  same  general  data  through  differ- 
ent item  numbers.    We  worked  on  that  quite  a  while,  and  the 
gentleman  to  whom  I  refer,  Mr.  Sengenberger,  said  he  believed 
that  was  about  as  accurate  and  complete  a  schedule  as  could  be 
devised,  and  I  accepted  his  judgnient. 

With  regard  to  the  schedule  for  shoes,  I  found  it  was  prac- 
tically impossible  to  make  a  schedule  for  shoes;  but  I  outlined  a 
method  of  questioning  which  was  adhered  to  as  closely  as  possi- 
ble by  the  investigators. 

With  regard  to  clothing,  I  visited  personal  friends  of  mine 


717 

who  are  connected  with  extensive  retail  clothing  establishments, 
and  learned  that  it  would  be  impossible  to  make  comparisons  of 
the  prices  of  clothing,  for  the  reason  that  the  price  of  the  same 
suit  changes  greatly  in  the  same  year,  sometimes  as  much  as  50 
per  cent.  I  learned  that  in  the  early  part  of  the  season  mer- 
chants have  to  get  a  high  profit  on  their  goods,  for,  when  the 
season  passes,  they  probably  would  have  to  sell  them  at  cost  and 
sometimes  below  cost.  I  also  learned  that  there  was  a  constant 
change  in  the  quality  of  the  material,  in  the  cut  and  design  of  the 
clothing,  and  I  was  assured  by  a  merchant  in  whom  I  have  great 
faith  as  to  his  judgment,  that  it  would  be  impossible  to  make  any 
comparison,  for  no  one  else  had  ever  succeeded  in  making  accept- 
able comparisons. 

Now,  with  regard  to  fuel,  knowing  that  fuel  was  an  item  of 
considerable  expense  to  railroad  men,  I  attempted  to  ascertain 
information  on  that. 

By  the  way,  I  called  to  my  assistance  men,  in  whose  sincerity 
of  purpose,  in  whose  ability  and  in  whose  earnestness,  I  had 
great  faith ;  men  whom  I  believed,  if  they  went  out,  would  hon- 
estly and  sincerely  obtain  results.  In  fact,  would  be  able  to 
* '  carry  a  message  to  Garcia, ' '  as  Elbert  Hubbard  has  said.  They 
went  into  the  field  and  adhered  closely  to  the  instructions  and 
the  schedules,  and  we  have  a  bound  volume  here  of  their  reports. 
I  also  have  a  bound  volume  of  the  affidavits,  personally  acknowl- 
edged before  notaries  public,  of  the  merchants  who  gave  the 
information.  For  fear  that  any  special  investigation  conducted 
by  a  partisan  in  a  movement  of  this  kind  might  be  discredited  as 
being  partisan,  I  insisted  that  all  merchants  should  be  notified 
of  just  what  was  wanted,  and  that  before  filling  in  a  single  blank 
space  they  would  be  requested  to  make  oath  to  the  accuracy  of 
the  same,  before  a  notary  public.  Now,  when  that  instruction 
was  given,  I  anticipated  that  most  of  the  merchants  Avould  abso- 
lutely refuse  to  do  anything  of  the  kind.  To  my  surprise,  I  think 
only  one,  or  possibly  two,  of  all  these  merchants,  said  they  were 
too  busy  to  make  affidavit  thereto.  It  is  true  it  required  some 
waiting  on  the  part  of  the  investigators,  and  it  required,  in  many 
instances,  to  have  the  notary  public  go  to  the  store,  because  we 
could  not  ask  the  merchant  to  leave  his  store  and  go  to  the  office 
of  the  notary  public;  but,  by  referring  to  the  supporting  data, 
which  will  have  to  be  introduced  as  such,  as  we  have  not  two 


718 

copies  of  it,  you  will  find  how  carefully  these  reports  have  been 
prepared  and  how  the  retail  merchants  have  sworn  to  the  ac- 
curacy of  the  same. 

Now,  we  had  to  have  a  startinj^-  point.  We  recognized  tliat 
to  start  out  one  certain  day  would  require  an  enormous  number 
of  investigators,  all  of  whom  should  complete  their  work  in 
that  day.  Therefore,  we  instructed  the  investigators  to  say 
this  to  each  merchant:  ''What  are  the  retail  prices  today,  then 
examine  your  records,  and,  to  the  best  of  your  ability,  state  what 
the  retail  prices  of  the  same  articles,  sold  in  the  same  amount, 
would  have  been  just  for  four  years  previously." 

Now,  I  think  you  will  (ind  the  first  of  these  reports  bear 
date — you  cannot  find  that  here,  as  they  are  not  listed  chrono- 
logically, but  you  will  find,  I  think,  that  the  first  date  was  early 
in  December,  and  you  will  liiul  the  last  date  was  in  the  first 
days  of  March.  Taking  the  territory  into  consideration,  and 
the  fact  that  while  we  had  five  men,  one  was  substituted  for 
the  other  on  account  of  sickness  and  death  in  the  family  of  the 
one  first  assigned,  and  because  the  other  could  not  take  up  the 
work  until  some  time  later,  I  think  you  will  find  that  there  was 
less  than  an  average  of  four  men  in  the  field.  They  traveled 
from  city  to  city,  visiting  merchants  and  accomplished  this  en- 
tire investigation  and  made  their  reports  by  the  early  days  of 
March ;  in  fact,  three  of  the  investigators  com]ileted  their  inves- 
tigations in  the  latter  days  of  February. 

In  selecting  the  towns  to  be  investigated,  I  Avanted  small 
towns  or,  rather,  towns  about  which  it  could  not  be  said  that 
in  one  part  of  the  town  they  charged  one  price  and  in  another 
part  of  the  town  they  charged  another  price.  J  also  wanted  to 
select  what  are  called  "Kailroad  towns,"  so  it  could  not  be 
said  it  was  one  in  which  railroad  men  did  not  actually  use  these 
prices.  In  fact,  I  used  every  })recaution  to  ]irevent  the  report 
being  discredited. 

I  selected  twent\-nine  towns.  These  towns,  I  think  vou 
will  find,  are  towns  where  railroad  men  make  up  a  considerable 
part  of  the  jiojiulation  of  the  towns,  with  possibly  one  excep- 
tion, and  that  is  Tnttle  Kock,  Arkansas.  We  became  confused 
there,  and,  instead  of  confining  our  work  to  Argentine,  Arkan- 
sas, which  is  across  the  bridge  from  Little  Ro.^k,  we  have  re- 
ports from  both  Little  Rock  and  Argenta, — I  said  ''Argentine" 


719 

but  I  meant  "Argeiita."  The  towns  selected  were  these,  in 
alphabetical  order:  Winslow,  Arizona;  Little  liock,  Arkansas; 
Kamloops,  British  Coliinibia;  Dnnsninir,  California;  Sacra- 
mento, California:  La  Juntci,  Colorado;  Pocatello,  Idaho; 
Galesburg,  Illinois  ;  KstlH  iville,  Iowa  ;  Parsons,  Kansas;  Win- 
nipeg, Manitoba;  Breckenridge,  Minnesota;  Waseca,  Minne- 
sota; l)e  Sota,  Missouri;  Butte,  Montana ;  (Uendive,  Montana; 
Lincoln,  Nebraska ;  Albuquerque,  New  Mexico ;  Sparks,  Nevada ; 
Dickinson,  North  Dakota;  Koseburg,  Oregon;  llegina,  Sas- 
katchewan ;  Huron,  South  Dakota ;  Denison,  Texas ;  Ogden, 
Utah ;  Hillyard,  Washington ;  Taconia,  Washington ;  La  Crosse, 
Wisconsin;  and  Chej'enne,  Wyoming.  You  will  understand, 
that  I  have  read  these  names  alphabetically,  by  states,  and  that 
is  the  only  significance  that  should  be  attached  to  the  manner  in 
which  I  have  read  them.  These  towns  were  selected,  as  I  say, 
because  we  wanted  to  know  what  the  true  increase  in  cost  of 
living  had  been  for  railroad  men.  1  think  1  have  covered  the 
pur])ose  and  method  of  this  report. 

Mr.  Philli])s :  You  stated,  Mr.  Carter,  if  I  understood  you 
correctly,  the  investigators  began  their  work  in  December  or  in 
January — did  you  mean  in  DecemJier,  1913,  and  January,  1914? 

Mr.  Carter:  December,  1913,  and  closed  their  work  about 
the  1st  of  March,  1914. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  one  place  here,  on  ])age  13, — it  has  just 
caught  my  eye — the  last  colunm  of  the  table  there,  you  say 
"Increase  in  average  ])rice,  1913-1914  over  1909-1910."  T  be- 
lieve you  explained  that  these  investigations  did  not  all  begin 
on  a  certain  day,  but  you  took  the  winter  of  1909-1910  for  the 
purposes  of  coni|jarison  with  the  winter  of  1913-1914. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir.  You  might  say  the  same  three 
months  period  of  the  winter  1913-1914  compared  with  the  same 
three  months  ]^eriod  of  the  winter  1909-1910. 

The  Chairman:  Mr.  Phillips,  will  you  kindly  suspend' 
The  Board  will  take  a  recess  until  2  :30. 

(Whereupon,  at  12:30  o'clock  P.  M.,  a  recess  was  taken 
until  2:30  P.M.) 

After  Recess. 

W.  S.  CAKTl^R  was  recalled  for  further  examination  and 
having  been  previously  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 


720 

Mr.  Phillips :  Mr.  Carter,  turning  from  page  to  page  here, 
there  are  a  number  of  reports  or  report  forms.  Are  these  the 
sample  forms  in  a  measure  described  by  you  this  morning,  and 
which  were  used  in  making  your  investigations. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  and  selected  at  random.  There  may  be 
something  in  them  that  may  require  explanation.  They  were  not 
selected  for  any  specific  purpose.  I  might  say  they  were  se- 
lected, so  far  as  different  sections  of  the  country  were  con- 
cerned, and  different  subjects,  but  there  was  no  attempt  to  select 
any  specific  form. 

Mr.  Phillii»s :  These  various  reports  on  the  different  com- 
modities are  typical  of  the  numerous  reports  gathered? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  please  tuni  to  page  14,  to  the  table 
numbered  2,  beginning  there. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  And  continuing  on  following  pages.  This  is 
a  meat  table,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  That  is  the  first  derivative  table  from  the 
original  reports  on  retail  prices  of  meat. 

Mr.  Phillips:  It  shows  the  prices  at  the  different  points, 
at  the  different  periods  taken  into  consideration  in  your  in- 
vestigation ? 

Mr.  Carter:  As  quoted  from  the  original  reports.  You 
will  note  there  that  Winslow,  Arizona,  has  report  No.  1  and  No. 
2.  Jn  that  instance  the  inyestigator  interviewed  two  butchers, 
or  meat  dealers,  in  the  same  town. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  there  appear  to  be  any  similarity  in 
prices,  or  increase,  where  such  dual  investigations  were  made? 

Mr.  Carter :  Sometimes  they  differed.  Note  the  first  item 
there  in  report  No.  1,  from  Winslow,  Arizona,  shows  that  the 
price  of  sirloin  steak,  native  steer,  was  20  cents  in  the  winter 
of  1909-1910,  and  28  cents  in  the  winter  of  1913-1914,  while  report 
No.  2  from  the  same  town  shows  that  in  the  winter  of  1909-1910 
the  price  of  sirloin  steak,  native  steer  was  22  cents,  and  the  price 
in  the  winter  of  1913-1914  was  27  cents.  There  is  a  deviation 
right  there. 

Mr.  Phillips:  They  both  show  an  increase,  however,  do 
they  nott 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 


721 

Mr.  Phillips:  They  appear  to  be  about  the  same  price  in 
1914,  one  having  increased  a  little  more  than  the  other. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  that  there  is  a  general 
similarity,  although  there  are  differences.  For  instance,  you 
may  find  where  there  is  no  increase  in  meat.  If  there  is  any 
such  report,  you  will  find  it  right  there. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  the  actual  rates  reported  from  the 
different  points  and  for  the  different  kinds  of  meat,  are  set 
forth  in  this  table  in  their  entirety? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  prices  in  table  2  are  copied  from  the 
original  reports. 

Mr.  Phillips :  On  page  13  is  table  1.  Is  this  a  derivative 
table  from  table  2? 

Mr.  Carter:  Table  1  is  derived  from  table  2,  and  is  a 
sununary  of  the  information  found  in  table  2.  For  all  the  rates 
shown  in  table  2,  for  each  of  the  items  of  meat,  we  show  the 
number  of  rates  or  reports  which  go  to  make  up  the  average 
price  per  pound  quoted  in  the  summary  on  page  13. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  show  the  average  price  per  pound  for 
the  winter  of  1909-1910  in  the  second  column  of  figures,  do  you! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  the  average  price  per  pound  for  1913- 
1914  in  the  second  column  under  the  next  heading. 

Mr.  Carter :     Which  would  be  the  fourth  column  of  figures. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  in  the  last  column  you  show  the  in- 
crease in  average  price.  That  would  be  the  average  increase, 
would  it  not! 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  that  would  be  the  increase  in  the  average 
price  of  1913-1914  over  1909-1910,  showing  the  percentage  of 
increase. 

Mr.  Philli})s :  But  the  actual  prices  or  figures  setting  forth 
the  actual  cost  of  these  meats,  are  all  set  forth  in  -detail  in 
table  2! 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  these  figures,  36  per  cent  increase  in 
average  price,  35  per  cent,  34  per  cent,  for  sirloin  steak,  steer, 
heifer  and  cow,  and  the  37  per  cent,  and  the  33  per  cent,  40  per 
cent  and  26  per  cent  on  down  the  extreme  right  hand  column, 
show  the  increase  in  average  prices  for  the  year. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 


722 

Mr.  I'liillip^:  Or  for  tlic  years  In'twpoii  tlic  two  periods. 
About  a  four  year  period,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     About  a  four  year  period. 

Mr.  Pbillips:  Now,  if  you  will  turn  to  Table  4  on  pauc  '22. 
and  explain  iliis  to  us  briefly,  please? 

Mr.  Carter:  Praoticnlly  the  same  class  of  int'oniiation,  but 
it  ai)plies  to  milk. 

Mr.  Phillips:     I^  this  a  derivative  table  for  milk  on  pa^e  21  f 

Mr.  Carter:  Table  4  on  pages  22  to  25  is  the  first  deriva- 
tive table  from  the  original  reports.  Table  3  is  derived  from 
Table  4,  and  in  fact  is  a  summary  of  tiie  information  sliown  in 
Table  4. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  the  extreme  right  hand  column,  21  per  cent 
increase  in  average  price  would  apply  to  a  i)int  of  sweet  milk, 
22  per  cent  for  a  quart  of  sweet  milk,  23  for  a  half  gallon, 
24  for  a  gallon,  25  per  cent  for  a  quart  of  sour  milk,  88  per  cent 
for  a  gallon  of  sour  milk.  How  do  you  account  for  that  ai^parent 
great  increase,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Charter:  I  have  tried  to  account  for  it,  but  1  have  no 
information  upon  the  subject;  but,  I  rather  think  that  formerly 
sour  milk  was  not  used:  in  other  words,  sour  milk — I  mean  but- 
termilk and  ])ossibly  other  classes  of  sour  milk.  I  reached  the 
conclusion  by  a  study  of  the  two  that  sour  milk  was  not  used, 
perhaps,  as  extensively  four  years  ago  as  it  was  when  this 
report  was  compiled,  and  I  account  for  the  greater  increase  when 
the  buttermilk  was  not  sold  by  the  gallon,  that  is,  when  sold  by 
the  quart  in  this;  that,  they,  perhaps,  in  the  beginning,  would 
not  do  as  much  for  delivering  as  they  did  for  the  milk,  therefore, 
in  a  small  delivery  it  is  possible  it  does  not  show  as  much  of  an 
increase  as  a  delivery  of  a  gallon,  which  would  probably  indicate 
the  real  increase  of  the  value  of  the  milk  not  so  weighted  with 
the  expense  of  delivery.  I  am  just  surmising  tliat.  I  liave  no 
positive  information  on  it. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  the  following  figui'es  for  cream  show  the 
average  increase  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Mr.  Carter,  turn  to  Table  6  on  page — 

The  Chairman:  May  I  interrupt.  Do  I  understand  counsel 
for  the  railroads  to  controvert  the  proposition  by  the  other  side 


723 

tliat  there  has  been  a  material  increase  in  tlie  cost  of  liviniA'  dur- 
ing- the  past  four  years? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  sir;  not  a  material  increase,  but  we  do 
contend  tliat  the  increase  in  the  cost  of  living  is  no  greater  in 
the  ratio  of  increase  than  the  increased  earnings  of  the  men 
during  the  same  period. 

The  Chairman:  The  reason  1  asked  the  (juestion  was,  T 
thought  if  we  reached  an  agreement  it  miglit  facilitate  the  hear- 
ing as  respects  tliat  point. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  is  no  controversy  aljout  the  (piestion 
that  there  has  been  an  increase  in  the  cost  of  living,  but  we  ex- 
pect, if  that  question  becomes  material,  to  attempt  to  follow 
the  weighted  average  system  that  is  adopted  by  the  Bureau  of 
Labor.  In  this  exhibit  there  has  been  no  intention  of  carrying 
out  into  the  average,  as  I  get  it,  the  manner  in  which  these  dif- 
ferent items  would  affect  the  total  cost  of  living. 

The  Chairman:  In  that  view  of  the  matter  you  may  pro- 
ceed with  the  examination. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  I  reciuested  you  to  turn  to  Table 
2G  on  page  28.  In  this  table,  which  shows  increase  in  retail 
prices  of  one  hundred  and  eleven  articles  of  food,  in  grocers'  sun- 
dries, in  twenty-eight  western  towns,  that  continues  on  a  number 
of  pages  over  to  page  56,  I  believe.  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  you  ex- 
plained bi'iefly  this  morning,  I  think  that  you  had  listed  apples 
as  they  appear  first  in  the  table  beginning  on  page  28,  four  times, 
because  of  four  diiferent  kinds  of  apples  or  four  different  vari- 
eties. Now,  at  the  outset  vou  sav:  "Increase  in  Betail  Price 
of  111  Articles,"  have  you  counted  apples  as  four  articles  there? 

Mr.  Carter:     Every  item  is  considered  as  an  article. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then  apples  repeated  four  times  will  mean 
four  articles. 

Mr.  Carter:  You  will  note  by  referring  to  report  72,  that 
in  the  same  town,  Ben  Davis  are  30  cents  a  peck,  Johnathans  60 
cents  a  peck,  Greenings  and  Baldwins  50  cents  a  peck,  which 
shows  there  is  a  great  difference  in  the  price  of  apples,  accord- 
ing to  the  variety  of  apples. 

Mr.  Phillips:  This  method  of  classifying  your  items  of 
apples,  aj)plies  to  the  other  articles  where  you  make  a  different 
iteTn  for  the  different  articles? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 


724 

Mr.  Pbillii)s :     Have  you  actually  111  articles,  or  111  iteuis? 

Mr.  Carter:  Perlia])s  the  word  ''item"  would  be  more 
accurate.  I  have  111  ditferent  items  on  which  ] trices  are  quoted, 
as  distinct  from  any  other  item. 

Mr.  PhiHi])s:  In  these  tables,  I  believe  you  ex])lained  this 
mornin<^,  or  i)erha])S  it  was  in  connection  with  this  same  table, 
that  you  have  rei>eated  the  table  several  times  in  order  to  get 
all  of  the  cities  in — there  is  a  repetition  for  the  different  cities? 

Mr.  Carter:  On  account  of  having  111  items,  you  will  note 
that  it  takes  a  column  four  ]iages  in  lenglh  to  report  for  one 
city.  And  then  we  take  u))  another  set  of  cities,  in  tlu'  same 
manner. 

Mr.  Phillijts:  And  you  use  the  same  items  each  time.  <lo 
you.  ;Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  show  the  comparative  cost  in  ('ach  city? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  You  show  the  actual  ]n-i('es  for  the  ])urposes 
of  comparison? 

Mr.  Carter:     ^es. 

Mr.  Philli]is :  You  have  prepared  a  comparative  table  from 
this  very  large  table,  which  I  believe  appears  on  page  26 — 
Table  5 — have  you  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Pages  26  and  27. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  this  derivative  table,  Mr.  Carter,  indi- 
cate that  there  has  been  a  general  increase  in  the  cost  of  the 
items  or  articles  listed  in  your  table? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  column  next  to  the  right  shows  the  per- 
centage of  increase  1013-1914,  comy)ared  with  1909-1910.  The 
last  column  to  the  right  shows  the  items  where  there  has  been  a 
decrease  in  the  price,  that  is,  a  decrease  in  the  average  price. 

Mr.  Phillips:     An  increase  is  not  shown  in  all  cases? 

^Ir.  Carter:  1  think  there  are  eleven  exceptions  out  of  the 
one  hundred  and  eleven  items. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  Well,  Mr.  Carter,  would  it  mean  that  on 
eleven  different  articles  or  items  there  were  decreases  in  price, 
or  a  re])etition  of  tlie  same  article? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  you  will  refer  to  j^age  26,  you  will  note  four 
items  showing  a  decrease ;  they  are  of  flour.  We  first  quote  the 
price  of  V^-barrel  sack,  best  hard  wheat,  Minnesota,  per  sack; 


725 

14-barrel  sack,  best  hard  wheat,  Minnesota,  per  sack;  V«-barrel 
sack,  best  Kansas,  per  sack;  14 -barrel  sack,  best  Kansas,  per 
sack.  Those  four  decreases  refer  to  flour.  They  are  in  two 
grades  of  flour  and  sold  in  two  different  quantities.  You  will 
find  that  on  page  27  there  are  two  decreases  witli  regard  to 
sugar. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Then,  where  eleven  prices  indicate  de- 
creases, it  might  not  necessarily  mean  that  eleven  separate 
articles  show  a  decrease? 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Or  eleven  separate  commodities? 

Mr.  Carter:     No. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  the  same  is  true  of  the  articles  where 
increase  is  shown,  where  one  hundred  may  show  increases,  that 
might  not  mean  that  one  hundred  different  articles,  but  one 
hundred  as  listed  here,  show  an  increase,  and  eleven  show 
decreases? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Throughout  table  6,  from  which  this  is  de- 
rived, Mr.  Carter,  I  notice  reference  notes,  and  also  a  reference 
note  following  this  table  here.  Will  you  please  give  us  an 
explanation  of  their  meaning  and  purpose? 

Mr.  Carter:  Reference  notes  1,  2,  3,  and  4  will  be  found 
on  page  56.  In  the  original  you  will  note  that  some  columns 
have  no  entries  or  numbers.  By  referring  to  reference  note  one 
on  page  56,  you  will  note  that  in  a  considerable  nmnber  of 
reports  they  gave  prices,  per  box,  of  apples  or,  per  pound,  of 
apples.  The  schedule  called  for  '^per  peck,"  as  it  was  not 
practical  or  perhaps  advisable  to  attempt  to  arrive  at  an  average 
price  when  the  quantity  sold  was  not  the  same,  these  footnotes 
show  the  deviations  from  the  schedules,  and  where  apples  were 
quoted  by  the  box,  they  were  not  included  in  the  summary  here 
on  pages  26  and  27  but  they  were  shown  here  in  these  reference 
notes  on  pages  56  to  59.    That  applies  to  many  other  items. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Well,  now,  where  you  show  these  items  here 
listed  and  covered  by  reference  notes,  did  you  include  the  per- 
centages of  increase  here  in  reaching  your  percentages  shown  in 
table  5? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir.    I  showed  the  percentages  of  increase 


72G 

ill  tlicsc  iH'tVivinc  iK.lcs  1(11  pages  5G  to  5W,  entirely  separate  from 
tlto  siiiiiTiiarv  wliicli  ajipears  as  table  No.  5. 

Ml-.  [Miilli|)s:  Where  tliese  ap])les  hy  tiie  Ik)X,  or  other 
items  (pioted  in  an  irregniar  manner,  or  in  a  manner  different 
from  that  lollowcd  in  the  general  reports,  you  show  the  per- 
centage of  inereas<'  or  decrease  in  twice,  do  you? 

Mr.  Carter:  Wliercver  there  was  a  deviation  from  the 
schedule.  For  instance,  we  called  for  a  certain  kind  of  cheese. 
The  Canadian  reports  give  the  jirice  of  Canadian  cheese,  which 
we  did  not  include  in  our  schedule,  and  you  will  note  by  reference 
to  reference  note  No.  7,  T  think  it  is,  the  schedule  called  for 
j)rices  on  cheese,  full  cream,  Wisconsin,  i)er  |)ound.  Now,  re- 
ports 7."5,  7;j,  S'^,  JT),  100  and  lOD,  (pioted  prices  on  cheese  that 
was  not  full  cream  Wisconsin,  therefore,  instead  of  including 
that  in  the  sununary,  I  have  placed  it  back  here  in  the  reference 
notes,  showing  what  was  the  ijicrease  on  the  cheese  that  Avas 
(|Uoted.    The  same  applies  to  other  things. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  will  you  kindly  turn  to 
table  7,  begiiming  on  page  60,  under  the  caption,  "Increase  in 
Ketail  Prices  of  Shoes  in  Fifteen  Western  Towns."  What  is  the 
general  increase  in  price  of  shoes,  as  indicated  by  this  table? 

Mr.  Carter:  In  nearly  every  instance  the  dealer  in  shoes 
insisted  on  giving  the  increase  in  the  price  in  so  many  cents, 
fifteen  cents,  twenty-five  cents,  fifty  cents,  seventy -five  cents,  or 
one  dollar.    They  insisted  on  doing  it  that  way. 

For  instance,  a  pair  of  shoes  that  would  sell  in  the  winter 
of  1909-1910  for  $2.50,  in  report  118  from  Little  Rock,  Arkansas, 
the  dealer  stated  that  that  same  pair  of  shoes  had  increased 
to  $3,  and  you  will  find  that  ordinarily  that  is  the  system  they 
have  followed,  except  that  in  some  instances  they  have  reported 
an  increase  by  percentages,  of  ten  to  twenty  per  cent,  or  twenty 
to  twenty-five  per  cent,  and  so  forth. 

Mr,  Phillips:  It  shows  in  the  main  a  general  increase, 
does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  vou  compiled  any  derivative  table  from 
Table  71 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Ml-.  Phillips :  You  simply  show  within  the  table  itself  what 
the  increase  has  been? 


727 

Mr,  Carter:     Yes, 

Mr.  Phillips :  Table  8,  on  the  next  page,  page  61,  shows 
under  the  caption  "Increase  in  Wholesale  Prices  of  Materials, 
Cost  of  Labor  and  Rent,  and  Retail  Price  of  Suits  of  Men's 
Clothes  in  Thirteen  Western  Towns"',  Have  you  shown  here 
for  clothing  the  infoi-mation  contained  in  a  general  way  in 
Table  7  for  shoes? 

Mr.  Carter:  Much  more  extensively  in  detail.  The  rea- 
son I  adopted  that  table  was  that  the  dealer  in  clothing  whom 
I  asked  to  assist  me  had  stated  that  it  would  be  impossible  to 
compare  ready  made  clothing,  but  that  it  should  be  practicable 
to  ascertain  what  had  been  the  increase  on  tailor-made  cloth- 
ing, and  this  schedule  was  prepared  by  him;  and  he  said  ''If 
you  present  this  schedule  to  a  merchant  tailor  he  will  know  what 
you  mean,  and  will  be  able  to  give  you  the  information  de- 
sired. ' ' 

You  will  note  that  after  the  state  and  town  and  the  num- 
ber of  the  report  he  gives  the  increase  in  prices  on  worsted 
fabrics,  woolen  fabrics,  mohair  linings,  silk  linings,  canvas  and 
other  inside  materials,  sewing  silk,  tailors '  wages,  shop  rent  and 
complete  suits  of  clothes, 

Mr.  Phillips :  The  form  you  have  adopted  for  this  table  is 
a  little  different  from  the  others,  is  it  not? 

Mr,  Carter :  Very  much  different,  because  I  was  very  anx- 
ious to  get  something  on  clothing,  and  this  was  suggested  to  me 
as  being  the  most  practicable, 

Mr,  Phillips :  Does  the  re})ort  show  a  general  increase  for 
clothing? 

Mr,  Carter:  Yes,  some  of  the  items.  Some  of  those  col- 
umns I  think  you  will  iind  do  not  show  an  increase;  in  some  in- 
stances, perhaps,  a  decrease,  I  don't  remember.  It  has  been  a 
long  while  since  I  read  this,  ))ut  \on  will  find  no  change  in  i)rice 
in  many  instances. 

Mr,  Phillips :     Under  sewing  silk,  which  I  read  first — 

IMr.  Carter:     A  slight  decrease. 

Mr,  Phillips :  A  slight  decrease,  then,  20  per  cent  decrease. 
Sewing  silk  is  a  part  of  the  materials  that  go  into  a  suit,  is  it 
not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Sewing  thread? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes. 


728 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Pliillips:  In  the  next  column,  tailors'  wages,  would 
you  understand  from  that  there  had  heen  a  general  increase  in 
tailors'  wages? 

Mr.  Tarter:  Where  they  reported,  it  would  indicate  tliat, 
but  a  great  many  of  them  made  no  reports,  for  this  reason: 
When  we  got  to  the  snuiller  towns  we  found  that  they  did  not 
hire  any  tailors,  a  man  did  his  own  work,  and  they  could  not 
make  any  report  on  tlmt.  lie  v:as  tlie  journeyman  and  tlio  ])ro- 
prietor  combined. 

Mr.  Phillii)s:  In  the  lirst  column,  in  all  these  tables,  Mr. 
Carter,  I  notice  a  report  number.  Tliat  has  reference  only  to 
the  report  liled  by  the  investigator,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  numbers  that  T  gave  the  reports.  They 
were  not  numbered  as  received,  but,  after  they  were  all  received 
and  the  investigation  closed,  T  sorted  them  by  places,  and  then 
alphabetically  by  states,  and  then  numbered  them  from  one  to 
the  highest  number.    T  believe  it  is  177. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Will  you  turn  back  to  page  26  just  a  moment, 
please.    In  the  tirst  column  of  the  table  there — 
Mr.  Carter:     That  is  the  item  number. 
Mr.  Phillips:     Then,  in  the  first  column  next  to  the  right, 
under  ''Number  of  reports,"  does  that  refer  to  the  report  num- 
ber or  to  the  number  of  reports  received  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  On  that  we  find  first  eighteen  reports  on  Bald- 
win apples,  35  reports  on  cheese,  full  cream,  Wisconsin,  and  so 
on. 

Mr.  Phillips :     I  believe  you  stated  this  morning,  did  you 
not,  that  those  original  rei)orts  would  be  filed  for  the  reference 
and  information  of  the  Board? 
Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips  :     Now,  if  you  will  turn,  Mr.  Carter,  to  the  next 
page,  62,  and  Table  9,  showing  retail  prices  of  fuel  in  twenty 
eight  towns.     Do  your  reports  indicate  a  general  increase  in  tlie 
cost  of  fuel :' 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir.  The  next  to  the  last  column  shows 
increases,  the  last  column  shows  decreases.  I  think  with  the  ex- 
ception of  three  they  all  sliow  an  increase.  Soft  coal  at  Winslow, 
Arizona,  decreased  one  dollar.  You  will  note  that  in  this  table 
percentages  are  not  inserted  to  show  the  increase  and  decrease. 


729 

It  is  the  amount,  for  instanco,  twoiity  coiits  a  ton  or  a  dollar  a 
ton. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Perhai)s  coal  is  not  as  necessary  at  Winslow 
as  it  would  be  at  Breckenridge,  Minnesota,  or  some  ])lace  like 
that  at  this  time  of  year.  Do  you  show  any  cost  for  wood,  Mr. 
Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:  AVIicrovcr  tlic  dealers  that  were  interviewed 
also  dealt  in  wood,  we  found  that  wood  was  used  for  fuel  in 
those  localities  or  towns,  and  to  carry  out  the  purpose  of  the 
investigation,  we  gave  the  change  in  price  of  wood  as  a  fuel. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Wood  also  shows  a  general  increase,  does  it, 
in  most  cases? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips:  What  is  Table  10,  beginning  at  the  bottom 
of  page  63,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:  Table  10  is  a  reference  table  for  all  others. 
It  gives  information  on  which  tables  and  deductions  are  based. 
For  instance,  the  first  column  shows  the  number  of  reports  as 
we  find  in  the  volume  of  reports.  The  second  column  shows  the 
date  of  the  report ;  the  third  column  shows  town  and  state.  The 
fourth  column  gives  the  names  of  the  retail  dealers  completing 
those  schedules,  and  this  table  is  divided  by  subjects,  as  meats 
and  lard  is  one  table,  milk  is  another,  groceries  and  grocer's 
sundries.  Reports  on  prices  of  shoes,  on  tailor  made  clothing 
and  on  the  price  of  fuel.  I  should  like  to  say,  however,  that  the 
name  quoted  as  a  retail  dealer  was  the  name  signed  to  the 
affidavit,  and  in  order  that  these  names  might  be  identified,  if 
we  so  desired,  I  have  reference  notes  here.  For  instance,  Report 
number  1  was  sworn  to  by  L.  W.  Quinlan.  Turn  to  the  reference 
note  for  Table  8  and  you  mil  find  that  Mr.  Quinlan  was  the 
manager  of  Babbitt  Brothers  Mercantile  Company. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  said  Table  8.  Did  you  mean  T-able  10, 
Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:  Table  10.  You  will  find  that  in  many  in- 
stances the  men  who  signed  affidavits  were  managers  of  the 
departments  in  which  these  items  were  sold. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  this  morning, 
Mr.  Carter,  that  before  any  statement  was  made  by  these  dealers 
or  by  representatives  of  these  firms  that  they  were  notified  they 
would  be  required  to  make  an  affidavit  to  such  statement? 


730 

Mr.  ('alter:  1  am  (juite  sure  in  every  instance  when  they 
were  re«|iiested  to  fiirnisli  tliis  iuforination,  it  was  e\i)hiined  to 
them  that  it  wt)iil(l  i>ioi)al»ly  he  used  in  such  a  manner  that  it 
cuiirlit  to  l»e  sworn  to.  If  I  remember  correctly,  there  are  only 
two  reports  not  sworn  to. 

Mr.  Pliiilips:     AVhv  were  thev  not  sworn  to? 

Mr.  ('artel':  1  don't  rememlH'r.  Ft  seems  to  me  the  cor- 
resi)ondence  indicates  that  tlie  investiiifator  conld  not  get  the 
dealer  and  the  Notary  Public  together. 

Mr.  P}iillii)s:  ( )n  page  ^7,  Mr.  Carter,  is  Tabh-  11.  What 
is  shown  by  this  table? 

Mr.  Carter:  This  is  simply  a  table  for  information.  It 
shows  in  what  states  the  different  reports  by  subjects  and  by 
numbers  may  be  found.  Following  that  the  names  of  the  inves- 
tigators and  the  reports  made  by  each.  Following  that  you  will 
find  several  ]iages  devoted  to  ])ersonal  interviews  with  retail 
dealers  and  fpiotations  from  interviews  with  retail  dealers,  as 
shown  in  these  reports. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Are  these  reports  from  investigations  of 
retail  dealers  in  the  language  of  the  dealers? 

^Ir.  Carter:  Sometimes,  and  sometimes  in  the  language 
of  the  in\  estigator.  The  investigators  were  instructed  to  ascer- 
tain what  dealers  blamed  for  the  higher  prices  of  the  articles 
(pioted.  For  instance,  we  have  here  in  the  first  subdivision  on 
l)age  67,  some  investigation  with  regard  to  the  wholesale  prices 
and  causes.  I  think  most  of  the  meat  dealers  })articularly,  in 
fact  nearly  all  dealers,  say  that  on  account  of  the  wholesale  cost 
of  these  items  they  have  been  compelled  to  increase  the  retail 
price. 

Another  subdivision,  on  page  ()8,  shows  a  claim  that  the 
retail  prices  have  increased  because  of  higher  rents,  and  they 
cite  the  causes. 

The  Chairman:     Because  of  what! 

Mr.  Carter:     Higher  rents  of  business  localities. 

Tn  the  third  item  they  attribute  the  increase  in  retail  prices 
to  the  higher  wages  paid  employes. 

Then  again,  investigators  were  instructed  to  ascertain,  if 
possible,  the  usual  amount  of  each  article  purchased  by  locomo- 
tive enginemen.  The  replies  are  here,  or  rather  the  interviews 
are  liore 


731 

Then,  again,  on  page  71,  we  have  an  exact  reproduction  of 
what  they  said  about  these  different  matters.  In  some  instances 
it  does  not  appear  in  the  affidavit,  because  the  affidavit  usually 
is  limited  to  the  prices  quoted:  but  you  will  find  these  cjuotations 
from  the  reports  of  investigators  as  to  what  was  said.  1  tiiink 
the  nature  of  the  quotation  will  largely  indicate  that.  For  in- 
stance, at  the  bottom  of  the  first  column  on  ]tage  71,  is  a  (juota- 
tion  from  Report  No.  24,  which  says: 

''I  am  advised  bv  Mr.  W.  S.  Gulev  that  there  has  been  a  gen- 
eral  advance  in  the  wholesale  price  of  meats  of  all  (jualities," 
and  so  forth.  That  shows  that  he  is  simply  reproducing  what 
Mr.  Guley  told  him,  and  that  part  is  not  sworn  to  by  the  dealer; 
but  in  some  instances  these  statements  appear  as  a  part  of  the 
affidavit. 

Mr.  Phillips:  This  report  No.  24  would  show  clear1\  whore 
it  was  made  and  by  whom,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  By  turning  to  page  67,  you  will  find  that 
report  No.  24  is  from  Missouri,  and  that  it  refers  to  meat  and 
lard. 

Mr.  Phillips:  The  report  made  by  Mr.  Guley,  and  to  which 
he  swore,  was  to  show  the  increase  in  prices  of  meat  and  lard  at 
that  point,  was  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And  these  quotations,  which  cover  several 
pages  here,  are  sometimes  in  the  language  of  the  dealer,  and 
sometimes  in  the  language  of  the  investigator  who  (lueried  the 
dealer  and  gave  his  reply? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  I  think  that  the  information  given  by 
the  dealers  as  to  the  usual  amount  of  articles  purchased  monthly 
by  locomotive  enginemen  is  of  considerable  concern  and  interest, 
because  it  has  always  been  difficult  to  as,certain  what  that  is. 

I  understand,  the  government  has  made  certain  investiga- 
tions, but  usually  the  government  investigators  have  gone  into 
the  mills  where  the  most  recent  importations  of  labor  may  be 
found,  and  where  the  expense  of  living  is  not  very  high,  and 
they  have  there  found  that  a  very  low  expense  will  keep  a  family 
of  five  for  a  year,  an  expense  that  is  far  below  the  standard  of 
the  American  working  man  as  set  forth  in  political  campaigns. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  will  you  turn  again  to  page  11,  please. 
On  this  page  under  the  caption  of  "  Wbat  has  been  the  incivased 


732 

cost  of  living"  appear  several  paragraphs  which  I  take  it  are 
vour  deductions  from  the  tables  contained  here? 

Mr.  Carter:  With  permission  I  wonld  like  to  read  it.  It  is 
only  slightly  over  half  a  page. 

''Tables  1  and  2  include  1,329  reports  on  twenty  classifica- 
tions of  butchers'  meats  and  show  that  the  increase  in  the  aver- 
age retail  prices  of  such  meats  have  equalled  approximately  one- 
third  of  the  retail  prices  paid  during  the  winter  of  1909-10.  If 
the  average -expenditure  for  meats  by  families  of  railroad  em- 
ployes in  the  winter  of  1909-10  was  $10  per  month,  it  may  be 
truly  said  that  during  the  winter  of  1913-14  the  increase  in  such 
expenditures  average  $3.33  per  month,  or  $40  per  year;  or,  as  is 
probably  the  case  with  families  of  railroad  employes  assigned 
to  the  lower  paid  positions,  they  ate  less  meat,  or  inferior  meat, 
during  the  winter  of  1913-14  than  in  1909-10." 

Those  deductions  are  made  not  only  on  the  actual  increases 
in  prices,  but  on  the  estimates  made  by  the  dealers  as  to  how 
much  meat  was  purchased  by  the  average  family,  and  so  forth, 
all  of  which  may  be  found  in  detail  in  the  latter  portion  of  the 
exhibit. 

'' Tables  3  and  4  include  229  reports  on  milk  and  cream 
(from  one-half  pint  to  one  gallon  sales)  and  show  there  have 
been  increases  in  retail  prices  from  20.81  per  cent  to  88.87  per 
cent  during  tlie  period  covered  by  this  report.  One  retail  dealer 
says,  *  The  average  railroad  family  of  five  persons  will  use  three 
pints  of  milk  daily'. 

''Tables  5  and  6  include  6,444  reports  on  111  items  of  food 
and  sundries  usually  purchased  by  families  of  railroad  employes 
from  grocers.  These  reports  show  an  increase  of  from  0.54  per 
cent  for  Fels  Naptha  soap,  to  44.82  per  cent  for  beef  (corned 
in  cans,  best  grade,  No.  1  cans). 

For  only  eleven  items  of  the  111  are  decreases  in  retail 
prices  shown.  What  has  been  the  average  increase  of  monthly 
expenditures  by  families  of  railroad  employes  for  food  and  sun- 
dries purchased  from  grocers  cannot  be  accurately  determined, 
but  some  grocers  have  reported  that  grocery  bills  of  such  famil- 


733 

ies  were  from  $4  to  $8  per  month  higher  in  the  winter  of  1913-14 
than  in  1909-10. 

''Table  7  includes  reports  for  six  classifications  of  shoes 
and  shows  that  retail  prices  have  greatly  increased  during  the 
four-year  period.  Retail  prices  of  shoes  have  increased  50  cents 
per  pair,  according  to  42  reports.  The  increase  per  pair  has 
been  $1,  state  29  reports.  Three  reports  state  the  increase  has 
been  75  cents  per  pair,  three  state  25  cents,  and  one  states  15 
cents.  Others  report  from  121/2  per  cent  to  25  per  cent  increase. 
According  to  statements  of  retail  dealers,  the  wearing  qualities 
of  shoes  have  depreciated,  and  thus,  the  actual  increase  in  cost 
of  shoes  is  greater  than  the  prices  indicate. 

''Table  8  shows  that  the  prices  of  men's  clothing  made  by 
tailors  have  increased  from  $2.50  to  $5  per  suit,  and  from  15 
per  cent  to  20  per  cent,  during  the  four  years  covered  by  this 
report. 

' '  Table  9  includes  56  reports  on  different  fuels,  45  of  which 
show  material  increases  in  retail  prices,  4  show  decreases  and  7 
show  no  change." 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  the  deductions  made  here  are 
your  own  deductions  from  the  tables  contained  in  the  exhibit? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  sir,  and  I  think  that  perhaps  the  most  en- 
lightening and  perhaps  the  most  interesting  part  of  these  reports 
are  these  interviews  and  quotations  from  dealers  with  regard 
to  the  amounts  purchased  in  the  different  periods  and  how  the 
increase  in  price  has  affected  the  amounts  i^m'chased.  For  in- 
stance, you  will  find  dealers  will  not  hesitate  to  say  that  where, 
four  years  ago,  the  expensive  cuts  of  meat  were  purchased  by  a 
family,  the  same  family  is  now  cutting  down  expenses  as  much 
as  possible  b}^  buying  the  cheaper  cuts  of  meat.  You  will  find 
others  that  sav  that  families  are  not  buving  as  much  meat  as 
they  did,  and  so  on. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Without  again  referring  to  the  tables  or 
going  into- any  detail,  does  it  appear  that  the  increases  for  the 
cheaper  cuts  of  meat  are  about  the  same  as  they  are  for  the 
higher  grade  cuts  of  meat? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  and  no.  In  some  instances,  yes.  Now,  we 
will  take  chuck  roast,  on  page  13.  That  has  an  increase,  for 
some  items,  more  than  rib  roast;  and  again,  if  you  will  refer  to 


734 

otlMT  items  in  tlie  same  talile,  you  will  iiiid  just  the  reverse  is 
true,  that  it  is  the  iiiirli  priced  cuts  of  uieat  that  have  advanced. 
1  do  not  tliink  there  is  mucli  to  be  ascertained  from  a  comi)arisou 
between  the  (jualities  of  meats;  it  seems  that  they  increased 
witliout  any  apparent  reason,  some  more  tlian  others. 

Mr.  ]'liillii)s:  T  un<lerstood  you  to  say,  and  from  these  tables 
I  take  it  that  these  inquiries  were  nuide  and  com])leted  some  time 
early  in  tlu»  year  1914? 

Mr.  ( \-uter:  They  were  com]3leted  about  the  first  of  March, 
11»14.  Von  will  understand  tliat  those  reports  were  sent  in  to  me 
just  as  tiiey  were  completed  ])y  the  investigators.  They  did  not 
hold  them  until  the  end  of  the  investiiiation,  but  they  sent  tlu^ui 
in  to  nie  as  they  were  completed. 

Mr.  I*liillips:  Do  you  know  whether  tiiere  has  been  any 
change  in  conditions  and  jn-ices  on  these  different  commodities 
since  that  time? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  have  not  made  an  investigation,  but  I  think 
tliere  has  been  a  considerable  increase  since  this  investigation 
was  made  on  which  this  is  based,  but  I  liave  not  attempted  to 
make  any  investigation  as  to  the  increased  cost  of  articles  since 
the  time  covered  by  this  report.  1  am  (juite  sure,  however,  that 
some  of  the  items  where  decreases  are  shown,  for  instance,  flour, 
would  iu)w  show  a  great  increase;  but  this  report  is  based  upon 
a  comparison  of  the  retail  prices  of  the  winter  1913-14  and  the 
winter  of  ]!)()!>-! 0,  and  has  nothing  to  do  witli  the  increased  prices 
since  that  time. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  attiibute  any  increases  of  the  recent 
months  to  tin'  unusual  conditions  in  Europe,  "war  prices,"  com- 
monlv  called? 

Mi-.  ( 'arter:  T  think  that  the  war  has  contributed  greatly  to 
tlie  in<'rease  in  the  ])rices  of  food;  but  T  think  tliere  is  another 
reason,  and  T  think  ])erhai)s  that  has  been  covered  to  a  great 
extent  by  stat(Mnents  of  people  who  ought  to  be  versed  on  the 
subject.  For  instance,  it  is  said  that  meat  never  will  again  be 
cheap,  not  as  cheap  as  it  was  before  the  war  prices  prevailed, 
because  there  is  a  gradual  decrease  in  the  raising  of  cattle;  that 
is,  in  proportion  to  the  increase  of  tlie  ]>opulation.  but  that  is 
only  speculative. 

Mr.  Phillip.^:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  you  make  certain  deduc- 
tions here  and  also  express  your  opinion  to  a   limited  extent. 


735 

Were  your  deductions  made  as  to  what  is  shown  in  these  tables 
and  your  opinion  formed  without  regard  to  tlie  present  high  or 
"war  prices"  to  which  you  refer? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  has  no  reference  to  any  prices  since  the 
date  of  the  report,  and  I  think  you  will  thid  that  the  last  investi- 
gator completed  his  assigimient  of  towns  on  tlie  4th  of  March. 
I  don't  remember  exactly. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  pleases,  it  was  previously 
stated  that  we  would  introduce  here,  for  reference  and  informa- 
tion, the  original  rejiorts,  and  we  will  be  glad  to  have  them  so 
introduced. 

The  Chairman:     You  may  offer  them  for  that  ]»urpose. 

Mr.  Carter:     And  the  original  affidavits. 

Mr.  Phillips :     They  are  there. 

(The  documents  were  delivered  to  the  Secretary  of  the 
Board  but  not  marked  in  evidence.) 

Mr.  Phillips:  Just  another  question,  Mr.  Carter;  in  your 
explanatory  statement  this  morning,  in  connection  with  this  Ex- 
hibit 9  and  its  purpose,  and  tlie  reason  that  led  you  to  make  such 
an  investigation,  I  understood  you  to  say  that  in  1910  an  increase 
of  15  cents  per  day  had  been  granted  to  locomotive  tiremen  in 
the  western  country  on  account  of  increased  cost  of  living.  Is 
that  correct? 

Mr.  Carter :  That  is  correct.  1  want  to  say,  however,  that 
it  does  not  appear  in  the  language  of  the  Award ;  but,  as  usual, 
disputes  arose  over  what  the  Award  meant,  resulting  in  a  con- 
vening of  the  Arbitration  Board  to  interpret  their  own  Award. 
Our  Arbitrator,  or,  rather,  the  Arbitrator  that  had  been  se- 
lected by  the  Firemen  to  represent  their  interests  in  the  Arbi- 
tration, and  the  Arbitrator  selected  by  the  railroads,  to  repre- 
sent the  interests  of  the  railroads,  and  the  Chairman  of  the 
Board,  the  neutral  arbitrator,  had  an  interchange  of  correspond- 
ence as  to  what  was  meant  by  the  award.  I  have  here  a  letter, 
addressed  to  our  arbitrator,  from  wliich  I  will  quot«^: 

"Some  two  weeks  ago  I  received  a  letter  froui  Mr.  Scott 
which  I  unfortunatelj^  have  not  before  me,  making  a  request  for 
my  understanding  of  the  meaning  of  Section  'b'  of  the  Chicago 
Arbitration   Award,  to  which  I  r<»plie(l,  and  as  T  liave  a  copy 


736 

of  my  letter  to  him,  am  ahlo  to  quote  to  you  as  follows  from 
that  letter: 

"'The  allowance  of  15  cents  increase  applies  to  all  oil 
burning  locomotives  regardless  of  size  or  class  of  service  (ex- 
cept the  Mallet  type).  In  other  words,  tiremen  running  on  oil 
burning  engines  of  whatever  size  or  class  of  sei*vice  (except 
Mallet  type),  receive  only  15  cents  increase,  which  is  based  en- 
tirely upon  the  increased  cost  of  living.'  " 

And  our  arbitrator  continues: 

"Of  course,  this  is  my  interpretation  and,  as  you  will  re- 
member, is  in  accord  with  my  theory  expressed  in  our  confer- 
ence, that  we  should  allow  15  cents  straight  through  to  firemen 
on  all  locomotives,  regardless  of  Avhether  they  fired  with  oil  or 
coal  or  of  the  size  or  class  of  service  (except  the  Mallet  type) ; 
this  15  cent  increase  being  based  entirely  upon  the  increased 
cost  of  living." 

The  Chairman:     AVho  are  you  quoting  from? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  am  quoting  from  the  Chairman  of  the  Arbi- 
tration Board  that  disposed  of  the  firemen's  western  case  in 
1910.  I  em])hasized  that  this  morning  and  prepared  this  report 
and  shall  expect,  at  the  proper  time,  to  show  that  the  increased 
productive  efficiency,  the  increased  responsibility  and  the  in- 
creased labors  from  1907  to  1910;  or,  for  that  matter,  for  any 
other  period,  were  not  considered  by  the  Arbitration  of  1910 
in  reaching  their  award,  except  that,  for  firemen  on  coal  burning 
locomotives,  in  freight  service;  or,  rather,  in  other  than  pas- 
senger service,  they  received  another  fifteen  cents  increase, 
which  may  be  attributed  to  the  matters  referred  to. 

Mr.  Phillips:     That  is  all. 

CROSS  EXAMINATION. 

Ml-.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  in  1910  before  the  Board  of  Arbi- 
tration, there  were  presented  and  argued,  increased  labor,  in- 
creased responsibility,  increased  productive  efficiency,  were 
there  not? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Much  the  same  general  argument  as  has  been 
presented  here? 


737 

Mr.  Carter :     And  as  will  be  presented. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes.  And  the  award,  you  say,  makes  no 
reference  to  the  basis  on  which  any  particular  item  was  al- 
lowed or  disallowed  or  any  conclusion  reached? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  it  states  specifically  that  it  was  entirely — 

Mr.  Sheean :     The  award  ? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  not  the  award. 

Mr.  Sheean :  This  is  a  personal  letter  written  by  one  mem- 
ber of  this  Board,  which  made  this  public  conclusion,  to  whom! 

Mr.  Carter :  To  the  member  of  the  Arbitration  Board  that 
had  been  selected  by  the  firemen. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  no  part  of  tlie  records  of  that  pro- 
ceeding, is  itf 

Mr.  Carter :     No  part  of  the  records  of  that  proceeding. 

Mr.  Sliea :  And  no  announcement  is  made  in  connection 
with  the  Award  as  to  what  reasons  induced  or  persuaded  the 
Board  to  make  the  Award  it  did,  as  to  any  item  or  any  number 
of  items  f 

Mr.  Carter:     Not  in  the  language  of  the  Award. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Or  in  anything  that  is  filed  as  a  part  of  the 
official  proceedings  which  terminated  with  the  Award  or  of 
which  the  Award  forms  a  part? 

Mr.  Carter :  Well,  I  don 't  know  w^hether  this  would  be  con- 
sidered official  or  not;  but  I  am  sure  that  it  liad  the  same  effect 
as  though  it  were  official — it  stuck. 

Mr.  Sheean:  ^Hiat  I  mean,  Mr.  Carter,  and  all  I  mean,  is 
that  there  is  not  in  the  proceedings  which  led  up  to  the  Award, 
or  in  the  Award  itself,  any  statement  of  the  reasons  which  per- 
suaded the  Board  to  make  a  finding,  on  any  particular  item  or 
claim? 

Mr.  Carter :  The  Award  was  very  brief.  It  simply  stated 
the  increases  allowed. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  letter  from  which  you  quote  is  not 
filed  with  or  made  any  part  of  the  proceedings  in  the  arbitra- 
tion proceeding? 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir,  that  is,  not  filed  in  the  court ;  it  is  filed 
with  the  arbitrators. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Filed  with  the  arbitration  proceedings? 
Mr.   Carter:     It  is  not  filed  as  an  official  governmental 
record;  it  is  an  official  rocoid  of  the  arlutrators. 


738 

Mr.  Sbot-an:  Well,  as  a  part  of  the  record  in  that  ai'bi- 
t ration  proceeding? 

Mr.  Carter:  Not  in  the  court  record;  but  in  the  files  of 
the  arbitrators. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  as  to  this  Exhibit  number 
9,  I  think  from  what  you  said  preliminarily  you  are  familiar 
with  the  investigation  conducted  by  the  Bureau  of  La))or  with 
reference  to  the  cost  of  living  from  year  to  year. 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes.  I  will  have  another  exhibit  on  it  in  a 
few  minutes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     You  will  have? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  next  exhibit  will  be  from  what  you  are 
rea<ling 

Mr.  Sheean:     From  the  Bureau  of  Labor? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  From  the  investigation  conducted  by  the  Bu- 
reau of  Labor  among  a  great  many  families,  certain  deductions 
have  been  arrived  at  as  to  the  relative  importance  of  certain 
items  of  food  entering  into  the  cost  of  living,  or  the  cost  of  food. 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  sir,  I  am  quite  sure  that  it  does. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  have  not,  in  any  of  the  tabulations  which 
you  have  made  here,  attempted  to  follow  any  formula  as  to  the 
relative  importance  or  unimportance  in  the  actual  cost  of  food 
of  these  111  items? 

Mr.  Carter :  Not  on  the  tabular  statement,  but  in  the  state- 
ment in  the  back  part  of  the  report  you  ^vill  find  what  has  been 
said  by  dealers  upon  that  subject. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Turn,  Mr.  Carter,  to  page  11  of  your  exhibit, 
in  which  you  say  "in  only  eleven  items  of  the  111  are  decreases 
in  the  retail  prices  shown."  Now,  by  turning  to  page  26  and 
page  27  of  this  exhiltit,  those  eleven  items  are  there  set  forth, 
are  they  not? 

Mr.  Carter :     Ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Of  the  eleven  items  which  show  decreases, 
four  of  those  items  are  in  the  cost  of  flour,  are  they  not,  l^eing 
all  of  the  items  of  flour  as  to  which  you  made  inquiry  f 

Mr.  Carter :     Four  of  the  eleven. 

Mr.  Sheean :  One  of  the  eleven  is  the  cost  of  potatoes,  as 
to  which  you  made  inquiry  in  groups  of  three? 


739 

Mr.    Carter:     The    cost    of    northern  rural  potatoes,  not 
northern  Biirbanks  or  early  Ohios.    They  show  an  increase. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  said,  of  three  classes  of  potatoes,  one  shows 
a  decrease? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Of  two  classes  of  table  salt  as  to  which  you 
made  inquiry,  one  shows  a  decrease  f 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Of  the  three  out  of  four  items  of  sugar,  as 
to  which  you  made  inquiry,  a  decrease  is  shown? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  And  the  only  item  of  tobacco  as  to  which  your 
inquiry  was  made,  shows  a  decrease? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  in  the  eleven  items  showing  de- 
creases, there  are  all  the  items  of  flour,  all  the  items  of  sugar — 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  not  all  the  items  of  sugar. 

Mr.  Sheean :  How  many  items  of  sugar  did  you  make  in- 
quiry about? 

Mr.  Carter:     Eastern  granulated — 

Mr.  Sheean :     Then  three  out  of  four — 

Mr.  Carter:  Let  me  explain.  Eastern  granulated,  per 
pound,  and  Eastern  granulated,  per  25-pound  sack,  shows  an 
increase. 

Mr.  Sheean :     A  decrease  you  mean,  do  you  not! 

Mr.  Carter:  Shows  a  decrease,  as  did  sugar,  light  C,  per 
pound.    Sugar,  standard  powdered,  was  increased. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Three  out  of  four  grades  of  sugar  as  to  which 
you  made  inquiry,  show  a  decrease. 

Mr.  Carter :  You  will  understand  that  Eastern  granulated 
is  the  same  whether  sold  in  a  sack  or  by  the  pound. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Both  of  those  show  decreases,  don't  they? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  sir,  whether  sold  by  the  sack  or  by  the 
pound,  they  show  a  decrease. 

Mr.  Sheean:     As  to  all  of  the  items  of  sugar  as  to  which 
you  made  inquiry  then,  with  the  exception  of  standard  ])owdered 
»ugar,  advances  were  shown? 
Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that,  in  making  up  the  importance  to  the 
man  who  is  paying  the  grocery  bill,  the  eleven  items  showing 


740 

decreases  may  be  equal  to  or  greater  tlian  the  one  hundred  items 
which  show  increases? 

Mr.  Carter:     It   is  ])Ossih]e      JJe  nii^ilit   not  purciiase  any- 

tliing  else. 

Mi-.  Slieean  :  l\n-  instance,  in  the  talnilatiou  here,  just  take 
au  extreme  case,  the  weight  or  the  real  importance  of  a  decrease 
in  tlie  price  of  floui-  as  compared  witli  an  increase  in  the  ])rice 
of  wahuits.  No.  I  California,  soft  shell. 

Mr.  Carter:  This  exhibit  is  simply  a  report  on  prices  with- 
out regard  to  tlie  amount  consumed,  just  as  the  other  exhibit 
was  on  rates  witiiout  regard  to  the  amoimt  of  earnings. 

.Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  the  weighted  index  which  is  gen- 
erally made  use  of  by  the  Department  of  Labor  in  determining 
tile  relative  importance  to  the  man  who  is  buying  food  for  con- 
sumption, was  not  applied  by  you  to  any  of  the  details  here  in- 
volved ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Just  how  important  or  unimportant  to  the 
wage  earner  the  items  of  milk,  butter,  sugar,  flour  and  so  forth 
mav  be,  vou  made  no  effort  to  follow  out. 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir.  I  want  to  modify  that  last  statement. 
We  did  attempt  to  get  up  a  budget,  but  we  found  it  impractic- 
able. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Did  you  also  attempt  to  apply  the  budget 
which  the  United  States  Federal  Authorities  adopted  in  their 
investigation  of  the  cost  of  living? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

^Ir.  Sheean:     That  was  perfectly  feasible,  was  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  Probably  might  have  been,  but  understand 
that  this  report  was  gotten  up  before  we  ever  attempted  to  get 
up  any  rei)ort  on  the  government  statistics. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  mean,  that  having  obtained  this  informa- 
tion which  you  have  there,  the  application  of  the  weighted  index 
which  the  P>ureau  of  Labor  makes  use  of,  would  be  a  compara- 
tively easy  matter  to  make  to  the  information  which  you  have 
assem])led  ? 

Mr.  Carter :     I  think  not,  for  this  reason. 

Mr.  Sheean:     For  what  reason? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  you  will  find  the  class  of  labor  that 
they  investigated  was  not  a  class 


'     ^  741 

Mr.  Sheean:     I  did  not  mean  that,  Mr.  Carter.     I  asked 

you  whether  or  not  the  application 1  did  not  want  to  get  into 

any  debate  as  to  whether  the  Federal  authorities  were  right  or 
wrong  in  arriving  at  the  weighted  index  which  they  have 
adopted ;  all  I  wanted  to  ask  you  about  was,  whether  or  not  there 
was  any  real  difficulty  in  applying  the  weighted  index  which 
they  have  adopted  to  the  facts  elicited  by  your  report? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  will  say  yes.  If  j'^ou  want  me  to  explain,  I 
will  tell  you  why. 

Mr.  Sheean :     All  right,  explain. 

Mr.  Carter :  In  the  Government  investigation  you  will  note 
that  the  expenses,  per  family,  are  very  low.  In  discussing  the 
matter  with  Mr.  Croxton,  who  had  charge  of  that  immediate 
work,  he  advised  me  that  this  investigation  was  made  largely 
of  mill  employes,  and  largely  of  men  who  were  working  in  those 
mills.  I  understand  they  were  men  who  probably  send  a  large 
part  of  their  earnings  back  to  the  "Old  Country,"  and  I  asked 
Mr.  Croxton — I  said,  "Would  that  be  fair!"  He  said:  "That  is 
the  investigation  we  conducted."  Any  weighted  index  based 
upon  that  class  of  labor  would  be  very  unfair  to  what  we  have 
been  taught  to  believe  is  American  labor.  For  instance,  I  un- 
derstand that 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  these  reasons  that  you  are  giving 
me  are  not  reasons  why  the  weighted  index,  whether  right  or 
wrong,  cannot  be  mathematically  applied  to  your  investigation"? 

Mr.  Carter :     Why  it  should  not  be  applied. 

Mr.  Sheean :  My  question  was  not  why  that  should  not  be 
applied.  I  told  you  I  did  not  want  to  debate  the  propriety  or 
impropriety  of  the  conclusions  reached  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor ; 
but,  I  did  ask  you  whether  or  not  there  was  any  difficulty  in 
applying  that  index,  whether  it  was  right  or  wrong,  to  the  infor- 
mation which  vou  have  here? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  would  say  there  would  be  no  difficulty  of 
applying  it  if  it  was  the  purpose  to  have  a  misleading  result. 

Mr.  Sheean :  What  you  are  questioning,  Mr.  Carter,  is  the 
propriety  of  applying  the  weighted  index  which  the  Bureau  of 
Labor  has  arrived  at,  as  a  result  of  the  investigation  of  some 
twelve  thousand  families,  to  the  wage  earners  engaged  in  this 
particular  line? 


742 

Mr.  Cartt'i-:  1  would  say  that  Avould  be  very  unfair  to  the 
wage  earners  »'nj;aj?ed  in  tliis  particidar  line. 

Mr.  Shccaii :  Mr.  Carter,  isn't  there,  in  that  weighted  index 
to  which  you  refer,  greater  importance  given  to  the  item  of  fresh 
beef  than  to  any  other  item  in  the  weighted  index  which  the  Gov- 
ernment authorities  have  gotten  upf 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  not  the  government  l)udget  consist  of 
the  items  of  fresh  beef,  fresh  hog  products,  salt  hog  products, 
poultry,  eggs,  milk,  butter,  lard,  sugar,  flour,  meal  and  potatoes? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  kSheemi:  And  is  there  anything  in  the  weighted  index 
and  the  items  that  are  there  used,  that  would  exclude  your  mak- 
ing use,  in  a  weighted  manner,  of  these  items  in  the  information 
you  obtained? 

Mr.  Carter:  If  you  want  accurate  results,  yes.  1  am  going 
to  say  that  if  applied  to  your  expense,  it  would  be  quite  different 
from  what  the  facts  would  show. 

Mr.  IShiH'an:  As  to  the  relative  importance  of  one  of  these 
items  as  compared  with  the  other? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Then,  since  we  have  diverted  this  into  a  dis- 
cussion of  its  propriety,  in  what  way  would  you  change  it? 
Would  you  increase  the  importance  of  meat  as  against  the  im- 
portance of  butter,  oi-  would  you  increase  the  importance  of  but- 
ter as  weighted  in  comparison  with  meat? 

Mr.  Carter :  Without  having  any  definite  information  upon 
the  subject.  I  think  the  earning  capacity  of  the  American  citizen 
or  would-be  citizen  has  much  to  do  with  the  character  of  food 
that  he  purchases.  For  instance,  an  engineer  on  a  high-paid  run 
might  aspire  to  have  honey  in  the  comb.  I  doubt  very  much 
whether  the  latest  importation,  earning  very  low  wages  in  the 
steel  mill,  would  ever  have  ambition  to  eat  honey  at  all. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  av hat  item  is  there  in  the  tabula- 
tion which  you  have  assembled  at  pages  26  and  27  which  does 
not  legitimately  fall  within  the  items  which  the  Bureau  of  Labor 
uses?  You  have  undertaken  no  tabulation  as  to  honey  in  the 
comb,  have  you  ? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :    What  article  is  there  on  pages  26  and  27  that 


743 

does  not  properly  fall  under  one  or  the  other  heads  of  the 
weighted  index  which  the  Federal  authorities  make  use  off 

Mr.  Carter :  1  have  not  said  they  do  not  properly  fall  with- 
in the  index,  but  1  have  said  I  did  not  think  that  an  index  of  per- 
centages as  to  the  amount  of  money  spent  for  potatoes  would  be 
the  same  index  as  for  a  person  who  is  earning  more  money. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  am  not  talking  about  the  money.  I  am 
talking  about  the  relative  importance,  in  the  family  budget,  of 
the  one  item  as  compared  with  tlie  other.  Do  you  criticise  the 
proportions  in  tliis  budget  between  butter  and  meat,  or  between 
what  other  items? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  liave  not  criticised  it,  because  I  have  not 
attempted  to  apply  it ;  but  I  have  said — 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  have  given  us  certain  reasons  as  to  why 
you  refuse  to  apply  it.  Can  you  tell  me  in  what  respect  it  is  that 
you  consider  the  index  unsound? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  have  said  that  a  budget  would  depend  al- 
most entirely  upon  the  earnings  of  the  provider  for  that  family. 
I  imagine  that  your  budget  and  my  budget  would  be  entirely 
different  from  that  of  a  man  working  in  the  steel  mill.  There- 
fore, to  say  that  our  living  expenses  should  be  gauged  by  an  in- 
dex the  same  as  for  a  man  who  had  been  in  the  country  so  short 
a  time  that  he  cannot  speak  the  language,  I  do  not  think  that  is 
fair. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Carter,  do  you  understand  that  this  index 
is  predicated  upon  an  assignment  of  money  to  different  items,  or 
merely  upon  the  relative  importance  of  the  different  items  that 
go  into  every  family  budget? 

Mr.  Carter:  Will  you  quote  from  that  report  the  amount 
of  money  spent  per  year  by  those  families? 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  have  no  reference  to  money  spent. 

Mr.  Carter:     The  report  that  you  quote  from  has  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  am  referring  to  the  distribution,  and  the 
matter  of  the  relative  importance  of  different  items  which  enter 
into  every  standard  budget. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  have  not  the  report  here,  but  I  think  you  will 
find  that  those  families  spend  very  little  money  for  a  year's 
living. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  any  event,  Mr.  Carter,  there  has  been 
in  no  fiart  of  this  exhibit  any  table  which  attempts  to  show  the 


744 

imi)ortanco  or  uniniiHiilaiicc,  relatively,  of  flour,  as  compared 

with  walnuts? 

•       Mr.  Cartel-:     Kxcept,  as  stated  bj'  the  dealers  in  the  back 
of  the  book. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman:     Anything  further  from  this  witness? 

Mr.  Pliillii^s:  Mr.  Carter,  in  regard  to  this  letter  which 
you  read,  as  having  passed  between  the  Chairman  of  the  former 
Board  of  Arbitration  and  one  of  the  nembers  of  that  Board, 
do  you  know  whether  all  tlio  members  of  that  Board  received 
a  copy  of  that  letter? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  am  (]uite  sure  they  did.  1  think  they  inter- 
changed cov>ios  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  know  whether  all  the  members  of 
that  Board  acquiesced  in  the  statements  contained  therein"? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  can  vouch  for  two  of  them.  I  don't  know 
what  the  others  said. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  you  laiow  whether  tha^  letter  was  1iled 
as  a  part  of  the  record  of  a  proceeding  subsequent  to  the  orig- 
inal arbitration? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  not. 

Mr.  Phillips:     It  was  not  made  a  part  of  it? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

^Ir.  Stone:  Mr.  Carter,  these  articles  of  which  you  give 
the  prices  in  these  twenty-eight  western  towns  are  actually  for 
sale  in  these  shops  in  those  railroad  towns,  are  they  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  Where  they  quote  the  price,  I  suppose  they 
have  them  for  sale.  In  some  instances  they  do  not  quote  the 
price.  In  those  instances  I  think  tliey  would  not  have  them 
for  sale. 

Mr.  Stone:  Coming  down  to  the  increased  cost  of  flour 
and  sugar  and  tobacco,  it  might  be  possible  for  a  family  to  live 
a  whole  month  and  not  buy  any  of  these  conmiodities  at  all, 
might  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter:  They  might  buy  baker's  bread,  and  not  use 
tobacco. 

Mr.  Stone:  They  might  live  on  eornmeal,  and  not  buy 
wheat  flour  at  all? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  it  is  possible. 


745 

Mr.  Stone:  And  at  the  Avages  some  of  our  men  are  getting, 
they  probably  have  had  to  live  on  cornmeal? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  will  not  say  that.  1  know  some  of  them 
like  cornmeal,  or  corn  bread,  at  least.    1  am  one. of  them. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman:     Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Mr.  Carter,  I  understood  you  to  say  that  in 
addition  to  this  report  on  the  cost  of  living,  you  liad  a  re])ort 
based  upon  government  statistics? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:  1  have  here  a  little  volume  entitled  ''In- 
crease in  Retail  Prices  of  Principal  Articles  of  Food  in  Western 
Cities  and  Towns  of  the  United  States  and  Canada."  Do  you 
recognize  this  as  the  work  you  have  prepared? 

Mr.  Carter:     I  do. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  please,  we  desire  to  introduce 
this  as  Exliibit  number  10. 

(The  pamphlet,  so  offered  and  identified,  was  received  in 
evidence  and  thereupon  marked  ""Employes'  Exhibit  No.  10, 
December  9,  1914.") 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  will  you  kindly  explain  the 
purpose  of  this  exliibit? 

Mr.  Carter:  After  the  preparation  of  Exhibit  9  my  atten- 
tion was  called  to  the  fact  that  it  had  been  prepared  by  me,  and 
that  I  would,  perhaps,  be  connected  in  a  partisan  manner  with 
the  presentation  of  this  case,  either  to  the  Managers'  Committee 
or  to  a  Board  of  Arbitration.  Having  regard  for  my  reputation 
as  an  investigator,  I  thought  I  had  best  find  what  someone  else 
had  said  about  the  same  subject. 

This  Exhibit  Number  10  was  prepared  to  show  what  the 
governments  of  the  United  States  and  Canada  thought  about 
the  increased  cost  of  living.  Shall  I  go  on  and  explain,  without 
questions  ? 

Mr.  Phillips:     Yes,  if  jou  will. 

Mr.  Carter:     I  think  I  can  save  time. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  think  it  will  expedite  the  work  if  you  will 
go  on  and  explain  it  without  my  asking  questions. 

Mr.  Carter:  On  pages  4  and  5  you  will  find  Table  2,  show- 
ing the  retail  prices  of  principal  articles  of  food,  1909  to  1913, 
inclusive,  in  seventeen  western  cities. 


746 

"  Iiifonnatiou  from  wliit'li  tliis  tabular  statement  is  derived 
will  l>e  found  in  Bulletins  10.'),  110  and  138,  published  by  the 
United  States  Bureau  of  Labor  Statistics.  Prices  for  1911,  1912, 
and  1913  are  ik?  reported  for  October  15  of  each  of  those  years, 
October  beinir  the  last  report  obtainable  when  this  statement 
was  prepared.  Prices  for  1909  and  1910  are  as  reported  for 
November  of  each  of  those  years,  no  ro]>orts  for  October  of  such 
years  beiiii^'  shown  in  bulletins." 

Vou  will  note  tiiat  the  seventeen  cities  apixiarinju^  at  the 
head  of  the  columns  are  Little  Rock,  Arkansas;  Los  Angeles, 
California:  San  Fiancis.co,  California;  Denver,  Colorado;  Chi- 
cago, Illinois;  New  Orleans,  Louisiana;  Minneapolis,  Minnesota; 
St.  Paul,  Minnesota;  Kansas  City,  Missouri;  St.  Louis,  Missouri; 
Omaha,  Nebraska;  Portland,  Oregon;  Memphis,  Tennessee;  Dal- 
las, Texas;  Salt  Lake  City,  Utah;  Seattle,  Washington,  and 
^nhvauk<M\  Wisconsin;  being  located  in  the  same  territory  to 
Avhich  the  other  investigation  was  restricted,  and  in  the  territory 
upon  which  the  engineers  and  firemen  participating  in  this  Arbi- 
tration are  employed. 

The  first  column  to  the  left,  which  is  repeated  on  the  extreme 
right  margin  of  the  opposite  page,  shoAvs  the  items  of  food  re- 
ported in  these  bulletins. 

You  will  note  opposite  each  item  of  food  five  years  are  re- 
ported, that  is,  the  prices  for  each  year. 

You  will  note  that  chuck  roast  was  not  included  in  these  re- 
ports for  the  years  1909,  1910  and  1911. 

I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  this  table  ex- 
tends over  onto  pages  6  and  7,  and  is  not  restricted  to  pages 
4  and  5. 

Mr.  Phillips:     What  pages,  please,  Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  say  this  table  extends  over  to  pages  6  and  7, 
not  being  restricted  to  pages  4  and  5. 

In  order  that  this  table  should  be  properly  prepared,  we  took 
the  prices  quoted  in  these  bulletins  for  each  town,  and,  if  there 
were  three  reports  from  the  same  town,  we  added  them  together 
and  divided  by  three,  and  accepted  the  result  as  the  average 
price  quoted. 

Now,  it  may  be  that  they  may  have  sold  more  eggs  in  one 
town  than  they  did  in  another;  but,  as  in  the  matter  of  rates,  I 


747 

did  not  attempt  to  count  the  eggs.  I  cousideied  that  tlie  average 
•price  of  eggs  would  be  the  average  price,  whether  there  were  ten 
dozen  sold  in  Dallas  and  one  hundred  and  fifty  dozen  sohl  in 
Kansas  City. 

On  page  2  is  a  summary,  or  a  table  derived  from  Tal)le  1. 

The  last  column  shows  what  the  government  believes  to 
have  been  the  increase  in  the  prices  of  meat,  that  is,  the  United 
States  government  through  its  Bureau  of  Labor. 

I  will  not  quote  them,  for  I  presume  that  those  interested 
will  refer  to  them. 

Now,  by  turning  to  page  9  you  will  see  there  a  table  which 
extends  over  to  page  14.  You  will  note  the  same  information, 
but  for  different  articles  of  food,  taken  from  the  Canadian  Gov- 
ernmental reports. 

The  information  from  which  this  tabular  statement  was 
derived  will  be  found  in  the  Report  of  the  Department  of  Labor 
of  the  Dominion  of  Canada,  entitled,  "Wholesale  Prices,  Can- 
ada, 1913,"  Appendix  A. 

You  will  note  that  I  have  only  taken  the  western  towns 
from  this  report. 

The  Canadian  report,  like  the  United  States  report,  includes 
towns  not  involved  in  this  Arbitration;  but,  in  both  instances, 
I  have  taken  the  towns  in  the  territory  covered  by  this  Arbi- 
tration. 

Without  going  into  detail  as  to  what  is  shown  in  Table  4, 
the  deductions  or  summary  of.  Table  4,  are  shown  in  Table  3, 
and  those  again,  as  in  Table  1,  you  find  in  the  column  to  the 
extreme  right,  the  increases  in  the  prices  of  the  articles  there 
reported. 

I  desire  to  call  attention  to  the  fact  that  the  United  States 
Department  of  Labor  restricts  its  investigation  almost  entirely 
to  meats,  flour,  butter,  potatoes,  sugar,  etc.,  while  the  Canadian 
investigation  includes  a  larger  number  of  items,  even  going  so 
far  as  to  include  coal  and  wood,  and  rent  for  six-room  dwellings 
in  working  men's  quarters,  and  so  forth. 

You  will  find  by  referring  to  the  right  hand  column,  the  last 
column  on  page  8,  Table  3,  the  increase  in  the  cost  of  the  items 
appearing  in  the  first  column,  as  ascertained  by  the  Minister 
of  Labor  of  the  Department  of  Labor  of  the  Dominion  of  Canada. 

By  turning  to  pages  16,  17  anfl  18  you  will  note  diagrams 


748 

of  increase  in  retail  prices  in  articles  of  food.  The  title  is  this : 
"Increase  in  Cost  of  Fourteen  Commodities  Which  Enter  Into 
the  Consumption  of  AVorking  Men's  Families." 

This  is  compiled  from  information  found  in  Bradstreet's 
Weekly  Journal  covering  the  period  of  four  years,  January  1, 
1910,  to  January  1,  1914,  inclusive. 

I  want  to  say  that  these  diagrams  were  not  prepared  by 
me  or  under  my  supervision.  They  were  prepared  by  Mr.  W.  J. 
Lauck  of  Washington,  D.  C,  who  is  a  statistician.  He  prepared 
these  diagrams  for  me. 

I  might  say  that  these  diagrams  are  perhaps  more  con- 
vincing than  a  column  of  figures  would  be. 

If  you  want  information  concerning  the  tables,  you  will 
find  it  on  page  1,  which  is  rather  an  introduction. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Have  you  made  any  comparison  as  to  the  dif- 
ferent articles  or  commodities,  to  ascertain  whether  they  show 
about  the  same  percentage  of  increase  or  decrease  (in  case  of 
decrease),  in  this  government  table  as  appears  in  the  work  you 
have  comjiiled  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  1  did  not  do  that  until  last  night  or  this  morn- 
ing, but  I  find  that  they  are  not  the  same,  except  that  sirloin 
steak  is  almost  identically  the  same. 

For  instance,  in  my  investigation  on  page  13  of  Exhibit  9 
you  will  find  that  sirloin  steak,  native  steer,  shows  an  increase 
of  36.86  per  cent. 

By  referring  to  page  2  of  Exhibit  10,  you  will  notice  that 
the  increase  is  35.9  per  cent. 

By  referring  to  Table  3,  page  8,  in  Canada,  the  increase  is 
36.24  per  cent.  I  never  discovered  that  until,  I  think,  last  eve- 
ning. Otherwise,  you  will  find  c(msiderable  variation.  In  Can- 
ada, for  instance,  some  items  have  shown  no  increase,  while  in 
the  United  States,  or  certain  cities  of  the  United  States,  an  in- 
crease is  shown. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Do  some  of  the  articles  which  you  have 
listed,  similar  to  the  articles  which  are  found  in  this  table,  show 
higher  percentages  of  increase  in  some  instances,  and  lower  per- 
centages in  others? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips:     And  vice  versa? 

Mr.  Carter:     Without  having  made  any  accurate  corapari- 


749 

son,  I  think  that  the  investigation  conducted  by  myself,  the  in- 
vestigation conducted  by  the  Department  of  Labor  of  the  United 
States,  and  the  investigation  conducted  by  the  Department  of 
Labor  of  Canada,  all  show  a  marked  increase  in  retail  prices  of 
the  items  reported,  with  the  exceptions  where  decreases  are 
shown,  as  were  shown  in  my  table, 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  do  not  know  that  you  have  previously 
stated,  but  I  will  ask,  if  any  of  the  cities  included  in  the  govern- 
ment report  are  the  same  as  the  cities  you  have  included  in  your 
report  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Only  in  one  instance.  That  is  Little  Rock, 
Arkansas. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Why  did  you  select  cities  other  than  the 
cities  included  in  the  government  report? 

Mr.  Carter :  In  order  to  find  out  whether  it  is  true  that  a 
man  in  a  little  town  should  work  for  less  than  a  man  in  a  big 
town. 

Mr.  Phillips:     What  did  your  investigations  disclose? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  find  that,  ordinarilj^,  practically  the  same  in- 
crease is  shown.  I  do  not  mean  the  same  specific  increase,  but 
the  same  general  increase. 

Mr.  Phillips :  While  items  may  vary,  the  same  general  in- 
crease would  run  throughout  the  entire  territory,  whether  in 
a  large  city  or  a  small  city? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes. 

I  want  to  say,  that  one  item  in  which  my  investigation  does 
not  agree  with  the  investigations  conducted  by  the  United  States 
and  Canadian  governments,  is  that  they  show  an  increase  in  flour 
and  I  do  not.  For  instance,  in  Table  3,  on  page  8,  the  Depart- 
ment of  Labor  of  Canada  has  found  an  increase  of  3.15  per  cent 
in  flour. 

By  turning  to  page  2,  Table  1,  the  United  States  govern- 
ment in  the  large  cities  found  an  increase  of  10.17  per  cent  in 
flour. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Is  not  that  a  decrease  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  beg  your  pardon ;  that  is  a  decrease.  I  must 
get  my  glasses  changed.  I  cannot  see  these  figures  clearly  in 
this  light. 

Mr.  Phillips :  That  would  indicate  that  the  price  of  flour 
was  less  in  big  cities  than  it  is  in  small  cities? 


750 

Mr.  Carter :  No,  sir,  I  was  in  error  there.  In  place  of  be- 
ing an  increase,  it  would  be  a  decrease.  It  would  indicate  that 
while  flour  in  the  United  States  has  decreased,  as  it  atTects  these 
men  in  Canada  it  has  increased. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Would  it  not  also  indicate  that  the  decrease 
was  greater  in  a  large  city  than  it  was  in  a  small,  outlying  place? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  might  for  flour,  but  I  think  on  some  other 
items  the  reverse  will  appear.  The  fact  of  the  matter  is  I  have 
not  been  able  to  base  any  argument  on  what  it  shows.  It  seems 
to  be  varying. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  believe  you  explained  that  these  graphic 
tables  in  the  back  of  the  book  to  which  you  referred,  were  not 
prepared  by  youf 

Mr.  Carter:  No,  sir,  they  were  prepared  by  Mr.  "W.  J. 
Lauck. 

Mr.  Phillips:  And,  in  your  opinion,  at  a  glance  one  may 
see  what  the  general  increases  have  been  in  the  different  com- 
modities listed  in  this  exhibit? 

Mr.  Carter:  As  taken  from  Bradstreet's  Weekly  Journal. 
You  \vi\\  understand  that  is  an  entirely  different  authority  from 
anything  that  I  have  quoted. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Prom  your  exhibit,  formerly  presented,  with 
relation  to  the  cost  of  living,  1  understand  you  reached  the  con- 
clusion tliat  there  was  a  marked  general  increase  in  the  cost  of 
living. 

Mr.  Carter :  In  the  articles  on  pages  11  and  12  of  Exhibit  9 
I  have  estimated  what  has  been  the  increase.  I  have  said  that, 
considering  the  expressions  of  opinion  of  the  retail  dealers,  for 
meat,  it  would  be  about  $3.83  a  month  for  a  family  of  five,  or 
$40  per  year. 

I  have  called  attention  to  the  fact  that  a  dealer  in  milk  has 
expressed  the  opinion  that  the  average  family  of  five  would 
use  three  pints  of  milk  a  day. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  pardon  the  interruption,  I  did 
not  care  for  the  details.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  you  had 
reached  the  conclusion  as  a  result  of  your  independent  investi- 
gation that  there  was  a  marked  increase  in  the  cost  of  living  of 
the  employes  whom  you  were  investigating  f 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.   Phillips:     In  your  judgment,  are  your  findings  cor- 


751 

roborated  by  the  government  reports  covering  the  same  ter- 
ritory? 

Mr.  Carter :  Generally  they  are.  There  may  be  slight  dif- 
ferences, however,  in  the  averages  reached. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Have  you  the  government  reports  here  to 
which  you  have  referred  and  from  which  this  information  was 
taken? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  pleases,  we  desire  to  introduce 
these  as  exhibits.  The  first  one — which  is  the  last — bears  whole 
number  105,  and  will  be  Exhibit  No.  11 ;  and  the  one  bearing 
whole  number  110,  Exhibit  No.  12,  and  the  one  bearing  Govern- 
ment whole  number  138,  will  be  Exhibit  13.  We  have  here  copies 
for  the  purpose  of  filing  them,  with  the  exception  of  one,  and 
they  are  on  the  way  from  the  Department  at  Washington.  We 
have  weired  for  them  and  are  just  in  receipt  of  a  telegram  from 
the  Superintendent  of  Documents,  which  says,  ''Have  mailed 
Labor  Bulletins  requested  by  telegram."  We  will  be  glad  to 
furnish  the  necessary  number. 

The  Chairman:  You  may  introduce  them  with  that  un- 
derstanding. 

Mr.  Phillips:  We  have  one  cloth-bound  volume  which  we 
are  going  to  ask  the  privilege  of  exchanging  when  the  paper 
backed  books  are  received.  This  was  borrowed  from  the  library 
here. 

(The  documents  so  offered  and  identified  were  received  in 
evidence  and  thereupon  marked  respectively  ''Employes'  Ex- 
hibit No.  11,"  '^Employes'  Exhibit  No.  12"  and  "Employes* 
Exhibit  No.  13,"  "received  in  evidence  December  9,  1914.") 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  the  increased  wages  of  firemen  granted  in 
May,  1910,  were  predicated  upon  the  increased  cost  of  living, 
why  do  you  start  your  comparisons  with  1909? 

The  Chairman :     To  what  page  do  you  refer  ? 

Mr.  Sheean :    Page  2,  Table  1. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  that  vou  will  find  the  information  com- 
municated  to  the  Board  of  Arbitration  in  May  of  1910  was  based 
largely  upon  the  experience  of  the  past  year,  1909.  I  think  you 
will  find  tliat  the  testimony  will  indicate  as  mucli. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But,  Mr.  Carter,  turning  over  to  page  4,  for 
instance,  or  the  first  page  of  table  2,  from  which  table  1  is  de- 


752 

rived,  Exliibit  10, — you  will  find  that  1909  is  generally  a  very 
much  lower  basis  than  1910  or  1911,  from  which  to  start. 

Mr.  Carter:  I  think  not.  I  think  that  if  you  w^ill  look  at 
sirloin  steak,  the  first  item  is  19  cents,  in  1909,  18.21  cents  in 
1910— 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  first  item  I  have  is  18.33  cents  for  1909 ; 
22  cents  for  1910  and  22  cents  for  1911. 

Mr.  Carter:     AVhat  page  have  you? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Page  4. 

Mr.  Carter :  The  total  is  17.83  cents  in  1909  and  18.87  cents 
in  1910.  I  was  looking  at  the  right  column  on  page  4,  which  was 
for  Kansas  City,  Missouri,  which  shows  a  decrease. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  the  seventeen  cities,  collectively,  show, 
in  the  last  column,  that  for  1909  you  w^ould  start  out  on  a  basis 
of  17.83  cents,  whereas,  in  1910  you  would  start  as  your  basis 
with  18.87  cents,  wouldn't  you? 

Mr.  Carter :     That  is  true. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  Engineers'  Award  was  made  in 
December,  1910,  and  the  agreement  became  effective  in  Febru- 
ary, 1911,  did  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :    Yes.    December  24th. 

Mr.  Sheean:    December  24,  1910. 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  but  do  not  misunderstand  me.  I  do  not 
know  w^hether  their  increase  w^as  based  on  the  increased  cost  of 
living  or  not.  I  don't  think  it  was  discussed.  I  only  referred  to 
the  Firemen's  Arbitration. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then,  Mr.  Carter,  can  you  explain  just  w^hy 
you  went  back  to  1910  as  a  basis  for  this  comparison  in  which 
you  carried  out  the  percentages? 

Mr.  Carter :  When  the  special  investigation  was  conducted 
I  had  in  view  the  information  presented  at  the  previous  arbi- 
tration. I  had  knowledge  of  the  fact  that  it  Avas  the  conditions 
that  existed  in  the  year  previous  to  May,  1910,  that  were  con- 
sidered by  the  Board. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  having  that  information  and  having 
presented  that  down  to  May,  1910,  and  having,  as  you  say,  ob- 
tained an  increase  of  Avages  on  all  that  took  place  do\vn  to  May, 
1910,  why  do  you  begin  here  and  now  introduce  the  same  infor- 
mation which  you  say  you  had  at  that  time  and  made  use  of,  as 
to  the  conditions  in  1909? 


753 

Mr.  Carter:  Because,  as  stated,  it  was  the  conditions  and 
the  prices  of  1909, 1  think, — that  is  December,  1909  and  January, 
1910,  the  winter,  that  were  considered  by  the  Arbitration  Board 
in  May,  1910,  and  it  was  for  the  express  purpose  of  getting  that 
period  of  time  before  the  Arbitration  here,  the  same  period  of 
time ;  that  a  settlement  may  be  reached  in  this  case. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  what  I  am  getting  at  is  simply 
and  solely  to  ascertain  why  you  make  1909  the  base  of  your 
starting  point  for  comparison  in  this  tabulation  if,  as  you  say, 
the  adjustment  predicated  on  the  increased  cost  of  living  was 
made  up  to  May,  19101 

Mr.  Carter :  I  did  not  say  that.  I  just  said,  and  I  will  say 
it  again,  that  the  matter  presented  at  the  Arbitration  in  May, 
1910,  was  based  upon  the  information  ol)tainable  in  the  winter 
of  1909-1910,  or  about  three  or  four  months  before  the  arbi- 
tration. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Which  is  the  same  information  that  is  here 
used  as  the  base  of  your  comparison,  namely,  the  year  1909. 

Mr.  Carter:  In  the  government  table  that  might  apply, 
but  not  in  this  special  investigation.  Our  special  investigation 
began  in  December,  1913.  It  was  just  exactly  four  years  before 
that  period  that  the  other  matter  was  gathered. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Carter,  apparently,  from  this  exhibit, 
there  was  quite  a  change  between  1909  and  1910,  isn't  that  true? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  sir,  but  I  will  say — 

Mr.  Sheean :  It  is  also  true  that  down  to  the  very  day  of 
the  completion  of  your  award,  that  you  brought  conditions  at 
that  time  in  your  proof,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Carter :     How  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  hearing  which  preceded  the  award  of 
1910,  you  submitted  all  of  the  figures  down  to  and  concluding 
the  year  1909? 

Mr.  Carter :     Yes,  and  early  of  1910. 

Mr.  Sheean :     And  early  of  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  early  part  of  1910 
was  when  the  marked  change  and  increase  came,  was  it  not? 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  you  will  find  that  in  the  governmental 
reports,  the  data  on  which  these  reports  are  based  was  obtained 


754 

for  a  iieriod  of  time  after  the  Arbitration  in  1910.  They  have 
reports  bi-monthly  as  I  remember  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Clearly,  Mr.  Garter,  the  report  for  the  year 
1909  as  to  conditions  in  1909,  could  not  cover  conditions  down 
to  May,  1910? 

Mr.  Carter:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Clearly  all  of  the  exhibits  then  taken  as  the 
base  for  the  comparative  percentages  which  you  used,  were 
figured  to  1909? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Equally  clearly  if  the  figures  for  the  year  1910 
be  used  as  a  basis,  all  of  your  percentages  will  be  materially 
reduced  ? 

Mr.  Carter:  Yes,  and  if  you  make  it  1911  they  will  be 
reduced  still  further. 

Mr.  Sheean:    That  is  all. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  your  wage 
movement  of  1910  was  started  early  in  1909? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  sir,  that  is  why  we  began  to  gather  ma- 
terial so  far  ahead,  just  like  we  have  done  now. 

Mr,  Phillips:  In  gathering  data  for  that  proceeding  you 
went  back  as  you  have  in  this  case,  to  the  preceding  general 
settlement? 

Mr.  Carter:  In  practically  all  of  the  preliminary  work  for 
the  last  Arbitration,  or  what  was  settled  in  the  last  Arbitration, 
was  prepared  in  advance  of  the  Arbitration,  and,  just  as  in  this 
case,  we  could  not  anticipate — we  would  gladly  have  delayed 
this  investigation  now  so  as  to  include  the  higher  prices,  but  we 
could  not,  we  did  not  have  time.    We  had  to  do  it  while  we  could. 

Mr.  Phillips:  In  gathering  the  data  which,  according  to 
your  statement,  resulted  in  a  15  cent  increase  to  the  firemen  on 
account  of  increased  cost  of  living,  did  you  go  back  to  1907,  the 
time  of  the  pre\ious  wage  increase? 

Mr.  Carter:  [  think  tluit  most  of  the  testimony  then  was 
personal ;  that  is,  the  witnesses  were  on  the  stand  and  told  their 
own  personal  experience  with  what  had  been  the  increase  in 
prices  from  1907  up  to  the  i^eriod  of  the  Arbitration. 

Mr.  Phillips:  AVoiild  these  Government  Tables  which  you 
have  used,  tables  showing  increases  for  1909,  have  been  avail- 
able at  the  time  of  the  arbitration  in  1910? 


755 

Mr.  Carter :  I  think  it  is  a  year  late,  or  a  considerable  time 
late  when  we  get  full  information  for  the  year;  but  I  want  to 
say  in  fairness  that  the  point  that  Mr.  Sheean  is  bringing  out, 
that  in.  this  Govermnent  report  we  only  include  in  1909  that 
portion  of  the  matter  we  also  included  for  1909  in  our  arbitra- 
tion of  May,  1910,  and  would  not  include  anything  that  we  pre- 
sented for  the  months  of  January,  February,  March  and  xVpril 
of  1910. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  do  not  think  that,  if  they  were  included 
in  there,  it  would  materially  change  the  figures  that  you  reached 
in  your  indivdual  or  independent  investigation? 

Mr.  Carter:  It  would  not  change  the  figures  of  the  inde- 
pendent investigation.  It  might  those  of  this  Governmental 
investigation  if  it  were  possible — I  will  have  to  take  that  back. 
It  was  possible.  You  will  find  that  the  prices  for  1909  and 
1910  as  reported  for  November  of  those  years,  and  for  1911, 
1912  and  1913  for  October,  therefore,  this  information  for  1910 
is  based  on  November,  1910,  which  is  practically  the  same  time 
— I  mean  1909,  for  November,  1909,  wliich  is  practically  the 
same  time  as  covered  by  our  previous  investigation.  Under- 
stand that  does  not  purport  to  be  prices  for  1909  but  for  Novem- 
ber 15,  1909,  just  45  days — 46  days  before  1910.  I  overlooked 
that  myself. 

Mr.  Phillips:     That  is  alU 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  please,  we  now  offer  this 
Canadian  document  which  we  desire  to  introduce  as  Exhibit 
No.  14.  It  was  not  on  the  table  when  the  other  three  were  intro- 
duced, and  that  is  the  proper  number  that  exhibit  would  take. 
It  contains  most  of  the  figures  shown  in  Exhibit  No.  10,  which 
are  taken  from  the  Canadian  government. 

Mr.  Carter :  I  might  explain  that  we  overlooked  the  neces- 
sity of  having  quite  a  large  number  of  governmental  reports  for 
filing  with  the  Board,  and  there  was  no  intention  on  our  part 
not  to  have  a  sufficient  number. 

(The  document  so  offered  and  identified  was  received  in 
evidence  and  thereupon  marked  "Employes'  Exhibit  No.  14, 
received  in  evidence  December  9,  1914.") 

Mr.  Phillips:  Now,  Mr.  Carter,  in  connection  with  this  Cost 
of  Living  question,  have  you  prepared  anything  to  show  the 


756 

iucreased  cost  of  meals  for  eng:inoei's  and  firemen  wlicn  away 
from  their  liomes? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pliillii)s:  I  have  liere  a  book  entitled,  ** Increase  in 
(;!ost  of  Meals  and  Rooms  Away  from  Home,  and  Increase  in 
Cost  of  House  R<'nt  to  Finnineers  and  Firemen  Employed  on 
Westeni  Kail  roads. ' '  Do  you  identify  this  as  the  work  you  have 
prepared  ? 

Mr.  (barter:     I  do. 

^Ir.  Phillips:  If  the  Board  please,  we  desire  to  introduce 
this  as  Exhibit  No.  15. 

(The  document  so  offered  and  identified  was  received  in  evi- 
dence and  thereupon  marked  ''Employes"  Exhibit  No.  15,  re- 
ceived in  evidence  December  9,  11)14.") 

Mr.  Carter:  We  have  enroute,  and  have  been  so  advised  by 
wire  by  the  Superintendent  of  Public  Documents  at  Washington, 
that  he  has  shipped  us  Bulletins  105,  110  and  138,  and  I  hope 
by  tomorrow  to  be  able  to  supply  others. 

]\rr.  Phillips:  Mr.  Carter,  will  you  please  exj^lain  the  pur- 
pose of  this  exhibit  and  the  method  of  its  preparation? 

]\Ir.  Carter:  For  the  purpose  of  ascertaining  if  there  had 
been  any  increase  in  the  cost  of  meals  and  rooms  to  Locomotive 
Engineers  and  Firemen  when  awaj'^  from  home  terminals,  and 
to  ascertain  if  there  had  been  an  increase  in  house  rent,  printed 
question  forms  were  sent  to  local  chairmen  of  lodges  of  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen  on  Western 
Railroads  during  the  month  of  January,  1914.  There  were 
received  from  February  4, 1914,  to  July,  1914,  replies  from  seven 
hundred  and  forty-two  firemen  and  engineers. 

During  the  month  of  February,  1914,  similar  question  forms 
were  sent  to  divisions  of  the  Brotherliood  of  Locomotive  Engi- 
neers at  the  same  points,  four  hundred  and  thirtj^-two  of  which 
were  completed  and  returned  by  engineers.  Shall  I  proceed  to 
explain  this,  so  as  to  save  time? 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  think  you  wdll  expedite  the  hearing  greatly 
if  you  will  explain  what  you  consider  necessary. 

Mr.  Carter:  Turning  to  Page  8,  you  will  find  Table  1.  In 
the  first  column  appears  the  name  of  the  railroad  on  which  the 
man  is  employed  that  filled  out  the  report  form.  In  the  second 
colmnn  you  will  find  a  transcript  of  what  he  said  was  the  increase 


757 

in  the  cost  of  the  meals.  You  will  find  in  the  third  column  mis- 
cellaneous comments,  found  in  the  reports  concerning!:  meals. 
The  last  column  is  the  number  of  the  report,  and  we  shall  file 
three  volumes  of  these  reports,  and  make  it  possible  for  you  to 
refer  to  any  one  of  these  by  number,  if  you  desire  additional  in- 
formation. 

The  Chairman:  You  don't  mean  that  you  want  them  to  be 
included  as  a  part  of  the  record,  but — 

Mr.  Carter:  Basic  information.  For  instance,  if  there  was 
some  line  here  that  was  not  clearly  understood,  there  was  the 
original  report  to  which  you  could  refer.  These  answers  were 
from  members  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and 
Enginemen  in  answer  to  these  questions : 

''First:  Are  you  required  to  pay  more  for  the  same  meals 
in  1914  than  in  1909?  If  the  answer  is  'Yes,'  be  specific  in  stat- 
ing where  you  pay  this  increased  price,  and  the  difference  be- 
tween the  price  paid  in  1914  and  1909. 

"Second:  Where  you  are  required  to  pay  the  same  price 
for  a  meal,  is  the  quality  and  quantity  inferior  to  that  of  1909! 
If  your  answer  is  '  Yes, '  explain  definitely  the  difference  in  the 
quality  or  quantity  of  the  meal. 

' '  Third :  Do  you  know  of  any  change  in  the  price  of  meals 
at  railway  eating  houses  on  the  line  of  railroad  by  which  you 
are  employed?  If  the  answer  is  'Yes,'  give  definite  information 
as  to  where  the  price  has  been  increased,  and  the  difference  in 
price. ' ' 

Table  1  is  answers  by  report  numbers  to  those  questions. 

Table  2  you  will  find  on  page  35.  This  purports  to  give  the 
increased  cost  of  sleeping  rooms,  away  from  home,  and  house 
rent  for  families  of  railroad  employes,  1914  over  1909.  In  the 
same  manner  you  will  find  in  the  left  hand  column  the  name  of 
railroad  and  name  of  the  town.  I  want  to  explain  that  in  some 
instances,  where  an  increase  is  reported,  the  name  of  the  town 
is  not  stated  in  connection  with  the  increase,  and  in  such  case  we 
have  taken  the  name  of  the  town  from  which  the  report  has  been 
made,  accepting  it  as  applying  to  that  town. 

The  second  column  show^s  what  purports  to  be  the  increase 
in  cost  of  room  rent  of  men  while  away  from  their  home  ter- 
minals. 


758 

The  tliird  column  shows  the  increase  in  house  rent  for  the 
men's  families. 

The  fourth  column,  the  right  column,  shows  the  number  of 
the  report,  so  that  immediate  reference  may  be  made  to  tlie  orig- 
inal report. 

The  answers  sho^vn  in  Table  2,  are  from  members  of  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Firemen  and  Enginemen  and  are 
in  reply  to  this  question : 

"(4)  Are  you  required  to  pay  more  for  room  rent  at  the 
'away  from  home  terminal,'  either  by  night,  week  or  month,  in 
1914  than  in  1909?  If  your  answer  is  'Yes,'  give  detailed  infor- 
mation as  to  where  you  pay  this  increased  rent,  and  the  differ- 
ence. 

''(5)  Are  you  required  to  pay  more  rent  per  month  for 
the  house  in  which  your  family  now  resides  than  in  1909?  If 
your  answer  is  'Yes,'  explain  if  you  have  lived  in  the  same  house, 
and  if  there  have  been  any  improvements  in  the  house  w^hich 
w^ould  account  for  the  increase. 

"(6)  Are  you  paying  more  rent  per  month  for  the  house 
in  w^hich  your  family  now  resides  than  others  paid,  who  occupied 
the  same  house  in  1909?  If  the  answer  is  'Yes,'  explain  who 
paid  the  less  rent,  and  the  difference,  and  if  there  have  been  any 
improvements  in  the  house  which  would  account  for  any  in- 
crease." 

Table  3  begins  on  page  65  and  is  arranged  in  the  same 
manner.  It  shows  the  increased  cost  of  meals  at  eating  places 
patronized  by  railroad  employes  when  away  from  home.  Table 
3  is  almost  identical  with  table  1 ;  but  the  answers  to  these  ques- 
tions w^ere  furnished  by  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engi- 
neers. The  questions  on  which  these  answers  are  based,  are  as 
follows : 

"  (1)  Are  you  required  to  pay  more  for  the  same  class  of 
meals  in  1914  (February)  than  in  1910? 

"If  your  answer  is  'Yes,'  specifically  name  restaurant  or 
boarding  house  (showing  location)  where  there  has  been  an  in- 
crease, stating  exactly  what  has  been  the  increase  (in  cents)  in 
price  of  meals. 

"  (2)     \Vhere  you  are  required  to  pay  the  same  price  for  a 


759 

meal,  is  the  quality  and  quantity  inferior  in  1914  (February)  to 
that  of  1910? 

**If  your  answer  is  *Yes,'  specifically  name  the  restaurant 
or  boarding  house  (showing  location)  where  meals  cost  the 
same  price  in  1914  as  in  1910,  and  are  inferior  in  quantity  or 
quality,  explaining  the  manner  in  which  they  are  inferior. 

**  (3)  Do  you  know  of  any  change  in  the  price  of  meals  at 
railway  eating  houses  on  the  line  or  railroad  by  which  you  are 
employed? 

''If  your  answer  is  *Yes,'  state  name  and  location  of  such 
eating  houses  and  give  exact  difference  (in  cents)  in  prices  of 
meals  to  railway  employes." 

Table  4  begins  on  page  90  and  is  almost  a  counterpart  of 
table  2,  except  that  those  answers  are  given  by  members  of  the 
Brotherhood  of  Locomotive  Engineers,  and  are  in  answer  to 
these  questions: 

'*  (4)  Are  you  required  to  pay  more  for  room  rent  at  the 
'away  from  home  terminal,'  either  by  night,  week  or  month,  in 
1914  (February)  than  in  1910? 

"If  your  answer  is  'Yes,'  name  the  rooming  house  (giving 
location)  and  state  specifically  (in  cents)  the  difference  in  cost 
between  1914  and  1910. 

"  (5)  Are  you  required  to  pay  more  for  rent  per  month  for 
the  house  in  which  your  family  now  resides  than  you  paid  (or 
others  paid)  for  the  same  house  in  1910? 

"If  your  answer  is  'Yes,'  state  specifically  the  amount  you 
pay  per  month  in  1914  and  the  amount  you  (or  others)  paid  in 
1910. 

"If  your  answer  is  'No,'  state  if  house  is  in  as  good  condi- 
tion in  IdU  as  ia  1910." 

I  believe  that  explains  what  the  book  communicates,  and 
I  want  to  say  this  much,  that  the  men  who  filled  these  out  were 
not  under  oath,  are  men  that  I  do  not  even  know.  They  were 
simply  filled  out  by  men  who  are  members  of  these  organiza- 
tions, who  signed  their  names  and  forwarded  them  to  our  ofiSce 
here,  or  in  Peoria  or  in  Cleveland.  I  cannot  vouch  for  accuracy 
of  those  statements.    I  give  them  for  what  they  are  worth. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  believe  them  to  be  correct,  do  you  not, 
Mr.  Carter? 

Mr.  Carter:    I  believe  so,  or  I  would  not  publish  them.    I 


760 

want  to  call  attention  to  the  fact  that,  in  this  investigation  at 
least,  I  just  publish  the  replies  received,  without  further  inves- 
tigation. 

Mr.  Phillips:  Does  the  general  range  of  replies  received 
indicate  that  there  has  been  any  material  increase  in  cost  of 
meals  or  cost  of  rooms  or  increase  in  house  rents  for  the  period 
covered  ? 

Mr.  Carter :  Yes,  a  considerable  increase,  and  pages  2,  3,  4, 
5,  6  and  7  give  a  summary  of  what  may  be  found  in  the  reports. 

Mr.  Phillips :  This  would  indicate  then  that  in  addition  to 
the  increased  cost  of  home  living  expenses,  as  shown  by  the 
previous  exhibits,  there  is  also  a  marked  increase  in  the  away 
from  home  expenses  of  engineers  and  firemen. 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  engineers  and  firemen  have  to  pay  all  of 
their  expenses  when  away  from  home? 

Mr.  Carter:  Always,  unless  in  some  instances  the  rail- 
roads furnish  what  they  call  bunk  houses  for  the  men  to  sleep 
in.  They  always  pay  for  their  meals.  At  some  places  I  think 
the  Y.  M.  C.  A.  has  provided  places  purposely  for  railroad  men, 
known  as  railroad  Y.  M.  C.  A.  houses. 

Mr.  Phillips:     Club  houses? 

Mr.  Carter:  Club  houses,  and  I  think  they  provide  rooms 
there  at  a  cheaper  rate.  But  that  isn't  the  rule.  They  haven't 
these  Y.  M.  C  A.  places  at  every  terminal,  by  any  means. 

Mr.  Phillips:  I  understood  you  to  say,  Mr.  Carter,  that 
no  allowance  is  made  to  engineers  and  firemen  when  away  from 
home  terminals? 

Mr.  Carter :     No,  not  to  engineers  and  firemen. 

Mr.  Phillips :  Do  you  know  whether  that  condition  applies 
to  other  railroad  employes,  other  than  engineers,  firemen,  train- 
men and  conductors? 

Mr.  Carter:  I  do  not  know  positively,  but  I  have  heard 
that  when  they  send  machinists  and  boiler  makers  out  there  is 
some  special  rate,  or  something  of  that  kind;  but  I  don't  know 
that.  I  am  quite  sure,  however,  in  other  industries  than  rail- 
roads, when  a  representative  is  sent  out  he  generally  has  his 
expenses  paid.  To  a  certain  extent  my  expenses  are  paid  here, 
in  addition  to  what  I  receive  as  compensation.  I  think  that 
applies  to  almost  all  industries,  where  the  requirements  of  the 


TT 


761 

business  are  such  that  the  employe  or  agent  must  travel  to  places 
distant  from  his  home. 

Mr.  Phillips :  From  your  investigation  you  find  that  there 
has  been  an  increase  in  the  cost  of  rooms  and  meals  away  from 
home,  approximately  the  same  as  the  other  general  increase  in 
the  cost  of  living? 

Mr.  Carter:  According  to  the  statements  made  by  these 
men,  over  their  own  signatures,  the  original  reports  of  which 
have  been  filed,  there  has  been  a  marked  increase. 

Mr.  Phillips :  You  have  in  regard  to  these  reports,  letters 
from  the  engineers  and  firemen,  to  which  you  have  referred? 

Mr.  Carter :  They  are  not  letters.  They  are  report  forms 
completed  by  these  men. 

Mr.  Phillips :     They  are  signed  by  each  individual  ? 

Mr.  Carter:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Phillips :     Are  they  dated? 

Mr.  Carter:  The  date  of  receipt  has  been  placed  thereon, 
but  sometimes  that  is  not  an  accurate  date.  For  instance,  if  a 
report  was  sent  to  the  Peoria  office,  it  may  have  had  the  time 
of  receipt  there  put  on  it,  it  may  not  have  been  dated  but  sent 
here  to  Chicago  and  we  dated  it  here.  There  is  that  deviation 
in  the  dates.  Ordinarily  you  will  find  every  one  dated  in  chron- 
ological order. 

Mr.  Phillips :  If  the  Board  pleases,  I  do  not  want  to  burden 
the  record  by  reading  data  and  figures  and  details  here  from 
these  reports  and  exhibits.  They  are  on  file  and  I  presume  that 
you  will  have  enough  to  do  to  pick  the  information  out  later 
without  burdening  you  with  it  now. 

The  Chairman:  It  is  not  necessary  to  incorporate  it  in 
the  record  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Phillips:  To  expedite  the  hearing,  I  do  not  think  I 
will  make  any  further  inquiry  in  regard  to  this  exhibit.  You 
have  the  original  files  there,  those  report  forms? 

Mr.  Carter:    Yes. 

Mr.  Phillips :  These  we  desire  to  file,  if  the  Board  pleases, 
as  supporting  data  for  the  reference  and  information  of  the 
Board,  if  it  wishes  it.  If  there  is  anything  contained  in  this 
exhibit  that  is  not  clear,  I  am  sure  that  the  basic  information  is 
contained  within  these  volumes. 


762 

(The  documents  were  delivered  to  the  Secretary  of  the 
Board  but  not  marked  as  exhibits.) 

Mr.  Stone:  I  should  like  to  make  one  correction,  because 
we  have  no  desire  to  put  ujd  anything  here  that  is  not  correct. 
On  page  35  you  will  find  that  at  Needles,  California,  there  is  an 
eight  to  twelve  hour  limit  on  the  time  a  man  is  allowed  to  hold 
a  bed.  In  other  words,  they  run  ''first  in  and  first  out." 
That  mistake  was  brought  about  because  the  letter  is  dated 
there,  and  the  x^laces  they  refer  to  where  there  is  a  limit  on  the 
bed,  are  Barstow  and  Seligman,  California.  Needles,  Califor- 
nia, is  the  home  tenuinal  and  the  Harvey  Eating  House  does 
not  have  a  limit  on  beds  there.  At  Barstow  and  Seligman,  for 
example,  if  you  were  in  bed  and  wanted  to  stay  there  longer  than 
ten  hours,  at  the  end  of  ten  hours  you  would  be  called,  and  if 
you  remained  you  would  be  charged  for  another  bed. 

Mr.  Park:     Are  they  the  Y.  M.  C.  A.  rooms? 

Mr.  Stone :  The  Harvey  Eating  House,  our  chairman  says. 
I  simply  make  that  correction  because  the  error  is  brought 
about  by  the  letter  being  dated  from  Needles. 

^Ir.  Carter:  I  think  I  explained  that  where  there  is  lack 
of  information  as  to  what  point  the  information  applied  to,  that 
I  arbitrarily  placed  the  town  from  which  the  report  was  made, 
in  column  1. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Mr.  Stone,  wluit  is  the  difference  in  the  price 
if  you  sleep  eight  hours  or  twelve  hours? 

Mr.  Stone :  If  you  sleep  eight  or  ten  hours  the  price  would 
be  whatever  the  price  is  for  a  bed.  At  the  end  of  the  eight  or 
ten  hour  period  you  would  be  called,  and  if  you  refused  to  get 
up,  said  you  did  not  have  enough  sleep  and  wanted  to  sleep  a 
while  longer,  you  would  be  charged  a  second  price  for  the  bed. 
You  pay  two  prices  for  that  same  bed.  That  is  quite  common 
where  the  bed  room  is  limited,  at  these  terminals,  where  there 
practically  isn't  room  enough  for  the  men. 

Mr.  Burgess :  That  bed  does  not  come  under  the  Hours  of 
Service  Law? 

Mr.  Stone:  You  pay  overtime  after  ten  hours  or  pay 
double  time,  rather,  because  you  are  charged  again. 

Mr.  Sheean :  On  this  page  35,  where  it  says  ' '  They  ask  for 
your  room  from  eight  to  twelve  hours  after  you  sign  up  * ' — is  it 
twelve  hours  T 


763 

Mr.  Stone :  It  varies  from  eight  to  twelve  hours  at  differ- 
ent houses. 

Mr.  Sheean :    At  different  houses  at  these  two  points  ? 

Mr.  Stone:  AVait  a  minute,  and  I  will  get  it  right.  The 
Chairman  says  if  there  is  anybody  waiting  for  a  bed  they  will 
call  you  at  the  end  of  eight  hours;  but  if  there  isn't  anybody 
waiting  they  will  let  you  sleep  twelve  hours  without  charging 
you  for  the  second  bed.  It  depends  on  how  many  are  waiting. 
It  is  like  many  of  these  things,  it  is  limited  by  supply  and  de- 
mand. 

The  Chairman :     The  mtness  is  with  you,  Mr.  Sheean. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  don 't  see  anything  I  want  to  ask  about  now. 
If  I  discover  anything  on  which  I  would  like  information,  I 
would  like  to  ask  some  questions. 

The  Chairman:  Yes,  you  may  do  so.  You  may  proceed, 
Mr.  Phillips,  with  the  next  witness. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  had  no  idea  but  what  the  cross-examination 
would  go  on  until  the  adjournment;  but  we  are  ready  to  proceed 
if  the  Board  desires, — I  would  only  suggest  that  we  would  just 
get  started. 

The  Chairman :  I  think  it  is  much  better  to  wait  until  morn- 
ing. We  will  take  an  adjournment  until  10  o'clock  tomorrow 
morning. 

(Whereupon,  at  4:45  o'clock  P.  M.,  December  9,  1914,  an 
adjournment  was  taken  until  10  o'clock  A.  M.,  December  10, 
1914.) 


765 


IN  THE  MATTER  OF  THE 

ARBITRATION 

between  the 
WESTERN  RAILWAYS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD  OF  LOCOMOTIVE 
ENGINEERS 
and 
BROTHERHOOD    OF    LOCOMOTIVE    FIRE- 
MEN AND  ENGINEMEN 
under  the  Act  approved  July  15,  1913,  by  agree- 
ment dated  August  3,  1914. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  December  10,  1914. 

Met  pursuant  to  adjournment  at  10  o'clock  A.  M. 
Present:     Arbitrators  and  parties  as  before. 

The  Chairman :  Are  there  any  corrections  to  make  this 
morning? 

Mr.  Stone :     Not  that  I  know  of. 

The  Chairman:     Call  your  first  witness. 

Mr.  Stone :  Before  calling  the  witnesses,  Mr.  Chairman,  I 
would  like  to  say  that  these  men  we  shall  put  on  the  witness 
stand — I  shall  hope  to  prove  by  them  the  character  of  Avork  they 
perform  in  the  different  classes  of  service,  and  the  hardships 
that  they  endure.  I  think  it  is  only  fair  to  say,  as  to  the  men, 
that  these  men  are  not  going  to  deal  with  theories,  but  they  are 
men  out  of  the  cabs  of  the  locomotives,  and  many  of  them  have 
not  been  on  the  witness  stand  before.  As  far  as  possible  I  expect 
to  allow  them  to  tell  their  stories  in  their  own  way. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Are  these  witnesses  all  men  in  actual  service 
at  the  present  time! 

Mr.  Stone :  Yes,  sir,  right  out  of  their  cabs.  Some  of  them 
haven't  got  the  coal  dust  off  their  faces  yet.  Mr.  Goulding,  will 
you  take  the  stand!  Mr.  Goulding  is  employed  in  the  city  of 
Chicago  as  a  transfer  engineer  for  the  Baltimore  k  Ohio  Chicago 
Terminal  and  is  just  out  of  the  cab  and  is  in  actual  service. 


766 

JOHN  C.  GOULDING  was  called  as  a  witness  and  having 
been  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone:    What  is  the  class  of  service  you  are  in!  . 

;Mr.  Goulding:     Transfer. 

Mr.  Stone :     How  many  years  of  service  with  this  company? 

Mr.  Goulding:     About  twenty  years. 

Mr.  Stone:  How  many  years  of  service  in  the  transfer 
work? 

Mr.  Goulding:     About  eighteen  years — eighteen  years. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  class  of  engine  are  you  running  at  the 
present  time? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Consolidated  type. 

Mr.  Stone:    What  is  the  weight  of  this  locomotive? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Why,  the  weight  is  not  stenciled  on  the 
engine  any  place  on  the  cab ;  but  when  the  engines  came  to  this 
road  the  master  mechanic  told  me  that  they  weighed  97  tons  on 
their  drivers. 

Mr.  Stone:     Does  the  run  you  are  assigned  to  work  daily? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  sir.    I  work  six  days  a  week. 

Mr.  Stone :    You  are  not  called  on  Sundays  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:     On  Mondays. 

Mr.  Stone :     On  Mondavs  vou  do  not  work  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  About  how  manv  hours  do  vou  work  in  this 
six-day  week? 

Mr.  Goulding:     About  87  hours,  average. 

Mr.  Stone:    What  time  do  you  start  to  work? 

Mr.  Goulding:     At  1  o'clock  A.  M. 

Mr.  Stone:     At  1  o'clock  in  the  morning? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  time  do  vou  leave  vour  home  to  go  to 
work? 

Mr.  Goulding :     About  11 :55  P.  M. 

Mr.  Stone:     Are  you  called,  or  do  you  have  to  report? 

Mr.  Goulding:     I  report. 

Mr.  Stone:    You  are  not  called? 

Mr.  Goulding:     I  live  too  far  out. 

Mr.  Stone :    Well,  I  wish  you  would  describe,  for  the  benefit 


767 

of  this  Board,  just  what  you  do  from  the  time  you  get  up  at 
11 :30  at  night,  when  you  call  yourself  at  11 :30  at  night,  I  mean, 
until  you  actually  start  into  service ;  just  describe  what  you  do 
towards  getting  your  lunch  and  getting  down  to  your  yard,  and 
all  that,  I  mean. 

Mr.  (roulding :  Well,  I  get  up  at  11 :30  and  I  eat  and  get 
ready.  I  walk  one  block  to  the  street  car.  I  leave  there  on  the 
street  car,  it  comes  along  there  about  11 :55,  and  when  I  arrive 
at  Eobey  street,  I  arrive  at  the  roundhouse,  it  is  no  walk  at  all, 
and  I  get  my  engine  ready,  grease  cups,  and  oil,  and  everything 
ready,  pump  started,  and  everything,  ready  to  leave  at  1  o'clock 
when  the  brakeman  comes  after  me. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  you  paid  for  any  of  that  time  in  the  shape 
of  preparatory  time! 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     How  much! 

Mr.  Goulding:     Thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  are  allowed  thirty  minutes'  preparatory 
time ! 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir." 

Mr.  Stone:  I  would  understand  from  that  that  your  time 
actually  begins  at  12:30! 

Mr.  Goulding:     12:30. 

Mr.  Stone:  After  vou  are  readv  to  work  at  one  o'clock, 
then  what  happens ! 

Mr.  Goulding:  We  assemble  a  train  together,  of  about 
sixty-five  or  seventy  cars  otf  of  a  number  of  tracks,  sometimes 
three  tracks,  sometimes  two,  pump  the  air  up,  try  our  brakes  and 
proceed. 

Mr.  Stone :  Do  you  have  a  caboose  for  the  train  crew  on 
this  run! 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Just  the  same  as  a  through  freight  train! 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes.  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  is  this  yard  where  you  start  from? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Kobey  Street. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  would  say,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  if  we  could 
have  a  large  map  of  Chicago,  if  some  of  these  railroads  could 
supply  it,  it  perhaps  would  be  a  good  thing,  so  that  we  could 


768 

understand  the  diiifeient  roads  tliat  these  men  have  to  transfer 
over. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr,  Stone,  1  think  the  Rand-McNally  switch- 
ing map  is  probably  the  best  map  showing  the  terminal  situation, 

Mr.  Stone:     The  Rand-McNally  switching  map  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     Their  office  is  on  South  Clark  Street? 

Mr.  Sheean:  Yes,  at  Harrison,  and  I  am  quite  sure  you 
could  send  over  and  get  one  of  those  maps. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  will  send  over  and  get  a  couple.  Tliat  is  the 
Robey  Street  yard  you  start  from? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Where  is  your  first  stop? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Our  first  stop  is — 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  at  Barr  Yard,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  63rd  Street  for  water. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  take  Avater  then  on  the  main  line  after 
you  get  out  there  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Yes,  sir.  Cut  oft"  the  engine  and  take 
water. 

Mr.  Stone:  This  engine's  tank  is  not  filled  witli  water  at 
the  roundhouse? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Have  you  used  up  one  tank  of  Avater  already? 

Mr.  Goulding:  No,  so  far  we  have  used  about  half  a  tank 
there,  but  we  come  to  a  house  track  at  B.  &  0.  Junction  Avhere 
We  have  an  hour's  w^ork  to  do,  in  the  neighborhood  of  an  hour's 
work,  maybe  more;  we  cannot  tell  just  how  much  work  we  have, 
so  we  go  provided  Avith  Avater. 

Mr.  Stone:     You  cut  off  your  engine  from  the  train? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     To  get  Avater? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  are  not  alloAved  to  stop  your  train  at  the 
water  tank,  Avitli  youi-  train,  that  is,  you  must  cut  off? 

Mr.  Goulding:     At  tliat  point  Ave  are  not  alloAved  to  stop 
unless  Ave  make  the  stop  on  the  first  stoj),  but  then  we  have  to 
cut  63rd  Street,  the  Avater  plug  is  just  the  other  side  of  the 
'street. 
■    ''^Mr.  Stone:     That  is  at  the  end  of  the  doul)le  track? 


L&&ftvv  nL-^ 


769 

AJr.  (ionlding:     No.  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Oh,  you  don't  come  to  the  end  of  the  double 
track  until  further  down? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No.  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     After  you  have  taken  water  what  do  you  do? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Proceed  to  B.  &  0.  Junction. 

Mr.  Stone:     How  far  is  that! 

Mr.  Goulding:     About  a  couple  of  miles;  maybe  a  mile. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  have  to  get  orders  before  you  get  to  B. 
&  0.  Junction,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Don't  you  get  orders  at  Evergreen  Parkf 

Mr.  Goulding:  Yes,  but  that  is  away  beyond  B.  c^  0. 
Junction. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  away  the  other  side? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  do  you  do  after  you  leave  B.  &  0.  Junc- 
tion? 

Mr.  Goulding:  At  the  house  track  at  B.  &  0.  Junction,  we 
have  work  there.  We  put  in  cars  and  get  out  cars  there.  Then 
we  couple  uj)  and  proceed  to  Evergreen  Park,  the  end  of  the 
double  track. 

Mr.  Stone:  All  right.  Go  ahead  and  tell  them  what  you 
do. 

Mr.  Goulding:  We  get  running  orders  and  proceed  then 
to  Harvev  Junction,  where  we  fill  our  tanks  w^itli  w^ater  and  take 
a  small  supply  of  coal,  and  then  proceed  to  Barr  Yard,  where 
we  set  out  two  different  places,  and  sometimes  pick  up. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Goulding,  will  you  please  talk  a  little  bit 
louder  and  a  little  bit  more  distinctl}^,  so  they  can  hear  you? 
It  is  remarkable,  how  you  engineers  when  you  get  oft'  of  your 
engines  talk  so  low,  while  on  your  engines  they  can  hear  you 
a  half  a  block.  So  just  raise  the  damper  and  put  on  the  loud 
stop.    Go  ahead  now. 

Mr.  Goulding:  After  picking  up  we  proceed  to  either  East 
Chicago  or  Whiting,  Indiana. 

Mr.  Stone:     How  far  is  that? 

Mr.  Goulding:  About  eleven  miles;  that  is  the  end  of  our 
trip.    That  is  the  turning  point,  I  mean  to  say. 


770 

Mr.  Stoue:  TTsuallv  how  maiiv  hours  are  vou  in  luakiiiir 
tliis  trip  down  to  there? 

Mr.  Gouldin^':  AVoll,  ahoiit  six  lionrs,  in  tlic  nrialiborliood 
of  six  or  seven  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:     Then,  you  start  on  your  return  trip? 

Mr.  Goulding':  Then,  we  go  to  Wliiting  and  .couple  up  our 
train,  ])uni])  it  up,  ch^an  our  fire,  and  then  we  are  ready  to  start 
on  the  return  trip. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  making-  tliis  trip  down  to  Wliiting,  how 
many  ditTei-ent  roads  do  you  deliver  ears  to? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Why,  we  don't  deliver  to  any  different 
roads  going  south  towards  Whiting.  We  set  out  at  B.  &  0. 
Junction  at  the  house  track,  and  at  Barr  Yard.  That  is  in  our 
own  yard. 

Ml'.  Stone:  All  right,  leaving  Whiting  and  coming  back, 
what  do  you  do? 

Mr.  Goulding:  We  proceed  to  Barr  Yard,  where  we  fill  out 
in  our  train.  (Joui)le  up  our  train,  double  it  up,  get  coal  and 
water,  orders,  and  proceed  to  Evergreen  Park,  the  end  of  the 
double  track.  Then  to  B.  &  0.  Junction,  where  we  deliver  to  a 
connecting  line,  the  AVabash  Railroad.  Then  we  set  out  cars  at 
51  st  Street,  which  is  short  cars,  team  track  work. 

Mr.  Stone:  Also  the  Chicago  &  Alton;  do  you  strike  the 
Chicago  &  Alton  at  51st  street? 

Mr.  Goulding:  No,  sir;  we  set  cars  in  the  joint  track  at 
Brighton  Park  for  the  Chicago  &  Alton.  Make  deliveries  to  the 
stock  yards  at  Brighton  Park,  to  the  C.  J.  Railroad.  Then  the 
next  deliveries  we  make  are  to  the  Chicago,  Burlington  &  Quincy 
Railroad ;  and  then  the  North  Western  Railroad. 

Then  the  Homan  avenue  yards  of  the  Soo  Line  at  that 
])oint. 

Then  at  48th  avenue  vard,  and  we  deliver  there  to  the 
Great  Western  Railroad  and  the  Chicago  Belt. 

Then  we  have  crews  that  deliver  to  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee 
&  St.  Paul,  at  Galewood,  a  distance  of  about  eight  miles  out 
there,  I  should  judge. 

After  we  make  our  delivery  at  the  Chicago  Belt,  why,  we 
rrturn  about  two  miles  to  Robey  street,  where  we  tie  up. 

Mr.  Stone:     AVhat  is  the  actual  distance  run  in  this  trip? 


771 

Mr.  Goulding:  About  60  miles  on  my  run,  an  average  of 
about  60  miles. 

Mr.  Stone:     About  how  many  hours  do  you  work  daily? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Well,  it  will  average  fourteen  hours  and 
fifty  minutes. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  was  your  average  for  the  month  of  No- 
vember ? 

Mr.  Goulding :     For  the  month  of  November,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Then,  going  to  work  at  one  o  'clock,  you  would 
get  back  some  time  in  the  afternoon  at,  say,  three  or  half  past 
three  o'clock? 

Mr.  Goulding :     2 :30  or  3  o  'clock,  along  there ;  maybe  3 :30. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  then  you  are  required  to  get  your  meal,  get 
your  necessary  sleep,  and  again  call  yourself  and  go  to  work 
at  11:30  that  same  night? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  don 't  get  much  time  for  recreation  unless 
you  lay  off,  do  you? 

Mr.  Goulding :  That  is  the  only  time,  or  on  Mondays ;  we 
have  one  day  a  week. 

Mr.  Stone:  Don't  you  use  most  of  Monday  trying  to  catch 
up  on  sleep  you  have  lost  the  rest  of  the  week? 

Mr.  Goulding :    Yes,  we  do. 

Mr.  Stone:  Working  under  those  conditions,  it  is  impos- 
sible for  you  to  go  anywhere  with  your  family  in  the  evening, 
is  it  not? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  we  cannot  go  any  place. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  that  is  the  best  run  that  you  are  entitled 
to  after  all  these  years  of  service? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Your  agreement  provides  that  ten  hours  or 
less  will  constitute  a  dav's  work,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  After  your  arrival  at  a  terminal,  do  you  have 
any  time  for  inspection  and  making  out  reports? 

Mr.  Goulding:  We  have  thirty  minutes  to  inspect  our 
engines. 

Mr.  Stone:     Thirty  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 


772 

Mr.  IStoiie:  Duriiii?  this  foiirtocii-liour  ihm'hxI,  aro  you  re- 
leased any  time  foj*  meals  ? 

Mr.  Goulding :  Why,  we  have  no  meal  hour  on  those  runs. 
We  clean  our  fires  and  eat  when  we  can  durin«j:  the  half  hour 
that  the  train  crew  cats.     They  have  thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  tiain  crew  is  allowed  thirty  minutes  off 
duty  for  eatine::' 

Mr.  (n)uldin,u  :  Tiiey  are  allowed  thirty  minutes  for  eat- 
ing; 1  don't  know  whether  they  are  allowed  otf  duty  or  not. 
They  all  carry  lunches. 

Mr.  Stone :  There  is  no  place  for  you  to  get  a  warm  meal 
during  that  time,  is  there? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  sir,  there  is  not. 

^Ir.  Stone:     You  must  carry  a  lunch  bucket  every  time? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir,  we  always  carry  a  lunch  bucket. 

Mr.  Stone:  So,  after  twenty  years  of  railroading,  you  are 
still  eating  out  of  a  lunch  bucket;  no  warm  meal?  You  haven't 
got  up  to  one  of  those  fancy  preferred  runs  they  talk  about, 
where  you  get  $350  and  only  work  four  hours  f 

Mr.  Goulding :     No,  I  have  not  reached  that  yet. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  vou  ever  make  this  dav  in  less  than  ten 
hours  ? 

Mr.  Goulding :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Never? 

Mr.  Goulding :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then,  can  it  be  taken  as  a  fair  average  that 
what  you  show  here  for  the  month  of  November  is  a  fair  esti- 
mate of  the  time  you  usually  work? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Y"es,  sir,  a  fair  average. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  notice  on  the  November  report  you  show 
twentv  davs  actuallv  worked. 

Mr.  Goulding :     Twenty-one. 

Mr.  Stone:     Twenty-one  days  actually  worked? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Y"es. 

Mr.  Stone :  What  is  the  reason  you  did  not  work  the  rest 
of  the  time? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Why,  I  laid  off  on  my  own  accord. 

Mr.  Stone:     To  rest  up? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Yes.  One  or  tw^o  days,  I  forget  just  which 
now. 


t73 

Mr.  Stone:     And  there  were  four  Sundays? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Yes ;  and  then  I  think  there  was  a  holiday. 

Mr.  Stone:     One  holiday. 

Mr.  Ooiildinii':  Ves,  Thanks,<;ivin,i;',  I  think  I  was  off  that 
day. 

Air.  Stone:  I  see,  on  November  1st  you  were  on  duty 
twelve  hours  and  ten  minutes,  which,  with  one  hour  preparatory 
time,  made  thirteen  hours  and  ten  minutes,  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Goulding':     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  ( )n  November  third  you  were  on  duty  thirteen 
hours  and  thirty  minutes,  which,  with  one  hour's  preparatory 
time,  made  fourteen  hours  and  thirty  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  4tli  you  were  on  duty  fourteen  hours 
and  twenty-live  minutes,  which,  with  one  hour's  preparatory 
time,  made  fifteen  hours  and  twenty-five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Y"es,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  AVhen  I  say  one  hour's  preparatory  time,  I 
mean  thirty  minutes  before  and  thirty  minutes  after. 

Mr.  Goulding:     Y^es,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Again,  on  the  5th,  you  were  on  duty  thirteen 
hours  and  twenty-five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Y'^es,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  And,  adding  one  hour's  preparatory  time,  that 
would  make  fourteen  hours  and  twenty-five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Y^es,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  6tli  you  were  on  duty  fourteen  hours 
and  ten  minutes,  and  one  hour  added,  making  a  total  of  fifteen 
hours  and  ten  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  7th  you  were  on  duty  thirteen  hours 
and  twenty-five  minutes,  plus  one  hour,  fourteen  hours  and 
twenty- five  minutes  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  8th  you  were  on  duty  fourteen  hours, 
13lus  one  hour's  preparatory  time,  total  of  fifteen  hours? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  10th,  thirteen  hours  and  fifty  minutes, 
plus  one  hour,  fourteen  hours  and  fifty  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding': "  'Yes,  sir.  '  "■"■ 


774 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  11th,  fourteen  hours  and  fifty  minutes, 
plus  one  hour,  fifteen  hours  and  fifty  minutes. 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  12th,  fourteen  hours  and  thirty-five 
minutes,  plus  one  hour's  preparatory  time,  fifteen  hours  and 
thirty-five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding':  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  14th  you  were  on  duty  thirteen  hours 
and  twenty-five  minutes,  plus  one  hour,  fourteen  hours  and 
twenty-five  minutes  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  siV. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  15th  you  were  on  duty  fourteen  hours 
and  twenty-five  minutes,  plus  one  hour,  fifteen  hours  and  twenty- 
five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  17tli  you  were  on  duty  fourteen  hours 
and  five  minutes,  plus  one  hour,  fifteen  hours  and  five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  18th  you  were  on  duty  fourteen  hours 
and  fifty-five  minutes,  plus  one  hour,  making  fifteen  hours  and 
fifty-five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  19th  you  were  on  duty  fourteen  hours 
and  fifty  minutes,  plus  one  hour,  making  fifteen  hours  and  fifty 
minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  And,  on  the  20tli,  vou  were  on  dutv  fourteen 
hours  and  forty-five  minutes,  plus  one  hour,  making  fifteen  hours 
and  forty-five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  21st  you  were  on  duty  thirteen  hours 
and  forty-five  minutes,  plus  one  hour's  preparatory  time,  four- 
teen hours  and  forty- five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  22nd  you  were  on  duty  twelve  hours 
and  thirty-five  minutes,  plus  one  hour,  thirteen  hours  and  thirty - 
five  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  26th,  twelve  hours  and  thirty  minutes, 
plus  one  hour,  thirteen  hours  and  thirty  minutes? 


77^ 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  28th,  on  duty  thirteen  hours  and  forty 
minutes,  plus  one  hour's  preparatory  time,  fourteen  hours  and 
forty  minutes? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  the  29th,  thirteen  hours  and  twenty  min- 
utes, plus  one  hour,  fourteen  hours  and  twenty  minutes? 

If  my  computation  is  correct,  this  makes  a  total  of  311  hours 
and  35  minutes  for  the  21  days'  time? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Or  a  total  daily  average  of  fourteen  hours  and 
fifty  minutes  on  duty? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     And  you  received  for  that  $140.15? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  making  these  movements  around  to  these  dif- 
ferent roads,  are  they  on  the  main  line  of  those  roads,  do  you 
come  on  the  main  line  of  any  of  these  roads  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:  In  making  a  delivery  to  the  St.  Paul  Eoad 
we  run  over  the  Pan  Handle  two  or  three  miles,  and  then — 

Mr.  Stone :  When  you  say  Pan  Handle  you  mean  the  Penn- 
sylvania lines? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Over  their  main  line? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Are  you  examined  on  the  signal  rules  in  these 
other  roads? 

Mr.  Goulding :  No,  sir.  We  have  to  be  familiar  with  their 
different  signals  and  everything  in  their  line,  the  same  as  their 
own  men,  almost.    We  are  working  mostly  on  block  signals. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  would  happen  if  you  detained  one  of 
their  fast  passenger  trains  while  making  a  main  line  movement? 

Mr.  Goulding :  It  would  be  up  to  their  train  director.  At 
each  end  of  their  line  where  we  run,  I  think  they  have  a  train 
director  or  tower  man  who  handles  it,  mostly. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  come  in  contact  with  any  other  main 
lines? 

Mr.  Goulding:  With  the  Stock  Yards  track,  we  go  over 
their  tracks  down  in  there  to  make  deliveries. 

Mr.  Stone :    What  I  mean  is  this,  Mr.  Goulding :  in  making 


77G 

a  transtVr  to  the  lUiiliii^lon  or  tlu'  North  Western,  or  the 
Wal)asli  or  the  (Jreat  Western,  do  you  go  over  their  main  line  in 
any  way  at  all,  do  you  come  onto  their  main  line? 

Ml'.  Goulding:  Not  liere  of  late.  We  always  delivered  at 
Hawthorne  on  the  lUirlinnton,  l)ut  here  of  late  tlu'y  liave  cut  us 
out  at  Wood  street  yard.  We  do  not  come  on  their  main  line, 
just  the  lead  going  into  the  yard  in  and  out,  running  tracks. 

.Mr.  Stone:     I  tliink  that  is  all,  Mr.  Sheean. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  Mr.  Goulding,  tlie  road  that  you  are  working 
for,  the  Baltimore  «S:  Ohio  Chicago  Terminal,  is  the  road  for- 
merly known  as  the  Ciucago  Terminal  Transfer  Railroad  Com- 
]niny  ? 

Mr.  (ioulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  it  is,  as  its  name  implies,  a  transfer 
comjiany  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Transfer,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Having  about  what  mileage? 

Mr.  (lOulding:  It  is  about  thirty  miles  long,  that  is  from 
our  starting  i)oint  at  Whiting  to  14th  Street  here,  or  Chicago 
depot,  runs  about  thirty  miles  long. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Do  you  know  how  many  passenger  trains  are 
lun  on  that  system? 

Mr.  Goulding:  I  think  there  are  about  sixty-odd  go  into 
the  dei)ot. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  I  am  talking  about  any  passenger  trains  run 
into  the  terminal. 

Mr.  Goulding:     Their  own  trains? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes. 

Mr.  (lOulding:  They  have  two  each  way  daily,  suburban 
runs. 

Mr.  Sheean :  During  all  the  time  that  you  were  with  the 
Chicago  Terminal  Transfer  Railroad  Company  it  was  a  freight 
switching  road,  or  freight  transfer  road,  was  it  not? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Yes,  sir,  and  suburban  service.  They  have 
B.  &  0.  main  line  trains  running  out  of  the  terminal  there,  too. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  I  understand  it,  Mr.  Goulding,  the  Chi- 
cago Terminal  Transfer  Railroad  Company  for  which  you 
worked  before  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio  Chicago  Terminal  Transfer 


777 

Kailroad  Company  was  organized,  rents  trackage  rights  to  cer- 
tain companies  which  come  in  over  those  tracks? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  yon  have  no  seniority  on  any  of  the  tenant 
lines! 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  operation  of  that  terminal  transfer 
company,  practically  all  of  its  service  is  this  transfer  service 
between  different  railroads? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Different  railroads. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Practically  all  of  these  deliveries  that  you 
make  on  this  trip  from  Chicago  to  Whiting  are  using  the  main 
tracks  of  the  Terminal  Company,  are  they  not? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Yes,  sir,  we  are  connected  with  all  our  main 
tracks. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  set  out  cars  if  you  have  them,  and 
pick  up  other  cars?  > 

Mr.  Goulding:  No,  sir,  we  have  a  train  made  up  coming 
north  to  make  just  deliveries.  We  do  not  pick  up  any  going 
north,  just  deliver  to  these  different  lines,  and  then  go  on  until 
we  get  through,  then  we  turn  in. 

Mr.  Sheean:  On  the  northbound  trip  it  is  entirely  a  de- 
livery trip  to  the  different  connections. 

Mr.  Goulding:  Yes,  sir,  also  south,  but  we  do  not  deliver 
to  any  foreign  line  going  south.    We  pick  up  and  set  out. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  of  these  movements  from  Chicago  to 
Whiting,  and  from  Whiting  back  to  Chicago  are  made  under 
block,  aren't  they? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Except  the  single  track. 

Mr.  Sheean:  How  long  is  that  single  track  over  which  you 
go? 

Mr.  Goulding:  About  four  miles,  somewhere  in  that  neigh- 
borhood. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  it? 

Mr.  Goulding:  About  four  miles.  Understand,  the  block 
system  is  just  between  Chicago  and  the  B.  &  O.  Junction.  That 
quits  there.  The  other  part  of  the  road  is  here  and  there 
blocked.    There  is  only  one  block,  and  that  is  at  Barr  Yat-d.   ' 

Mr.  Sheean :    At  the  Barr  Yard '! 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  an  automatic  l)lock,  until  we  strike  the 


778 

state  line.     Then  we  have  a  block  system  from  there  to  Pine 
Junction. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Goulding,  there  isn't  any  difference  in  the 
operating  conditions  here  on  the  Terminal  Railroad,  any  differ- 
ence in  the  operation  of  this  month,  November,  1914,  from  what 
they  were  in  1910? 

Mr.  Gonlding:  No,  I  cannot  see  any  difference.  It  is  about 
the  same  work  all  along. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  run  that  you  make  is  practically  the 
same  run  that  you  were  making  then? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  take  it  that  you  have  one  of  these  five  desig- 
nated engines  as  to  which  an  allowance  of  thirty  minutes  is 
made  for  preparation  and  for  care  at  the  end? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Yes,  we  have  some  other  B.  &  0.  engines 
over  here  now,  about  the  same  size  or  type,  about  ten  of  them 
altogether,  I  guess. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  schedule  there  are  certain  engines 
named,  five  engines? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     1966  to  1971? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     You  have  your  own  engine? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  same  engine  day  in  and  day  out? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  it  is  one  of  these  designated  five,  is  itf 

Mr.  Goulding:  1968,  I  have,  on  this  particular  run.  The 
others  are  pooled. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  had  1968  back  on  December  24,  1910, 
did  you? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Xo,  I  had  1971  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:     About  how  long  have  you  had  this  1968? 

Mr.  Goulding:  I  have  been  on  this  run  about  five  months, 
on  which  I  have  had  1968. 

Mr.  Slieean:  Before  that,  just  what  was  your  run,  Mr. 
Goulding? 

Mr.  Goulding:  I  had  everything.  I  was  in  the  pool  then 
for  a  short  time,  and  then  after  I  had  one  regular  run,  they  gave 


779 

me  2740,  that  is  a  B.  &  0.  engine,  out  of  East  Chicago,  for  a  short 
time. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  $140.15  that  you  earned  in  the  month  of 
November  is  about  what  that  run  pays  from  month  to  month? 

Mr.  Goulding:    For  that  many  days,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  twenty-one  days? 

Mr.  Goulding;    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  think  that  is  a  fair  average  for  the  num- 
ber of  days  that  you  worked  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:    A  fair  average  right  along. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  the  pay  is  also  a  fair  average? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Understand  I  work  more  days  than  that, 
sometimes.  Sometimes  I  make  twenty-three  or  twenty-four  days, 
twenty-five  days,  maybe. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  entirely  optional  with  you,  isn't  it, 
Mr.  Goulding? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  to  whether  it  would  be  twenty-one  or 
twenty-three,  twenty-four,  or  twenty-five? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  taking  twenty-one  days  as  the  days 
worked  during  the  month,  about  $140  is  a  fair  average  as  the 
pay  for  a  month  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  all. 

EEDIRECT   EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone :  Mr.  Goulding,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  Balti- 
more &  Ohio  Railroad  owns  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio  Chicago  Ter- 
minal ? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Well,  that  is  too  deep  for  me.  I  don't  know 
who  owns  it.  It  has  been  sold  so  many  times  that  I  don't  know 
where  we  are  at. 

Mr.  Stone :  Well,  you  know  one  thing,  don 't  you,  that  you 
pay  relief  to  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  are  a  member  of  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio 
Relief  Association? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Yes,  sir. 


780 

Mr.  Stone:  I  am  not  sure  whether  I  asked  you  what  is 
your  rate  for  the  first  ten  Iiours ;  what  do  you  get  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:     $4.50. 

Mr.  Stone:     And  45  cents  an  hour  overtime f 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     No  higher  rate  for  overtime? 

Mr.  Goulding :     No  higher  rate. 

Mr.  Stone :  Do  you  have  any  of  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio  road 
engines  in  your  switching  service  f 

Mr.  Goulding :  We  have  them  in  the  transfer  service ;  they 
use  them  at  times  for  switching;  not  very  often. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  this  transfer  run,  when  these  Baltimore  & 
Ohio  engines  are  used,  these  road  engines,  are  they  built  pur- 
posely for  transfer  work! 

Mr.  Goulding:  They  are  regular  road  engines  as  used  on 
the  road  on  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  find  it  harder  to  do  work  with  that 
type  of  engine  than  you  do  with  an  engine  regularly  equipped 
for  switching? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Explain  to  the  Board  why  it  is  harder? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Why,  they  have  got  a  very  low  cab.  The 
engine  is  all  right  to  work,  working  with  the  front  end  of  it, 
but  with  the  back  end  it  is  a  very  hard  matter  for  a  man  to 
handle  the  engine  and  watch  signals.  The  cab  is  low  and  they 
are  not  equipped  for  that  at  all.  They  are  awkward  in  every 
way.  When  you  handle  the  throttle,  you  miss  the  signals,  and  it 
is  hard  work  to  get  in  and  out  of  the  windows  backing  up. 
The  tanks  are  high  and  you  cannot  see  over.  Some  of  them 
you  can  see  over  pretty  good,  but  others  you  cannot. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  believe  you  said,  in  reply  to  a  question,  that 
it  was  o})tional  with  you  whether  you  worked  21  or  24  or  25  days 
— is  it  optional  or  is  it  a  question  of  endurance? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Why,  what  I  understand  by  that  is  I  can 
work  the  26  working  davs  if  I  want,  or  1  can  lav  off. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  can  work  the  2fi  working  days  if  you  can 
stand  it  to  work  that  much? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Isn  't  it  a  fact  in  this  month  of  November,  where 
you  worked  only  21  days,  that  you  worked  311  hours  and  thirty 


781 

some  minutes,  that  you  worked  over  thirty-nine  days  of  eight 
hours  in  that  time? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  that  comes  pretty  near  being  double  time. 
If  you  had  been  a  hod  carrier,  you  would  have  had  in  two 
months  work  at  that,  at  a  higher  rate,  in  the  city  of  Chicago. 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     I  think  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Did  I  understand  you  to  say,  Mr.  Goulding, 
that  this  transfer  property  was  31  miles  long,  or  30? 

Mr.  Goulding:     It  is  about  30  miles  long. 

Mr.  Burgess :  In  using  this  fourteen  hours  and  thirty  min- 
utes, does  it  require  that  time  to  make  the  round  trip? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Burgess:     You  only  make  one  round  trip? 

Mr.  Goulding:     One  round  trip  a  day;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Would  it  be  possible  to  relieve  you  at  the 
expiration  of  the  ten-hour  period? 

Mr.  Goulding:  Why,  I  don't  know  whether  it  would  or 
not.  They  would  have  to  make  some  awkward  changes  in  order 
to  do  that. 

Mr.  Burgess:  What  is  in  my  mind,  Mr.  Goulding,  could 
this  train  start  out  from  the  initial  point  and  get  back  in  ten 
hours,  if  the  work  that  the  train  is  required  to  do  was  differently 
arranged? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Wli.y,  I  don 't  think  it  could. 

Mr.  Burgess:     That  is  all. 

Mr,  Byram:  Mr.  Goulding,  are  there  any  better  runs  in 
the  service  of  the  Baltimore  &  Ohio  Terminal  than  the  one  you 
have — are  there  better  runs? 

Mr.  Goulding:  No,  sir,  I  have  got  about  as  good  a  run  as 
they  have  got,  outside  of  the  suburban  runs. 

Mr.  Byram:     And  j^ou  selected  this  run? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Byram:  Because  you  had  the  seniority  which  entitled 
you  to  select  it? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Byram :  I  suppose  there  are  some  runs  that  are  not 
quite  so  satisfactory? 

Mr.  Goulding:     There  are  runs  from  the  other  end  of  the 


782 

road  that  are  a  little  better  tliau  mine,  which  are  daylight  jobs, 
but  I  am  not  old  enough  to  hold  one  of  them. 

Mr.  Byram:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Shea:  Mr.  Goulding,  how  many  hours  constitute  a 
day's  work  for  an  engineer  on  your  road,  according  to  the  En- 
gineers' Agreement? 

Mr.  Goulding :     Ten  hours  or  less. 

Mr.  Shea :  I  understood  you  to  say  you  averaged  14  hours 
and  50  minutes  for  the  month  of  November. 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Shea:     And  work  20  days? 
Mr.  Goulding:     21  davs. 
Mr.  Shea:     21  days? 
Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea:  Now.  assuming  that  you  completed  your  day's 
work  at  the  expiration  of  ten  hours,  allowing  one  hour  for 
preparatory  time,  that  is  thirty  minutes  for  the  initial  trip  and 
thirty  minutes  at  the  completion  of  your  trip — 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea:     You  would  not  make  $140.15,  would  you? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea  :  As  a  matter  of  fact,  you  would  only  be  making 
$113.95? 

Mr.  Goulding:     About  that. 

Mr.  Sliea:  Now,  supposing  you  were  permitted,  under 
your  contract  to  complete  your  day's  work  at  the  expiration  of, 
the  ten  hours,  plus  one  hour  preparatory  time,  and  you  worked 
the  full  month,  26  days,  you  would  not  even  then  make  $140.15, 
would  you? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea :  As  a  matter  of  fact,  you  would  only  make 
$128.70? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea :  So,  then,  in  order  to  make  this  monthly  wage, 
$140.15,  you  are  compelled,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  to  make  that  in 
overtime? 

Mr.  Goulding :     In  overtime,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Park :    Mr.  Goulding,  I  understood  you  to  say,  that  on 


783 

the  lirst  tri})  yon  run  tliiougli  to  Wliitiiig,  without  doing  any- 
work  ? 

Mr.  Goulding :  No,  sir.  We  do  work  at  B.  &  0.  Junction ; 
we  spot  ears  at  the  house  track  and  pick  up  cars  out  of  there. 

Mr.  Park:     What  time  do  you  usually  get  to  Whiting? 

Mr.  Gonldiug:  Well,  it  averages  along  from  7  o'clock  and 
8  o'clock,  and  8:30;  sometimes  9  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Mr.  Park:     Do  you  have  a  regular  time  to  leave  there! 

Mr.  Moulding:     Sir? 

Mr.  Park:  Do  you  have  a  regular  time  to  leave  Whiting 
on  the  return  trip  ? 

Mr.  Goulding :  No,  sir,  whenever  w^e  are  ready  to  go  back, 
we  get  ready  to  go  back. 

Mr.  Park:     How  much  coal  do  you  burn  on  the  round  trip? 

Mr.  Goulding :  I  couldn't  tell  you  exactly ;  it  will  run  along 
maybe  ten  tons,  ten  or  twelve  tons. 

Mr.  Park:  Do  you  take  coal  on  the  trip,  at  AVhiting,  or 
intermediate  ? 

Mr.  Goulding :  We  take  our  coal  on  those  runs  in  the  mid- 
dle of  the  road,  that  is,  at  Bine  Island;  and  we  don't  take  it  at 
either  end. 

Mr.  Park :  Do  you  think  a  switch  engine  would  be  prefer- 
able to  a  road  engine  on  those  transfer  trains? 

Mr.  Goulding :  Do  you  mean  a  switch  engine  would  be  bet- 
ter on  those  trains  than  a  road  engine  f 

Mr.  Park :     Yes,  than  a  road  engine. 

Mr.  Goulding:  No,  sir,  not  on  those  trains. 

Mr.  Park  r    That  is  all. 

Mr.  Sheean :  If  I  might  be  permitted,  I  forgot  to  ask  Mr. 
Goulding  one  thing;  when  you  spoke,  Mr.  Goulding,  of  taking 
your  time  for  a  meal,  you  are  on  continuous  time  on  this  run,  are 
you  not? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that  whatever  time  you  take,  if  you  take  a 
half  hour  for  lunch  at  the  other  ejid  of  the  line,  the  company 
pays  you? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     During  that  time? 

Mr.  Goulding:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     These  runs,  when  vou  were  asked  about  the 


784 

ten-hour  day,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  these  engines  that  you  run  are 
specified  on  an  hourly  basis  of  45  cents  an  hour? 

Mr.  Goukling:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  *'AVill  be  ])ai<l  on  the  basis  of  45  cents  per 
hour,  and  will  be  allowed  thirty  minutes  before  leaving,  and 
thirty  minutes  after  arrival  to  examine  engines,"  of  these  five 
named  engines? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that,  on  the  run  you  have  described  liere, 
the  pay  is  and  always  has  been  so  much  per  hour? 

Mr.  Goulding:  So  much  per  hour.  The  wording  is,  if  the 
miles  would  exceed  the  hours,  why,  we  could  put  in  the  miles. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes. 

Mr.  Goulding:  We  have  always  worked  on  the  hourly 
basis. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Goulding,  I  think  you  said  to  Mr.  Park, 
that  a  road  engine  was  preferable  for  this  job.  Is  it  not  a  fact 
that  this  is  really  freight  work,  road  freight  work? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  pull  a  caboose  and  you  handle  a  crew,  just 
the  same  as  though  you  were  a  freight  train? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     And  you  have  running  orders? 

Mr.  Goulding:  AVe  have  running  orders,  the  same  as  any 
other  trunk  line. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  only  thing  tliat  differentiates  it  from  a 
freight  run  is  the  pay?    You  are  paid  a  transfer  rate? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Paid  the  transfer  rate,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Goulding,  do  you  know  whether  any  of 
the  members  of  that  crew,  whether  engineer,  fireman,  or  the 
trainman,  are  ])aid  through  freight  rates? 

Mr.  Goulding:     No. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  a'ou  have  on  this  transfer  line  or  run  anv 
through  freights  operating,  except  the  one  you  have  described  ? 

Mr.  Goulding:     On  our  line? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes. 

Mr.  Goulding:     No  through  freight  rate  that  I  know  of. 


785 

Mr.  8h«^eaii:  And  there  is  a  special  transfer  rate  that  is 
paid  there? 

Mr.  GoiiJding':     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Intermediate  between  switchinii-  and  through 
freight,  is  it? 

Mr.  Gonlding:     Why,  it  is  called  transfer. 

Mr.  Sheean:     It  is  called  a  transfer  rate! 

Mr.  Gonlding:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  this  so-called  transfer  or 
switching  rate  is  a  higher  rate  than  is  paid  to  road  men  in  freight 
service,  for  the  train  crew? 

Mr.  (xonlding:     I  don't  understand  that  question. 

Mr.  Stone:  Does  not  your  switch  crew  that  j^ou  handle, 
receive  a  higher  hourly  rate  than  the  road  rate  for  freight  men? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Y^'es,  sir,  I  believe  they  do. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  is  the  reason  why  thev  are  anxious  to 
have  it  still  kept  as  a  transfer  run? 

Mr.  Goulding:     Y^es,  sir, 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Mr.  Goulding,  during  the  time  you  are  eat- 
ing your  lunch,  this  thirty  minute  period,  are  you  relieved  of 
any  responsibility  of  the  engine  1 

Mr.  Goulding:     No,  sir'. 

Ml.  Burgess:     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman:     Call  your  next  witness,  Mr.  Stone. 

Mr.  Stone:     All  right,  Mr.  Goulding,  we  will  excuse  you. 

(Witness  excused.) 

Mr.  Stone:  Our  next  witness  will  be  Mr.  Skog  of  the  Great 
Northern  Railway,  from  Minneapolis. 

A.  SKOG  was  called  as  a  witness  and  having  been  duly 
sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Skog,  you  are  in  the  service  of  the  Great 
Northern  Railway  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Talk  a  little  louder,  please.  In  what  class  of 
service  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     Switching. 


786 

Mr.  Stone:     How  long  liave  you  been  in  tliis  service? 

Mr.  Skog:     Nineteen  years. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  class  of  engine  are  you  running? 

Mr.  Skog:     F-8  class,  as  we  have  them  in  our  schedule. 

Mr.  Stone:  Describe  this  engine;  what  typo  of  engine  is 
she,  Consolidation? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir,  she  is  a  Consolidation  witli  one  i)()ny 
truck. 

Mr.   Stone:     Wliat  is  the  weight? 

Mr.  Skog:  It  has  180,000  pounds  stenciled  on  the  side  of 
the  cab.     I  don't  know  whether  that  is  on  the  drivers. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  rate  of  pay  do  you  receive? 

Mr.  Skog:     $4.50,  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:     Ten  hours  or  less? 

Mr.  Skog:     Ten  hours  or  less,  yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     Do  you  have  any  preparatory  time? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     How  much? 

Mr.  Skog:  Fifteen  minutes  before  leaving  the  roundhouse 
lead. 

Mr.  Stone:     Any  final  terminal  time  after  arrival? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir,  fifteen  minutes.  That  is  for  inspection 
time. 

Mr.  Stone :     Has  your  late  of  pay  been  increased  since  1 910? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir,  since  the  1st  of  June,  1913. 

Mr.  Stone:     How  much  of  an  increase? 

Mr.  Skog:     25  cents  on  the  larger  type  of  engine. 

Mr.  Stone:     How  did  it  happen? 

Mr.  Skog:  Why,  our  committee  was  in,  and  the  company 
recognized  that  the  larger  engines  were  worth  more  to  I'un,  and 
we  got  25  cents  increase  on  them. 

Mr.  Stone:  Did  all  the  switch  engineers  in  that  terminal 
get  an  increase  ? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  sir:  only  those  that  were  on  the  large 
))ower. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  does  the  small  <*ngine  pay  .in  that  yard 
switching  service? 

Mr.  Skog:     $4.25. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then  there  is  a  differential  between  the  large 
and  small  engines,  so  far  as  pay  is  concerned? 


787 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  addition  to  that  you  have  another  rate  for 
the  Mallet  engine  in  switching  service,  have  you  not? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  is  that! 

Mr.  Skog:  $5.50  and  $5.25.  There  are  two  classes  of  Mal- 
lets ;  and,  also,  there  is  a  differential  on  the  Mikado  type  when 
used  in  yard  service.  They  are  25  cents  higher  than  the  F-8 
class,  I  just  spoke  of. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then  they  do  recognize  the  difference  when 
they  put  a  road  engine  into  yard  service? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir.  Well,  I  don't  know  as  it  would  be 
that.  Mr.  Stone.      It  is  the  size  of  the  engine,  too. 

Mr.  Stone :  Prior  to  1910,  were  there  any  engines  in  your 
yard  getting  the  $4.50  rate? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir;  I  think  there  were  two.  I  am  not 
certain — No,  how  did  you  put  that  question! 

Mr.  Stone:  Were  there  any  of  the  engines  that  now  bear 
the  $4.50  yard  rate  in  service  in  1910?  At  least,  that  is  the  way 
I  wanted  to  ask  it. 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  I  think  there  were  two  of  them  at  that 
time,  but,  of  course,  they  were  not  getting  the  rate ;  they  were 
getting  the  same  rate  as  the  small  engine. 

Mr.  Stone:     The  same  rate  as  the  small  engine? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then  this  differential  between  the  large  and 
small  engine  in  switch  service  has  come  about  since  1910? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :     Or,  to  be  exact,  in  June,  1913  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     June  1st,  1913,  the  schedule  was  changed. 

Mr.  Stone:  How  many  of  these  engines  that  took  this 
higher  rate  are  there  in  the  switching  service  at  the  present 
time? 

Mr.  Skog :  In  Minneapolis  yard,  I  think  there  are  six  there. 
Then,  there  are  some  in  St.  Paul;  I  don't  know  just  how  many 
there  are.  And  up  along  the  road,  I  don't  know  how  many 
there  are. 

Mr.  Stone:  This  agreement  provides  this  rate  on  two 
classes  of  engines  for  use  in  yard  service;  that  is,  this  higher 
rate  on  two  classes  of  engines? 


788 

Mr.  Skoii :  Well,  tlicrc  arc  three.  There  is  tlie  F-8  class, 
wliic'li  is  $4.5(1;  and  the  Mikado  type,  wliicli  is  $4.75;  and  the 
Mallet  type.  Tliere  arc  two  i-ates  for  the  Mallets,  $5.25  and 
$5.50. 

^Ir.  Stone:  And  there  is  still  another  rate  for  tlie  smaller 
engine  lower  than  $4.50;  that  is,  the  $4.25  rate.  Von  still  have 
the  $4.25  rate  on  the  small  engine!' 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  I  understand  that  yon  are  running  one  of 
tliese  larger  engines  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Do  yon  think  that  in  operating  one  of  these  hig 
engines  your  res))onsihilities  have  been  increased? 

Mr.  Skog:     I  think  they  have. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  wish  yon  would  explain  to  the  Board,  if  you 
will,  in  your  own  way,  in  what  way  your  responsibilities  have 
been  increased? 

Mr.  Skog:  AVhy,  ycm  handle  longer  strings  of  cars,  and 
it  is  more  difficult  to  get  and  interpret  the  signals  from  the 
switchmen,  because  they  are  further  aw^ay  from  you;  and,  in 
handling  the  air,  you  have  got  to  use  greater  care  in  order  to 
keep  from  breaking  in  two  and  pulling  out  a  draw-bar,  or  damag- 
ing the  equipment.  Tn  that  way,  I  think,  it  is  more  respon- 
sibility put  on  you. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then,  if  1  understand  you  correctly,  Mr.  Skog, 
you  are  getting  $4.50,  in  other  words,  the  same  rate  for  switch- 
ing in  Minneapolis,  that  Mr.  Goulding,  the  last  witness,  is  getting 
for  transfer  work  in  Chicago.    He  is  getting  $4.50. 

Mr.  Skog:     That  is  right;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Do  thev  have  anv  transfer  service  on  the  Great 
Northern  Railroad? 

Mr.  Skog :     Yes,  sir,  we  do. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  rate  is  paid  for  that? 

Mr.  Skog :  They  are  paid  the  regular  through  freight  rate, 
as  per  class  of  engine  used. 

Mr.  Stone:  Have  you  ever  run  a  switch  engine  in  the  night 
yanl' 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  think  it  is  worth  any  more  to  run  a 
switch  engine  at  night  than  it  is  in  the  day  time? 


789 


Mr.  8koi>':     I  do. 

Mr.  Stone:     Why? 

Mr.  Skog':  Why,  the  chances  we  have,  as  we  do,  ordinarily 
switchino-  on  a  lead,  of  cars  not  being-  into  clear,  while  in  the 
day  time  yon  conld  see  those  things  and  at  night  the  chances  are 
they  would  be  liable  to  corner  you,  shove  them  down  from  the 
other  end  of  the  track.  Another  thing,  it  is  an  unnatural  time  to 
work;  you  don't  have  much  time  with  your  family. 

Mr.  Stone:     Sleeping  in  day  time  and  w^orking  at  nights! 

Mr.  Skog:  AVell,  sleeping  in  the  day  time,  I  don't  know; 
I  could  never  sleep  very  well  in  the  day  time,  and  I  think  it  is 
the  same  case  with  a  great  many. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  case  of  the  hazard  you  spoke  of,  such  as 
accidents  in  cornering  cars,  and  so  forth,  jou  are  disciplined  for 
that,  just  the  same  as  though  it  happened  in  broad  daylight,  are 
v.ou  not! 

Mr.  Skog :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then  the  hazard  of  the  occupation  has  in- 
creased with  the  night  service? 

Mr.  Skog:  It  has.  And  also,  in  order  that  the  Board  can 
see  how  the  men  there  feel  about  it,  I  will  say  that  we  have  four- 
teen men  up  there  that  are  working  days.  All  of  those  fourteen 
men  or  any  one  of  those  fourteen  men  could  take  a  night  trans- 
fer run  because  we  hold  seniority  rights  to  the  night  transfer 
runs,  most  of  which  would  pay  $1.05  more  for  the  transfer  work, 
nights,  than  we  are  getting  for  the  work  we  are  doing  days,  but 
they  would  rather  take  the  lower  rate  in  order  to  work  days. 

Mr.  Stone:  At  the  present  time  your  switching  rate  isn't 
any  higher  for  night  work  than  it  is  for  the  day  work? 

Mr.  Skog :     No,  sir,  it  is  not. 

Mr.  Stone :  Although  the  hazard  is  increased  and,  in  your 
opinion,  the  work  is  harder? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir,  and  we  are  working  with  men — the 
men  we  are  working  with  are  getting*  a  higlier  rate  for  their  night 
work  than  their  day  work. 

Mr.  Stone:     How  much  higher,  do  you  know? 

Mr.  Skog :     I  am  not  sure,  but  I  think  it  is  twenty-five  cents. 

Mr.  Stone:     Two  and  one-half  cents  an  hour? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :     Then  it  is  very  evident,  if  your  statement  is 


790 

correct,  these  fourteen  men  at  Minneapolis  believe  that  there 
must  be  a  reason  for  the  differential  of  $1.05  a  day  between  the 
night  work  and  the  day  work  ? 

Mr.  Skog:  It  is,  because  I  am  one  of  those  fourteen  men. 
I  had  rather  work  for  the  lower  rate  daj^s  than  the  higher  rate 
nights. 

Mr.  Stone:  This  $1.05  comes  in,  as  1  understand,  because 
the  transfer  rate  is  the  through  freight  rate,  according  to  the 
class  of  engine  on  that  road? 

Mr.  Skog :  Yes,  sir,  and  we  have  seniority  rights  according 
to  our  schedule  for  those  transfer  runs. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  other  words,  if  your  seniority  entitled  you 
to  one  of  them,  you  could  bid  in  that  run  tomorrow,  if  it  was 
vacant ! 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  But  you  prefer  to  stay  on  the  day  switch  en- 
gine I 

Mr.  Skog:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     So  as  to  have  a  little  social  life? 

Mr.  Skog:  To  be  at  home  with  the  family;  otherwise,  if 
I  would  be  working  nights,  they  would  all  be  away  when  I  would 
get  home,  except  my  wife,  she  would  be  there. 

Mr.  Stone:     The  children  would  be  in  school,  probably? 

Mr.  Skog:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  And,  working  nights  on  the  transfer,  there 
would  not  be  a  single  night  you  could  take  your  family  and  go 
anywhere  and  have  any  recreation,  any  time? 

Mr.  Skog:  Not  very  well.  Of  course,  sometimes  they  don't 
work  on  Sunday  night. 

Mr.  Stone:     But  those  occasions  are  rare? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     I  think  that  is  all,  Mr.  Slieean. 


CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheeau:  Mr.  Skog,  I  am  not  entirely  clear  as  to 
whether  you  have  in  this  yard  where  you  are  working  other 
engines  on  which  there  is  paid  $4.25  a  day. 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     How  many? 

Mr.  Skog:     How  many  at  this  $4.25  rate? 


791 

Mr.  Slieean:     Yes. 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  we  are  working  about  thirty  engines,  yes, 
maybe  more,  night  and  day,  there,  and  out  of  tliose  there  are 
only  these  six  I  speak  of  that  are  the  large  engines. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  take  the  $4.50  rate? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes.  I  Avould  not  say  that  for  certain  whether 
it  is  six,  but  it  is  close  to  six.    I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Those  engines  were  put  into  yard  service 
back  as  far  as  1910? 

Mr.  Skog:  There  were  some  of  them  there,  but  they  have 
increased  since  that  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  take  it  from  what  you  have  said,  Mr.  Skog, 
about  seniority,  that  the  seniority  as  a  switching  engineer  is 
limited  to  the  yards  and  to  the  transfer  service? 

Mr.  Skog:     Transfer  service,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is,  you  have  grown  up  in  that  particular 
department? 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  our  rules  are,  if  you  are  in  the  yard  serv- 
ice, you  hold  senioritj^  rights  only  in  the  yard  and  in  the  transfer 
work. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  is  in  the  agreement  as  to  seniority 
on  the  Great  Northern  Eailroad? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  the  seniority  on  your  line  as  to  yard 
service  covers  transfer  service  as  well? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir,  on  the  terminal  division;  that  is,  Min- 
neapolis and  St.  Paul. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  is  the  transfer  service  you  speak  of 
there? 

Mr.  Skog:  It  is  runs  betAveen  Minneapolis  and  St.  Paul, 
Minneapolis  and  Hamlin  and  St.  Paul  and  Hamlin. 

Mr.  Sheean:     About  what  is  the  length  of  the  run  there? 

Mr.  Skog:  It  is  only  ten  miles  between  the  .cities.  They 
run  a  little  more  because  they  run — well,  out  to  Clearwater — 
well,  it  might  be  possibly  twelve  miles. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  seniority  district  of  you  yard  men 
just  covers  this  particular  transfer,  or  just  this  one  yard,  where 
you  work,  or  are  the  rights  interchangeable  in  the  Minneapolis 
vard  also? 


792 

^Ir.  vSkou:  They  are  iiitorchaii^eal)k'  oitlier  at  Minneapolis 
or  St.  Paul. 

Mr.  Slieeaii:  In  the  work  at  nights,  Mr.  Skoi;-,  tlic  move- 
ments made  by  the  eni>ineers  in  switchin<i:  service  ai<'  all  in 
response  to  the  signals  of  the  switchmen,  are  they  not? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  unless  you  get  a  string-  of  cars  that  are 
going  to  some  ))articular  jioint;  then,  of  course,  the  engine  is 
])robahly  ahead  and  you  have  got  to  go  according  to  the  sema- 
phores and  towermen  there  that  have  charge  of  the  track. 

Mr.  ISheean:  And  the  inability  to  see  at  night  whether  a 
particular  cut  of  cars  is  in  the  clear  or  not,  applies  to  road  crews 
just  as  well  as  those  in  the  yards,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Skog:  AVell,  the  road  crews  do  not  come  in  on  those 
leads  so  much. 

^[r.  Sheean:  1  am  not  talking  about  the  })arti(;ular  leads, 
but  the  road  man  in  going  along  and  making  his  run  cannot  tell 
whether  or  not  on  any  lead  or  switch  which  lie  may  pass  on  his 
entire  run — does  not  have  the  same  opportunity  at  night  as  he 
does  in  the  davtime  for  observing  the  conditions  on  the  track 
adjoining  that  on  which  lie  is  running? 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  the  road  man  ordinarily  comes  down  the 
main  line  and  the  yard  man — of  course  we  use  the  main  line  also 
to  a  great  extent,  but  we  switch  on  the  lead  and  they  switch 
from  both  ends  of  this  track  on  this  i)articular  lead.  Say  here  is 
the  lead  and  then  somebody  else  is  switching  off  the  lead  up  on 
this  end,  and  the  danger  of  those  fellows  shoving  cars  down,  and 
when  there  is  a  cut  conies  down  the  liability  to  strike  these  cars 
— or  i)ossibly  they  put  them  so  they  clear  only  a  foot — they  are 
pretty  close. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  every  case  in  the  operation  of  yards  at 
night,  the  foreman  or  the  man  in  the  field,  whichever  one  of  the 
switchmen  makes  that  particular  cut,  should  see  that  all  carsi 
ai«'  in  the  clear  when  they  are  switching  in  and  left? 

Mr.  Skog:     He  should,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     The  rules  require  that  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     The  rules  re(|uire  it,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  This  hazard  that  you  refer  to  is  only  in  case 
a  switchman  has  failed  pro])erly  to  perform  his  part  of  the 
work  f 

Mr.  Skog:     Understand,  when  we  are  switching  on  a  lead, 


793 

there  is  a  long  lead,  and,  where  the  engine  is,  there  is  nobody; 
that  is,  there  is  nobody,  no  switchman,  no  flagman  of  any  kind. 
The  switchmen  are  working  away  up  here.  I  am  working  down 
here  with  the  engine.  There  is  still  a  lot  of  tracks  coming  down 
this  lead,  and  those  are  the  ones  where  the  danger  is.  It  is  not 
up  here  where  these  switchmen  are. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  in  every  cut  of  cars  that  is  handled,  it  is 
the  duty  of  the  switchman  to  see  that  the  movement,  the  s\vitch- 
ing  movement  that  he  does,  does  not  get  out  on  the  lead  to 
endanger  other  movements. 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  extra  hazard  to  the  engineer,  of 
which  you  speak,  is  his  inability  at  all  times  to  see  whether  the 
SAvitchmen  have  properly  performed  their  work? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  far  as  the  engineer  is  concerned,  that  is 
the  only  additional  hazard  that  there  would  ])e  at  night  between 
day  and  night  work? 

Mr.  Skog:  I  don't  know.  It  seems  not  only  that,  but  it 
is  hard  to  see  switches  when  we  are  back  on  this  lead.  Under- 
stand, there  would  be  nobody  on  the  rear  end  of  the  tank.  If 
there  is  anyone  w^ho  has  left  his  switch  wrong  l:)eliind  there,  it 
is  pretty  hard  to  see. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Inability  to  see  switch  lights,  I  suppose,  would 
obtain  on  the  main  line  just  as  well  as  it  would  in  yards? 

Mr.  Skog:  There  are  no  lights  at  all,  understand;  there 
are  no  lights  on  the  switches  there. 

Mr.  Sheean :     You  mean  dwarf  switches  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  there  are  no  lights  whatever. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Is  it  the  practice  to  make  movements  crossing 
over  switches,  to  make  a  movement  of  any  length  without  having 
any  switchmen  on  the— 

Mr.  Skog:     Crossing  over  the  main  line,  you  mean! 

Mr.  Sheean:  .  Yes. 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  we  have  switch  lights  on  the  main  line 
switches. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  the  night  work,  in  the  yard,  Mr.  Skog,  the 
switchman  is  generally  upon  the  ground  and  actually  directing 
the  cut  of  cars,  and  there  is  no  greater  hazard  in  and  about 
their  work  than  the  dav  men's! 


794 

Mr.  Skog:     Day  switchmen? 

Mr.  Sheean :     Day  switchmen,  yes. 

Mr.  Skog :     Yes ;  I  think  there  is. 

Mr.  Sheean:  They  are  practically  the  ones  who  direct  all 
of  the  movement  of  the  cars  to  move  around  at  night  from 
one  to  the  other  part  of  the  yard,  in  signalling  the  engineer? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     As  to  the  movements? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  only  additional  hazard  that  the  man  in 
the  cab  has,  in  night  work  in  the  yard,  is  the  possibility  that  on 
some  forward  movement  he  may  find  some  car  has  been  im- 
properly left  not  in  the  clear,  by  the  switchman! 

Mr.  Skog :  Not  only  in  a  forward  movement,  but  backward 
movement  also. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  case  he  is  running  light,  with  no  cars  ahead 
of  him? 

Mr.  Skog:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  It  is  no  great  hazard  in  case  he  has  no  cars 
he  is  pushing  down  here. 

Mr.  Skog:  The  trouble  is  like  this,  that  he  cuts  them  off, 
and  then  they  will  give  a  back  up  signal,  and  you  back  up  in  here. 
In  the  meantime,  somebody  from  the  other  end  up  here  has 
shoved  some  cars  down  there  very  close,  and  you  are  not  sure 
whether  they  would  clear  or  not  until  you  get  right  up  to  them. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  what  I  mean,  vdth  the  single  excep- 
tion of  the  possibility  that  someone  has  improperly  left  cars 
where  they  are  not  in  the  clear,  there  isn't  any  additional  hazard 
to  the  man  in  the  cab,  if  he  is  simply  operating  in  accordance 
with  the  signals  of  the  switchmen  who  are  on  the  ground. 

Mr.  Skog :  There  is  a  chance,  of  course,  of  somebody  else 
coming  down  there  in  the  dark.  I  know  that  T  don't  like  to 
work  nights. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  was  trying  to  get  in  the  distinction,  Mr. 
Skog,  between  the  dislike  of  all  people  to  work  at  night,  and 
what  made  a  yard  any  differeiit  from  ojierating  on  the  main  line, 
distinguishing  Ijetween  men  who  work  at  night  on  the  main  line, 
and  those  who  work  days  on  the  main  line. 

Mr.  Skog:  Just  as  I  say,  it  is  the  danger  of  finding  these 
cars  not  into  clear,  and  the  unnatural  time  of  night  work. 


795 

Mr.  Sheean :  Both  of  those  things  would  exist  on  main  line 
operation  as  well,  would  they  not,  Mr.  Skog? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  they  would,  but  you  would  liave  switch 
lights  on  the  main  line ;  and,  if  there  were  any  cars  down  there, 
you  could  not  tell  whether  they  were  in  the  clear  or  not  unless 
you  had  a  good  headlight,  which  our  road  engines  have  and  which 
our  yard  engines  have  not.  Our  yard  engines  are  very  poorly 
equipped  for  headlights. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Having  headlights,  rather  than  an  increase 
in  wages,  would  be  the  remedy,  to  have  better  headlights  there, 
wouldn't  it?  You  don't  think  it  is  necessary  to  pay  more  money 
if  danger  can  be  removed  by  improving  the  headlights  ? 

Mr.  Skog:  Better  headlights  would  improve  conditions, 
that  is  certain. 

Mr.  Sheean :  A  headlight  in  the  yard  can  be  made  to  serve 
the  purpose  of  j^ard  work  equally  well  with  the  purpose  which 
the  road  headlight  serves,  can't  it? 

Mr.  Skog:  Oh,  yes,  if  the  headlight  was  improved,  made 
better,  it  would  certainly  make  conditions  better  for  night  work. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Assuming  that  the  conditions  as  to  lights 
were  the  same,  or  the  lights  which  were  furnished  in  yard  service 
performed  the  function  in  yard  service  just  as  well  as  the  head- 
lights which  are  furnished  for  road  service,  is  there  any  real  dif- 
ference between  the  yard  engineer  and  the  road  engineers  as  to 
either  the  hazard  of  night  work,  as  distinguished  from  the  hazard 
of  day  work,  or,  the  desirability  of  day  work,  as  distinguished 
from  the  desirability  of  night  work? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  I  think,  if  the  headlight  was  proper  and 
in  good  shape,  that  there  would  not  be  any  more  difference  in 
that  for  a  j^ard  man  than  for  a  road  man,  that  is,  as  far  as  the 
engine  was  concerned. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all. 

REDIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone :  Mr.  Skog,  suppose  while  you  were  down  there, 
in  the  engine,  on  track  nine  or  ten,  a  switchman  kicked  in  a  string 
of  cars  on  track  three  or  four,  and  they  were  left  out  far  enough 
to  foul  your  lead,  do  you  know  of  a  recent  occurrence  where  that 
situation  came  up? 

Mr.  Skog:     It  happened  just  a  short  time  ago,  I  could  not 


796 

give  you  the  exact  date,  Init  if  they  had  been  probably  about  five 
seconds  later,  they  would  i)robably  have  turned  tlie  engine  over. 

Mr.  Stone :  They  kicked  them  down  on  tiie  side  of  a  switch 
lead! 

Mr.  !Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     The  side  of  the  train? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     In  the  back  of  the  engine  as  he  was  pulling 


out? 


Mr.  Skoii' :     Just  cleared  the  tank. 


'& 


Mr.  Stone :  Speaking  of  headlights  on  the  switch  engines, 
isn't  it  a  fact  that  part  of  the  time  either  one  or  both  headlights 
are  obscured  by  being  coupled  on  a  box  car,  either  ahead  of  or 
behind  the  engine? 

Mr.  Skog:     Oh,  yes,  lots  of  thnes. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  also  a  fact  that  switch  lights  would 
imi)rove  things  a  little  bit? 

Mr.  Skog:     Switch  lights  on  the  lead? 

Mr.  Stone :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Skog:  Thev  certainlv  would.  Then  vou  could  tell 
where  you  were  at.  Tlien  you  could  tell  what  the  switch  was, 
anyway. 

Mr.  Stone :  But,  in  case  one  of  these  night  switchmen  does 
make  a  mistake,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  engineer  is  also  involved 
in,  and  has  to  come  and  explain  the  "why"  about  it? 

Mr.  Skog :  Yes,  sir.  1  should  say  so.  If  I  come  down  that 
lead  and  I  run  into  those  cars  they  have  got  down  there,  they 
will  hold  me  resi)onsible  for  running  into  them,  and  they  won't 
take  anything  for  an  excuse.  They  will  say  that  I  must  know 
that  those  cars  were  into  clear. 

Mr.  Stone :     I  think  that  is  all  T  care  to  ask. 

KE-CROSS-EXxVMlNATIOX. 

^Ir.  Slieean :  Mr.  Skog,  you  don't  question  at  all  the  pro- 
l)riety  of  trying  to  find  out  where  anybody  is  hurt — 

Mr.  Skog:     Oh,  no — 

Mr.  Sheean:     As  to  what  brouglit  it  al)out? 

Mr.  Skog :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  (piestion  asked  by  Mr.  Stone  was  that 
you  would  be  called  upon  to  camo  in  and  explain.    You  think  it 


797 

is  perfectly  proper,  in  every  case  of  that  kind,  that  there  should 
be  an  investigation  to  find  ont  just  how  it  did  happen,  don't  you? 
Mr.  Skog :     That  is  all  right,  but  ordinarily  they  blame  the 
engineer  if  he  does  get  into  those  cars. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  I  suppose  depends  entirely  upon  all  of 
the  circumstances,  doesn't  it!  The  schedules  themselves  usually 
provide,  do  they  not,  all  these  wage  schedules,  for  the  right  of 
both  to  have  a  full  hearing,  representation  and  everything  else 
in  case  of  any  kind  of  discipline  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     Oh,  yes,  the  schedules  provide  for  that,  sure. 

Mr,  Sheean:  So  that  it  was  not  a  criticism  of  the  idea 
that,  if  an  engineer  should  strike  a  car,  that  the  company  should 
try  to  find  out  whether  it  was  the  fault  of  some  other  crew,  or 
whether  it  was  his  fault? 

Mr.  Skog:  Oh,  yes;  but,  understand  what  I  mean.  If  I  am 
switching  on  this  lead  and  I  come  up  here  a  way,  and  then 
somebody  shoves  these  cars  down  on  the  lead,  so  they  don't 
clear  the  track,  and  1  come  up  this  way  to  pick  up  my  cars,  they 
are  away  up  here,  and,  if  I  go  into  those  cars,  they  will  hold  me 
responsible  and  discipline  me  for  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Under  some  provision  of  the  rules? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  on  the  theory  that  I  am  supposed  to  know 
that  those  cars  are  into  clear. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Are  in  the  clear? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  are  supposed  to  have  the  switch 
engine  under  control  as  you  approach  these  leads? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir,  but  these  leads  or  these  tracks  are  so 
close  together  that  if.  we  should  approach  each  one  of  those 
tracks  running  into  those  leads,  we  would  not  get  ten  cents 
of  work  done  all  night,  hardly. 

Mr.  Sheean:  A  switching  movement  is  ordinarily  a  slow 
movement,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Skog:     Well,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  did  not  intend  to  debate  the  propriety  of 
any  particular  facts,  Mr.  Skog,  but  to  make  clear  that  you  do 
not  question  at  all,  a  full  investigation,  Avherever  an  accident 
happens,  to  find  out  how  it  happened,  to  see  whether  you  can 
avoid  it  in  the  future. 


798 

Mr.  Skog:     I  would  ratlier  have  it. 
Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all. 

RE-RE-DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  think,  Mr.  Skog,  my  friend  on  the  other  side 
misunderstood  me.  I  did  not  mean  to  bring  out  the  fact  that 
there  should  not  be  any  investigation.  The  point  I  wanted  to 
bring  out  was  that  there  was  an  investigation  and  you  probably 
lost  some  sleep  attending  it. 

Mr.  Skog:     That  is  right. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  could  not  go  home  and  go  to  bed  after  an 
accident,  you  would  probably  come  down  on  the  carpet  and  spend 
most  of  the  day? 

Mr.  Skog:  Of  course,  if  it  was  anything  serious.  If  it  was 
only  perhaps  a  little  damage  done  to  that  car,  they  would  not 
hold  us  up  from  making  a  written  statement  to  our  local  officials. 

Mr.  Stone:  But,  is  it  not  a  fact  that,  every  time  a  car  is 
wrecked,  or  any  time  an  accident  happens,  there  is  always  an 
investigation! 

Mr.  Skog:     Ordinarily,  there  is,  if  it  is  anything  serious. 

Mr.  Stone:  Unless  they  cover  it  up  and  say  it  came  in  that 
way  oli"  the  road? 

In  regard  to  moving  under  control,  what  do  you  understand  ? 
Do  you  understand  that  it  is  to  stop  in  half  the  distance  to  be 
cleared  I 

Mr.  Skog:  Our  instructions,  from  the  book  of  rules  and 
examiners,  are,  that  we  shall  run  so  that  we  can  stop  in  half  the 
distance  that  jou  can  see,  for  the  reason  that,  if  somebody  else 
is  coming  in  the  other  direction,  if  you  stop  in  the  distance  that 
you  could  see,  you  would  certainly  have  a  collision.  It  is  stop- 
ping half  the  distance  you  can  see. 

Mr.  Stone:  Suppose  you  lived  rigidly  up  to  the  technical 
application  of  that  rule,  at  night,  how  much  switching  would 
you  do  in  a  yard? 

Mr.  Skog:     We  would  not  do  very  much. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Park:  Mr.  Skog,  when  did  you  receive  this  last  in- 
crease on  these  engines? 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  last  increase? 

Mr.  Park:     Yes. 

Mr.  Skog:     The  tirst  of  June,  1913. 


799 

Mr.  Park:  Was  that  uegotiated  by  the  committee  of  the 
Northern  Pacific  Engineers'^ 

Mr.  Skog:     The  Committee  of  the  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Park:     Of  the  Great  Northern,  I  mean. 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:  Were  they  represented  in  the  previous  general 
conference  F 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:     The  engineers  of  the  Great  Northern? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:  This  was  a  conference  held  after  the  general 
conference  adjustment  had  been  made  I 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir,  it  was. 

Mr,  Park:  Were  the  questions  that  came  before  the  com- 
mittee at  that  time,  as  to  road  engines,  applied  generally,  or  just 
to  this  switching  condition  at  St.  Paul? 

Mr.  Skog:  Only  in  regard  to  what  we  got  for  yard  work 
for  the  larger  power. 

Mr.  Park:  Were  they  asking  at  that  time  for  increases  in 
road  service  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:     It  was  just  a  yard  proposition! 

Mr.  Skog:  We  were  asking  for  some  rules  in  regard  to 
the  road  work? 

Mr.  Park:     A  change  in  working  conditions? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:  Were  any  concessions  made  at  that  time  in 
regard  to  the  working  conditions? 

Mr.  Skog:     I  can  not  say  just  exactly  what  they  were. 
Mr.  Park :     What  is  the  method  of  discipline  on  the  Great 
Northern?    Is  it  actual  suspension  or  discipline  by  record? 

Mr.  Skog:    Actual  suspension. 

Mr.  Park :  How  do  the  weather  conditions  compare  in  St. 
Paul  with  those  in  Chicago?  Is  it  colder  in  that  territory  than 
in  this? 

Mr.  Skog:  This  is  my  first — well,  I  was  here  in  Chicago 
about  ten  or  fifteen  years  ago,  but  I  was  only  here  a  couple  of 
days,  and  this  is  the  second  time  I  have  been  here,  so  I  do  not 
know  really  liow  the  weather  is  here.    It  has  been  pretty  nice  up 


800 

at  Minneapolis  this  fall,  but,  ordinarily,  we  have  ])retty  hard 
winters  there. 

Mr.  Park:     How  low  does  the  thermometer  go  there? 

Mr.  Skog:     Thirty  degrees,  or  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Park:     Below  zero? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park :  When  it  is  thirty  degrees  l)elow  zero  does  that 
give  yon  a  good  deal  of  trouble  with  your  engine,  keeping  her 
alive? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  we  have  quite  a  bit  of  trouble  with  our  air 
there.  Jt  has  got  to  be  looked  after  all  the  time,  to  keep  the 
parts  clear. 

Mr.  Park :  Do  you  have  trouble  with  your  injectors  freez- 
ing up? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  not  so  much  that,  because  we  generally 
keep  our  heaters  on. 

Mr.  Park :  You  have  to  watch  the  engine  pretty  closely  in 
order  to  keep  her  from  freezing  np  under  those  conditions? 

Mr.  Skog:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park :     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Stone:  Coming  to  that  25  cents  differential,  is  it  not 
a  fact  that  the  liremen  have  had  a  differential  in  their  switching 
service  since  1901? 

Mr.  Skog:  Tt  lias  been  (juite  aAvliile,  but  T  don't  remem- 
ber the  date. 

Mr.  Stone :     It  was  long  years  before  the  engineers  had  it? 

Mr.  Skog:  Oh,  yes,  a  long  time  before  that;  but  T  don't 
remember  the  year. 

Mr.  Stone:  Suppose  you  had  this  kind  of  foggy,  murky 
weather  in  Minneapolis  like  you  have  seen  here  in  the  last  few 
days,  and  this,  by  the  way,  is  typical  Chicago  weather,  in  the 
winter  time — suppose  you  had  this  kind  of  weather,  don't  you 
think  ]ierhaps  it  would  increase  the  difficulties  or,  at  least,  make 
it  harder  to  work  in  tlio  yard  under  these  couditious.  if  you  bad 
it  as  a  regular  diet? 

Mr.  Skog:     We  have  it  sometimes  there. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  have  some  very  heavy  snow  storms  and 
blizzards ;  but  do  you  have  as  much  of  this  fog  in  Minnea]iolis 
as  we  have  here? 

Mr.  Skog:     1  don't  know  that  we  do,  but  I  can  tell  you  of 


801 

one  of  our  en,i»ine(n's  wlio  was  killed  on  New  Year's  morning  on 
account  of  it  being  a  foggy  morning. 

Mr.  Stone:  (?*oming  l)a('k  to  that  ([uestion  of  investiga- 
tions, sni)])ose  yon  cornered  some  cars  on  the  lead  last  night  and 
you  were  told  to  come  down  to  the  trainmaster's  office  or  the 
sui)erintendent's  office  for  an  investigation  this  morning,  would 
you  he  paid  for  your  time  at  that  investigation? 

Mr.  Skog:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  would  not  l)e  able  to  work  that  nighty 
after  being  u])  all  day  attending  the  investigation? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  sir,  not  very  well:  You  can  not  stand  it 
very  well.  You  would  not  be  able  to  do  your  duty  right  the  next 
night  if  you  were  up  all  day. 

Mr.  Stone:  S])eaking  of  this  man  who  has  this  extremely 
hazardous  work  walking  around  in  the  yard  at  night,  the  switch- 
man; isn't  it  a  fact  that  the  man  who  runs  a  locomotive  has  had 
years  of  experience  while,  ]jerhai)s,  the  man  who  is  directing  the 
movements  of  the  switchman  has  had  perhaps  only  days  of  ex- 
perience ? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir,  that  is  true. 

Mr.  Stone :  It  is  very  common  to  hire  a  green  man  and  put 
him  right  in  tlie  yard,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  he  at  once  takes  the  higher  rate  for  the 
night  work! 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir;  he  does. 

Mr.  Stone :     That  is  all. 

RE-CROSS  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheean :  On  this  question  of  discipline,  Mr.  Skog,  this 
Rule  65  covers  the  whole  subject  on  the  Great  Northern,  doesn't 
it?     (Handing  book  to  witness.) 

Mr.  Skog:     (After  examining.)     That  is  all  right,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  would  like,  in  order  to  get  into  the  record 
as  to  what  the  discipline  rule  is,  he  having  identified  this  Rule 
65  on  the  Great  Northern,  to  read  it  into  the  record. 

The  Chairman  :     You  may  do  so. 

Mr.  Sheean:     (Reading): 


a 


Rule  65.     Engineers  charged  with  offenses  involving  sus- 


802 

pension  or  discliaiye  will  he  advised  the  nature  of  such  offense, 
and  no  engineer  will  be  discharged,  suspended  or  given  record 
suspension  without  full  investigation  within  five  days  by  Super- 
intendent, or  other  designated  officer,  at  which  investigation  all 
parties  interested  will  be  notified  to  be  present  and  at  which 
any  engineer  under  investigation  may  be  represented  by  the  Lo- 
cal or  General  Chairman  of  the  Brotherhood  of  Locomotive 
Engineers  and  both  may  be  present  and  hear  all  evidence  sub- 
mitted at  the  investigation  if  he  so  desires.  If  engineer  is  not 
satisfieil  with  decision,  he  will  have  the  right  to  appeal  to  the 
next  higher  officer,  continuing  such  appeal,  if  desired,  until  it 
reaches  the  General  Manager,  whose  decision  shall  be  final. 

"Engineers'  Committee  will  be  allowed  to  see  all  i^apers 
l)ertaining  to  the  case. 

"In  no  case,  except  for  insubordination  or  other  extreme 
cases,  will  an  engineer  be  taken  out  of  service,  without  l)eing 
notified  of  the  reasons  in  writing  by  Master  Mechanic. 

"If  engineer  is  fountl  blameless,  he  shall  be  immediately 
reinstated  and  ])aid  for  time  lost  at  his  regular  rates  for  each 
calendar  day." 

Mr.  Stone:  In  view  of  the  fact  that  he  has  seen  fit  to  read 
the  rule  into  the  record,  I  would  like  also  to  have  him  read 
their  interpretation  into  the  record. 

Mr.  Sheean  :     Is  that  in  this  schedule  here? 

Mr.  Stone:  No,  it  is  in  somebody's  head,  if  we  can  get 
it  out. 

Mr.  Sheean:  1  haven't  any  objection  to  reading  in  any 
interpretation  that  has  been  given  to  the  rule,  Mr.  Stone.  If 
you  have  an  inter]n-etation  and  can  give  me  any  reference  to  it — 

Mr.  Stone  :  Unfortunately,  we  haven 't  the  application  of  it, 
and,  if  we  could  ever  get  a  standard  a])plication  as  to  how  these 
rules  would  be  ai)plied,  at  least  half  of  the  work  of  our  com- 
mittees would  l)e  abolished  at  once. 

Mr.  Burgess:     Mr.  Skog,  do  you  work  at  day  or  night? 

Mr.  Skog:     I  work  days. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Avo  you  frecpiently  re(]uired  to  work  in  ex- 
cess of  ten  hours! 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  the  run  that  1  have  got  1  work  about  an 
average  of  eleven  hours  a  day,  counting  out  the  noon  hour — it  is 
not  continuous  time,  that  would  be  twelve  hours. 


803 

Mr.  Burgess:  When  you  work  eleven  hours  you  receive 
ten  hours '  pay,  is  that  it  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     If  you  count  out  the  noon  hour,  do  you  mean? 

Mr.  Burgess :  I  understood  you  to  say  you  did  count  out 
the  noon  hour. 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  counting  in  the  noon  hour,  I  work  twelve 
hours. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Counting  in  the  noon  hour,  you  work  twelve 
hours  I 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Burgess:     And  you  receive — 
Mr.  Skog:     Eleven  hours'  pay. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Now,  Mr.  Skog,  how  many  men  constitute 
a  crew,  with  a  switch  engine ! 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  there  is  a  difference.  Ordinarily,  they 
have  a  crew  foreman  and  two  helpers ;  but  there  are  quite  a  num- 
ber of  runs  that  have  three  helpers,  and  some  of  the  runs,  like 
working  on  the  ''hump,"  they  have  all  the  way  from  ten  up 
to  fifteen  or  eighteen  helpers. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Now,  do  all  these  men  receive  a  higher  rate 
for  night  work  than  they  do  for  day  work,  except  the  engineer 
and  fireman? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir;  they  do. 

Mr.  Burgess:     x411  the  yard  men? 

Mr.  Skog:     All  the  yard  men. 

Mr.  Burgess :  The  engineers  and  firemen  are  the  only  ex- 
cepted ones,  in  that  respect,  in  the  yards? 

Mr.  Skog:     They  are  the  ones. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Now,  Mr.  Skog,  if  you  were  at  work  in  a 
yard  on  the  Great  Northern  and  you  had  one  car  ahead  of  your 
engine  and  were  proceeding  forward,  and  a  car  was  not  in  the 
clear  and  you  struck  that  car — there  are  no  lights  on  the  dwarf 
swatches,  you  understand — 

Mr.  Skog:     No. 

Mr.  Burgess:  (Continuing) — this  car,  being  placed  ahead 
of  your  engine,  would  obscure  the  light  being  effective  from  the 
headlight;  under  those  circumstances  Avould  you  be  disciplined 
or  not,  according  to  the  ordinary''  practice  that  is  now  in  vogue 
on  the  Great  Northern  Railroad? 


804 

Ml.  Skoic:  1  would  be  disciplined  for  movdiig  back  there 
without  having  a  man  on  top  of  that  car. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Then,  you  are  held  responsible  for  the 
proper  location  of  the  men  on  the  crew,  to  the  extent  of  refusing 
to  move? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Now,  we  understood  you  to  say  that  some 
officers  stated  to  the  crews,  or  at  least  to  the  engineers  and 
firemen,  tliat  they  should  proceed  at  a  rate  of  speed  so  that 
they  could  stop  witliin  one-lialf  the  distance  of  their  range  of 
vision,  is  that  correct.^ 

Mr.  Skog:     That  is  correct. 

yiv.  Burgess:  Well,  on  a  foggy  night,  with  no  lights  on 
the  switches,  or  during  a  snow  storm,  what  would  the  distance 
be  of  vour  rani>e  of  vision? 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  sometimes  it  would  not  be  a  car  length 
— two  car  lengths,  probably. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Then,  to  comply  with  the  rule,  you  would 
have  to  proceed  at  a  speed  wherein  you  could  stop  in  about 
twenty  feet? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir,  lots  of  times — half  a  car  length,  yes, 
that  would  be  about  right. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Failing  to  do  so,  and  you  did  strike  some 
car,  you  would  be  subject  to  discipline  in  accordance  with  the 
practice  on  that  railroad  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Burgess :     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Park :  Would  it  not  be  a  pretty  serious  storm  that 
would  confine  your  vision  to  twenty  feet? 

Mr.  Skog:  No.  Well,  yes,  but  we  have  them  quite  often 
where  it  gets  so  foggy  you  cannot  see  a  car  length  away. 

Mr.  Park :  Don 't  you  think  it  is  a  proper  rule  to  move 
with  greater  caution  under  those  conditions  than  when  the  at- 
mosphere is  absolutely  clear? 

Mr.  Skog:     Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Park:     A  vnse  precaution? 

Mr.  Skog:     Oh,  yes,  sir,  and  we  do,  too. 

Mr.  Park :  Under  this  rule,  to  be  able  to  stop  within  the 
distance  or  half  the  distance  which  the  track  would  seem  to  be 
clear — isn't  that  flexible,  so  at  times  you  can  see  for  a  mile, 


805 

and  uiidor  those  coiulitioiis  you  can  move  ten  or  fifteen  miles 
an  bourf 

Mr.  Sko,i>':     Yes,  sir. 

]\rr.  Park :  And  at  other  times  you  could  only  see  for  half 
a  mile,  and  th*en  you  would  move  at  a  slower  rate  of  speed? 

Mr.  Skoi>":     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park :  It  is  simply  a  rule — and  the  best  rule  I  know 
of,  and  I  think  you  too — of  taking  the  proper  precautions  to 
protect  your  life  and  the  lives  of  other  employes  and  the  prop- 
erty of  the  company,  under  those  conditions? 

Mr.  Skog- :  Yes,  sir.  I  think  it  is  all  right,  too ;  but  taking 
it  at  night,  especially,  if  you  should  move  so  slow,  you  would 
never  get  any  work  done.  You  would  probably  have  to  violate 
those  rules  to  some  extent.     They  do,  anyway,  at  some  times. 

Mr.  Park :  Mr.  Sheean  read  into  the  record  the  method  of 
discipline,  and  I  understood  from  that  you  do  have  a  discipline 
record  on  the  Great  Northern? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:  I  asked  you  in  my  former  interrogations  if  it 
had  a  discipline  record  or  actual  suspension — do  you  have  both? 

Mr.  Skog:     No,  it  is  actual  suspension. 

Mr.  Park:  Mr.  Sheean  read  into  the  record  discipline  by 
record.     Is  that  in  vogue  on  the  Great  Northern? 

Mr.  Skog :     No,  sir,  it  is  by  actual  suspension. 

Mr.  Park :  Y'^ou  don 't  know  whether  they  have,  the  so-called 
Brown  sj'^stem? 

Mr.  Skog :     They  have  not,  no. 

Mr.  Park :  So  you  are  not  demerited  if  you  are  found  at 
fault;  you  are  actually  suspended? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Skog,  I  would  like  to  ask  you  one  more 
question :  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  you  are  expected  to  get  the  work 
done  and  to  go  on  and  do  the  work,  and  then,  if  anything  hap- 
pens, they  have  the  rule  there  for  discipline? 

Mr.  Skog:  That  is  it  exactly.  We  have  got  to  get  the 
work  done,  and,  the  way  it  is,  you  have  got  to  take  some  chances 
in  order  to  get  the  work  done. 

The  Chairman:  What  is  the  result  in  the  event  you  fail 
to  get  done  the  work  that  is  assigned  to  you? 


806 
Mr.  Skog:     Well,  they  will  say  you  are  no  ^ood — turn  you 


in. 


The  C'hairman:     Vou  would  lose  your  job  f 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes.  Well,  practically  that  way,  because  if  you 
cannot  get  the  work  done,  you  delay  these  fast  freights  and  if 
A'ou  do  that  too  often  thev  will  sav  '*Put  that  fellow  awav  some- 
where,  pack  him  back  somewhere,  where  he  will  be  out  of  the 
way,  and  get  somebody  else." 

The  Chairman:  In  that  investigation,  would  it  be  a  valid 
excuse  to  say  that  there  was  a  storm  or  fog? 

Mr.  Skog:  Then  thev  would  sav  that  the  rules  sav  that 
you  must  go  slower. 

The  Chairman:  AVliat  I  meant  to  say  was,  if  you  said  the 
reason  you  went  slow  was  due  to  a  heavy  fog  or  a  snowstorm — 

Mr.  Skog:  It  might  be  for  once.  I  think  if  you  kept  that 
up  they  would  soon  get  you  otf  the  job. 

Mr.  Stone:  Does  the  fog  get  as  thick  in  the  official's  office 
as  it  does  down  in  the  yard? 

Mr.  Skog:     I  don't  hardly  think  so. 

Mr.  Stone :  And,  then,  when  he  comes  around  in  the  morn- 
ing and  finds  that  the  trains  aren't  made  up  and  the  yard  isn't 
cleared  up,  he  wants  to  know  why? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  One  other  question:  Do  you  have  a  dinner 
hour  in  >oui-  switching  service  there? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     You  are  not  paid  for  that  hour? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  sir.  If  we  are  paid,  we  have  to  be,  accord- 
ing to  the  schedule,  ready  to  go  to  dinner  not  later  than  12:15 
at  noon  or  night;  otherwise  you  don't  get  it.  Then,  we  get 
thirty  minutes  for  dinner  and  then  go  to  work  at  the  expiration 
of  those  thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Stone:  During  that  dinner  hour  do  you  turn  your  en- 
gines into  the  roundhouse  or  does  a  hostler  take  charge  and  you 
go  and  get  a  warm  meal,  or  are  you  released  wherever  you  hap- 
pen to  be? 

Mr.  Skog:  Relieved  where  we  are  when  12  o'clock  comes, 
without  going  to  dinner. 

Mr.  Stone:  Are  you  released  from  responsibility  for  the 
engine? 


807 

Mr.  Skog:  There  was  an  order  issued  at  oue  time,  that  the 
company  would  release  us  from  all  responsibility,  still  we  cannot 
go  anj^vhere  because  we  have  got  to  be  right  on  that  engine  any- 
how. We  all  cany  lunches  because  we  do  not  know  where  we  are 
going  to  get  our  dinner. 

Mr.  Stone:  Y^ou  are  just  as  liable  to  be  caught  at  one  point 
of  the  yard  today  and,  tomorrow,  somewhere  else? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  Suppose  it  was  a  split  run,  one  of  these  split 
tricks  when  you  are  called  for  10  or  11  o'clock  in  the  day  and 
you  quit  at  that  time  at  night,  what  would  they  do  then,  pay 
continuous  time? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir.  The  sixth  hour  would  be  the  meal  hour 
and  they  would  get  thirty  minutes  to  eat  lunch  and  be  paid  con- 
tinuous time. 

Mr.  Stone:     Paid  continuous  time  on  the  split  tricks? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  understand,  of  course,  that  we  are  asking, 
under  this  arbitration,  for  continuous  time;  no  time  to  be  de- 
ducted? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Stone:  In  your  judgment,  do  you  think  men  should  be 
paid  continuous  time? 

Mr.  Skog:  I  most  certainly  think  they  should,  and  we  had 
it  on  the  Great  Northern  for  eight  years  after  the  change  from 
the  twelve  hour  to  the  ten  hour  system,  without  one  word  being- 
said  against  it. 

Mr.  Stone:     You  were  paid  continuous  time? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir,  we  were,  for  eight  years,  and  in  that 
noon  hour  we  had  our  lunch  and  oiled  the  engine  and  did  certain 
odd  jobs  that  might  be  required,  and  were  ready  to  go  to  work 
promptly  at  one  o'clock  with  the  switching,  so  there  was  no 
delay  on  the  switching  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Nagel:  As  a  matter  of  practice,  which  rule  do  you 
obey,  the  rule  to  observe  caution  in  a  dense  fog,  or  the  demand 
to  get  your  work  done  in  spite  of  the  dense  fog? 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  myself,  I  am  pretty  cautious;  but  you  see 
they  are  after  the  men  so  strong  about  getting  this  work  done 
that  the  men  will  take  chances,  in  spite  of  the  rule,  in  order  to 
get  the  work  done. 


808 

Mr,  Nagel :  Isn't  that  tlie  condition  which  obtains  in  almost 
all  services  of  that  kind — for  instance,  at  sea,  the  captain  deter- 
mines whether  he  will  try  to  keep  the  record  of  his  company  or 
make  sure  that  his  passengers  do  not  suffer? 

Mr.  Skog:     Well,  I  suppose  it  is. 

Mr.  Nagel:     It  is  a  matter  of  judgment  and  discretion? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

^Ir.  Xagel:  And  i)erhaps  recklessness,  but  isn't  it  true 
that  you  have  to  ])rotect  yourself  chiefly  against  the  impression 
that  you  suffer  more  from  fog  than  somebody  else  does? 

Mr.  Skog:     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Nagel:     Isn't  there  something  in  tliat? 

Mr.  Skog:     1  don't  know. 

Mr.  Nagel :  If  you  have  only  the  reasonable  amount  of 
fog  in  your  service,  do  you  think  there  is  any  danger  of  an 
unjust  record  against  you? 

.Mr.  Skog:  AVoU,  yes —  Well,  now,  I  don't  (]uite  understand 
what  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Nagel:  1  i)ut  the  question  and  I  will  repeat  it  again: 
if  you  have  only  a  reasonable  amount  of  foggy  days — 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Do  you  think  that  you  are  in  any  danger  of 
having  an  unjust  record  made  against  you? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  I  don't  think  so.  No,  I  don't  believe  that 
I  would  be. 

Mr.  Nagel :  In  other  words,  you  are  treated  just  about  as 
other  men  would  be  treated  under  like  conditions,  and  you  have 
always  the  possibility  of  an  unfair  chief,  that  of  course  enters 
into  all  service? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:     And  that  is  all  there  is  to  it? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  I  g-uess  so.  But  you  take  one  man  that 
tries  to  live  up  exactly  to  the  rule  as  it  is  laid  down  and  working 
on  one  of  our  fast  jobs,  that  is  making  up  these  fast  freight 
trains,  if  he  don't  take  some  chances  at  times  there,  why  they 
are  going  to  get  him  off  of  the  job  there,  that  is  sure. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Well,  another  question:  you  work  during  the 
day? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir,  I  do. 


809 

Mr.  Nagel :  Day  work  and  night  work  have  the  same  com- 
pensation I 

Mr.  Skog:     They  do  now,  3^es. 

Mr.  Nagel:     For  engineers  and  firemen? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:     Day  work  is  easier  and  less  hazardous? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel:     You  prefer  it? 

Mr.  Skog:     I  prefer  it,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel:    Are  you  entitled  to  it  by  reason  of  seniority? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir.  ' 

Mr.  Nagel :  You  are  the  more  experienced  man  under  that 
rule? 

Mr.  Skog:    Well,  yes. 

Mr.  Nagel :  So  the  more  experienced  man  gets  the  lighter 
job?  .^  ^ 

Mr.  Skog :     Well,  that  is  the  way  it  is. 

Mr.  Nagel:  And  the  more  difficult  and  dangerous  job  is 
entrusted  to  a  less  experienced  man;  that  is  the  rule,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  yes,  but  they  all  of  them  have  got  quite 
a  bit  of  experience  before  they  get  to  running  one  of  these  en- 
gines. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Still,  it  plight  furnish  a  reason  for  different 
compensation  for  the  more  difficult  job? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:     You  work  eleven  hours? 

Mr.  Skog :  That  is  about  what  my  time  will  average,  about 
eleven  hours,  counting  out  the  noon  hour.  If  I  count  the  noon 
hour  it  is  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Would  it  be  possible  to  automatically  release 
you  at  the  expiration  of  the  ten  hours? 

Mr.  Skog :     It  certainly  could  be  done  very  easily. 

Mr.  Nagel:     It  could  be? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir,  in  my  position. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Do  you  think  there  are  many  instances  in 
which  it  would  not  be  easy  to  divide  up  the  time? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  sir,  not  in  yard  work.  I  think  it  could  be 
done  all  right. 

Mr.  Nagel:  I  understood  the  last  witness  to  say  that  he 
did  not  think  it  could  be  very  well  done. 


810 

Mr.  Skoo-:  Well,  their  conditions  may  be  different  than 
ours. 

Mr.  Na.a:el:  That  is  true,  isn't  it,  that  the  last  witness  did 
so  state? 

Mr.  Stone:  Yes,  sir,  l)iit  1  think  there  is  this  difference, 
if  I  may  ex]ilain  it :  probably  at  the  expiration  of  his  ten  hours 
he  is  over  in  some  foreign  yard. 

Mr.  Nagel :  I  understand  that,  but  I  am  directing  the  ques- 
tion— 

Mr.  Stone:  This  is  switching,  and  he  was  in  transfer 
service. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Now,  where  the  division  can  not  be  con- 
veniently made,  he  is  able,  of  course,  to  earn  his  ten  hours  a  day 
for  an  entire  month,  in  a  smaller  number  of  days? 

Mr.  Skog :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel:  The  last  witness  said  he  worked  twenty-one 
days. 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:  At  fourteen  hours  and  a  half  a  day,  that 
amounts  to  something  in  the  neighborhood  of  twentv-eight  davs? 


1^    in    iiit^   ii'^i^iLffyjiiL^'Kjy^   vyx    u.vviiu..     v^i^j 


Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:     About  that? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir;  about  that. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Tn  other  words,  undergoing  the  hardship  of 
a  consecutive  fourteen  and  a  half  hours  a  day,  he  has  the  cor- 
responding compensation  of  eight  or  nine  days  off  absolutely? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir;  that  is  true. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Are  there  any  other  compensations  in  your 
employment,  assuming  the  risk  and  the  hardship  of  it  now,  do 
you  regard  it  as  of  advantage  to  have  outdoor  work? 

Mr.  Skog:     Being  outside,  do  you  mean? 

Mr.  Nagel :     Yes. 

Mr.  Skog:     Having  the  fresh  air? 

Mr.  Nagel:     Yes. 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  I  don't  know;  I  always  did  like  to  be 
outdoors. 

Mr.  Nagel :  1  wondered  how  this  atmosphere  in  here,  with 
the  windows  hermetically  sealed,  pleased  you? 

Mr.  Skog:  Oh,  I  could  be  in  the  house,  too,  but  I  do  prefer 
to  be  outdoors  most  of  the  time. 


811 

Mr.  Nagel:  Understand,  I  am  not  undertaking  in  any  way 
to  depreciate  the  hardships,  and  the  risk,  and  the  hazard  of  your 
employment.  I  think  I  get  an  impression  of  that,  but  I  want 
to  get  your  answer,  whether  there  is  anything  to  compensate  in 
any  sense,  in  the  employment  itself. 

Mr.  Skog :  No ;  I  think  if  1  could  do  indoor  work  I  might 
be  satisfied  with  that,  but  1  don't  know.  1  have  been  in  the 
outdoor  service  all  my  life. 

Mr.  Nagel:     Has  the  risk  itself  any  charms  for  you? 

Mr.  Skog :  Well,  no ;  if  I  could  get  that  amount  of  money 
without  any  risk,  I  certainly  would  take  it. 

Mr.  Nagel:       You  would  prefer  it? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Shea:  Mr.  Skog,  what  does  your  engine  pay  you  now 
for  ten  hours? 

Mr.  Skog:     $4.50  for  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Shea :  Supposing  this  Board  awarded  a  differential 
in  the  rates  of  pay  for  engineers  between  night  and  day  work, 
would  you,  with  this  ditferential,  apply  for  a  night  job? 

Mr.  Skog:  It  would  have  to  be  an  awful  big  differential 
before  I  would. 

Mr.  Shea :  Do  you  think  '2  cents  an  hour  would  be  an 
inducement  ? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  sir;  because  I  have  given  up  a  run  that 
would  pay  me  a  great  deal  more  than  that. 

Mr.  Shea :  Well,  assuming  that  the  night  run  would  pay 
you  2  cents  an  hour  in  excess  of  the  day  run,  would  it  be  an 
inducement  to  you? 

No,  sir. 

That  is  all. 

Mr.  Skog,  do  you  have  any  accidents  in  the 


Mr. 

Skog: 

Mr. 

Shea 

Mr. 

Park 

vard? 

« 

Mr. 

Skog 

Mr. 

Park 

Mr. 

Skog: 

Myself,  personally? 
No,  I  mean  generally. 

Well,  there  are  quite  a  few.  We  have  had  two 
men  killed  outriglit  u])  there,  and  (piite  a  number  of  them  have 
been  hurt. 

Mr.  Park:     Do  you  work  on  heavy  grades  in  any  part  of 
the  yard? 

Mr.  Skog:     Part  of  the  yard  is  (juite  heavy,  yes. 


812 

Mr.  Park :  Do  you  think,  in  railroading,  that  more  damage 
is  done  to  cars  in  the  yards  or  on  the  road  ? 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  I  think  they  will  probably  average  up  the 
same.    T  don't  think  there  is  much  difference. 

Mr.  Park:  Do  you  think  that  the  risk  is  any  greater  on 
the  Great  Northern  than  on  other  roads  ? 

Mr.  Skog :     No,  I  don 't  think  it  is. 

Mr.  Park:  Do  you  think  that  the  cost  to  the  railroad  for 
repairs  on  cars  on  the  Great  Northern  is  lower  than  on  any 
other  railroad  in  the  United  States,  with  perhaps  one  or  two 
exceptions  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     No,  I  don't  know  that. 

Mr.  Park:  Indicating  that  it  is  well  managed  and  few 
accidents  causing  damages  to  cars,  if  that  was  true? 

Mr.  Skog:     Well,  I  am  not  in  a  position  to  know  that. 

Mr.  Park:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Mr.  Skog,  in  your  direct  testimony,  refer- 
ring to  the  difficulty  of  operating  a  locomotive  at  night,  what  was 
in  your  mind  was  to  show  a  reason  as  to  why  you  thought  the 
service  should  receive  greater  compensation,  rather  than  to 
make  any  complaint  in  regard  to  the  discipline?  Am  I  right 
in  that? 

Mr.  Skog :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Burgess :     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Stone :     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  would  just  like  to  ask  Mr.  Skog  as  to  the 
two  men  that  you  say  were  killed  in  the  yard  service  there, 
whether  either  of  them  was  an  engineer  or  firemen? 

Mr.  Skog:     Both  engineers. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Both  engineers? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir,  and  the  one  that  was  hurt,  it  was  just 
a  short  time  ago,  just  before  I  left ;  well,  about  a  month  before 
I  left,  the  cars  cornered  him,  cornered  his  engine.  It  was  on  the 
fireman's  side,  and  the  fireman  just  had  time  to  holler  for  him 
.to  jump  that  ''they  are  cornering  us,"  and  he  had  just  got  out 
on  the  window  sill  with  his  feet,  and  before  he  had  a  chance 
to  take  action  himself,  why  the  cars  struck  him  and  he  went  out 
there  and  broke  a  bone  in  his  ankle. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Were  those  all  at  night? 

Mr.  Skog :     No,  that  one  was  in  the  davtime. 


Mr. 

Sheean 

day  or 

night? 

Mr. 

Skog: 

ing. 

Mr. 

Sheean 

Mr. 

Skog: 

813 
:     What  were  the  other  two ;  were  they  in  the 

One  of  them  was  on  a  foggy  New  Year's  morn- 

What  was  the  third  one,  night  or  day? 
Now,  I  think  that  was — well,  I  am  not  sure,  but 
I  think  it  was  early  in  the  morning.    I  don 't  think  it  was  hardly 
daylight,  but  I  couldn't  swear  to  that,  certainly. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  do  know  that  two  out  of  the  three  of 
which,  you  have  knowledge  were  in  the  daytime! 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes;   one  of  them  was  on  a  foggy  morning. 

Mr.  Sheean :    A  foggy  morning  1 

Mr.  Skog:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  have  no  knowledge  of  any  injuries 
to  engineers  or  firemen  at  night  in  these  yards? 

Mr.  Skog:  No,  I  haven't  right  now.  In  fact,  I  didn 't  figure 
that  anything  of  that  kind  was  going  to  come  up,  or  would  be 
asked  me,  or  I  would  have  taken  more  pains  to  find  out. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  did  want  to  ask  you,  Mr.  Skog,  whether  this 
larger  engine  taking  the  $4.50  rate, — whether  you  took  that 
larger  engine  under  your  seniority  rights? 

Mr.  Skog:  Yes,  sir,  I  did.  I  took  her  on  account  of  the 
amount  of  money  that  was  paid.  First,  there  wasn't  any  dif- 
ferential, you  know,  but  when  the  differential  came  in,  why  I 
took  the  larger  engine  on  account  of  the  more  pay. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  the  weight  on  drivers  of  this  engine? 

Mr.  Skog:  Why,  it  is  stencilled  on  the  side  of  the  cab, 
180,000,  but  that  is  all  I  know  about  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:     180,000? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  with  your  experience  as  an  engineer, 
would  you  rather  run  an  engine  weighing  180,000  pounds  on 
drivers  for  $4.50  than  you  would  to  run  a  small,  light  engine  at 
$4.25? 

Mr.  Skog:     On  account  of  the  money,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  that  is  the  twenty-five  cents  difference 
there? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  your  judgment  that  more  than  covers  the 
difference  in  the  work? 


814 

Mr.  Skog:  Well,  it  covers  it  all  right.  I  would  rather 
have  the  money;  that  is  what  I  have  been  looking  for  all  the 
time. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Skog,  how  far  a  man  can  see  in  the  yards 
up  there,  what  the  conditions  as  to  fog  are,  what  your  .conditions 
as  to  operations  are,  the  matter  of  discipline  and  investigation, 
and  everything  else,  it  is  the  same  up  there  now  as  it  was  in 
1910,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Skog:     Practically  so,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  same  management  and  same  yards? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  same  situation  generally? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Skog,  just  one  more  question:  Do  you  know 
what  the  w^eight  on  drivers  is  of  that  lighter  switch  engine  ? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes,  sir,  135,000  pounds. 

Mr.  Stone:     135,000  pounds  I 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     And  the  weight  of  the  engine  you  run  is  what? 

Mr.  Skog:     180,000. 

Mr.  Stone:     180,000? 

Mr.  Skog:     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  If  the  weight  on  both  engines  was  the  same, 
which  engine  would  you  prefer? 

Mr.  Skog:     I  would  take  the  small  one. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  all. 

(Witness  excused.) 

The  Chairman:     Call  your  next  witness. 
Mr.  Stone:     This  is  Mr.  J.  J.  Burns,  of  the  Kansas  City 
Southern  Railwav,  Kansas  Citv,  Missouri. 

J.  J.  BURNS  was  called  as  a  witness,  and  having  been  duly 
sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone:     You  are  at  the  present  time  in  the  employ  of 
the  Kansas  City  Southern  Railway,  Mr.  Burns? 
Mr.  Bums:     Yes,  sir. 


815 

Mr.  Stone:     How  long  have  you  been  in  that  service? 

Mr.  Bui'ns :  As  an  engineer,  I  have  been  in  that  service  six- 
teen years,  switch  engineer  and  transfer  engineer. 

Mr.  Stone:     Sixteen  years. 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Talk  a  little  louder  and  talk  plainly  so  they 
can  get  it.    What  class  of  service  are  you  in  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Burns:     Transfer  service. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  is  the  weight  of  the  engine  you  are 
running  ? 

Mr.  Burns:     128,800  pounds  on  drivers. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  rate  of  pay  do  you  receive  in  transfer 
service'? 

Mr.  Burns :     $4.50  a  day,  ten  hours  or  less. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  is  the  rate  of  pay  for  switch  engineers 
in  that  yard? 

Mr.  Burns :     $4.25  a  day,  ten  hours  or  less. 

Mr.  Stone:     Regardless  of  class  of  engine! 

Mr.  Burns :     Regardless  of  class  of  engine. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then  your  company  pays  a  higher  rate  for 
transfer  than  they  do  for  switching! 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :     What  time  are  you  required  to  report  for  duty? 

Mr.  Burns :  Thirty  minutes  before  the  leaving  time  or  the 
starting  time  of  our  engine. 

Mr.  Stone :  Do  you  perform  any  service  during  these  thirty 
minutes  1 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :     State  to  the  Board  what  you  do. 

Mr.  Burns :  Well,  my  duty  is  to  inspect  the  engine,  fill  the 
lubricators,  oil  the  engine  around,  and  any  other  necessary  work 
that  should  be  done  before  the  engine  enters  the  service. 

Mr.  Stone :  By  the  rules  of  the  company  you  are  required 
to  report  thirtj^  minutes  before  leaving  time? 

Mr.  Burns:  By  virtue  of  our  schedule  we  should  be  on 
our  engines  at  least  thirty  minutes  before  the  leaving  time  of 
the  engine. 

Mr.  Stone:  For  these  thirty  minutes,  do  you  receive  any 
pay? 

Mr.  Burns  :     No,  sir. 


816 

Mr.  Stone:     You  do  not? 

Mf .  Burns :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     When  does  your  compensation  begin? 

Mr.  Burns :  It  begins  at  the  time  the  engine  is  set  to  go 
to  work. 

Mr.  Stone :  For  example,  if  you  were  expected  to  go  to 
work  at  seven  o'clock,  you  would  be  required  by  your  schedule 
to  be  on  duty  at  6:1^0,  and  your  pay  would  begin  from  seven 
o  'clock ;' 

Mr.  Burns :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  other  words,  you  throw  in  thirty  minutes 
for  good  measure  every  day? 

Mr.  Burns:     Volunteer  service,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  On  your  run,  at  what  time  do  you  start  to 
work  ? 

Mr.  Burns  :     10 :30  A.  M. 

Mr.  Stone:  You  are  on  what  is  known,  in  railroad  par- 
lance, as  a  split  trick  transfer  run? 

Mr.  Burns :  It  is  designated  on  our  rostrum  where  we 
mark  the  duty,  as  a  ''half  and  half." 

Mr.  Stone:     A  half  and  half? 

Mr.  Burns  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  '\\nien  you  say  ' ' half  and  half, ' '  you  don 't  mean 
half  work  and  half  rest,  do  you? 

Mr.  Burns:  No,  we  mean  half  day  and  half  night;  and 
sometimes  it  is  a  little  better  than  half  night. 

Mr.  Stono:  At  what  time  do  vou  usuallv  finish  your  dav's 
work? 

Mr.  Burns:     Well,  we  usually  finisli  from  9:30  to  12:30. 

Mr.  Stone:     At  night? 

Mr.  Burns:     At  night. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  finish,  or,  are  you  relieved  by  tlie  yard 
master? 

Mr.  Burns:  We  are  relieved  by  the  yard  master,  or  by 
the  fact  that  we  have  an  article  in  the  schedule  or  contract  be- 
tween the  Kansas  City  Southern  and  the  Locomotive  Engineers, 
that  engineers  will  not  be  required  to  work  longer  than  thirteen 
hours,  only  in  cases  of  emergency,  or  live  stock,  or  perishable 
freight. 

Mr.  Stone:     So  that  thirteen  hours  is  the  longest  that  vou 


I 


817 

can  keep  a  man  on  in  either  the  yard  or  transfer  service,  except 
in  cases  of  emergency? 

Mr.  Burns  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  rule  is  lived  up  to  by  the  company? 

Mr.  Burns :  Well,  not  adhered  to  strictly.  Since  the  sched- 
ule went  into  effect  we  have  had  a  good  deal  of  trouble  to  get 
them  to  live  up  to  the  rule. 

Mr.  Stone:     They  want  to  work  you  longer? 

Mr.  Burns :  They  want  to  work  us  longer  and  they  do 
work  us  longer.  AVe  have  Avorked  fourteen  hours  in  handling 
dead  freight  and  in  violation  of  the  schedule.  We  have  had  a 
good  deal  of  trouble,  trying  to  get  in  on  the  expiration  of  thir- 
teen hours,  since  that  went  into  effect. 

Mr.  Stone:     Are  you  ever  relieved  in  less  than  ten  hours? 

Mr.  Burns :  Possibly,  in  the  last  four  years,  there  might 
be  some  few  instances  where  we  got  in  in  less  than  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:     But  they  are  very  rare? 

Mr.  Burns:  We  very  seldom  get  in  less  tlian  ten  liours' 
service. 

Mr.  Stone :     Are  you  called  to  go  to  work,  or  do  you  report? 

Mr.  Burns :     I  report. 

Mr.  Stone :     AYhat  time  do  you  leave  your  home  ? 

Mr.  Burns :  On  the  position  I  am  in,  I  leave  home  about 
9  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  you  usually  get  home  at  what  time  the 
next  morning? 

Mr.  Burns :     About  12 :30,  about  that  time. 

Mr.  Stone:  So,  all  you  see  of  your  family,  and  all  the 
social  life  you  have,  is  between  12:30  A.  M.  and  9  o'clock  A.  M., 
when  you  again  report  on  duty,  or  start  to  report  on  duty? 

Mr.  Burns :  About  all  the  time  I  see  my  family  is  between 
8  o'clock  in  the  morning  and  9.  As  a  rule,  they  are  always 
asleep  when  I  get  home,  and  I  never  see  them;  and  sometimes 
there  is  a  week  at  a  time  that  I  won 't  see  my  children  at  all,  on 
account  of  the  fact  that,  in  school  days,  my  oldest  girl  will  have 
gone  to  school  before  I  get  up,  and  my  youngest  girl,  I  will  pos- 
sibly see  her  thirty  minutes  before  starting  to  school. 

Then,  at  night,  when  I  get  home,  why  they  are  all  asleep, 
and  I  don't  see  them  for  a  week  at  a  time,  only  just  an  hour  or 
thirty  minutes,  as  the  case  may  be. 


818 

Mr.  IStoiie:  Is  there  any  part  of  your  run  that  is  made 
under  train  orders  f 

Mr.  Burns :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then  your  responsibility  is  just  as  great  as 
that  of  any  other  freight  train,  passing  over  the  same  track  ? 

Mr.  Burns :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.   Stone:     Then,  engineers  in  transfer  service  are  re- 
quired to  pass  the  same  examination  as  engineers  in  freight 
ser^dce  on  your  road? 
•    Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Your  company . employs  a  number  of  switch 
engineers,  do  they  not! 

Mr.  Burns :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Can  you  give  to  the  Board  any  information 
as  to  tlie  number  of  hours  they  are  required  to  work? 

Mr.  Burns:  AYell,  for  instance,  we  will  say  that  an  engi- 
neer goes  to  work  at  7  A.  M.,  and  is  required  to  work  the  limit 
of  liours  provided  by  the  contract;  he  w^ould  tie  up  at  8  P.  M. 

Now,  in  order  to  give  that  day's  service,  it  will  be  neces- 
sary for  him  to  get  up  about  4:30  or  5  o'clock  in  the  morning, 
to  get  down  to  his  engine  and  be  there  not  later  than  6 :30,  and 
working  then  from  6:30  until  possibly  8:15  before  he  would  be 
finally  relieved,  under  the  tying  up  of  his  engine.  That  would 
be  the  number  of  hours  that  man  would  be  on  duty,  and,  as  a 
rule,  a  good  many  of  them  work  that  number  of  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:  ^¥liat  time  Avould  he  probably  get  home  at 
night,  then,  imder  those  conditions? 

Mr.  Burns:  It  would  be  9:30,  that  would  be  the  best  he 
could  do  before  he  could  get  home  to  his  family. 

Mr.  Stone:  Under  those  conditions,  that  man  would  not 
be  able  to  take  his  family  and  go  out  to  any  social  entertain- 
ment of  any  kind,  would  he? 

Mr.  Burns  :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  He  would  have  to  go  to  bed  to  get  a  little  rest, 
in  order  to  get  up  at  4:30  the  next  morning  to  get  back  at  his 
hard  work? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it,  you  say,  common  for  the  engineers  in 
the  Kansas  City  Terminal  to  work  that  number  of  hours? 

Mr.  Burns :     It  is  a  usual  thing,  a  very  common  occurrence, 


819 

for  the  engineers  to  work  thirteen  hours  a  day  and  over  thirteen 
hours  a  day,  where  they  are  handling  perishable  freight,  or 
stock,  or  in  cases  of  accidents  or  wash-outs,  things  of  that  nature. 

Mr.  Stone:  In  your  opinion,  has  the  responsibility  of  the 
switch  engineer  increased  since  1910? 

Mr.  Burns :     Yes,  sir,  I  believe  it  has. 

Mr.  Stone:  Explain  to  the  Board  in  your  own  way,  why 
vou  think  it  has  increased. 

Mr.  Burns :  Well,  I  think  the  responsibility  of  the  switch 
engineer  has  increased,  due  to  the  fact  that  they  have  installed 
larger  engines ;  in  handling  a  larger  engine  you  are  handling  a 
larger  cut  of  cars. 

Mr.  Stone:  When  you  say  a  ''cut"  of  cars,  you  mean  a 
train  of  cars  ? 

Mr.  Burns:  Well,  in  yard  service  we  term  them  as  a  cut 
of  cars,  a  train  of  cars,  a  string  of  cars,  or  a  drag  of  cars ;  they 
have  different  terms  for  a  train  of  cars. 

Mr.  Stone :  Talk  a  little  louder,  and  a  little  slower,  please. 
Has  anything  else  occurred — 

Mr.  Burns :     I  had  not  finished  that. 

Mr.  Stone :     Pardon  me.    Gro  ahead. 

Mr.  Burns :  In  handling  a  longer  train  of  cars,  more  skill 
has  got  to  be  used  in  switching,  in  order  to  avoid  damage  to 
equipment,  by  pulling  out  draw  bars,  or  damage  to  draft  gear, 
in  any  way ;  and  your  signals  in  many  instances  are  further  away 
from  you.  You  are  looking  through  possibly  a  cloud  of  smoke 
blown  across  the  train  from  another  engine,  and  you  are  strain- 
ing your  eyes,  trying  to  find  out  whether  a  signal  is  for  you  or 
for  someone  else,  at  the  end  of  that  string  of  cars,  in  many 
cases.  To  my  mind  that  has  rather  increased  the  responsibility 
of  an  engineer  in  the  switching  service. 

Now,  the  weight  of  the  engine  on  the  drivers  has  increased, 
which  naturally  has  increased  the  braking  power  of  the  engine, 
and,  in  switching  a  cut  of  cars,  you  use  nothing  but  the  engine 
brake.  You  have  got  to  be  very  careful  in  setting  the  engine 
brake,  that  you  do  not  set  it  too  quick,  giving  the  engine  the  full 
braking  power  at  one  time,  and  jerking  the  slack  out  of  this 
long  string  of  cars,  and  causing  a  good  deal  of  damage  to  cars 
and  equipment. 


820 

Mr.  StoiH':  What  is  tlic  type  of  engine  that  tliey  use  in 
switching  service  tliat  weii^hs  loO  tons? 

Mr.  Burns:  The  tyi)e  of  engine  used  in  switcliing  service 
in  our  yard  is  known  as  the  Shay  type. 

Mr.  Stone:     You  have  two  of  those  engines'? 

Mr.  Burns :  Yes,  sir ;  we  have  one  weigliing  151)  tons,  and 
one  weighing  ]  25  tons. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  know  of  any  Shay  engines  being  in 
use  in  any  other  yards  in  your  territory? 

Mr.  Burns :     No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Stone :  What  rate  of  pay  do  engineers  get  for  running 
this  Shay  engine? 

Mr.  Burns  -.  They  get  $4.25  a  day,  regular  switeli  engine 
rates. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  might  add,  for  the  information  of  the  mem- 
bers of  the  Board,  that  in  our  exhibit  of  the  different  types  of 
locomotives,  we  did  not  put  in  any  photograph  of  tlie  Shay  type 
of  locomotive,  because,  I  must  confess,  I  overlooked  the  fact  that 
there  were  any  of  them  in  tlie  w^estern  service.  They  are  a 
geared  locomotive,  and  every  wheel  is  driven  with  a  gear  and 
wheel;  they  are  all  drivers,  tank  and  all. 

Mr.  Park:     They  are  hoisting  engines,  are  they  not! 

Mr.  Stone :  No,  sir,  they  are  not  hoisting  engines,  but  they 
will  hoist  a  string  of  cars  u])  a  7  per  cent  grade,  if  that  is  what 
you  mean? 

Mr.  Park :     That  is  what  I  meant. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  they  have  been  known  to  climb  a  tele- 
graph pole  backing  u]). 

Mr.  Burns,  according  to  your  evidence,  or  according  to  your 
statements,  the  engineers  are  required  to  work  very  long  hours. 
Is  it  necessary  for  them  to  lay  off  in  order  to  get  the  necessary 
rest  ? 

Mr.  Burns :  Well,  it  has  been  necessary  for  me  to  lay  off 
in  order  to  take  a  rest,  and  I  have  known  of  instances  where 
others  have  done  tlie  same  thing. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  fact  remains  that,  with  your  long  hours 
on  duty,  and  the  short  time  off  duty,  it  does  not  give  you  the 
necessary  rest  to  keep  going  week  in  and  week  out? 

Mr.  Burns:  No,  sir;  even  in  view  of  the  fact  that  in  the 
last  five  years,  or  about  that  time,  I  have  worked  very  few  Sun- 


821 

days.  The  ruu,  or  i)osition  I  am  holding,  does  not  work  every 
Sunday,  and  I  have  found  it  necessary  to  lajr  off  Saturday  and 
Sunday,  in  order  to  ))o  able  to — and  in  fact  I  did  not  feel  I 
could  work  any  longer  without  any  rest. 

Mr.  Stone:     You  had  reached  the  limit  of  your  endurance? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  How  long  have  these  two  Shay  locomotives 
been  in  service  on  your  road? 

Mr.  Burns:  I  can  not  give  you  the  exact  time;  they  en- 
tered the  service  there  about  two  years  ago,  I  think,  possibly  not 
that  long, 

Mr.  Stone :  What  al)out  your  meal  hour  on  that  transfer 
run,  do  you  have  a  meal  hour? 

Mr,  Burns :     AVell,  we  have  a  meal  hour,  yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Stone:     Is  the  time  paid  continuous? 

Mr,  Burns:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     The  hour  is  deducted? 

Mr.  Burns:  The  hour  is  deducted;  where  you  don't  work 
the  meal  hour,  or  the  hour  that  is  designated  for  the  meal  hour. 

Mr.  Stone:  During  that  meal  hour  do  you  tie  up  just  wher- 
ever it  happens  to  be? 

Mr.  Burns:  Yes,  wherever  they  would  ask  me  to  tie  up  for 
dinner,  we  tie  up. 

Mr.  Stone:     No  fixed  point? 

Mr.  Burns:  No  fixed  point.  We  may  have  a  point  fixed  by 
our  actual  w^ork,  yet  that  point  can  be  changed  at  any  time. 
The  yardmaster  can  say,  get  dinner  here,  there,  or  any  i)lace 
he  desires  me  to  get  dinner. 

Mr,  Stone:     Just  as  the  work  permits? 

Mr,  Burns:     Just  as  the  work  permits, 

Mr,  Stone:  During  that  meal  hour  are  you  relieved  from 
the  care  and  responsibility  of  the  engine? 

Mr.  Burns:     No,  sir. 

Mr,  Stone:     You  are  not? 

Mr,  Burns:     No,  sir, 

Mr,  Stone:  You  cannot  turn  your  engine  in  somewhere  to 
a  hostler  or  to  a  roundhouse  and  go  and  get  a  warm  meal? 

Mr.  Bums:     No,  sir. 

Mr,  Stone:     You  have  to  eat  a  cold  lunch? 

Mr,  Burns:     Have  to  eat  a  cold  lunch,  yes,  sir. 


822 

Mr.  Stoue:     Carry  a  lunch  with  you  all  the  time? 

Mr.  Burns:  Yes,  I  have  carried  a  cold  lunch  for  the  last 
twenty-one  years,  and  I  kind  of  changed  my  system  in  order  to 
see  if  I  could  not  relish  the  lunch  a  little  more.  I  used  to  carry 
a  dinner  bucket  for  a  long  time,  and  it  got  so  monotonous — 

Mr.  Stone:     You  got  so  you  hated  the  sight  of  it? 

Mr.  Burns:  Yes,  I  hated  the  sight  of  it,  and  one  time  I 
M^as  carrying  this  dinner  bucket  home  at  night,  empty — we  go 
home  empty — and  I  set  it  down  in  the  aisle  of  the  street  car, 
and  some  fellow  came  along  and  kicked  it  the  length  of  the  car. 
and  it  Avas  embarrassing  for  me  to  go  and  pick  it  up.  After 
that  time  I  began  to  carry  it  in  a  paper.  A  paper  has  got  its 
advantages  and  disadvantages.  When  I  look  up  in  the  box 
where  this  paper  lunch  is,  it  is  dried  up,  it  is  pretty  tough,  but 
I  have  to  eat  it,  there  is  no  other  way  for  me  to  do,  so  I  manage 
to  get  along  until  I  get  home,  or  get  in  at  night. 

Mr.  Stone:  Honestly,  between  ourselves,  you  don't  call 
that  living,  do  you? 

Mr.  Burns :     It  is  existing. 

Mr.  Stone:     I  think  that  is  all. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Burns,  on  the  days  where  you  work  five 
days  a  week  and  lay  olf  Saturday  and  Sunday,  in  order  to  get 
necessary  rest,  how  much  are  you  ordinarily  paid? 

Mr.  Burns:     Ordinarily,  where  I  would  do  that,  I  would  be 
working  the  limit  ever>-  day,  thirteen  hours. 
Mr.  Sheean:     How  long,  thirteen  hours? 

The  limit  is  thirteen  hours,  yes. 
Seveiity-Hvo  hours  at  forty-five  cents  an  hour, 

Yes. 

All  of  this  service  that  you  render  there  in 
the  transfer  service  is  on  a  uniform  basis  of  45  cents  an  hour. 
Does  it  happen  that  sometimes  you  go  in  in  less  than  ten  hours? 
Mr.  Burns:     Sometimes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  have  not  described  just  what  this  run  was 
that  you  start  out  on  at  10:30  in  the  morning  and  complete  dur- 
ing the  day.    Just  where  do  you  go,  and  what  do  you  do? 

Mr.  Bums:    We  have  a  run  known  as  the  Sugar  Creek, 


Mr. 

Burns: 

Mr. 

Sheean : 

is  it? 

Mr. 

Burns : 

Mr. 

Sheean 

823 

transfer.  This  Sugar  Creek  transfer  run  is  out  to  the  Standard 
Oil  Refinery  at  Sugar  Creek,  a  distance  of  about  ten  miles  from 
the  starting  point  of  the  engine  in  the  morning.  We  start  at 
10:30  A.  M.  and  switch  together  a  train  of  fifty  empty  oil  tanks. 
We  switch  them  on  account  of  classifying  them  in  order,  in 
accordance  with  the  directions  of  the  Standard  Oil  orders  on 
that  day.  When  we  get  fifty  oil  tanks  together,  we  proceed  to 
Sugar  Creek ;  that  is  a  distance  of  about  seven  miles  from  where 
we  make  up  the  train.  Fifty  cars  is  what  we  call  doubling  the 
train  up  the  grade  that  we  go  into  Sugar  Creek.  We  will  have 
to  double  the  hill  with  fifty  empty  tanks,  and  after  we  get  out 
there  we  will  possibly  have  fifty  loads  to  bring  in.  The  same- 
Avork  applies  at  Sugar  C^reek  getting  those  loads  together  that 
would  in  getting  the  empties  together  to  start  out  with. 

Mr.  Stone:  May  1  interrupt?  Mr.  Sheean,  did  I  under- 
stand you,  that  a  man  working  five  days  of  thirteen  hours  would 
work  seventy-five  hours? 

Mr.  Sheean:  If  I  did,  1  was  wrong.  I  meant  sixty-five 
hours.    I  am  not  responsible  for  what  I  say,  talking  hurriedly. 

Mr.  Stone:     I  understood  you  to  say  seventy-five. 

Mr.  Burns:  I  don't  think  I  made  that  remark  about  any 
number  of  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  did  not  do  it  intentionally. 

Mr.  Stone:     I  understand. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Five  times  thirteen  would  be  sixty-five,  at 
forty-five  cents  an  hour. 

Mr.  Stone:  Divide  sixty-five  by  eight  hours,  and  he  would 
ha\'e  worked  eight  and  one-eighth  days. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Going  to  work,  that  is,  taking  out  your  engine 
at  10:30  Monday  morning,  delivering  that  engine  at  9:30  Friday 
night,  and  not  again  reporting  for  duty  until  the  next  Mon- 
day morning,  that  is,  from  9:30  or  10:30,  or  whatever  time  it 
was  on  Friday  night,  that  you  completed  the  run,  and  not  going 
to  work  again  until  Monday  morning,  where  you  lay  off  both 
Saturday  and  Sunday,  that  would  produce  to  you  ordinarily 
about  $29.25  a  week? 

Mr.  Burns :     I  have  not  figured  it  up  in  that  way  at  all. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is,  where  you  laid  off  both  Saturday  and 
Sunday,  those  are  ordinarily  the  days  on  which  you  lay  off,  dur- 
ing the  preceding  week  you  worked  five  thirteen  hour  days? 


Mr. 

Burns : 

Mr. 

Sheean 

hour? 

Mr. 

Burns : 

Mr. 

Sheean 

824 

Possibly,  all  the  time. 
.MI  of  those  days  for  forty-five  cents  per 

Yes,  sir. 
Whatever  that  would  multiply  would  fairly 
rejn-esent  your  average  earnings  during  the  time,  M;-.  Burns? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  As  I  have  followed  you,  there  is  only  eighteeji 
miles  total  distance  from  where  you  started  in  the  morning  — 

Mr,  Burns:  No,  I  said  ten  miles  from  \vhere  I  started  in 
the  morning  until  Sugar  Creek. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  And  then  you  said  the  next  move  was  eight 
miles  more? 

Mr.  Burns:     No,  I  did  not  say  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Pardon  me,  I  am  not  clear  about  that. 

Ml*.  Burns :  1  did  not  mean  to  convey  that  at  all.  Where 
we  made  up  our  train  was  about  eight  miles  from  Sugar  Creek, 
two  miles  from  the  starting  point. 

Mr.  Sheean  :  Coming  back  over  the  same  route  from  Sugar 
Creek  towards  Kansas  City? 

Mr.  Burns:  We  come  back  over  the  same  route  as  we 
go  out,  with  fifty  loads,  about  fifty,  owing  to  the  volume  of 
business  on  that  day.    It  runs  thirty  to  fifty  loads. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Your  total  mileage  then  is  about  eighteen 
per  day? 

Mr.  Burns:  Mv  total  mileage  would  be  about  fortv  miles 
a  day,  because  we  make  two  round  trips. 

Mr.  Sheean:     You  make  two  round  trips  a  day? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  did  not  intend  to  interrupt  you,  Mr.  Burns, 
in  your  description  of  the  work  that  you  did  after  leaving  Sugar 
Creek,  getting  back  this  distance  of  eight  miles.  Then,  you 
were  in  the  middle  of  a  descri])tion  of  that  work  that  you  did 
there  at  that  time  when  the  interruption  came. 

Mr.  Burns :  T  don't  remember  wdiether  I  was  in  the  middle, 
or  completed. 

Mr.  Sheean:  After  the  completion  of  that  work  there, 
about  w^hat  hour  does  that  ordinarily  bring  you  to  the  next  run  ? 

Mr.  Burns:     Do  you  mean  the  first  round  trip? 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes,  the  first  round  trip. 


825 

Mr.  Burns:  The  first  round  trip  would  get  us  into  the 
terminal,  into  the  yard  at  Kansas  City,  usually  about  4  or  4 :30, 
owing  to  the  volume  of  business  handled  at  that  time.  The  less 
the  number  of  cars  the  earlier  we  get  in,  and  the  greater  the 
number  of  cars,  the  later  we  get  in. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  the  usual  operation  of  that  particular  run, 
do  you  take  your  lunch  about  the  time  of  the  completion  of  this 
first  trip,  before  starting  on  the  second  round  trip? 

Mr.  Burns:  We  eat  lunch  at  the  completion  of  the  first 
round  trip. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Under  your  schedule,  you  are  entitled  to  take 
one  full  hour  for  that  lunch? 

Mr.  Burns:     One  full  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Between  what  hours? 

Mr.  Burns :  On  that  run,  my  dinner  hour  would  commence 
at  3:30  and  end  at  4:30.  If  I  worked  thirty  minutes  of  that 
hour,  I  would  be  paid  the  actual  minutes.  Should  I  work  over 
thirty  minutes,  I  would  be  paid  for  the  full  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is,  Mr.  Burns,  if  between  certain  desig- 
nated hours — that  is,  six  hours  from  the  time  you  started  to 
work — they  could  not  carry  you  more  than  six  hours  beyond  the 
time  you  started  to  work  without  giving  you  one  hour  for  the 
meal,  could  they? 

Mr.  Burns:  May  I  recite  to  you  the  reason  of  our  noon 
hour  schedule? 

Mr.  Sheean  :     Yes,  if  you  please. 

Mr.  Burns :  The  agreement  between  the  engineers  and  the 
Kansas  City  Southern  in  regard  to  the  meal  hour  is  as  follows 
— I  quote  the  rule : 

"The  sixth  hour  will  be  knoAvn  as  the  meal  hour,  and  switch 
engineers  shall  be  permitted  to  take  this  hour  for  meals,  except 
in  cases  of  casualty  in  the  yard  and  the  crew  is  engaged  in  clear- 
ing the  same,  or  other  emergencies,  such  as  handling  live  stock 
and  perishable  freight.  Should  switch  engineers  be  required 
to  remain  on  duty  for  thirty  minutes  or  less  after  the  beginning 
of  the  sixth  hour,  they  will  be  paid  for  the  actual  minutes 
worked,  and  if  kept  on  duty  over  thirty  minutes  and  less  than 
one  hour,  they  will  be  paid  one  hour. 

"In  no  case  shall  switch  engineers  be  compelle<l  to  work 


826 

longer  than  seven  hours  without  being  allowed  one  hour  for 
meals. ' ' 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Chairman,  I  want  to  ask  the  same  thing 
I  did  when  he  read  the  other  rules  in.  I  should  like  to  have  an 
interpretation  placed  on  that  by  the  officials  of  the  Kansas  City 
Southern,  in  the  record  along  with  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  will  go  right  on  w4th  Mr.  Burns  as  to  how 
they  operate  under  that  rule. 

Mr.  Stone:  No,  it  is  not  a  question  of  operation.  I  want 
to  get  the  actual  interpretation  of  the  rule  by  the  man  who  says 
what  it  means. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  supposed  the  best  interpretation  of  a  rule 
was  the  practice  under  it,  and  I  am  perfectly  willing  to  take 
Mr.  Burns'  knowledge  and  statement  of  w^hat  is  actually  done 
contemporaneously,  construing  or  interpreting  that  rule. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  could  not  agree  to  that  at  all,  Mr.  Sheean. 
I  shall  be  compelled  to  protest,  because  I  have  known  of  lots  of 
rules  just  as  plain  as  plain  could  be,  and  yet,  when  it  was 
called  to  the  attention  of  the  operating  official  he  said:  ''You 
take  it  and  go  jump  off  the  dock." 

The  Chairman :  As  bearing  upon  the  proper  interpreta- 
tion of  the  rule,  you,  or  course,  w^ill  be  at  liberty  to  offer  any 
testimony  that  you  may  have  on  that  subject. 

Mr.  Stone :  Might  I  ask,  if  it  is  the  intention  of  the  other 
side,  as  fast  as  we  get  these  witnesses,  to  read  in  all  the  rules 
bearing  on  the  case?  If  it  is,  I  shall  certainly  mre  Cleveland 
for  my  files  and  read  in  at  least  half  a  dozen  different  interpre- 
tations that  have  been  made  by  the  operating  officials  on  the 
same  road,  at  different  times,  on  the  same  rule.  It  ^vill  take  a 
box  car  to  bring  them  here. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  to  my  intentions,  I  can  only  say  that  I 
have  no  purpose  in  asking  for  any  rule  other  than  to  be  fair  with 
the  witness  and  make  intelligible  his  testimony  as  to  the  practice 
thereunder.  I  do  not  exactlv  follow  you,  Mr.  Stone.  The  wit- 
ness  attempted  to  narrate  from  memory  a  particular  rule,  and 
having  the  schedule  in  my  hand,  I  asked  him  in  case  this  was 
the  proper  rule  to  read  the  rule  into  the  record,  rather  than  to 
state  merely  from  memory  the  exact  wording  of  the  rule.  I 
wanted  Mt'.  Burns,  in  order  tliat  the  Board  might  understand 


827 

the  operation  which  he  has  found,  to  state  what  was  done  in 
actual  practice.  I  have  no  knowledge  as  to  what  is  to  be  done, 
but  I  have  confidence  that  Mr.  Burns  can  state  it  accurately 
and  clearly. 

Mr.  Stone :  Mr.  Chairman,  pardon  the  interruption  again, 
but  there  is  no  question  as  to  what  these  rules  are  on  these  dif- 
ferent roads.  They  have  the  rules,  but  the  experience  I  have 
had  in  the  past,  and  I  have  no  doubt  will  have  in  the  future,  is 
to  try  to  have  the  operating  officials  apply  the  rule.  That  is  the 
work  of  myself  and  my  six  associates  in  the  field,  as  well  as  the 
local  committees  on  these  different  roads,  and  we  have  spent 
considerable  time,  and  hundreds  of  thousands  of  dollars  of  ex- 
pense is  used  up  each  year  in  trying  to  have  them  applied  as 
they  read. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Mr.  Stone,  you  ask  us  to  consider  a  change  of 
rules,  don't  you,  in  this  very  hearing? 

Mr.  Stone:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel:  We  are  not  asked  to  reform  the  character  of 
the  managers,  are  we? 

Mr.  Stone :  No,  I  would  not  undertake  to  assign  any  such 
task  to  you. 

Mr.  Nagel :     I  just  wanted  to  know. 

The  Chairman :  You  will  be  given  full  opportunity  to  ex- 
plain as  to  the  interpretation  of  any  of  these  rules. 

Mr.  Stone :     All  right. 

The  Chairman :     We  will  take  a  recess  now  until  2 :30. 

(Whereupon,  at  12:30  o'clock  P.  M.,  a  recess  was  taken 
until  2:30  o'clock  P.  M.) 

After  Recess. 

J.  J.  BURNS  was  recalled,  and  having  been  previously 
sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Sheean :  As  I  remember  it,  Mr.  Burns,  we  made  our 
first  round  trip,  and  got  back  to  where  you  usually  took  the  cold 
lunch,  on  this  transfer  run  of  yours.  Ordinarily,  that  round 
trip,  the  first  round  trip,  was  made  about  the  lunch  hour,  in 
your  operations,  wasn't  it? 

Mr.  Bums:  I  believe  that  was  where  we  left  off;  however, 
I  have  it  in  mind  that  it  was  a  noon  hour  question. 


828 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  dependent  upon  the  time  that  you  get 
back  to  this  starting  point,  you  are  paid  or  not  paid  for  the  lunch 
hour? 

Mr.  Bums  :     It  is  owing  to  the  time  we  get  back. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Owing  to  the  time  you  get  back? 

Mr.  Burns :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  if  you  get  back  beyond  the  time,  six 
hours  from  the  time  you  went  to  work,  then  you  take  half  an 
hour  for  your  lunch,  and  you  are  paid  one  full  hour;  that  is, 
you  are  paid  on  continuous  time,  in  case  it  laps  over  that  speci- 
fied time  in  the  schedule? 

Mr.  Burns :  If  we  work  the  full  six  hours  then  we  are  paid 
for  the  noon  hour  and  allowed  an  hour. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  allowed  an  hour? 

Mr.  Burns.     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  in  ease  you  are  not  released  or  in  case 
you  do  not  take  the  time  for  lunch  until  after  the  expiration  of 
six  and  one-half  hours,  what  is  your  pay? 

Mr.  Burns:  It  would  not  make  any  difference  what  time 
after  the  sixth  hour  that  we  took  the  noon  hour,  only,  that  the 
schedule  states  that  w^e  should  not  be  held  on  duty  longer  than 
seven  hours,  without  one  hour  for  meals — it  would  not  make 
any  difference  in  the  rate  of  pay. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  case  you  ran  over  the  time  specified  in 
the  schedule,  whatever  that  schedule  is — I  don't  want  to  discuss 
that  particular  schedule,  Mr.  Burns — in  case  you  ran  beyond 
the  time  specified  there  you  take  half  an  hour  for  lunch  and  are 
paid  continuous  time  ? 

Mr.  Burns :  In  case  we  run  over  the  noon  hour  or  the  meal 
time,  we  are  allowed  one  hour  and  get  paid  for  the  noon  hour — 
allowed  an  hour  for  lunch,  you  understand,  not  thirty  minutes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  it? 

We  are  allowed  one  liour  for  meals,  not  thirty 


Mr. 

Burns : 

minutes. 

Mr. 

Sheean : 

:\[r. 

Burns : 

Mr. 

Sheean : 

Allowed  one  hour? 
Yes. 
And,  are  paid  whether  you  work  that  time 
or  not,  in  case  it  runs  beyond  the  time  specified  in  the  schedule? 
Mr.  Bums:     Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Sheean:     Well,  noAv.  when  you  are  doing  this  switch- 


I 


829 
ing  out  at  the  Standard  Oil  Works  there  at  Sugar  Oreek, — was 


Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  time  you  are  there  is  dependent  upon 
and  determined  by  the  work  that  you  find  when  you  get  out 
there? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Until  that  work  is  done,  as  to  just  what  time 
you  will  get  back  and  complete  your  round  trip  you  cannot  tell 
in  advance? 

Mr.  Burns:  I  cannot  tell  it  in  advance.  It  is  owing  to 
the  num])er  of  cars  to  handle  and  the  amount  of  work  to  do 
after  we  g'et  there,  what  time  we  will  get  back  to  dinner. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Then,  when  you  start  on  your  second  round 
trip,  that  is  about  what  time  in  the  afternoon,  ordinarily? 

Mr.  Burns :  Ordinarily  it  would  be  6  o  'clock.  It  would 
be  owing  to  what  time  we  go  to  dinner.  If  we  go  to  dinner  at 
3:30,  we  will  start  back  at  4:30.  If  we  go  to  dinner  at  4  o'clock 
we  will  start  back  at  5,  and  so  on  up  to  6  o'clock.  That  is 
about  as  late  as  we  start. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  second  round  trip,  what  is  done  on  that, 
Mr.  Burns? 

Mr.  Burns:  The  number  of  cars  handled  on  the  second 
round  trip  is  less. 

Mr.  Sheean:     You  take  the  cars  out? 

Mr.  Burns:  Going  out,  we  only  take  what  we  call  a  single 
transfer  out. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  is  to  this  one  place,  is  it,  just  to  the 
Standard  Oil  plant? 

Mr.  Burns:  To  the  Standard  Oil.  Practically  we  do  the 
same  amount  of  work  and  the  same  kind  of  work  that  we  do  on 
the  first  trip.  There  will  be  often  this  same  number  of  loads 
coming  out — frequently  the  same  number  of  loads  coming  out  in 
the  after  i)art  of  the  day  as  there  were  in  the  fore  part  of  the 
day.  We  do  not  handle  those  cars  out  of  there,  an  engine  that 
works  there  all  day  brings  the  transfer  out  of  there  at  night  and 
takes  one  in  in  the  morning.  This  engine  is  under  the  same  rate 
of  pay  that  I  am. 

Mr.  Sheean:  When  this  work  is  done  you  return  to  the 
tenninal  from  which  you  start? 


830 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Practically  all  the  work  that  your  transfer 
crew  does  during  the  day  is  the  work  of  taking  out  to  this  Stand- 
ard Oil  plant  a  certain  cut  of  cars,  picking  up  some  other  cars 
there,  bringing  them  in  and  making  a  return  trip  of  the  same 
character! 

Mr.  Burns:  Yes,  sir.  On  our  return  we  may  have  two 
set-outs. 

^         Mr.  Sheean  •     But  it  is  the  handling  of  the  traffic  of  a  single 
industry? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Your  work,  day  in  and  day  out,  is  just  the 
handling  of  the  traffic  of  that  one  industry? 

Mr.  Burns:  Not  always,  because,  understand,  should  the 
work  of  that  industry  fall  off  to  any  extent,  where  they  could 
not  give  us  this  transfer  to  go  back  at  night,  then,  I  am  trans- 
ferred on  the  terminal  to  consume  the  time,  either  ten  hours  or 
thirteen,  whichever  the  case  may  be. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Well,  that  is,  if  there  is  a  falling  off  there? 

Mr.  Bums:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     You  are  assigned  to  some  other  work  ? 

Mr.  Bums :    Assigned  to  some  other  work  to  fill  out  the  day. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But,  speaking  generally  as  to  this  period  that 
you  have  covered  here,  your  work  generally  is  this  work  that  you 
have  described,  of  handling  the  traffic  of  the  Standard  Oil  Com- 
pany at  Sugar  Creek? 

Mr.  Bums:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  part  of  this  run  that  you  have  spoken 
of,  is  it  that  you  move  under  train  orders  on  ? 

Mr.  Burns:  We  move  under  train  orders  on  single  track 
from  Air  Line  Junction  to  Sugar  Creek  Junction,  and  we  are 
under  orders  from  Sugar  Creek  Junction  to  Sugar  Creek  proper. 

Mr.  Sheean:    What  is  the  distance! 

Mr.  Bums :  The  distance  from  Air  Line  Junction  to  Sugar 
'Creek  is  about  three  miles.  I  think  Sugar  Creek  Junction,  down 
to  what  we  call  the  refinery,  is  a  little  less  than  two  miles. 

The  Chairman:  Will  you  please  speak  a  little  more  dis- 
tinctly? 

^fr.  Bums:    Yes,  sir. 


831 

Mr.  Sheean :  Is  that  on  a  part  of  the  main  line  of  the  Kansas 
City  Southern? 

Mr.  Burns:  It  is  what  is  kno^^vn  as  the  Air  Line  branch.  It 
is  part  of  the  main  line  of  the  Kansas  City  Southern,  but  it  is  a 
branch  from  Air  Line  Junction  to  Independence,  where  they  have 
suburban  trains  running  every  day. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Suburban  trains? 

Mr.  Bums:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  their  through  passenger  trains  run  over 
that  part  of  the  line? 

Mr.  Bums:  There  are  suburban  passenger  trains  operated 
over  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Well,  only  suburban? 

Mr.  Bums:     Only  suburban. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Only  suburban  ? 

Mr.  Bums:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  part  of  the  line  that  you  are  operating 
on  there,  was  originally  a  terminal  railroad,  was  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Bums:  It  was  always  a  branch,  or  suburban  piece  of 
track.    It  was  not  alwavs  connected  with  the  terminal,  no. 

Mr.  Sheean :  It  was  not  always  a  part  of  the  Kansas  City 
Southern,  was  it? 

Mr.  Bums :  Xo,  not  years  ago.  It  was  known  as  the  Kan- 
sas City  &  Independence  Air  Line,  and  was  connected  with  the 
old  Kansas  City  Suburban  Belt. 

Mr.  Sheean :  What  I  was  getting  at,  Mr.  Bums,  was  that 
your  seniority  rights  do  not  extend  to  the  general  road  service 
of  the  Kansas  City  Southern? 

Mr.  Bums:     Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  were  an  employe  of  this  belt  line  or  inter- 
urban  line,  or  whatever  you  called  it  ? 

Mr.  Burns:  It  would  not  make  any  difference  whether  I 
was  an  employe  of  that  company  at  the  time  that  this  new  com- 
pany absorbed  it,  or,  whether  I  went  into  the  service  now;  it 
wouldn't  make  any  difference  in  regard  to  the  road  rights  of 
seniority. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  part  that  you  work  on  is  still  handled 
as  a  part  of  the  terminal  system  there  ? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Kansas  Citv  terminal? 


832 

Mr.  Burns :     It  is  included  in  the  terminals,  yes, 

Mr.  Shoean :  And  the  seniority  rights  of  the  men  on  this 
terminal,  or  switching  part  of  the  system,  are  separate  from 
the  road  seniority  ? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  you  spoke  of  switch  crews  sometimes 
working  thirteen  hours,  in  the  case  of  the  handling  of  perishable 
freight,  something  of  that  sort! 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  it  only  in  the  case  of  the  handling  of 
perishable  property,  or  an  emergency  of  that  sort,  that  the 
switch  crews  work  that  length  of  time? 

Mr.  Burns :  There  have  been  instances  where  they  worked 
over  thirteen  hours  in  handling  dead  freight. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Aio  the  switch  engines  there  ordinarily 
double  crewed? 

Mr.  Burns:  No,  sir,  we  have,  I  believe,  at  the  present 
time,  one  or  two  engines  that  are  double  crewed. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Do  they  have  both  night  and  day  crews  ? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  the  day  crew  uses  dififerent  engines  from 
the  night  crew? 

Mr.  Burns :  Yes,  sir,  some  of  them  do.  We  have  six  night 
engines,  or  six  night  crews,  and  they  use  different  engines. 

Mr.  Sheean:    And  how  many  day  crews? 

Mr.  Burns:  We  have  twenty-seven  engines  working;  we 
have  about  seventeen. 

Mr.  Sheean:     About  seventeen  day  crews? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  about  six  night  crews f 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Ordinarily  the  night  crews  report  at  a  cer- 
tain definite  time! 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  are  relieved  ordinarily  at  a  definite 
time? 

Mr.  Burns :     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     When  the  day  crews  come  on? 

Mr.  Burns :  Whenever  the  night  yardmaster  gets  through 
with  them  thev  are  relieved. 


833 

Mr.  Sheean:     They  are  relieved? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  case  of  any  double  crewed  engines  working 
thirteen  hours,  both  the  crew  w^hich  was  using  that  engine  and 
the  crew  which  was  to  take  it,  would  be  under  pay? 

Mr.  Burns:  Well,  to  make  that  clear,  a  few  years  ago 
we  were  complaining  about  long  hours  of  service  in  night  yards, 
and  we  were  to  have  the  day  crew 's  engine,  for  instance,  and  I 
was  working  nights  at  the  time.  I  would  go  to  work  at  six 
o'clock  in  the  evening  and  work  as  late  as  ten  o'clock  in  the 
morning.  This  was  before  the  schedule  went  into  effect  and  I 
have  worked  a  day  crew's  engine  that  late.  Now  then,  the  day 
crew  that  would  show  up  in  the  morning  for  that  engine  would 
take  some  other  engine  that  was  available  for  them.  We  had 
no  regular  engines ;  the  engines  were  worked  from  man  to  man. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Ordinarily,  in  the  operation  of  the  yard  there, 
in  the  case  of  double  crewed  engines,  there  is  no  way,  in  case 
you  work  one  of  the  crew  beyond  twelve  hours,  to  avoid  paying 
two  crews,  is  there,  unless  there  is  a  surplus  of  engines? 

Mr.  Burns :  The  engines  are  double  crewed  in  this  way ; 
for  instance,  we  have  a  man  coming  to  work  at  7  o'clock  in  the 
morning;  he  is  relieved  by  the  night  crew  at  6  o'clock.  This 
night  man  is  not  relieved  in  the  morning  by  any  crew;  the 
engine  that  this  man  received  from  the  day  man  is  taken  from 
him  at  midnight  and  he  is  given  an  engine  at  midnight  that  pos- 
sibly does  not  work  the  next  day  and  he  works  that  engine  the 
limit  of  hours,  thirteen.  If  he  is  handling  stock  it  is  sometimes 
fourteen. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  case  of  stock  or  perishable  property  or 
emergency,  they  sometimes  run  over  into  that  length  of  time, 
but  you  do  not  mean  to  convey  the  impression,  do  you,  Mr. 
Burns,  that  that  is  the  usual  length  of  time  of  switch  crews  ? 

Mr.  Burns:  In  night  service  quite  a  number  of  our  en- 
gines w^ork  thirteen  hours,  in  night  service. 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  majority  of  them,  would  you  say? 

Mr.  Burns :  I  would  safely  say  that  the  majority  of  them 
work  the  limit,  every  night.  It  might  not  be  at  this  time,  but 
they  are  subject  to  that,  and  I  can  say,  and  I  believe  there  is 
evidence  to  show  that  they  have. 

Mr.  Sheean :     I  was  simply  seeking  to  get  at  whether  these 


834 

were  exceptional  cases  or  whether  that  was  the  regular  or  custo- 
mary practice  from  day  to  day? 

Mr.  Burns:  It  is  the  customary  practice  to  work  night 
crews  at  least  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  on  this  run  that  you  have,  the  transfer 
run,  have  you  been  on  that  same  run  the  last  five  years  ? 

Mr.  Burns:  Well,  I  have  held  that  run,  not  regularly  for 
five  years,  but  within  that  time,  I  have  been  oif  of  it  possibly 
five  or  six  months.    I  don't  think  it  would  exceed  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  understood  you  to  say  this  morning  that 
during  the  last  five  years  you  had  not  worked  Saturdays  and 
Sundays.  Perhaps  I  misunderstood  you ;  but  that  is  the  way  I 
caught  it. 

Mr.  Burns :  In  my  statement  I  said  that  we  were  not  accus- 
tomed to  work  every  Sunday,  and  I  have  been  off  the  majority 
of  the  Sundays  in  the  five  years. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  thought  you  said  Saturdays  and  Sundays 
during  the  last  five  years  ? 

Mr.  Burns:  I  made  the  statement  that  there  were  times 
when  I  wpuld  lay  off  Saturday  and  Sunday  and  take  rest,  but 
not  every  Saturday  and  Sunday.  I  do  not  think  you  will  find 
I  said  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Assuming  that  you  do  lay  off  from  Friday 
night,  from  the  time  you  would  finish  Friday  night,  and  went 
back  to  work  the  next  Monday  morning,  the  operations,  as  I 
understood  you  this  morning — operating  that  way  would  bring 
you  about  $29.25  a  week  as  compensation? 

Mr.  Burns :     I  haven 't  figured  it  up. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  you  have  been  drawing  as  your  pay  on 
the  work  as  you  have  done  it,  over  $1,400  or  $1,500  a  year, 
haven't  you? 

Mr.  Burns :     I  won't  any  more  than  run  up  to  that,  no. 

Mr.  Sheean:    What  is  it? 

Mr.  Burns :     About  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Something  like  $1,400  or  $1,500  a  year? 

Mr.  Burns :     I  have  never  figured  it  up  that  way. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  addition  to  the  $1,400  or  $1,500  a  year 
paid  you  by  the  company,  haven't  you  also  during  that  time 
found  time  to  devote  to  committee  work,  for  which  you  also 
were  paid? 


835 

Mr.  Burns:     I  have. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Haven't  you,  during  a  greater  part  of  this 
time,  in  addition  to  earning  $1,400  or  $1,500,  laid  off  quite  a 
number  of  days  which  you  have  devoted  to  committee  work? 

Mr.  Burns:     I  have  been  off,  but  I-  included  that  in  the' 
working  day. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  it? 

Mr.  Burns :  I  have  been  called  off  on  committee  work,  yes, 
but  I  figured  that  as  a  working  day.  I  never  took  any  rest  that 
day.  When  I  made  my  statement  that  I  laid  off  Saturday  and 
Sunday,  I  laid  off  for  the  purpose  of  resting. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  was  not  questioning  that,  Mr.  Burns,  but 
simply  as  to  the  compensation  the  days  that  you  laid  off.  You 
have  been  paid  something  like  $1,400  to  $1,500  a  year  by  the 
company  ? 

Mr.  Burns :     I  would  not  be  positive  what  I  have  been  paid 
by  the  company,  because  I  have  never  kept  any  accurate  account 
of  it,  and  I  would  want  to  check  it  up  to  make  a  statement  of' 
that  kind. 

Mr.  Sheean :    What  is  your  best  judgment  about  the  amount 
you  have  been  drawing  from  the  company?    It  will  run  in  the. 
neighborhood  of  what,  fourteen  or  fifteen  hundred  dollars? 

Mr.  Burns:  It  will  run  in  the  neighborhood  of  fourteen 
or  fifteen  hundred  dollars. 

Mr.  Sheean:  In  addition  to  this  fourteen  or  fifteen  hun- 
dred dollars  a  year  which  you  have  drawn  from  the  company, 
about  what  have  you  been  paid  by  the  organization  for  the 
work  that  you  have  done  during  the  same  time  that  you  drew 
this  fourteen  or  fifteen  hundred  dollars  a  year? 

Mr.  Burns :     For  the  last  few  years  it  has  been  very  light. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Can  you  tell  us  about  how  much;  just  give 
us  an  approximate  idea? 

Mr.  Burns :  No,  I  could  not  possibly  give  you  an  estimate 
of  what  I  have  drawn.    I  have  not  kept  any  account  of  it." 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Burns,  all  that  I  wanted  you  to  explain 
is  this,  that  in  the  days  that  you  laid  off,  to  devote  to  committee 
work,  your  compensation  would  be  as  great  or  greater  than  if 
you  had  worked  on  the  run  on  that  day? 

Mr.  Burns:  In  some  instances  it  would;  in  some  it  would 
not. 


836 

The  Oliainiiaii :  Ts  it  the  general  experience  of  engineers 
to  get  this  extra  pay  for  serving  on  committees?  Does  that 
apply  generally  to  engineers? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  answer  to  that,  Mr.  Chainnan,  I  would  say 
that  that  is  part  of  the  organization's  work,  and  when  w^e  have 
men  on  committee  work  we  ])ay  tliem  for  it,  but  what  we  pay  is 
not  up  for  arbitration  l)y  this  Board,  that  is,  what. pay  we  shall 
give  our  committeemen. 

The  Cliairman:  I  think  the  witness  misapprehended  my 
question.  1  meant,  do  engineers  generally  do  this  committee 
woi'k  ? 

Mr.  Stone:  In  comndttee  work,  perhaps  we  have  a  local 
committee,  or  a  general  committee,  when  we  have  a  number  of 
grievances  or  violations  of  schedule,  that  they  are  called  on  to 
serve. 

The  Chairman :  Say  you  have  one  hundred  engineers,  how 
many  ef  that  number  would  serve  on  committee  work  during 
the  year? 

Mr.  Stone:  On  a  division  of  locomotive  engineers  there 
would  be  one  Local  Chairman,  regardless  of  the  size  of  that  di- 
vision. It  might  be  three  hundred  engineers,  or  it  might  be  fifty; 
and  the  General  Committee  is  made  up  of  the  Local  Chairman 
from  each  division  or  lodge  of  the  organization  on  a  road. 

The  Chairman:  So  that  a  small  percentage  of  engineers 
serve  on  committees? 

Mr.  Stone:     Very  small. 

The  Chairman:     As  compared  with  the  whole  number? 

Mr.  Stone:  Yes,  and  the  number  of  days  ihej  serve  on  a 
committee  during  the  year  depends  largely  upon  the  operating 
official  of  that  road. 

The  Chairman :     I  beg  your  pardon  for  the  interruption. 

Mr.  Slieean:  The  time  that  you  laid  off  from  this  run  and 
which  you  did  devote  to  any  work  on  committees,  was  paid  by 
the  organization? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel:  I  get  the  impression  now  that  when  the  man- 
agement is  poor  the  income  of  the  engineers  is  increased  by  this 
additional  compensation. 


837 

Mr.  Stone:  I  did  not  mean  to  give  you  that  impression,  Mr. 
Chairman.  We  would  not  say  he  was  poor.  It  is  perhaps  the 
condition  of  his  liver. 

Mr.  Nagel:  That  has  something  to  do  with  poor  manage- 
ment? 

Mr.  Stone :     Not  always.    We  do  not  find  it  so  at  least. 

Mr.  Shea:  Mr.  Burns,  in  case  you  were  required  to  lay  off 
by  request  of  the  engineers  on  your  division,  to  handle  griev- 
ances, you  Avould  not  be  paid  by  the  railroad  company,  would 
you? 

Mr.  Burns:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea:  You  would  be  paid  by  the  organization  an 
amount  equivalent  to  what  you  lost? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir,  that  is  the  idea. 

Mr.  Sheean:  During  that  time  somebody  else  would  be 
drawing  from  the  railroad  company  this  same  amount  of  money 
for  the  same  run  each  day  that  you  would  draw  when  running 
your  engine? 

Mr.  Burns:  Whenever  I  am  off  for  committee  work,  the 
company,  as  a  rule,  does  not  pull  the  run  off. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Some  one  else  takes  your  pla,ce? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  may  take  leave  at  any  time  that  you 
give  reasonable  notice  for  it? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  A  member  of  the  Board  wishes  to  ask  a  ques- 
tion. 

Mr.  Byram:  Mr.  Burns,  I  believe  you  said  that  you  had 
been  in  the  service  of  this  company  twenty-one  years? 

Mr.  Burns:  Twenty-one  years  as  a  roundhouse  man,  fire- 
man and  engineer. 

Mr.  Byram:     How  long  as  a  fireman  or  engineer? 

Mr.  Burns:  I  have  been  in  the  service  sixteen  years  as  a 
switch  engineer  and  transfer  engineer.  I  could  not  give  you  just 
the  number  of — 

Mr.  Byram:  That  is  near  enough:  What  I  wanted  to  find 
out  was  whether  the  predicament  you  find  yourself  in  here,  that 
is,  having  served  sixteen  years  as  an  engineer,  and  your  seniority 
only  entitling  you  to  a  transfer  run,  which  you  describe  as  very 
unsatisfactory,  is  not  due  largely  to  the  limitation  of  your  sit- 


838 

uatiou,  that  is,  not  having  any  road  rights,  you  cannot  select 
as  good  a  run  as  you  would  otherwise?  Isn't  that  the  trouble 
with  you? 

Mr.  Burns:     I  am  not  laying  that  responsibility  to  any  one. 

Mr.  Byram:  But  that  is  the  fact,  isn't  it,  that  because  your 
seniority  right,  as  you  describe  it,  does  not  give  you  the  privilege 
of  choosing  a  run  on  the  road,  that  you  are  .confined  to  this  yard 
service  that  your  seniority  entitles  you  to? 

Mr.  Burns:  I  have  the  best  run  in  the  service  that  my 
seniority  vnW  entitle  me  to. 

Mr.  Byram:  You  have  chosen  the  best  run  that  your 
seniority  will  entitle  you  to  ? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes. 

Mr.  Byram:  But  that  confines  you  to  yard  service  or 
transfer  work? 

Mr.  Burns:     My  seniority,  as  to  yard  service. 

Mr.  Byram:  So  that  the  fact  that  j^ou  cannot  select  a 
run  on  the  road  which  might  be  better,  and  give  you  very  much 
better  working  conditions,  is  due  to  the  fact  that  your  seniority 
right  is  confined  to  yard  service.  You  cannot  choose  a  run  in 
road  service? 

Mr.  Burns :  I  will  answer  that  question  by  stating  that  it 
is  not  altogether  due  to  the  seniority  rule,  but  due  to  my  own 
responsibility.    I  could  have  a  road  engine  if  I  desired  one. 

Mr.  Byram:     In  the  Kansas  City  Southern  service? 

Mr.  Burns:  In  the  Kansas  City  Southern  service,  or  I 
could  stay  where  I  am. 

Mr.  Byram:     You  prefer  to  stay  where  you  are? 

Mr.  Burns :     I  prefer  to  stay  in  the  yard  service. 

Mr.  Byram:  There  are  better  runs  in  the  road  service 
that,  if  you  wanted,  you  could  have  secured? 

Mr.  Burns:  There  are  advantages  and  disadvantages, 
both. 

Mr.  Byram:  But  you  are  satisfied  to  stay  in  the  yard 
service? 

Mr.  Bums:  I  am  satisfied  to  stay  in  the  yard  service  at 
the  present  time. 

Mr.  Byram:  Notwithstanding  the  difficulties  under  which 
you  labor? 


839 

Mr.  Burns:  Well,  possibly  I  would  find  those  difficulties 
in  any  service,  in  either  road  or  yard  service. 

Mr.  Byram:  From  your  standpoint  you  are  better  off 
where  you  are  than  to  have  the  run  for  your  particular  rank  in 
road  service? 

Mr.  Burns:    No,  I  won't  say  that. 

Mr.  Byram:  Well,  now,  are  there  no  assignments  in  the 
switching  service  in  the  Kansas  City  Southern  yards  at  Kansas 
City  where  men  are  not  required  to  work  twelve  hours — there 
are  no  switching  assignments  working  less  than  twelve  hours, 
is  that  right?' 

Mr.  Burns :  We  have  one  or  two  runs — we  have  one  run 
that  I  can  recall  that  only  works  ten  hours.  That  crew  is 
relieved  by  the  night  crew  at  the  expiration  of  ten  hours,  or 
eleven  hours  on  duty. 

Mr.  Byram:  Is  the  engineer  on  that  engine  older  in  the 
service  than  you  are  ? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Byram :     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Mr.  Burns,  are  you  the  chairman  of  the 
Engineers  on  that  particular  property  at  the  present  time  f 

Mr.  Burns :     Yes,  sir.    I  am  what  they  call  Local  Chairman. 

Mr.  Burgess :  So  you  are  familiar  with  the  engineers '  de- 
sires to  a  very  great  extent  ? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Burgess :  Would  the  engineers  on  that  property  prefer 
to  work  ten  hours  a  day  for  26  days,  or  to  work  21  days,  thirteen 
hours  per  day? 

Mr.  Burns:  Well,  from  the  way  they  speak  to  me,  they 
are  desirous  of  working  ten  hours  a  day. 

Mr.  Burgess:     All  of  them,  or  a  majority  of  them? 

Mr.  Burns:  All  of  them  have  spoken  that  way  to  me,  all 
that  are  under  my  jurisdiction  as  Local  Chairman. 

Mr.  Burgess :  In  your  judgment,  could  it  be  arranged  not 
to  work  an  engineer  longer  than  ten  hours  per  day? 

Mr.  Burns:     In  my  judgment,  it  could. 

Mr.  Burgess :  But  that  would  cause,  of  course,  the  payment 
of  a  full  day  in  event  an  engineer  was  called  to  take  your  place 
at  the  expiration  of  ten  hours,  under  the  ten  hours  or  less  rule, 
would  it  not? 


840 

Mr.  Burns :  Well,  it  would  not — it  would  and  it  would  not, 
OA\dng  to  the  disposition  of  the  officials  to  turn  him  in  after  he 
had  finished  up  the  work  that  I  could  not  do  in  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Burgess:  If  you  had  worked  ten  hours  and  the\^  re- 
lieved you  and  there  was  three  hours  more  work  to  do  and  they 
called  another  crew  to  do  that,  they  would  have  to  pay  them  a 
full  day,  would  they  not? 

Mr.  Burns :  They  would  have  to  pay  him  a  full  day  if  they 
turned  him  in  after  the  three  hours'  work  was  performed. 

Mr.  Burgess:  Therefore,  by  working  you  the  thirteen 
hours  it  would,  eventually,  prove  a  more  economical  operation 
for  the  company? 

Mr.  Burns:  I  think  that  the  long  hours  worked  in  yard 
service  is  from  an  economical  point  of  view,  in  the  operating 
department. 

Mr.  Park :  Would  it  be  practicable,  if  you  were  at  Sugar 
Creek,  at  the  end  of  the  ten  hours,  to  relieve  you  there  and 
put  another  man  on  the  engine! 

Mr.  Burns :     They  have  done  that. 

Mr,  Park :     Is  there  a  roundhouse  there,  or  a  terminal  ? 

Mr.  Burns :  They  have  done  it  in  this  way.  They  double 
crewed  the  Sugar  Creek  engine,  the  engine  that  does  the  Sugar 
Creek  work,  by  relieving  the  crew  there  with  a  night  crew.  The 
night  crew  would  finish  up  what  the  day  crew  could  not  do  Avith- 
out  working  overtime,  and  come  into  the  terminal  and  finish 
out  the  night  in  the  terminal. 

"^     Mr.  Park :     That  would  necessitate  some  of  the  crews  living 
at  that  end  of  the  short  run,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Burns:  If  it  was  made  permanent  it  possibly  would, 
yes.  But  they  never  kept  that  practice  up  long  enough  for  any- 
body to  move  out  there. 

Mr.  Park:  Isn't  it  preferable  that  the  engineers  live  in 
the  city  rather  than  out  at  Sugar  Creek? 

Mr.  Burns :  Well,  there  is  no  doubt  in  the  world  but  what 
you  could  find  a  man  that  would  gladly  move  out  there ;  it  is  not 
a  bad  place  to  live. 

Mr.  Park:  A  single  man,  but  take  a  man  with  a  family 
and  children.    They  could  attend  school,  could  they? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  they  could  attend  school.     It  is  not  far 


841 

out  of  town,  and  tlie  school  facilities  are  good  at  Sugar  Creek 
and  also  any  place  in  that  vicinity. 

Mr.  Park :     That  is  all. 

Mr,  Sheean:  Mr.  Burns,  I  understood  you  to  say,  that 
on  this  run  you  have  sometimes  got  in  under  ten  hours,  but 
very  rarely,  and  that,  at  times,  it  took  you  even  up  to  fourteen 
hours  to  complete  the  work.  At  the  time  you  start  out  in  the 
morning  and  leave  the  yard,  there  is  no  way  of  telling  what  the 
work  will  be  at  Sugar  Creek,  as  to  whether  or  not  there  are  a 
certain  number  of  cars,  or  just  what  the  work  is  that  is  to  be 
done  at  that  point,  is  there  f 

Mr.  Burns :  There  are  very  few  industries  but  what  can 
give  a  pretty  fair  line-up  on  the  day's  work  by  10:30  A.  M.,  as 
to  the  number  of  cars  coming  out  and  the  number  of  empties  to 
be  brought  in. 

Mr.  Sheean :  In  the  actual  practice,  this  very  work  of  mak- 
ing the  two  round  trips,  has  run,  occasionally,  to  below  ten  hours, 
and  at  other  times  as  high  as  fourteen  hours? 

Mr.  Burns:  I  believe  I  stated  in  my  evidence  that  in  the 
last  four  years  there  have  been  a  few  instances  where  we  got 
in  in  less  than  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  understand  your  answer  to  Mr.  Burgess  to 
be  that,  if,  for  the  thirteen  hours '  service  that  you  perform  now, 
the  company  was  required,  under  its  schedules,  to  pay  for  twen- 
ty hours,  by  having  two  full  crews,  that,  of  course,  it  was  more 
economical  to  pay  for  thirteen  hours  only  rather  than  to  pay 
twenty  hours  for  thirteen  hours'  service.  The  operation,  as 
you  described  it,  would  require  the  paying  of  twenty  hours, 
would  it  not,  or  to  two  men  ten  hours  each? 

Mr.  Burns :  In  answering  Mr.  Burgess '  question,  he  asked 
me  if  I  was  relieved  at  the  expiration  of  ten  hours  by  a  night 
crew  or  another  crew,  and  there  were  only  three  hours'  work  to 
be  performed  by  me  on  this  run,  whether  that  man  would  receive 
a  full  day's  pay  for  the  three  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Yes. 

Mr.  Burns:  He  would,  but  that  would  not  be  performed 
very  much.  That  practice  would  not  be  performed.  They  could 
find  other  work  in  yard  service  to  fill  out  the  day  for  that  man. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Does  your  schedule  there  permit  the  assign- 
ment of  switching  crews  to   transfer   service,   sending  out  a 


842 

switching  crew  to  do  this  work,  or  putting  your  transfer  crew 
in  and  doing  switching  work? 

Mr.  Burns:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is,  you  can  be  used  part  of  the  time,  a 
part  of  your  day  in  switch  service,  and  a  part  of  your  day  in 
transfer  service,  can  you? 

Mr.  Burns:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     To  make  up  your  full  ten  hours! 

Mr.  Burns:    Yes,  sir,  there  is  no  question  about  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  as  operated  at  the  present  time,  this 
assignment  to  you,  is  this  particular  assignment  of  transfer 
work? 

Mr.  Burns :  Not  a  particular  assignment  of  transfer  work, 
because,  quite  frequently,  they  run  a  switch  engine  out  there 
to  help  out,  where  the  work  has  accumulated  more  than  we  can 
handle  in  thirteen  hours.  Then  they  run  a  night  switch  engine 
crew  out  there  to  finish  up,  and  bring  us  to  town. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Under  your  practice  down  there,  could  this 
company  relieve  you  out  at  Sugar  Creek  at  the  end  of  the  ten 
hours  ? 

Mr.  Burns :  The  practice  at  the  present  time  is  of  reliev- 
ing you  wherever  they  want  to  relieve  you.  It  don't  make  any 
difference  whether  it  is  where  you  can  get  home  or  not.  They 
can  relieve  me  five  or  six  miles  from  the  terminal  if  they  want 
to,  and  they  have. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Have  you  ever,  in  the  time  you  have  been  on 
this  transfer  run,  been  relieved  and  your  time  ended  at  any 
other  place  than  the  place  where  you  took  your  engine  in  the 
morning? 

Mr.  Burns :  Not,  unless  due  to  an  accident  or  something  of 
that  nature.  I  have  been  relieved  at  Duncan  Park  siding.  That 
is  about  two  miles  from  Sugar  Creek,  on  account  of  an  accident. 

Mr.  Sheean:     On  account  of  what? 

Mr.  Burns:  On  account  of  accidents,  or  the  track  being 
blockaded  so  we  could  not  get  in. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  never  have  been  relieved  at  any  other 
part  of  your  run  than  the  place  from  which  you  started  in  the 
morning,  except  in  case  of  accidents? 

Mr.  Burns:     No. 

Mr.  Sheean :     During  all  the  years  you  have  operated  there? 


843 

Mr.  Burns:  I  have  had  instructions  from  night  yardmas- 
ters  where  we  would  notify  them  that  our  thirteen  hours  were 
up  and  we  did  not  care  to  work  any  longer,  and  he  would  tell 
us  to  take  the  engine  into  the  roundhouse.  That  is  five  miles 
from  where  we  receive  the  engine  and  turn  her  in.  He  would 
say  to  turn  the  engine  into  the  roundhouse. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman:     Anything  further,  Mr.  Stone! 

Mr.  Stone:    No. 

The  Chairman:     Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  Burgess:  One  moment,  please.  Under  the  present 
method  of  operation,  Mr.  Bums,  there  would  be  no  occasion  to 
relieve  you  at  any  other  place  than  where  you  take  the  engine, 
because  you  usually  and  ordinarily  work  the  thirteen  hours,  is 
that  not  the  fact? 

Mr.  Burns :  We  have,  the  majority  of  the  time  I  have  been 
on  the  run,  we  have  worked  the  thirteen  hours,  and  our  work 
would  bring  us  closer  to  the  point  to  where  we  turn  in,  than  the 
roundhouse,  when  we  turn  in  to  the  same  place. 

Mr.  Burgess:     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman:     Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  Stone:  Our  next  witness  will  be  Mr.  Morton  A.  Lea, 
switch  engineer  of  the  Chicago  &  North  Western,  in  the  Chicago 
terminal.  This  witness  is  introduced  to  show  that  he  is  doing 
exactly  the  same  work  as  that  described  by  Mr.  Goulding  this 
morning. 

MORTON  A.  LEA  was  called  as  a  witness,  and  having  been 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone:    What  class  of  service  are  you  in,  Mr.  Leaf 
Mr.  Lea:     Transfer  service. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  is  the  special  run  that  you  are  on  now, 
what  is  it  described  as? 

Mr.  Lea:    North  Avenue  Transfer. 

Mr.  Stone:    How  many  years  have  you  been  in  the  service! 

Mr.  Lea:     Twenty-five  years  and  three  months. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is,  twenty-five  years  as  an  engineer? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 


844 

Mr.  (Stone:  Of  that  time  liow  many  years  have  >'f>n  been  in 
the  transfer  service  ? 

Mr.  Lea:     About  five  vears. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  class  of  engine  are  you  running f 

Mr.  Lea:     Class  R-1. 

Mr.  Stone:  Well,  what  does  that  mean,  on  the  North  West- 
em;  what  is  an  R-1,  a  ten  wheeler? 

Mr.  Lea:  It  is  a  ten  wheeler,  six  wheels  connected  with  the 
truck,  the  engine  truck. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  is  the  weight  of  this  engine  on  drivers, 
Mr.  Lea? 

Mr.  Lea:     126,000  pounds. 

Mr.  Stone :  That  would  make  quite  a  good  sized  engine,  an 
engine  with  probably  21  or  22  by  26? 

Mr.  Lea:     21  bv  26. 

Mr.  Stone:     Cylinders? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  rate  of  pay  do  you  receive  for  this 
service  ? 

Mr.  Lea:     41V'  cents  per  hour. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  the  switching  rate  of  pay? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  wish  you  would  describe  to  this  Board,  in 
your  own  waj",  the  character  of  the  service  you  are  required  to 
perform — what  time  do  you  report  for  duty? 

Mr.  Lea:     At  about  6:10  or  6:15. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  time  are  you  required  to  leave? 

Mr.  Lea :     Seven  o  'clock. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then,  if  I  understand  correctly,  you  report 
for  duty  about  forty  or  forty-five  minutes  before  the  time  you 
are  required  to  leave? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  do  you  do  in  that  forty-five  minutes? 

Mr.  Lea:  Get  my  supplies,  carry  them  over  to  the  round- 
house, register,  look  over  the  bulletin  board,  get  the  engine  ready, 
fill  the  lubricators,  screw  down  the  grease  cups,  get  the  engine 
out  of  the  house,  blow  off  the  boiler,  and  take  water. 

Mr.  Stone:  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  you  take  the  en- 
gine out  of  the  house? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 


845 

Mr.  Stone :  Then  you  hostle  your  own  engine  in  the  morn- 
ing? . 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Well,  how  much  do  you  receive  for  all  that 
forty-five  minutes'? 

Mr.  Lea:     Nothing, 

Mr.  Stone:     Nothing! 

Mr.  Lea:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Your  time  of  pay  does  not  begin  until  7  o'clock. 

Mr.  Lea :     7  o  'clock. 

Mr.  Stone :  All  right,  now,  at  7  o'clock  when  you  are  ready 
to  leave  the  w^ater  crane,  or  the  pen  stock,  as  you  call  it,  on  the 
North  Western,  what  do  you  do  ? 

Mr.  Lea :     Go  up  in  the  yard. 

Mr.  Stone:     Where  at? 

Mr.  Lea :  At  40th  Street,  40th  Street  Yard.  Pump  up  the 
train,  test  our  brakes  and  leave. 

Mr.  Stone :     Leave  for  where  I    Where  do  you  go  then  I 

Mr.  Lea :     For  North  Avenue. 

Mr.  Stone:    What  distance  is  that? 

Mr.  Lea :     About  ten  miles. 

Mr.  Stone:     Well,  after  you  arrive  there,  what  do  you  do  I 

Mr.  Lea :  We  cut  our  engine  oif  from  the  train,  get  water, 
couple  up  our  train  and  get  ready  to  come  back  again  and  come 
back. 

Mr.  Stone :  Do  I  understand  that  you  do  not  do  any  switch- 
ing at  either  end  of  that  trip? 

Mr.  Lea:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     The  train  is  made  up  for  you? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir.  , 

Mr.  Stone:  And  when  you  arrive  at  North  Avenue  the 
switch  engine  takes  care  of  your  train? 

Mr.  Lea :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Then  you  are  really  a  freight  train,  are. you? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     Yet  you  are  paid  switching  pay? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then  you  come  back  from  North  avenue  and 
what  do  you  do? 

Mr.  Lea :     We  usually  have  a  straight  train  for  40th  Street. 


846 

SometiiiK^s  wo  have  not,  and  fill  out  the  train  by  picking  up  at 
Mayfair. 

Mr.  Stone :  All  right ;  go  ahead  and  describe  what  you  do — 
vou  come  back  to  40th  Street? 

Mr.  Lea:     We  come  back  to  40th  Street. 

Mr.  Stone :     Then,  what  do  you  do  ? 

Mr.  Lea:  Cut  off  the  train,  pick  up  the  way  car,  go  to  the 
roundhouse  for  coal  and  water,  dump  our  ash  pan,  go  out  into 
the  yard  again,  put  our  way  car  in  another  train,  and  sometimes 
double  from  one  track  to  another,  and  leave  for  North  avenue. 

Mr.  Stone :     That  is  the  second  trip ! 
^- .      Mr.  Lea :     That  is  the  second  trip. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  you  always  get  your  train  out,  or  do  you 
liave  the  assistance  of  helpers  at  times  ? 

Mr.  Lea:  We  have  the  assistance  of  helpers  most  of  the 
time. 

Mr.  Stone:  The  train  is  so  heavy  your  engine  will  not 
handle  the  train  out  of  the  yard? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Well,  going  out  on  the  second  trip,  where  do 
you  set  cars  out  at? 

Mr.  Lea:  Occasionally  at  Mayfair  and  at  Hetler's  lead. 
That  is  a  regular  thing,  to  set  cars  out  on  this  track  at  Hetler's 
lead. 

Mr.  Stone :  When  you  get  to  North  avenue  on  the  second 
trip,  then  you  go  through  the  same  performance  of  cutting  the 
engine  off  and  turning  again? 

Mr.  Lea :     Exactly. 

Mr.  Stone:     Or  don't  you  turn  the  engine? 

Mr.  Lea :  We  don 't  turn  the  engine.  We  back  up  one  way, 
h.ead  over  and  back  up  one  way. 

Mr.  Stone :  And  get  a  train  again  and  come  back  to  40th 
street  yard? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  the  second  round  trip  you  have  made? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Now,  when  you  get  back  on  the  second  trip, 
wliat  do  you  do  then? 

Mr.  Lea:  We  get  a  train  off  of  track  19  and  transfer  it 
to  another  vard. 


847 

Mr.  Stone:     How  far  away? 

Mr.  Lea :  Well,  the  movement  would  require  possibly  half 
or  three-quarters  of  a  mile,  joulling  them  down  from  one  yard 
and  shoving  them  ahead  in  another. 

Mr.  Stone:  Then,  after  vou  have  delivered  this  train  to 
the  other  yard,  then  what? 

Mr.  Lea:    Put  our  way  car  away  and  then  go  home. 

Mr.  Stone:  Well,  you  do  more  before  you  go  home,  don't 
'you — -you  go  to  the  roundhouse  first  with  your  engine? 

Mr.  Lea:  Yes,  put  the  engine  in  on  a  designated  track, 
look  her  over,  put  our  oil  cans  and  supplies  away,  go  up  to  the 
roundhouse  and  register,  and  make  out  necessary  reports. 

Mr.  Stone :  Well,  in  doing  all  of  this  work  that  you  have 
described,  do  you  use  the  main  line  in  doing  this? 

Mr.  Lea:     All  the  time. 

Mr.  Stone:     All  main  line  work? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Wliat  mileage  do  you  make  daily,  on  the  aver- 
age? 

Mr.  Lea:     About  forty  miles. 

Mr.  Stone:     On  the  main  line? 

Mr.  Lea :     On  the  main  line. 

Mr.  Stone:    How  many  hours  do  you  work  daily? 

Mr.  Lea:     Eleven  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:  Does  any  part  of  your  day's  work  consist  of 
yard  switching? 

Mr.  Lea:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  About  how  much  of  this  transfer  service  is 
there  on  the  Chicago  &  North  Western,  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  Lea:     About  twenty-two  runs,  I  think. 

Mr.  Stone :  We  would  understand  from  that  that  there  are 
twenty- two  crews  doing  this  same  character  of  work? 

Mr.  Lea:    Practically  the  same. 

Mr.  Stone:    I  think  that  is  all,  Mr.  Sheean. 

CROSS  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Lea,  all  of  these  movements  that  you 
make  here,  from  day  to  day,  are  inside  what  is  known  as  the 
Chicago  Switching  District,  aren't  they? 

Mr.  Lea:     Chicago  Terminal. 


848 

Mr.  Sbeeaii:  Chicago  Termiual  District,  which  is  smaller 
even  than  tlio  Chicago  Switcliing  District,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Lea:    Well,  I  would  judge  it  is  the  same  thing. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Tlie  movements  you  have  described  are  from 
one  yard  of  the  Chicago  &  North  Western  to  another  yard? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  movement  after  the  second  round 
trip,  the  last  movement  of  the  day,  is  taking  a  train  from  one 
part  of  the  yard  over  to  another  part  of  the  same  yard,  isn't 
it?  I  understood  you  to  say  that  it  involved  altogether  one-half 
to  three-quarters  of  a  mile  in  going  over  and  backing  up — is 
that  all  in  what  is  known  as  the  one  yard?  I  don't  care  partic- 
ularly as  to  whether  there  are  different  leads  there,  but  do  yon 
speak  of  that  as  all  the  one  j'ard? 

Mr.  Lea :  That  is  all  in  one  yard.  The  tracks  are  all  as- 
sembled  in  that  district. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  on  how  many  of  these  tracks  that  you 
move  on,  do  any  passenger  trains  operate? 

Mr.  Lea :     On  how  many  tracks  ? 

Mr.  Sheean:    Yes. 

Mr.  Lea:     All  of  them. 

Mr.  Sheean :  All  passenger  trains  on  the  Chicago  &  North 
Western  go  over  the  same  tracks  on  which  you  make  this  move- 
ment between  the  two  yards? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  between  the  North  Avenue  transfer  or 
the  North  Avenue  yard  and  the  40th  Street  yard,  how  many 
main  tracks  are  there? 

Mr.  Lea:  From  Clybourn  Junction  to  Mayfair,  there  are 
three  main  tracks,  from  Mayfair  to  40th  Street  there  are  two. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  you  do  not  get  any  train  orders  in  mov- 
ing from  one  to  the  other  of  these  yards? 

Mr.  Lea:     No,  the  tracks  are  equipped  with  block  signals. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Over  all  the  part  that  you  run,  it  is  all  under 
block,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Lea:  From  Mayfair  to  Hunting  Avenue,  a  distance 
of  about  five  miles. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  you  say  you  have  been  an  engineer  fot 
over  twenty-five  years? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 


849 

Mr.  Sheean:     With  the  Chicago  &  North  Western  all  this 
timef 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Running  on  the  road  a  part  of  the  time? 

Mr.  Lea:    A  part  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  what  run  were  you  on,  Mr.  Lea,  when 
you  were  on  the  road? 

Mr.  Lea :     I  was  not  in  road  service  long  enough  to  have  a 
regular  run. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Well,  on  what  division  of  the  railway  was 
your  run? 

Mr.  Lea :     Galena  Division. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  running  from  Chicago  to  Freeport? 

Mr.  Lea :     Clinton  and  Freeport. 

Mr.  Sheean:     How  long  were  you  on  the  road? 

Mr.  Lea:    A  very  short  time — Oh,  possibly  two  or  three 
months  altogether. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Two  or  three  months  altogether? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     How  long  have  you  been  in  yard  service? 

Mr.  Lea :     All  of  the  rest  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Well,  you  started  in,  did  you,  originally,  as 
a  road  fireman  ? 

Mr.  Lea:     No,  I  started  in  as  a  switch  engine  fireman. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Switch  engine  fireman? 

Mr.  Lea :     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :     How  long  did  you  fire  a  switch  engine  ? 

Mr.  Lea :     I  fired  four  years  and  a  half  altogether. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Part  of  that  in  switching  and  part  on  the 
main  line? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  then,  when  you  were  promoted  to  engi- 
neer, did  you  run  an  engine  on  the  main  line  ? 

Mr.  Lea :     Yes,  sir,  part  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Sheean:     For  a  few  months,  I  believe? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :    Well,  this  work  that  you  have  in  yard  service, 
did  you  select  that  under  your  seniority? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Back,  twenty  years  ago? 


850 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Very  shortly  after  you  became  eligible  to 
road  service? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  the  selection  of  this  work  here  in 
Chicago  in  switching  service,  was  of  yonr  own  volition,  twenty- 
one  years  or  more  ago. 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  yard  service  and  the  transfer  service 
here  in  Chicago,  within  the  Chicago  Terminal  District,  are 
interchangeable  in  seniority,  aren't  they? 

Mr.  liea :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  is  the  seniority  in  the  yard  separate 
from  the  seniority  on  the  road? 

Mr.  Lea :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But,  a  road  man  may  exercise  his  seniority  in 
the  yards  if  he  wishes  ? 

Mr.  Lea:    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Not  now? 

Mr.  Lea:  We  have  a  terminal  division  that  is  a  separate 
and  distinct  division.  A  man  cannot  come  from  another  division 
into  the  terminal  division  any  more  than  I  could  go  from  the 
terminal  division  onto  a  foreign  division. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  I  was  wondering,  Mr.  Lea,  whether, 
back  twenty  years  ago,  that  was  the  situation,  when  you  exer- 
cised your  rights  and  took  a  switch  engine — I  understood  you  to 
say  that  was  your  own  selection? 

Mr.  Lea :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  you  could,  at  that  time,  have  gone  into 
yard  service,  or  retained  your  road  rights? 

Mr.  Lea :    At  that  time. 

Mr.  Sheean :    If  you  wanted  them  ? 

Mr.  Lea :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But,  since  that  time,  the  seniority  in  the  yard 
is  separate  from  the  seniority  on  the  road? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir,  in  this  division,  this  terminal  division. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  you  ran  a  switch  engine  in  the  switching 
service  here  in  Chicago  until  some  two  or  three  years  ago,  when 
you  took  this  transfer  run? 

Mr.  Lea :     About  five  years  ago. 


851 

Mr.  Sheean :    About  five  years  ago  1  ... 

Mr.  Lea :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  have  had  the  same  transfer  run  all  this 
time?  '. 

Mr.  Lea :    Oh,  no. 

Mr.  Sheean :    You  have  had  different  runs  I 

Mr.  Lea :    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  The  transfer  run  that  you  have  described  here 
is  one  that  you  have  been  on  about  how  long? 

Mr.  Lea :     Something  over  a  year. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Do  your  rights  here  in  the  terminal. district, 
seniority  rights,  cover  suburban  runs? 

Mr.  Lea:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  are  not  eligible  for  promotion  to  any 
suburban  run  in  that  district? 

Mr.  Lea :    No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Limited  simply  to  the  switching  service  ? 

Mr.  Lea:  No,  we  have  a  work  train  service.  The  work 
trains  that  are  within  the  limits  of  the  terminal  division,  that  is 
our  work ;  our  work  is  not  limited  to  switch  engine  service  alone. 

Mr.  Sheean :    Any  work  then,  in  the  way  of  track  elevation, 
or  anything  of  that  sort,  that  is  done  within  this  terminal  dis- . 
trict,  belong  to  the  men  in  the  terminal  district? 

Mr.  Lea :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     The  switch  engineers? 

Mr.  Lea :     Yes,  sir., 
,  Mr.  Sheean :     About  wiiat  time,  ordinarilv,  Mr.  Lea,  do  vou 
get  through  work  each  day  ? 

Mr.  Lea:     Well,  from  ]ialf  past  four  until  six  o'clock, 

Mr.  Sheean :     And  about  what  time,  or  where,  ordinarily, 
do  you  get  your  lunch  on  the  run  that  you  have  at  the  present, 
time? 

Mr.  Lea:  For  the  convenience  of  the  company  as  well  as 
our  own,  we  do  not  stop  for  lunch.  We  go  to  work  and  we  make 
our  two  round  trips  as  quickly  as  possible,  because  in  that  dis- 
trict, the  Wisconsin  Division,  the  traffic  is  congested,  there  are 
many  passenger  trains,  and  if  you  do  not  get  out  of  there  by  a 
certain  time  in  the  afternoon,  we  have  to  lay  there  until  seven 
o'clock  at  night,  the  passenger  trains  are  so  thick  that  we  can- 
not get  out  with  a  freight  train ;  and,  in  order  to  get  this  work 


852 

done,  wheu  we  can  get  over  these  tracks,  we  go  right  aloug  and 
get  through  with  the  two  trips  as  soon  as  we  can. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then,  after  you  have  completed  those  two 
trips,  whatever  time  you  take — it  would  take  about  a  day  in 
the  way  that  you  operate  on  that  particular  line? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  is  no  particular  schedule  provision  as 
to  a  certain  length  of  time  for  eating  on  that  run? 

Mr.  Lea:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  a  matter  of  practice  what  do  you  do? 
You  have  something  to  eat,  some  time? 

Mr.  Lea:  There  is  an  article  in  the  schedule  that  says  we 
shall  have  thirty  minutes  between  the  hours  of  11:30  and  1 
o'clock,  but  this  is  an  agreement  between  this  particular  crew 
and  the  yardmaster  to  do  this  work  when  we  can  and  get  through 
with  it. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  get  through  Avith  it? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  have  practically,  then,  a  fixed  assign- 
ment there,  have  you,  Mr.  Lea,  on  this  particular  run?  If  you 
get  through  with  it  at  4:30,  well  and  good,  if  it  runs  until  6 
o'clock  you  are  paid  for  the  full  time  of  eleven  hours  a  day  for 
that? 

Mr  Lea:     Yes,  eleven  hours  a  day. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Whether  you  get  through  at  four  o'clock  or 
six,  or  do  you  get  overtime  after  4:30? 

Mr.  Lea:     Overtime  after  6  o'clock. 

Mr.  Sheean:     After  6  o'clock? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  For  the  mutual  convenience  of  all  concerned 
there  you  trj'  to  get  these  particular  runs  completed,  and  when 
that  is  done  your  day's  work  is  done? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Sometimes  it  is  4:30,  other  times  it  runs  up 
to  6f 

Mr.  Lea :     Yes,  sir,  and  sometimes  later. 

Mr.  Sheean:     After  6,  then  there  would  be  overtime  paid? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  But  if  you  get  through  with  it  at  4 :30  in  the 
afternoon  you  are  paid  eleven  times  42^  cents? 


853 

Mr.  Lea :     Yes,  sir 

Mr.  Sheean :     Each  day  ? 

Mr.  Lea :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  that  six  days  in  the  week  that  that  oper- 
ates? 

Mr.  Lea:     It  works  some  Sundays. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Some  Sundays'? 

Mr.  Lea:  About  half  of  the  time,  I  should  imagine,  all 
days  with  the  exception  of  two  Sundays  a  month.  That  is  about 
as  it  runs. 

Mr.  Sheean:  On  Simdays  the  lengtli  of  time  for  it  is  about 
the  same,  is  it? 

Mr.  Lea:     Just  about  the  same. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  is  some  special  arrangement  for  pay- 
ing eleven  hours  for  that  particular  run,  that  particular  job 
there,  is  it? 

Mr,  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  This  run  was  chosen  by  you  as  furnishing 
pretty  regular  and  steady  employment? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  suppose  a  part  of  this  time,  during  the  day, 
from  the  time  you  go  to  work  until  you  are  relieved  in  the  after- 
noon, you  are  waiting  to  have  a  clear  track  to  make  this  run  of 
ten  miles? 

Mr.  Lea:  Yes,  we  have  to  wait  until  we  get  time  to  go 
ahead  of  the  passenger  train. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Lea,  you  say  you  don't  do  any  switching, 
and  you  run  altogether  about  forty  miles  during  the  day,  so 
that,  if  there  is  no  switching  done,  and  your  total  run  is  only 
forty  miles  in  this  spread  of  time,  you  are  waiting  for  the  chance 
to  make  the  run  back  and  forth  between  those  yards,  are  you 
not? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     A  considerable  part  of  the  time! 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  is  all. 

EE-DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone:  During  that  time  you  are  waiting,  Mr.  Lea, 
you  are  on  duty  all  of  that  time,  are  you  not? 


854 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     And  held  responsible  for  the  engine? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Coming  back  to  the  question  of  selecting  that 
run,  in  regard  to  that,  you  selected  it  because  it  was  one  of  the 
best  runs  there  was  in  that  class  of  service? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  I  think  you  said  in  reply  to  Mr.  Sheean's  ques- 
tion, that,  after  you  had  made  those  two  round  trips,  you  took 
a  train  from  one  part  of  the  yard  to  another.  Is  it  not  a  fact, 
that  they  are  separate,  those  North  Western  yards,  in  the  classi- 
fication of  the  North  Western;  one  is  known  as  the  break  up 
yard  and  the  other  is  known  as  the  swamp  yard? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Going  back  to  that  question  of  holding  seniority 
on  both  the  road  and  in  the  yard,  is  it  not  a  fact  that,  on  the 
North  Western,  for  a  number  of  years,  on  the  Wisconsin  Divi- 
sion, the  men  held  rights,  both  in  the  terminal  and  on  the  road? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  other  words,  is  it  not  a  fact,  that  that  com- 
pany segregated  the  yard  from  the  road  service,  a  few  years 
ago  ? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  compelled  the  men  to  make  their  choice 
as  to  which  one  they  wanted  to  go  to? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     It  was  not  the  request  of  the  men? 

Mr.  Lea:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     It  was  forced  on  them  by  the  company? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Park:  At  the  time  that  separation  was  made,  could 
you  not  have  stayed  in  road  service,  if  you  had  so  elected? 

Mr.  Loa:     I  think  so.    I  didn't  make  any  application. 

Mr.  Park:  That  would  have  made  you  eligible  to  any 
train  in  road  service,  under  the  order  of  your  seniority? 

Mr.  Lea:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Park:     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman:     Anything  further? 

Mr.  Nagel:    Mr.  Lea,  you  are  clear  that  if  you  were  to 


I 


855 

devote  sixty  hours  at  45  cents,  you  would  rather  do  the  work  in 
six  days  of  ten  hours  each  than  in  five  days  of  twelve  hours 
each! 

Mr.  Lea:     I  would,  yes. 

Mr.  Nagel:    You  think  that  is  the  universal  opinion? 

Mr,  Lea:     T  think  it  is. 

Mr.  Nagel:  But,  it  is  true,  is  it  not,  that  there  are  situa- 
tions where  the  ten  hour  a  day  rule  can  not  be  literally  observed, 
and  where  the  situation  has  to  be  met  by  the  allowance  of  over- 
time? . 

Mr.  Lea :     I  don 't  know  as  to  that. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Are  there  not  situations  where  it  would  not  be 
feasible  to  have  the  engineer  leave  his  engine,  at  the  end  of  ten 
hours? 

Mr.  Lea:  Well,  I  couldn't  say.  It  seems  to  me  as  though 
it  could  be  arranged,  all  right. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Is  it  the  purpose  of  your  demand  here  in  ask- 
ing for  an  allowance  for  an  overtime,  to  secure  compensation  for 
work  beyond  ten  hours,  and  also  to  discourage  the  practice  of 
keeping  men  engaged  after  ten  hours  ? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Nagel:  Would  it  be  feasible  at  all,  to  have  the  dif- 
ferent assignments  among  engineers  rotate  from  time  to  time, 
instead  of  keeping  one  engineer  at  the  same  assignment  all  the 
time? 

Mr,  Lea:     Would  it  be? 

Mr.  Nagel:  Would  it  be  feasible  to  have  assignments  ro- 
tate so  as  to  give  engineers  the  night  work  for  a  time,  and  day 
work  for  a  time  ? 

Mr.  Lea:     I  don't  think  it  would  be  agreeable  to  the  men, 

Mr,  Nagel:     Pardon? 

Mr,  Lea:     I  don't  think  it  would  be  agreeable, 

Mr,  Nagel:     It  would  interfere  with  seniority,  would  it  not? 

Mr,  Lea:     Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Nagel :     Is  that  the  only  objection  to  it  ? 

Mr.  Lea :     No,  I  think  there  would  be  other  objections. 

Mr.  Nagel :    Practical  objections  ? 

Mr.  Lea:     Yes,  I  think  so. 

The  Chairman:  I  cannot  get  many  of  your  answers.  I 
wish  you  would  speak  a  little  more  distinctly. 


856 

Mr.  Nagel:     Would  it  lead  to  confusion? 

Mr.  Lea:     I  think  it  would. 

Mr.  Nagel:  In  other  words,  you  think  it  would  meet  with 
practical  objection  and  practical  difficulties. 

Mr.  Lea:     I  didn't  get  that. 

Mr.  Nagel :  You  think  it  would  meet  with  practical  difficul- 
ties? 

Mr.  Lea :     Yes,  I  think  it  would. 

Mr.  Nagel:  It  not  only  would  he  undesirable  on  the  part  of 
the  engineers  themselves,  who  want  to  keep  the  positions  they 
have,  but  it  Avould  not  operate  satisfactorily  so  far  as  the  man- 
agement itself  was  concerned ! 

Mr.  Lea:    Well,  I  don't  think  it  would. 

Mr.  Park:     A  little  louder,  please. 

Mr.  Lea:  I  don't  think  it  would  be  satisfactory  to  the  men; 
neither  do  I  think  it  would  be  to  the  best  interests  of  the  com- 
pany. 

Mr.  Nagel:     You  don't  think  it  would? 

Mr.  Lea:    No. 

Mr.  Nagel:     That  is  all. 

The  Chairman:     Call  your  next  witness,  Mr.  Stone. 

Mr.  Stone :     That  is  all. 

(Witness  excused.) 

Mr.  Stone:  Before  calling  the  next  witness,  I  should  like 
to  olfer  as  Exhibit  16,  a  photographic  copy  of  an  exhibit  that 
was  filed  by  the  Conference  Committee  of  Managers  in  the  recent 
arbitration  with  the  Trainmen  and  Conductors,  in  the  Eastern 
Territory. 

In  explanation,  I  want  to  say  that  I  have  not  checked  these 
rates  at  all.  I  take  it  for  granted,  of  course,  that  they  are  cor- 
rect, because  they  were  presented  as  an  exhibit  by  the  Confer- 
ence Committee  of  Managers;  and  these  are  simply  photographic 
reproductions  made  on  a  photostat,  reading,  as  follows: 

"Conference  Committee  of  Managers.  Eastern  Territory. 
New  York.  Present  rates  of  pay.  Conductors  and  Trainmen. 
Western  Territory.    Switching  service. ' ' 

It  is  introduced,  for  the  purpose  of  showing  to  the  Board, 
the  fact  that  conductors  and  switchmen  in  yard  service  at  night, 
are  paid  a  higher  rate  in  the  Western  territory.    You  will  see 


857 

the  rate  running  all  the  way  through.  It  was  introduced  by  the 
Managers  as  one  of  their  exhil)its.  I  only  have  two  extra  copies, 
Mr.  Sheean. 

Mr.  Shea :  Mr.  Stone,  does  this  cover  all  roads  in  the  pres- 
ent Arbitration? 

Mr.  Stone:  I  have  not  checked  it,  but  I  think  so.  I  am 
requested,  by  the  other  side,  to  make  it  very  plain  that  it  was 
a  different  Conference  Committee  of  Managers  that  presented 
this  exhibit,  from  the  ones  here. 

Mr.  Shea :  Probably,  Mr.  Stone,  the  situation  was  entirely 
different  at  the  time  this  was  presented. 

Mr.  Stone :  Yes,  it  was  different  then.  They  were  trying 
to  prove  that  the  Eastern  men  were  not  entitled  to  anything. 
We  are  simply  using,  therefore,  some  of  their  own  ammunition. 

(The  document,  so  offered  and  identified,  was  received  in 
evidence  and  thereupon  marked  *' Employes'  Exhibit  No.  16, 
December  10,  1914.") 

Mr.  Stone:  Now,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  had  expected  to  con- 
tinue with  the  present  switching  engineers,  but,  unfortunately, 
two  of  the  men  are  not  here ;  so  I  am  going  to  digress  and  put 
on  a  man  from  heavy  freight  service.    I  will  call  Mr.  Jones. 

I  want  to  say,  Mr.  Chairman,  for  Mr.  Jones,  that  he  comes 
from  the  Shasta  division  of  the  Southern  Pacific,  what  is  known 
as  the  Tunnel  Division.  And,  I  will  say  this  while  he  is  living, — 
you  know  we  generally  wait  until  a  man  is  dead  and  then  say 
nice  things  about  him ;  here  is  one  of  our  crack  men.  There  may 
be  other  engineers  just  as  good;  there  are  no  engineers  any 
better. 

C.  E.  D.  JONES  was  called  as  a  witness  and  having  been 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone:  Now,  Mr.  Jones,  I  hope  you  will  talk  loud 
enough  so  they  can  hear  you. 

Mr.  Jones:     All  right.    I  will  make  an  effort. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  will  talk  louder  than  that  if  you  do.  This 
is  digressing  for  a  minute,  but  the  thing  that  impresses  me  is 
the  weak  voices  our  engineers  have  here.  But,  when  you  get 
them  out  in  actual  practice  they  can  tell  a  conductor  what  they 


SoS 


Mr.  Jones : 
Mr.  Stone: 
Mr.  Jones : 
Mr.  Stone: 
Mr.  Jones: 

Mr.  Stone: 


th^Tl\z  of  y^^rn  forty  ears  away  and  they  can  hear  them  all  the 
time. 

Mr.  Xagel :     We  do  not  need  as  impressive  a  method  as  that. 
Mr.  Stone:     Mr.  Jones,  what  class  of  service  are  you  in! 
Helper  service. 

That  is,  freight  and  helper  service  ? 
Freight,  passenger  and  all  kinds  of  service. 
How  long  have  you  been  in  this  service ! 
In  this  service,  about  three  years. 
When  you  say  helper  service,  I  think  perhaps 
you  had  better  explain  to  the  Board  what  you  mean  by  helper 
service. 

Mr.  Jones :  I  am  assigned  to  service,  working  on  a  schedule 
of  ten  hours  a  day  or  less :  and  the  purpose  of  the  helper  engi- 
neer is  to  assist  all  trains  over  the  grade,  either  freight  or 
passenffer. 

GeneraUy  there  are  a  number  of  men  assigned  to  this  serv- 
ice at  different  helper  stations,  and  they  run  first  in  first  out, 
as  it  is  called  in  this  service.  I  may  help  a  passenger  train  on 
the  first  trip  on  the  front ;  and  on  the  second  trip  I  may  be  on  the 
rear  end  of  a  passenger  train,  and  on  the  first  trip  I  might  be 
fourth  to  the  end  of  a  freight  train,  and  on  the  second  trip  I 
might  be  the  fifth  engine  on  the  freight  train.  It  depends  alto- 
gether on  the  service  we  are  called  uj)on  to  perform. 

Mr.  Stone:  And  you  have  been  the  sixth  engine  on  a 
freight  train! 

Mr.  Jones :    Yes,  I  have  been  the  sixth  engine  on  a  freight 
train  in  this  through  freight  service. 
Mr.  Nagel :    What  road  is  this. 
Southern  Pacific. 
Shasta  Division. 
Yes,  running  from  Dunsmuir. 
Running  from  where? 
Dunsmuir,  California,  to  Ashland,  Oregon. 
What  class  of  engine  do  you  run? 
We  have  three  classes  of  engines  in  this  serv- 
ice.   The  Consolidation,  22  by  30, 187,000  pounds  on  the  drivers. 
Then  there  are  the  Mikados,  2334  by  30,  186,000  pounds  on 
the  drivers. 


Mr.  Jones: 
Mr.  Stone: 
Mr.  Jones : 
Mr.  Stone: 
Mr.  Jones: 
Mr.  Stone: 
Mr.  Jones: 


859 

Then  the  superheated  Mikado,  23?4,  187,000  pounds  on  the 
drivers. 

Mr.  Stone:  Don't  you  have  a  Mikado  weighing  207,000 
pounds  ? 

Mr.  Jones :     Xo,  we  have  nothing  over  the  187,000  pK)unds- 

Mr.  Stone :  Has  there  been  any  increase  in  tonnage  rating 
for  these  engines  since  19101 

Mr.  Jones:  There  has  been  no  change,  not  as  shown  by 
the  timetable,  but  there  has  through  instruction.  The  Mikado 
engines  have  been  placed  in  service  on  our  division  since  1910. 
They  handle  about  90  M  's,  over  what  the  Consolidations  did  at 
that  time. 

Mr.  Stone:  When  you  say  90  M's,  what  do  you  mean  by 
that? 

Mr.  Jones:  Our  tonnage  is  not  tons.  It  is  M's;  thousand 
pormds. 

Mr.  Stone :    In  other  words,  you  handle  90,000  j)ounds  ? 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes.  that  is,  45  tons  more  than  a  Consolidation. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  understood  you  to  say  that  the  published 
rating  of  the  Consolidation  engine  is  the  same  now  as  it  was  in 
1910* 

Mr.  Jones:  Xo,  it  was  695,  I  believe,  in  1910.  and  710  at 
the  present  time,  if  I  am  not  mistaken. 

Mr.  Stone:  Did  you  always  handle  the  tonnage  rating  in 
1910? 

Mr.  Jones:  Xo.  we  handled,  as  a  rule,  S5  per  cent;  but 
now  we  take  full  tonnage,  over  if  necessary,  to  get  the  full  ton- 
nage. That  is  slightly.  We  couldn't  pull  anything  much  over 
50  M  's  or  we  will  say  25  tons,  something  like  that.  If  they  put 
in  any  more  we  set  out  a  car. 

Mr.  Stone :  Has  there  been  any  material  change  in  condi- 
tions on  account  of  the  larger  engines  running  through  tunnels  ? 

Mr.  Jones :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  How  manv  tunnels  have  vou  on  the  mountain 
there  ! 

Mr.  Jones:  On  this  one  district,  107  miles,  there  are  five 
tunnels :  sixteen  on  the  division  of  207  miles. 

Mr.  Stone :  On  the  Siskiyou  grade,  how  many  tunnels  have 
you  there,  Siskiyou  Mountain? 

Mr.  Jones :    We  have  four. 


860 

Mr.  Stone:     In  a  distance  of  what? 

Mr.  Jones:     Seventeen  miles — eighteen  miles. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  the  early  days  when  these  tunnels  were  con- 
structed, they  were  built  to  fit  the  power  of  those  days,  were  they 
not? 

Mr.  Jones :     Small  power,  yes. 

Mr.  Stone :  How  much  clearance  have  you  with  the  present 
Mikado  engines  on  a  straight  track? 

Mr.  Jones :  I  should  judge,  as  near  as  I  could  judge,  there 
is  in  the  tunnels  probably  about  seventeen  to  twenty- two  inches 
side  clearance,  possibly  thirty-six  inches  from  the  stack  to  the 
roof  of  the  tunnel. 

Mr.  Stone:  With  that  small  clearance,  don't  it  get  pretty 
hot  on  the  fourth,  fifth  and  sixth  engines  ? 

Mr.  Jones:  It  is  impossible  to  get  through  there  without 
the  assistance  of  what  is  called  a  respirator. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  wish  you  would  show  to  tlie  Board  what  a 
respirator  is  and  how  it  is  used  in  going  through  a  tunnel,  if 
you  will. 

(The  witness  here  produced  a  respirator  and  exhibited  the 
same  to  the  Board.) 

Mr.  Jones:  This  is  the  apparatus  we  use  to  go  through 
there. 

Mr.  Stone :     Show  them  how  it  works. 

Mr.  Jones :     Inside  of  that  funnel  there  is  a  sponge. 

Mr.  Stone :  You  wet  it  with  water,  or  ice,  in  there  in  the 
summer  time,  beneath  the  sponge,  and  then  this  hose  is  attached 
to  the  main  reservoir  for  air.  The  air  is  compressed  in  this 
main  reservoir  for  breaking  purposes,  usually  at  130  pounds 
pressure,  so  this  pipe  here  enters  the  reservoir,  the  air  pipe 
leads  from  the  main  reservoir,  and  when  you  enter  these  tunnels 
you  put  that  up  to  your  face,  like  that,  and  regulate  the  flow  of 
air  through  here,  make  it  as  strong  as  you  can, an '1  that  of  course, 
passing  through  this  wet  sponge  supplies  air  so  as  to  enable  you 
to  breathe  when  coming  through  this  place.  We  use  it  on  all 
engines  on  freight  trains,  and  the  second  and  third  engines  on 
passenger  trains. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  respirator  is  furnished  to  you  by  the 
company  ? 

Mr.  Jones :     By  the  company,  yes,  sir. 


861 

Mr.  Stone:  They  recognize  that  it  is  necessary  to  use 
something  of  that  sort? 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  they  find  it  is  if  they  want  to  put  five  and 
SLJ^  engines  on  a  train.  With  the  smaller  poAvor  of  years  ago  of 
course  they  did  not  need  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Does  that  cover  your  eyes? 

Mr.  Jones :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Shea ;    Just  put  it  on  so  we  can  see  how  it  is. 

Mr.  Jones :     Over  both  eyes. 

Mr.  Stone :     You  are  blindfolded  going  through  there. 

Mr.  Jones :  You  could  not  see  anything  anyway,  on  account 
of  the  smoke  and  steam.  We  have  taken  the  temperature  on  the 
fourth  engine.    We  have  never  been  able  to  get  it  for  the  fifth. 

Mr.  Stone :  What  is  the  matter.  Does  the  thermometer 
break  on  the  fifth  engine? 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  sir.  It  registered  to  160  degrees  on  the 
fourth  engine  after  coming  out  of  the  tunnel  far  enough  so  that 
you  could  read  the  register,  get  the  register. 

Mr.  Nagel:     Doesn't  that  metal  get  hot? 

Mr.  Jones:  Yes,  sir.  Any  part  of  you  that  is  exposed,  if 
you  are  over  four  or  five  minutes  going  through  that  tunnel, 
wdll  blister. 

Mr.  Nagel :  Have  you  some  special  arrangement  for  fasten- 
ing that  in  there? 

Mr.  Jones :     It  screws  right  into  a  nipple. 

Mr.  Stone:  Connected  up  with  this  pipe  from  the  main 
reservoir  ? 

Mr.  Jones  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Stone :  That  main  reservoir,  whatever  comes  through 
there  after  a  while  lias  a  little  flavor  of  burnt  oil  and  quite  a 
good  deal  of  heat? 

Mr.  Jones:  Yes.  Of  course  that  compresses  the  air  out- 
side of  the  tunnel,  and  as  the  compressor  works  in  the  tunnel 
and  compresses  this  gas,  or  fumes,  or  smoke,  or  whatever  is  in 
there,  why,  it  is  forced  through  that  sponge,  Init  it  is  sort  of 
l)urified  in  passing  through  the  sponge. 

Mr.  Stone:  It  tastes  pretty  good  l)y  the  time  you  get 
through? 

Mr.  Jones:     It  helps  some. 


862 

Mr.  Stone :  Do  ]  iiiuleistand  you  to  say  tliat  the  record  of 
teiii]iQratnre  on  tlie  fourtli  engine  was  160  degrees? 

Mr.  Jones  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:     In  the  winter? 

Mr.  Jones:  That  is,  going  through  there  in  about  four 
Hiinutes.  If  you  were  six  or  seven  minutes  it  would  run  up 
probably  to  190  or  200,  soniewliere  up  in  there.  We  have  never 
been  able  to  take  it. 

Mr.  Stone:  Have  you  ever  been  overcome  with  heat  in 
this  tunnel,  or  smotliered  in  there? 

Mr.  Jones :     I  have.    1  died  once. 

Mr.  Stone:     You  were  dead  all  right,  were  you? 

Mr.  Jones :     I  was  dead. 

Mr.  Stone!     Explain  to  this  Board  what  happened? 

Ml'.  Jones:  Well,  we  were  on  a  five  engine  freight  train,  I 
was  the  fourth  engine  in  the  train — and  by  the  way,  it  was  Fri- 
day, we  had  thirteen  cars  behind  the  pusher,  and  we  were  going 
to  Siskiyou  for  train  thirteen.  It  all  goes  to  help  some.  So  we 
never  go  to  this  place  Siskiyou,  that  is  at  the  summit,  and  the 
switch  is  right  at  the  east  entrance  to  the  tunnel ;  tunnel  13 ;  the 
longest  tunnel  we  have,  3,120  feet  long.  It  is  a  rule,  not  only 
with  the  men,  but  the  company  don't  want  the  train  to  go  there 
to  take  the  siding,  but  the  siding  west  of  this  Siskiyou  is  about 
a  mile  and  a  half  from  the  tunnel,  and  in  leaving  this  station, 
White  Point,  there  is  a  station  between  White  Point  and  this 
tunnel,  and  Siskiyou,  where  we  were  to  meet  this  passenger 
train.  We  all  presumed,  or  thought,  we  had  ample  time  to  go  to 
Siskiyou  and  hold  the  main  track  against  this  train  13;  but  for 
some  reason  more  time  was  consumed  than  we  expected,  and 
the  head  engineer,  the  leading  man,  who  controlled  the  train, 
was  in  doubt  as  to  whether  he  would  have  time  to  go  down  the 
main  track  and  clear  this  passenger  train,  so  he  stopped  the  head 
end  to  take  the  siding.  The  two  head  engines  were  just  outside 
of  the  tunnel,  just  room  to  clear  the  track.  The  three  rear  en- 
gines were  in  the  tunnel.  Of  course,  w^hen  the  train  stopped  I 
realized  that  we  would  not  get  out,  and  my  fireman  was  noted 
for  having  plenty  to  say,  and  I  thought  when  he  went  out  it  was 
off,  that  he  was  gone.  I  could  not  hear  him  anyway,  and  then  I 
remembered  going  over,  there  was  a  work  train  there,  and  I 
thought  it  might  be  that  they  had  their  train  up  on  the  siding, 


863 

and  if  that  was  the  case,  of  course  we  could  not  get  into  the  sid- 
ing; they  could  not  get  out  of  the  way,  and  that  we  would  none  of 
us  get  out  of  there  alive,  so  I  got  off  of  my  engine  and  started 
ahead  to  the  third  engine,  thinking  that  I  could  cut  the  rear  end 
of  the  train  possibly  and  get  out  of  there,  get  the  train  out.  Of 
course,  I  put  my  coat  over  my  head — I  was  weai'ing  a  coat  and 
I  put  the  coat  over  my  head.  I  could  not  see  anything  but  I 
was  feeling  my  Avay  along,  and  J.  realized  that  it  would  be  im- 
possible to  get  to  the  third  engine,  so  I  decided  that  I  would  cut 
my  engine  and  let  the  fourth  or  fifth  engine  get  out  with  the 
rear  portion  of  the  train. 

AVhile  I  was  in  there  of  course  I  left  my  engine  in  forward 
motion  with  the  throttle  open,  in  case  they  started — of  course 
I  would  not  get  out,  but  the  rest  of  them  would  get  out,  whereas 
if  I  had  left  my  engine  shut  oft'  the  chances  were  that  they  could 
not  have  dragged  them  out,  they  would  have  broken  in  two. 
So  while  I  was  down  there  trying  to  cut  the  engine  off,  the  train 
started,  and  of  course  I  was  in  there  somewhere  between  the 
pilot  and  the  tank,  and  the  plate  on  the  pilot  of  the  engine  caught 
me  just  below  the  knee  and  I  fell  forward  alongside  of  the  tunnel 
about  I  should  judge  thirty  inches  or  thirty-six  inches,  maybe 
between  the  wall  of  the  tunnel  and  the  rail.  As  it  happened, 
I  fell  forward  lengthwise  of  the  track  with  my  face  in  this  ditch 
or  drain  along  the  side.  The  tunnel  is  more  or  less  damp,  so 
the  train  pulled  out,  and  after  getting  out  side  they  missed  me, 
and  they  came  back;  but  it  was  about  twenty  minutes  I  believe 
before  they  could  get  into  the  tunnel  with  fusees  and  find  me, 
lo.cate  me.  Of  course,  it  was  dark,  lots  of  smoke  in  there  and  I 
had  this  black  coat  over  my  head  anyhow,  but  they  finally  found 
where  I  was  lying  and  carried  me  outside  and  placed  me  in  some 
snow.  There  was  a  doctor  on  No.  13  and  he  came  up  and  told 
them  how  to  restore  life,  if  such  a  thing  was  possible,  but  I  was 
afterwards  taken  home  on  a  light  engine  and  remained  in  bed 
three  or  four  days  until  the  company's  physician  would  let  me 
go  to  work. 

That  is  not  the  only  case.  We  have  had  others  that  have 
been  taken  out  there,  but  not  quite  so  bad  as  my  case  was.  We 
had  one  engineer  killed  there,  a  number  of  years  ago,  in  the 
tunnel,  on  account  of  the  train  breaking  in  two. 

Mr.  Stone:     How  long  were  you  unconscious,  Mr.  Jones? 


864 

Mr,  Jones:  Well,  I  should  judge — of  course  I  did  not  re- 
gain consciousness,  until  I  arrived  home,  but  after  I  was  in 
bed  at  home,  I  remembered — I  had  a  faint  recollection  of  some 
things  that  occurred  from  the  time  that  I  got  off  of  my  engine 
and  the  time  I  got  home,  but  I  was  not  rational  at  all. 

Mr.  Stone:     Have  you  a  pliotograph  of  one  of  those  trains? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  is  a  small  reproduction  that  was  made 
from  a  postal  card  someone  sent  me. 

Mr.  Jones :     This  is  a  six  engine  train. 

Mr.  Stone:  Tliese  are  offered,  not  as  exhibits,  but  simply 
to  show  it  is  the  same  train? 

Mr.  Jones :  There  are  three  behind  and  three  ahead  there, 
all  22  by  28. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  handling  those  six  engine  trains,  Mr.  Jones, 
they  do  not  handle  all  the  engines  together,  do  they? 

Mr.  Jones:     No,  usually  put  three  aliead  and  three  behind. 

Mr.  Stone:     Three  in  the  middle  of  the  train? 

Mr.  Jones:  I  mean  three  in  the  middle,  about  two-thirds 
of  the  way  back. 

Mr.  Stone:  For  example,  if  you  had  a  train  of  sixty  cars 
you  would  probably  put  three  engines  ahead,  then  forty  cars, 
then 

Mr.  Jones:  That  train  is  made  up  of  fifty-four  cars,  three 
engines  ahead  and  then  thirteen  cars  behind  the  three  rear  en- 
gines. 

Mr.  Stone:  They  could  liave  made  two  trains  of  that  very 
easily,  couldn't  they? 

Mr.  Jones:  They  could  liave  made  three  trains,  two  en- 
gines on  a  train. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  would  require  more  conductors,  would  it 
not? 

Mr.  Jones:  We  are  handling  the  same  train  out  of  there 
today  with  five  engines  and  one  train  crew  that  we  handled  some 
years  ago  with  nine  engines  and  three  train  crews.  The  trains 
are  being  handled  very  economically. 

Mr.  Stone:  This  postal  card  of  this  passenger  train,  are 
these  Mikado  engines? 

Mr.  Jones :     No,  Consolidation,  22  by  30. 


865 

Mr.  Stone :  How  many  engines  do  they  use  on  a  passenger 
train  on  that  division  now? 

Mr.  Jones:  At  the  present  time  they  use  two  superheated 
Mikados.  with  twelve  ears,  where  they  did  use  three  22  by  30 
Consolidation. 

Mr.  Stone :  These  are  just  simply  reproductions  of  a  postal 
card  showing  you,  with  three  engines  on  a  passenger  train,  how 
they  handle  those. 

Mr.  Jones:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  by  the  handling  of  trains 
in  this  manner,  the  only  saving  to  the  company  is  the  fact  that 
it  saves  trainmen?  There  is  no  saving  to  the  company,  is  there, 
outside  of  thatf 

Mr.  Jones :  There  is  a  saving  in  other  ways.  It  will  reduce 
delay  to  opposing  trains  by  confining  those  trains  to  one  train, 
it  will  make  less  delay,  make  less  trains. 

Mr.  Stone :  It  is  quite  common  then,  in  the  winter  weather, 
to  jump  out  of  those  tunnels  at  160  degrees  and  jimip  right  into 
a  snow  bank,  is  it? 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes. 

Mr.  Stone:     Are  there  heavy  snows  in  the  mountains? 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  we  have  pretty  heavy  snow  up  there,  use 
rotaries  on  part  of  the  division  every  winter,  I  guess,  most  every 
winter,  run  sn,ow  plows  and  flanges. 

Mr.  Stone :  What  are  the  rules  of  the  Southern  Pacific 
in  regard  to  men  reporting  for  duty? 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  to  give  you  an  idea  of  how  we  are  ex- 
pected to  report  for  duty,  I  would  have  to  explain  just  what 
takes  place  from  the  time  we  are  called. 

Mr.  Stone:     All  right. 

Mr.  Jones:  After  being  called,  we  go  to  the  depot  and 
compare  our  time  with  tlie  standard  time,  register  our  name  on 
the  train  register  and  the  time  our  watcli  was  compared.  Then 
we  go  to  the  roundhouse  and  change  our  clothes  and  inspect  our 
engine,  see  that  all  supplies  and  tools  necessary  are  on  the 
engine,  all  signal  appliances,  or  signals  that  might  be  used  in 
the  protection  of  our  train ;  inspect  the  engine  and  see  that  it  is 
in  safe  condition  to  make  a  successful  trip.  Then  you  make  out 
a  report  blank  form  and  sign  it,  stating  that  you  found  the  in- 
jectors, lubricators,  fire  box,  and  in  fact  everything  connected 
,A\dth  the  engine,  in  ]oerfect  condition,  as  far  as  you  know. 


see 

Then,  register  at  the  roiindliouse,  take  the  engine  out  on  the 
table,  have  it  turned,  take  water,  oil  around,  put  tlie  engine  on 
the  train,  try  the  air,  test  the  brakes,  pump  up  the  brake  pipe 
and  auxiliary,  and,  by  that  time,  if  the  conductor  shows  up  with 
the  orders,  why,  we  pull  the  head  end  of  the  train  up  to  one 
end  of  the  yard  and  couple  iu  the  rear  end,  and  then  we  are 
ready  to  go. 

Mr.  Stone: .  I  wish  you  would  describe  for  the  Board,  if  you 
can,  without  being  too  long,  one  of  your  tiips  like  you  make, 
leaving  the  terminal,  after  you  are  ready  to  go. 

Mr.  Jones:     One  through  trip  on  this  division? 

Mr.  Stone:  I  think  so.  L  think  it  would  be  interesting  to 
them,  to  show  them  something  that  the  men  have  to  contend 
with. 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  we  will  leave  Ashland,  Oregon,  say  at 
(i:30  o'clock  this  morning,  and  we  are  called  and  go  through  this 
performance  that  I  have  just  explained. 

Mr.  Stone:  For  all  this  preparatory  time  do  you  get  any 
pay? 

Mr.  Jones:  Nothing  up  to  the  time  you  are  ordered  to 
leave.  If  I  am  called  for  6 :35  these  fifty  minutes  I  put  in  pre- 
paring myself  for  the  trip,  that  is,  from  the  time  T  register  at 
the  depot  until  I  leave  the  yard.  I  get  nothing  for  that,  but  you 
are  responsible  for  your  engine  up  to  the  time  you  leave  the 
yard,  just  the  same  as  if  you  were  drawing  pay. 

Now,  after  the  train  is  made  up  and  the  air  is  tested  by  the 
yard  man  from  the  road  engine,  we  pull  up  the  head  of  the 
train — that  consists  of  two  engines  and  probably  thirty-five 
cars — until  the  rear  end.  with  three  engines  and  probably  fif- 
teen or  twenty  cars,  can  pull  out  over  the  switch  and  couple 
in. 

Then  we  make  what  is  known,  for  the  protection  of  every- 
body and  ever>'thing  connected  with  the  movement  of  the  train, 
as  a  rear  end  plug  test.  That  is,  when  you  get  all  coupled  to- 
gether and  do  the  necessary-  whistling,  and  so  forth,  we  call  for 
what  we  call  the  "plug."  The  brakeman,  when  he  hears  that 
signal,  from  the  rear  end.  opens  the  plug  and  if  the  reduction 
is  made  from  the  gauge  in  the  lead  engine,  we  have  every  rea- 
son to  believe  that  the  air  goes  through  the  entire  length  of 
the  train  and  can  be  operated  from  the  leading  oncnTie. 


867 

Well,  we  start  out  and  it  is  about  seven  and  a  half  miles, 
I  believe — no,  it  is  ten  miles  to  Steinman.  We  will  use  probably 
an  hour  going  that  ten  miles.  Part  of  the  way  the  grade  is  light. 
We  would  make  fifteen  or  eighteen  miles  an  hour  for  probably 
four  and  a  half  miles.  The  rest  is  a  three  or  three  and  a  half  per 
cent  grade.  When  we  get  to  Steinman  we  tie  the.  train  up  with 
hand  brakes,  and  we  cut  the  two  rear  engines  from  the  rear  por- 
tion of  the  train  and  they  back  down  and  get  w^ater.  After  the 
train  is  secured,  the  two  head  or  leading  engines  are  cut  otf  and 
they  go  to  the  upper  tank  and  get  water.  After  they  get  water 
and  come  back  and  couple  on  the  train,  the  rear  end  backs  do^vn 
below  the  tank  and  the  third  engine  is  cut  off  and  they  back 
down  for  water. 

Mr.  Stone:  Explain  to  the  Board — does  it  bother  you  to  be 
interrupted  1 

Mr.  Jones:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Explain  to  the  Board  why  you  do  not  dare  to  let 
go  of  this  train? 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  it  is  a  recognized  fact  that  the  cars  used 
nowadays  .could  not  be  controlled  with  hand  brakes.  If  the  air 
would  leak  off  the  train  would  start;  the  grade  is  too  heavy  for 
the  cars.     I  do  not  believe  a  hand  brake  would  hold  the  cars. 

After  we  get  the  water  on  the  five  engines  we  get  eou]>led 
up  again  and  we  go  with  our  47  or  50  cars,  whatever  it  may  be, 
to  Siskiyou.  That  is  seven  and  a  half  miles  further  west.  Then, 
we  cut  out  the  engine  from  the  head  end  and  one  from  the  back 
end  of  the  train,  and  the  train  leaves  Siskiyou  down  a  three  per 
cent  grade  with  three  engines,  two  in  the  rear  and  one  on  the 
head  end.  When  you  arriA^e  at  Hornbrook,  at  the  foot  of  the 
grade,  nineteen  miles — 

Mr.  Stone :  Before  you  arrive  at  Hornbrook,  do  you  do  any- 
thing ! 

Mr.  Jones:  We  stop  for  inspection  along  at  different  places 
and  to  cool  the  wheels. 

Mr.  Stone :     How  long  do  you  stop  1 

Mr.  Jones:     Ten  minutes  at  a  place  called  Gregory. 

Mr.  Stone:     Down  that  nineteen  miles,  on  that  grade  of  3.3 
per  cent,  somebody  must  do  a  pretty  fancy  job  of  braking,  if 
he  gets  the  train  down  there. 
'        Mr.  Jones:     If  you  neglect  your  brakes  for  a  minute — I 


868 

believe  it  }ias  been  estimated  that  a  traiu  goiu^  twelve  miles  an 
hour,  down  a  three  per  cent  grade,  without  brakes,  will  ^o  forty 
miles  an  hour  in  a  minute,  and  with  these  ten  to  fourteen  deo^ree 
curves,  1  don't  believe  the  train  will  stay  on  the  track. 

Mr,  Stone:  It  is  necessary  to  iclease  iii  order  to  recharge 
your  train  line? 

Mr.  Jones:  Yes,  out  of  the  nineteen  miles  there  is  a  flat 
of  tiiree  miles  and  a  half,  and  the  applications  of  the  brake  will 
run  anywhere  from  70  to  110  times.  That  is,  you  are  applying 
and  releasing  the  brakes  from  70  to  110  times  within  an  hour 
and  twenty  oi-  twenty-five  minutes.  It  is  just  applying  them 
thirty-eiglit  i)er  cent  of  the  time  and  releasing  them  about 
sixty-two  per  cent  or  whatever  it  would  figure  out. 

Well,  now,  where  did  we  get  to,  Hornbrook? 

]Mr.  Stone:     We  are  still  going  down  the  grade. 

Mr.  Jones:  When  we  arrive  at  Hornbrook  we  cut  the  en- 
gines out,  go  out  and  get  oil  and  water,  and  there  will  probably 
be  a  message  there  to  take  uj)  what  cars  are  at  Hornbrook, 
which  mav  be  five  or  mav  be  ten,  and  von  will  leave  there  and 
go  through  tlie  same  procedure  that  you  do  to  get  out  of  any 
terminal,  by  making  tests,  and  so  forth,  and  then  you  go  over 
to  Snowden,  and  then  you  will  probably  cut  one  engine  out  there, 
and  you  will  get  a  message  to  take  M'hat  cars  are  at  Montague, 
that  is  a  station  east  of  Snowden,  and  pick  up  probably  two 
or  three  helpers  at  Edgewood,  and  one  brakeman,  and  take 
what  cars  are  at  Edge^vood,  wdiicb  would  probably  fill  yonr  train 
out  to  65  or  68  cars,  and  then  over  to  Blue  Butte  Sunmnit,  an- 
other point  on  the  division,  and  you  would  get  an  order  to  cut 
out  possibly  three  engines,  and  simply  run  them  light  to  Duns- 
muir,  leaving  two  engines  with  the  68  cars,  with  an  order  to  fill 
out  to  71  cars  at  Sisson,  that  is  68  miles  east  of  Dunsmuir,  and 
with  the  two  engines  and  71  cars  and  four  brakemen,  you  would 
go  into  Dunsmuir.  In  that  time  you  would  probably  have  con- 
sumed from  eleven  to  thirteen  or  fourteen  hours. 

Mr.  Stone:     What  is  the  mileage? 

Mr.  Jones:     107  miles. 

Mr.  Stone:  What  is  the  responsibility  of  the  engineer  on 
a  train  like  this,  in  approaching  yard  limits? 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  it  is  a  pretty  great  responsibility,  very 
great.    Now.  taking  it  on  a  grade  where  Rule  98  applies,  where 


869 

stations  are  ]>iotected — all  trains  between  switch  and  yard  limit 
boards,  protected  under  Rule  93, — it  would  be  impossible  to 
control  that  train  and  observe  that  rule,  in  certain  kinds  of 
weather.  In  t'o,i»gY  weather  you  realize  that  with  a  train  mov- 
ing at  twelve  miles  an  hour,  when  the  brakes  were  released,  it 
would  require  some  IM)  or  -tO  seconds,  after  making  a  ten  pound 
application  of  brakes,  to  restore  the  air  in  the  brake  pipe,  and 
have  the  pressure  in  the  brake  pipe  and  auxiliaries  so  the  pres- 
sure would  be  in  condition  to  make  another  application  of  the 
brakes.  While  moving  at  four  miles  an  hour  or  if  a  train  was 
moving  at  two  miles  an  hour,  in  foggy  weather,  where  it  is  im- 
possible to  see  over  a  car  length  ahead  of  you,  you  could  not 
possibly  manipulate  that  air  brake  and  control  that  train  and 
avoid  the  responsibility  of  a  collision  under  those  conditions — 
it  could  not  be  done,  because  you  could  not  stop  that  train  in 
the  car  length  you  would  have  to  stop  it  in. 

Mr.  Stone :  In  other  words,  after  that  brake  line  has  been 
run  down  by  a  ten  pound  reduction  and  released,  you  cannot 
again  apply  the  brakes  until  you  have  allowed  perhaps  thirty 
seconds  to  pass  to  recharge! 

Mr.  Jones:  No,  it  is  not  the  pressure  in  the  brake  pipe 
that  sets  the  brake,  it  is  the  pressure  in  the  auxiliary  reservoir, 
and  you  must  make  a  reduction  in  the  brake  pipe  below  the 
auxiliary  pressure  before  you  can  open  up  the  connection  be- 
tween the  auxiliary  and  the  brake  cylinder,  and  that  requires 
time. 

Mr.  Stone :     Are  all  these  engines  in  the  mountain  service 
oil  burners,  at  the  present  time? 
Mr.  Jones :     They  are,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Do  you  find  it  is  as  bad  going  through  the 
tunnels  with  the  oil  as  with  the  coal? 

Mr.  Jones :  Well,  I  think  it  is  worse  than  it  was  with  the 
coal. 

Mr.  Stone:     Why? 

Mr.  Jones :  Ws'll,  the  gas  that  is  thrown  off  from  the  oil  af 
fects  the  men,  I  believe,  more  than  the  coal  did.  Now,  in  going 
through  these  tunnels  you  are  unable  to  see  anything,  you  can- 
not see  anything  from  the  time  you  enter  those  tunnels  until 
you  are  outside.  These  firing  valves  that  the  firemen  operate 
in  a  desire  to  keep  this  smoke  down  as  much  as  possible,  so  as 


870 

to  make  it  possible  to  go  tlirough  there,  there  are  times  when 
one  of  these  men  on  one  of  these  five  engines  will  cut  the  fire 
down  too  low,  and,  when  you  do,  of  course,  that  gas  is  something 
terrible,  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Stone:  Have  you  noticed  any  difference,  Mr.  Jones, 
in  the  cost  of  living  between,  say,  1909  and  1910,  and  now — liave 
you  notic(»d  any  difference  in  the  cost  of  living  in  tliat  ])eriod? 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  there  is  a  difference  in  the  cost  of  living, 
from  a  railroad  man's  standi)oint.  At  places  where  a  few  years 
ago.  two  or  three  years  ago  we  were  served  with  25  cent  meals, 
I  notice  now  that  generally  the  things  we  order,  ham  and  eggs 
and  bacon  and  eggs  and  things  like  that,  that  we  used  to  get  for 
25  cents,  we  now  pay  35  cents  for.  The  meal  we  formerly  got 
for  25  cents,  what  was  called  a  regular  dinner,  is  still  advertised 
as  a  25  cent  meal,  but  where  we  used  to  get  a  plate  of  soup  and 
a  dessert,  we  now  get  the  soup  for  five  cents  extra  and  the 
dessert  for  five  cents  extra,  making  a  meal  cost  35  or  40  cents, 
which  means  from  nine  to  twelve  or  fifteen  dollars  a  mouth  extra 
— it  is  not  much  for  a  meal,  but  at  the  end  of  the  month,  where 
you  eat  three  meals  a  day,  it  amounts  to  considerable. 

And  I  might  speak  of  the  beds,  too.  The  beds  that  are 
furnished  at  the  Weed  Hotel  in  Dunsmuir — that  is  about  the 
only  place  where  you  can  get  a  room,  the  25  cent  bed,  no  man 
that  has  any  respect  for  his  person  at  all  would  sleep  in  those 
rooms,  for  there  is  absolutely  no  ventilation  wliatever ;  and  the 
room  that  you  can  get  for  fifty  cents,  that  we  used  to  pay  25 
cents  for,  is  usually  in  a  court,  over  a  Chinese  kitchen,  and  there 
are  certain  times  of  the  year  when  it  is  impossible  to  stay  there 
imless  you  use  one  of  these  respirators. 

Mr.  Burgess:  May  I  ask  to  what  place  you  would  attach 
this  pipe  under  those  circumstances? 

Mr.  Jones :  You  would  have  to  arrange  some  kind  of  con- 
nection from  the  roundhouse  over  there. 

Mr.  Stone :     I  think  that  is  all. 

CROSS  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Sheean:  "^Vhen  was  it.  Mr.  Jones,  that  this  accident 
or  injury  was  sustained  by  you? 

Mr.  Jones:  I  think  it  was  the  24th  of  February,  1913. 
Now,  I  won't  be  sure  as  to  that,  but  it  was  either  1912  or  1913, 


871 

the  24th  of  February.  Wait  a  minte,  I  think  I  have  it  here. 
(After  examining  paper).  February  20th,  1913,  along  in  there 
somewhere.  .     ..,. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  the  respirators  that  you  have  described 
here  have  ])een  in  use  out  on  tliat  division  since  long  prior  to 
1910,  haven't  they? 

Mr.  Jones:  Yes,  I  think  it  was  in  1909  when  they  were 
introduced  there.  We  used,  prior  to  that  time,  when  the  trains 
weren't  so  heavy, — we  used  to  go  through  by  wetting  a  sack  or 
a  coat  or  carrying  a  sponge,  and,  by  going  through  with  a  train 
of  lighter  tonnage,  we  would  get  through  more  quickly. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  these  respirators  were  furnished  by  the 
company  back  in  1909? 

Mr.   Stone:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And,  after  the  accident  to  you,  their  use  was 
made  compulsory,  wasn't  it, — an  order  was  issued? 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  an  order  was  issued.  I  will  tell  you  why 
some  men  objected  to  using  these,  and  once  in  a  while  you  will 
get  a  man  out.  It  was  rumored,  and,  it  was  the  opinion  of  a 
great  many,  that  the  fumes  pumped  into  this  main  reservoir  and 
forced  in  through  this  small  pipe — of  course,  you  understand, 
there  is  a  circulation  there  and  when  you  get  130  pounds  pres- 
sure there  with  that  small  pipe  up  to  your  face,  it  was  the 
opinion  of  some  that  eventually  those  fumes  would  affect  your 
lungs. 

Mr.  Sheean:  At  the  time  you  exercised  your  seniority, 
your  seniority  rights,  and  selected  the  helper  work  through 
these  tunnels,  these  large  engines  and  these  respirators  were 
already  in  use  on  that  division? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And,  at  the  present  time  it  is  a  fact,  isn't  it, 
that  there  is  under  construction,  and  many  millions  of  dollars 
have  been  expended  on  both  sides  of  this  long  tunnel  in  the 
construction  of  a  new  track  that  Avill  eliminate  this  very  tunnel 
that  you  are  talking  about? 

Mr.  Jones :     I  don't  understand  it  that  way. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  do  know,  do  you  not,  Mr.  Jones,  that 
there  has  been  constructed  from  Edgewood,  out  as  far  as  Ridge 
City,  about  forty-five  miles  of  railroad? 

Mr.  Jones:    No. 


872 

Mr.  Sheeaii :     Out  of  Eugene,  I  should  have  said. 

Mr.  Jones :  1  understand  that  there  is  a  road  being  con- 
structed out  that  way. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  there  has  actuidly  been  constructed  ? 

Mr.  Jones :     I  liave  not  been  up  there. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  from  Weed  out  as  far  as  Williamson's 
River,  160  miles  have  actually  been  built  in  that  direction? 

Mr.  Jones  :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  that,  when  the  gap  between  those  two 
points  is  filled,  this  particular  part  of  the  Southern  Pacific, 
where  this  tunnel  that  you  have  been  describing  is  located,  the 
trains  will  i-un  around  by  this  new  line! 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  now,  I  understand — I  don't  know  what 
the  plans  of  the  company  are,  of  course — I  am  not  in  a  position 
to  know — I  understand  that  road  will  not  be  from  Klamath 
Falls  on  out  and  connecting  at  Eugene.  It  may  be,  but  I  do  not 
understand  it  that  way. 

Mr.  Slieean :  You  do  know  that  there  has  been  built  in  one 
direction  about  160  miles  and  in  the  other  about  45  miles'? 

Mr.  Jones :  As  to  the  road  to  Klamath  Falls  I  know  that 
to  be  a  fact,  I  have  been  over  it  as  far  as  Klamath  Falls.  The 
other  way  I  don't  know  about. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  part  you  have  been  over  is  about  160 
miles  ? 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes,  it  is  86  miles  from  Weed  and — 

Mr.  Sheean:  Then,  from  Eugene,  you  know  a  road  has 
been  built  in  a  general  direction  that  would  meet  this  other? 

Mr.  Jones:  No,  I  don't  know  that,  because  I  haven't  been 
there. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  don't  know  just  how  far  it  extends,  but 
you  do  know  that  some  sort  of  railroad  is  being  built  in  that 
direction  ? 

Mr.  Jones :  No,  I  don't  know"  that  it  has  been  built,  because 
I  have  not  been  there  and  I  could  not  say  as  to  that. 

Mr.  Sheean :  This  tunnel  that  you  have  described  here, 
and  its  conditions  and  all,  is  on  this  3.3  per  cent  grade,  which 
is  between  Eugene  and  Weed? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  So  that,  if,  in  fact,  a  new  railroad  or  a  rail- 
road is  under  construction  from  Weed,  at  the  one  end,  and 


873 

from  Eugene,  at  the  other,  and  if  that  does  connect,  it  will  oper- 
ate between  the  same  points  where  this  tunnel  which  you  have 
described  is  now  located? 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  but  I  doubt  if  that  would  relieve  the  con- 
ditions. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Well,  it  would  if  they  abandoned  that  tunnel? 

Mr.  Jones :     It  would,  if  they  did  abandon  it — if  they  did. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Now,  the  tunnel  was  there  and  the  conditions 
were  there  in  1909,  practically  the  conditions  that  you  have 
described  now,  except  in  the  increase  in  size  and  weight  on 
drivers — size  of  the  engine? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  How  long  have  you  been  an  engineer,  Mr. 
Jones? 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  I  have  been  an  engineer  eighteen  years, 
but  only  for  the  Southern  Pacific  thirteen  years,  a  little  over 
thirteen  years,  about  thirteen  years  and  three  months. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  have  been  an  engineer  all  told  eighteen 
years? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     How  old  are  you  now,  Mr.  Jones? 

Mr.  Jones :     Forty. 

Mr.  Sheean :     So  you  became  an  engineer  at  twenty-two  ? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  have  been  running  a  road  engine  for 
about  how  long? 

Mr.  Jones:  For  the  full  time,  eighteen  years — well,  I  was 
on  a  switch  engine  possibly  six  months  after  I  was  promoted.  I 
doubt  if  it  was  that  long, 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  have  been  thirteen  years  on  tlie  Southern 
Pacific? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     Your  seniority  rights  cover  what  territory  ? 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  now  only  between  Dunsmuir  and  Ash- 
land, and  as  far  north  as  this  new  road  you  speak  of,  to  Kla- 
math Falls. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  far  nortli  as  they  haye  completed  that 
branch  ? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  do  vou  call  it? 


874 

Mr.  Jones:     Klamath  Falls. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  have  seniority  righs  that  may  be  exer- 
cised over  that  branch  as  far  as  it  is  built,  pr  whenever  it  is 
operated,  in  case  you  elect  to  take  them? 

Mr.  Jones:  As  long  as  it  remains  under  the  supervision  of 
our  present  superintendent,  I  would  have. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  say  now  that  your  seniority  riglits  are 
limited  to  that  particular  territory? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  other  territory  did  they  ever  cover? 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  we  used  to  hold  rights  from  Sparks,  Ne- 
vada, to  Ashland,  Oregon.  That  took  in  the  Sacramento  Divi- 
sion and  the  Shasta  Division,  what  is  now  split — made  into  two 
divisions. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  when  did  you  elect  as  to  the  particular 
part  of  the  system  on  which  you  would  retain  your  seniority 
rights? 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  when  I  first  went  to  work  for  the  South- 
ern  Pacific  at  Sacramento,  I  was  on  the  extra  list  and  of  course 
I  ran  over  the  Sierra  Nevadas,  through  the  snow  sheds,  from 
Sacramento  to  Truckee,  and  over  in  that  country.  At  that  time 
all  engines  were  overhauled  on  the  Sacramento  Division  and 
delivered  to  different  parts  of  the  system,  and  it  was  pretty 
hard  to  get  a  man  who  would  start  out  of  Sacramento  and  prob- 
ably go  a  thousand  miles,  over  a  ]3ioce  of  road  he  had  never  been 
over,  with  a  new  engine ;  so  I  did  that  work  for  possibly  a  year, 
and  it  kept  me  away  from  home — I  would  go  on  a  trip  and  prob- 
ably be  gone  ten  days  or  two  weeks — so  I  took  the  run  over  in 
the  sheds,  on  the  east  end,  between  Sparks,  Nevada,  and  a  place 
called  Blue  Canyon.  I  remained  there  until  there  was  an  op- 
portunity to  take  a  run  on  this  north  end  of  the  Shasta  Divi- 
sion; I  exercised  my  rights  and  bid  in  this  run,  and  the  division 
was  changed  a  few  days  after  I  bid  in  the  run,  and  of  course  I 
was  shut  off  the  Sacramento  Division. 

Mr.  Sheean:     When  was  that? 

Mr.  Jones :     About  1907. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  you  have  been  on  this  Shasta  Division 
as  you  call  it,  since  1907? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes,  sir. 


875 

Mr.  Sheean:  About  what  territory  does  that  cover,  be- 
tween what  points? 

Mr.  Jones :  From  Red  Bluff,  California,  to  Ashland,  Ore- 
gon, 206  miles  of  main  track. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  over  that  206  miles  you  may  exercise 
your  seniority  rights,  on  any  part  of  it? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  you  have  exercised  them  by  selecting  this 
run  on  these  107  miles,  where  these  tunnels  are  located? 

Mr.  Jones:  Yes,  sir,  there  are  tunnels  on  the  other  divi- 
sion, too — on  all  divisions — not  this  particular  railroad ;  but  the 
same  conditons,  I  understand,  exist  in  almost  all  mountain  dis- 
tricts. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Have  you  run  over  the  other  part  of  the  di- 
vision at  any  time,  in  the  exercise  of  your  seniority  rights? 

Mr.  Jones :  I  could  not.  I  never  bid  a  run  in  on  the  other 
part  of  the  division. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Is  there  any  tunnel  on  a  3.3  per  cent  grade 
on  thi«  system  except  the  one  you  have  described  here? 

Mr.  Jones :     Oh,  yes,  there  are  four. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Having  the  same  grade? 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  on  this  seventeen  miles  from  Siskiyou  to 
Ashland. 

Mr.  Sheean :     How  long  would  they  be? 

Mr.  Jones :  They  would  run  from  300  to  3100  feet.  That 
is  about  the  average. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  thirtv-one  hundred  is  the  one  vou  have 
described  here. 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes,  that  is  the  longest  tunnel. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  the  longest  tunnel  ? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  the  next  longest  one? 

Mr.  Jones :  Well,  I  don't  know,  I  think  tunnel  14.  Maybe  I 
have  it  here  somewhere.    Yes ;  tunnel  14  is  1119  feet. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  the  next  one,  closest  to  it? 

Mr.  Jones :     The  next  longest  one  is  411  feet. 

Mr.  Sheean:     411  feet? 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes.     The  next  is  354. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  then  from  there  on  down? 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes,  then  the  next  was  258. 


876 

Mr.  Sheean:     Mr.  Jones,  where  is  tunnel  15? 

Mr.  Jones:  Tunnel  15  is  below  Steinman;  that  is  a  short 
tunnel,  but  it  is  hotter  than — 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  the  length  of  that? 

Mr.  Jones :  258  feet.  That  is,  it  measures  that,  but,  if  you 
go  through  there  on  a  third  or  fifth  engine,  it  is  about  seventeen 
hundred  and  fifty-eight. 

Mr.  Sheean:     AVliat  is  the  grade  there? 

Mr.  Jones :  It  is  a  very  slight  ladder.  It  is  3  per  cent, 
anyhow,  through  this  tunnel. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  have  described  the  trip  going  one  way, 
and  not  on  your  helper  trip,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  did  you  do  coming  back? 

Mr.  Jones:  You  have  practically  the  same  thing,  but  it  is 
going  east  where  you  assume  the  hazard  passing  through  this 
long  tunnel.  It  is  up  grade  going  east  on  your  return  trip. 
That  is  the  long  tunnel. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  takes  you  about  the  same  lengili  of  time 
on  the  return  trip? 

Mr.  Jones :     About  the  same,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  make  the  run  in  one  direction  in  one 
day,  and  the  return  trip  the  next  day  ordinarily? 

Mr.  Jones :  Ordinarily,  that  is  when  business  is  good  they 
generally  go  over  the  road  and  make  probably  twent^'-seven 
days  out  of  thirty. 

Mr.  Sheean :  What  became  of  your  helper  engines  you  say 
were  ordered  to  be  cut  off  at  a  certain  point  on  this  trip? 

Mr.  Jones :  Well,  helper  engines  out  of  Ashland  will  go 
on  to  Siskiyou,  or  possibly  return  to  Ashland  to  help  other  trains 
in  the  ten  hours.  We  might  make  two  trips,  we  might  make 
three  trips,  we  might  make  four. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  are  describing  the  case  of  one  engine 
which  runs  all  the  way  through  from  one  end  to  the  other? 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Is  your  assignment  on  the  helper  or  on  the 
one  that  goes  all  the  way  through! 

Mr.  Jones:  My  assignment  is  on  the  helper,  but  previous 
to  this  time  I  was  running  through  on  this  through  freight,  both 
in  the  through  freight  service  and  passenger  service,  as  late  as 


877 
a  mouth  ago.    That  is,  1  eliaiige  off  with  the  through  nieu  there. 

I  am  Local  Chairman  there,  and  when  the  men  tell  me  that 
conditions  are  so  and  so — well,  you  understand,  our  organization 
tells  us  to  do  as  we  are  instructed.  It  don 't  make  any  difference 
what  the  hazard  or  what  the  responsibility  is,  they  will  tell  j6u 
to  do  as  you  are  instructed,  and  they  Avill  try  and  fix  conditioiis 
up  so  that  it  will  be  possible  to  obey  these  instructions.  Now, 
the  men  will  tell  me  that  the  conditions  are  so  and  so.  That  it  is 
impossible  to  handle  these  seventy-one  car  trains,  and  so  forth 
and  so  on. 

Well,  as  Local  Chairman,  and  looking  out  for  the  interests 
of  the  Engineers,  and  for  their  protection,  and  to  fit  myself  so 
I  can  go  before  an  official  and  explain  as  to  any  irregularity  on 
the  part  of  the  men,  there,  I  change  off  and  go  over  the  district 
and  handle  these  trains  myself,  so  that  I  am  in  a  position  when 
I  get  before  this  official,  so  that  he  cannot  say  to  me, /'What  do 
you  know  about  this?  You  have  not  been  on  a  through  train 
in  a  year." 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  I  want  to  get  at,  Mr.  Jones,  is  this, 
your  description  here  was  the  coming  back  of  the  through  train 
all  the  way  through,  and  not  the  description  of  the  helper. 

Mr.  Jones :     No,  that  is  the  through  run. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  understood  Mr.  Stone  to  say  at  the  time 
you  came  upon  the  stand,  that  you  were  in  the  helper  service. 

Mr.  Jones :  I  am  in  all  services.  I  make  it  my  business  to 
be. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  understand  that,  Mr.  Jones,  but,  what  I 
want  to  make  clear  here  is  that  what  you  have  described  is  the 
trip  of  a  man  who  was  in  the  through  freight  from  one  terminal 
to  the  other. 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Will  you  please  tell  us  just  what  the  work 
of  the  helper  would  be,  where  on  that  run  the  helper's  work  is, 
and  where  the  helper  engine  is,  and  where  the  helper  engine  is 
released  from  the  train,  and  what  it  does. 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  there  are  two  helper  engines,  what. we 
call  the  Ashland  helpers,  on  that  Avestbound  train  out  of  Ashland. 
One  will  be  the  first  engine  out,  and  he  will  handle  the  train  to 
the  summit,  seventeen  miles.  The  second  Ashland  helper  will 
be  placed  third  in  the  train,  or  first  out  ahead  of  the  rear  engines. 


878 

AVlien  you  get  to  Siskiyou  you  cut  out  tliat  head  engine,  and 
he  will  probably  go  back  to  Ashland  to  help  another  train.  The 
second  Ashland  helper  will  probably  go  out  and  help  this  train 
to  Hornbrook,  nineteen  miles  at  the  foot  of  the  grade,  west,  and 
return  on  some  other  train  to  Ashland. 

Mr.  Sheean :    And  will  be  held  there  until  it  meets — 

Mr.  Jones:  Will  be  held  there  until  a  train  arrives,  or 
until  there  is  a  call  for  it. 

Mr.  Sheean :    With  which  it  is  to  return? 

Mr.  Jones:  Yes.  To  give  you  an  idea  about  how  a  man 
works  on  that  run,  if  he  was  called  to  leave  Ashland  at  6:35 
this  morning,  to  help  a  westbound  freight,  he  would  arrive  at 
Hornbrook  about  11  o'clock,  that  is  thirty-six  miles  from  Ash- 
.land.  He  would  be  held  there  until  1 :50  P.  M.,  and  would  return 
on  a  passenger  train  back  to  Ashland,  and  put  up  at  his  terminal 
unless  he  was  needed  for  further  service  that  day. 

Mr.  Sheean :  About  what  time,  leaving  there  at  1 :50  mth 
this  passenger  train,  would  he  get  back  to  this  terminal? 

Mr.  Jones :    At  4 :30,  and  he  would  be  relieved  at  4 :40. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Relieved  at  4:40? 

Mr.  Jones:  Yes,  about  4:40.  They  make  a  quick  relief 
when  you  get  in.  There  is  no  delay  when  you  get  in ;  they  get 
you  to  the  roundhouse  as  quick  as  possible.  You  consume  about 
ten  minutes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  The  district  just  west  of  Dunsmuir,  over 
which  you  have  seniority  rights,  is  practically  a  level  district,  is 
it  not? 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  sir,  I  think  the  greater  part  of  it  is  almost 
level. 

Mr.  Sheean:    You  have  seniority  rights  over  all  of  that? 

Mr.  Jones :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean : .  The  maximum  grade  on  that  is  one  per  cent, 
isn't  it? 

Mr.  Jones :  A  little  over  one  per  cent ;  the  grade  isn  't  bad 
at  all.    Two  engines  handle  fifty  or  sixtj^  cars. 

Mr.  Sheean:  There  are  none  of  the  tunnels  you  describe, 
there? 

Mr.  tjones:  ,.;Thei"e  are  tunnels  down  there,  yes,  several  tun- 
Dels. 


879 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  of  the  same  kind  and  character  as  the 
ones  you  described  here? 

Mr.  Jones:  No.  You  go  through  them  and  make  better 
time,  of  course. 

Mr.  Sheean:    How  long  are  they  over  there? 

Mr.  Jones:  They  run  about  like  the  others,  all  the  way 
from  two  hundred  to  maybe  eight  hundred  feet,  something  of 
that  kind.  They  are  shorter,  of  course ;  there  are  none  of  them 
thirty-one  hundred  feet  long. 

Mr.  Sheean:  No,  there  are  none  of  them  a  thousand  feet 
long? 

Mr.  Jones.     No. 

Mr.  Sheean:  You  could,  at  the  present  time,  if  you  pre- 
ferred, take  a  run  on  the  west  part  of  this  division,  could  you? 

Mr.  Jones:    No,  I  wish  I  could. 

Mr.  Sheean:    You  are  not  in  a  position  to  bid  on  that? 

Mr.  Jones:    No,  I  haven't  been  there  long  enough. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Now,  Mr.  Jones,  how  many  engineers  are  there 
on  the  west  part  of  this  division,  now  holding  positions  there? 

Mr.  Jones:     Well,  in  freight  there  are  seven. 

Mr.  Sheean:     And  in  passenger? 

Mr.  Jones:  In  passenger,  let's  see;  I  think  eight.  Let's 
see,  there  are  the  three  through  runs  and  the  local  or  way  freight 
that  would  make  eight  passenger  engineers,  and  eight  freight 
engineers,  and  two  engineers  ordinarily  on  the  local  service,  way 
freight — No,  there  are  three ;  two  between  Dunsmuir  and  Read- 
ing and  one  between  Eeading  and  Red  Bluff. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Making  how  many  engineers  all  told  on  that, 
division? 

Mr.  Jones:    Eighteen  men. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Eighteen  altogether? 

Mr.  Jones:    Yes,  on  that  west  end. 

Mr.  Sheean:     On  the  west  end? 

Mr.  Jones:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  That  includes  all  who  are  working  on  that 
end? 

Mr.  Jones:    I  think  so,  all  on  that  end. 
as  ,      Mr.  Sheean:    It  includes  the  total  number  of  men  assigned 
there?  ;  {:!:i.i  '^-nhUai 

Mr.  Jones :     I  think  so,  'yes,  sir.  ;  'f:';  -i  M* 


880 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  is  your  understanding  that  you  have  no 
right  at  the  present  time  to  bid  in  any  run  on  that  part  of  the 
division? 

Mr.  Jones:  I  don't  think  there  is  a  run  on  that  part  of 
the  division  that  I  could  hold,  except  the  run  between  Reading 
and  Red  Bluff,  and  that  is  a  night  run,  and  I  would  not  want 
to  accept  a  run  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Sheean:     A  night  run  of  how  long? 

Mr.  Jones:  It  is  the  night  run  and  it  pays  very  little 
money.  You  leave  Reading,  we  will  say  about — well,  say  11 
o'clock.  I  don't  know  just  what  the  hours  are,  but  you  leave 
there  about  11  o'clock  in  the  evening  and  go  to  Red  Bluff  and 
get  in  there  about  3  o  'clock  in  the  morning.  You  are  four  hours 
going  down.  For  that  four  hours  you  get  fifty  miles.  Now, 
they  will  hold  you  there  from  3  o'clock  in  the  morning  until  7 
o'clock,  expecting  to  get  out  every  minute,  and  that  time  is  de- 
ducted, you  don't  get  anything  for  that.  But,  you  leave  there 
at  7  o'clock  and  get  back  at  11,  and  you  have  made  eight  hours, 
been  on  duty  twelve  hours,  and  you  get  $5.57  for  the  time.  So 
I  don't  want  a  job  like  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Your  pay  on  that  run  would  pay  you  five 
dollars  and  what? 

Mr.  Jones:     Fifty-seven  cents. 

Mr.  Sheean:     A  day? 

Mr.  Jones:     A  day. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  runs  every  day,  does  it? 

Mr.  Jones:     Every  day. 

Mr.  Sheean:     That  doesn't  appeal  to  you? 

Mr.  Jones :  And  that  is  night  work,  and  practically  no 
rest. 

Mr.  Sheean :  I  thought  you  said  there  were  three  hours, 
or  four  hours,  or  five  hours,  in  between? 

Mr.  Jones :     In  between  intermediate  trips,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  the  total  time  you  were  running  was 
how  much? 

Mr.  Jones :  Well,  say  eight  hours,  and  you  would  be  gone 
twelve  hours  from  the  time  you  left  home.  That  is,  you  would 
be  on  duty  about  thirteen  hours,  including  preparatory  time,  in 
making  this  $5.57. 

Mr.  Sheean :     How  long  would  you  be  running? 


881 

Mr.  Jones:     In  actual  movement,  or  road  service? 

Mr.  Sheean:    Yes. 

Mr.  Jones:     Eight  hours. 

Mr.  Sheean:    A  distance  of  what? 

Mr.  Jones:  A  distance  of —  Well,  I  will  have  to  figure 
how  far  that  is. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Approximately,  I  mean. 

Mr.  Jones :     It  is  about  eighty  miles  for  the  round  trip. 

Mr.  Sheean:     What  is  it? 

Mr.  Jones :     About  forty  miles  each  way. 

Mr.  Sheean:     About  forty  miles  each  way? 

Mr.  Jones:  Yes,  about  forty  miles  each  way,  that  makes 
eighty  for  the  round  trip. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Wliat  length  of  time  does  it  take  you  to  run 
that  forty  miles? 

Mr.  Jones :  No,  hold  on ;  it  is  thirty-six  miles.  That  would 
be  seventy-two  miles. 

Mr.  Sheean :  How  long  is  that  run,  or  how  long  does  it  take 
you  to  run  that  thirty-six  miles? 

Mr.  Jones:  Oh,  you  would  probably  be  four  hours  going 
up  there,  thirty-six  miles. 

Mr.  Park:  Haven't  you  the  schedule  there?  That  shows 
it  exactly. 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  I  think  we  have  the  schedule.  They  leave 
Reading  at  6 :26,  and  arrive  at  Red  Bluff  at  9  P.  M.,  two  hours 
and  forty  minutes.  You  understand  that  is  the  way  freight, 
and  it  depends  altogether  on  how  much  work  they  have,  but  it 
is  safe  to  say  they  never  make  that  schedule. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Going  up,  what  is  the  time?  You  said  you 
left  at  1  o'clock. 

Mr.  Jones:  This  is  the  time  table,  and  they  never  run  on 
time,  they  are  never  on  time,  that  is  the  way  freight;  but  they 
are  scheduled  to  leave  Reading  at  6:26  P.  M.,  and  scheduled 
to  arrive  at  Red  Bluff  at  9  P.  M.  But,  they  don't  make  it. 
That  is  the  schedule,  but  they  won't  be  on  time  once  in  a  year. 
•"  '  Mr.  Sheean:  AVhat  is  the  time  of  the  run  in  the  other  di- 
rection ? 

Mr.  Jones:  Leave  9:30  P.  M.,  and  arrive  at  Reading  at 
11 :45  P.  M. 


882 

Mr.  Slieean :  AVhat  does  this  through  freight  run  that  you 
have  described  here  ordinarily  pay,  from  month  to  month? 

Mr.  Jones:  AVell,  tlie  way  business  is  now,  I  think  those 
men  on  this  run,  the  way  business  has  been  the  last  three 
months,  have  averaged  probably — well,  they  are  permitted  to 
make  under  our  arrangement,  $179.10. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Well,  "Under  our  arrangement,"  just  what 
do  you  mean  by  that? 

Mr.  Jones :  Well,  we  try  to  tide  these  men  over  through 
the  dull  season  by  dividing  the  work  up  among  our  men,  so  that 
they  can  all  work. 

Mr.  Park :     That  is,  you  limit  them  to  $179.10? 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes,  we  limit  the  work  to  $179.10. 

Mr.  Sheean:  How  long  has  that  limitation,  limiting  them 
to  $179.10  been  in  vogue  there? 

Mr.  Jones :    About  a  year. 

Mr.  Sheean:    About  a  year? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  About  how  long  after  the  claims  were  pre- 
sented, or  this  schedule  was  presented,  was  it  that  the  organiza- 
tion limited  the  earnings  of  the  men  on  that  run  to  $179.10? 

Mr.  Jones:  We  never  got  regulated,  or  got  this  arrange- 
ment in  effect  until  about — Oh,  I  guess  it  has  been  six  months 
ago  that  we  got  down  to  where  we  could  handle  it  as  we  wished. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  done  by  the  organization  there  ? 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes, 

Mr.  Sheean:     Of  which  you  are  chairman? 

Mr.  Jones :     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Of  having  the  man  lay  off  after  he  has  earned 
$179.10? 

Mr.  Jones :  We  try  to  arrange  it  so  he  cannot  make  more 
than  that ;  we  put  other  men  on  the  run.  Instead  of  having  seven 
men,  we  would  put  in  eight  men,  if  we  should  see  that  the  mileage 
was  going  to  increase. 

Mr.  Sheean :  That  is  what  I  mean,  Mr.  Jones ;  by  increasing 
the  size  of  the  board  f 

Mr.  Jones :     By  increasing  the  number  of  men  employed. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Increasing  the  number  of  men  employed? 

Mr.  Jones :    Yes. 


883 

Mr.  Sheean:  And  that  is  i)lactHl  entirely  in  the  hands  of. 
the  organization? 

Mr.  Jones:  Well,  now,  you  understand,  that  it  must  be 
approved  by  the  oflQcers.    I  can  make  the  requests-  ; 

Mr.  Sheean :     Yes,  I  understand  that. 

Mr.  Jones :  — and  show  the  Master  Mechanic  where  there 
is  another  man  should  go  into  this  pool  in  order  to  keep  the  men 
in  service,  but  if  he  don't  want  to  make  the  arrangement  he 
don't  have  to,  but  he  always  has. 

Mr.  Sheean:  How  many  trips  on  that  run  does  it  take  to 
make  this  $179.10? 

Mr.  Jones :     It  pays  $8.24  each  way  over  the  division. 

Mr.  Sheean:    $8.24?  '   . 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  for  ten  hours  and  forty  minutes  service, 
not  counting  preparatory  time.  There  is  an  hour  there  you  can 
figure;  fifty  minutes  and  ten  minutes,  that  is  eleven  hours  and 
forty  minutes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  From  the  hour  that  you  start  in,  at  6 :35  did 
you  say  in  the  morning? 

Mr.  Jones:  You  would  be  on  duty  then  at  5:35.  That  is 
when  y^ou  would  go  on  duty,  but  you  would  be  paid  from  6:35. 

Mr.  Sheean:     6:35  is  the  time  to  leave? 

Mr.  Jones:    Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:    What  time  are  you  released? 

Mr.  Jones :  If  you  made  the  trip  without  getting  overtime, 
you  would  necessarily  get  in  about  4:35,  or  5:15;  you  would  be 
relieved  at  5:25. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Relieved  at  5:25  in  the  afternoon? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:     Being  ready  to  leave  at  6:35  in  the  morning T 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 

Mr.  Sheean:  On  the  run  which  you  have  described  here,' 
there  is  paid  to  the  engineer  $8.24? 

Mr.  Jones :     For  that  service,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  made  every  day  when,  as  you  say,  busi- 
ness was  good ;  it  has  sometimes  been  made  running  in  one  di- 
rection one  day  and  back  in  the  other  direction  the  next  day  ? 

Mr.  Jones:  You  couldn't  run  every  day  on  that  division, 
because  you  couldn't  always  get  in  under  the  Hours  of  Service 


884 

Law  and  get  your  rest;  and  il'  you  could,  you  couldn't  stand  it 
anyway. 

Mr.  ISlieean:  At  the  time  this  proposition  was  presented, 
Mr,  Jones,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  men  on  that  line  were  earn- 
ing regularly  about  $200  a  month  or  more  ? 

Mr.  Jones :     About  $200  a  month,  yes. 

Mr.  Sheean :  And  it  is  since  you  have  presented  the  claims 
here,  that  the  arrangement  has  been  made  with  your  local  there 
to  keep  the  earnings  down  to  $179.10? 

Mr.  Jones:  No,  we  hadn't  that  in  view  at  all.  It  was  to 
furnish  employment  for  as  many  of  our  members  as  we  could, 
and  to  divide  the  work  up  in  dull  times. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  did  not  menu  anything  by  the  particular 
language  I  used,  Mr.  Jones. 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes,  I  understand. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But. during  dull  times  you  keep  it  down  to 
$179.10,  and  during  the  times  as  they  existed  when  this  schedule 
was  presented,  the  men  were  earning  about  $200  a  month  on  that 
run? 

Mr.  Jones :  Well,  they  Avould  earn  that  much,  if  the  busi- 
ness was  there.  If  the  work  was  there  for  them  they  could  earn 
that  much.    They  would  have  that  opportunity. 

Mr.  Sheean :  At  the  time  that  this  presentation  was  made, 
the  operations  at  about  that  time  were  such  that  the  men  were 
earning  on  this  run  about  $200  a  month,  that  is  the  engineers? 

Mr.  Jones:  As  I  understand  you,  you  seem  to  think  that 
this  western  wage  movement  had  something  to  do  with  our  regu- 
lating our  crews  to  keep  the  wages  down. 

Mr.  Sheean:     No. 

Mr.  Jones :  It  did  not,  because  we  have  men  today,  in  the 
face  of  all  this,  who,  if  you  took  the  bridle  off  and  let  them  go, 
they  would  make  $300  a  month  if  it  was  possible  to  do  so.  Of 
course,  they  could  not,  but  if  it  was  possible,  they  would  work 
until  they  fell  off  their  engines,  probably. 

Mr.  Sheean:  What  I  want  to  get  at,  Mr.  Jones,  is  that 
under  the  present  situation,  or  in  times  of  distress,  when  you 
limit  the  amount  that  a  man  shall  make,  you  limit  the  man  on 
this  run  to  $179.10;  while,  in  the  conditions  that  did  exist  at 
about  the  time  that  the  claims  were  presented,  they  were  earning 
at  that  time  about  $200  a  month? 


4 


885 

Mr.  Jones :    Yes,  sir,  about  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:    And,  for  some  time  previous  to  that,  that 
was  about  what  they  were  earning  there  ? 

Mr.   Jones:     Well,  it  would  not  run  over  $200,  I  don^t 
think. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Would  you  think  that  was  about  a  fair  aver- 
age? ^  _^  ,. 

Mr.  Jones :  I  know  that  is  what  we  tried  to  establish,  the 
engineers  have  tried  to  get  that  up  somewhere  near  $200  a 
month,  without  killing  them.  You  understand,  take  it  in  my 
position,  I  am  forty  years  of  age  and  have  run  an  engine  eighteen 
years.  Now,  under  the  rules  of  the  company,  my  record  is  clear, 
but  if  I  were  dismissed  tomorrow,  or  if  I  run  along  success- 
fully for  five  years  more  and  then  am  dismissed,  my  prospect  for 
a  job  is  no  good,  I  cannot  get  one.  The  men  realize  that,  and 
they  try  to  make  all  the  money  they  possibly  can  during  the. 
period  they  are  working,  in  order  to  protect  themselves  for  this ' 
time  when  they  may  be  taken  out  of  the  service,  fired  at  an  age 
where  it  is  impossible  for  them  to  engage  in,  or,  to  learn  any 
other  business  by  which  they  can  earn  a  living. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Mr.  Jones,  when  you  spoke  of  the  places  where 
meals  now  are  charged  for  at  35  cents,  where  formerly  they  were 
25  cents,  are  those  railroad  restaurants  that  you  speak  of? 

Mr.  Jones:  No,  on  that  division  the  railroads  don't  fur- 
nish us  meals.    It  is  private  concerns. 

Mr.  Sheean:  It  is  the  same  about  the  beds  that  you, spoke 
of  here?  .'^'.-^ 

Mr.  Jones:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean :     The  places  that  you  lodge  ?  ,   i 

Mr.  Jones:    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sheean:  So  that  what  you  have  described  about  the 
change  in  meals,  about  how  much  there  was  in  a  25  cent  meal 
now,  is  by  comparison  with  what  there  was  in  1910,  as  you  found 
it,  in  your  dealings  with  restaurant  keepers  and  hotel  keepers? 

Mr.  Jones:    Well,  yes.    You  see  we  have  had  the  same  bill 
of  fare  for  the  last  twenty  years.    It  is  roast  beef,  boiled  beef ' 
and  so  forth.  -'  ^'''■-  -'  "'-  = ''' 

Mr.  Sheean:     Just  when  was  it  that  you  paid  the  extra  ten^ 
cents  for  pie  and — what  was  the  other  thing  you  spoke  of,  with" 


886 

the  25  cent  meal,  instead  of  having  dessert  and  something  else, 
what  was  that — 

Mr.  Jones:     Soup.  , 

Mr.  Sheean:     When  did  they  make  that  change? 

Mr.  Jones:  I  noticed  it  a  year  ago,  when  I  was  in  Dunsmuir 
a  year  ago. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Are  you  sure  that  that  change  was  not  made 
prior  to  the  time  of  the  last  concerted  movement,  as  to  this 
25  cent  meal,  changing  it  to  a  35  cent  meal  ? 

Mr.  Jones:  I  could  not  say  as  to  that;  I  do  not  know,  but 
that  is  the  first  time  I  had  noticed  that  this  extra  charge  had 
been  added.  They  might  have  added  one  part  of  it  at  that  time 
and  the  last  part  this  time.  I  don't  know  when  it  was.  I  have 
been  at  home  for  the  last  three  years. 

Mr.  Sheean:    How  is  that? 

Mr.  Jones:  I  have  been  at  home  for  the  past  three  years, 
you  may  say,  on  this  helper  run,  and  I  have  not  been  running 
around  the  country  very  much. 

Mr.  Sheean:  I  was  wondering,  Mr.  Jones,  whether  you 
knew  whether  or  not  this  change  in  the  price  of  meals  from  25 
to  35  cents,  had  taken  place  before  the  submission  of  evidence  to 
the  arbitrators  in  1910  ? 

Mr.  Jones:     I  don't  know  about  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Or,  whether  that  has  occurred  since  that 
time. 

Mr.  Jones:  You  understand  that  extra  charge  is  made  for 
things  you  need,  that  you  necessarily  need  to  eke  out  an  exist- 
ence. 

Mr.  Sheean:  All  I  was  getting  at  is,  when  the  change  or 
shift  was  made. 

Mr.  Jones:    I  could  not  say  as  to  that. 

Mr.  Sheean:    Probably  1909  or  1910? 

Mr.  Jones:     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Or,  w^hether  the  arbitrators  who  allowed  the 
increase  in  wages  in  1910  had  any  presentation  of  such  changed 
cost  of  meals  to  them  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Jones:     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Sheean :     That  is  all. 


887 

RE-DIRECT  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Stone:  Mr.  Jones,  referring  back  to  that  increase  in 
meals,  do  you  think  the  arbitrators  who  gave  the  award  in 
1910,  knew  that  those  Chink  restaurants  were  out  on  the  Shasta 
Division  1 

Mr.  Jones :  I  could  not  say  whether  they  had  any  knowl- 
edge of  them  being  out  there  or  not. 

Mr.  Stone:  I  believe  you  said  that  this  present  wage 
movement  had  nothing  whatever  to  do  with  the  fact  that  you  put 
more  men  in  the  pool  service  and  reduced  wages  down  to  $179. 

Mr.  Jones :     No,  sir,  it  was  simply  done  to  have  the  men — 

Mr.  Stone:  Simply  Christian  charity,  trying  to  help  the 
other  fellow  along  until  business  again  becomes  normal? 

Mr.  Jones :  Also,  it  is  agreeable  to  the  company.  They 
want  to  retain  these  men  in  the  service  and  have  them  when 
business  picks  up,  if  it  ever  does.    It  may. 

Mr.  Stone:  During  that  time  after  you  were  smothered 
with  the  gas  coming  out  of  that  tunnel,  the  three  or  four  days 
you  were  coming  back  to  life,  did  the  company  pay  you  anything 
for  it? 

Mr.  Jones:     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Simply  complimented  you  and  said  you  had  a 
splendid  heart  action? 

Mr.  Jones :     The  doctor  did. 

Mr.  Stone:  That  was  the  only  thing  that  brought  yon 
through,  was  it  not,  the  fact  that  you  had  a  splendid  heart 
action  ? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone:  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  senior  men  on  those 
two  seniority  districts,  take  the  south  end  just  as  fast  as  their 
seniority  will  let  them  go  down  there  ? 

Mr.  Jones :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Is  it  not  also  a  fact  that  your  hair  will  be  much 
grayer  than  it  is  now,  before  you  will  be  old  enough  to  bid  one 
of  the  better  jobs  on  the  South  District? 

Mr.  Jones :    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :  Did  I  understand  you  to  say,  that  in  your  pre- 
paratory time  you  act  as  your  own  hostler,  taking  your  engine 
out  of  the  house  ? 


888 


Mr,  Joues: 
Mr.  Stone: 
Jones : 
Stone : 


Mr 
Mr 
ready  ? 

Mr.  Jones : 
Mr.  Stone: 
Mr.  Jones : 
Mr.  Stone : 


I  do. 

So  you  act  as  a  hostler? 

Yes,  sir. 

You  put  in  fifty  minutes  to  an  hour  getting 


Yes,  sir. 

For  which  you  receive  no  pay  f 
No,  sir. 

Suppose  you  were  to  bid  one  of  those  runs,  and 
go  down  on  the  other  division,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  some  other 
man  would  have  to  go  through  exactly  what  you  are  describing? 
Mr.  Jones :     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :     There  would  be  some  other  man  in  those  tun- 
nels smothering  and  breathing  hot  air  through  a  respirator? 
Mr.  Jones:     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stone :     Is  it  not  a  fact  that  in  case  they  do  build  this 
cut-off  and  cut  out  these  tunnels,  that  there  are  still  other  tunnels 
that  engineers  will  have  to  go  through f 
Mr.  Jones :     Oh,  yes,  no  doubt  of  that. 
Mr.  Stone:     I  think  that  is  all,  Mr.  Jones. 

Rp]-CEOSS  EXAMINATION. 

Mr.  Slieean :  I  just  wanted  to  ask  a  question  or  two.  When 
you  spoke  of  not  being  paid  for  your  preparatory  work  that 
you  did  in  preparing  your  engine,  you  mean  that  you  are  not 
paid  separately  for  that,  and  unless  it  is  included  in  the  $8.24, 
that  you  get  no  special  pay  for  that? 

Mr.  Jones :  Yes,  sir.  We  do  not  make  any  notation  of  this 
time  that  we  are  preparing  the  engines.  If  I  am  called  for  6 :35 
A.  M.,  in  making  out  my  trip  report,  I  make  no  mention  of 
being  down  there  thirty  or  forty  minutes.  I  say:  *' Called  at 
6 :35  A.  M.,  departed  at  6 :35. "     ' 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Jones,  isn't  it  good  practice,  in  your 
judgment,  that  an  engineer  should  know  about  the  condition 
of  his  engine,  inspect  it,  and  if  satisfied — 

Mr.  Jones:  I  think  it  is  absolutely  necessary.  I  would 
not  want  somebody  to  inspect  my  engine,  and  I  would  not  want 
somebody  to  try  my  air  brake,  and  then  go  out  and  have  a  col- 
lision before  I  left  the  yard;  but  I  don't  think  it  is  right  to  do 
that  work  without  compensation.    That  was  the  question. 


889 

Mr.  Sheean:  But,  in  the  buildiug  up  of  rates,  whatever 
the  rates  are,  they  have  been  built  upon  the  theory  that  part  of 
this  work  also  was,  as  it  always  has  been,  the  inspection  of  the 
engine,  and  the  trying  out  of  his  air,  and  the  preliminaries  pre- 
paratory to  a  road  trip. 

Mr.  Jones:  That  has  been  considered  by  the  company,  I 
suppose,  as  a  part  of  the  duties  of  an  engineer.  If  we  do  that 
without  additional  compensation  there  is  no  telling  where  it 
would  stop,  how  much  more  we  would  have  to  do. 

Mr.  Sheean:  Mr.  Jones,  there  have  been,  even  in  your 
eighteen  years  of  experience  as  an  engineer,  a  very  material  les- 
sening and  shortening  up  of  the  duties  that  engineers  of  the  old 
days  performed,  havc>;.'t  there  1 

Mr.  Jones:     No,  I  cannot  say  that  there  have. 

Mr.  Sheean :  On  your  system,  have  there  been  any  changes 
at  all  as  to  the  relief  of  engineers,  for  light  running,  setting  up 
wedges,  or  anything  of  that  kind  ? 

Mr.  Jones :  Engines  nowadays  are  to  pull  cars,  they  are  no- 
body's  friends  today.    All  they  are  for  is  to  pull  cars. 

Mr.  Sheean:  But  in  the  old  days,  Mr.  Jones,  it  was  a  fact, 
wasn't  it,  that  some  of  the  things  which  I  have  mentioned,  were 
done  by  the  old  time  engineers? 

Mr.  Jones:  Yes,  they  were,  years  ago  before  they  com- 
menced building  large  engines. 

Mr.  Sheean:  As  a  necessary  and  proper  part  of  the  work 
of  running  an  engine  on  the  road,  the  seeing  that  supplies  are 
on  the  engine,  the  seeing  that  the  air  works,  the  seeing  that  the 
injector  works,  and  the  knowledge  that  your  engine  is  in  good 
condition,  is  a  necessary  and  proper  part  of  the  engineer's  day's 
work,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Jones:  For  the  protection  of  the  company,  the  public 
and  the  engineers,  it  is,  and  I  think  he  should  be  paid  for  that 
inspection. 

Mr.  Sheean:  When  these  rates  have  been  agreed  upon 
through  all  these  years  that  you  have  had  any  knowledge  of 
the  practical  operation  of  railroads,  there  has  been  included  in 
the  engineer's  day's  work  as  a  necessary  incident  to  a  run,  this 
work  that  you  speak  of;  he  has  done  that  and  sometimes  more 
than  that? 

Mr.  Jones:     Yes. 


890 


Mr.  Sbeean:    But  always  has  done  that,  hasn't  he? 

Mr.  Jones:  I  understand  on  some  roads  they  don't  do  it. 
Your  engine  is  there  on  the  train  and  you  come  down  and  take 
your  engine.  I  know  when  I  was  working  at  Denver,  we  used 
to  leave  our  engine — that  has  been  twenty  years  ago — we  used 
to  drive  our  engine  into  the  Union  Depot,  leave  our  engine  there 
at  the  Union  Depot  and  go  off  like  a  gentleman,  and  come  down 
next  day  at  1 :30  and  find  the  engine  on  the  train  all  ready  to  go. 

Mr.  Sheean :  Do  I  understand,  Mr.  Jones,  your  position  to 
be,  that  for  the  protection  of  the  company,  the  protection  of  the 
public,  and  the  protection  of  the  engineer,  that  the  engineer  who 
is  going  out  on  a  run  should  make  no  inspection  to  see  whether 
things  are  in  proper  order? 

Mr.  Jones :     Oh,  no. 

Mr.  Sheean :  You  think  that  that  is  and  should  be  a  proper 
preliminary  part  of  his  work?  I  don't  want  to  debate  the  ques- 
tion, Mr.  Jones,  whether  he  should  be  separately  paid  for  it,  but 
simply  to  ascertain  your  view  as  to  whether  that  is  a  proper  and 
necessary  part  of  an  engineer's  work. 

Mr.  Jones:  When  you  walk  around  an  engine  behind  an 
inspector  that  may  have  had  no  experience  at  all,  knows  nothing 
about  locomotives  at  all,  and  find  defects  that  he  has  overlooked, 
that  would  cause  an  engine  failure  or  accident,  it  would  appear 
that  it  is  absolutely  necessary  for  my  own  protection,  and  tho 
company's  protection,  and  the  protection  of  the  traveling  public, 
for  me  to  inspect  that  engine  and  to  know  that  she  was  in  condi- 
tion to  make  the  trip. 

The  Chairman:  Will  you  please  suspend,  Mr.  Sheeau.  We 
will  adjourn  here  until  10  o'clock  tomorrow  morning. 

(Whereupon,  at  5  o'clock  P.  M.,  an  adjournment  was  taken 
until  10  o'clock  A.  M.,  December  11,  1914.) 


I 


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